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[Name removed]

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[wndycty]

1. Very short sighted of you

We (young Blacks) are getting sick and tired of your argument. I am a liberal so naturally I am going to vote Democrat, but so many of my brothers and sisters are not and I resent the fact the fact that many Democrats do feel that Blacks should vote Democratic. We don't owe the Democratic party SHIT!!! We gave Gore 90% of the vote last time so obviously we have more than met the Democrats halfway. They are not as bad as the Repukes, but does that mean we should follow blindly?

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. Well said

Personally, I'm more moderate. I'm tired of the assumption as well. The GOP bends over backwards finding big positions for Powell and Rice and others locally. I don't see our own PARTY doing that. (I have friends who live in Maryland. The first statewide black elected official is their new Lt. Gov. Michael Steele. He's a Republican. Kathleen Kennedy Townsend from OUR party ran with a white guy who's a former Republican.)

[linazelle]

56. Once Again...THEY have won

You are repeating Rush Limbaugh's monologue verbatim. He's been saying this, creating this issue, and now this divisiveness--for months. They will and are doing anything to bait, and to divide. It may be good for the Democratic party to wake up and start fighting for the black vote/minority vote, but this is a bad time for them to have to fight now. We are already playing catchup on so many other levels.

[qanda]

72. Assume nothing...

It is very short sighted of the Democrats to keep taking the black vote for granted. I myself left the Democratic party because of this very thing-- I am now an Independent. The black vote seems to be like an old worn out shoe to the leadership in the Democratic party-- it's served you too well to throw out, but it's not good enough to wear out in public. And honestly if the Repukes weren't so reprehensible I would gladly give them my vote to avoid what I see as the same old racist attitude wrapped up in tolerance coming from the Dems.

On edit: spelling

[Muddleoftheroad]

78. Limbaugh

I don't listen to Limbaugh. He's a self-promoting blowhard.

I am not repeating anyone's monologue other than my own. Do you think that asswipe wants to help the cities? Fix education? Provide opportunity?

Based on DU alone, they don't have to bait, and to divide. We do it on our own. Meanwhile, the party and the DLC ignore blacks like we weren't worth the attention. That will come back and bite them on the ass.

Again, I'm sorry this is a bad issue right now, but it exists right now. So deal with it.

[Brian Sweat]

29. I agree

Regardless of your race, you need to vote for the person you believe will do the best job based on your criteria. If Democrats are not responding to the issues that are important to you, then it is foolish to vote for them.

As a died in the wool Democrat it is painful for me to say this, but I believe that our Democratic leaders have taken the African American vote for granted and have failed to deliver in some areas where, to me at least, is seems silly not to deliver.

The biggest area where I think Democrats have let down African Americans is racial profiling, descriminatory prosecution and descriminatory sentencing. Morally it is correct that these practices should be stopped and taking an active stand to stop them would almost assuredly win some serious browny points with the African American community, but Democrats only seem to pay the issues lip service.

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. Worse issues

Our cities have collapsed and the U.S. education system is in chaos. A huge chunk of black America gets locked up for tiny drug crimes and there is no job opportunity in the cities and poor mass transit in many.

Our biggest issues aren't necessarily obviously race.

[Brian Sweat]

36. The number of African Americans in prison is certainly a big issue

I think that it may be the biggest issue facing African Americans.

Why do you think a huge chunk of Black America gets locked up for tiny drug crimes? I don't have the numbers handy, but I know the percentage of people serving time for drug crimes who are black is way out of proportion with the percentage of people who committ drug crimes who are black. This is clearly a race issue. Intentionally or not, African Americans are being singled out for drug crimes.

Another thing to consider is that in this country, there is far less stigma associated with committing crimes than there is with having gotten caught. Tell someone you sold weed in college to make ends meet and they will probably just laugh it off. Tell them that you have a felony conviction for selling weed in college and they will take a very dim view of you. Tell them you spent time in prison and they will probably step away slowly.

White guy sells drugs - goes onto be a lawyer and then a politician.

Black guy sells drugs - goes to jail, is lucky to get a job washing dishes when he gets out and probably cannot vote anymore.

Do I have a little problem with White Guilt - probably, but it's not like it's not a little justified.

