Nick Bergs killers are WHITE.....

[truebrit71]

..having seen the video, which is just mind-numbing, there is NO doubt WHATSOEVER that the killers are white. Especially the two at the ends. Their posture, their hand-movements and their overall mannerisms are westernized and their hands are CLEARLY white...

Do you think there's a snowball's chance in hell that this will get investigated properly? Nope, neither did I...

This stinks to high heaven....

There is something VERY wrong about this whole deal...Something just isn't right....

[WilliamPitt]

1. Not all Muslims are brown

Think Chechnya, Serbia, Bosnia.

[truebrit71]

4. You've seen the video for yourself Will....

...I humbly submit to you that these guys are as white as you and me...

[WilliamPitt]

7. See post #1

[KissMyAsscroft]

10. It's a possibility...

But if the only evidence is their mannerisms are white and their hands are pale, that isn't really conclusive proof.

[Walt Starr]

28. Definitely not proof

but it certainly raises a reasonable doubt.

[Terran]

30. What exactly are "white mannerisms"? n/t

[Catholic Sensation]

78. practicing one's golf swing without a club

:D

[Karenina]

84. They're LOTS of 'em!

If you have a sharp eye, ear and plenty of exposure they're as PLAIN AS THE NOSE ON YOUR FACE. I can now spot someone from the former east in a nanosecond and am myself rarely mistaken for African. For fun and games go to alllooksame.com and see how you do. I scored better than the mean for Asians, but throughout my life I never got twins mixed up either, even ones I just met.

Japanese handwriting in English is also easy to spot. When the eyes fail keep the ears open. Native Spanish speakers' German... nearly incomprehensible but distictly identifiable. Got broadsided once on a train sitting across from a guy I thought was Turkish cuz of the garbled tongue he was blabbering into his cell phone. Then came the giveaway. When he hung up I asked him about his tossed salad verbiage. He laughed roundly, amused that I'd picked up on it.

David threw me for a loop one day though. We were walking to the Pub when he noticed 2 guys coming toward us. "Protestants," he said. As we approached the door I just asked them in a goofy girl kind of way. When David and I sat down I demanded, "How'd you KNOW that so far away? ALL Y'ALL be pasty and white." He just grinned, rolled his eyes at me and bought me a pint o' Guinness...

[Tinoire]

93. Look at the picture Judilyn posted

:hi: Dirk



That's one portly 'terrarist' on the right and the rest definitely appear milk-fed. Also frankly, I've never seen Arabs slouching like that. I am sure some do but 5 of them? And with all the other strange facts of this case?

I know you distrust this administration as much as anyone else here so I'm intrigued by your thoughts on the entire story. Do you think this is on the up and up? And just in time to eclipse the growing torture scandal on the news.

It's also extremely strange that there was NO mention of Nick Berg until May 8.

Remember Hammill? We heard about him every single day. This guy? Not a peep until 2 days ago.

[Terran]

138. Tinoire

I certainly admit that there are suspicious things involved in this story. But so far I don't see anything conclusive. People are saying that because the killers look light-skinned and "fat" that they can't be Arabs/Iraqis/members of al Qaeda. Well, that strikes me as ignorance and stereotyping. Arabs are, in fact, inclined toward girth just as Euro-Americans are; and I don't think the quality of the video really allows for any conclusive judgments about the ethnicity of the killers, even if that were relevant. I also don't see their posture as an issue; people are somehow assuming that Arabs are not capable of slouching the way Americans often do; again, it's stereotyping.

The prison uniform is suspicious, but it's pure speculation to say that it indicates that Berg was killed by a US faction. If he was indeed killed by Americans, why would they leave him dressed in such a uniform and invite such suspicion. If the whole thing is a black ops jobs, you have to admit it's a damn sloppy job, right? If the CIA really wanted to convince people it was al Qaeda that did this, don't you imagine they would be more professional about it?

I don't see anything here, including the timing, that cannot be explained by the chaotic situation that reigns in Iraq right now. As was indicated in a news story this AM by an Iraqi cleric, the US killed hundreds of people in Falluja in what appeared to the Iraqis as revenge for the four people who killed and dragged through the streets; now this killing has taken place as revenge for Falluja. It's a cycle of violence starting up, just like in Israel.

I don't claim to know the truth of this; there are a thousand different scenarios, any of which could be true. I'm just skeptical of the people who act like they have it all nailed down.

Dirk

[MoonRiver]

64. Is there a possibility that the "white" guys were chosen

by the killers just to raise these kind of doubts? I don't know what the heck is going on and I will NEVER look at that video. I have a hard enough time sleeping as it is. Anyway, I think if bushco wanted to reignite rage against the Iraqis it would have chosen some "brown" guys to do the deed. Plus, it seems like staging such a thing could easily backfire. People are more likely to become incensed that we're there than focus their anger on Iraqis, imho.

[KissMyAsscroft]

6. Yep...

I dont think you can conclusively say that they are white.

[Mountainman]

16. That reminds me of when Malcolm X came back from Mecca

He told his friends about the white Muslims. That's when he began to change his mind about the white race being the devil race.

[Cleita]

36. As well as many Afghanis and Iranians.

I once worked with a blond blue eyed Iranian as well as others with light skin and eyes.

[K8-EEE]

59. Is There Talking In It?? (I Don't Want To Watch Thank You!)

Do any of them speak? If it's silent that's kind of suspect...because they are usually ranting on and on in those types of videos!

[Castilleja]

69. They speak for awhile, actually

I thought it was odd, though, that as the guy was reading from 2 pages, he kept flipping them over, numerous times. Does anyone know what direction the language is written in? Or how it would be read. Such as, we read from left to right, and Japan reads writing in a whole different way.

[TheDebbieDee]

147. I'm almost Arabic is written from right to left, and it looks very.....

beautiful and artistic, like calligraphy.

[RapidCreek]

108. I would hazard to guess most Egyptian, Syrian

muslims are brown Will....as the accent of the man reading the script was alleged to be....by experts.

RC

[keithyboy]

130. WillPitt, what are your thoughts about the orange jumpsuit and yellow wall

inquiring minds would like to know.

