You can't say they're not Nazis now

[Must_B_Free]

we had the characteristics of facism fulfilled and still the naysayers said - no. No longer can you say that we haven't become strikingly similar to the Nazis. It would be foolish to try to argue against the point.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. No they are not nazis

see I said it

;-)

I insist this, they are not Nazis, just fascist, there are small differences, but on the record, they are fascists.

The other reason why we should abstain is purely strategic... you know why? Goodwin's Law... that is why.

[Must_B_Free]

4. No there aren't differences.

A difference that makes no difference is no difference.

Anyone who wants to play this game and pretend something like, "well see they had a swastika and we have stars and stripes" is fooling only themself.

We have passed the point where cosmetic characteritics are relevant. What should have never happened again has started happening again. That is the only relevant aspect at this point in time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Yes, but if you go to middle murica and tell people

they are Nazis they will stop listening, now if you tell them they are fascists, they MAY listen.

As to what should have never happen is happening again, I know this very well... don't presume to lecture me, please.


A year ago I called them Nazis, I said they were Nazis I have lost peple to that discusion, and yes have you read version two of the USPA,yep the one leaked and so similar to the Enabling Act? NOT even that evidence proved it. So these days I do not use the term... unless the one I am talking wiht DOES.

It is all a matter of strategy.

And by the way, the nances are still there, Italy did NOT carry on a full policy of genocide, we have not crossed that point YET... not that we will not if we do not stop them okay.

But this is a full corporatist state RIGHT NOW, which is THE definition of Fascism.

Oh and for the record, are they getting close to crosing the line? YES, yes they are VERY CLOSE.

[Must_B_Free]

11. "they will stop listening"

Not any more. Not after they hear and see the most recent ghastly attrocities.

You say middle murica as an insult. As if these people are different than you an me. It's time to wake up, Nadine. Facism is a form of government. We are talking specifically about a replay of exactly what the Nazis did.

- Attacked a national symbol
- invaded a weak nation
- committed ghastly attrocities, both detainees and innocent relatives.

Your "behavior directive" is no longer relevant.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Apart of screamign at me, what have you done

since you are

And no middle america is still very asleep

Asked a lady today in the elevator, have you seen the heaerings today?

She complained that they pre-empted her soaps.

THey are still very asleep. You and I are awake, but they are not...

And it is not my behaviour directive, this is not yet the Holocaust... even if it can get there very fast.

And it is not a slur, it is a reality, most people are NOT awsake even now.

[Tansy_Gold]

39. My parents and my in-laws are "middle murica"

They've opened their eyes. All life-long republicans -- not any longer.

My in-lawsare from Dan Quayle country in Indiana, and it doesn't get any more repuke than that.

they hate *.

[Unperson 309]

15. We Have Crossed the Line...

You see... I always wondered just *how* the German people could *countenance* such stuff... What was WRONG with them?!!

Nothing. Nothing was wrong with them, they simply did not have the grasp of the *scope* of what their government was doing!

They heard stuff, but mostly vague half-told things taking place in foreign lands to people who were not known to them. They were NOT evil people, they were you and me, making out their daily lives, trotting along to the routine. Now and then they might stop and cluck over something someone told them in a cafe, they might notice that the family down the block had... moved away... but there was nothing concrete they could grab hold of.

When they finally heard of the KZs and the death trains, they were honestly shocked. Sickened. The German people had been told over and over that their land was the cradle of European culture, beset on all sides by countries and peoples who hated them, that they were returning to a more moral culture, finally ridding themselves of the immorality of previous years...

Read such works as Fragebogen or interviews taken at the time and you will see a decent, hardworking people who were lead, step by gentle step into a wilderness of horror.

"We had to do this because we were attacked!"
"We were betrayed in the last war!"
"We must return to morality!"
"These people will not stop until we are destroyed!"
"They hate our culture!"
"The good people need not fear the new laws!"
"Those who are imprisoned are guilty of horrible crimes!"
"These stories do not reflect who we are!"
"When this is over, the world will be free of terror!"
"Who cares what happens to THEM after what they did to us?!"
"Their culture is violent and deceitful!"
"We must rebuild our society!"

and on and on.

And never forget that Naziism did not START OUT "evil"! When the Party began, their goals were noble ones. They fell prey to their OWN successes. Anyone doing actual *RESEARCH* into the era between 1919 and 1945 would find a FAR different picture in many areas than popular imagination holds. Far different.