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. Many factors

Tons of them:

* Failing families -- much harder on poor people than rich.
* Single-parent families -- once you lock up a bunch of black men, their kids don't have a father around to help. That perpetuates the cycle.
* Lack of opportunity -- That should be obvious.
* Lack of education -- If you know you don't have the eduation to succeed in the real world, why NOT commit crime?
* Money -- It always helps.

[blondeatlast]

43. I've got no problem with school CHOICE, but vouchers use my

tax dollars to send kids to private schools, including parochial (IMHO a violation of the separation of church and state) and corporate (again, my tax dollars supporting private enterprise) schools.

Choice, yes, vouchers, no.

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. What choice

What choice do people in D.C. have? People in Baltimore? Richmond? Detroit? None, nada, zilch.

Maybe one day those systems won't suck. But they do now and the only thing wise parents want to do is get their kids out.

[zoidberg]

75. Do you have a problem with Pell Grants?

Kids can use those to go to private, religious universities. I almost went to a Baptist affiliated school (thank God I didn't), but I would have used government money to attend.

[wndycty]

33. Here is the problem

I do not expect another Democrat to ever get 90% of the vote. We (Blacks) are not a monolithic people. As we progress as a people some of us will become rich, some of us won't, some of us will experience racism, some of us won't, some of us will live in the city, some of us will live in the suburbs, etc. People, all people vote in the self interest, and the self interest of Blacks, Hispanics, women, etc. are becoming more and more diverse. Face it the DNC is going to lose Blacks, it just up to the the DNC to decide whether or not it is going to make the situation worse by taking Blacks for granted.

[Brian Sweat]

38. Well, right now Democrats ARE getting about 90% of the AA vote.

I know that this will not last forever, but we would be foolish not to hang on as long as we can. If 20% of the AA vote switched to the GOP in the next election, the DNC would be so dead it would not be funny. Ignoring issues important to the AA community is not in the best interest of the DNC.

The problem is that the DNC leaders do not want to be seen as beholding to special interests, but doing what is right is not cowtowing to special interests.

[DavidMS]

42. Wndycty --

you are absolutely correct, all political market demographics need to be studied for the existance of concident intrests within the democratic party. African Americans, like any other group that has traditionaly voted Democratic needs to contribute to the discussion. As an inclusive party (we don't do circular fireing squads or ideological purity tests the way the rethugs do), we need to find out what our base wants.

Our base at this point includes:
* Ethnic minorities (African Americans, Latinos, etc.)
* Religious minorities (Jews, Catholics, etc.)
* Immigrants (Russians, E. Europeans, Latinos, Middle Easterners (thanks bush for getting every Moslem to dislike your party) (note the overlap as both are outsiders).
* Trade Unionists.
* White Collar Workers who are not bussness owners.

The individuals in these groups generaly are united by a desire to better themsleves, socialy liberal/tollerant, and concerned by the concentrations of economic and political power.

The problem issues (in terms of hot button ones for our party) are abortion, gay rights and gun control.

Although women legaly and moraly need control over their bodies, we need to either beat moral conservaties into compliance (like the Catholic Church and certan Prodistant Sects) who will interfer with this perticular right so that its paliatable to conservative catholics. I believe that at least somthing good will come out of the pedophilia scandals in the Catholic Church (reduction in its moral authority over sexual matters). As for the conservative prodistant sects, I feel the same sort of scandal (or somthing equlvilently horid) could reduce the moral authority of conservative prodistant groups.

The same is true of gay rights. We need to undermine traditional sources of morality (religion) and replace it with a philosophicaly based morality. I would sugest Kant or another enlightenment thinker (except Rousseau and his glorification of the "Noble Savage") our fundamental philosophical underpinings must be modernist.

I am sorry for rambling and not having started with an outline.

My essental point is that we have won on economic issues, we just need to deal with the cultural stuff that everyone gets their panties tightly knotted about.

Finaly as we live in an age of insecurity we need a proper foreing policy that acknologes the poly-polar nature of the world and our fundamental chalenges with the lack of infracture and industrual development at home.

[lcordero]

2. A lot of blacks and latinos are getting increasingly angrier

and angrier. After the spectacles in the race for mayor for NYC and the race for governor for NY, I find it more tempting than ever to walk away from the Democratic Party. This isn't the same Democratic Party that I grow up with.