[okieinpain]

144. yeah, since when did the terrorist come up with prison uniforms

[troublemaker]

2. Guess what? Iraqis are white.

News Flash!!!

[oneighty]

11. Yes

Caucasians I believe one might say. Gee!

180

[lancdem]

25. I think Iraqis are Arabs

and Iranians are Caucasian.

[QC]

103. Arabs are Caucasian. n/t

[oneighty]

137. Arabs

Are not a 'Race'. There are three races of man; Mongolian, Caucasian and Negroid. Iraq is Caucasian.

180

[doni_georgia]

68. Thank you! Look at this picture

Just because the idiot president thinks otherwise doesn't mean a damn thing! There are various ethnic groups living in Iraq. Some are light skinned, some are darker skinned, but all are caucasians. Below we have a white, chubby Iraqi - nuff said?

[Tinoire]

95. Do you have the link that goes with that story from USA TODAY?

There are plenty of portly milk-fed Opposition party members roaming the streets of Iraq right now. Chalabi's men immediately come to mind- you know the ones that were whooping it up in the streets when the statue was pulled down.

http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2003/09/13-in-iraqis. jpg

Iraq's number one health problem before the start of the sanctions was obesity, especially in children. That all changed.

So are these milk-fed opposition Iraqis in that picture or what? I'd be curious to see what that story linked to especially when it comes from USA Today which was shilling for the administration showing us how thrilled they were to be liberated.

Kind of strange in that pic that people are standing behind in the back-ground, just calmly watching.

[doni_georgia]

98. Here's the link

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-09-13-fallujah_x.htm

[Tinoire]

107. Thanks!

You get that one (point). Thanks

[okieinpain]

145. man if that does look like a poster for the nra in west virginia.

[Trajan]

3. Many Muslims are VERY white ....

Dont descend into this ....

[Catherine Vincent]

13. I think the poster is insinuating the killers are Americans.

CIA or mercenaries, maybe?

[Walt Starr]

15. CIA is my guess

Timing is too perfect.

[Bombtrack]

19. Yeah because the CIA has SO much interest in beheading American

electricians from Pennsylvania. It really advances their goals. Also they are reptilian lizard men so they do need to feed on Jewish blood every now and then.

[truebrit71]

42. If it furthers Bush's agenda and gets the focus OFF the

sanctioned torture of innocent Iraqi's at the hands of US soldiers why not?

No need for the sarcasm by the way...it's very childish...

[Bombtrack]

52. It's childish to believe in this narrow minded extremist point of view

that scapegoats the us government and Israel for everything evil that happens FUCKING INSTANTLY.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying they have shit for evidence that it's even likely but they're talking as if they know.

[bhunt70]

63. agreed

[stickdog]

86. What's childish is to uncritically buy whatever the US media is selling.

Regardless.

[truebrit71]

90. I'm sorry but where the fuck did I say Israel had ANYTHING to do with this

WTF??

Have you seen the video?

[Ardee]

102. there are many,many people worldwide

who have been exposed first hand to CIA machinations, including torture, murder, overthrowing of governments and other atrocities. Whether or not this is another one of them is moot but to defend our long history of shame is rather unbecoming.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

135. Just out of curiousity, how much money do you think is currently....

...wrapped up in Iraq? $75 billion? $100 billion?

How much oil do you think is under the surface of Iraq? How much money do you think that represents?

How many thousands of people of all nationalities have been killed or maimed in Iraq? What kind of price-tag do you want to place on that?

Are you really stating that there's no rationale for killing Berg, even though that much money is at stake?

As far as Israel and the U. S. being made "scapegoats", I personally believe that they've brought it on themselves with their failed policies. JMHO.

[Mike Daniels]

151. Looking at front page of Washington Post

Above the fold are three stories about Iraq:

Two are about the prison scandal with other articles further in about yesterday's testimony.

One is about Berg.

The amount of text on the front page is about equal for the two topics and inside there is much more text about the prison abuse than there is about Berg.

I'd say at this point that the prison story is still out in front.

[stickdog]

82. Yep. It had to be those terraists who hate freedom and gas puppies!

And they just happen to cover themselves from head to toe.

And they just happen to wrap towels over their ski masks like they wanted to be hired as extras for The Return of the Mummy.

And they just happen to have a US-issued orange jumpsuit on hand.

And they just happen to pick up the most innocent, non-military, non-defense contractor guy they can find -- a guy who had just been detained in US prison for two weeks and who was released only after his parents filed suit.

And they just happen to film his execution using the most out of focus and blurry video camera imaginable.

And they just happen to use the newest Microsoft WMV codecs for their video.

And they just happen to release this video on their website (play that over in your head a few times) and then they just happen to get all the major news outlets to release it as legitimate "breaking news" before any Western intelligence can confirm it as such.

And this video release just happens to serve as the most potent possible counter-propaganda to the video images of US-run prison abuse at the best possible time for Bush apologists.

Just look at the picture and try not to be such Gomers about it:

[RapidCreek]

112. Great point about the codec

I hadn't thought of that....I had noticed the shitty quality of the video...which boggles the mind when you consider it was encoded with the codec it was encoded with. That in and of itself is almost proof enough for me that this thing is a con job.

RC

[QC]

141. You can download it for free at Microsoft.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/9series/encoder/default.aspx

[Tinoire]

115. Stickdog! Please!

I'm not a techie, can you PLEASE explain the significance of that in my thread.

And they just happen to use the newest Microsoft WMV codecs for their video.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1577936

Thanks

[tom_paine]

20. Nail...meet head!

Yep. Most likely.

there is the chance that it's legit because how would the Imperial Subjects of Amerika with it's Laughingstock Press find out either way.

We have the Soviet's Dilemna. Surrounded by Lies, no Free Press to turn to, and the government that was supposed to protect us now does the exact opposite...it preys on us, hurst and destroys us and oiur future with the help of the Laughingstock Press.

[Walt Starr]

24. COINTELPRO

The CIA are masters at this sort of shit.

[tom_paine]

41. Agreed. n.t

[snooper2]

61. That is just stupid...

eom

[Walt Starr]

126. Sorta like a post

saying something is just plain stupid?

