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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:27 AM
Original message
BBV: Secret Service on a fishing expedition. They want your name.
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 08:54 AM by BevHarris
And by the way, they read every word of DU. Hi, agent Mike. This "investigation" no longer passes the stink test.

He says not to tell folks about the "investigating" they are doing.

I have cooperated ad nauseum to this absurd investigation of the "VoteHere hack" which looks to me like it is something entirely different. I'll tell you what it looks like to me:

A fishing expedition.

It appears that they may be using the Patriot Act to circumvent some of the civil rights protections laid down in the 60s. You see, it is illegal for a government agency to go in and demand the list of all the members of a group. And you can't investigate leaks to journalists by going in and grabbing the reporter's computer.

After the Diebold memos were leaked, and my web site was shut down, around the time of the California recall election, I started getting solicited to accept VoteHere software. I didn't bite, because it was obvious that this was an entrapment attempt.

Okay, a word about VoteHere: This is the company that has no visible means of support. It doesn't seem to sell anything. Its board is heavily infested with defense industry types -- a former CIA director (Robert Gates, now heads George Bush School of Government); it had Admiral Bill Owens, also Vice-Chairman of SAIC and a member of the Defense Policy Board with Perle and Wolfowitz, a very close friend of Cheney; currently headed by former Washington Secretary of State Ralph Munro.

VoteHere announced that it would be releasing its software for review, back in July 2003. It was planning to release it in September, and was supposed to do so to Dr. David Dill's web site. It never released the code, just a bunch of literature about its product. (It did release some, but not all, of its code this month, making a big splash about it). About a week into October, I got solicited with an email "click this link" for VoteHere software.

Now who would fall for that? Why would anyone in their right mind grab the stuff in some clandestine manner when it was being released into the open momentarily? And this is a company that never sells anything. Who gives a shit anyway, what its software does? It now is trying to peddle yet another alternative to a voter verified paper ballot, an idiotic solution where we turn over auditing of the vote to a handful of cryptographers who work for a private company with defense industry ties. No one I know thinks that is even a viable concept, so why would we care to examine the software these cryptographers make up?

I was in the ending stages of writing my book, putting new chapters online every few days, at that time. Like I'm going to hack into VoteHere (those who know me realize that I couldn't hack my way out of a paper bag) -- this was just dumb.

I turned down the software. In early January this year, VoteHere does a press release that it was "hacked" in October and tries to blame it on the activism community. I published an article expressing doubt that we'd gotten the whole story.

Now, I have been interviewed by the Secret Service on this VoteHere "hack" story about five times. They never spend much time on the hack. Most of the time is spent on the Diebold memos, which they claim they are not investigating.

Here's the deal: The leaking of memos to journalists is not something the government can come in and demand to investigate very easily.

Under the Patriot Act, "hacking" crimes were turned over to a new division, called the CyberCrimes division, and placed under the auspices of the Secret Service. And let me tell you what they want from me now: They want the logs of my web site with all the forum messages, and the IP addresses. That's right. All of them. A giant fishing expedition for every communication of everyone interested in the voting issue. This has nothing to do with a VoteHere "hack" investigation, and I have refused to turn it over.

So, yesterday, they call me up and tell me they are going to subpeona me and put me in front of a grand jury. Well, let 'em. They still aren't getting the list of members of BlackBoxVoting.org unless they seize my computer -- which my attorney tells me might be what they have in mind.

Also, Agent Mike told me he just "happened" to be on the plane with me a couple weeks ago. What's that supposed to do? Scare me? "You were going to Oakland," he said. Yeah, and Diebold lawyer's memos appeared in the Oakland Tribune, but guess what, Mike: That was the first hop of three on my way to Dallas. I left that morning for a speech at the Dallas Democratic Forum that evening. Never even got off the plane. Better luck next time.

They show up at interviews with printouts of DemocraticUnderground posts (not even mine -- the ones they showed me were from other DU members). And if they were really investigating what they said -- a VoteHere "hack" can someone explain why they want the logs from the web site BlackBoxVoting.org -- the "hack" occured in early October, but BlackBoxVoting.org was shut down, triggered by a Diebold cease & desist, from Sept 23 to Oct 23.

And (you know who you are) -- consider this a heads up: If you start bumbling around in my house with U.S. marshalls, the very first thing that will happen is mainstream news coverage that you are misusing the Patriot Act to get at membership lists and private correspondence for a fishing expedition on stuff that isn't even the subject of a legitimate investigation.

By the way. I need to pick up a few things so that, in the event my computer gets seized, I don't lose a whole lot of time being unable to get my work done. I've been advised what backup systems to get, need to buy them, and will head elsewhere until all systems are backed up. So, if you see fit for a small donation (info at http://www.blackboxvoting.org) this would help me very much with my temporary relocation and purchasing the backup computer stuff.

Yeah, I'm pissed. Taking the pulse of our democracy nowadays, it doesn't feel very healthy, does it?

Bev Harris

P.S. Everyone say hi to Mike.
:hi:
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frank frankly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. wow. so sorry to hear that, Bev.
our democracy is gone, but i hope it returns. in the meantime, i am glad you know how to cover yourself.

be well. keep on and keep us updated.
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ithacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
2. this is very telling
the fact that they are doing this kind of thing, that they are resorting to such extremes, is really strong evidence of some scary stuff.

What it tells us is that subverting the voting process is an important part of the strategy of the Bush regime and its allies to undermine democracy, to ensure that no matter how people vote or whether they oppose the regime's policies, the Bush regime and its allies stay in place.

Thanks for fighting this fight Bev.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:34 AM
Original message
Yeah the use of the Secret Service kind of puts this right smack
in the middle of the WH doesn't it? Maybe Bev should put out a "Bush is harrassing me" press statement?
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bearfan454 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
58. We have a winner !
ding ding ding ding

What it tells us is that subverting the voting process is an important part of the strategy of the Bush regime and its allies to undermine democracy, to ensure that no matter how people vote or whether they oppose the regime's policies, the Bush regime and its allies stay in place.

These crooks have got to go.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
134. They are bending over backwards in FL
to change the laws that prevent them from certifying BBV machines. That should also be telling.
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rooboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. Hi Mike !!!
:hi: :hi:
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The Zanti Regent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
196. Hey Mike, did you go after Clinton's Zipper too?
Thanks for letting your Boss's pal Osama get the job done, Mike.
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nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
4. just put a sign on my door...
Gone Fishin'

seriously, I wish I could be surprised by this.

but I'm not. keep us informed.

:hi: Mike!

I write WMDs (Words of Mockery and Derision) gonna take my rhyming dictionary?
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Good one!
"I write WMDs (Words of Mockery and Derision) gonna take my rhyming dictionary?"

Seriously, I've been thinking that this crowd wouldn't be so insistent on strengthening executive privilege if they didn't intend to keep the office in perpetuity.

Almost forgot; :hi: Mike. Didn't mean to leave you out.
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nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #10
61. i think i'm going to use that in my press release!
I've already got:

Come and join us for the last laugh!

and

If this run isn't limited, we're all in trouble!

but that works too.

ie. Expect an evening filled with WMDs (Word of Mockery and Derision) and big laughs for all liberals!
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Kadie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
5. You are doing GREAT WORK Bev!
Just wanted to throw in my support. I have been following your posts for awhile and just wanted you to know what a great job you are doing. THANK YOU, from us the voting public.

Keep up the fight.

Hi Mike :hi:
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
6. It's indeed true that the 'patriot' act...
...is being used in ways not originally intended by a majority of those who approved it (without reading or close scrutiny). It's one more in a series of blank checks given the Bush* administration by an obedient congress.

- COINTELPRO of the recent past has been reborn as an in your face tactic to stifle dissent and as a 'warning' to those who don't yet understand that 'everything has changed'.
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frank frankly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
7. Mike, Why Do You HATE FREEDOM?
Are you a fan of totalitarianism? Communism? Fascism?

Rigged elections are not Patriotic.

Make sure you know what you are doing. Does the FBI work for Diebold?

:hi:
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
111. Mike hates Freedom because he does what he is told
Mike may even have a conscience, though I'm sure he doesn't or he wouldn't have been selected by a corrupted Imperial Family to do their legally and ethically questionable Phony Investigations for Intimidations.

But Mike will kill you if he is told to do so. I think it is very unlikely that he would refuse a direct order from his Masters.

Also, given the Soviet-style purges the Busheviks have gone through to cement their control, it is likely that a great number of honest SS Agents have been forced out.

If Mike is still standing after that, it is very much likely that he is not one of them.

Mike?

Mike...?

I will do to you what I would do to KGB Agents, or Saddam's Mukhabarat, or any of the other organziations like the SS after the Bushevik Coup.



(yes, I know you wish you could do to me what Saddam's People did to their enemies. Keep licking the Imperial Ass raw, Mike, and you may still get to command the Right-Wing Death Squads or, as you'll know them, the Nationalized Neighborhood Watch...I know you likely find it intensely and sexually exciting)
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
8. A while back, we called the agent(s) "Pat"
because we knew they were here, but didn't want to assign a gender specific name.

So now we know that we have a guy named Mike checking us out!

Hi, Mike!

Enjoy your stay. Nobody here but us patriots.
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DiverDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
9. Just "Doing your job" eh, mike?
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 08:50 AM by DiverDave
When I was in the service, mike, I was told to question illegal orders, you see, mike, there was this guy in Mei lei, a little burg in Vietnam...
So, mike, you are obligated to not carry out an illegal order...unless you agree with it, of course.
And,mike, I don't capitalize your name, because you don't deserve the courtesy.
So do the right thing, mikey, stop this before you get into trouble.
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DiverDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Oops, forgot
My name is Dave, mike, thought I'd save you some time...
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ethereal Donating Member (191 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Bev
God help America.


Our positive thoughts and prayers go out to you, Bev.
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enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
13. Just made a donation at your link.
Bev, you and your colleagues are doing the most important work for our democracy. We need to back you up by keeping this on the front burner with our legislators and media. If it's way out in the open, these intimidation tactics become useless.

Thank you.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
14. Hello Mike
:hi: :hi: :hi:
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
15. hi mike, my name is MO PAUL
and if you need my home phone and address, drop me a line.
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truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
16. hi, Mike!
My full name is in the copyright notice on my website, www.truthspeaker.org . Give it a read, you might learn something!
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
17. Welcome to DU Agent Mike
:hi:
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wellstone dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
183. Now I know the name of the underwear
Mike.

Hi MIke.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
18. There's a long tradition in the US of the government protecting the...
...interests of capital. And that's great.

However, it just baffles me that the reaction to this BBV stuff isn't, 'hey, let's do an investigation that protects the interests of the voters and of democracy!'

I just read that other post with the quote from Time magazine talking about how the code was available on the internet. After reading it, I remembered my first reaction to the Diebold 'hack' story: it was put up intentionally by someone within Diebold so that some third party could get what they need to hack votes and an argument of plausible deniability could be made that there was any corporate policy to hack votes -- ie, if it had never been posted to the internet, there never would have been hacks in, oh, say, the CA recall election.

I wonder if that possibility has crossed the minds of Mike and his supervisors.

If not, they need to read more spy novels, because that's the OBVIOUS plot.
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kimchi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
19. Wazzup, Agent Mike?
Please be nice to Bev. She is a true patriot, unlike the squatter in the whitehouse, who is a TRAITOR!

My name is Kim, and I endorse this message.
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
20. Hey Mike!
Yup, we are all here.

