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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 02:50 AM
Original message
Time to revisit a timely archived thread . . .
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=124572

. . . who's main story has disappeared down the memory hole.--->> http://www.msnbc.com/news/947673.asp Anyone know how to access google cache?

Following is what I think might be part of the missing story (found in another DU archived thread):

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has made no secret of his dissatisfaction with what he sees as unimaginative Army leadership. Schoomaker, too, is critical of a culture he sees as risk-averse and change-resistant. In comments made privately but now circulaing widely in the Pentagon, Schoomaker said recently: “Rumsfeld might think we’re at war with terrorism, but I’ll bet he also thinks he is at war within the Pentagon ... It’s a war of the culture.”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=49641&mesg_id=49641

TYY :tinfoilhat:
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 03:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you! I was looking for those!
Kind of sad reading them now and seeing how many of the "nay-sayers" in the first thread have simply vanished from DU. Guess they ran out of apologetics :shrug:

Thank you!
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm glad you found my thread . . .
. . . I was just wondering if anyone would read it. :hi:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=124572

I had forgotten about this thread but thankfully I had it bookmarked. — Apparently Rummy fired a bunch of 4 star generals and other Army brass last August. Maybe Abu Graihb is payback from the purged generals? Either that or we're being setup for why the '04 election can't go forward as planned.

This is the headline from the missing article:

The Army Cleans House, MSNBC - Putsch Purges Pentagon

snippet from the article:

"But Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita said any suggestion the moves were at Rumsfeld’s behest was “utter nonsense.” "

There are some pretty interesting posts from long time DUers in that thread. sandnsea and others . . .
_______

maryallen  (1000+ posts)
Sun Aug-03-03 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #14

16. ELEVEN 3-and-4-star generals told to pack it in??

"With MORE to follow," according to the article.

WOW!

As an Army brat, I can tell you those "old soldiers" will NOT "go quietly into that dark night."

Trust me on this one, DU'ers:
The "top brass" have learned a few things in their military careers about power and manipulation. Yank a command away from a warrior for "political reasons" and he'll/she'll come out fighting.
_______

TYY
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. I know
Edited on Mon May-10-04 03:54 AM by Tinoire
Sandsea, Tahiti Nut and others were quite astute in that thread. What a sad laugh to see certain dearly departed posters telling us we were crazy.

All of this is was so predicatable.

Thanks again! I've been referring to & searching for those stories for days. Special thanks because it put me on the track of General Shoomaker- what a piece of scum. Rummy's man & personal pick.

Gonna go to sleep now... I'm tired of General Barbara Fast & now Shoomaker!

Good-night :hi:
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 03:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. Found another copy of the MSNBC article
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Ohhhhh EXCELLENT nonconformist . . .
Thank you. :hi:

TYY
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. You're welcome! nt
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Awesome. Thanks! "Gen. Peter Schoomaker, takes over"
a dozen or more Army generals are being ushered into retirement as the Army's new chief of staff, Gen. Peter Schoomaker, takes over

Schoomaker is the one who brought in that despicable program "Warrior Ethos" designed to awaken the sleeping "inner warrior" in every PVT Lynndie out there.

=======================================

Building a Better Occupation
The U.S. Army has made some smart moves in Iraq—and some blockheaded ones, too.
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Monday, Dec. 8, 2003, at 3:03 PM PT

<snip>

The armored division's recent exercises suggest that at least some of the brass now understands this principle. This might be the first tangible sign of fresh thinking that's taken hold since Gen. Peter Schoomaker (4 star general) was named Army chief of staff. Schoomaker, who had spent two years in retirement until Donald Rumsfeld lured him back into service, was a veteran of the "shadow soldiers"—rising to the post of commander in chief for U.S. Special Operations Forces—and thus spent much of his career cultivating the fine points of the sort of fighting that the Army is now facing.

Changing an institution's mindset is a long, hard slog (to borrow a Rumsfeld phrase). The question of the hour is whether the change will sink in deep enough and fast enough to bring order to Iraq. But at least the change is set in motion.

Or at least so it seems, until we look at the latest development that's actually happening on the ground. This is where the Army's getting stupid. According to a remarkable piece by Dexter Filkins in Sunday's New York Times, roughly 50 miles north of Baghdad, U.S. soldiers are "wrapping entire villages in barbed wire." Iraqi residents can leave or enter town only if they show a specially issued ID card that's printed in English only. Another new counterinsurgency tactic, adopted in the area, is to bombard whole buildings where guerrillas have reportedly been meeting and to arrest suspects' relatives.