[truebrit71]

35. Yup..got it in one....

..these are NOT Arabs IMHO...

[0007]

117. The person on the far right appears to me to be a women

They do look like westerners to me.

[Trajan]

48. An insinuation without cause ....

As much as I despise Bush and the GOP, the actions against Berg are entirely consistent with extreme muslim rage ....

One might as well note a Nike shoe, and declare Andre Agassi the killer ....

This assertion is fraught with fallacy on many levels ....

[stickdog]

87. The only thing it's consistent with is bad Republican screenwriting.

Repeat after me:

It's easy to believe Muslim extremists did this.

It's insane to consider that they did not.

You are getting sleepy.

[tom_paine]

5. Could you be more specific?

I haven't seen the video yet, but will tune in soon. What makes you think they are white. What hand-movements and mannerisms suggest this to you, partiuclarly as a certainty.

Not trying to ridicule, just trying to learn.

[truebrit71]

21. It's kind of hard to nail down...

..the physical way they stand and hold themselves (I know that sounds vague), their hand gestures are very white...Arabs tend to be very expressive with their hands, these guys simply hang them at their sides...The way that they hold their weapons is VERY 'western' IMHO...

They are definitely not ARABS doing this....

The whole thing looks like setup....The one guy (on the rightside of the screen) was very fidgety and nervous...almost anxious...he kept looking to his right to see if the fella in the middle was done reading....If he spoke the language wouldn't he know when his 'leader' was done...

The more I think about it, the more this just doesn't sit right....

[tom_paine]

40. Interesting. I'll be watching it later.

[x-g.o.p.er]

47. Respectfully, and vehemently, disagree

I'm not above saying that the government isn't capable of some crooked shit, but my God, not this. I have looked at the video, and the assertions that the "gestures, and hand movements" insinuate that it is Americans doing this is dubious, at best, IMHO.

Arabs are very fair skinned, and caucasians can be very dark skinned (think Michael Jackson vs. George Hamilton). I don't mean to be funny over a subject as mortifying ans sober as this, I'm just trying to illustrate my point.

And I will even put on a tinfoil hat and go along with this for just a minute. Suppose it was caucasians that did this? What proof do you have that it was Americans in general, or the CIA in particular, that did this? Are there not European Muslims (Chechnya, Bosnia) who might hav ehheded the call to jihad and gone to Iraq, like many Muslims have? You could probably fins just as many "experts" that would swear it was Europeans, or Arabs, just as you're sure they're Americans. The timing may support a deflection of the Abu Ghairb story to get it off the front page, but in the Arab culture, an insult to their culture must be answered quickly and definitively, or face more shame, as I understand it. (And I in no way claim to be an expert on the culture of the middle east, so if I am wrong, please correct me). So the quick appearance of the Berg video could plausibly be explained that way, also.

Just because you want to believe that ther CIA was behind this, doesn't mean it is so. Until I see solid, irrefutable proof, I will file this in the "tinfoil hat" file.

[Castilleja]

74. It may be your intuition suggesting

that they are westernized, and therefore hard to pin down why you think so. And I agree that how the guy on the right is holding and or shifting his weapon is familiar looking. Vague again, but I think I know what you mean. Seems that whenever I see these types of videos, the gunmen are holding their guns up across their abdomens, but I am no expert on terrorist video either. The man on the right does look over to his left frequently, and he is nervous looking. Did you notice the flipping of the same two pages, quite a few times?

[Bombtrack]

8. Arabs are Caucasoids, not negroids. They come from the same

racial "third" of people as european whites. They range in skin pigment from very light to very dark.

And MANNERISMS are not racial and I suspect you are seeing what you want to see. They weren't breakdancing were they? (Saracasm)

[Walt Starr]

9. Yep, I watched the entire thing, too

Most of the guys were white and the guy who sawed off Berg's head with a knife was whiter than Berg, even after his face turned the color of a sheet while his throat was cut and the head was removed, the guy who did it's hand was STILL FUCKING WHITER THAN BERG'S SHEET WHITE FACE!!!

[WilliamPitt]

14. See Post #1

[TheDebbieDee]

17. Thanks for sharing that with us, Walt.

[Walt Starr]

18. I figure most people don't have the stomach to watch the thing

I watched it and I know what I saw.

[AlCzervik]

23. i made the mistake of

watching it, it was hard to tell to be honest but i suppose they could be white, their hands were very light.

[Bog Frog]

26. Good for you.

[Castilleja]

12. You may be right

The two on the end look especially so. The I watched the one on the right particularly, the way he stands as well as his shoes. But it is hard to be sure. Horrible video in any case, I probably should not have watched it. Disturbing.

[bolokshi]

22. somebody said they speak with accent.........

whatever that means, cannot differentiate Arabic accent, all I know is they do look suspicious in a sense that the green military top they where wearing looks just the same as the securities guarding Paul Bremer.

[Tinoire]

39. Per CNN: Arabs saying it wasn't Zarqawi's voice n/t

[Terran]

27. Are you an expert of Arabic "posture"

or body language, at all? I've seen the video; it's dim and grainy, and it proves nothing of the sort.

[napi21]

29. Well, there have been lots of stories about some US

citizens, especially in prisons, turning to Islam religion. Since we do get the Tim McVeighs here, I suppose it's possible these guys are real traitors. I forget the guys name, but there was one guy we arrested who was very unhappy here in the US, and he went to study with Osama. I remember CNN interviewing his parents.

[Tinoire]

31. Ignore the ridicule & condescension

Some of us will be watching closely for this.

White. White sneakers.His family's suit in Federal court demanding he be release from the US Military Prison where he was being illegally detained. The father's name posted on a FreeRepublic Hate Thread as an enemy of the United States for supporting justice for the Palestinians.

Shit. Tons of stuff not adding up and you get jumped on like this. Ignore it. Some of the people who jumped on you are the same ones doing gymnastical apologetics for war, IWR votes & a continued occupation.

This whole thing STINKS to HIGH Heaven.

