is there a point to public education at all?

[ulysses]

Feel free to offer elaboration, but I'll be satisfied with a yes or no at this point.

[Book Lover]

1. Well, sure

On our side, public education offers everyone the opportunity to get their standard, decent education, using the collective monetary resources of the community, gathered through taxation.

On their side, public education offers those in control of the system the opportunity to churn out ill-educated people to labor away in mind-numbing jobs.

[ulysses]

3. much as I agree with you

there are those here who, for all I can tell, don't, at least in the particular. Well said at any rate. :)

[rock]

2. Well, it is extremely political but

it does serve to socialize and (somewhat) educate. So, yes.

[bigwillq]

4. Yes. I'm a big supporter of public education

I'm a public school product all the way and I turned out fine. We need to support our public school system. It gives every child t he opportunity to get an education without paying tuition. Public schools are community based and we should support them. It's the American way

[ulysses]

7. thank you.

:)

[bobbieinok]

5. YES - US was founded/developed with idea of free educ for all

so we learned in school about Horace Mann etc

we just have to keep close watch on the superintendants and principals who think the whole thing is about them

and be willing to support the public schools with adequate funding

and not let any attack get past us

private schools/home schools mean that those who have the money or the time and education will be able to give their kids a good educ - those who have no choice but poorly funded/supported schools will suffer greatly

WHEN DID US PEOPLE BEGIN TO BELIEVE THAT TAXES ARE EVIL????????????

[BabsSong]

6. Hell no--let's just let those who can afford it get educated

Screw the rest of this country. If you are born either middle class or poor you do not deserve to be educated and then Amureka doesn't have to outsource because you are the next dumb peons who will work for 25 cents per day. What a goddamn stupid question. What do you think ever built this goddamn country????? Oh, and did anyone stop (doubt it) to realize that if they go "private" it's private paid for by public tax dollars. So the goddamn morons who today don't want to have their taxes raised 5 cents for education will have under a private system, their taxes raised 100000000000000000 percent to give exactly the same services. There is nothing more lucrative than a goddamn govenment paid private contract using tax dollars---ask the military/industrial complex and their blank check!!!!!

[AP]

8. There are only two ways to create wealth in America:

-either by getting paid for your labor, or by getting a return on an investment of capital.

If you start off rich, you have access to capital and you can worry less about getting paid for your labor.

If you're like most Americans, all you have when you're born is your is your labor. If you can't get a fair rate for your labor, you're screwed.

The best way to increase the value of your labor is through education and experience. When you're young, you don't have experience, but you can get an education.

Now, if you're trying to maximize the value of your labor because you don't have much capital, you have a problem with getting an education, which is that you don't have the money to pay for it.

Of course, you can get a loan, but that's forcing you to finance your own economic development while giving a huge cut to the private bank which gave you the loan. That's where public education comes into play. Public education is the best way to help people maximize the value of their labor, when they have nothing else to trade on.

For many people, this is their only entre into the middle class. And having a big, wealthy middle class is not only crucial for having a competitive wealth-producing economy, it's crucial for democracy.

Public education is the cornerstone of a functioning society.

[Serenity-NOW]

15. Public education is the cornerstone of a functioning society

That's the fact Jack.

[JanMichael]

9. Of course there is. It's main purpose is to create uncritical consumers.

It's second is to serve as a baby sitting service so both parents can be in the workforce.

Easy peasy.

[ulysses]

11. so let's talk.

It's main purpose is to create uncritical consumers

According to whom? I'm a product of public schools, and I know that there are valid leftist critiques of the public education system as currently realized in most places, but I'm talking about a more classroom-level goal as opposed to the political interference and it's aims. Or maybe you see them as the same, in which case we just disagree, Michael.

Is there any point to education at all?

[JanMichael]

13. They aren't the same, don't worry.

The classroom goal should be critical thinking and my public school actually did that. Not all do now, I've heard.

I was mostly being facetious:-)

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

107. Many teachers are still teaching

critical thinking skills. I am one of them. They have to always tell me WHY they say what they do. They have to THINK and back up their opinions. I teach them to be critical consumers of information.

Etc.

[gate of the sun]

146. 2 questions

when were you educated? What were your parents like?

[Lorien]

152. Survival, growth as a human being, knowledge for

knowledges sake. Those are just some of the reasons for an education. It's difficult to manage in our society without basic reading and math skills-just ask any adult who is currently taking a fundamental reading course. It's difficult for me to comment on public education because I attended to a private grade school and an accelerated High school (my grade school was of the no desks/flower power school bus/ love bead wearing hippy teacher variety, but nearly every student ended up at an Ivy league university, so obviously it worked for us). I believe that human beings have an intrinsic desire for greater knowledge, but modern society causes us to to disengage from that need by overwhelming us with information-most of it disjointed commercial sound bites-that in the long term cause that part of us to virtually shut down and rebel against anything challenging. Hence the "rah rah" attitude of so many Americans for the war. I read somewhere that a seventy year old man in 1900 had about as much information stored away as a 17 year old does today-it's just that the Victorian fellow's knowledge may have consisted primarily of things like Latin, geography, and the classics, while the 17 year olds head is filled with jingles for Ford trucks, pop lyrics, and last night episode of "Smallville".

[H2O Man]

10. Yes.

First, if republicans ever point a finger and say, "You, sir, appear to be a socialist!" it allows me to point out that the majority of us send our children to public schools which are by definition socialized education. Then, I say if K thru 12 is free, I believe that college education should also be free. The better educated the population is, the better off our country will be. I do think rich folks should have private schools if they want, but like religious schools, they should not benefit from state or federal funds. The only problem I have with the educational system in general is that it tends to encourage young people to equate success with money-making careers. Read A.S. Neill's Summerhill for a better understanding of what education should be.

[BabsSong]

22. H2O---they equate success with "money Making??" what planet do

you live on?? That's why the right hates them. They don't. They equate success with intellectual and personal fulfillment. The right wants them taught that money equals success. You just crapped on America's teachers--just like the rest of the scum country who has to have someone to blame because junior is an unsuccessful, will be with us for eternity, asshole. Come to think of it, if we didn't have public teachers to blame for that, this country would psychologically fall apart.

[H2O Man]

39. You seem to be in a foul mood this evening.

I had read some of your earlier postings. Perhaps you are having a bad day. But just for the sake of conversation, let me correct one of your errors here. I didn't mention teachers, as you have somehow concluded. Hence, I could not have "crapped" upon them. Schools, my friend, are made up of far more that the teachers in the classroom. There are administrators, and school boards, and there are even politicians who sit in plush offices and make decisions about how much money any public school will receive. Now, as for your name-calling this evening: perhaps you should consider what your goal is. If it is to take part in a meaningful conversation, you're nasty language is not going to help you convince anyone you have anything of value to say. If you are intoxicated, perhaps you should watch tv and sleep it off. If you are merely trying to offend people, then I'm a poor target. I'm not easily offended.