The end results, sadly, may become the same. And for that, I weep.


309

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. No we have not

but we are damn close

the vote in the '34 elections, for the party, bakers were cut from
their jobs, by local party leaders.

We have not gotten there YET, don't guarantee it, but not there yet

The pressure is at the top with character assasisation campaigns, more in line with Classic Fascism, aka the Italian and Japanese forms, in fact the Zaibatsus are a far better example, of the 1930s

We need to fight them, yes, but use the terms that will let you reach the common folks who have not been paying attention, and use the iamges from Abu Ghraib...

Ask Americans are we like them?

But if you use the term Nazi, due to many historical reasons, WW II chiefly, that is a (let me borrow the term from Rummy since it applies) it is a radioactive term to most americans.

This is how I have aproached it with people locally. I avoid the very charged term, intro them to the material. Once they themselves come ot the conclusion themselves, that these guys are nazis or fascists or totalitairan, always let the term come from them... then we can move on... but this is strategic

But we aren't there yet... close damn close, but not there yet

[Terran]

38. Well, genocide is a *slight* difference... (n/t)

[Must_B_Free]

45. We're there

the only difference is in how long we wait before we keep it from going further.

Look - stealing people, family members, and committing attrocities to them, perhaps murder in some cases is IT. That is the point where you are there.

Trains, camps, ovens - that's just an extention of scale. Let if go unchecked, stifle yourself from speaking the truth and the scale will increase for us too.

[RBHam]

2. Springtime In America has become Fall

The shine is off the Reich Wing Rose...

[The Traveler]

3. If it walks like a duck and

talks like a duck and acts like a duck, it is probably a fucking duck. Similarly if it walks like a Nazi, talks like a Nazi, and acts like a Nazi its probably a fucking Nazi whether it is circumcised or not.

The methods not the advertised intentions are the defining factor, eh?

So, yeah, let's face it ... we gotta fucking brownshirted duck on our hands.

[squidbro]

5. Agreed

There is a statement that "absolute power corrupts absolutely". Bush and his cabinet could easily have perpetrated the large scale atrocities that Hitler and the Nazis did in the concentration camps.

They thought they had the consent of the entire American people in carrying this horrible barbarism.

Thank goodness for people of conscience in bringing forth the truth.

To think that George Bush considers himself a Christian. What kind of hypocrisy is that?!!

I want no part of his religion or the christian right. To think that the religious right still supports Bush despite the human rights abuses.

We might as well go back to the times of the Spanish inquisition.

It makes me ill just thinking about it.

[newyawker99]

33. Hi squidbro!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[thebigidea]

7. they are NEOCONSERVATIVES. Conservatives. Republicans.

We have to make the word NEOCONSERVATIVE/CONSERVATIVE/REPUBLICAN as bad as Nazi. Demonize it ala their idiotic "liberal" campaign. Said with disdain, a slur.

But yeah, they're fucking Nazis too - all the fuckups and failed ideologies rolled into one... the Crusades meets Vietnam as directed by Goebbels.



Soon, it will be considered a shocking, slanderous thing to compare a politician to Bush.

[not systems]

8. Stop saying that! Bush is better than Hitler.

I think noecon warcrimial does roll off the tongue
as well as nazi warcrimial to it might have a linguistic
future.

[thebigidea]

17. How could I forget? Much, much better than Hitler.

http://www.terminalproduct.com/betterthanhitler.rm

[smirkymonkey]

37. At least Hitler's Dog liked him

- unlike MonkeyBoy's little 4-legged prisoner.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Now that is what I like

some real strategic thinking... use the language as they have used it

And using the world NAZI will not help the cause

[Must_B_Free]

18. We shouldn't use the word "warcriminal"

it will only alienate people...

"Warcriminal" doesn't help the cause...

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Wrong as noxious as the term is, right now people need to

hear it, and we used it with McNamara who was guilty of far less

You have a problem with being told that this turns Americans off, fine

We will politely agree to disagree

[Must_B_Free]

26. No you attack anyone one this thread who agrees

what's polite about that?

You tell they they are wrong. That's politely agreeing to disagree?

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. From history and family history

these boys are not yet showng Nazi tendencies... they are showign Fascist tendencies, you don't agree, fine I politely disagree

Are we close yes, but not there yet

Sorry, history and all that... blame it on the damn MA in history and not going from feeling.

