We are in deep trouble with these pictures

[ShaneGR]

Today a ranking member of the United States Senate has come out in favor of censoring the press from obtaining or releasing more photos. My first reaction is to question whether that's even legal under the constitution.

And then I started thinking about this absolute mess. If these pictures are as sickening and filthy as what I've read, they will permanently tarnish the honor and dignity of our nation. No american will be safe abroad. None. Not for a while. From what I've read, I believe that what is in those pictures and video, if seen internationally, will actually make me less safe. It really is a matter of national security at this point.

Thoughts?

[Must_B_Free]

1. They'll get out

they'll be leaked or perhaps someone has copies or the originals.

The more they try to suyppress them, the more valuable they become.

[Steven_S]

2. Tough call...

But the right thing to do would be to release them in all their ugliness.

Supressing evidence of war crimes is, itself, a crime.

Let the chips fall where they may. That's easy for me to say, though.

[freetobegay]

3. Thats exactly why they need to be released!

So people can see them & to ensure it never happens again!

[ShaneGR]

7. I will agree with you on that

But you only need to release so many before people get the point and we're wounded enough for it to not happen again. But all 1200 of them? The video? We are talking about serious business.

[ldf]

40. by releasing the photos

maybe finally americans will become outraged.

outraged at what WE are doing, or what our own are doing in our name. people need to get past the idea that we can do no wrong, so if necessary, sometimes our face must be rubbed in it.

maybe people will wake up and "get it" that those soldiers were doing what they were told to do. this is rot from the very top. "soften" them up. we don't need no steenkin' geneva convention rules. whatever it takes. use same procedures as gitmo.

hiding it is making less of it. and that is the last thing we should do.

[MikeG]

4. Let them get out in the usual way. By leaking them.

[banana republican]

5. The Iraqi's have been living with this for a year or more.

What make you think the the whole world is not watching???

[NNN0LHI]

31. Funny how people forget the actual victims of this war crime so easily

We have to hide these pictures like a drawer full of rotting fish for the sake of our national security like that will make this all go away. I can't believe that one.

Don

[bemildred]

6. The Senator is most likely out of luck.

Keeping them off CNN won't do the job these days.

The pics will further tarnish the dignity and honor of the US
government. US citizens will have to travel on their own
merits, or not as they choose, but their dignity an honor is
not directly affected by the pics.

It's worth noting that despite the unpleasantness 65 years ago
Japanese and German travelers are welcomed all over the World
today. This is what happens when a government and it's citizens
establish a record of good behavior.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

23. EXCELLENT POINT!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

35. True. The short term is a very hard road

but long term it is for the best.

[juajen]

8. What will be, will be

The pictures will come out. Transparency in government is what is important now. Why do we need even more cries of cover-up? This is what this administration has laid at our door. We have no choice but to open it. If they don't, I'm sure it will be leaked.

[Old and In the Way]

25. Agreed. If for no other reason than to make future administrations

cognizant of the downside risks of starting unilateral, unnecessary wars for personal political/economic gain.

[Eye and Monkey]

9. Perhaps the fakes that will soon be out will be even worse.

[lastknowngood]

10. Until they are made public we are at risk of blackmail by any

person who has or claims to have a copy. If we see them we may get mad enough to change our country, otherwise nothing will change. We are already pariahs around the world which has known of this kind of activity taking place at the direction of the CIA for over 60 years. America is the only country who hasn't seen or known about this. We need to face it. As my great Uncle Carl use to say there comes a time when you have to grab the bull by the tail and face the situation.

[FloridaPat]

11. It's amazing how it's always a national security issue when bad

news against the government comes out. Another good excuse is that people will loose trust in their government and president. If we had more truth, I believe we would have less crap like Iraq.

[pinkpops]

12. It wouldn't be the pictures that are sickening and filthy -

it would be activity in front of the lens. If it happened, it happened, and no one has the right to tell anyone else they can't see them.

[ibegurpard]

Thoughts?

I am not surprised at this sentiment from you.

[riverwalker]

13. release them

We have to release them. When I travel abroad, I will just say I am a Canadian.

[RoyGBiv]

14. A Thought

This started rumbling around in my mind when I heard some of the as yet unreleased photos were "pornographic" in nature.