[truebrit71]

94. Thanks....i am gob-smacked at the bile being slung around here..

..especially from those that haven't even SEEN the damn thing...

Oh well...At least I'm not alone...

[TrogL]

32. Just phoned somebody who's spent years in the Middle East

White skin is common. Get over it. No need for :tinfoilhat:

[stickdog]

83. It's very common. Just like terra'ists releasing gruesome blurry videos

on their websites! And those videos then being immediately released as "breaking news" BEFORE they can be examined by Western intelligence!

No need for :tinfoilhat:. Nope. Happens every day!

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[goodhue]

51. you ignore legitimate questions

There are legitimate questions that are unanswered.

Why was Berg in Iraq?

Did he really just go there at his own initiative because he thought he could get work installing antennas?

Why was Berg jailed by the US military in Iraq?

Was he subject to interrogation by military intelligence?

Why was he released? When? And to whose custody?

Was he on his way home to the US, and if so how?

Where has he been since April 9?

Was he a critic of the US occupation?

Who are the "real perps"?

[Tansy_Gold]

113. Possible answers --

Why was Berg in Iraq?

He originally had some kind of contract to do some kind of work. he was there for a month or so, work ended, he went home. Decided to go back to Iraq to look for more work.

I know that's an incredibly bizarre suggestion, that someone would go to Iraq looking for work repairing communications towers, but well, it just might be, mightn't it????

Did he really just go there at his own initiative because he thought he could get work installing antennas?

Maybe he did and maybe he didn't. Seems like you asked a question, assumed an answer, but don't like that answer so you want another one. Berg's family has apparently said he went to Iraq to fix/install radio towers. obviously, of course, since they're his parents, and his father is his business partner, they can't be trusted to tell the truth. (sarcasm turned down, but not off).

Why was Berg jailed by the US military in Iraq?

We don't know. Maybe they wanted to know why he was wandering around Iraq without a stated purpose. Maybe he had been seen in the company of some former Ba'athists, trying to find work. But I think it's a pretty big leap to think that just because Berg was picked up by the Iraqi police (who are working basically at the pleasure of the CAP) he must have been murdered by the CIA two months later.

Was he subject to interrogation by military intelligence?

You're asking this in a kind of tone that implies something is being hidden. I believe it was clearly stated that the Iraqi police turned him over to the CAP. The military is running everything, including the prisons. Was he held there for 13 days because no one believed he was an American? Was he held for 13 days because that's how long it took to process him? Dunno. But those might be legit questions to ask, too.

Why was he released? When? And to whose custody?

He was released 13 days after his arrest. He was probably released because they figured out he was an American looking for communications construction work. He was released into his own custody, because he went back to his hotel and contacted his parents and told them he was going to try to get back to the States via Kuwait and Jordan because the increased fighting had closed a lot of the roads.

Was he on his way home to the US, and if so how?

One can, I think, safely assume he was on his way back to the U.S. since that's what he told his parents he was going to do. Of course, I suppose they can be part of the conspiracy, faking their anti-war stance, etc., etc., etc.

Where has he been since April 9?

Apparently, he's been "missing." One might logically assume he was kidnapped around that time by the people who ultimately murdered him. This sort of thing happens, and it's not just the CIA who does it. There have been several reports of X number of Americans "missing" in Iraq, whether they are attached to contractors or security personnel or aid workers or reporters or what, who knows. But it's been no secret that a number of them are missing and presumed either dead or in the hands of kidnappers of one stripe or another.

As opportunistic as * may be, isn't it possible that al-Zarqawi (sp)(who may or may not himself have been in the video, thus explaining how the voice didn't sound like him) took advantage of an opportunity to snatch an unguarded American? Maybe to use as a hostage to bargain for the release of some other al-Qaeda types being held, even if the CAP didn't know (yet) that they were al-Qaeda?

Was he a critic of the US occupation?

Apparently not, as he seemed to be trying his best to take advantage of business opportunities provided by the occupation. His father was anti-war, but that doesn't mean either one of them was anti-business opportunities. One of the parents stated that Nick wanted to try to help the Iraqi people, so it doesn't sound like he was vocal in any kind of opposition; most of the major contractors are using "we want to help the Iraqi people" as a cover-up for their nefarious schemes.

Who are the "real perps"?

I suspect the real perps are the guys in the video. They might even be followers of al-Zarqawi, anti-American muslim extremists, loyal to Osama bin-Laden. . . . . . .




Look, I hate the bushies and I wouldn't put anything past them, but if we spend all our time looking for far-out conspiracies, I think we're in mega danger of losing sight of the obvious enemies: the terrorists. And haven't we been accusing the bushies of ignoring Afghanistan and OBL and al-Qaeda in favor of going after his personal bogeyman Saddam? Aren't we maybe just a bit guilty of the same thing, looking for our own bushie bogeyman where there isn't one, and in the process letting the real bad guy get away?

Sorry this has taken me so long to write that it probably will end up way down-thread of the original question.

Tansy Gold

[troublemaker]

116. Thank you

[Tansy_Gold]

118. You're welcome. And a follow-up to my own post

This occurred to me as I was reading some other threads and I just decided for no good reason to post it here rather than there. (Please, don't anyone make up a conspiracy theory about why i did it. . . . ;-))

Anyway, here's my question, and I hope everyone will take it as legit because that's the way it's intended:

Was there any suggestion that the murders of the four contractors might have been the work of CIA/Black Ops/Bushies? Or did we all just pretty much accept that the locals had had their fill of the contractors and were getting even?

Just asking,

Tansy Gold

[Must_B_Free]

122. Tansy - answer this

If you had already basically won the war of hearts and minds and your opponants leadership was collapsing - why would you go and do something like this which is tactically disadvantageous?

[Tansy_Gold]

134. Your question doesn't exactly make sense.

Who is "you" and whose hearts and minds are you winning?

The bushies haven't won any hearts and minds in Iraq or Afghanistan or anywhere in the freakin' world for that matter. They not only allowed the prison abuse to happen, but they compounded it by not apologizing for it and for trying to cover it up to the extent that a media person -- Sy Hersh, bless his little bulldog heart -- forced their hand.