Bev, you take care. Be careful and THANK YOU!
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
21. Thanks Bev To be seen as an enemy of the bush junta is
a badge of honor.


Proud Veteran, and my name is Al

Hi Mike.
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Nashyra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Hi Mike
Hope you have a new boss come Jan.
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
22. Hi Mike
Why don't you go catch a terrorist or something... or perhaps track down another school kid for drawing bad pictures of Bush.
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cmd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
24. Good morning, Mike
:hi: :hi: :hi:
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rexcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
25. Hello Agent "Mike"...
My name is Jim. I have signed the petition at www.blackboxvoting.org and I have contributed money to the organization. Please drop me a line or come over to the house to discuss the issues if you have a problem with it.

Mike, I have a problem with you and your ilk. Contrary to popular belief we still live in a democratic country and you appear to think this is a police state. We are damn close to a police state at this time. If the pendulum swings a little bit further and becomes a full fledged police state I think it will be time to re-invoke the Declaration of Independence, specifically paragraph 2 "...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..."

And welcome to DU agent "Mike" :hi:
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davsand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
26. Hang tough, Bev.
You are doing something that is terribly important. The closer you are to getting the word out the more the pressure will intensify--they don't WANT this known.

You honor everyone who ever died, bled or wept in defense of our nation's ideals by standing up in defense of voting.

Laura



PS: Agent Mike? Welcome to DU. Feel free to print this one out and distribute it back at the office:

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Dirty Hippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #26
59. Hey Mike...
Print this one out as well...
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
27. Who knows? Maybe the agents in question will read some other
threads on DU and realize a vote for Bu$h is a very bad idea.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:55 AM
Original message
Hi, Mike
And no, you can't have my name. So there.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
28. Holy Moly, Bev!
Have you contacted the folks in the Senate who are proposing the new bill? Have you contacted House members? This is TERRIBLE! Have you contacted the press? It's high time we all do that.

<<< Excuse me! :hi: Hi Mike! :hi: Welcome to DU, where true patriots come to play!! >>>

This has gone far enough. You're exactly spot on, Bev: they should be investigating those companies that are INTENTIONALLY trying to steal our votes and the criminals in State elections offices that are pushing this phony "privatized" technology on the people....just as all of us here have been aware of since the beginning. The minute we started questioning these phony elections, it was too obvious.

Come on DUers! Call the Kerry campaign, and call Dr. Dean and Mr. Byrd. This event proves what has happened in this country, in order to ABUSE the Patriot Act against American patriots, who are working on behalf of those who just "think" they're electing their officials.

O8)Bev, Andy, RedEagle, Althecat, ParanoidPat, and all the BBV Patriots: Sending prayers for your continued safety and success! O8)

This is an outrage to any freedom loving American citizen!

:kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick:



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PaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #28
64.  the players of votehere...
http://www.votehere.com/boardofdirectors.html

BOARD + Directors
Ralph Munro, Chairman
Jim Adler
Richard Green
Tom Simpson
Robert G. Wolfe

Ralph Munro, Chairman, former Secretary of State of Washington State
Ralph Munro served as Secretary of State of Washington State from 1980 to 2000. He has an impressive background in legislative, elections and government policy spanning more than two decades. Mr. Munro was instrumental in developing and implementing progressive plans making voting more convenient for citizens and improving the administrative process for elections officials.

Under Mr. Munro’s leadership, Washington State saw significant advancement in the efficiency of state election services including absentee voting, voter registration, election reporting and voter information. His notable achievements include implementing the presidential primary allowing independent voters to participate in the nomination process; transitioning election equipment from lever machines to more technologically advanced optical scan systems; designing the “Motor Voter” registration system that offers citizens the opportunity to register to vote at the same time they obtain a driver’s license; and supporting a program that allowed Washington-based Desert Storm troops to vote via fax from the Persian Gulf.

-snip-
Jim Adler, Founder and CEO, VoteHere
Jim Adler is founder and CEO of VoteHere, the leading worldwide provider of secure electronic voting. Mr. Adler is widely regarded as an authority on the subjects of cryptography, Internet security and e-voting. Mr. Adler served on California’s groundbreaking 1999 Internet Voting Task Force, has testified before state legislatures on the subject of e-voting, and is defining certification procedures for e-voting systems. He is a frequent speaker at conferences, seminars and panel discussions on the topic of online and electronic voting both in the United States and internationally.
-snip-
Richard Green, Co-founder of VoteHere
Richard Green is a co-founder of VoteHere and served as Chairman from 1998 to 2001. He works actively with management in strategic planning, business development, contract review, and technical design.

Mr. Green is a co-founder and director of KnowledgeMatrix, Inc., a producer of e-learning systems based on advanced research in psychology and brain science. He is also a director of White Mountain Stove, Inc., a producer of innovative products for the outdoor recreation market. Mr. Green is a co-founder of the Acorn Investor Alliance, a regional investment group located in Hanover, NH.
-snip-
Tom Simpson, Managing Partner, Northwest Venture Associates
Tom Simpson is managing partner of Northwest Venture Associates with 15 years of experience as a venture capitalist and investment banker building and serving successful Northwest businesses in several markets. Prior to forming Northwest Venture Associates, he was a managing director in Dain Rauscher Wessels' Seattle-based investment banking group, where he spearheaded the fundraising of more than $350 million for several of the region's most successful emerging companies. Tom is a director of Confirma, Pacific Edge Software, Sur La Table, Pet's Choice, Sightward, Telect, TeleSym and VoteHere and a former director of AdRelevance (now NetRatings), Netpodium (now Akamai) and Packet Engines. He is a board member and past-president of the Evergreen Venture Capital Association, which oversees the 40 plus venture capital firms in Washington State. Tom serves on the boards of the National Association of Small Business Investment Companies and the Technology Alliance of Washington.

-snip-

Robert G. Wolfe, General Partner, Northwest Venture Associates

Robert Wolfe brings 25 years of finance, operations and technology management experience to the VoteHere team. He is currently a General Partner with Northwest Venture Associates (NWVA), the largest venture capital fund exclusively invested in Pacific Northwest-based companies, where he previously served as Entrepreneur in Residence and Advisory Board Member.

Most recently, Mr. Wolfe served as President and COO of GT Group Telecom, Canada's largest independent, facilities-based telecommunications provider, where he grew revenue from under $2 million to $250 million (annual rate) and closed several key acquisitions. He drove multiple financings over $2 billion, including the company's initial public offering on NASDAQ and the Toronto Stock Exchange (TSE 300). Mr. Wolfe was also CFO of Trillium Corporation, a global investment firm with real estate and forestry interests, where he oversaw the firm's investment portfolio and financial strategies, including technology, retail, media and venture funds.

Mr. Wolfe has also held several senior positions with The Goldman Sachs Group, Inc. (NYSE: GS) in Asia, Europe and the US, where he provided investment-banking services for non-Japan Asia and European financial institutions. His efforts led to the first Euroyen auto-backed financing, overseeing mortgage- and asset-backed securities finance and assisting in the development of Fannie Mae's multi-billion dollar callable debt program.
-snip-


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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #28
96. Well said, loudsue
Hello, Mike. Welcome to DU world; one in which what you say is not held against you; well, most of the time.

No matter how old you are, Mike, I'm probably old enough to be your mother. My Great Great Grandfather fought with General Lafayette and General Washington to secure this country, A lot of us feel, rightly so, that our voices are vital to this democracy, if what we have left is a democracy. Dissent built this country, and dissent will save it.

Please do join us frequently and join in the discussion. We would love to have your point of view, honestly. For instance, your reasons for doing what you do?

TO BEV: Keep it shining, girl!
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tnlefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
29. Is there some way that I could also be paid to read DU?
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 10:13 AM by tnlefty
I'm not charged with the important duties of investigating crimes and protecting the president - just trying to raise my kids to be decent, law-abiding citizens, and I spend too much time here as it is but I never seem to have the time to read all of the information that is posted here!

Bev, I am grateful for your courage and commitment in uncovering the fraud related to BBV and for exposing those who perpetrate it.

Almost forgot....:hi: agent mike
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mulsh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
30. hi mike
and whoever else may be monitoring DU, you guys make me feel a lot safer.

BEV: thanks and good luck.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
31. Poor Mike-
Hey my fellow DUers, we really ought to be nicer to
Mike. Obviously he is a low man on the "totem pole"
among his colleagues. Given a rather silly assignment,
akin to "Hey Mike, go find out who stole the lunch money
from the cloak room..."
I mean put yourself in his shoes for a minute!
Think of the hushed snickering as he
passes through the office. The taunts of, "Hey Mike,
have you "nailed" that Bev Harris yet? How was it?"
The roaring laughter and high fives between
the agents with REAL assignments...
We should have more compassion for Mike; he clearly
must be the laughing stock of the Secret Service.

Mike, there is hope, if you hang around DU long enough,
you will realize that there are many situations that
need investigating and who knows, maybe you will one
day be our hero! Maybe you will decide to
moonlight on some of those cases and actually
uncover something significant, like Bev has.
Something that protects our democracy and
citizens. Isn't that what we pay you to do, Mike?
We will then laugh and remember
the first time we met you, how we made fun of you
for having to spend our tax dollars investigating
Bev, when there were clearly REAL criminals loose
in this country, posing as government leaders.

Mike, I have some suggestions of things you
might want to investigate- as a tax payer,
I think it only fair, since I have your ear and all,
that you listen to my concerns. I forgive you for
wasting my tax money investigation Bev and DU,
I realize that it must be difficult to be given such a
ridiculous assignment and that you must follow
the orders of your superiors, none the less.

Here are few things I would like to see you
investigate Mike:
1. Who outted Valerie Plame?
(This should concern you, Mike, you might be next,
as it is clear that the administration "eats their own"
from time to time...Hmmm?)
2. Where is all the missing money, I think is something
like three trillion dollars? (If you pay taxes Mike,
that's your money too!)
3. Who attended and what was decided in
Cheney's Energy Task Force meeting?
How come Cheney got away with refusing a
supeona from a federal court courier?

Other Duers have ideas for actual investigations
Mike. Feel free to jump in and ask questions.
We will help you return integrity to your life and
work.
You may have to work on these investigations
on your own time though, as it is clear that
your superiors are not interested in conducting
investigations of actual importance.
We will help you Mike.
We all have suggestions and things we'd prefer
you to use our tax money investigating.
And you could be a hero, like Bev.

Sincerely,
BHN
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frank frankly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. right on, sister!!!
fantastic post.

read it twice, Mike. be a hero.

do you understand that we love freedom and democracy? what does Diebold love?
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #31
38. Feeling a little spunkier today. Atta Girl!!!!
Hey Mike, if that is your real name, welcome to DU.............NOT!
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tnlefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #31
43. Who is responsible for mailing anthrax? Ricine? What is the motive?
What about that intern in Joe Scarborough's office? John O'Neill? John Baxter? The woman in TN who was involved in driver's license fraud and was burned in a car?

Why isn't Kenny-Boy Lay in jail yet?
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
112. I disagree. Intimidating critics is Job #1 for Totalitarian Monsters
Whatmakes you think the Bushevik Scum are any different?

I think Mike is probably NOT a Rookie. In fact, he is probably a Bushevik Loyalist who has done wetwork and other illegal work for them.

Don't "suicide" Bev, Mike. Better make sure she doesn't die mysteriously in a small plane crash nor get the "Karen Silkwood" treatment.
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #112
121. Very Unlikely
It would, after all, validate everything.