Also blame it on realizing just how noxius this is for the discusion wth middle americans who are NOT yet awake, even with all that is STILL going on

So we should agree to disagree

You call them nazis I call them fasists, funny for the Russians in WW II both were Fascists... they may have known something here, during that war... look at history...

[not systems]

31. Amnesty demands US 'war crimes' inquiry

It appears that human rights experts disagree with you.

...
The group also urged Washington "to bring to justice those responsible for war crimes and other violations," whether they were directly involved in abusing prisoners or whether they were higher up the chain of command.
...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1104163.htm

[Unperson 309]

10. Chain Of Coincidences...

Nazis' organized early, behind the scenes, planning on seizing power.
They tried to win elections, lost, finally won, but H* came to power under a cloud of suspicion that his rule was illegitimate.

So did the Repubs.

The Nazis' plans were actually spelled out beforehand in Mein Kampf.

PNAC

The Nazis fueled popular support by claiming that their country had been humiliated, that the administation before theirs was morally weak, inefficent, etc.

Repubs said the same of Clinton.

Election "funny stuff" in Germany and US.

Reichstag Fire
9/11

Enabling Act
Patriot Acts

Defense of Marriage Act
Paragraph 175

Concentration camps (Konzentratzionslageren)on foreign soil such as Poland, Jugoslavia, etc.
Concentration camps (Detention centers) on foreign soil such as Cuba, Afghanistan, Turkey, etc.

The list goes on and on and on and on... Secret police, profiling, informants, torture, sycophantic officials, Hell, the whole damned Fuhrer Prinzip (Leader Principle) of absolute obedience up the chain of command, Absolute command downward! Flunkies willing to fall on their swords for The Leader...

H* grew increasingly out of touch with military operations while demanding impossible things of them. B* ditto.

Kristallnacht
Shock and Awe.

Lidice
Fallujah

We haven't had the Night of the Long Knives (Operation Kolibri), yet, but who knows? Who knows?

309

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Yes, but you sill cannot use this with

Middle Muricans, have tried and alienated good Muricans.

This is a matter of strategy

Now folks they are fallling on their swords and I do not care how you try to put it, as a specialist in WW II and the Holocaust this has not yet risen to that level. Are we close? Damn straight...

That is why the elections in November are so critical and I suspect, don't ask why I say this, but Junior will not reach the election in November, it is a nasty gut feeling, there are differences from Germany in '33, even survivors who have been paying attention have said this... and I mean camp survivors.

Are we in danger of Bergen Belsen and Treblynka, where fifty of my relatives died, you betcha... but remember in 1934 there was not this much resistance... and I thank this to the World Wide Web

Now have they commited War Crimes, absoloutely

Crimes against Peace? You betcha

Crimes against Humanity, HELL YES

In fact here are the sumary indictments from the IMT...



The Avalon Project : Indictment : Count One

Short version the Common Plan or Conspiracy, when you read it, replace PNAC for NAZI, and yes it saddnes me to put this up... but again, realize you cannot use Nazi, not with everyday Muricans.

III. Statement of the Offense
All the defendants, with divers other persons, during a period of years preceding 8 May 1945, participated as leaders, organizers, instigators, or accomplices in the formulation or execution of a common plan or conspiracy to commit, or which involved the commission of, Crimes against Peace, War Crimes, and Crimes against Humanity, as defined in the Charter of this Tribunal, and, in accordance with the provisions of the Charter, are individually responsible for their own acts and for all acts committed by any persons in the execution of such plan or conspiracy. The common plan or conspiracy embraced the commission of Crimes against Peace, in that the defendants planned, prepared, initiated, and waged wars of aggression, which were also wars in violation of international treaties, agreements, or assurances. In the development and course of the common plan or conspiracy it came to embrace the commission of War Crimes, in that it contemplated, and the defendants determined upon and carried out, ruthless wars against countries and populations, in violation of the rules and customs of war, including as typical and systematic means by which the wars were prosecuted, murder, ill-treatment, deportation for slave labor and for other purposes of civilian populations of occupied territories, murder and ill-treatment of prisoners of war and of persons on the high seas, the taking and killing of hostages, the plunder of public and private property, the indiscriminate destruction of cities, towns, and villages, and devastation not justified by military necessity. The common plan or conspiracy contemplated and came to embrace as typical and systematic means, and the defendants determined upon and committed, Crimes against Humanity, both within Germany and within occupied territories, including murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against civilian populations before and during the war, and persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, in execution of the plan for preparing and prosecuting aggressive or illegal wars, many of such acts and persecutions being violations of the domestic laws of the countries where perpetrated.