The bushies would like for the whole prison abuse scandal to go away. They would like a nice distraction -- Shark Attack! Democratic senator sex scandal! -- and I wouldn't put it past them to manufacture one.

I think they'd also like to get some sympathy, meaning they want the people who are drifting away from the approval numbers to come back. They want something that will go out to the public and say, "See, we're doing something right for a change! The jobs are coming back, the environment is cleaner, and the war is going better! And don't you feel sorry for us that we can't do an better job because it really isn't our fault?"

But I don't think engineering the murder of an American businessman and pinning the blame on a group of radical Islamists -- who are known to have been the object of various warnings to the bushies in the recent past, warnings which were pointedly ignored -- is the best way to accomplish this.

Now, is it possible that the bushies are in such a sweat over the plummeting approval numbers and the prison abuse revelations that they screwed up and planned the murder without a great deal of caution and preparation? I don't think so. Is it possible that they were so sloppy in their execution (bad pun intended) that they let one of the operatives wear sneakers? C'mon, will someone please admit that sneakers as evidence of American nationality is utterly absurd? Again, I don't think they'd be this sloppy.

There's all this talk on DU about the damn orange jumpsuit Berg was wearing at the time of his murder. no one seems even to respond to the posts that a.) he was released from U.S. custody at least three days before his disappearance and therefore it is HIGHLY unlikely he was wearing the same prison jumpsuit he might have been wearing in jail and b.) the jumpsuit he was wearing in the murder video appears to be very different in fabric and construction from standarn prison-issue clothing. It's as if the conspiracy believers are just not willing to accept counter evidence.

There are even people arguing that the walls in the murder video are the same color as the walls in Abu Ghraib! As if that's evidence! Of what? That he was murdered in Abu Ghraib?? or that more than one interior in Iraq is painted yellow?

Do the bushies have anything to gain from Berg's murder? Maybe. Maybe it will stir up enough bloodlust and thirst for vengeance to push *'s approval numbers up the way 9/11 did. But there are other people out there who may just say Berg's murder is proof of the bushies' impotence in iraq, their repeated mistakes, the wrongness of the U.S. invasion and continued occupation. I don't think the bushies are stupid enough to take what appears to me to be a 50-50 risk. I think they prefer the odds to be much more in their favor.

Do I think John Negroponte would have hesitated to have Berg murdered if he thought it would do "The Cause" any good? No. I think he has not one ounce of scruples and that the only morality he knows is power. I am sickened at the thought of him in Iraq and I'm disgusted that the Dems approved his nomination. But do I think he engineered the bizarre chain of events that culminated in Nick Berg's murder? No, I don't.

Sometimes, things just happen. Sometimes someone really is in the wrong place at the wrong time -- look at all the prisoners on death row who have been exonerated when someone looked closer at the evidence, or people who are killed by random gunshots -- and as little as we want to accept that things do just happen, I think we have to understand that there are more dynamics at work in Iraq than just the bushies' greed. There really are people there who want to kill us, who want to make an example of American individuals, who are out for revenge, who have different values and traditions than we do.

Now, on the other hand, if your question addresses why would the bushies squander the post-9/11 goodwill that the U.S. enjoyed and go ahead and invade Iraq, well, I guess the only answer is that they were drunk with power and thought they could get away with it. Napoleon thought he could invade Russia in the winter. So did Enver Pasha. So did Hitler. People do dumb things. And so I suppose if we acknowledge that the bushies have done some stupid things, then we have to accept that they might do other stupid things, like carry out the kidnapping and murder of an American businessman for political purposes even though it might backfire on them.

I'm not going to argue that. We'd be getting into really speculative territory and I'm not ready to go there.

But I think it's foolish at this point to base bizarre conspiracy theories on fragile evidence and then ignore the debunking of that evidence to maintain the conspiracy theory.

I've said way too much, and no one is going to pay attention anyway.

[RobinA]

150. Because

you have about as much understanding of your opponent as your opponent has of you?

[goodhue]

34. CIA?

eom

[Walt Starr]

55. I dunno, but it certainly could be!

I need proof that these murderers were Al-Queda or else it's just a spurious claim.

[Lex]

37. When you combine

the fact they are white (okay not conclusive)

with

the fact that Mr. Berg was in an orange jumpsuit (okay not conclusive)

with

the fact that it conveniently happend at such a time to take the press off of the US soldier's treatment of prisoners,

THEN, you've certainly got to wonder how far the coincidences stack up.

[Walt Starr]

44. BINGO!

It's not conclusive proof, but it certainly raises a reasonable doubt as to the actual identity of the murderers.

Are they Al-Queda? Are they Americans pretending to be Al-Queda?

No way to tell from the video.

I don't trust all of the coincidences with the requirement that the torture scandal go away with Bushco and I certainly would not put it past Bushco to out and out murder an anti-war American if it suits their purposes.

[Trajan]

53. Once was a king ...

Who had his servants beat the drums every evening .... so that the sun would rise the next morning ....

Every morning, without fail, AFTER the drums were sounded the evening before, the sun DID rise, thereby proving the king's reasoning ...

We call this a "Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc" fallacy ...

After this, therefore because of this ...

Coincidences can reveal a complex of mutual cause and relevance, or they can be just coincidences ....

[Walt Starr]

57. good point, but it is equally likely

that the murderers were Al-Queda, or American CIA operatives pretending to be Al-Queda.

There is no conclusive evidence for either claim. Ergo, both are equally valid possibilities at this time.

[salin]

66. a satiny/shiney orange jumpsuit? looks like a robe to me.

never seen prison oranges with a sheen.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[rinsd]

43. What are Western mannerisms as compared to Middle Eastern mannerisms?

Because if you expert enough to spot the difference one wonders why you think everyone in the ME is brown skinned?

[Tinoire]

45. TrueBrit- This thread is for you. Without even seeing they were "White"

based on the information I found, my antennae went up and I do not believe the propaganda about Berg being killed by Zarqawi for one effing minute.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1577936

[truebrit71]

50. Thanks for the link...I simply cannot believe some people in this thread..

..they act like sheep...

I bet most haven't even seen it for themselves but they are more than willing to pre-judge me.....