[Ilsa]

12. Everyone stands to benefit, at least indirectly,

from a broadly, well-educated population. You'll appreciate it even more as an older adult needing smart nurses and doctors, politicians who have a sense of history and philosophy, etc.

[library_max]

14. YES.

It's like public health. No matter how rich you are, no matter how much access you have to the top medical talent the country has to offer, if you're living among people with tuberculosis, dysentery, AIDS, etc., your own health is going to suffer, or at least your risks are increased.

In the same way, the ignorance of the masses hurts those who can afford private education. For one thing, ignorant masses vote. For another thing, the staff at the nursing home tends not to be made up of Harvard grads. So the question becomes, how illiterate and angry (at lack of hope, future, etc.) do we want the less-fortunate of our young people to be?

Therefore, it is in everybody's interest, rich or poor, parents or not, to provide the highest possible quality of public education.

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. In theory, public education is a grand idea

In practice, it works in some places and in others it fails miserably.

Poorer school districts or those with minority students are not the kind of schools anyone wishes to send their children to.

And don't just talk funding. D.C. is the third highest in per pupil spending and the system is atrocious. It doesn't educate, it processes. Heck, it doesn't even protect. One student was killed in a classroom this year. Other violence and drug use is routine.

And D.C. isn't alone. Those who promote the idea of the magnificent public school system tend to represent either a) the teachers who don't tolerate a single disparaging word about the failures of our education system or b) those in suburban school districts.

[library_max]

20. Have you taught in the public schools? I have.

Per pupil spending doesn't tell the story, especially in an extraordinarily expensive place like DC. Teachers and administrators can tell you what's needed to fix education in their schools and their districts, but politicians think like Gradgrind and appropriate like Scrooge (pre-ghosts). The teachers would teach the kids if the politicians, parents, and taxpayers would let them and support them. But there's always enough money for prisons, never enough for schools.

[BabsSong]

27. library--Thank you and this stupid idea a lot of people have that

inner core means "failure" is ignorant -- try a little, ahhh, eduacation. What's done on a shoestring budget with kids who cannot even speak English and those who live on the streets, etc. is amazing. If our fucking corporations could brandish such success their stocks would trade for a billion bucks per share on the stock market. It's just that we give no value to education nor teachers. Fine. Once they rot in hell and have other nations overtake this place, they might change their minds. It's mind blowing to have the parents of these poor imigrants treat you as a God---when is the last time an American parent treated a teacher that way??? Ohhh, I forgot...it's not THEIR parenting skills fault...it's the teachers!! Go live in another of your stupid fantasy lands, Amureka......

[ulysses]

28. yup.

The teachers would teach the kids if the politicians, parents, and taxpayers would let them and support them. But there's always enough money for prisons, never enough for schools.

DAMNED well said.

[Muddleoftheroad]

35. Per pupil is the beginning

Even adjusted for locality, DC is still about 13th out of 51. Money is not a be-all and end-all.

Yes, the teachers would teach, but what would they teach? One of the many reasons for the home school movement is that folks on the right and the left don't like what their kids learn in school.

[library_max]

156. Yes, a lot of parents would rather their children be taught ignorance.

That evolution is a myth, that slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War, that literature is the exclusive product of white males, that European settlers came to this country to free the Native Americans from - uh - savagery, that their parents' brand of Christianity (whichever one it happens to be) is The Way And The Truth, and that anyone who differs from them in pigmentation, religion, or opinion is inferior, degenerate, and going to hell. Yay for home schooling.

[Muddleoftheroad]

157. Nice and uninformed slam on homeschooling

People on both sides of the political aisle homeschool. They do so in many cases because their local schools aren't any good.

Yes, some people believe, wrongly I would argue, that evolution is false. Even living in the South I have not met anyone who thinks that slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War. While literature is NOT the exclusive product of white males, much great lit has been written by them. Much of that literature was the foundation for our education system.

Clearly, based on many of the threads today, the idea that some folks think they are better than others is NOT the exclusive property of Christians.

[library_max]

166. I've met a lot of homeschooled kids and their parents.

And I stand by my characterization. Regarding slavery and the Civil War, I guess you've never followed any of the highly public controversies about flying the Confederate flag over public buildings in the south, or including it in state flags.

[redqueen]

188. In fairness, I'm considering homeschooling

A troubling couple of incidents have occurred, and I'm going to be checking into homeschooling for next year.

It makes me sad. :(

[LeahMira]

216. Recommended Reading...

One of the many reasons for the home school movement is that folks on the right and the left don't like what their kids learn in school.

Joan Del Fattore has written a couple of books on this topic... What Johnny Shouldn't Read: Textbook Censorship in America and The Fourth R.

If you are concerned about these kinds of issues, I recommend you read what she has written... and then think about what you can do about it. For starters, she's a very interesting speaker... and no I'm not her agent! I do know her, though, and she's a cool lady.

[greenman3610]

21. the great leveler

I was thinking about this while reading today's WSJ article about India, and how high tech medical procedures like hip replacement are being outsourced there. The point is there is absolutely nothing that can equal the value of a great education in empowering the individual. Whether someone turns out as a mind numbed robot is
not a function of education. Plenty of people have great education and are original
thinkers with great character.
It's tragic that many very creative folks get the idea that education is something that is done to them rather than something that they can take advantage of to
empower themselves and reach their goals. I'm guilty of this myself, and as much of an auto didact as I am, the older I get, the more I appreciate the value of
a standardized knowledge set as a basis for social interaction and economic progress.

[AP]

31. The rich reproduce their class by leaving money to their children.

The middle class usually die without leaving enough that would guarantee anyone any kind of lifestyle.

Public education is the only way we guarantee that the middle class can reproduce itself in America.

It's so much more than standardized knowledge vs creative thinking.

[ulysses]

23. none of which addresses the point.

Is there a point to public education, Muddle?

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. In theory, yes

In practice, it depends on where it is.

[ulysses]

40. so, wouldn't the remedy

be to fix whatever ails the schools that are in the "wrong" places instead of taking money away from them if/when they fail?

[Muddleoftheroad]

43. Not necessarily

Many here seem to think we will magically fix the troubled schools. I think reality is far from that. I have seen the urban school districts collapse over the last several decades. They won't be fixed over night either.

In the meantime, what are we to do with children in those schools? Do we simply abandon another generation of poor and minority students?

[ulysses]

47. ...and here we go...

Many here seem to think we will magically fix the troubled schools. I think reality is far from that.

I agree. It'll take a lot of political will and courage and a lot of money.

In the meantime, what are we to do with children in those schools? Do we simply abandon another generation of poor and minority students?

No, but I'd rather try to save all of them than write off the great majority and send the rest to private schools via vouchers.

