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TryingToWarnYou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:09 AM
Original message
How serious is a "reprimand" in the military?
Im sick to death of the pictures from Iraq....such perverse horror. Then to read the excuses coming from one of the animals perpetrating the abuse...."I was in the wrong place at the wrong time"...."they asked me to pose for pictures"...Bullshit.

Bush tells us that those responsible will be held accountable...yeah, right.

So far, its been reprimands only. So how bad is that?

Why arent these animals being tried as criminals? I damn sure couldnt treat prisoners like that where I work. I would be charged with a felony post haste.

I hate this fucking administration and their shitty policies.

I was just watching Arron Brown and saw a clip from Iraq where a US General made a televised apology to the Nation of Iraq. I didnt catch his name, but he has more balls than Bush will ever have. I applaud him for that measure. While in overall terms, its certainly no magic healing bullet for what has happened, but its the thought and gesture that counts.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. It is a career ender
None of them will ever be able to advance and will be counseled to retire

I agree with you, we need court martials, but we need court martials at the General Officer level... and not only Karpinsky, but Lt Gen Sanches and even Myers... yes I am aiming high, I know
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Rick Myers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Somebody WAY up there better resign!!!
It's a great day to have MY name!!! I agree, some General staffer has to go. Of course, Rummy is the one that should PAY for this. My favorite Rumsfeld moment.... He leaves a conference room in the early 70's, an someone says, "Typical SLIMY Rumsfeld..."

That was Dick Nixon...
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. It is not a career ender
People regularly get reprimands for getting caught in off-limits nightclubs off-base.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
2. For an officer, it ends your career.
Aside from that, all you get is an ass-chewing and a letter put in your files. But you'll never get promoted and if you don't get promoted, you have to get out after a period at the same rank. Still able to retire with benefits, if you have over 20 years.
Pretty much the same for NCOs, I guess.
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Correct. It's all about promotion.
Edited on Thu May-06-04 12:42 AM by VolcanoJen
A reprimand ends the career of any military officer. As gsh999 said, a reprimand in your file makes it impossible for you to be promoted, and if you can't be promoted from your current rank, you are of absolutely no use to the Army, or any branch. It happens quite quickly. Officers are informed of their reprimand, and they're back in civvies a day or two later. It's not that uncommon, even in times of peace, and some of the stories of officer reprimand are so stupid and worthless it would make your head spin, which is all the more reason that the officers involved in Abu Ghraib deserve one helluva lot more than a career-ending reprimand.

I'm certain it's the same for NCOs; DUer Tinoire could straighten that out for us. (on edit... I see she already has, below! :-))
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. I did... Now let's skip back to the officers
Edited on Thu May-06-04 12:56 AM by Tinoire
And only from you will I believe this because I was not that interested in officer stuff. Is it not feasible for an officer to stick around for years if he/she wants after a GOMOR? I know it ends any chance of career advancement but are they out within a few days? My understandint was that a Gomor just put your career in" "suspension" and that you could stick around until you passed the point where you'd been passed over for promotion so many times that you would then be forced out. I seem to recall some of them sticking around while troops whispered behind their backs about how sorry they were with a GOMOR and how their career was finished so why pay any attention to them. I know it's a bad thing for an office but is it an automatic discharge? Or is it a requested discharge?

My question is purely an intellectual exercise. I know you're as outraged as I am and want them to get so much more. Just wanting to learn from you ma'am ;)

Snappy salute!
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Not sure about low-grade officers...
... but it's over in days if you're a Major or higher. I would think low-grade officers would get tossed out even faster, but I really don't know. It is a requested discharge. That should be all it takes, because you are persona non grata after you receive the news. I guess some officers really do gut it out. Stupid, silly fools, really.