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

65. Right. From the guy who wants Fox news to drum up the blood-thirst!

Gee, where were you during the torture threads?

===============
Faux News will have constant 24/7 beheading coverage

crushbush04 (64 posts) Tue May-11-04 12:13 PM
Response to Original message

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1578177#1578262

6. Why shouldnt they?

This is totally repulsive and disgusting. It deserves just as much coverage as the prisoner scandal. It should be on every news broadcast.

[crushbush04]

71. Are you suggesting....

this is no big deal? So another Americans head gets cut off who really gets hurt?

I was all over the disgraceful torture scandal. Actually a couple of my friends thought I was a little too into it.

That aside my point is...this is a big deal and I have no problem with the news reporting this with the same verve that they showed during the torture story.

So dont be silly, because thats not "drumming up some blood thirst". Thats simply giving the story the respect it deserves. You sound just like some of my crazy repug friends who siad "Oh this torture stuff is no big deal". Sure it was and this certainly is.

My problem is two fold

1) Those here who want to ignore this because it may "help support for the war"

2) Some people here and on the other side who want to use this to make some stupid politcal point. They both disgust me.

[Tinoire]

76. Where were you all over the torture scandal?

It wasn't at DU unless the thread has been archived and most of them haven't yet.

NO progressive wants FOX news to run with ANY story. The Right however wants them to in order to snuff out the torture scandal and get everyone whipped up into a frenzy.

Btw, the words you just tried to put in my mouth, you can have them back because they don't fit.

[Tinoire]

81. Where? It wasn't at DU.

You popped back up just today and just in time to support that FOX run with this story.

FOX News crushbush04. You were supporting FOX news & their propaganda.

[Trajan]

56. These criminals neednt be Zarqawi ...

Nor need they be Bush Bots .... But they surely CAN be Muslim extremists, who have resorted to such tactics in the past ...

These speculations are expected, and healthy ... but these conclusions are as of now unwarranted ...

[Walt Starr]

58. We can no more conclude these were Al-Queda extremists

than we can conclude these were CIA operatives.

Both are equally valid possibilities given the current evidence.

[Tinoire]

67. The video is called "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi shown slaughtering an American"

I can't swallow the Abu Musab al-Zarqawi bit. My vote goes to Bush Bots and/or the sinewy, shadowy Al-Qaeda of which Bush & Carlye are a part. A US President & his family sitting on the same board of a trillion dollar investment house that has its money in weapons & oil right along with the Bin Ladens. One big happy investment house that keeps telling us, after 2 years, that they still can't "find" Bin-Laden. This whole thing is such a sick, sad affair.

Nothing about Al-Qaeda has added up from the beginning which is why I always thought they wre a figment of the Neo-con's imagination, make that creation.

On edit: Whoops, here's a link for the title of the video: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/11/international/middleeast/11CND-BEHE.html?ex=1084939200&en=8e5d12b8e09760c4&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

[bushgottago]

49. WHITE and FAT ....

Glad I'm not the only one who moticed this. I though I was nuts. I see what looks to me like an American gut!

[crushbush04]

62. LOL LOL LOL

I am truly sorry I doubted the original post. I am coverted. The proof was in the proverbial "pudding". I failed to notice the ample gut size of the killers. I now have no doubt that they are some fat-ass-mickey Ds-happy meal eatin' - dunkin doughnuts gobbling - whopper whales from the good ol' U. S of A.

[Tinoire]

70. You're not converted from squat. Why pretend?

Anyone wanted FOX News to take this ball & run with it is past the point of conversion or redemption.

Also, your language is a little overdone in that last post

some fat-ass-mickey Ds-happy meal eatin' - dunkin doughnuts gobbling - whopper whales from the good ol' U. S of A.

I don't know anyone here who strings words together like that ;)

[crushbush04]

80. You really think so

The reference is to the news in general CBS NBC ABC CNN MSNBC FOX , HEADLINE NEWS, UPN, NY TIMES, POST etc etc....get it. They all ran with torture story...thank god. However I am not scared to say this killing deserves ample coverage.

PS. forgive me but I get very annoyed at conspiracy theories

I guess we must have both lost our sense of humor

I think the real conspiracy is the conspiracy theories themselves. They really keep people in the dark. There are folks here who never met a conspiracy they didnt like or give substance to. It makes me crazy.

[Tinoire]

88. Sigh.

Q. Faux News will have constant 24/7 beheading coverage

A. Why shouldn't they?

---------------------

Your words, for posterity, supporting propaganda, the organ of the propaganda, the dissemination of propaganda & whipping-into-a-blood-frenzy of Americans. And you see nothing wrong with that?

An inquiring mind wonders why but has decided that this conversation is totally futile.

I look forward to seeing you on the torture scandal threads ;)

Until then, so long.

[crushbush04]

109. It is amazing...

how many conspiracy spouting goons actually occupy the underground.

Are you saying this is no big deal? Thats what I want to know.
People like you are so scared to give an inch. Is your political position so mindless and weak that you have to make up all kinds of crazy scenarios in order to justify it to yourself? I am confident in my democratic party philosophy to not have to rely on rubbish.

Suggesting that Fox or any other channel is wrong or spreading propaganda because YOU dont believe in the news-worthyness of a story is selfish. You are saying In other words "dont report that story because I dont like it. It doesnt help my position." How weak. What if the Times runs with this? Or CNN? Fox isn't my news channel of choice but a story is a story and people should hear about this and be able to examine what a mess Bush has created.

I remember a thread, after the huge earthquake in Iran that killed over 20,000 people, blaming the U.S. for starting the earthquake. Either through some super secret high-tech earthquake machine or from the bombs dropped in Afganistan.

You should have seen the replies and the theories. It was over 90 deep

I simply refuse to be such an idiot. I wont be the fool with the dumb theory or the one sees a stupid conspiracy lurking around every corner. Its just silly. Listen to yourself. It is intellectually lazy and I think on subconcious level you know how dishonest you really are.

I guess the CIA runs this website too.