I fear this is where that bit of SCOTUS "wisdom" known as "community standards" may show its true colors and work its way into a national setting. I've not let my mind work around the legal question far enough to figure how exactly it could be done, but without even going there, I think BuchCo could drag the matter out in a court setting long enough for them not to be released prior to the election, which is all they really care about, I think.

As for national security, I certainly understand the concern, but I am quite frankly sick and tired of censorship in the name of national security. That slippery slope conservatives and even moderates poo-pooed as paranoid rambling has become ever steeper and is now official state policy. It's not truly about national security; it's about the political security of the party in power.

[whistle]

15. The United States government is now behaving...

...like a blackmail victim that has something very disturbing to hide at any cost. Does this mean our nation is now desperate and must do anything possible to maintain its honor? Well, those who are guilty and that means those all the way to the top must step forward and confess their guilt and hope that will protect the honor of our nation.

[EstimatedProphet]

16. Our reputation is ALREADY tarnished

The violations have already happened. Hiding the evidence won't change that, and censoring the press, even if it's called saving the honor of the US, is trying to hide the evidence. The only way for us to get our honor back at this point is to correct the situation, and be up front with the pictures. Our cowardly administration, who is truly responsible for this and isn't mature enough to accept responsibility for anything, has to be taken to task for this, not allowed to dodge it.
This not only will come out, it NEEDS to come out.

[izzie]

17. What are the odds in Nev. on if they will come out????????

They must be taking that bet.I can not make up my mind what we should do and either way, we do not win.

[stopbush]

18. If our *god-fearing, moral* nation is so weak that a set of pictures

can bring it down...then let anarchy reign.

Seriously. These pictures are indeed shocking, but if you think about it, they're only shocking because the presentation of what war *IS* has been so sanitized that Americans are horrified by its realities.

War is an ugly business. It's death and horror. It's not a video game. Let's see it all.

Bottom line: WE did this. Our (s)elected leaders APPROVED these tortures. THIS IS WHO WE HAVE BECOME UNDER SHRUBCO. Embrace the horror!

[mike_c]

19. facing the truth is always better than lying or covering up....

If that makes Americans less safe then our leaders, and those responsible for this mess, should answer for it. Keeping a cone of silence over this will not work, and ultimately would only give a pass to those responsible.

We deserve to know what our military does in our names.

[seabeyond]

20. never can you evolve hiding a secret

hiding them are not going to allow things to be better. the only thing that will allow us to be better is to,..........be better and in time earn trust back. we do not deserve trust, we lost that. that is the thing with trust, abuse it and it is gone. takes time to heal and earn

[ewagner]

21. Dubya's own words:

He said something to the effect that the difference between Democracy and a Dictatorship was that people in a Democracy deal with their misdeeds openly.

I'm sure it was all empty rhetoric to him but in a sense, he was right. If we make every reasonable effort to bring the guilty (all the way up to Rummy) to justice, and show the American public the misdeeds in all their gory detail, then we can tell emerging democracies that we truly have nothing to hide.

If the America public demands punishment for those who committed the deeds, maybe we can salvage some of our reputation.

[tom_paine]

39. I'm afraid there is small chance of that

I'd say NO chance, which is what I really think, but just trying to be realistic.

Ok, actually realistic is "ZERO CHANCE".

WWFMD? What Would Ferdinand Marcos Do?

[Jacobin]

22. "It's not the crime. It's the cover up"

These fuckers in Congress will never learn. Never.

[ant]

24. heh

If these pictures are as sickening and filthy as what I've read, they will permanently tarnish the honor and dignity of our nation.

Assuming, of course, the US has much honor or dignity to begin with in the eyes of those you're concerned about. There were no pictures released before the Cole bombing or the first WTC bombing or even 9/11, after all. These pictures are just one more piece of evidence for those who hate the US. I'm sure the people most surprised by all this are the US citizens who don't know their own country's history.

As for the issue of national security, it is the US' refusal to admit mistakes/atrocities while constantly casting itself as the most perfect nation in the universe that tends to irk people. In light of that, I would think hiding the pictures would be seen as just another US attempt to cover up and ignore the bad behavior everyone else on the planet is painfully aware of.

In addition to releasing everything, there needs to be an apology and many, many people - especially Rumsfeld - have to be fired. I think showing that the nation can recognize an obvious wrong and deal with it quickly would go a long way in restoring credibility. I think the US also needs to admit it fucked up in Iraq and basically beg the international community for help in fixing the mess that's been created. I don't think Bush can pull all that off, of course, especially since he's at the top of the list of people who should be fired.