Count Two Crimes against Peace
The Avalon Project : Indictment : Count Two

V. Statement of the Offense
All the defendants with divers other persons, during a period of years preceding 8 May 1945, participated in the planning, preparation, initiation, and waging of wars of aggression, which were also wars in violation of international treaties, agreements, and assurances.


Count Three: War Crimes

The Avalon Project : Indictment : Count Three


All the defendants, acting in concert with others, formulated and executed a Common Plan or Conspiracy to commit War Crimes as defined in Article 6 (b) of the Charter. This plan involved, among other things, the practice of "total war" including methods of combat and of military occupation in direct conflict with the laws and customs of war, and the commission of crimes perpetrated on the field of battle during encounters with enemy armies, and against prisoners of war, and in occupied territories against the civilian population of such territories.

(Remember Rummy's statement that the Geneva Convention was now quaint and that detainees had no rights? Yes you do)

Count Four, Crimes Against Humanity


The Avalon Project : Indictment : Count Four

This plan involved, among other things, the murder and persecution of all who were or who were suspected of being hostile to the Nazi Party and all who were or who were suspected of being opposed to the common plan alleged in Count One.

[gottaB]

14. I agree 100%

My only concern is that "Nazi" might be too gentile a word for the obscenity of the Project for the New American Century.

[thebigidea]

19. paging Doctor Howard, Doctor Freud, Doctor Howard

[gottaB]

29. did I really mean "genteel"?

I suppose I should recuse myself from further discussion. Very interesting.

[PurityOfEssence]

16. Absolutely, and if anyone takes you to task for it, say "early Nazis"

We believe that our way of life is better. The administration is filled with people who openly muse about the abilities of those "whose skin is of a different color" and such.

We believe that we needn't be bothered with the niceties of civilization because these people are inferior. The religious element, although unspoken, is very much on their minds.

The Nazis only started actively killing the Jews in their later years. If you define the Nazi Party's active life as 1919 to 1945, they only started the active deliberate extermination somewhere around 1941. Up until then, they were evil fucking Nazi bastards, they just hadn't gotten to their full flower yet.

The Bushies display all of the traits and actions. Call 'em "Early Nazis"

[bobthedrummer]

49. The Nazis had started systematic killings with the T-4 eugenicists

and "Dr.'s" taking care of life unworthy of life, the mentally retarded and disabled, this T-4 program was in the 1930's well before the war.

They had enough public support for that program to ever expand it, leading to The Holocaust.

What is so different about Bush's public support, now?

[jmags]

20. I don't believe they're making muslims put

crescent moon patches on their clothes whenever they go out in public - let alone the whole gas chamber/extermination thing.

Yes, this administration is terrible and moves our country farther in the wrong direction by the day, but to say they're Nazis? When you say things like that, you make yourself look like an idiot.
Let's try and scale back on the rhetoric a little bit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Correct taht is why the fascist term works

but Nazi, not yet...

But we should work on making the word NEO CON as dirty as they have made Liberal, which is an honorable term.

[kaitykaity]

24. Becoming, maybe. Are now, no.

They haven't killed ten million people yet.

And they can still be stopped. We have the chance to
stop them this November. The Germans in the 1930s never
got that chance.

[thebigidea]

25. well, don't count your voting machines before they hatch.

Maybe I scrambled a metaphor...

[kaitykaity]

27. It is late, so scrambling is okay.

I get the drift.

I don't deny that that's a problem, but I must have faith
that the BBVers and the Secys of State of each state will
be the fix to make the theft less painless and invisible.

[Must_B_Free]

32. Are you saying

that the Nazis weren't Nazis until they killed 10 million people?

We're there. Now. Nazis.

Why wait for 10,000,000 to die?

[kaitykaity]

34. You have to save the harshest word for the harshest

crime. You cheapen the word when you throw it around. And
people stop listening when you use the word to describe Bush.

Point out the parallels.

The word Nazi didn't signify pure evil until after they
killed ten million people, yes. They were Nazis, yes, but
they weren't the personification of everything evil until
later.

[Must_B_Free]

42. "Point out the parallels"?