Kind of like Diebold's cease and desist.

Besides, that would be really, really ugly press.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #121
144. I hope so. You are probably right
but I have come to expect the Busheviks to exceed my worst expectations and they have yet to disappoint, sadly.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #121
163. I don't think you can consider the press a threat to the Busheviks
Our Formerly Free Press is now comprised of a very small minority of honest jounralists, who pale in scope and reach and influence to the much larger and lazier (and easier to control/infiltrate/censor/parasitize/distract) Corporate TV Pravda, and also the Bushevik Party-Loyal Sub-Media which is like unto the Soviet and Nazi Press and so will be no help and in fact daily harm the Liberty Movement.

You are correct, but I'm not sure even THAT will stop the them.
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
32. What is Mike's last name?
I want to address him properly. You know, like, "Hi, Mike Plame!"
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Room101 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
33. Mike, you are the a modern day BROWN SHIRT
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 10:12 AM by BEFOREATHOUGHT
Your disdain and hatred of freedom is something Hitler would have admired.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
34. Why would the Secret Service feel honest voting is a "threat" to Bush?
How ODD.

Please explain SS since WE pay your salary.

Please explain since the Constitution allows for citizens' votes to be counted and recounted if necessary.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. In a closed society
nothing is left to chance.
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Gryn Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
36. Hi Mike, I'm the one who donated 21.34 just now.
I work in computer security at Cisco Systems, Inc. so I happen to know quite a bit about cybercrime. I'd love to have you over for coffee and educate you a bit about the various computer crime laws on the books since you apparently don't have a firm grasp of them.

To Bev, if you need any assistance (particularly technical) I'd be delighted to help out any way I can. Just reply to the guy who donated $21.34.

Cheers
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revcarol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
39. Hi, Mike or "Pat":
Aren't you ashamed that the fine Secret Service which has sworn to protect the President and our money is now on a mission to subvert democracy?

Bev, I hope you have some unintimidatable security around you protecting you. And I hope you can subvert the "sneak and peek" parts of the Patriot Act.

This is really chilling.
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Quahog Donating Member (704 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
40. Let's get Mikey to try it
Hi there Mikey-boy. Welcome to DU.

Quick question: how do you stand to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning? Are you utterly without shame? Didn't your parents teach you ANYTHING?
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
41. Hi Mike.
:hi:

Consider your stupid assignment on election day. I would be interested to know if you think your vote actually counted or not.
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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #41
129. mikey won't vote on election day
he knows it is pointless.

but we are going to change their tune.

hi mikey! stick around. this place is incredible. you will find out a lot that they even THEY haven't told you.

:hi:
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meg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
42. Please contact all three of your congress critters
about this, if you haven't already done so. Can you tell if they have already done a 'sneak and peak'?

Oh, yeah, Hi, Mike. Mike, did you know that suppressing Democracy is NOT your job?
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klook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
44. VoteWhere?
Bev,
First of all, I want to say that I appreciate your efforts to make sure voting systems are accurate and fair. Democracy needs all the help it can get!

By the way, Agent Mike :hi:, if you are looking for hackers who may have broken into somebody's network, I don't think this is a good place. Judging from the posts I've seen, most if not all of this group's members are 1) too technologically inept and 2) too conscientious and/or smart and/or paranoid to try hacking into a computer system. I think if you check around, you'll find that--if they are politically aware and are American citizens--programmers are most likely Libertarians or Republicans, not Democrats.

Anyway, this is the first I've heard of VoteHere. I was thinking maybe their offer of downloads would implant some spyware on your system (I may be conscientious and semi-smart, but I'm also paranoid!).

It seems plausible, though, that VoteHere would release their open source code to software programmers and other technologically savvy reviewers to help them find bugs and security holes. I'm guessing the reason they didn't release the code the first time around in July is that it wasn't ready yet. As I'm you're aware, delays are par for the course in software development.

According to this article, there may be some value to VoteHere's method:
(Vote Here CEO Jim Alder) said the VoteHere method ensures the accuracy of the machines in a way that is more secure than a simple paper receipt. Here's how it works: Next to each candidate's name on the ballot, a random code appears that changes for each voter. After making their selections, voters receive a printed receipt containing their unique codes, along with encrypted information that assures that the codes match the correct candidates. Once the voters verify their votes, they cast their ballots on the machine. After the election, voting codes appear on the county website so voters can see that the codes on their receipts translated to a counted vote. While the county tallies the votes, the public can tally them independently as well.

Adler said nonpartisan watchdog groups and computer scientists also could verify the results independently in this way to ensure that no votes were lost or changed.


So this meaans you'd get a paper receipt, but instead of stating that you've voted for a particular candidate, it includes a code that's unique to your vote, and that can be looked up later for verification.

Maybe I'm missing something, but that sounds to me like it might work. My biggest concern about BBV has been that the machine could just give you a receipt saying "Doris Smith's Votes -- President: John F. Kerry; School Board Referendum: Yes," etc. But there'd be no way for you to verify later that your vote was really recorded that way, and not changed. You'd just have a slip of paper saying you'd voted that way.

That would be like getting a receipt from the ATM saying you'd withdrawn $50, but never being able to verify that later via the web or a printed bank statement.

The VoteHere procedure described above--using a code that can be entered later on the county web site to display your vote--gives me a lot more comfort. Granted, the web site could still show you a message saying you voted for Kerry but record a different result in the background, but that would require criminal tampering, and I'm not sure any system will be completely immune from the possibility of criminal tampering.

But the Open Voting Consortium ballot seems to do the same thing in what may be a more user friendly fashion.

I guess I need to research all this some more to better understand the various proposals being offered. I do believe that a paper receipt of some sort is a must, and so is a secure way for voters to verify the accuracy of their selections later.

Whether anything sufficiently accurate and reliable will be available by November 2004 remains an open question.
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Gryn Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. Hey! I resent that remark!
...programmers are most likely Libertarians or Republicans, not Democrats.


I am both a computer developer/architect and I haven't voted for a republican or libertarian in my life. I'm not that rare either.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. Me too!
and I also have never voted for any candidate other than a Democrat.
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klook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #50
71. OK, sorry!!
I just live in a benighted area, I guess. Please accept my apologies for slandering your profession. I take it back and will not tar your ilk with that broad brush in the future.
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #44
72. Klook- VoteHere no Solution
Hi, nice to see you involved on the voting issue.

The real problem with non-people verification schemes is the lack of- people. You boil down the ability to audit to an elite few. (Those who know and can check the code)

Even David Dill said he could never back a system that left auditing to an elite.

Democracy= the ability of anyone in the electorate, with normal mental capacities, to recount (audit) an election.

You can't draw people at random out of a crowd and find anyone who can audit schemes like this.

You can't verify that the program being promoted is the one being used- witness all the non-certified programs used in elections now. The average election official simply can't do that.

What appears secure today is not secure tomorrow. One of Murphy's laws, I think.

Honest people may develop the code but it gets placed in many, many hands with lots of access along the way.

There is no way to insure that a Diebold, "double-book" system isn't running.

Look up "Spoofing." Keep in mind that Robert Gates formerly of the CIA and now of VoteHere, supposedly was a CIA specialist in computers. (Don't have that article at hand at the moment) You could spoof the entire validation scheme thing.

Validating a vote is not validating an election. Validated votes are used to validate an election, by hand counting them.

Technology cannot be audited by technology- and that is what we are asked to believe here.

It is NOT too late for November, 2004. This country can do anything it wants to and we can hand count this election if enough people made it a priority. All of Congress should be calling for this election to be only of the presidential, congressional, and state legislative races to be voted on paper ballots with either hand counting or robust auditing of optical scan or punch card ballots. Surely some of that HAVA money could be spent making sure we don't have another Florida, after all, that is what HAVA was supposed to prevent.


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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Hey, Mike? Protecting our Vote is our Right
By the way, Mike? Contrary to what some people might think, a lot of us came to the same realization at the same time- that something was very, very wrong with voting systems in our country. Bev's been a focal point, but people like myself were becoming involved and investigating before we knew Bev. Something about "total computer voting" rang a lot of alarms for a lot of people.

We are just ordinary citizens defending our democracy. This is a grass roots movement. That's probably the biggest stick in the craw of those who would stop it. Some of us happen to care about democracy and the country our children will inherit. Kind of hark-ens back to another time, a renewal of the dedication to freedom and true patriotic spirit kindled and fed by people like Thomas Jefferson. It is our duty as citizens of this country to protect our country, from without and within, whenever our freedoms are genuinely threatened. It's our duty to rein in government when it does not act in the best interests of its people. That doesn't happen to be breaking the law- it's working within the law to maintain democracy.

Trying to inhibit our rights to dictate the course our government is taking is very much against the law and is, in itself, a terrorist act.

We just might save this democracy, not only for ourselves and the future, but for you, too.

There's a big problem if O'Dell whined to his friends to put some heat on people who dare to show the defects of his voting systems, let alone using federal government agencies to do that. Perchance do we have a government/corporate/terrorist strategy here?

I don't envy you your job. I imagine you could use a hug right now...
:hug:

Intimidation tactics will just get you what you don't want. Anything more will be evidence of suppression of our rights to a fair and honest vote and our rights as citizens to protect that when government fails.

I have relatives who fought in wars and died for our freedoms. I honor them by fighting for the freedoms they died for.

Have a nice day.

:hi:
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
45. Hi Mike!
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 10:33 AM by Walt Starr
:hi:

Dear Mike,

Why do you want to allow our votes to be usurped to instill a dictatorship? Do you hate us for our freedoms? Are you a terrorist wannabe? Why would any American be so treasonous as to sellout our most sacred right, the vote?

To Bev,

Thanks for being a true democracy loving American Patriot. The Mikes of the world need to be tossed into the rubbish bin of history with the likes of Adolph Hitler, Goering, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, and yes, George W. Bush.
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bearfan454 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #45
53. You said it all there Walt Starr.
.
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imax2268 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
46. wow...that's to funny bev...
HI MIKE...:hi:
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bearfan454 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
48. You go Bev !
Hey Mike, guess what ? We are going to stop the illegal vote stealing you are trying to protect. No matter what you do or how much money you spend, we are going to beat you. We will win. You will lose, no matter what. You got that bucko ? I hope so because it is going to happen no matter what you do. And guess what on top of that ? Fuck you !
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spotbird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
49. Bev, to restate the obvious if they are trying to stop you through
intimidation and threats your work truly is threatening the power structure. Since your work is devoted to free and fair elections there is only one conclusion about the purpose of your adversaries, and it is not that they also support free and fair elections.

For some reason I just didn't think what the administration was up to would become so clear. In the back of my mind there was the sliver of hope that they really weren't trying to steal the elections, I think it's called denial. Denial is out of the question now.

You are quite media savvy so I'm sure you're trying to get some mainstream interest in what is going on, likely they are intimidated far more easily than you so it will be an uphill battle. Since the government has so much control over the press plays perfectly into their ability to fix the elections.

If they do subpoena you, have your lawyer get in writing that your are not a subject of the investigation. As far as I know they still can't compel you to testify against yourself, but that could change in the name of national security and the need to fix elections also.

Bev, we will pray for you and all of us. Things really are as bad as we think they are.

And Mike, try to find a place in your heart that values what is most important to this country and use that thought to help you to do the right thing.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
51. kickity kick....
:kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick::kick:
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
52. BTW Mike,
My name is WALT STARR, and make sure you get it right. There are two R's in STARR.