Now that I think about it, wartime might change all of that. They probably toss you faster in times of peace, but in war... who knows? GOD I can't wait for more officers to come home... honest, good ones like 1st Lt Paul Reickhoff. After watching him on "This Week" Sunday, I kept thinking that soon, he'll be referred to as Senator Paul Reickhoff.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Thanks for that & thanks for the info on Paul Reickhoff
Will keep my eyes out for him :)
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. Yes, they can stick around until passed over.
Might be a couple years. I think there has to be a court-martial to force an officer to resign. But I'm sure a lot of officers with letters of reprimand voluntarily resign and get on with their lives.
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erpowers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. I Think Its Two Times
From what I learned when I was in NJROTC an officer can only be passed over one time. After being passed over a second time the officer is discharged from the military. I do not think the officer has any say, they just get kicked out whether they like it or not.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. I 'm pretty sure that's the deal.
The fun part is that if you're an officer with 6 years or more on active duty, you get separation pay. You can see the figures here: http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/pay/bloffic...

I am sure that with the hue and cry over this story, they'll start throwing the book at these guys and not let them off so easily.

====
There are basically three promotion opportunities: Below-the-Zone, In-the-Zone, and Above-the-Zone. Below-the-Zone only applies for promotion to the rank of O-4 to O-6. One year before they would be eligible for In-the-Zone consideration, up to 10 percent of those recommended can be promoted Below-the-Zone.

Most promotions occur In-the-Zone. Those not selected In-the-Zone have one more chance, a year later -- Above-the-Zone (the selection rate for Above-the-Zone is *extremely small* -- around 3 percent). Those "passed over" Above-the-Zone must separate or retire (if eligible for retirement).

The two most significant factors in an officer's promotion records are inarguably their fitness report(s) and level of responsibility in their current and past assignments. Because of this, many people consider the officer promotion system to be very "political," in nature. A "blah" fitness report can result in being "passed over." Lack of current or previous assignments that had significant degrees of responsibility can also result in not being selected.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/blofficerpr...
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Yep, that's right.
If an officer got in trouble right after getting promoted to, say, Captain or Major, he will have a few years before he is in the zone for promotion to the next grade. So a Major could stick around and be employed for about eight years before he has been passed over twice. Won't get any good assignments, but could go over twenty years in the process.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. That about sums it up. Much better than I did except
that the NCOs can drag it out for years all the way to retirement if it catches them at the right time where they can "ride it out". Someone like Garner can ride it out for a while if he "keeps his nose clean" (of course his name is too infamous now thanks to the media and no board would dare promote him). For lower enlisted like Lynndie England, it's easily overcome.
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Kurt Remarque Donating Member (709 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. i've never been in the military but
it sounds like one step below being sent to bed without dinner in severity. i wonder what punishment an equivant crime in civilian life would bring?
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Rick Myers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. You are VERY wrong...
It ruins an officer, and it sets an enlisted person back 2 pay grades for life at the minimum.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. It doesn't ruin an officer (by real world standards)
All it means is that he won't get promoted & for officers, if you don't get promoted with your "peers" then your career is ruined but really, honestly, it doesn't "ruin" him. There are a lot of decent offcers who get passed over through no real fault of their own and have to eventually exit. They still get years to do so.

For Enlisted personnel, we agree but hell, I knew enlisted personnel who were set back that much for not ironing their BDUs.

It's not a harsh enough punishment.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
6. I got reprimanded for smoking cigerettes during basic
Edited on Thu May-06-04 12:35 AM by mouse7
It was while I was outprocessing after my knee injury in basic on a road march, and I was spending my days with my leg in a soft cast doing CQ duty. Trainees aren't allowed to smoke during training, and I lost what "gung-ho-ness" I had when was told I was being processed out. Anyway, I got caught outside the PX by the senior drill. Ooops. I got a letter of reprimand, I lost a stripe I had entered with because of college credits, and I lost a week's pay. I was home less than two week later, so the only thing I really cared about was losing the money.

It's certainly not a career ender for enlisted personnel. Getting caught in an off-limits bar was a more serious reprimand. You could get hit with loss of two weeks pay for that. I doubt it is a career ender for young officers either. Almost anything can keep a senior officer from getting General stars, though.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
8. Not very
Edited on Thu May-06-04 12:45 AM by Tinoire
It's one step above a counseling statement and 1.5 steps below an Article 15 (1 step below a summarized (informal) Article 15 and 2 steps below a formal Article 15).

You can get a GOMOR because some General doesn't think you saluted snappily enough, you forgot to properly secure your vehicle, or your dorm party got a little loud.