[wndycty]

5. Agreed. . .

I love the Democrats, but they are a lot like a secure but bad relationship. I have no where to go, but I am not always happy with who I am with.

[blondeatlast]

13. wndycty, I agree with you 100%, and I'm a white woman.

The Dems have moved away from their traditional base (which I am part of); yet they still cling to the hope that their traditional base will be with them. That does a lot to explain the anger of the Greens and Deans. The further the move to the center, the more I feel they take me for granted.

What the party leadership hasn't gotten through their heads is that what is causing Brown and Black people to turn away from them is also causing me to be angry and alienated. There are no "your" issues and "my" issues anymore. This administration has proven that when you take a hit, I feel the pain as well.

On edit: clarity.

[wndycty]

15. Yeah. . .

. . .and obviously the Repukes are not rejoicing. Blacks are very distrustful the GOP and if you notice more Blacks are becoming independents because while some of us may be unhappy with the DNC we are still not joining the GOP. The Democrats would be well advised to do something before more Blacks join the GOP rather than switching to indy!

[Skittles]

16. HEY WNDYCTY

I'M WHITE AS A SHEET OF PAPER AND I FEEL THE SAME WAY. :O

[FreeperSlayer]

3. I had to laugh, too

Yep, run right into the arms of Ol' Pappy Repug; he'll take reeaal good care of ya.

[wndycty]

7. Go ahead and laugh. . .

. . .it would be a big mistake.

[Q]

8. It's this type of attitude...

...that's turning off many Blacks. The Dem party has treated Blacks badly since the 2000 selection...starting with their shunning of the Congressional Black Caucus when they demanded investigations into election fraud/civil rights violations in Florida.

- It's time the Dem party 'get over' expecting everyone to blindly follow their 'anyone but Bush*' mentality. Dems should NOT take the Black vote for granted...and that's exactly what they've been doing.

[tjdee]

4. I am in that age group they talk about, and I'm black.

If you notice, it just saying that these people are moving to independent--which really make them swing votes. Doesn't mean they won't vote Dem, just that it won't be as reliable as it was before.

This doesn't mean they're voting for a wingnut like Bush--means they may consider a Republican like Chafee or Bloomberg. Or a third party candidate.

Personally, I'd never ever vote Republican, and I'm not voting third party until the Republican party is shriveled up and losing strength. But that's just me.

While I do hate the "they must court us and kiss our collective ring" thing, I do feel that like any other group, African Americans would like to feel included and made to feel a part of a candidate's thinking. Hiring black (and other minority) staff, showing up in a few black neighborhoods, etc.

[blondeatlast]

6. The threat to civil rights may be a way to bring them back to our tent

Perhaps you missed the point of what they are saying? They are saying that they want to be courted and to know what the party will do for them. And they don't want to be taken for granted.

Why should they be any different than the rest of us?

If the Dems want to win in '04, they have got to look at why minorities and women are turning away. Sadly, many are misinformed about school vouchers and Social Security privatization.

Not to mention, as the article clearly states, that many are too young to remember the civil rights movement. At a time when EVERYONE'S civil rights are at stake, this is a good issue to court minorities with.

Instead of being defeatist, we should look upon it as a challenge and run with it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. School vouchers

How are we misinformed about school vouchers?

I lived in D.C. which has the worst school system in the U.S. I know that it won't be fixed for years, but people (minorities mostly) are still supposed to send their kids there while the white people and the politicians get to opt out?

[buddhamama]

9. i can't understand this attitude

what exactly have they said,except don't take 'us' for granted, listen to what we are saying about our issues(which don't appear to be unreasonable :eyes: and don't assume you have our votes wrapped up.

there is nothing wrong with that. indeed it is about time.

the DEM party has become quite comfortable in their 'we're the only option' role and it shows.

[StopThief]

17. Exactly!!!

"Not only do I not see myself as part of the base," Nnamdi Thompson, a 30-year-old investment banker, told Ms. Spencer at the restaurant, "I wish the Democratic Party would stop seeing me as part of its base. We have more power as voters if they have to come and court us."

