OK! My "Seabiscuit" audience had "Dead Silence."....when

[KoKo]

The stock market crashed and the ramifications were unfolding. The audience I had last night.....went into TOTAL, DEAD SILENCE!

It was an older audience (the kids were into the other "first releases" so this was the "Seabiscuit Audience" who were going by "word of the mouth" .....and we wanted to see a "Quality Film" and we are very "selective" at this point.

AND........when Seabiscuit wins his races there is no "cheering and audience approval".......it's quiet...but there are "tears glistening on faces....and stoicism........and in general...."muted reactions."

Which says to me: Our "Oldies" and "Middies" are in a state of "silence" and waiting....but have in their hearts from Grandparents.....the "GREAT DEPRESSION!" and they are scared out of their minds........and "Seabiscuit" struck a huge "cord" of awareness.... One couldn't "clap and shout" when she won....because one remembered the hard times America had gone through in the past...and we are waiting and watching....and "celebrity, sports, emotionalism doesn't do it for us at this point." We are too wary......from past bad experience!

We left the "cheering and shouting" when the races were won....to those who are behind us.....who don't know. the dark side...the ramifications of "stock market crashes....job losses...and total economic collapse.....

They could cheer.....but we were silent.....with tears streaming down our faces"....for what America "doesn't know."

Seabiscuit is an important movie. Most of all....it's entertaining to the PBS/NPR and "Dems who Supported Gore" crowd.......but as entertainment....it only reached those who were open minded enough to crasp the implications..

Just my 2 Cents......here.....observations....whatever.

koko

Edited: for him to her...viewer complaints......

[blm]

1. Dennis Kucinich.

'nuff said.

[madrchsod]

2. yes i think you`re right.

although my family didn`t suffer as greatly as others times were still bad. i`ve been thru a few of these downturns but this is the worst. yes there are all of us older kids of depression area parents and grandparents in our late 40`s and 50`s that understand what is happening..but we have no one to assure us.."the only thing we have to fear - is fear itself " . the fear we have is our own leaders disconect with the people

[RichM]

3. Can someone explain to me what stock-market crashes have to do with

"Seabiscuit" (which I realize is a current movie about a horse), and Dennis Kucinich? Pretty please?

I have no idea what's being talked about here.

[diplomats]

6. I'm not sure about the link to Kucinich

but the movie occurs during the Depression, and David McCullough narrates the historical background. Seabiscuit was an undersized horse who came out of nowhere in 1938 to capture the imagination of millions (and beat Triple Crown winner War Admiral). He was a true underdog who reached the pinnacle top after a tough life - the perfect metaphor for Americans struggling in the '30s. (BTW, I saw the movie today and absolutely loved it.)

[blm]

16. The underdog factor....

.

[RainDog]

7. some people want to associate Kucinich

with Seabiscuit...as in long shots can and do win.

Seabiscuit became a symbol of hope for lots and lots of Americans during the Great Depression.

The owner of the horse played this up by noting that Seabiscuit had been discounted and when he was given a chance, he could do great things.

This was meant to be a message to those who had been destroyed by the republican economy of the thirties.

btw, Dubya has the worse job creation record during his term of office save for one...Hoover.

[KoKo]

11. There was a deeper meaning....Roosevelt and the "New Deal." None of you

got it?

That was my point in this post......"oldies and middies" know......what Roosevelt and "New Deal" were about because of the times they grew up in.

That's why they had tears streaming........

Do some "Googles' on "NEW DEAL." It's amazing what you will find.

But, maybe you have already.........and don't understand what it was about???? :shrug:

[diplomats]

13. My cousin saw it last week

and told me practically everyone in the audience was a senior citizen. There aren't many movies today older people can relate to but this certainly is one. I loved the clips of Roosevelt; this film made me really proud of my party's heritage as the party of the people.

[MUAD_DIB]

22. Now all we get is the

RAW DEAL! Thank you Emperor Chimp.

Bush is the Reincarnation of Hoover.


My parents, 72 and 73 this year, impressed in all of their kids the hards times that were the Great Depression.

My dad's family was sooooooo poor that they couldn't even pay attention.