It barely means squat for enlisted personnel because, at the most, it can only stay in your file for 3 years (if it goes there at all). For officers it only means something because they're so cut throat ass-kissing competitive for promotion that 1 brown mark puts you at the bottom of the barrel & not even the army will scrape that low.

A letter of reprimand is exactly what it says- a letter of reprimand & boo hoo don't do it again, if you do it again we'll bring you up on charges. It's not even punishment under the UCMJ.

It ain't shit. It's like Bush's apology to the Muslim world- shit.

===========================

CHAPTER 16
THE MEMORANDUM OF REPRIMAND


1. Reference. AR 600-37, Unfavorable Information.

2. General. A memorandum of Reprimand is an administrative measure imposed by a commander or general officer to discipline a soldier for misconduct. It is more serious than a formal counseling statement. It is less serious than a Summarized Article 15. In essence, it is a formal expression of strong disapproval, along with a warning of the consequences of continued misconduct. A Memorandum of Reprimand should cover these topics:

a. Facts (specifics about the misconduct).

b. Reprimand (formal expression of strong disapproval).

c. Warning (possible consequences of repeated misconduct).

d. Requirement for reply by the soldier.

e. Disposition of the reprimand.

3. Filing of Memorandums of Reprimand.

a. A supervisor may recommend a reprimand, but only a commander or general officer can file a reprimand or order one to be filed.

b. Any commander or general officer can order a reprimand be filed in the soldiers Military Personnel Record Jacket (local 201 file). The filing period can be up to 3 years or until the soldier is reassigned to another General Court Martial Convening Authority.

<snip>

e. For reprimands put in the Military Personnel Record Jacket, enlisted soldiers can appeal to any commander in the chain of command. Officers must appeal to the initiator of the reprimand, or higher.

f. For reprimands in the Official Military Personnel File, the soldier must appeal to the Department of the Army Suitability Evaluation Board.

=====

Here's the example of a GOMOR:


MEMORANDUM FOR Soldiers Name and Unit (with Geographical Location)
1
2 SUBJECT: Reprimand
1
2
3 1. Facts. (The start of the memorandum should state in detail the facts of the misconduct that
cause the commanders disapproval.)

EXAMPLE:

1. Facts. At 2230 on 22 July 1989, the Staff Duty NCO, SSG James K. Green, discovered
that your section vehicle was unsecured. Later investigation revealed that you were the last
person to leave the motor pool. This is the fourth time in the past two months that you have
been reported for failing to secure your vehicle or equipment. The other dates were 25 May,
12 June, and 12 July. (See attached Memorandum and Witness Statement.)

2. Reprimand. (Next, the memorandum should clearly and forcefully state the commanders disapproval of such misconduct.)

EXAMPLE:

2. Reprimand. Such negligence is unacceptable of an NCO, and I strongly disapprove of it.
It reflects poorly on your attention to detail and sense of responsibility.

3. Warning. (Next, the memorandum should tell the soldier that the reprimand is an administrative, not a judicial or nonjudicial action. And it should warn the soldier of the consequences of continued misconduct.)

EXAMPLE:

3. Warning. This reprimand is an administrative measure and not punishment under
Article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)
. But I must warn you that similar
negligence in the future may result in more severe action on my part, such as a bar to
reenlistment or an Article 15.

4. The Requirement for Reply. (The memorandum should require the soldier to respond within a reasonable amount of time. The soldier must be told that he or she has the right to present any information in his or her own behalf.)

EXAMPLE:

4. Requirement for Reply. You must reply to me in writing within seven days that you understand this reprimand and warning. You may also submit a statement in your behalf. Include one of the following statements in your reply:

a. I have read and understand the unfavorable information presented against me, and I submit the following statement in my behalf: . . .

b. I have read and understand the unfavorable information presented against me, and I choose not to make a statement.

5. Disposition of the Reprimand. (The memorandum should then describe the commanders intentions about filing this reprimand.)