A 32-year-old lawyer, a friend of the other two who did not want his name used because he is in state politics, said: "I question whether the party sees us at all. First they calculate who they do not want" to alienate. "Then they decide on acceptable losses. We seem to fall into the acceptable losses."

The fact that the party and most of the people at DU assume that every minority must vote Democrat, shows little respect for them as people. Everybody should have the right to prioritize the issues and make judgments of who to vote for themselves. Not just white men. Any party that takes any group for granted because they ASSume they have nowhere else to go is in for a rude awakening. I would think that a group that gives a party 90% support should at least be listened to by the party.

[wndycty]

10. What you guys do not understand is. . .

. . .both Blacks and Hispanics are socially conservative, which should mean that most of us would be Republicans, BUT the Republicans are FUCKED when it comes to social issues that relate to CIVIL RIGHTS. If the GOP ever demonstrated a true and sincere commitment in this area the Democrats would probably see a MASS EXODOUS, but fortunately for the Democrats this is not the case. Sooner or later the GOP is going to get it right (most likely later).

Additionally a number of my brothers and sisters are climbing the economic ladder and like many whites they vote with their pocket books. I am not saying they are right to do so, but you have to understand that they feel any connection to the social programs that may have aided them in education and careers.

[BOSSHOG]

11. Democrats haven't kissed my ring

I'm a 49 year old white veteran. I think I'll just dump them and vote Republican. I'll help the nazis stack the supreme court with fascists, that'll show them damn democrats. Who the hell needs civil rights anyway? I'll ensure we have so many tax cuts there won't be any money left to fill potholes let alone fund social security, medicare, and all the rest of that liberal crap. We'll tear down any and all governmental regulations designed to aid the environment. If you get a nuclear waste site in your backyard tough. We'll have prisoners start making Whites Only signs. Those dems didn't kiss my ass, didn't do anything for me. I'll show em.

[wndycty]

14. Are all 49 year old white veterans. . .

. . .expected to vote for the Democrats? Think about it. You are a Democrat because it issues fit you Mr. Bosshog. I don't think any party has a lock on the 49 year old white male vote the way the Democrats have had a lock on the Black vote.

[BOSSHOG]

19. Vote for whomever you want to

I don't understand the concept of a lock. Do you feel imprisoned? If so, get inside some other parties tent, there is nothing stopping you. You are not required to vote for a democrat because you are black. You vote for a democrat because it is in your best interest when considering the alternative. I would hazard a guess that most voters in my category probably vote GOP. I'd rather stick with the tenants of a more liberal, more rights for all kind of party. Its a selfish vote on my part. If we all have the chance to get a piece of the pie, fewer of us go hungry, fewer of us have needs, fewer of us get left behind and more of us are happy. I don't see the republicans offering that. I truly believe that blacks in America have benefited greatly by the actions of elected democrats. Consider the alternative.

[wndycty]

21. I think that was the whole angle of the article.

Blacks are more and more talking about voting for whomever they want to, not just Democrats. Like you I am a liberal and I am not going anywhere, not because I am Black, but because I am liberal. But more and more Blacks don't share my ideology.

[CWebster]

12. The activists feel that way as well

thus the migration into the Green Party.

The DLC was a one trick pony and does not represent or respect the interests, concerns or issues of the party's voices.

[wndycty]

18. LET US NOT FORGET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The fucking loyalty the CONGRESSIONAL BLACK CAUCUS showed Gore, even going to the SENATE and DEMANDING that at least ONE, ONE, ONE fucking Democratic Senator object to the approval in the 2000 Election results. And not ONE, ONE, ONE Democratic Senator did a DAMN THING. Now people are going to lecture me that Blacks should blindly support the DNC. GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK!!!!

[tom_paine]

86. I will never forget what the CBC did in 2000...heroic.

And yes, wndycty, I completely agree with you that the Senate Democrats dropped the ball BIG TIME by not supporting this move.

The CBC walkout was a fitting Final Act for the Old Republic, if indeed that institution is truly dead.

But the Reougs continue to divide us, and shades of 1933 Germany...