[RichM]

27. Bush is NOT the 'reincarnation of Hoover.' Terribly unfair to Hoover to

claim this. Hoover was an unusually intelligent & able man -- hardworking, accomplished, & with considerable personal integrity. One could perhaps compare him to Bushler in terms of his commitment to serving the plutocracy. But he was in NO WAY a gangster, murderer, war criminal, liar, warmonger, or ignorant buffoon, like Bushler is.

Hoover was wrong in subscribing to a widely-held political philosophy of his time -- the idea that laissez-faire capitalism would lead to good results for society generally. But this historic mistake did not stem from malice or sadism. It is a great insult to him, to compare him in any overall sense to Bush. Bush isn't worth the mud on Hoover's shoes.

[MUAD_DIB]

29. Historic mistake?

Then any Neocon could argue that *, if he is ever brought to trial for his crimes, was only guilty of making heroic mistakes.

[JCMach1]

32. No, Hoover actually had a brain and some ability...

He inherited Harding and Coolidge's mess.

Bush trashed a booming economy and has the brain of a pea.

[RainDog]

4. saw it with my kids

and they both loved it. the younger one noted there were lots of older people there. I said, yeah, well, Lara Croft isn't exactly marketed to them...

but when the stock market mess was on the screen, I had to stop myself from shouting out "Hello George Bush" -- I didn't because my kids were with me and I didn't want to embarrass them.

but people also clapped when War Admiral lost and when the movie was over.

the movie is also framed in such a way to appeal to a more thoughful audience because the biggest rah rah moment is the War Admiral thing.

the end, which defies conventional wisdom about screen writing, btw, goes into slo-mo and the voice over from McGuire about the "journey" all took via their relationship with Seabiscuit and each other.

ending on a thoughtful note seemed, to me, to be the filmmakers' attempt to say..hey, we're serious here, and there are life lessons in this movie.

unlike most movie fare, unless you think The Terminator is a realistic role model. Bring it on, Dubya? how many soldiers have died since you uttered that asinine statement?

[TruthIsAll]

5. Very good ( I felt the same) except for one fact: Seabiscuit was a HE...

...great movie.

[KoKo]

8. I just corrected: Her to Him.........thanks.

:-)'s

[Fescue4u]

9. A *Spolier* warning

would have been nice

[KoKo]

10. Spoiler Warning? What???? Who gave away any endings, LOL's ????????

No endings here....Seabiscuit is the story itself.....with anyone doing a "Google" or who read the book knowing that it's the the "evolution of Seabiscuit" and the races winning and losing that are the point of the story.

The climax of the movie is not the "race" that is the defining point! No spoilers here.............funny, you would try to say that...... and the publicity already gave the "race outcome."

No...no spoiler here. :-)

[kcwayne]

12. A major chord indeed

My grandparents (on both sides of my family) were farmers at the onset of the Great Depression. Both lost their farms, one became a tenant farmers and the other became migrant workers.

I remember my grandmother telling me about travelling through Dallas looking for work and camping in a labor camp. She said that in order for their husbands to get work, many of the women would have sex with the crew boss. She had a stern and pained look on her face, and my reading between the lines said she had subjected herself to this.

My other grandfather had a heart attack, and was unable to run the tenant farm because of his health. He became a part time street car operator, and used public assistence to provide food and occasional clothing for my mom and grandmother.

The events left both families in a state of poverty that they never escaped from.

When I saw Seabiscuit, the visualization of the depression brought back the memories of my family's hardships, and gave me a deep forboding of what will happen to my own family as we progress to economic disaster.

My biggest problem is that I don't have good ideas for what could be done to avoid what appears to be inevitable. Unlike all other downturns we have had in our country, a new technology or social force cannot be the salvation of our economic crises. The American workforce has become too costly in the world marketplace, and the dynamic of capitalism is obsoleting us.

We can no longer manufacture products here, and engineering, finance, and back office support is being outsourced overseas at increasing and alarming rates. The only thing we can do in this country is serve each other food, and sell each other goods made in a foreign country with what amounts to slave labor.

At least in the era depicted by Seabiscuit, there was hope that things would change, and good reason to believe they would. In our great depression, how dangerous will our society become as more and more people come to realize that the loss of income producing opportunity is a permanent change?