So then, the only way to fix this country's image after the release of those pictures is for USers to stand up and make it clear that this is completely unacceptable. A good start would be throwing each and every one of those motherfuckers out of office. (I would also like to see a mass demonstration on the mall expressing outrage at what's been happening - I think that would play very well - but I'll take what I can get.)

In any case, I guess my point is that Bush's re-election will say more about this country than those damn pictures ever could.

[xray s]

26. my guess for the reason why they don't want them released

not what they show, but who they show

[Catherine Vincent]

27. I'm wondering if they are doing a Clinton trick.

Remember Clinton's taped testimony? Put out the word that the pics and videos are so horrid, much worse than what we have seen already. Really blow it out of proportion and then the pics will be released but not as bad as they say they were. Senator Bill Nelson said he didn't see any video of rapes. I think we may have seen the most horrid of the pics.

[Aidoneus]

38. attack dogs biting a cornered man, anally raped by a chemical lightbulb

pouring phosphoric acid on a hostage's genitals.. I don't think such rambunctious cuddling could possibly be overhyped.. I've already displayed how loony I am by being more outraged by these tortures themselves and NOT being more concerned about damage control, but I think those are pretty fucking insane and not to be shrugged off by whatever cheap magic tricks of the presentation.

[thethinker]

28. We need to show them ALL

The only way the rest of the world will ever believe America again is if we have full disclosure and face up to what has happened. The world needs to see a serious investigation, full disclosure and heads rolling at the top. We are talking about war crimes and nobody seems to want to use the term.

America used to stand for something in the world. We used to have moral authority. We never will have that standing in the world again - unless we make this bad situation right.

If we want to regain the respect of the rest of the world, we need to earn it. We need to stand tall, and demand full disclosure, and prosecution of ALL the guilty parties (especially the ones that designed this policy).

Hiding the pictures from the public only makes things worse.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. Keeping things secret for reasons of "national security"

usually means, "Everyone in the world already knows about it except the American people."

[markses]

30. The dignity of our nation was tarnished from 1965-1973

Pretty good. Much worse shit, as well. (Pick up French, German, and even English magazines from the late 1960's - you'll see a fucking monster!)

Let's not get hysterical.

[Aidoneus]

32. How sickening..

Spin control is all that matters? And you wonder why the "Uber Left" won't march in your parade?! :eyes:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

33. No censorship. They must be released.

As for Americans being in danger travelling, I think that's been an issue since we cut off our old friends and the world and started this war. Rape photos etc. will make that worse to be sure, but they must be released.

[ConsAreLiars]

34. Hiding/releasing them is irrelevant, so long as the occupation continues

What people in the region, and others loyal to Islam, and the whole rest of the world will believe will be proportional mainly by the duration of the US occupation.

Whether more details of how US policy treats its "enemies" (and those who might sympathize with or know something about them) are documented by photos or by words, the significance and credibility of the "evidence" will depend on how overall US goals and purposes are seen.

Releasing ALL the imagery would have the net effect of constraining rumors about what they actually show. "Yeah, they killed the camel but they didn't eff the corpse."

Either way, if the US continues the current policy, the belief that the US is the enemy of the Iraqis, of their neighbors, of Islam, or of the whole world, and capable of unspeakable indecencies, will continue to increase.

(edit: modified subject line)

[nonconformist]

36. They either come out all at once or they're leaked slowly by insiders

But mark my words, they'll come out. It's like pulling off a band-aid, so I prefer all at once.

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[Aidoneus]

41. These horrible crimes are not without punishments

A 2nd reply, because this kind of dishonesty and cowardice is astounding even to me..

The whole world knows about this, no amount of spin control with the most pathetic of reasoning can mask the awful truth. Those responsible for these crimes represent a plague on humanity, and a cancer that should be cut out. There is no weasling out of that. It is disgusting that you wish to keep the acts of these monsters under wraps for the sake of image.

This, the "moderate" face of "pragmatism"..

[opihimoimoi]

42. Here I thought we were the Home of the BRAVE, where is our COURAGE?

Show them Damn things and be done with it so the Healing can begin for Gods Sake.