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. So your choice seems to be

To save none.

Personally, I'd rather save some.

Imagine the schools are a big ship filled with kids. Well, the ship is the Titanic in urban areas and it's sinking and the kids are going down with it.

In your scenario, you want to try desperately for rescue to save all or most. But somehow, after repeated attempts, no rescue has ever shown up. Well meaning, but unrealistic.

In my scenario, I am all for fixing future ships so they are better. In the meantime, I want to rescue as many as possible because I know damn well no full-scale rescue effort is planned.

[ulysses]

59. nope.

So your choice seems to be yo save none.

No. Yours is a false dichotomy. I choose to fight, tooth and nail, for every last student.

Imagine the schools are a big ship filled with kids. Well, the ship is the Titanic in urban areas and it's sinking and the kids are going down with it.

Again, false dichotomy, true only in the sense that the underfunding of urban schools is a given.

But somehow, after repeated attempts, no rescue has ever shown up.

Gee, I wonder why that is. I wonder where all that "rescue" went.

[Muddleoftheroad]

62. Your choice is idealistic

Not realistic.

We live in a society that is pretty evenly split on most things including education. To expect some major turn of events that will sort all that out is living in a fantasy.

No, it is not just underfunding for urban schools. Urban schools have been in a crisis for decades. It's a crisis of crime, drugs, easy promotion, bad education, sometimes low funding, corruption and a host of other problems.

The best thing we could do with the urban school districts is blow them up and start over.

But that won't happen because not enough people would agree to it.

So the poor and minorities continue to suffer.

[ulysses]

69. my choice is necessary.

The best thing we could do with the urban school districts is blow them up and start over.

Start over with what?

[Muddleoftheroad]

71. Square one

New schools, new teachers, new administrators.

It's what DC should have done, but they lacked the courage to buck the NEA.

[ulysses]

76. what would it change?

You have the same kids, from the same backgrounds, with the same abilities and lacks. You throw new people at them, many of whom have likely never been in an urban school environment in the role of educator. You throw new people at them who, for all that they have a new perspective, don't know the kids from Adam's housecat.

What, exactly, do you expect to achieve?

[Muddleoftheroad]

78. Like I said, start over

I'd have metal detectors on every school and would not allow weapons or drugs into schools.

I would remove troublemakers and put them in special schools.

And then I wouldn't promote a single kid who couldn't master the basics.

I would also make school year round.

What do I expect? I expect us to have kids graduate who can read, write, spell, do math, learn science and be constructive members of society.

[ulysses]

86. ok

I'd have metal detectors on every school and would not allow weapons or drugs into schools.

Thus most public schools.

I would remove troublemakers and put them in special schools.


Yes, I remember your prescription regarding "special schools" for special needs kids.

And then I wouldn't promote a single kid who couldn't master the basics.

Isn't that the core of the current problem? How would you solve the problem of kids who can't master those basics by a certain age? More "special schools"?

I would also make school year round.

Agreed.

What do I expect? I expect us to have kids graduate who can read, write, spell, do math, learn science and be constructive members of society.

So does every teacher in the country.

[Muddleoftheroad]

87. However, the question remains what we do in the meantime

and there you and I are FAR apart.

Metal detectors: Many schools don't have them. T

How do you feel about putting disruptive students in special schools?

Kids who can't master the basics get held back and go to special programs. They can't just move on or hold back the other kids.

Do you honestly believe the last part?

[ulysses]

96. indeed.

and there you and I are FAR apart.

Seems fairly simple to me. Increase funding immediately, hire more teachers immediately, work.

Metal detectors: Many schools don't have them.

Go nuts, just don't take a dime from the general educational fund for them. Why not corporate sponsorship? They sponsor ever damn thing else in public schools. "School security, brought to you by ADT."

How do you feel about putting disruptive students in special schools?

I think it's crap for most kids who get labeled as "disruptive".

Kids who can't master the basics get held back and go to special programs. They can't just move on or hold back the other kids.

You know why they get the basics in private schools? Because class sizes are smaller, and teachers can spend more time on a problem area. It's that simple. Hire more teachers.

Do you honestly believe the last part?

Do you honestly think that most people in education hang around waiting for that huge paycheck?

[Muddleoftheroad]

97. No, in the real world

Remember, we got to this point with the NEA and academics in charge. And people on both sides of the political aisle don't trust them. So the last thing they will do is throw massive money at them.

I like the sponsorship idea. It's cool. It's creative.

Sorry we don't agree about disruptive kids.

Actually, I don't think private school class sizes are that much smaller. I agree that they are self selecting and that does help. But the public schools need to be more so.

I honestly believe SOME in teaching are doing their best. It is beyond obvious that many are not.

[ulysses]

100. good god.

Actually, I don't think private school class sizes are that much smaller.

My biggest class numbers eight students. Eight.

Actually, I don't think private school class sizes are that much smaller. I agree that they are self selecting and that does help. But the public schools need to be more so.

The essense of public education is that it accepts all comers. How is it that you don't understand that?

[Muddleoftheroad]

112. Wow, where do you teach

That's lower class size than any place I ever even met in DC, including tony spots.

I am not advocating that public school reject anyone. It's where they put that it is at issue.

[ulysses]

113. !

I am not advocating that public school reject anyone.

You most certainly are.

[Muddleoftheroad]

117. Not hardly

I am advocating that the public schools take troublesome students and place them in other schools.

[ulysses]

119. you're advocating educational ghettos.

Call it what you like.

[Muddleoftheroad]

121. No, I'm advocating teaching good kids

And getting bad kids out of that classroom and into someplace where they can be taught and not hold back others.

[ulysses]

123. allow me to rephrase.

You're advocating regular classrooms for those you designate as "good" kids and ghettos for those you designate as "bad" kids. Sorry, I didn't make the distinction.

[Muddleoftheroad]

125. Not ghettos

But kids who are violent or who act out in class or who sell drugs at school should not be with the other kids.

You might think so and that is the big disconnect between you and most of the American public.

[ulysses]

129. what else would they be?

Please, tell me - how would the great "Muddle High School For the Behaviorally Challenged" fare when it came time to show Big Brother how well the district was doing for its money?

You might think so and that is the big disconnect between you and most of the American public.

I give a rat's fat ass about whether or not I disagree with most of the American public.

[Muddleoftheroad]

132. Schools for delinquents is what we used to call them

The name still fits.

That school would fare quite well because everybody would want the troublesome youths away from their own kids.

Yes, I have no doubt that you, "give a rat's fat ass about whether or not disagree with most of the American public." And that, in a nutshell, is much of what is wrong with education.

[ulysses]

136. awfully Christlike of you

to cast out the lepers of modern teenage society.

Tell me this, oh pure one and whose children are pure - who makes the grade in your school? Who avoids the "troublesome" label?