What is so hard to believe about some terrorist cutting the throat of an American? Wait I got a good theory for you Maybe the CIA killed Daniel Pearl too after he "got too close to their secret operations in Pakistan"

[Tinoire]

123. Bull-shit. You WANT Fox to run with this story. The "Why" is irrelevant

Every progressive here knows what Fox is. There's only one kind of person who wants FOX to run with any story and they're rather outnumbered on this board.

You can spin it anyway you like but here you hang by your own words & yours were crystal clear.

With that I bid you farewell. I'll be watching your progress on this board from afar :) For the time being, I have no desire to exchange any thoughts with you.

If you desire, you can have the last word; I won't be responding.

[crushbush04]

127. Progressive...

please I am guilt tripping.

I wonder if being progressive has anything to do with being a conspiracy cultist goon. You are exactly, and I mean an exact carbon copy, of those you claim to despise.

Most Americans know what Al Jazeera is but I wouldnt have cared less if they had broke the prisoner abuse story. In your blindness you totally miss the point. A BIG STORY IS A BIG STORY NO MATTER WHO CARES TO REPORT IT. Do you now get the point?

Outnumbered... Ha what does that mean. Isnt it foolish to suggest that since there is a majority of opinions similar to yours here that the way you think MUST be right. This just proves that idiots may find strength in numbers. What if bush is reelected by a majority. Does it mean that THEY would be right? No. It just means a whole bunch of people got hoodwinked!

Come at me with logic not this weak "there is more of me than you" garbage. I love a good argument.

They are certainly my words and I DO STAND BY THEM otherwise I wouldn't have typed them.

By the way I really didnt get the impression there were any thoughts being exchanged here. Maybe unidirectionally, because your crap certainly takes no thought. It is typical cowardly rhetoric. Just how much thought does it take to come up with a dumb conspiracy theory. My guess is , not much.

GIMME SOMETHIN' REAL 'CAUSE YOU AINT SAYIN' NOTHIN'.

[bushgottago]

72. WARNING - You REALLY don't want to watch it!!!

I thought I wanted to watch it because it is what happened. Having watched it - you don't want to watch it. That is something that I will never be able to get out of my had.

Take my word for it - just to know that they guy's head was sawed off with an 8 inch knife while he was alive is enough information. You don't need to actually see it.

[AlCzervik]

75. i gonna give that

a strong second, just dont do it, i did and i still feel a little sick, it's horrific, it's perverted and sub human. just stay away.

[Castilleja]

79. I think I will third it.

I watched thru my fingers toward the end, and felt ill. Bad idea.

[Tinoire]

77. Someone wants us to hate the Arabs REAL bad . n/t

[JohnLocke]

85. Nice baseless accusation.

How does "the video's disgusting, you might not want to view it" turn into "I want to cover this up. I hate Arabs"? That's bizarre.

:wtf::wtf::wtf:

[Tinoire]

96. Oh for crying out loud John Locke- that is not what I was inferring

The video is calculated to make us hate the Arabs worse than many Americans now do

and

it will be exploited to make us hate the Arabs more than many Americans already do.

Cute.

[mountainvue]

91. Yep.

Turns the tide on all the mounting anit-war sentiment.

[Eloriel]

114. AND make "torture" at Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, Camp Bucca, and all

the others seem quite okay, justified, even necessary. After all, we have to FIND those terrorists.

In fact, here's an interesting read on the very subject of "normalizing" torture of POWs:

the Pathology of the Apologists
http://www.leanleft.com/archives/002941.html

I'm with ya, Tinoire.

CUI BONO? That's the main question. So far, the answer includes the Bush administration and the Pentagon.

[Tinoire]

124. Oh Lo

Thanks for giving me my first laugh of the day! Thank you! Don't even know why but you made me laugh- thank you so much because laughter is not coming easily these days for any of us.

I'm saving that URL!

:loveya:

[meow mix]

99. i black out at scary movies

so there was no way i was gonna even try..

[Judi Lynn]

73. Just read this thread with interest, then saw this still photo at CNN

I can see why some think the guy on the right looks "American," and why they look "slangy," sloppy, and bully-like. Bad posture. Interesting.

http://www.cnn.com/

[nomaco-10]

89. It struck me as well when I saw it on CNN....

one out of five with the body language of a western european is one thing, but five out five gives alot of pause for thought when you view the video tape and even the still photos, and I'm not even a resident conspiracy theorist around here. I may be a convert with this latest visual aid.

There is something definitely askew with the body language of the photos and video excerpts when you compare and study the cultural differences of body language.

EDITED to add: The declaration of it's an Al Qaeda connection by the media, but the reports of those familiar with Al Zawahiri say it's not his voice. It just gets curiouser all the time.

[knight_of_the_star]

119. How about this?

How widely available are ski masks in the Middle East of that particular design that is commonly seen in the US and Western Europe? It seems like only ONE is wearing something that could be equated as ME garb, two look like they just wrapped sheets around their heads, but the guy in the middle and the one on his right are both wearing ski masks with holes for eyes and mouth cut into them. Just something to point out, it might be worth looking into that.

[truebrit71]

92. Before I get slammed any more as a racial profiler..let me clarify..

...On reflection perhaps I should have used the word "CAUCASIAN" instead of 'white'...

Feel free to keep stereo-typing me though...:eyes:

[rinsd]

97. "Feel free to keep stereo-typing me"

LOL...you made a funny.

[hippiegranny]

100. you have admit the timing helps bush,

takes a little of the heat off him regarding the torture. i don't take anything for granted anymore. sometimes you don't even realize there are dots to be connected. i don't think this theory should be dismissed out of hand.

[tedzbear]

101. I don't see that. They look and sound very Muslim to me.

The beheading looks and sounds very real too (slow and painful). The Arabic and victim screaming are not in sync, which makes it seem real too (unprofessional, a terrorist home movie if you will). I would think the CIA would produce a more professional, slick production if they were faking this.

Remember, the British urination photos were suspect because they were too professional and slick.