[OHdem10]

20. Young blacks tell Dems to take notice

As a white female, it seems it is a natural feeling not to want toe be taken for granted. Unfortunately our party can give this impression. They have gotten into the habit of waiting until just prior to an election to be in touch with black community. There are times when Congress ignores the Cong Black caucus and Hispanic Caucus. More often the black caucus. No matter how much you might be irritated with this comment, the Black Community is partof our base. We cannot win many elections at any level without them. The same way the party would like to ignore activists such as you and push a candidate of their choice on us, blacks have feelings also.

A few meetings and contact throughout the year irregardgless of whether there is an election would go along way to keeping our party unified and working together. This goes for Activists too. Communication solves a lot of problems. If you watach C-Span you will see Republicans meeting with their base and Activitsts year in and year out irregardless of election time. Religious Right, the Conservatives, every group. As much as it hurts to admit it the Republicans are much better organized as party than Dems.

They Blacks and other activists are not going to vote Republican.
Feeling rejected they stay home. This gives Republicans higher
turnout.

[blondeatlast]

24. As Will Rogers said:

"I don't belong to an organized political party. I'm a Democrat."

But you are so right--the contact needs to be there off-election as well as on. Not just with minority interests, but with all of us.

[Eloriel]

22. Oh, I get it, Pete

Now that your white male ass is in trouble, you KNOW you need help and you're getting very worried that the votes we've always taken for granted might not be there.

Tsk, tsk.

There's a solution for the party, you know. HEAR and acknowledge the complaints, whether you understand them or not (though it would be far better to understand them), and get busy doing something about those complaints and it better be more than mere pandering.

Eloriel

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[wndycty]

26. Yeah

I disagree with you on this one Pete, but I thought it was silly to assume you were white. . .LOL I am glad I did not ass u me.

[Az]

23. Expect more of this

If the Democrats will not listen to their base (be it blacks, liberals, or otherwise) and instead only play polling games and appeals to the center then they are going to create enemies from within. Its simply human nature. We despise those we feel betrayed by far more than a natural enemy.

Simply expecting the base to sit in the back of the bus while the DLC and others run around trying to woo the center/right is a sure fire way to enrich the Green's coffers. The more we play to the center the more center we become. At first it is just politicians playing at being center. But eventually it becomes politicians that really are center with no intention of ever coming back to the left. This is betrayal. Nations around the world reserve the death penalty for traitors because we emotionally react to betrayal stronger than nearly anything. The DLC is playing a dangerous game that is going to shatter the Democratic Party.

[theboss]

30. There are wedge issues

Black support for gay marriages is relatively low. Black support for school vouchers is relatively high.

The attitude that "You can't vote for Republicans, because they are racists" is not going to work forever. Strom is dead; Jesse is out of office; Trent Lott has been marginalized.

We need to find a way to connect on actual issues with young black voters instead of just counting on loyalty.

[Brian Sweat]

39. Yeah, but Ashcroft is the Attorney General

and he is far worse than Strom and Jesse put together.

[GOPBasher]

32. I think everyone should vote for Dems (or at least against repugs)

I don't think it's about black, white, green or purple. I don't care what color your skin is, if you make less than $300,000/yr and you vote for Republicans, you're stupid. You're a moron. Period.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[GOPBasher]

61. Thanks

And thanks again for refering others to this post.

[paulsbc]

35. I agree

good post. I think us Democrats have a horrible record with regard to advancing black issues and black candidates given our history and views. It is definitely something we need to improve on.

One thing that has really annoyed me is the treatment of Sharpton, he is marginalized at every opportunity by a variety of people on the left. Perhaps it is his history that does so, but having a strong black Presidential candidate would do WONDERS for our party and help defeat Bush, IMO. Imagine if we had a black candidate with the capabilities of Gore, a squeaky clean background, and a focus on bringing together the party. I believe that person would win in a landslide over Bush.

[xequals]

68. that person will be Rep. Harold Ford Jr of Tennessee

Not in this election, but in the near future, IMO. The guy is a young, moderate, charismatic Dem who is liked and respected on both sides of the isle -- a rising star. I felt he should've received the house majority leader position (he was rumored for it) instead of Pelosi.