[Muddleoftheroad]

138. Who is casting them out?

We are placing them in a school geared toward their problems.

Kids who work hard and don't attack others or sell drugs or disrupt class stay. Kids who cause excessive (please note the word) problems or pose threats to others are moved.

Alas, it is clear to me that many of you only see these kids as theoretical constructs, not as living breathing and often threatening beings. Try living in Southeast DC and knowing that kids in YOUR FAMILY are going to school with gangbangers and drug dealers and there is nothing you can do about it.

[fortyfeetunder]

150. DC is not hopeless.

Just returned from DC (my hometown) and I don't quite agree there is nothing the people in SE can't do to change their neighborhood. If they really cared about their children's education, they would show up to PTA meetings or find some other way to support their schools and they wouldn't condone the cr@p going on in their neighborhoods.

Regardless of location takes a four legged stool consisting of parents, students, teachers& school administration and the community together making public schools work. If one of them is not contributing the "stool" is unstable and cannot support a school.

Even though my childhood home has its problems with the neighborhood, I got some evidence from my neighbors they are trying to do something about the crime and the violence. Neighborhood clubs, block watch, etc.

and oh, BTW, I am a graduate of the DC public school system...

[Muddleoftheroad]

153. Southest

It has no money, no power, too much crime, too much drugs, too much poverty, too much single parenthood, not enough jobs, and no hope. Can parents get involved more? Yes. Would it change things much? No.

[LeahMira]

233. No, what is wrong is...

Yes, I have no doubt that you, "give a rat's fat ass about whether or not disagree with most of the American public." And that, in a nutshell, is much of what is wrong with education.

... that for some reason the American public got into its collective head that there is something wrong with public education. If the public schools rarely or never turned out students who go on to achieve, either in college or in work, then they might have a point. The fact is that 67% of high school graduates go to college, at least for some time. Granted, the unemployment rate is a problem now, but it's certainly below 10% which means that 90%+ of the people are working. The rest can't find jobs, but if the jobs existed they would fill them.

What happened is that some religious folks decided they didn't like public schools teaching their children about evolution or they didn't like their children learning to respect those who are in some way different from themselves. Those folks chose to talk down the schools and disrespect the teachers... in front of their children as well as in the public realm. Pretty soon, a lot of people started blaming the schools, with their alleged "frills," for their own children's shortcomings, and the children began to blame the teachers because their parents had so little respect for teachers.

There's a right wing movement that wants nothing more than to destroy public schools in an effort to dummy down the population to its own dummy level. The religious want to limit what their children learn, especially insofar as what the children learn makes them able to challenge some of their parents' beliefs. Then, there are corporations who would like nothing better than a large group of uncritical, obedient individuals in the workforce... people who just can't quite grasp why they are getting poorer and poorer while a few others seem to be getting richer and richer.

Americans are blaming the wrong culprits and just because a majority of them are making that mistake doesn't make them right.

[callous taoboy]

164. Right , Muddle

easy as pie.

[silverpatronus]

284. dear god muddle...

you cannot be serious. i would think from your avatar that you would understand the inherent failure of 'separate but equal', which is essentially what you are advocating. replace 'troublesome' with 'black' or 'gay' and watch the fur fly.

by separating out the 'troublesome' children, you would be in essence marking them for life. how will they remove that stigma and become productive citizens pray tell, if the people they socialise with are other 'troublesome' students? young people are influenced by their peers. where in these so-called troublesome' schools will they receive positive influence i ask you? from their teachers? show me one 'troublesome' child who is going to give a teacher any credence at all if his buddies are pushing him the opposite way. you may be able to 'save' the same 5-10 students who would be 'saved' in a regular public school.

you accused another here of idealism, but i think that your view is more idealistic than anything that person has said.

[Muddleoftheroad]

293. We have separate but unequal right now

And all I hear are platitudes about how we can make it better -- oh maybe in another couple decades or so. In the meantime, we will lose at least one more generation of young African-Americans, maybe more. We will lose one more generation of the poor, while wealthy suburbanites bemoan the problem.

[LeahMira]

226. That sounds like punishing those who don't learn!

I would remove troublemakers and put them in special schools.

Who are the brave souls who are going to manage this school full of troublemakers? Perhaps drill sargeants?

And then I wouldn't promote a single kid who couldn't master the basics.

So you will have thirteen year olds in second grade?

I would also make school year round.

Don't you get any vacation time off from your work? I'd think that younger students especially would need more time than you do to get away from the daily routine. Even the students at college don't go year-round!

[Muddleoftheroad]

251. Prince George's County did just that

I think it was ROTC or something similar that ran the school. Do you think that the state is somehow unable to run a school for juvenile delinquents when it can run prisons?

[library_max]

237. Does this segregation plan have an age limit?

Lots of kids take several years to "get the hang" of school - not because they're bad kids or because they're stupid. Do kids get, say, the first six years to adjust, or is it off to the gulag for first graders who fall behind or who don't get along with their teachers? The stigma of riding the short bus tends not to go away. It tends to teach kids that they are dumb and useless, whereas they might otherwise have got their act together and been excellent students by the time they got to high school.

LeahMira makes a valid point that it would be extraordinarily difficult to be a teacher or an administrator in these "special schools." Would we offer astronomical salaries to entice professionals, or would we just abandon all pretence and hire prison guards instead? Remember, these special schools would be all the more labor intensive - class sizes would have to be smaller, more disciplinarians and counselors and other support personnel on hand - if the plan was for there to be any chance of teaching these kids anything, once we've put all the "bad apples" in the same barrel.

In short, there's something to the special schools idea if done right, but it would cost great buckets of additional money. Likewise, there's a lot to be said for year-round school, but again it would cost a lot of extra money. You keep saying that any plan that costs money is doomed to failure because parents and taxpayers won't support it. Same goes for your proposals, then.

[Muddleoftheroad]

252. This is not new

In fact, it's the way things used to be and there wasn't the problem with it that many here seem to have.

Private schools can edit. They can pick. They can choose. Until public schools can do that even on a rudimentary level, they will suffer incredibly from a few problem kids.

As for who goes, it would wildly depend on what they did. Kids who harm others or pose a threat to others would go. Other problem children would get progressive discipline, but if they can't adjust, then so be it.

Actually, while the special schools might cost more, I think that would lower the costs for the other schools. It would also make them safer.

[LeahMira]

222. Well...

Personally, I'd rather save some.

... That sounds good, but how are you going to decide which ones to save?

I hope your answer is not "mine." I mean, I hope it's not just "mine."

[Maestro]

52. You want to fix troubled schools?

First start with the ones that operate the school. Once the teaching profession is considered a profession and something is done to attract the best and brightest into public education with salaries comensurate with the task at hand, you will see schools improve. Currently, many troubled schools are troubled because of poor teaching skills by the teachers and the use of curriculums that are poorly organized. So attract motivated, intelligent, teachers that can make a living being a teacher and provide them with a curriculum that stimulates critical thought instead of rote memorization of skills. Oh and also the school needs to open up to the community involving it in any way it can.