Both techniques have been employed by the Israeli army in its attempt to protect the settlements—with mixed results, at best. This is no mere coincidence. Filkins reports that American officers have recently traveled to Israel to be briefed on tactics in urban warfare.

This is bad business on two counts. First, it reinforces the myth, propagated by radical groups in the region, that the United States is waging a war against Islam. American officials showed they understood this danger earlier in the year—and during the first Gulf War in 1991—by going out of their way to keep Israel out of the conflict. Why are they so openly aligning with Israel—and emulating its methods—during the equally sensitive post-battlefield phase of this war?

<snip>

http://slate.msn.com/id/2092178/
=========================================

Rumsfeld's New Man
The latest move to radically remake the Army.
By Fred Kaplan
Updated Tuesday, June 10, 2003, at 4:04 PM PT


Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's reputed choice to be the new Army chief of staff—retired Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker—may be his most intriguing appointment to date, and confirms beyond any doubt Rummy's determination to foment a radical restructuring of the Army.

The first unusual thing about Schoomaker—and I should caution here that it has not yet been confirmed whether he'll take the job—is that he is a retired general. He left the military three years ago. Usually, chiefs of staff are named from the ranks of active-duty generals.

The second, and most telling, point is that, from the early 1980s on, Schoomaker served with the "shadow soldiers," rising in 1994 to be head of the U.S. Joint Special Operations Command and then, from 1997 till his retirement, commander in chief of the Army's Special Operations Forces.

<snip>

http://slate.msn.com/id/2084212/

==========================

<snip>

"The Soldier is one of the focus areas the Army will be directing its resources toward in a systematic and deliberate way in coming years," said Army Chief of Staff Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker during October's Association of the U.S. Army annual meeting.

The warrior ethos statement contained within the new Soldier's Creed -- "I will always place the mission first. I will never accept defeat. I will never quit. I will never leave a fallen comrade." -- is a key aspect of the Soldier focus area, said Brig. Gen. Benjamin C. Freakley, chief of Infantry and Fort Benning's commanding general.

"This is about shifting the mindset of Soldiers from identifying what they do as a Soldier -- 'I'm a cook, I'm an infantryman, I'm a postal clerk' -- toward 'I am a warrior' when people ask what they do for a living," Freakley said.


<snip>

http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/9_2/national_news/27068-1.html
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Great post Tinoire . . .
. . . The world feels to me like a 'B' movie anymore. "I will always place the mission first. I will never accept defeat. I will never quit." Sounds like Abu Graihb was part and parcel to the 'warrior ethos'. Gawd, who's running our country?

It will be interesting to watch how this plays out in the following weeks. Especially tomorrow morning . . . will shrub stand 'shoulder to shoulder' with Rummy or will he cut him loose? Stay tuned . . . and buckle your seat belts. It's going to be a bumpy ride.

TYY
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Check out Radfringe's thread in LBN: General saying we are losing & leave
Edited on Mon May-10-04 04:14 AM by Tinoire
A senior general at the Pentagon tells the Washington Post he believes the United States is on the path to defeat – and Rumsfeld and his advisers are to blame. The Post reports great anger is building at Rumsfeld and his top advisers among career Army officers.

“The current OSD refused to listen or adhere to military advice," the general said on the condition his name not be used, in part out of fear of punishment. "It is doubtful we can go on much longer like this," he added. "The American people may not stand for it - and they should not."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/09/iraq/main616398.shtml?cmp=EM8707

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x543866
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Back to ONE.
:kick:
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
7. I love this from punpirate on Rummy . . .
. . . in an exchange with whoYaCallinAlib in the original thread:
________

punpirate  (1000+ posts)
Sun Aug-03-03 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #24

110. Except...

... this is not a company, and we're not talking about making widgets.

Rummy has already dictated terms for how the military is to be run, and the results are out there in Iraq right now--no exit plan, few supplies, insufficient food and water, and a hostile populace intent on driving the troops out. All that is a reflection of the degree of planning Rummy allowed. The generals leaving are those who _didn't_ want that to happen.