And no relation to Ken, Bart, or Kay. My father's original surname was Szczerbowecz. He changed it while serving his country in the United States Marine Corps.
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jackstraw45 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
54. What a country....
If only we had SOME sort of protection...maybe a document - constitution-like in nature, to protect us from Big Brother...

Oh wait. I thought we did.

THIS POSTING HAS BEEN Secret Service Sanitized FOR GOP PROTECTION BY THE USA PATRIOT ACT
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. And people make fun of me
for wanting to move to New Zealand.
It is a pathetic day in Amerikkka indeed,
when THIS is how our tax dollars are spent.
OUR public servants spending OUR money
to investigate US?
Oh, I feel so much safer now.

BHN
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Streetdoc270 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #54
100. That would never work
What we need is a bill that would outline a number of rights that everyone could follow, naaa I don't think thats a good idea either...




:wave: hi Mike!
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GiovanniC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
55. Hey Mike
First, welcome to DU.

Second, if you'd like my name, address, phone number, email, date of birth, social security number, blood type, hair/eye color, height, weight, marital status, drivers license number, vehicle make/model/color, or anything else, you just feel free to send me a message, all righty?

Third, if you see fit to send me to Guantanamo for everything I do to subvert democracy, you go ahead and bring it on. My family has been instructed on what to do in that event, and they won't stop until they've brought down everyone from Rove to Cheney all the way down to Bush and you.

Fourth, have a great day.

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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
56. Kicking to keep with
The "investigation suggestion" thread for "Mike."
BHN
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
60. Hi Mike - Isn't Good To Know You Are Traitor To The Constitution!
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 11:40 AM by mhr
Enjoy your stay in hell Mike.

I hope you get the slow BURN!

PS - Mike I truly look forward to your vist so I can slam the door in your face. That will be a sweet pleasure. As well, it sure wouldn't bother me a bit if your nose was a little too close to the door when it happens.
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cclark401 Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #60
65. This is truly sad.
Mike you should be ashamed of yourself. Why in the world would you subvert justice and freedom? Like a previous poster said...hope you have a new boss come Jan. (Or better yet--hope you're looking for a new job come Jan. The good ole USA certainly doesn't need the likes of you "looking after" our interests!!!!
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #60
113. Dante's Inferno
Isn't the hottest circle of Hell reserved for traitors?

But you're just following orders, right Mike? Shame on you for harassing Bev!

(Bev, don't let them get you down! They're SCUM.)
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Bushfire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
62. Want my name Mike?
Become a paying DU member, and send me a PM. It would be a lot quicker. :hi:


Bev, the check is in the mail. Keep fighting.
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ACK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
63. Hello Mike
I am a hacker not a cracker. I do not crack (break into) systems. I hack code (that is write code in an artful manner) and run systems and have done software configuration management.

I am also an active Democratic contributor and volunteer.

Mike you can bite my left nut you tin-plated fascist pig.

Thank you.

+
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
66. G'day Agent Mike!
If you are ever in town and would really like a good old Australian home cooked meal, drop me a line, would love to have you over for dinner.

Think of the wonderful dinner conversation we could have. I could teach you so much about the truth, and you can tell me the stupid things, Bush* does, when the reporters aren't around. Oh! Wait a minute, there is probably nothing you can add, he does stupid things when they are around too! :evilgrin:
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
67. Hi, Mike!
Have a nice day. :)
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
68. Some things don't change, do they.
He says not to tell folks about the "investigating" they are doing.

In another Republican administration, Eisenhower's, at the height of the cold war and shortly after the McCarthy hearings, I was investigated by the FBI. They interviewed everyone I knew including my parents and told them not to tell me.

The reason? I was subscribing to an English version of a Russian magazine through a distributor in London, England. The magazine was wrapped in a plain brown wrapper. I was able to get it through a friend of mine in England because at that time I thought is was an interesting piece of Soviet propaganda for my World History Class.

My teacher told me the FBI had contacted him too. Questioning everyone in my orbit I was able to get them to fess up that the FBI had questioned them. I was shocked, not so much about being investigated, because it is their job after all, but the fact that the government was reading my mail!

I hope you document every conversation and every event about this investigation for the day you may need it in your defense. Best of luck Bev. You are doing a real service. People like you are the real patriots here.

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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #68
75. my "hi mike" post
hey, dude, if you ever get hit with insomnia, feel free to rifle through my mail :boring: and i really would appreciate it if you paid a few of the bills while you were at it.....

thanks, pal!

oh, & before i forget: hi mike :hi:

dg

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #75
87. Good one. They can pay my bills too.
eom
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #75
120. An update, Mike
:hi:

um, i'm really sorry i diverted from my normal route this afternoon. O8)honestly, i wasn't trying to dodge you or anything, but i did remember that i have a baby shower to go to tomorrow & i needed a gift, so i swung by target...btw, did you see the really great sale they had on women's shorts & tops? thought you might want to pass that info along to the missus, cuz the sale ends saturday.

so, again, sorry i didn't go home the "normal" way today.

laters, agent mike!

dg

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linazelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
69. Get a life Mike you traitor n/t
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 12:00 PM by linazelle
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
70. Keep the faith Bev...
and mike, I think Johnny Cash says it better than I can.



RL
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TinfoilHatProgrammer Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
73. a word about web site logs
You crack me up.

For the record, all the logs and forum messages from your web site aren't even on your computer -- they're on your web server and/or backed up at the data center that hosts it. If the secret service actually wants that information they'll surely just call up your pals at Gator Graphics or their ISP to request it. ;)

Be sure to post an update from your secret hideout, along with a reminder of how everyone can send you money (and how much exactly you need). I'm looking forward to the next hilarious update! :D

JC :tinfoilhat:
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. Which means, of course
the weblogs aren't what they really want.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #73
80. For the record...
...all the logs and forum messages from your web site aren't even on your computer...

How do you know? Did you look?



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TinfoilHatProgrammer Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. How I know...
I know where the logs are because I am familiar with how the internet, web pages and forums in general work. I am very familiar with how DCForum works, which is what Bev uses on her site.

If you are not familiar with how these things work, I would suggest doing a Google search on servers and the like and perhaps checking out the info page on the DCForum site.

As for your question about whether I looked... no comment. ;)

JC :tinfoilhat:
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Fud Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #86
103. Looks like a plead for money
If you really did know anything about computers you would just tar gzip everything and put it on a hard drive at HOME.Now you are asking for money telling people the SS spooks are after you?

How about this one of my monitors got blown out by an EMP pulse,please send me money to repair it.I know who did it there were a couple of guys in dark suits sitting in my driveway for hours talking in walkie talkies.

So i called up James Gandolfini and said i need help.He said he wanted a 2% cut and i'm like fuck you.

So the next day a couple of mafia goons show up and beat the crap outta me just for dissing the boss.

Time to line the whole house in lead just to be sure.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #103
104. Oh look
another paid shill...How do I know...you show up on cue. Didn't the lawyers docs say something about watching certain web sites to get intel?

You are quite transparent.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. Hi Mike
:)
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #104
179. nah, tinfoilhat just brought along her one and only friend!
n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #103
108. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #103
130. It's been my experience...
...that the more a person knows about computers, the more likely they will be horrified by paperless electronic voting, especially when you show them exactly how the current machines are put together.

You know, I don't think I've ever used words like "tar gzip" (or the much more impressive "TCP/IP") here on DU because to most people on this forum that's merely noise. A few might be impressed, but most will simply shake their heads.

In any case I have great respect for Bev, even though I try to stay away from her "team." She will often light fires when everyone else is standing around complaining about soggy matches.
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #73
84. Hey THP! Thanks for the Confirmation
We were talking about this yesterday, right after Bev got the call because it was all so silly on the part of the agents- why ask for stuff they can get if they want? What was the point?

Besides, Bev doesn't have the stuff they've asked for since she didn't have access when the site was down and has yet to get those records back.

Looks more like an intimidation game all the time.

By the way, you've been gone for a while. Down in California for the party?
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TinfoilHatProgrammer Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #84
91. As always, happy to confirm it.
As silly as the (alleged) agents are, even sillier is Bev fretting over web server logs from a period when the web site was down. If the web server is down, there obviously won't be any web server logs.

And if, as you point out, Bev doesn't even have the stuff the (alleged) agents want, it really begs the question of why exactly she needs more money to back up this non-existent data.

Sorry I've been away, I know how quickly the disinformation spreads when I'm not here to correct it. The sad (or happy, depending on your outlook) truth is that unlike most of the BBV crew I have a job, family, and other things that keep me busy most of the time.

Of course if you'd like to make a donation, the family and I'd be happy to visit CA on official business with a guy named Mickey. ;)

JC :tinfoilhat:
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. The data isn't non-existent.
The feds don't want the weblogs from Bev because she doesn't have them.

They obviously want something else.

It's the other EXISTENT data on Bev's computer that she needs to back up.

I am not aware of any information Bev has shared with us that has been turned out to be untruthful.
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Timefortruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #92
109. He doesn't sound too concerned about truth. nt
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. I Guess it Looks Silly if You're Not the One Being Asked all the Questions
"As silly as the (alleged) agents are, even sillier is Bev fretting over web server logs from a period when the web site was down. If the web server is down, there obviously won't be any web server logs."

(Was the site really down, or only inaccessible to Bev? We don't know the answer to that question. Those logs have been inaccessible to Bev and they are her property. With your knowledge of the web and all, perhaps you can suggest ways to get them back, short of lawsuits. Even if the server was truly down for that period, and nothing logged, there is still the issue of access of the owner to the prior records that have also been denied to her)

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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. Tsk, Tsk, Now We Engage in Slamming All the BBV'ers
"The sad (or happy, depending on your outlook) truth is that unlike most of the BBV crew I have a job, family, and other things that keep me busy most of the time."

THP, that was totally out of line. Plenty of people here put in hours above and beyond the hours devoted to jobs, family, and 'other things' to work to preserve democracy.

You may have a particular axe to grind with Bev. That's your problem.

Don't put yourself on a pedestal where it regards the people who are fighting for our right to honest voting.

Whether those efforts come from people who have jobs or those who are semi-retired from work and have taken on this task, put-downs are unwarrented.

I can think of no finer way to expend time and effort for those who are not working and I appreciate those who do work and make time for this effort.

What have you done for BBV lately, other than find time to denigrate those who are working for your right to honest, accountable voting?

I'll help you write legislation for your state, if you'd like to get involved at the level that will insure the protections we seek become law. Not all of us are in the most public aspects of this and work hard behind the scenes. Want to contribute? I'll help you.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. RedEagle...
TFHP is part of the problem, because he certainly is not part of the solution.
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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #97
131. he certainly is not part of the solution
HE'S BAAAAAAACCCCKKKKKKKK. and of course not a part of the solution. no change there.

and not only that, he is PROUD of it.

but he's fighting a losing battle, and he knows it.

if he's cute, give mikey a kiss for me, ok TiffPuh?

:)
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #91
136. Hi TFHP!
Thanks for the excuse to :kick: this!
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #91
161. a "fishing expedition" is where authorities grab up as much stuff as they
can in the hopes that they net a "fish" or two. That "fish" usually being some minor law being broken that the person didn't even know they were breaking.

Some folks with a bunch of power want to shut down the debate over the problems with black box voting. They are fishing for an excuse.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #73
181. No shit
Under the Patriot Act, "hacking" crimes were turned over to a new division, called the CyberCrimes division, and placed under the auspices of the Secret Service. And let me tell you what they want from me now: They want the logs of my web site with all the forum messages, and the IP addresses.