[Muddleoftheroad]

55. Salaries

This one always makes me chuckle coming from journalism which is paid less than teaching.

Salaries are lower in teaching because a lot of people want to teach. If there was a limited supply and a high demand, it would be the opposite.

[Maestro]

63. Where are you from?

Texas still pays their teachers an average salary that is in the bottom half of the fifty states. My cost of living keeps going up especially my health costs but my salary is stuck. As a result of the economy I haven't received a pay increase in two years. In fact here is my district's pay scale for teachers. Notice that with more years of experience, my salary does not increase anywhere near the speed in which someone is business or basically any other professional field sees increases, although I do have stability in my job.

http://www.irvingisd.net/schedules.htm

And please tell me how journalists get paid less than teachers on the average? Where is there research on this?

[Muddleoftheroad]

66. I have lived in MD, DC and VA

In none of those places did entry level or mid-career journalists earn on par with their teaching opposites.

[kiahzero]

77. I live(d) in VA, and my mother is working on becoming a teacher

At least in the county she's trying to work in (Fauquier), there's a huge shortage of teachers. They can't find qualified applicants. The qualified applicants are going over to Loudon or Fairfax, where they get paid a significant amount more.

[ulysses]

65. what COMPLETE horseshit.

Salaries are lower in teaching because a lot of people want to teach.

This, of course, must be the rationale behind many state efforts to fasttrack teaching certificates in order to get warm bodies in classrooms.

Keep trying.

[Muddleoftheroad]

67. A lot of people wish to teach

That doesn't mean they wish to teach in every school. Crime, reputation, etc. all factor in.

D.C. has some schools that can't keep teachers because of their fear for their own safety.

[JohnLocke]

279. "A lot of teachers want to teach." LOL.

There's a teacher shortage.

[playahata1]

239. You write:

"So attract motivated, intelligent, teachers that can make a living being a teacher and provide them with a curriculum that stimulates critical thought instead of rote memorization of skills."

One of my cousins is in her second year of elementary school teaching. She doesn't make jack as a teacher (We are in Florida, which is near the bottom nationally in teacher salaries.), so to make ends meet she has to take a second job working part-time in the medical records department at a local hospital.

I don't see how she can handle it: she is at school from 7:30-3:30. She is at the hospital from 4 to 9. She doesn't get home until 10-10:30. She has to plan for the next day either when she gets home -- which means she doesn't get to bed until 1 a.m. -- or just before classes start at 9 the next day. I told her it's a miracle she gets ANY sleep at night.

[Muddleoftheroad]

259. Second year

I have known lots of people who had two jobs, especially in the early "dues-paying" portion of the program. They include cops, firefighters, journalists, salespeople and tons of people in less-skilled jobs.

Yep, it's rough. Life is like that.

[LeahMira]

272. She must be a young woman...

don't see how she can handle it: she is at school from 7:30-3:30. She is at the hospital from 4 to 9. She doesn't get home until 10-10:30. She has to plan for the next day either when she gets home -- which means she doesn't get to bed until 1 a.m. -- or just before classes start at 9 the next day.


Wow! That takes a lot of stamina! I hope that situation doesn't last too long, or she'll be beat before she's thirty. I know you need to be alert to work with elementary school children... they are active little people who don't give a teacher much time to sit down. My cousin's wife taught in Florida for a while, but they couldn't manage on his pay plus what little she was earning. She's working for a funeral director these days and, as she says, the checks are good ($60,000.+ last year!), the families are grateful, and the customers don't give you any grief.

[rman]

145. "Poorer school districts"

"Poorer school districts or those with minority students are not the kind of schools anyone wishes to send their children to."

Does that mean there should be no public schools in those districts either? Then were do these minorities go for eduction?

[LeahMira]

214. Then stop warehousing the kids!

And don't just talk funding. D.C. is the third highest in per pupil spending and the system is atrocious. It doesn't educate, it processes. Heck, it doesn't even protect. One student was killed in a classroom this year. Other violence and drug use is routine.

Then, strange as it sounds, the answer is more money. The money needs to be spent in building more, but smaller, schools and hiring more teachers so the pupil-teacher ratio is more manageable. Teachers need to know the students they teach in order to do the best job of teaching. You also need to give the teachers the materials they need to make their instruction interesting and their approaches as varied as the students they have in the classroom.

Constructing one building for a thousand students probably seems more cost effective than building ten schools that each hold a hundred, but in the smaller building students don't get lost so easily. Hiring one teacher for every ten or fifteen students may seem like a waste of money... especially when that same person can probably manage a group of thirty-five fairly well. But in a class of fifteen, everyone can help one another and there's time to get into discussions and expand on the learning and hear ideas floated.

One of the older teachers that I worked with when I started teaching used to say that even the "dear Lord" could only manage twelve... and they were adults! ... and they still gave him their share of problems.

Kids don't always come from the nicest homes, and school can be a refuge and a safe place for these kids if we make it that way. Or it can be just another place where they are treated like they aren't important or they don't matter.

[Deja Q]

17. I'll happily hyp this one notch further:

Is there a point to education at all?

Nope.

Not now anyway.

A employment counselor friend said he's noticed a pattern with job hires: Companies only want people with EXPERIENCE.

This means anybody in school is wastin' their money. They won't get a real job in the field they're studying until/unless demand for that field increases.

So much for a society that pretends to set itself up for longevity.

We're headed to a crash, not forgetting the other 40 factors... :-(

Edit: Spelling

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. That's why schools include internships and professional contacts

As part of the curriculum in college.

[Serenity-NOW]

19. And the alternative to an informed society is????

Swell, let's just have private schools and those nifty little theocratic setups. That'll work just great for anyone lucky enough to have been born rich.

Then you get a puny segment of society with something resembling an education and most without. Not a pretty picture in the home of the brave land of the free.

[ulysses]

24. relax, I'm on your side.

Just trying to keep this particular conversation afloat. It's a valid question, I think, given the climate.

[doni_georgia]

25. As a public school teacher

I believe very strongly in public education. I could bore you all on a treatise on the importance of public education in keeping our society free, and maintaining our democratic government, but I will spare you all the history teacher's lecture.

Boy you guys are lucky my husband hasn't gotten back from the beer store. Get a couple of beers in me and I'll write a dissertation.

:beer:

Anyone noticing a theme to my posts tonight? We just finished NCLB mandated tests today and I NEED A DRINK!!!!!

:beer:

[ulysses]

26. LOL!

There with you! :toast:

[Lars39]

29. Does this mean you got the job?

Hope so. :) My answer is Yes.