[RainDog]

14. there ARE things we can do

running a huge deficit by the federal govt is a terrible idea...and is exacerbated by the tax cuts Bush has given to the richest of the rich

and the way Bush gave them. If he wanted to stimulate the economy, rather than reward the fat cats, he would have enacted a payroll tax cut, which would have reached across the board.

other things which can be done are things like having need based social security payments for retirees. there is no reason Bill Gates' dad, for instance, needs to draw social security...you get the idea.

another thing is to make corporations accountable for things like Enron. make Arthur Anderson accountable for their crooked bookkeeping.

instead of giving away the idea of Commonwealth in this nation, our govt can tax the richest of the rich.

I'm not talking about the middle class here.

as far as personal action...it would be good to learn how to garden, if you don't already.

rent videos from the library, instead of paying to rent from blockbuster.

buy from yard sales instead of stores.

invest in energy savings if you own, or ask your landlord to let you do so for a break in rent..it will make the place more valuable.
some things like insulation are tax deductible for some state income taxes...have to find out what your state does.

take money that you save and make sure you pay off as much debt as you can, if you have any.

find ways you can barter your skills with someone else's to do things you all need...you might want to start a local, neighborhood group for this purpose.

when you do shop in stores, support your local economy as much as possible by buying at locally owned stores. the national economy and your local economy are two different things, sometimes, and you can help maintain your community by putting money back into it.

go out and register voters who will oust Bush.

[KoKo]

17. Good Points Raindog.....seems you as well as I and others listened to

the warnings of our "grandparents."

It may come to "Survival of the fittest." Hoard those "Un-Genetically modified seeds" and buy one of those "home Canning Pots" at a garage sale or at "Thrift Stores" because we may need to "reconnect" with the "wisdom" of the past if we want to survive.......and I don't mean to be "dark here."

But we should learn from "past civilizations" and not be "cocky." Inspite of what the "Financial Onlines, Cables, Mags, Zines "tell us.........listen to the "lessons of the past" and be better prepared that the damn "duct tape" Asscroft/PNAC recomments. Survive.......we can do it.......with little effort...........just in case...

And the "Oldies" know.

[sendero]

18. I'm thinking....

.... the same way. I've been taking steps to prepare for a serious and protracted downturn in the economy. I'm not buying anything I don't *really* need, and I moved ALL of my assets out of the stock and bond markets.

If it doesn't happen, that will be *great*. But the warning signs are everywhere IMHO. We are on a precipice because of a combination of bad government management of the economy, and a collective over-use of debt, and a failure to understand and respect money for what it can and cannot do.

I don't think too much of the Boy Scout's organization, but their motto is useful. Be prepared. :)

[kcwayne]

19. Agreed

I agree with many of your points, but most of these things address managing finances and resources. Management assumes that there are surpluses and deficits that can be tuned to provide a positive effect on society. Management is futile when the deficits overwhelm the surpluses.

The real question in my mind, is what investment is feasible in the US that would generate long term economic benefit. In the Great Depression, the country had to be electrified, a national road system was needed, and there were numerous infrastructure construction projects (Hoover Dam, and many others) that provided jobs during the building process, and continuous economic benefits followed.

Playing with wealth distribution though taxes, reigning in corporate fraud, government budgets, et al are only actions that stir the pot. The problem is the pot is evaporating, and our national leadership is void of ideas that could re-energize our economic infrastructure. We need a New Deal for a new century more than we need techniques for managing our shrinking pie. Its either that, or get used to living in an tenement with 8 other families, and earning $250 bucks per month in some work camp.

[RainDog]

23. there are plenty of things to be done here

to stimulate local economies.

for one thing, renewable energy.

things to break the oil addiction, and thus our meddling in other country's affairs. we prop up the Saudi monarchy to keep them in power so that we have access to their oil.

terrorism is about more than economics, but one way to defang and stop recruiting terrorists is to stop funding their corrupt govts.

I realize it's more complicated than that...the very complicated Israeli/Palastine question, for instance.

however, one reason Bush wanted to invade Iraq was so that he could pull our soldiers out of the base we built in S.A. as a result of the first Gulf War.

bin Laden claimed as one grievance the fact that "infidels" from America were parked in holy muslim land.

now, Bush doesn't want to appear to be appeasing the terrorists, but that's one big issue behind the invasion of Iraq..beyond the oil and the position in the middle east. Bush and his gang thought they were going to be able to put their puppet, Chalabi, in place just like they put the Shah in place in Iran.