Where, exactly, does that sentence imply that the logs are on Bev's personal computer?

I admit I am not familiar with BBV.org's hosting arrangement, but whether or not the ISP in question would have the authority to release those kind of logs to the Secret Service.

Now, as for actually seizing Bev's PC, that almost certainly has nothing to do with the web logs they are requesting.
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #181
182. That's Why it Looks Like a Fishing Expedition
If they want the ISP's, they're not even asking for the right stuff. They don't know what they're looking for and don't seem technically savvy enough to figure it out.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
76. Here's a relevant article
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4856599/

ACLU battles FBI over ISP customer data
Originally an AP story.

"WASHINGTON - The American Civil Liberties Union is challenging the FBI’s use of expanded powers to compel Internet service providers to turn over information about their customers or subscribers.

A lawsuit challenging secret FBI national security letters was filed April 6 in U.S. District Court in New York but not made public until Wednesday because of its extraordinary sensitivity."
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CrownPrinceBandar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
78. Hello Agent Mike..
I'm Foamdad. Please don't be shy, say something.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
79. Hi Mike...
looks like everyone here is in agreement.

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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
81. Mike, I'm reading my daughter 'Animal Farm'. Investigate me!
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
82. Hello Mr. freindly Neighborhood Agent Mike
These are the people of your neighborhood
of your neighborhood the people that you see each day .

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neverborn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
83. Bev, contact the ACLU.
:hi: Mike
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
85. I'm in Seattle - could help you if you need it
I'm graduating from law school next Month...
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nostamj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. rumguy!
sign up at www.blackboxvoting.org (Bev's site)

there's an activism forum seeking ALL kinds of assistance.
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. I'll check it out
thanks
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
90. kick
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
93. kick
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
98. Hi MIKE!!
:hi:

You've hit the jackpot with me. A liberal AND a homersexual!
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
99. Kick
BHN
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The Spirit of JFK Donating Member (528 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
101. Great use of "thin" federal resources
White collar fraud run amok, corporate collapses funded by the taxpayers, misdoings in the Catholic church of the highest order, possible (dare I say probable) criminal and treasonous activites by high ranking members of the government, government officials questionable ties to business, hundreds of millions of dollars being charged fraudlently to government credit cards (watch your spending, Mike!)....

And from what we have been hearing lately, homeland security, the FBI, and the CIA say they are too understaffed and underfunded to deal with terrorism. This ain't gonna make me feel any better about their resource allocation abilities or their priorites, And it doesn't help their case. It absolutely reeks of politics and fear. You know you are getting somewhere wehn they pull this crap and at this point in time.

Now poor Mike is just doing his job...just like the troops in Iraq. If I was Mike, though, I would be wondering what the hell I was doing working here. "Yeah, I'm trying to plant something on a woman who wants to ensure voting accuracy." Nice.

Wecome to Amerika...now shut up and behave.


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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
102. Welcome to DU Agent Mike
Look around. Read. Learn. :hi:
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
106. Tinfoilhatprogrammer is back
:)
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #106
107. he always shows up
just in time.

:eyes:
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Fud Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #107
127. I have a good idea why
From everything i read from TFHP he knows what he is talking about.I can't say the same for other armchair sleuths that picked a dummies guide to windows and all the sudden they think they know everything.

Hey maybe i should ask for a donation too from a server i work on that got swepped up in a massive raid where the FBI took every machine on a server farm because of one user.

Just look up foonet on google and you will see.I got my data back but never thought that would happen(my mistake).There was nothing important there just some web pages thats why i didn't back it up.

The owner got an image back from the feds after keeping thousands of sites for over a month.

But i have to laugh when people say stuff to TinfoilHat when they don't have the foggiest idea what they are talking about.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #127
158. Yeah - the Diebold defenders are real tech whizzes...
Remember Frieda who said that the first thing she does when she inherits a new project is to remove referential integrity from all her databases? Such prowess - I'm all a twitter.
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LynzM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #158
168. Erm, pardon? REMOVE referential integrity?
WTF would one ever do that, excepting that said one wanted to jack around with the data and not have it be apparent somewhere else?
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #168
169. And have you seen this???
Here's why no referential integrity....

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00065.htm
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LynzM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #169
170. Yeah, and it scares the crap out of me!!!
I work with database stuff, albeit on a small level, but still!! Even my silly little database has ref. int. built in ALL OVER THE PLACE! This is positively absurd. Even having multiple places to store the same data is absurd. One of the main tenets of building a database is that you don't repeat information, if possible. If it needs to be backed up, it'd in a separate database, not the same database in another table... GAH! (Someone who works on larger databases can chime in and correct me, if I'm wrong about that?)

Scary, scary stuff out there. Wow.

Rock on Bev, keep spreadin' the word!

Oh, and 'Hi Mike'!!
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Salviati Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #127
172. The thing is...
that you DON'T need to be a computer whiz to understand the problems with computer voting. The fact is that unless we are able to see the code, examine it in detail, and then have absolute security on these machines between the time that the program is installed and the vote takes place, then there is no guarantee at all that what the voter registers as thier choice and is displayed on the screen is at all related to what is recorded and counted later.

Any method where the average voter cannot interpret and confirm the physical and legal record of their vote is inherently suspect.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #127
201. My GOODNESS,
how apt your nick is!

How very apt indeed!!
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
110. Mike, you SS Nazi fuck. C'mon over and interview ME!
I always wanted to see if I had the balls to tell a Nazi fuck to "Fuck off!"
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vetwife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #110
114. Hi Mike//Where was Bush in 72?
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
115. Mike: Tell your 'prez' to get his foot off our necks and the Constitution.
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
116. Good morning Bev & Mike! (You too Bob and the crew at Jones Day!)
Mike, are you the guys that keep spuriously shutting down my computer every time I start getting anything done? If you PM me I'll be more than happy to give you my contact info but I suspect you know quite a bit about me by now. :)

Do you really have a problem with American citizens exercising their rights to address their elected representatives over our concerns about the possible subversion of our electoral process? Are you focusing the same attention on the manufacturers of these 'dial a vote' units who have repeatedly LIED to Federal and State officials in order to reap huge profits at our expense?

What does your gut tell you about what is really going on here? Do the words intent, motive and opportunity mean anything to you? What do you think my intentions are regarding all this Federal, State and Local election contact information I've been collecting and posting? How 'bout the voter registration and absentee ballot info? If I didn't care about the law, why do you suppose I spend so much time researching it, and trying to get other people to read the laws for their own states? What do you think I intend to do with all of this info other than get as many people as possible to register, vote absentee if possible (to leave you some evidence of their intent) and to contact their elected representatives for a 'redress of their grievances'?

What do you suppose my motive is for putting so many hours into this issue? What do I have to gain from doing this other than the satisfaction of knowing that my vote and the votes of others will actually count? How do I profit from all that I'm doing?

What opportunity do I have to actually hack an election? Do you actually believe that I could compromise an election without having access to the machines or inside information on the specifics of the data transfer addresses and phone numbers?

Allow me to publicly address those three points for you.

My intent is to expose the rotten state of our electoral system and help get it fixed. Nothing more, nothing less. You and I both know there is no good reason to keep the method of counting our votes a secret in the hands of very partisan private corporations who have been proved through their own documentation and actions to be liars and thieves. I want to educate as many people as I can as to the state of the election laws passed by their representatives and let them know how the laws are being structured to prevent fair elections. The last I checked, that is not only a legal activity but a Noble cause. Everyone should be able to exercise their right to vote and every legal vote should be counted as cast.

There seems to be some collusion on the part of R. Doug Lewis of the Election Center.org who has for years been quietly taking donations from private individuals to help his organization steer our representatives thinking on the methodology of our electoral process and the voting machine industry.
Look at his connections to the National Association of Secretaries of State and the National Association of State Election Directors. At the same time, Mr. Lewis has been working hand in hand with the voting machine manufacturers as a 'de facto' lobbyist attempting to get our elected officials to accept their easily hackable machines and structure the laws to make fair recounts an impossibility.
What do you suppose his intent is?
Is it ethical or even legal for Mr. Lewis to act as an 'impartial expert' when testifying before elections officials, while at the same time, participating as a member of an 'ad hoc' industry consortium of voting machine manufacturers attempting to hire a 'PR' firm with the stated intentions of 'altering the public perception of the problems' surrounding voting technology?

My motivation for doing what I'm doing is pretty straightforward, I love my country and the Constitution that guides it. I strongly believe in the concept of "Government by, of, and for the people". I also believe in the silly old notions that, "ALL men are created equal" and deserve "Equal treatment under the law".
You've got to admit that those principles seem to have fallen by the wayside in recent years under the present administration.
What troubles me is that the direction the country is being led in clearly spells disaster in the long run both politically and economically.
With the new notions of "preemptive invasions" & "limited sovereignty" :crazy:, the politically motivated outing by the Whitehouse of a long term deep undercover NOC tracking nuclear proliferation to terrorist organizations and the subsequent murder of one of her contacts taking months to garner an investigation but the outing of a breast on TV resulting in an overnight investigation and immediate new regulations, I'm beginning to get worried about our government's priorities for 'protecting' us.
With the security agencies responsible for our country's protection being shortchanged, understaffed and scapegoated for failures when there's clearly enough intelligence being collected and passed forward to warrant immediate actions, it's become obvious that there is an agenda being followed that may be contrary to the best interests of our country and serious threats are being ignored. I find that to be most troublesome.
When good people such as you Mike, have to divert their attention from the very real threat posed by all of the new extremest elements we've created in the middle east and elsewhere to sit here and monitor our activities I get scared. Not because we're being monitored but because the real threats aren't.

My motivation is the strong desire to see the people in this misadministration held accountable for their actions and the records of their actions be made public, since their actions were done in our name. There's not much I can do to make that happen other than rattle a few cages of my Senators and Congress critters so the only option I have left is to vote them out ASAP. I can't do that alone, let alone at all, if my vote isn't counted. I'm trying to make it as easy as possible for as many people as possible to participate in their participatory democracy. That is, give them 'one click' access to their representatives so their will can be accurately represented.

My first target, if you will, is our election officials to get them to understand the true nature and urgency of our concerns as backed up by 1000's of the best computer experts in the country. We have concerns and evidence legitimate enough to warrant the FBI cyber-crimes division's involvement in conducting raids of elections divisions warehouses and close examination of the uncertified software illegally installed for Federal elections. Why they're not doing that in light of all the publicly reported problems and documented evidence is a mystery to me. Instead they take the time to investigate the victims of the fraud. Why do you suppose that is? Could it be political and if so, is it proper?

Our vote is the most important one on earth right now since we hold an unparalleled, military superiority, and the ability to invade almost any sovereign nation, virtually at will. The will of the people should prevail in how our military should respond to actual threats to our safety and security not at the whim of a group of madmen who've shown no regard for the law or human rights up till now and have a clear financial stake in the corporations that funded their (s)election and also stand to reap huge profits from their actions, all at our expense.

I want these people out of office so the United States of America can return from our current position of being a threatening bully on the international block to our rightful role as a world leader in peaceful, civil diplomacy and protector of human rights.

I want these people out of office so our intelligence agencies can go back to protecting us from the very real threats that they've always valiantly faced up to in the past, instead of the 'manufactured' threats based on 'untested, unverified sources' that we're facing now. I want those agencies to have every resource available and adequate manpower to do their job thoroughly and safely by monitoring the sources of actual terrorism and terrorist organizations, rather than spying on the American people for engaging legitimate political opposition and descent.