[ulysses]

30. LOL! no news yet.

Hopefully by the end of the week. I've always been a ps kinda guy anyway. Thanks for asking. :D

[Lars39]

32. Just long enough to get you psyched out.,,,

:silly:

[Convinceme]

33. Private V. Public

ulysses

My answer is NO!

My family lives in a very "austere economically challenged environment" and we spend nearly one quarter of our income to private school our two children.

The PS teachers have no vested interest in education! Here some come to work hung over or drink while at work. Sometimes they just don't show up and the government doesn't have enough money for a sub. The kids are on their own at that point. My kids learn in private school and attend summer school when they don't meet academic standards. The teachers have a vested interest in my kids and they aren't afraid to use the word God or say "in God we trust." The school isn't religious nor is it anti religious, life is respected along with nature and respect up and down is the rule.

Teachers unions over protect the teachers "without a vested interest in the nations children" and the rules need rewritten to give them a vested interest.

Education in America should be one of the highest of priorities. Ignorance will turn America into a nation of grasshoppers unable to articulate why.

Latitude18.7

[ulysses]

38. ok

and we spend nearly one quarter of our income to private school our two children.

That's your choice.

The PS teachers have no vested interest in education!

You really think that private school teachers necessarily have any more a vested interest? I teach in a private religious school that pays less than $18k/year and offers little academic freedom and a great deal of the same administrative crap that any other teacher deals with. Think again.

Sometimes they just don't show up and the government doesn't have enough money for a sub.

My school has had fully unqualified parents show up.

The teachers have a vested interest in my kids and they aren't afraid to use the word God or say "in God we trust."

Whoopdieshit. I have a vested interest in my students, and am trying to get into a public school. I can use the word "God" freely, and it affects my teaching ability not one whit.

Teachers unions over protect the teachers "without a vested interest in the nations children" and the rules need rewritten to give them a vested interest.

Teacher's unions are not the problem.

[LWolf]

241. Wow.

In the 21 years I've spent in public education, I have yet to see a teacher come to school drunk. If they did, we'd fire them. Pronto. If they regularly showed up "hung over" in that they weren't able to function properly, they would be written up, counseled, and eventually ushered out.

I've seen good teachers and bad. I've seen teachers I thought should leave the profession. I've also seen good and bad doctors, lawyers, bankers, and business owners. Bad politicians, bad leaders, bad neighbors, and bad parents. There is no group that won't have some outstanding, some middling, and some poor individuals, unless there are no more humans involved. Private school doesn't wave a magic wand over people to make them good at what they do.

I've seen our district not have enough subs to meet the need on a given day; the kids aren't "on their own." That is illegal. And if there is one thing school districts are good at, it is protecting against lawsuits. When there isn't a sub, an administrator fills in. Or we divide the kids up and they spend the day in another classroom, with another teacher. Not the best scenario for learning, but they sure as hell aren't "on their own."

I am a public school teacher. To say that I have no vested interest in education is, in my eyes, a foul slander. I became a teacher because I have a passion for sharing learning. I show up at work every day because I'm determined to offer every one of my students a chance to grow and to find success. I am well-educated, well-trained, well-experienced, and damned good at what I do. Especially given the structure I have to work within. I am incredibly offended by that uninformed remark.

I'm sorry that you feel your local schools aren't doing the job. I wonder if you understand the source/s of the dysfunction. But when you paint me and/or my entire profession with your broad brush, you've crossed over the line of civility. You've moved into the sphere of rabid ignorance.

[LeahMira]

273. One more time...

Teachers unions over protect the teachers "without a vested interest in the nations children" and the rules need rewritten to give them a vested interest.


Teachers' unions are supposed to protect the teachers. They are supposed to agitate for good salaries, safe working conditions, reasonable work hours, and all the good stuff that any other union works for for its members. The teachers' unions are not supposed to work for parents or students or administrators or the state educational bureaucracy. They work for teachers.

That said, there are review procedures and evaluations for teachers. If a teacher seems to be failing in his or her responsibilities to the students in some way, that is noted in the record... and a plan is made to remedy the problem. If the problem persists, the teacher will be dismissed. However, if there is a problem, it needs to be proved to be a problem by some documentation or witnesses or whatever. Charges against a teacher that are unsubstantiated are not, and should not be countenanced.

As to having some sort of "vested interest in the nation's children," I wonder why you think anyone would go into the teaching profession unless that person wanted to help children learn and grow? Teaching is one of the most demanding professions in the world. No one in his or her right mind would choose to teach without that "vested interest" when so many other opportunities are available to college graduates.

[Maestro]

34. As a teacher

of course I am going to say that public education serves a purpose. But keep in mind that most of what the media and politicians moan and groan about is bunk. Sure we have problems, but we are the only system that I know of in the world that accepts anyone regardless of race, religion, creed, sex, socio-economic status, language spoken, physical or mental disabilities, etc...Education will never be successful because that will leave politicians without a huge issue to harp on about in debates. For once, I would love to see a politician say that hey, we aren't doing so badly. Test scores don't tell all the story. In fact, when you look at expectations from 20 years ago for the typical third grader and expectations that we have today for a typical third grader, the jump in academic performance is startling. My kids are expected to be able to write fully elaborated stories. I was barely able to write a complete sentence in third grade. Math skills are not just about memorizing tables. Now we are making the kids actually use logical reasoning to solve problems placing numbers in some sort of context. Reading is not just the phonics, fully decodable text that Bush and his lackeys propose, it is using literature to stimulate critical thought. My kids use thinking maps to organize their thoughts and analyze literature for example and we do it in two languages. And this a public school system.

Our system is so huge and we test so many different students that the law of averages would tend to suggest that the national norms are never going to be outstanding for the US when compared to other smaller countries who are only testing the cream of the crop since most systems either do not test kids are unable or push them onto more vocational paths that require less testing and more manual skills. The US public school system strives to test all. Now, before I am attacked as sounding "freeperish" I am not.

I teach in a low socio-economic area where the vast majority come from homes where English is the second language. However, my expectations are just as high for these kids which is different than most freepers who just want the kids to speak without an accent. Forget about actually teaching them academics.

So yes, public education provides those that otherwise would have no education an education. What makes the difference is how the communtiy allows the public system to teach. Is the community progressive or stuck in the ways of the freepers that continually believe that public schools are a lost cause and vouchers are the answer along with teaching creationism, revisionist history and "the basics?" Public education can do wonders with the right people in charge.

Here are some pics of some budding scientists when we were studying properties of H2O. Permission from parents was given to post pics of the kids. These are also available at my website which currently is having some problems with its site map so it is hard to navigate but here are some direct links.

http://www.irvingisd.net/~spollard/children's_work.htm

http://www.irvingisd.net/~spollard/articles.htm

http://www.irvingisd.net/~spollard/bilingual_debate.htm

http://www.irvingisd.net/~spollard/research.htm

[Maestro]

37. Here are some indications though

that some needed more education.