Moreover, reshaping the existing force, in Rummy's plan, is downright dangerous--for us, and for the troops. Rummy envisions being able to fight wars at a moment's notice, around the world, and with the existing force, that's dangerous, politically, economically and diplomatically. He would also like to remove all the military in the Pentagon, then privatize the DoD with corporate consultants, presumably who will do whatever he wants.

Rummy's no military genius--he's already proven that (what might have happened in Iraq if he had prevailed, and gone in with a force of 70,000?).

I have some real problems with Pentagon planning, myself--there's waste, for sure, and too much dependency on the latest whiz-bang gadget at horrible cost, whether that weapon addresses a need or not. But, Rummy wants to run the military like a corporation, with him the CEO (because that's all he knows), and that's a prescription for disaster.

Cheers.
________

whoYaCallinAlib (1000+ posts)
Sun Aug-03-03 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #110

125. You may be right that it it's a prescription for disaster.

On the other hand, I don't know that he's not modernizing our military for the better. I don't pretend to be a military expert. The jury is still out as far as I am concerned.
________ 

punpirate  (1000+ posts)
Sun Aug-03-03 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #125

164. And, on the other hand...

... you were quite willing to make the association between managing a company and running the military, to defend what is being done now by Rumsfeld, of which you now say you know nothing. The jury is still out, in your mind, because you'd rather give the benefit of the doubt to a raving, autocratic, ideology-driven maniac like Rumsfeld who has no more military experience than three years as a jet jockey and never had a command of his own, and now believes, after ascending the ladder in the corporate world and doing essential cuddling up to Hussein for the Reagan administration, that he is the Bush equivalent of Alexander the Great.... Yeah, right.

Rumsfeld is McNamara on a steady diet of San Francisco speedballs with a little acid on the side on weekends....

Defend crazy right-wing fucks as you will. It only helps to prove the original poster's premise.

Cheers.

________

Hopefully punpirate will find this thread and check in almost a year later. :)

TYY
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Ummm...
Edited on Mon May-10-04 05:54 PM by punpirate
... am I allowed to say that my opinion hasn't changed...? Little did I know that Rumsfeld and crew would have helped to create this current situation. Guess I forgot to add monomaniacal (because I usually reserve that term for Bush).

For more information to put the torture business in perspective, I would greatly recommend everyone going to Tom Englehardt's site:

http://www.nationinstitute.org/tomdispatch/

Then read his articles over the last week or two on the subject of this administration's extraterratorial prison system. Each is a long and thoughtful look at the effects of empire-building, not nation-building.

Rummy's reorganization plan was never to provide for the defense of the country--it was always intended to more quickly fight foreign wars--and I'm a bit surprised that people didn't see the imperial tendencies in his "fast reaction forces" scheme, such as the poster above who asserts that the jury is still out.

Well, I think the jury is coming back in, and they're going to have a verdict that Bush, Cheney and Rummy aren't going to like.

Cheers.


edit typo.
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Your comments are very much in fashion . . .
. . . thanks for the new link. I hope that more people take a moment to look at the original thread from August. There were some pretty enlightened posts considering what's happening at the Pentagon now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=124572

TYY :hi:
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
12. kick
TYY :kick:
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
13. Fast moving board kick . . .
TYY :kick:
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
14. Kick for the memories on Rumsfeld's purge to put the Gestapo in charge n/t
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. kick for 'Shadow Warrior' Schoomaker.
TYY :kick:
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
16. Kick for the writing on the wall
:kick:
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BabsSong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
19. It was heavily reported in the first days of the Bush administration
that there was war within the Pentagon. The brass hated Rummy. Rummy had all these ideas of re-doing the military which was going to effect a whole bunch of brass. We can all see today just how brilliant Rummy's great plans are---thank god he didn't get to implement all that was in his plan. Anyway, there are so many military that have wanted not only Rummy but Bush gone from the get go. As time went by, there were leaks trying to discredit and bring down Bush. I was beginning to think that these guys had been totally snuffed and would not be able to rise. But these days I'm certain that they are at work in bringing Bush down. I also think people within Powell's office have been after Rummy. The crime syndicate is huddling alone tonight and wondering where all their enemies are.
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. It's probably those fired generals . . .
. . . that are coming back to haunt Rummy. Here's a link to a copy of the missing Newsweek article (thanks to nonconformist) which talks about the purge of the generals in perparation for General Schoomaker's swearing in.

TYY
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