[BOSSHOG]

37. [b]IRONY!![/b]

I'm a white male living in southern mississippi. The gop ignores me because they know my kind will vote for them. Irony. The democrats ignore me because they know my kind will not for them. Irony. I guess I need to whine a little. Nobody loves me. I'm the abandoned voter. Not! I'll vote for whomever I choose based on independent research and my personal wants and desires. Cosmic fucking idea. I strongly urge all to try it. I have vowed to vote for every democrat on the ballot this election and based on the aforementioned research that is in my best interest.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

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[GOPBasher]

58. Exactly!

I'll vote for whomever I choose based on independent research and my personal wants and desires.

That's my point too. I don't think people should vote for Dems just because they're black, but I DO think everyone making under $300,000/yr should vote Dem, or at least against Repugs.

[jagguy]

41. better pay attention to this

obviously the party is NOT making a case for at least some blacks.

You can act amazed at this and tell them how foolish they are or you can wise up and realize that you have to sell yourself EVERY DAY and take nothing for granted.

HOw do YOU like being taken for granted personally ?

This is no joke and you consider it to be one at your peril.

[Name removed]

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[sangha]

45. Sangha Tells Blacks to Take Notice

This nation and our form of government are under attack and it's time to decide what role you will play in the upcoming battle. If you join the battle as a comrade-in-arms, then you share in the victory, but if you act as a mercenary and demand payment before you give your vote, you will get your pay and nothing more.

If circumstances were different, I'd be one of the first to side with you because you are absolutely correct. You are being taken for granted. However, there are times, and we are right in the middle of one, when one should put one's parochial interests to the side, and make sacrifices for the Greater Good.

This is still a free country. The choice is yours.

[CWebster]

46. Good post, sangha

but otherwise you can jump in the lake.

;-)

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. I see your point

But we have been getting ignored for years. I am not advocating running away. But the Democratic Party needs to take notice and take action NOW. Not later.

[sangha]

51. Despite my previous post, I agree with you

I do think the Dems do need to do more. However, the months before a Presidential election is not the best time to make demands, given the circumstances. If the circumstance were different, then a Presidential campaign is the *best* time (see Jesse Jackson's run)

[Muddleoftheroad]

52. When then?

If * wins, then are we supposed to wait till 2008? What if Jeb or some other moron wins then? 2012? 2016?

African-Americans have spent much of their history in this nation waiting for things. Meanwhile, our children are dying and our men are locked up.

No, sorry, been there. Done that.

The party needs to step to the plate and come up with a plan to fix things that are wrong, not just try to get elected.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

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[Muddleoftheroad]

54. No it isn't

I am not creating another party or advocating running from this one. I am saying that OUR party needs to step up and do something or run the risk of alienating a group that voted 91% Democratic for Gore.

The Greens are not Democrats. They are another party. We are Democrats. Hear us before it is too late.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

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[sangha]

57. Thank you, muddle

It most certainly is NOT a variation of the Green/Dem debate. For the record, it would be hard to find someone more supportive of the interests of AA's (and other minorities) than me, even if you went into the black community itself. And I would like to point out that my notice did not threaten to give or withold support for any issue based on how blacks vote.

My point goes to the nature of the black communities relationship with the Democratic Party. They can be "business partners" or they can be "friends". The choice is theirs to make, and they have every right to make that choice based on what they perceive to be their best interests. However, I would hope that black voters will realize that people rarely give gratuities to their business partners.

[CWebster]

59. Before it is too late for what?

Many of the Greens were previously Democrats. It isn't as if the Greens appeal to voters out of the Republican base, so they are often alienated Democrats. When you say, "hear us before it is too late", isn't it the same warning that if you abandon us, we will abandon you? Either you go to another party or you don't vote. Either way, it is the Republicans who
gain the advantage and then none of us win. The way the system is set up, if the Democrats divide, they lose.

[sangha]

64. Blacks won't vote Green

They'll just stay home on Election Day. That's the difference

[CWebster]

65. Same difference

Either way the Dems lose.

[JVS]

66. a comment here

We hear a lot of people hear saying a vote for the Greens is a vote for Bush. That is not true. The effect of a Green vote most closely resembles the decision to stay home and not vote at all. So disgruntling and turning off black voters is really a lot like the Green problem.