I want these people out of office so the United States of America can get busy and go back to work by becoming the worlds leading designer and producer of renewable and alternative energy production equipment to help the world face the coming inevitability of 'peak oil'.

Most of all I want a fair chance at removing these people from office.

If it's now somehow illegal for me to take the opportunity to use my talents and lowly resources to help inform and motivate others, and to supply them with the tools and information they need to get involved, then you had better come get me because I have no intention of stopping. :)

As professional law enforcement agents who all swore an oath to support and protect the Constitution against all enemies both foreign and domestic, I urge anyone assigned to investigate this to look at the merits of the arguments we're presenting and ask yourself who in this equation might have the intent to do harm to our elections, what motive they may have for doing so, and who has had the opportunity to do damage. Then ask yourselves why you were assigned to investigate us instead of those who actually may pose a real and dangerous threat to our country.

Please take the time to ask yourselves if deep down you feel that you're honoring your sworn oath to protect the country or are you merely following orders in order to keep your job. After all, it's your vote too.

Our actions are those of patriots not terrorists.

Your actions will make the difference as to whether our fragile democracy survives the threat posed by unverifiable elections conducted using insecure equipment supplied and operated by extremely partisan people who, by their own documentation, have proved that they lied about their systems and have clearly broken both State and Federal laws thereby denying the Constitutionally protected civil right to vote to countless thousands of citizens, and arguably have altered the outcome of Federal elections.

I thank you in advance for your prompt and undivided attention to this most serious threat situation. If there's anything I can do to help in this matter, please don't hesitate to ask for my assistance. I'm on the side of the people on this issue and I believe it's your sworn duty to be as well.

TTFN, I must get back to what I was doing. So much information to get out, so little time. :hi:
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #116
119. What he said
and Pat...:loveya:
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #116
126. Pat- WOW!
Mike, if that doesn't move you, in a good way, nothing will.

Or have you sold your soul?
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #116
166. Diebold- State and Federal Crimes
".... by their own documentation, have proved that they lied about their systems and have clearly broken both State and Federal laws thereby denying the Constitutionally protected civil right to vote to countless thousands of citizens, and arguably have altered the outcome of Federal elections."

Mike, you are sworn to uphold the Constitution, are you not?

You believe in the Bill of Rights?

The lake you need to be fishing in is called Diebold.

While you're at it, check on the tributaries that all connect to The Election Center and R. Doug Lewis. You know, the entity that helped put together the National Association of Secretaries of State and the National Association of State Election Directors, and IACREOT,....all those entities so closely tied to voting in states and counties. The same Election Center and Lewis who have been providing 'education' to election officials for over 10 years. The Election Center, that controls the ITA's and certification process. The Election Center, that no one can seem to find anything about its origins. The Election Center, that keeps the certification process oh so secret. The Election Center, you know, the one recently revealed to have taken donations from vendors for years, the same entity that controls the certification of the vendors machines? See no conflict of interest there, Mike? (Or whoever took your place, I imagine Mike is a little screen-shocked this morning) The same R. Doug Lewis who wrote the widely circulated piece dissing voter verified paper ballots, while at the same time heading up a supposed unbiased organization mandated with certifying all systems?

The 'fish' you should be concerned with are in other lakes. Pull your canoe out of the creek and get something bigger for the real issues you need to investigate. It'll take a bigger boat to hold all the fish you'll find there.


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Duncan Grant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
117. Welcome to DU, Mike.
:hi:

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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
118. Howdy, Agent Mike!
Stick around. You might learn something by reading DU threads. Not that you'll get what you're really after, but, as President Chimp says, you need to make a committment to "lifelong learning".

Have a nice day!!
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Phyl Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
122. Hi Agent Mike!!
Sorry to have gotten here so late! I just wanted to tell you -- up in Canada, we think you are bizarre, not to mention silly.

I mean, look at us. We still use PAPER in our elections, for heaven's sake! Aren't we primitive? Not cool and advanced, like your boys, eh? Your Diebold pals and the Bush crowd, and all those cool kids who are finally Getting Even with all them damn libruls who want to be NICE to people and stuff? And even more than that -- we have HONEST ELECTIONS. And we can even recount the votes when we need to, and it doesn't even need electricity, let alone those fancy, Republican-owned counting machine thingies that are so unreliable. Wooo!

Anyway, guess what, Mike! I've got disks and disks burned with information, including Bev's book and a whole lot of other stuff. Piles and piles and piles of information. Not even on my computer. Shucks, you can't even get at it, can you?

I'm in Canada, Mike. Gonna try to get the RCMP to come and get me, and get those disks, so the whole world won't know what your pals are up to?

Maybe you can get them to deport me to Syria, whattaya say? Eh? Done it before, and all that?

But those disks will get seen. You won't stop them.

Nyah.

Now. Start using your brain, Mike. No, forget the brain for a minute, it's obviously being held hostage and is not working properly.

Try using your HEART, you silly man. Look at the outright MEAN people you serve, and what their goals are. Then look at the goals of the people they hate -- stuff like universal peace, an end to poverty, and above all things, DEMOCRACY.

Ever heard of that, Mike?

Now use your brain. Go read your own bloody Constitution. Go read Thomas Jefferson. Go read some of those original Patriots who gave their blood to create what you are trying to help destroy.

Grow up, you silly man. Get a conscience.

Have a good day. :hi:
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laylah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
123. Hi Mike
:* you unpatriotic, Constitution hating person! Shame on you! and a :thumbsup: to you Bev! Hang in there...you are awesome! :bounce:

Jenn
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
124. Agent Mike: If you want my IP, get on irc.esper.net
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 06:41 PM by goobergunch
and /join #nationstates_general sometime when I'm on (usually afternoons any day of the week or weeknights). My nick is, of course, Goobergunch.

Of course, then I can see your IP, but fair's fair.... :P
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Phyl Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
125. Ooops, yes! Yay Bev!
In the midst of all that, I forgot to say how much I admire you, and I think your name will be on one of the plaques on the big monument commemorating the heroes who helped destroy the monsters and re-create a democratic North America. :yourock:
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
128. A kick for Bob's ulcer!
:evilgrin:
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Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #128
132. Hey Agent Mike...take your time going....but hurry back!
that's a little shrub lingo for ya!
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
133. Now you can understand why I was skeptical of you, Bev
when people were being directed to download the source to Diebold's software.

I don't care if it wasn't secured, it had the appearance of wrongdoing, which is why I personally didn't want to be involved. I was fearful of what other DUers were getting dragged in to.
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #133
135. Or willingly jumped into!
:evilgrin: Thousands of computer experts were exposed to the truth behind the use of these insecure, computer based voting systems by Bev's efforts and have, for the most part, all come to the same conclusions about them. In their current iteration, these machines represent a real and present danger to our electoral system. The fix is obvious, supply a human readable, permanent record, on paper to ensure proper audits of the most important part of our democracy, our vote. Some people think that's important enough to get involved getting the word out.

Why haven't you? :shrug: :kick:
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #133
137. "It had the appearance of wrongdoing?" Try this:
Diebold: referred, by a unanimous decision of the California voting panel, for criminal prosecution by the attorney general.

And if you read the topic of the so-called "investigation" it is about Diebold memos (not source code) and a rather implausible hack to "VoteHere."

Sorry, don't follow your reasoning. The wrongdoers are the ones ruining our electoral system, not the ones who are fighting to save it.

Bev

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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #137
139. Hi Bev!
:kick: :evilgrin: :)
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #139
142. Hello hello. And would you believe,
I'm already on to the next task. Hopefully will have in in motion by the end of this weekend, after a strategy meeting with the mighty Andy Stephenson. I have a very specific vision for what's to come next. Consider everything up to now "Phase I." Phase II begins Sunday.

Agent Mike, I was thinking: How about if you take a look at the real reasons you got a reported VoteHere hack? I have two theories. The one you suggested doesn't click with my instincts, sorry.

You might want to check out how accurate my instincts have been so far. Consider again the real reasons behind this. You know, the ones we discussed that you dismissed.

Sorry they were so rough on you here. We get a little tense when we see our democracy trickling away.

Okay, Agent Mike, you will certainly do what you want. For my part...Back to investigating.

Bev

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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #142
146. You go girl!
:kick:
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #137
145. Clarification, hopefully
Edited on Thu Apr-29-04 11:02 PM by Must_B_Free
"After the Diebold memos were leaked, and my web site was shut down, around the time of the California recall election, I started getting solicited to accept VoteHere software. I didn't bite, because it was obvious that this was an entrapment attempt."

How did we know that "click this link and download the Diebold product source code" was not an entrapment attempt?

To me, it looked like a newcomer joined the board and someone was asking us to participate in something that might have been illegal. That was might suspicious to me.

Regardless of Diebold's evil intentions, whoever posted those links put all those people who followed them at risk.

Have I made my point?

I am not calling you a wrong doer for the BBV efforts, obviously what you have accomplished is nothing short of AMAZING and a piece of history. But rather, I am noting that my initial fear seems to have come true - DUers have been made to look like wrong doers perhaps in the eyes of the law or investigative authorities. That is what your post says, isn't it?

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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #145
149. At some point you decide to jump in...
Regardless of Diebold's evil intentions, whoever posted those links put all those people who followed them at risk.

It's always nice to spread this sort of risk around. If only a few people were holding the various CD's, perhaps it would have be feasible for your "investigative authorities" to retrieve them, and then the story would have ended. If hundreds or thousands of people all over the world have the files the "authorities" are fairly powerless.

There is no doubt that Bev can be a bit reckless and sometimes step on toes, but that's been a large part of her success in pursing this issue, which is indeed turning out to be "bigger than Watergate."

If the citizens of the United States are going to be timid there is no hope for us, our nation is dead.
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #149
150. Perilous times demand
Bold ACTION!

If we are timid and cowed then we have lost. We the People are the Sovereigns in this Nation. We MUST be granted our right to a redress of grievances.
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #145
157. Huh?
Diebold code- On an open, unprotected, FTP site. Free to the world, essentially. As I recall, Diebold whined, but this isn't one they can have a lot of luck with trying to nab someone. If they try, let's call for the logs of everyone who might have downloaded those files, from BEFORE Bev found them. That would include clueless election officials Diebold might have instructed to go there. But it's the ones with no official status I'm curious about. Discovery might be something Diebold wouldn't want.

Diebold memos- Seems Dennis Kucinich helped put an end to that attempt to silence the masses. Let's see, what outweighs here- Diebold's criminal actions or the citizens right to know why they don't have fair elections? Stuff gets leaked all the time to the press and others. Seems that's how some important stuff is found. Score one for democracy.

VoteHere Hack- Bev didn't bite. Why would anyone? VoteHere had announced to the world they would reveal their source code- although they have yet to put it ALL out there. But they are real good at getting the press to do PR for them.

So what kind of game are they playing? I can imagine that if they try the Diebold memo fishing expedition, they will have Kucinich all over them again. The code and VoteHere issues are so non-issues. Diebold takes the rap for the code and we'd really like to know if VoteHere filed a false complaint. It appears that VoteHere told everyone they knew who hacked and watched it happen. So, why all the intrigue now? Why act like they don't know? If they want to fish, they ought to be trolling in VoteHere's lake,
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #157
178. VoteHere KNEW
Adler said they knew who it was. What the heck is going on?

Why say they are chasing a VoteHere hacker then only ask about Diebold stuff?

Would those old threads be around?

Why claim the hack was done in October and wait to report until, what was it, January?