[Karenina]

105. What accent did the Arabic have?

:shrug:

[knight_of_the_star]

125. Something I noticed about the speaker

He was speaking the Arabic like it wasn't his first language. Just for background on WHY I would know that, my French proffessor is Belgian and the WAY he spoke the Arabic was in the same kind of halting fashion, putting a lot of enunciation on the words in general (I know about enough Arabic to put on a pinhead, so don't take my word for this) like he was taking extra care to pronounce them right. When someone is speaking their first language they don't do that.

[nomaco-10]

104. You're damn right they're Non Muslim.....

I just watched the video after declining to view it all day. Every mannerism and physical body type on that video is western european. The shifting from one foot to the other, the casual but yet nervous demeanor is not that of the Arab culture in any way.

I am sitting here blown away by what I've just seen, not so much the horrific execution, but who is responsible. Call me anything you want, but I know what I saw and the cultural differences are striking.

Many experts, even in America are saying that was not Al Zawahiri's voice and god help us all, I believe them.

[Tinoire]

110. Where did you view it? Thanks n/t

[bushgottago]

106. Does Orange Jumpsuit match Abu Ghraib Prison?

Looks to me like the jump suit matches the jump suits at Abu Ghraib prison and the yellow color of the walls and the lighting also match. This is very disturbing because it looks like these terrorists who have an American beer cut might in fact be Americans.

[troublemaker]

129. NO!

For God's sake... look at the jump-suit, please? It's freaking satin or silk and clearly home-made.

These guys wanted him to look like everyone in Guantanamo. (The whole beef about Iraqi prison conditions is a topical afterthought)

[St. Jarvitude]

111. I wouldn't call their mannerisms "white"I

I would call them "Western." I get the same vibes that you do - that these are not Muslim extremists - but calling it "white" wouldn't be correct - as many have pointed out, Iraqis and in fact all Arabs are considered caucasian.

But definitely, yes, there are little subtle cues in their body language which suggest they are Western: their slouch, their limp hands... just the general way in which they appear. It's hard to explain, it's kind of like a vibes thing.

Unfortunately, most people won't trust others on things like "vibes", but that doesn't mean we should just give up. Every little detail about this needs to be researched, checked, and doublechecked, just to find any slipups that may be present that are more convincing.

[truebrit71]

121. "White" was a bad choice of words..it sure got a bunch of folks here all

tweaked....

"Western" is what I meant...You know, NON-Arab...

That was my point....

[St. Jarvitude]

136. I understand

Some people take the word "white" way too literally, though. I was just trying to explain this to them.

Maybe if you had used "cracker" it would've gotten through to more people. :shrug:

[jokerman93]

120. Just Wait and See

I think this is the first retribution. My expectation is that our torture pictures have just opened the floodgates of a shit storm of violence against America that will make the atrocities of Vietnam look like a warm-up round. I doubt this needed to be orchestrated. I believe it's real and this kind of abomination will continue and intensify until the horror is at our doorstep.

The conspiracy against the American people has already occurred. Ask yourself: Does this inevitable escalating violence, coinciding with the softening up of Syria with new sanctions (step one prep for invasion), serve the ongoing Dominionist/neocon agenda?

The answer to that question should be obvious. Huston, we have our world war -- doesn't matter what you want to call it -- and personally, I don't see how there's any turning back.

We're f'cked.

[Change has come]

128. What exactly are "White" mannerisms? n/t

[bhunt70]

131. isn't it just possible their mannerisms are of someone

who is nervous about getting ready to cut someones head off?

Seeing as how very few of us have witnessed something like this enough to recognize the body language of someone about kill someone, I think it is a very plausible idea.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

132. As a language person, I want to know...

what an expert in Arabic linguistics would make of this video.

(I do not have the stomach to watch it, and besides, I don't know anything about the Arabic language except that it's related to Hebrew and written right to left.)

But I'm just thinking that if someone showed a video that was supposedly of Japanese people yelling, I'd be able to tell if they were real Japanese from Japan, or Japanese-American "ringers" or some other type of Asian pretending to be Japanese, just from the way they spoke. I would also be able to give you a general idea of what part of Japan they came from...if they were really from Japan.

I wish someone who is either a native speaker of Arabic or a very proficient speaker with a lot of experience in the Middle East could listen to the sound track and tell us if 1) the executioners were native speakers of Arabic and if so, 2) what part of the Middle East they were from.

[Karenina]

140. Tee-hee!!!

Your POST says so clearly what Truebrit blurted out in a language unfamiliar to most Americans. :toast:

[TroubleMan]

133. These guys are too fat to be our black ops guys

they're anti-American forces, but the jumpsuit and no blood in the video doesn't add up.

[Tinoire]

149. Ah but we have now outsourced all sorts of things -

[Az]

139. It doesn't have to have been US forces doing this

There are other interested parties. Chalibi comes to mind as one particular group.

As to the issue at hand. Different cultures do have different body language. Our mind can readily identify a difference in peoples behaviour based on their body language. It is however by no means an exact science. People within a culture can exhibit a wide range of bahaviours.

As to physical condition of the attackers it need not be US military involved. Compare their images with those of Bremers Security forces.

[WoodrowFan]

142. nice racist post

You pick this crap up on the Savage Weiner show??

[Canadian_moderate]

143. These guys could be from anywhere.

Muslims from around the world (UK, France, Canada, USA, etc.) have joined the various Al-Qaeda faction. Skin colour doesn't mean a thing.

Another thing. As much as I dislike GWB and his admin's policies, there's no way in hell that they are behind this killing. Get a grip folks and stop the ridiculous conspiracies.

[TheWizardOfMudd]

146. Has anyone told Bush they're not "brown-skinned?"

It is a factor he likes to consider.

[genius]

148. Based on results.... Now who benefitted from his death?

Suddenly, instead of going after Rummy, the Repugs are trying to say that the abuse is justified. The guy was last known to be in American custody and he is wearing the clothing of someone in American custody. It looks like our government might have made the hit.

Al Qaeda is not that big in Iraq and the odds are against them having picked up the guy in the brief time between his supposed release from Aemrican custody and exit from Iraq.

At the time of his supposed release,Rummy had already learned he could score big when attrocities were committed against the Americans. The Americans refused to assist the Berg family. There's a lot of suspicious stuff going on here.