On edit: In fact they can both be described as "A group with a high propensity to vote democratic decides not to vote democratic, but also not republican"

[sangha]

69. I disagree

I think there's a difference between those who stay home and those who vote Green.

The Green Party, and it's supporters, are in the habit of claiming the non-voters as their own. I think that's a fallacious attempt to portray themselves as more representative than they really are. The truth, the Green Party has achieved little to nothing for the black community.

[JVS]

71. What is the difference in result?

[sangha]

73. The diffs in results are

1) Lower overall turnout, which is interpreted as voter apathy
2) Lower returns for the Greens, which is interpreted as low support for Greens
3) Studies show that the lower the turnout is in a given community, the less tax dollars it gets in services like road repair, garbage collection, etc.
4) Politicians ignore you. Politicians pay attention to those that vote, not those who stay home. It's easier and less expensive to attract the votes of independent voters, than independent non-voters.

[JVS]

76. So you are saying that

Voting Green is better than staying at home if one is disguntled with the Democratic party, because then politicians will pay more attention to you.
Thus should angry black voters vote Green?
Point 3 is debatable because we don't know whether low turnout causes low funding or low funding causes low turnout, or even if they have a causal relationship. After all correlation is not causation.

[sangha]

77. No, I'm not saying that.

1) Voting Dem is better than staying home.

2) Angry black voters should vote Dem and encourage other angry black voters to vote Dem. The more blacks vote for Dems, the more Dems are beholden to blacks.

3) Correlation might not be causation in this matter, but IMO it's best to act according to the best available info, and that info strongly suggests that voting affects the level of govt services.

And what I'm *really* saying is that blacks (or Greens, or anyone else) are better off changing the party from within. The Democratic Party's position, like most every other party, is that if you think you can change us by extorting from us, then you are not a "friend"; You're just a mercenary, and get treated like one.

[Muddleoftheroad]

79. I agree in part

Boy, it's nice to be working in concert for a change.

I agree with one, but two maybe not. We can't vote much more for Dems. We're maxed out. It will only go down from here. Many African-Americans are social conservatives and would disagree with much that is advocated by the progressive wing of the party (and here on DU). If the GOP ever understands this and does more than just throw blacks a bone, a good number will defect.

How many Colin Powells, Condi Rices and Michael Steeles will it take before some blacks start seeing THAT way as a way of opportunity?

As for changing the party from within, THAT is the reason for my posts. But I won't run and many others will.

[sangha]

83. about #2

It's true that the blacks who vote vote heavily Dem. However, overall the black community has a low turnout rate. While it's unlikely they can get the 90+% Dem vote any higher, they can improve the overall black turnout rate.

90% of a small # is still a small #. 90% of a large # means lots of influence.

If the GOP ever understands this and does more than just throw blacks a bone, a good number will defect.

The GOP does understand this, but if they even tried to do what they need to do to attract black votes, then their racist white "base" will leave them. Socially conservative blacks know that the GOP is against abortion and homosexuality. They know that on many social issues the GOP is closer to them than the Dems. And yet, they still vote Dem.

They know what's important, and they know that a Powell and a Rice is not even close. They want AA, minimum wage, reform of the criminal justice system, no racial profiling, gun control, an effective War on Drugs, etc. If the GOP did those, they wouldn't be the GOP.

[Muddleoftheroad]

91. Not sure I agree

I think the GOP has the big tent theory and executes it better than we do. They might hate each other, but then they vote together. If they can keep the good ol' boys in line enough to embrace the conservative part of the minority communities (Black, Asian and Hispanic), then we are seriously fucked.

I disagree about the things they would have to give. The GOP is big on business and pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps. What they have to do is what we have to do -- rescue the cities. They could rationalize that. Whoever does that solves a host of other problems and will win or keep the AA vote.

[acerbic]

81. Just asking: take WHAT ACTION exactly?

But we have been getting ignored for years. I am not advocating running away. But the Democratic Party needs to take notice and take action NOW.

WHAT should the Democratic Party do so that you wouldn't feel ignored? I don't remember if it's ever been specified in these squabbles and it would be somewhat interesting to know...

Would it be enough to just put a few people into some public positions and screw the rest like the repukes are doing?

[tom_paine]

89. Good post sangha

The entire American Experiment is at stake here.