[ulysses]

42. you could've stopped here

Sure we have problems, but we are the only system that I know of in the world that accepts anyone regardless of race, religion, creed, sex, socio-economic status, language spoken, physical or mental disabilities, etc...

That's exactly the point, and should be. Bunch of good, involved students you look to have. :thumbsup:

[Maestro]

46. Thanks and for what it is worth

they have passed all their dumb politician imposed testing this year so far. Tomorrow we take on the math test.

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. That testing was imposed because kids were being promoted

Without reading or math skills. While it might not be your fault, many teachers and administrators WERE at fault.

[ulysses]

51. and private schools prevent that???

What was it you were saying about magic?

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. Private schools are more willing to hold back failing kids

I've seen it. They aren't constrained as much by politics.

[ulysses]

56. bullshit.

They're constrained by money, the money that comes from parents who won't stand for their kids to be held back, punished, etc.

[Muddleoftheroad]

57. Nope

They also have reputations for the schools, etc. to uphold. Failing some kids or forcing them into extra or remedial work actually HELPS their reputations.

[ulysses]

61. ?

They also have reputations for the schools, etc. to uphold. Failing some kids or forcing them into extra or remedial work actually HELPS their reputations.

Why, then, do public schools that fail kids not enjoy the same reputation enhancement instead of facing government sanction as an "underperforming" school?

When was the last time you really checked out a private school and how it works? When was the last time you spent time in any kind of a classroom?

[Muddleoftheroad]

64. Politics impacts public schools far more

And I am a regular visitor in both public and private schools for both volunteering and family visits.

[ulysses]

72. so you admit

that public schools deserve better than their rep because they're more subject to the political process?

And I am a regular visitor in both public and private schools for both volunteering and family visits.

That wasn't quite what I asked.

[Muddleoftheroad]

73. Not exactly

I am saying they make many decisions based on politics. Private schools have far less of that.

[ulysses]

79. here we agree.

I am saying they make many decisions based on politics. Private schools have far less of that.

That will last exactly as long as most taxpayer money that goes for education goes to public ed. Put a majority of it into private schools, and you'll get the EXACT same political interference. In the meantime, you'll have people like my principal encouraging African-American kids to fail on completely specious grounds with no oversight.

What was your point again?

[Maestro]

54. Not completely true...

The curriculum being used to teach them is also at fault. Plus, parents have the ultimate say on if we can retain children. Many do not want their child retained and do not give permission for this to happen.

[Muddleoftheroad]

58. Oh sure, I'll agree to blame curriculum

However, if kids can't read, you can't promote them. It should NOT be the choice of anyone but the teachers and administrators.

And, btw, one of the major movers in nationwide curriculum is the NEA.

[Maestro]

74. But the current push in curriculum is being

forced down our throats by politicians, mainly Bushies, that love NCLB and its complete reliance on phonics to teach reading skills and other "one size fits all" curriculum ideas which is what the NEA opposes.

http://www.nea.org/reading/

[Muddleoftheroad]

75. I saw a lot of Dems vote for NCLB

And they are promoting one size fits all because they don't like or trust what is being taught in the schools.

[Maestro]

83. Well with all the completely uninformed rhetoric

about what is taught then I can see why the dems voted for it. They are just as unininformed as the republicans. Politicans don't have a clue what is taught. Spending a few hours in a school doesn't let someone know what is going on. Spend a month with me. If after that, you still don't trust the system, move on. Go start your own school, but I bet you'd have a much better understanding an empathy for educators and a realization that the kids are not as bad off as some people think.

There still exists the problem of funding though and providing equal services to all districts in a particular state.

[Muddleoftheroad]

95. Even if YOU teach a kick butt class

It is obvious many schools and teachers do not.

I don't trust the system. Especially in the poor urban areas. I left. I fought my good fight. I lost.

[Maestro]

102. Nothing is perfect

but don't condemn the whole lot.

[gate of the sun]

148. testing is a poor way

to deduct the value of an education. It cheapens the educational process. It's not about passing tests. Learning how to think, to evaluate, to decide for yourself and to apply are the modes of education, I would endorse. Testing encourages memorization without personal applicable content for the most part(in the US education system). Also on another note the history is filled with lies and manipulation to sway the student with patriotism. My son who was home-schooled until age 9 said to me about learning about Buffalo Bill......He said "He was a really bad man. He killed all those Buffalo's". I don't think they teach that in school.

[callous taoboy]

165. They are still being promoted:

The ranks of special ed classes are swelling. The bush approach to education parallels his approach to Iraq: Go in with guns blazing and no plan.

[LWolf]

243. Ignorance at work.

There is a large body of research that shows, over and over and over, that retention doesn't work. Retained kids are overwhelmingly more likely to dropout. And any gains made by a retention are lost a couple of years down the road.

Why don't teachers and schools retain more failing kids? BECAUSE IT ALMOST NEVER HELPS.

It helps if the child was too young to begin with, or if the child has missed a significant amount of school for some reason. It doesn't help motivate. Fear of failing leads to short-term gains, short term efforts to "catch up," but not long term motivation for studying and learning. Retention does not benefit learning disabled students in the least. Learning disabilities don't disappear. They are still disabled at the end of their 2nd year in 4th grade.

Passing the kids on to the next grade doesn't help much, either. There needs to be an alternative. The next year needs to be spent in an intensive, individually planned program that includes parent ed, study skills and habits, and prolonged one-on-one time in a very safe environment. There are no resources to provide that. So you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

I don't have much anecdotal evidence; I've only retained two kids in my entire career. The first I retained in 3rd grade; I have him back this year as a 5th grader. He is further behind now than he was in 3rd grade. Obviously, repeating the curriculum didn't benefit him. The second I retained last year; this year's teacher is horrified, because he has not made the gains he needed to make to keep up with his peers. Holding them back without the resources to address their problems only leaves them further behind.

That testing was imposed to label all public schools failures, in order to further the privatization agenda. It had nothing to do with social promotion, unless you believe everything Bush and his ilk tell you.

[ulysses]

49. may they kick a great deal of ass.

Poor victims of public ed. that they are. :D

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

108. Hey there!

Looks like I teach in a district near you!!!!

I have the same population of kids. Great pictures!

Rock on, teacher!

[Maestro]

110. Fellow Texas teacher?

;-)

[LeahMira]

274. What a great cartoon!

It's not only in Texas, though.

Here's another option... and some good information.
http://www.alfiekohn.org/standards/standards.htm

[aquart]

41. Gosh, no. Peasants don't need to read.

All the good jobs go to the children of doctors and other wealthy professionals who can go to private schools. The bad jobs just require following orders.

Let's abolish public education since we can't remember why people risked their lives to get it and promise it to their children.

Boy, I've read some stupid questions on this board.....