EXAMPLE:

5. Disposition of This Reprimand. After reading your reply, I will decide what to do with this memorandum. I have the option of putting it in your Military Personnel Records Jacket (your local 201 file) for up to three years or until youre reassigned outside this command.
1
2
3
4
5 2 Encls COMMANDERS NAME LINE
1. Memo, Office Symbol, date, RANK, BRANCH
subj: Title Commanding
2. Witness Statement, date

http://sill-www.army.mil/fscaod/cad/writing%20guide/16%...
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TryingToWarnYou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Unreal
This is sad. How can we be promised "justice" when we know that the punishments have already been handed out to those primarily responsible. They certainly cannot be re-punished can they?
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Actually, yes they can
Edited on Thu May-06-04 01:10 AM by Tinoire
A GOMOR can pave the way to more serious punishment. It's not required but if the scandal is loud enough, they can continue punishing you. They should have gone straight to a court-martial as they have done for numerous young soldiers caught with a quarter of pot.

This thing is being so badly handled that it's pathethic.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. They should have gone to an Article 32 in
preparation for a General Court Martial

I suspect one reason they have not is....Karpinsky is a ONE STAR

To Court Martial her they need at the very least Brigadiers, or Major Generals...

Who will try Richard Myers?

Unfricking Real!

And yes you are right the harder WE PUSH, the faster we MAY see a COURT MARTIAL where it matters.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. I'm going to keep pushing right along with you!
This reprimand business is a JOKE! I've seen officers get GOMORs for filing reports late. WTF?!!

Please tell me that Gen Myers will be tried in the court of public opinion :evilgrin:
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Generals Myers, Abizaid and Sanchez should each be relieved of duty.
Only the President can do this. Any real leader would have taken care of it by now. They'll get their lush after-general life and full retirement bennies anyhow. Nothing to lose. Get rid of them.

It's the only action, in my minds, that can begin to correct this horrific situation. You have got to start at the top, and by that, I mean the very fucking top.

I think we're only days away from Rumsfeld getting his walking papers, and with luck, Wolfowitz will be sent packing as well. But to hell with all that civilian crap. I want Myers, Abizaid and Sanchez out of uniform.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Oh ditto, ditto!
But worse than wanting them out of uniform, I want them in front of a war tribunal.

Are they really any less knowledgeable than the Nazi Generals & Industrialists?


I'm with you- start at the TOP! That's where the rotten apple that spoiled the whole bunch is!
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erpowers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. Did You Serve
You seem to know a great deal about militay punishments. Did you serve in any of the branches? What branch? Did you enjoy your time in the service? How long? What did you do?
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Yes.
Edited on Thu May-06-04 02:15 PM by Tinoire
Active duty Army. Enlisted for 20 years. I enjoyed much of it, learned a lot & met some great people, both foreign and domestic. Didn't kill any of them. What I did was classified but it was very interesting and I'm very proud of my service.

I punished a lot of soldiers in my time, got my fair share of punishment when I was a young soldier, and served on a few promotion boards.
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
18. Ya know, I keep hearing about that "reprimand"
ending one's military career, but that means nothing to me. If I did the same shit to people here, I'd not just get fired. I'd get some serious jail-time.

I was fired from a job once about fourteen years ago for telling the boss to kiss my ass, and I deserved it. It ended my "career" in that particular field. Big effing deal!

A "reprimand" for these criminals is not good enough. They need to be treated like any other citizen who tortures people for kicks. What's worse (if I may be non-partison for a moment) is that they've made the American populace seem like soulless barbarians in the eyes of the world community. We had the "high road" before. The majority of us didn't vote for the shrub and didn't care for his private little war in Iraq. The world knew that and, while having a healthy distaste for Boosh, still considered us to be less-than-savages in general.

Well, that perception is fucked, ain't it? Not only is our (mis)administration a bunch of thugs in the eyes of the rest of the world, but now we're ALL misanthropes thanks to the chickenhawk PNACers. I can only hope that we'll recover from this before I'm dead.

"War on Terror" indeed! We've done nothing aside from creating MORE terrorists. God help us all.

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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Perfect analogy. Thank you!
I was fired from a job once about fourteen years ago for telling the boss to kiss my ass, and I deserved it. It ended my "career" in that particular field. Big effing deal!

You hit the nail on the head.
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