[cap]

47. actually blacks have more in common with the ...

democratic BASE than they do with the party... the base is rumbling and the leadership takes no notice.

The Congressional Black caucus has had more spine in defending the rights of ALL Americans (not just the blacks) than most of the white congressmen and senators.

Clinton did get to be known as the "First Black President" because of all the changes he made at all levels of government that helped blacks.

It's time to come together under the big tent...It's time we all realized where our true interests really lie. Civil rights for blacks is a defense of rights for ALL of us!!! Economic opportunity for blacks is equal opportunity for all!!! We must think in terms of community not as separate rights groups. We want a community where skin color is as meaningful a differeniator between people as hair or eye color.

[Classical_Liberal]

60. what is your point

Since this argument has been made for 2 decades without becoming reality They do vote overwhelmingly for democrats. More loyal than any other ethnic group? It is just one guy quoted in the Times, and he probably works for a neocon thunk tank.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

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[wndycty]

67. Interesting point Peter, but lets take it further

You said:
"Like I said, no matter what your race or ethnicity, if you do ANYTHING to help Bush retain his position in 2004, you're damaging yourself and the country."

I agree with this point. But lets take it further, understanding that there is a potential problem with losing some Black votes, if we want to defeat Bush the DNC has a responsibility to take the concerns mentioned in the article literally. I would hate to see Bush win because of voter apathy in the Black community, especially when something could be done to prevent it.

[mandyky]

63. Making excuses for the Dems to ignore their base voters

This kinda thinking is what drives Greens and others from siding with us. Either we're a big tent or not. We could act like one.

[sangha]

70. Right

Minimum wage
Oppose 3 strikes
oppose DP
motor voter
increased funding for EEOC and other civil rights offices
support AA
oppose redlining
etc

I wish the Dems would ignore me like that.

[lcordero]

74. When Bill Clinton was in, why didn't he dismantle FEMA????

Or try to abolish any of the powers associated with Martial Law?

I'm really concerned about FEMA because of statements made at this web site:
http://www.sonic.net/sentinel/gvcon6.html

The first targets in any FEMA emergency would be Hispanics and Blacks, the FEMA orders call for them to be rounded up and detained. Tax protesters, demonstrators against government military intervention outside U.S. borders, and people who maintain weapons in their homes are also targets. Operation Trojan Horse is a program designed to learn the identity of potential opponents to martial law. The program lures potential protesters into public forums, conducted by a "hero" of the people who advocates survival training. The list of names gathered at such meetings and rallies are computerized and then targeted in case of an emergency.

[The_Golden_Child]

80. I think you took him the wrong way..

He's not upset because Democrats know (or think) in advance that he's voting for them, but rather he's upset that they assumed his political affiliation. Maybe he really is affiliated with another political party-- Green, Republican, Libertarian, Natural Law, or whatever.

[The_Golden_Child]

82. Blacks can only vote one way?

Personally, I have always been angered by fellow liberals who think it's bizarre for blacks to vote other than Democrat. To be honest, I think is stinks of unconscious racism. Think about it: All blacks must think/vote/believe the same way? This is absolutely ludicrous. No one expects this of any other ethnic group. No one is surprised that whites have differing political views-- from the far left to the far right. No one would be shocked to find out that some Bosnian-Americans are conservative while others are liberal. Again, some Asian-Americans lean to the right, some to the left. This is true of all people, regardless of the amount of melanin in their skin-- including African-Americans.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

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[The_Golden_Child]

85. Obviously, they don't think that...

Maybe women and minorities who vote Republican don't believe they are "painfully at odds with their own self-interest". Perhaps they are conservative. Perhaps they are ultra-religious types.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

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[The_Golden_Child]

88. And if you asked them...

they would explain how they believe conservative, Repug policies on these issues are the better policies. If they didn't think that, they wouldn't vote for them.

Look, all I'm saying is it's a bit naive to just write off everyone who disagrees with you or me as some sort of "looney" or "sell-out". Do you really believe that their are no genuine conservatives?

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

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[Undemcided]

92. Well said.

The view that black people all must have the same political view is just so condescending to black people. Branding blacks that don’t vote Democrat as race traitors and uncle Toms just has to stop.