How can you point out the parallels and not use the word for fear of cheapening it? Parallels to what?

If not now when? What are we waitng for?

[kaitykaity]

48. It's complicated, I know that.

The point of this whole exercise is to convince the unconvinced
of the evil of the Bushies, right?

Most people in the mainstream who look at Bush don't see
Hitler. I'm sorry, but they just don't. If we want to get
our ideas into the mainstream, we have to play by the mainstream
rules.

Use fascism instead. Explain corporatism, control of the
media, use of fear and propaganda, and let people draw their
own conclusions. You know where the facts will take them,
because that's where they took you.

Another thing about the word. Using it makes you incredibly
easy for the RW to dismiss as a kook. Nobody will hear what
you say after you call Bush a Nazi.

[Must_B_Free]

50. I don't intent to call Bush a Nazi

That implies some idea of a neo nazi conspiracy gong back and paying tribute to the original thing itself.

What we are is just like them in this time and stage - like a parallel of the same phenomenon.

[kaitykaity]

51. Yes, absolutely.

That's what I was trying to get at. "Becoming." If we
don't stop them this November, we'll get there. That's the
only possible outcome.

:hi:

[Hubert Flottz]

30. We can make it sound more PC by softening the term Nazi and

we can cow down when Bushco screams bloody murder because we equate Bushism with Nazism, but the facts are still there! Even the family connections are there! The Bush/CIA connections are there and the CIA/Nazi connections are there! The CIA and torture are connected! We could call these people something other than Nazis to try and sanitize the facts, but it does not change the facts! If I am forced to choose another word to describe Bush and his black hearted regime, I guess my word would be "NEANDERFUCKS"! Is that better?

[Heyo]

35. I'l say.....

The fumes from the gas chambers down the street where they are gassing thousands of Jews is drifiting...

Oh wait a sec... that's isn't happening, nevermind.

They're not Nazi's... they're not even close, I wonder if anyone who lived in Germany in 1943 and who lives here now would agree with you.

The only Nazis left are the few punks in every city who still lace up their red laces on their Docs and beat up the hairheads at the next Dropkick Murphys show. Ahh the good ol' days.

(I was a hair head, btw.. :P )

Heyo

[Must_B_Free]

41. I wonder too

"I wonder if anyone who lived in Germany in 1943 and who lives here now would agree with you."

Gee, do you think they would be concerned about the direction this country has headed?

Or do you think they would just shrug it off and say
ehh 14 points of facism, illegal invasions, loss of civil rights, war crime attrocities committed - eh... You kids have it easy compared to back in my day.

Anyone who has any knowledge of the Holocaust has a duty to be doing everything that can right now to stop this madness.

[LSdemocrat]

36. What differentiates the Nazis from fascism is the holocaust

Until the Bush administration starts rounding up EVERY Muslim or some other minority and dumps them into concentration camps, they're not Nazis, but still a bunch of evil fascists.

[Must_B_Free]

40. What do you call the invasion of Iraq

It was only because it was the fact that it was "more Muslims" that we were able to sell Iraqi invasion and occupation. Most Americans don't differentiate between Afghanis, Iraqis, Al Queda, Muslims, Baathists, Shi-ites, Kurds and Sunnis - It's all "them" to the war supporters I talk to.

[Pachamama]

44. SUDETENLAND

[Pachamama]

43. How many have been rounded up so far? What's the Cut-off # to .....

...qualify for this status? The Nazis didn't manage to get every Jew and opponent to their evil and they are still Nazis...so at what point do we tolerate no longer their ways? Do you think the Germans and others who kept silent until it was too late couldn't answer that question? Do you think the "Coalition of the Willing Nations - aka Paid for w/ Financial Aid Nations" are starting to feel like Iraq is Sudetenland? Is Iran or Syria going to be Poland?

My neighbor was in Paris when the Nazis marched in and took over as the world watched....I asked this woman in her 80's what the Bush Administration is - SHE SAID - NO DIFFERENT THAN NAZIS...PEOPLE NEVER LEARNED...

[Must_B_Free]

47. woman in her 80's SAID - NO DIFFERENT THAN NAZIS

There you have it folks.

Quit this BS that you can't use the word. There it is, from someone who was there the first time.

[mmonk]

46. I prefer the term "good Germans"

It doesn't use the word Nazi but carries the meaning in context to history.