...they didn't learn from that past mistake either.

So, energy is a HUGE source of potential employment which will be used in America, for Americans...and for the rest of the world, too, except that the rest of the world doesn't use nearly the amount of energy that we do.

thinking about becoming a person, rather than a consumer, is a good way to start looking at life.

building houses, ala habitat for humanity, is a way to help empower ourselves and others.

rather than thinking of yourself as a potential employee of a giant corporation, how can you participate in your local economy?

how can you help to develop your community?

if you grow a garden in my city, you can plant a row for the hungry and give this produce to the local food bank at the Farmer's Mkt every Saturday.

these are ways to rethink economics on a personal level.

if corporations are taking income out of this country, then you can respond by putting income into your community..

can you open a small biz? can you co-op with others to make a small biz?

those are the ways to think, for me, which do not feed the repuke beast.

[kcwayne]

30. Energy is a good example

Suppose that we could use 1 billion a week of public money developing an alternative source of energy (as opposed to occupying Iraq). (Here is the absurdity of the Administration's position... we can always find this kind of money to divert into military exercises, but if we spend our money on ourselves, the Republican's go ballistic)

Lets say (hypothetically) that we develop a cost efficient generator that is installed in individual premises, and replaces the need for centralized electric utilities. Lets further fantasize that the generator runs on water, and produces no ecological side effects.

The current government's philosophy would transfer the technology to private enterprise, rationalizing that they would be the most efficient at building the business, and that government should not be in this business to begin with.

Immediately, the private enterprise would move manufacturing, engineering, and support of this generator to China to lower the cost of the unit. Of course if the private enterprise was a utility company, the technology would be surpressed because it would require write off of expensive electrical production and distribution facilities they currently have in operation.

For reasons such as this, public money cannot be effectively spent on developing technology that no individual company can afford to do on their own.

However, suppose that we adopted a philosophy that we must use our vast resources as a competitive tool, and empower societal investment in major projects that will provide us with technology or infrastructure that we can use to generate wealth and health for our citizens. In this case, the generator should be owned by the nation, and profits from its sale, technology licensing, and manufacturing should be returned to the nation. The return could come in the form of lower taxes, services (such as health care), or reinvestment in additional projects.

Massive technologies like this spawn entire sub-industries, and it would be the government's aim to create as many of these as possible to ensure that we have a viable economy that can withstand the onslaught we face from slave labor countries that our free enterprise system has enabled. Free enterprise has enabled them with our technology, and through taxation, we the public have built infrastructure that allowes free enterprise to efficiently distribute products within our country. China, India, and other slave labor countries have not born the expense of this infrastructure, and pay no taxes to insure its survival, and hence are free loaders on the backs of American taxpayers.

The problem with the proposal for government spending on such things, with the profits being distributed back to the nation is that it is a central idea of communism, which has no saleability in Western countries. But I think it is an idea that needs consideration given the alternative, which is the total dislocation of our economy as companies continue to flee to areas of the world where they can pay $100 per month for 250 hours of work, and not be subject to the labor, environment, and fair practices demanded by operation in the US.

If we don't do something, all large blocks of capital will flee the country, and we will lose the ability to make such investments in the future.

[RainDog]

33. again, think small

there are ways to develop self-sufficiency so that what the corporations do cannot hurt you as much.

can you work together with others in your area to utilize EXISTING renewable energy for yourself?

Solar, wind, straw bale housing... corn-fed stoves for heat.

you can get books from the library, or magazines which teach people about using these things.

find out if your local utlity does energy consumption averaging. if not, work to get them to do so.

that way, you bank credit for times when you can use solar energy, etc.

if you get really good at this, you can sell energy to your neighbors.

you have to think about small, localized ways to make life sustainable, no matter what the corporations do.

think globally, act locally, remember?

some cities are even issuing "script" which can be used at local bizzes to operate off the grid of the power structure.

it's an interesting way to think about life, and one which the corporate media will not go into very much.

where I live, we have a volunteer-powered community radio station..in addition to public radio ala PBS, etc.