What's the connection between VoteHere and Diebold? I mean, they say they're after one thing but ask about another. What's up with that?

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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #157
192. sounds like the logic used to shift from Afghanistan to Iraq
they used this sort of "Come on, they're all just dangerous muslims anyway, right?" kind of logic. "ehhh VoteHere, Diebold - they all voting machines right?"

They are watching their dreams of power slip away.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #137
165. Damned well said, Bev!
:hi: :toast:
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dolo amber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
138. Hi Mike
Sorry about your penis! :hi:

Kisses,

Diane

:P
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
140. Bless you Bev. Your work is priceless!
Hi Mike. How's the treason business? See you at your trial!
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
141. kick
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
143. Hi Mike. Ya got some mustard on your tie.
To save you some time, I'll confess. I know how to click links, read text and process information.

Will you strip search me, Mike? Play rough? Handcuffs? Kinky stuff? A bag over my head?


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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-29-04 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #143
147. If he's not man enough......
.....I will! :evilgrin: :kick:
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Andy_Stephenson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #147
148. You are soooo good...
Edited on Fri Apr-30-04 12:39 AM by God_bush_n_cheney
when you're bad.

:evilgrin:
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 02:00 AM
Response to Original message
151. Hi Mike!!
There was a guy named Mike who was curious
About Bev Harris, who it seemed was scurrilous
About DU he did lurk
'Till his leash got a jerk
From the ACLU - and boy, they were furious!

Hoping you get a more productive assignment!
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Egalitarian Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 02:37 AM
Response to Original message
152. Hello there
Edited on Fri Apr-30-04 02:41 AM by Geia
I too..................... insurgent and .......................... plan to ............................... you will ......... god praise .............................. allah ............. jesus ................................... infidel ............... true ..................... terrorists ........ victory .................................. oppressed will rise against ............... you are either with us or against us.

{sarcasm off}

Sweet dreams eh?
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samadhi Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 02:52 AM
Response to Original message
153. see you all in the concentration camps
if you want to find me, this is on my left arm:
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
154. I told ya it was a fishing expedition.
After Dec 12 2000, all better were off. I knew this, I'm still surprised that folks don't know.

Stay safe Bev and HI AGENT MIKE...GOT ANY DTAG FOR THE REINDEER?
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Oggy Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
155. Good luck Bev
Hi Mike, we all know what you're doing. Nah nah na nah na.
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Nobody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 05:40 AM
Response to Original message
156. Hi Mike, Nobody here
In this country some of us still stand for democracy and would be in favor of counting ALL the votes and making the votes of ALL citizens count.

But if you and your boss don't want to count the votes of those of us who don't qualify for the country club crowd, then America isn't the same America I grew up believing in.

You want my name?

My name is legion.
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sus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
159. Hi Mike!
Thanks for all the work you do, Bev. You ROCK.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
160. Take A Hike Mike!
Better go check up on Clinton's Root Of All EVIL hadn't you?
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gandalf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
162. What kind of DU messages did they show you?
Did they seem to be interested in certain topics?

BTW: Under the Patriot Act, would it be possible to request from Skinner the identities of DU members without a court order?
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #162
173. They showedme posts about Diebold stuff
Not Votehere stuff.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
164. hey mike my dog hates bush too and he also votes
woof woof
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
167. Please note BBVs from LBN starroute - They're everywhere
Edited on Fri Apr-30-04 12:09 PM by seemslikeadream
CACI, Titan, and BBV

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0308/S00283.htm

This is a page with various links on the ITAA and its links to The Election Center and R. Doug Lewis -- all names that will be familiar to people who have been following Bev's investigations. As I recall, the ITAA Enterprise Solutions Division has acted as a sort of lobbying agency for electronic voting.

The ITAA Enterprise Solutions Division Board of Directors -- which is top-heavy with government contractors -- includes both "Mr. L. Kenneth Johnson President CACI International Inc." and "Mr. Kenneth Touloumes VP, Business Development Titan Corporation."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=520049&mesg_id=520882&page=

38. from starroute in LBN


And a couple of items on Titan"
Posted by starroute
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15985
Iraq: A Corporate Gold Mine

"Back in California, two San Diego companies were hired for more secretive operations before the war: Titan corporation was recruiting Kurdish spies and translators while its neighbor, Science Applications International Corporation, was hired to run a government of Iraqis in exile.

"The wholesale privatization of the U.S. military is not surprising given that the three bureaucrats Bush hired to run the Army, Navy and Air Force when he became president in 2000 were all plucked from corporate America: Gordon England of General Dynamics was appointed secretary of the Navy, James Roche of Northrop Grumman was appointed Air Force secretary, and Thomas White of Enron was appointed secretary of the Army.

"Although all three men have resigned in the last 12 months, the two former military men recruited to run Iraq, Jay Garner and Paul Bremer, were chief executives of consulting companies to the multinationals – SY Technologies and Marsh McLellan. SY helps design missiles while Marsh advises companies in crisis."


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3117.htm
Carving Up The New Iraq

"James Woolsey: A long-time supporter of war on Iraq and PNAC and Jinsa member, the former director of the CIA has been named as the likely minister of information in the new Iraq. His business interests have included: the arms company British Aerospace; the Titan Corporation, which provides military interpreters and DynCorp, which provides bodyguards for Hamid Karzai, the Afghani president and has installed a police force monitoring service in Bosnia."


I'm starting to think that the fact that the same corporations show up in BBV as in these Iraq stories is no coincidence. (Note the mention of SAIC in the Alternet story.) This whole business of privitization of military functions potentially dwarfs all the other misdeeds of the Bush administration and will threaten the very heart of our democracy long after Bush is gone.





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Southpaw Bookworm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
171. Greetings Mike!
I'm going to assume that you're based in the DC area -- perhaps we can have coffee some time and chat about what's so bad about having a backup count of votes. Surely you don't think that something as important as the foundation of the democratic process should be left up to technology. I mean, look how long it took for your friends at the FBI to get a computer system that wasn't a piece of crap.

I'm a Hysteric Librarian (thank John Ashcorft for that one) at a college with a high percentage of students who have emigrated from countries where bogus elections were a part of life. They can tell you how vital it is that a vote be deemed legitimate: Most of them saw dictators "elected" year after year while political dissidents, in some cases themselves or family members, were tortured for objecting to the SOP.

So, why don't you go join FINCEN or one of the other organizations trying to stop actual terrorists, or are government "technology specialists" no longer in the business.

Regards, Southpaw Bookworm
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Imperialism Inc. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
174. Hi Mike.
You really believe in what you are doing?
Real shame if you do. Harassing a woman for wanting a reliable democracy.

Tell 'em you don't want to work for fascists no more. You ought to just quit. If you have any soul.



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Gryn Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
175. bump
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Jawja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
176. Hi Mike!
Edited on Fri Apr-30-04 08:02 PM by Jawja
:hi:

:kick:

Bev, you are a true Patriot and an American hero. Keep fighting!
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
177. Finally read this: kick!
:kick:
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-30-04 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
180. Hi Mike you don't hate us for our Freedoms do you?
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FreeToLeave Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
184. Donations?
I would think that something this big and explosive would be fully funded by Soros or some other rich Democrat that could spare a few thousand for this much needed cause.
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #184
185. Yeah, you would think that wouldn't you.....
.....Welcome to DU! :hi:

You got his number? Would you give him a call for Bev? :evilgrin:

:kick:
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #184
194. What kind of BAIT is this ? ...
WE do not advocate, nor have we EVER advocated, the overthrow of the United States of America by force or violence ....

We advocate the orderly chnge of government by the power of the people at the HONESTLY counted ballot box ...

Dont peddle your seditious crap here ....
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PSU84 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
186. Hi Mike. Fuck you.
Drop dead, you NAZI pig.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
187. MESSAGE To Bev...
Just for your information, the Treasury Department was on White Rose last night downloading yesterday's Thom Hartmann show.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #187
190. Yeah. I always thought it was a little weird that the treasury dept
is always big on the hit counters when there's something like ... say ... George Bush military documents or ... say ... Black Box Voting and of course ... that mighty thinker, historian and corporate personhood-buster, Thom Hartmann.

Is it that the Treasury Dept. has a lot of employees who secretly surf the stuff that most damages fascist goals, or is it some branch in the Treasury Dept. that is looking for its lost trillions, or what?
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ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #190
191. One can only hope!
Now that's a question worth pondering! :evilgrin: :kick:

(Think about it Mike, you'll figure it out! :hi: )
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doni_georgia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
188. Hi Mike!
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Randers Donating Member (252 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-01-04 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
189. Hi Mike!
:hi:
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
193. Kick
:kick:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
195. Thanks Bev for the heads up
Hi Mike... care to read what you swore to protect and DEFEND against both enemies Foreign and Domestic?

THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(See Note 1)

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Article. I.
Section 1.
All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

Section. 2.
Clause 1: The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature.

Clause 2: No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.

Clause 3: Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. (See Note 2) The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.

Clause 4: When vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies.

Clause 5: The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

Section. 3.
Clause 1: The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each State, chosen by the Legislature thereof, (See Note 3) for six Years; and each Senator shall have one Vote.

Clause 2: Immediately after they shall be assembled in Consequence of the first Election, they shall be divided as equally as may be into three Classes. The Seats of the Senators of the first Class shall be vacated at the Expiration of the second Year, of the second Class at the Expiration of the fourth Year, and of the third Class at the Expiration of the sixth Year, so that one third may be chosen every second Year; and if Vacancies happen by Resignation, or otherwise, during the Recess of the Legislature of any State, the Executive thereof may make temporary Appointments until the next Meeting of the Legislature, which shall then fill such Vacancies. (See Note 4)

Clause 3: No Person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.

Clause 4: The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.

Clause 5: The Senate shall chuse their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the Absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States.

Clause 6: The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

Clause 7: Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

Section. 4.
Clause 1: The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.

Clause 2: The Congress shall assemble at least once in every Year, and such Meeting shall be on the first Monday in December, (See Note 5) unless they shall by Law appoint a different Day.

Section. 5.
Clause 1: Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.

Clause 2: Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.

Clause 3: Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require Secrecy; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal.

Clause 4: Neither House, during the Session of Congress, shall, without the Consent of the other, adjourn for more than three days, nor to any other Place than that in which the two Houses shall be sitting.

Section. 6.
Clause 1: The Senators and Representatives shall receive a Compensation for their Services, to be ascertained by Law, and paid out of the Treasury of the United States. (See Note 6) They shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, beprivileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place.

Clause 2: No Senator or Representative shall, during the Time for which he was elected, be appointed to any civil Office under the Authority of the United States, which shall have been created, or the Emoluments whereof shall have been encreased during such time; and no Person holding any Office under the United States, shall be a Member of either House during his Continuance in Office.

Section. 7.
Clause 1: All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

Clause 2: Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively. If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law.

Clause 3: Every Order, Resolution, or Vote to which the Concurrence of the Senate and House of Representatives may be necessary (except on a question of Adjournment) shall be presented to the President of the United States; and before the Same shall take Effect, shall be approved by him, or being disapproved by him, shall be repassed by two thirds of the Senate and House of Representatives, according to the Rules and Limitations prescribed in the Case of a Bill.

Section. 8.
Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Clause 2: To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

Clause 3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

Clause 4: To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

Clause 5: To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

Clause 6: To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

Clause 7: To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

Clause 8: To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

Clause 9: To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

Clause 10: To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

Clause 11: To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

Clause 12: To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

Clause 13: To provide and maintain a Navy;

Clause 14: To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

Clause 15: To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Clause 16: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

Clause 17: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, byCession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

Clause 18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Section. 9.
Clause 1: The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.