I rarely ever listen to corporate radio. instead, I contribute to keep this radio station running.

in return they play a variety of music, good music, which promotes musicians who may not make the mainstream playlist. when I buy a cd, I go to my independent cd store owner in town to buy cds from these artists who may record on their own or on an independent label.

this is an "economy" which exists outside of mainstream radio.

I happen to think this "economy" is more interesting than the corporate economy, as far as radio goes, and my life is enriched by exposure to good music.

that's my little example. other people probably have better ones.

[SharonAnn]

20. Bush could've helped by spending on jobs and infrastructure in

the united States. We're running a deficit becauase of a tax cut, most of which goes to people who will invest outside the US. We're running a deficit because of outrageous spending on the military industrial complex for new weapons, but not on the people in the military or veterans. Running a deficit and getting nothing for it but more and more debt.

Every time there's a way to do something, Bush finds a way to line the pockets of his friends and screw the rest of us.

[KoKo]

26. Yes, our bridges and roads and even our schools have been on "death watch"

even during Clinton. But to "Balance the Budget" (which was a good thing after Reagan/Poppy...Clinton chose to not invest in those projects during his administration).

But, I remember all the articles in Newspapers and even when the Networks used to do "real investigative" reports that our bridges all over the US were in dire need of repair. And schools in big cities like NYC are still using "steam bilers" to heat their delapidated, asbestos filled buildings. During the "Bubble" no one wanted to focus on it....too much money to be made and all of us were in a "tech frenzy."

But, just as Roosevelt did, a big "Public Works Project" should be undertaken to employ engineers, those with "city planning degrees" and that might take up some of our tech folks with CAD training and other skills to impliment.

The Bush's have NO VISION......Never had, and never will. Poppy Bush lost because of the "VISION THING"....as he called it. He said "I don't need that "vision thing.." but without it we are a weak country and lose what has always been the best of America.......VISION!

[donco6]

31. I would disagree with one point.

"take money that you save and make sure you pay off as much debt as you can, if you have any."

I would recommend eliminating any *uncollateralized* debt, but not home debt. With the low interest rates, you're not doing yourself any favor by sticking cash in a bank (0.9% interest, versus the amount you save in tax deductions, no comparison). Get a low-interest, fixed rate loan refinancing, if you haven't already.

[RainDog]

34. yes and no

lock into a fixed rate mortgage, for sure.

but is the tax write off from the interest on your home loan better than paying off that loan earlier?

don't most people end up paying three times what their house is worth by holding a conventional mtg?

if you own the home outright, or make additional payments to decrease the length of your mtg, you don't have to work to pay the bank for the right to live in the house you bought.

most people cannot pay off a mtg anyway, but they can pay down on it.

if the housing mkt is another bubble which bursts, it's also possible that housing will devalue. therefore, the money you're paying for your house will be even greater than its value.

live below your means is the whole issue, ultimately.

that way you "bank" hours which you would have to give to work to pay for your way of life and can use them to do fun things.

why be a wage slave?

[RichM]

15. Very interesting post. I especially appreciate this line -

"We can no longer manufacture products here, and engineering, finance, and back office support is being outsourced overseas at increasing and alarming rates. The only thing we can do in this country is serve each other food, and sell each other goods made in a foreign country with what amounts to slave labor..."

The story about your grandparents is pretty interesting, as well. Thanks!

[KoKo]

25. Good Points... kcwayne, thanks much for your sharing....It's Hope and

Sharing....that come out of that movie. We are very "selfish" now.....Hardship brings sharing...

We aren't into that yet....might not get there.....but I can't forget the stories of my Grandparents, either....

[Dob Bole]

21. I had the same impression that you did about the movie...

I'm only 21, but I grew up around a lot of people who lived during the Depression. It's just something that doesn't leave one's mind.

[RainDog]

24. and also bank with a local credit union

instead of part of the citibank hydra, etc.

[KoKo]

28. Senior Citzens and others who save are not getting by with 1% in a Savings

Account......And, some people need "Safe" investments. They need them.....

[CWebster]

35. Unfortunately

I ruined the viewing experience by watching a few interesting and informative documentaries on the Seabicuit story before I saw the movie.

Some of the footage from those years and the picture of FDR while the narrator spoke of the hope of the people due to "having someone who cared about them again in the Whitehouse" really was a sad commentary on where we are now.