Clause 2: The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

Clause 3: No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

Clause 4: No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken. (See Note 7)

Clause 5: No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any State.

Clause 6: No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.

Clause 7: No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

Clause 8: No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

Section. 10.
Clause 1: No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

Clause 2: No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.

Clause 3: No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

Article. II.
Section. 1.
Clause 1: The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows

Clause 2: Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

Clause 3: The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; A quorum for this Purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice President. (See Note 8)

Clause 4: The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.

Clause 5: No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

Clause 6: In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, (See Note 9) the Same shall devolve on the VicePresident, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected.

Clause 7: The President shall, at stated Times, receive for his Services, a Compensation, which shall neither be encreased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them.

Clause 8: Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Section. 2.
Clause 1: The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

Clause 2: He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

Clause 3: The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session.

Section. 3.
He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers; he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States.

Section. 4.
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Article. III.
Section. 1.
The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services, a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.

Section. 2.
Clause 1: The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;--between a State and Citizens of another State; (See Note 10)--between Citizens of different States, --between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

Clause 2: In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

Clause 3: The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.

Section. 3.
Clause 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

Clause 2: The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Article. IV.
Section. 1.
Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

Section. 2.
Clause 1: The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

Clause 2: A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.

Clause 3: No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due. (See Note 11)

Section. 3.
Clause 1: New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

Clause 2: The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

Section. 4.
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

Article. VI.
Clause 1: All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

Clause 2: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Article. VII.
The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same.
done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,

GO WASHINGTON--Presidt. and deputy from Virginia



Delaware

Geo: Read
Gunning Bedford jun
John Dickinson
Richard Bassett
Jaco: Broom


Maryland

James MCHenry
Dan of ST ThoS. Jenifer
DanL Carroll.


Virginia

John Blair--
James Madison Jr.


North Carolina

WM Blount
RichD. Dobbs Spaight.
Hu Williamson


South Carolina

J. Rutledge
Charles 1ACotesworth Pinckney
Charles Pinckney
Pierce Butler.


Georgia

William Few
Abr Baldwin


New Hampshire

John Langdon
Nicholas Gilman


Massachusetts

Nathaniel Gorham
Rufus King


Connecticut
WM. SamL. Johnson
Roger Sherman


New York

Alexander Hamilton

New Jersey

Wil: Livingston
David Brearley.
WM. Paterson.
Jona: Dayton


Pennsylvania

B Franklin
Thomas Mifflin
RobT Morris
Geo. Clymer
ThoS. FitzSimons
Jared Ingersoll
James Wilson.
Gouv Morris


Attest William Jackson Secretary

NOTES

Note 1: This text of the Constitution follows the engrossed copy signed by Gen. Washington and the deputies from 12 States. The small superior figures preceding the paragraphs designate Clauses, and were not in the original and have no reference to footnotes.

The Constitution was adopted by a convention of the States on September 17, 1787, and was subsequently ratified by the several States, on the following dates: Delaware, December 7, 1787; Pennsylvania, December 12, 1787; New Jersey, December 18, 1787; Georgia, January 2, 1788; Connecticut, January 9, 1788; Massachusetts, February 6, 1788; Maryland, April 28, 1788; South Carolina, May 23, 1788; New Hampshire, June 21, 1788.

Ratification was completed on June 21, 1788.

The Constitution was subsequently ratified by Virginia, June 25, 1788; New York, July 26, 1788; North Carolina, November 21, 1789; Rhode Island, May 29, 1790; and Vermont, January 10, 1791.

In May 1785, a committee of Congress made a report recommending an alteration in the Articles of Confederation, but no action was taken on it, and it was left to the State Legislatures to proceed in the matter. In January 1786, the Legislature of Virginia passed a resolution providing for the appointment of five commissioners, who, or any three of them, should meet such commissioners as might be appointed in the other States of the Union, at a time and place to be agreed upon, to take into consideration the trade of the United States; to consider how far a uniform system in their commercial regulations may be necessary to their common interest and their permanent harmony; and to report to the several States such an act, relative to this great object, as, when ratified by them, will enable the United States in Congress effectually to provide for the same. The Virginia commissioners, after some correspondence, fixed the first Monday in September as the time, and the city of Annapolis as the place for the meeting, but only four other States were represented, viz: Delaware, New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania; the commissioners appointed by Massachusetts, New Hampshire, North Carolina, and Rhode Island failed to attend. Under the circumstances of so partial a representation, the commissioners present agreed upon a report, (drawn by Mr. Hamilton, of New York,) expressing their unanimous conviction that it might essentially tend to advance the interests of the Union if the States by which they were respectively delegated would concur, and use their endeavors to procure the concurrence of the other States, in the appointment of commissioners to meet at Philadelphia on the Second Monday of May following, to take into consideration the situation of the United States; to devise such further provisions as should appear to them necessary to render the Constitution of the Federal Government adequate to the exigencies of the Union; and to report such an act for that purpose to the United States in Congress assembled as, when agreed to by them and afterwards confirmed by the Legislatures of every State, would effectually provide for the same.

Congress, on the 21st of February, 1787, adopted a resolution in favor of a convention, and the Legislatures of those States which had not already done so (with the exception of Rhode Island) promptly appointed delegates. On the 25th of May, seven States having convened, George Washington, of Virginia, was unanimously elected President, and the consideration of the proposed constitution was commenced. On the 17th of September, 1787, the Constitution as engrossed and agreed upon was signed by all the members present, except Mr. Gerry of Massachusetts, and Messrs. Mason and Randolph, of Virginia. The president of the convention transmitted it to Congress, with a resolution stating how the proposed Federal Government should be put in operation, and an explanatory letter. Congress, on the 28th of September, 1787, directed the Constitution so framed, with the resolutions and letter concerning the same, to "be transmitted to the several Legislatures in order to be submitted to a convention of delegates chosen in each State by the people thereof, in conformity to the resolves of the convention."

On the 4th of March, 1789, the day which had been fixed for commencing the operations of Government under the new Constitution, it had been ratified by the conventions chosen in each State to consider it, as follows: Delaware, December 7, 1787; Pennsylvania, December 12, 1787; New Jersey, December 18, 1787; Georgia, January 2, 1788; Connecticut, January 9, 1788; Massachusetts, February 6, 1788; Maryland, April 28, 1788; South Carolina, May 23, 1788; New Hampshire, June 21, 1788; Virginia, June 25, 1788; and New York, July 26, 1788.

The President informed Congress, on the 28th of January, 1790, that North Carolina had ratified the Constitution November 21, 1789; and he informed Congress on the 1st of June, 1790, that Rhode Island had ratified the Constitution May 29, 1790. Vermont, in convention, ratified the Constitution January 10, 1791, and was, by an act of Congress approved February 18, 1791, "received and admitted into this Union as a new and entire member of the United States."

Note 2: The part of this Clause relating to the mode of apportionment of representatives among the several States has been affected by Section 2 of amendment XIV, and as to taxes on incomes without apportionment by amendment XVI.

Note 3: This Clause has been affected by Clause 1 of amendment XVII.

Note 4: This Clause has been affected by Clause 2 of amendment XVIII.

Note 5: This Clause has been affected by amendment XX.

Note 6: This Clause has been affected by amendment XXVII.

Note 7: This Clause has been affected by amendment XVI.

Note 8: This Clause has been superseded by amendment XII.

Note 9: This Clause has been affected by amendment XXV.

Note 10: This Clause has been affected by amendment XI.

Note 11: This Clause has been affected by amendment XIII.

Note 12: The first ten amendments to the Constitution of the United States (and two others, one of which failed of ratification and the other which later became the 27th amendment) were proposed to the legislatures of the several States by the First Congress on September 25, 1789. The first ten amendments were ratified by the following States, and the notifications of ratification by the Governors thereof were successively communicated by the President to Congress: New Jersey, November 20, 1789; Maryland, December 19, 1789; North Carolina, December 22, 1789; South Carolina, January 19, 1790; New Hampshire, January 25, 1790; Delaware, January 28, 1790; New York, February 24, 1790; Pennsylvania, March 10, 1790; Rhode Island, June 7, 1790; Vermont, November 3, 1791; and Virginia, December 15, 1791.

Ratification was completed on December 15, 1791.

The amendments were subsequently ratified by the legislatures of Massachusetts, March 2, 1939; Georgia, March 18, 1939; and Connecticut, April 19, 1939.

Note 13: Only the 13th, 14th, 15th, and 16th articles of amendment had numbers assigned to them at the time of ratification.

Note 14: This sentence has been superseded by section 3 of amendment XX.

Note 15: See amendment XIX and section 1 of amendment XXVI.

Note 16: Repealed by section 1 of amendment XXI.



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Thought that you may want to get reaquanted with this minor document that we patriots have this penchant of actually defending... I know silly us...

Enjoy your stay, you may learn somenhing Mike.

:hi:
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #195
197. I'm sorry, Mike
For being a concerned American.:shrug:
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sleipnir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
198. Add my name to the list.
Edited on Sun May-02-04 02:54 AM by sleipnir
I'll post on this thread to kick it, damn it, we need this info to become public and the deluded people who purse this line of Fascist information gathering. Seriously, how do these humans sleep at night or do they have no souls?? Some people will do the worst work for the worst people and have to lie to themselves, in order to keep on working. Or perhaps these government employees are so deluded they can't see the truth or, even worse, they are too afraid to look. Maybe it's just me, but I just can't fathom any human working on such an illegal and morally wrong project. Do they really think they are protecting America?? DO THEY NOT REALIZE THEY ARE ONLY SUPPORTING THE CORPORATE CULTURE!!!!?? I hope these people wake up, stop trying to prosecute good American citizens and work for a better goal of uniting our country under peace and justice, not shadow government with thousands of pawns collecting information on their fellow citizens. Please, I hope that as you read this message, ma'am or sir of the federal goverment, that you at least pause to think about what you are doing and why. I don't think that I will "convert" you, but please think, why do I spy on my neighbors and friends, and for who's benefit? It's a tough question and the answers may not be pretty and a little scary, but they are at least worth considering...

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Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #198
200. Agent Mike.....take a hike.
gin
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
199. kick eom
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
202. Any funny business will come back on them
You're in the sunlight, Bev. Anything they do to you will blow up in their faces.

Hi, Mike. Nice over here, huh?
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #202
203. Because there is some GREAT stuff here!
Kick!

:hi: Mike

You see, we like democracy. Americans can deal with anything. We can deal with them BECAUSE of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, not in spite of them, like the current government seems to think.

We can do that because we have those inspirations.

We fight to protect THEM. We don't need them taken away under the guise of protecting us. Remember, "Ask not what your country can do for you, Ask what you can do for your country."

Let's remember what we're supposed to protect here.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
204. Hi, Mike -- Repeal the Patriot Act
And until it is repealed, civil disobedience is a proper response to it.

Just thought you'd like to know where I stand.

Oh, and by the way, I can't wait until January 20, when Kerry is inaugurated as the 43rd President of the United States, ending the four-year vacancy of the office.
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-02-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #204
205. Back up!
60 Minutes, where are you?
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-03-04 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
206. Bev, you're my hero.
If the democracy-hating bastards try this in Canada, I know who I'm gonna call. And I'll support you with every loonie I can scrape up.

As for agent Mike, just how low can a human sink.
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