[Maestro]

44. I'm sorry

and I don't mean to sound too confrontational but your statement is nothing more than rhetoric that is not backed up with any facts. I know of many students who have come from nothing to be lawyers, doctors, journalists and God forbit, teachers.

[ulysses]

45. heh

Boy, I've read some stupid questions on this board.....

Perhaps you haven't read my posts on the subject previously. :D

[amazona]

60. yes of course

The point is to make sure that everyone has access to an education. There are some excellent public schools, by the way. We just need to work harder to make them rest of them as excellent.

It can be discouraging at times, but many of us here went to public school and we still have our minds.

For some reason, I suspect there is a juicy story behind your question. Tell!

[LWolf]

68. Yes.

There are several.

The fact that politics can warp, derail, marginalize, or destroy those points don't negate them.

1. Education = literacy. Reading, writing, listening, speaking, and thinking. The more literate a population is, the more they think, the more they communicate, the more they drive the democratic process.

2. Education is the real equalizer. Frankly, public schools are just one piece of the puzzle; not every human is going to achieve an equal level of education or success. Public education gives everybody the opportunity to achieve their personal best, whatever that may be.

3. Public education opens doors that would never open to a vast number of people if their families had to pay for private education.

4. Ideally, public education offers the skills and socialization necessary for a free society to thrive. Thinking, questioning, and making choices. Ideally, public education is politically neutral, allowing all points of view. Privately controlled curriculum isn't going to allow all points of view, and isn't going to present them neutrally. Ideally, public education protects against mass indoctrination.

These are important points, IMPO. Of course, public ed is currently a football running out of air due to the kicks, dives, throws, and general abuse and manipulation it has endured. I say support public education, and stop allowing your reps to abuse it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

70. Now, do you believe public education accomplishes that?

[Lindacooks]

85. If it's supported by the community and tax dollars,

YES

[Muddleoftheroad]

92. Then how do you explain DC?

For one example?

[LWolf]

88. I believe it muddles along, muddleoftheroad.

Sometimes we do a better job; sometimes not. It all depends on how much we are allowed to do.

I don't think we've ever accomplished 100%. We never will. We're humans, always striving for the goal, and doing what we can figure out to get closer to it.

Want to see it happen? Get on the phone and to the post office and to the voting booth and to the school board meetings with this:

A very few, very broad, general national standards that are:

developmentally appropriate
possible
and set as goals, not mandates

Repeal the tests, the threats, the consultants, the politicians setting policy, etc....get out of the way.

Support the efforts with $$$. What do we need?

Small schools. Small classes. Plenty of planning time. Plenty of resources for training. Adequate supplies. Abundant libraries. Parent ed, starting before conception. Pay commensurate with the degrees, classes, tests, and internships required to get the credential. And some respect.

Then get out of the way and let us do it. Don't tell us how. Get out of the way.

[Maestro]

93. LWolf

[Muddleoftheroad]

94. Another classic teacher response

"Get out of the way and let us do it."

Your solution, massive money and then we just bow down before the educational establishment and let them have their way with our kids.

Not likely. Frankly, most Americans don't trust the very same educational establishment as far as they can throw its bloated bureaucracy.

[ulysses]

99. then why have education at all?

Another classic teacher response

"Get out of the way and let us do it."

In what other area do you insist that you know as much as those employed in the profession? Telephone service? Do you know better than the UPS guy how to deliver a package?

Why don't we all just homeschool or say to hell with the entire enterprise? Are you going to trust what private school teachers say any more than what public school teachers do? Are you going to expect that private school teachers will welcome your insistence on what they teach any more than any other?

[Muddleoftheroad]

114. Many do just homeschool

More and more people are indeed saying to hell with the process.

Frankly, as the customer (that is what we all are here), I have input in a variety of things that inpact my life. Telephone service, UPS delivery, etc.

Only schools seem to expect that we just give them our money and get the hell out of the way.

Actually, yes, I do trust the private schools more because I can find one that is in keeping my own sense of morality and values.

[ulysses]

126. ah-hah!

Actually, yes, I do trust the private schools more because I can find one that is in keeping my own sense of morality and values.


The nub!

Yes, if you expect a public school to cater to your "own sense of morality and values", then you should either homeschool or put your kids in private schools, and leave public schools to the task of secular education.

[Muddleoftheroad]

130. No, I don't expect that of public schools

They are "public" after all.

And if they taught no view on morality, that might make people happy but I think that is impossible.

My concern about public schools is that they are failing the minority communities of this nation and no one here seems to care. The air in the ivory towers must be nice. Down on the street, it's not so nice.

[ulysses]

134. heh

The air in the ivory towers must be nice.

You'd be the one I'd ask.

[Muddleoftheroad]

139. We had no ivory where I lived

a lot of ebony only and the white folks didn't much care what happened to us.

[LeahMira]

275. So...

a lot of ebony only and the white folks didn't much care what happened to us.

Where were the ebony teachers and administrators?

[LWolf]

170. This is an important concern.

Let's back up and look at the bigger picture, here.

It is not public schools that are failing minority communities of this nation. By "minority communities," I may be making an erroneous assumption here; in my experience, middle-class ethnic minorities aren't having trouble in the school system. The poorer the community, the lower the ed level of the community, the more trouble the kids have finding success in school. And, to our shame as a nation, "minorities" seem to make up the majority of these communities.

It is this nation itself that is failing it's own citizens. Public education is a key piece to providing social and economic justice, but it doesn't operate in a vacuum. The setting makes a difference. Kids who have been nurtured in safe, stimulating, enriching environments create more neural connections birth - age 5, and start school lightyears ahead of kids who have not had those advantages.

Look at what we are facing. "Down on the street," people don't make a living wage. There are numerous factors affecting communities; crime, drugs, unemployment, broken families, and many other factors that public education has no control over. We don't control the circumstances our kids are born into or the environment they are raised in before they get to school. And those things have a bigger effect on academic advancement than anything a school does.

Start with economic and social justice in the community itself. Then public education can be part of that. But we can't do the whole thing, and we are not responsible for results when we don't control all the input. We are just a piece of the puzzle.

[redqueen]

176. Excellent point, LWolf

It is the economic situation moreso than the ethnicity of the district that is the hallmark of failing schools.

Start with economic and social justice in the community itself.

Amen and Hallelujah!

[IrateCitizen]

179. Amens and hallelujahs from the pews on this statement, LWolf

You are exactly right. People act as if public education exists in a vacuum, without realizing that the lack of investment in future generations through our valuing wealth creation and militarism ahead of people in our society is a prime contributor to the poorer performance of students in poorer communities.

Brown v. Board of Ed may have solved the issue of RACIAL segregation in our schools -- but CLASS segregation is a much greater problem, one that we thus far have only succeeded in making more deeply ingrained.

[LWolf]

242. Yes!

I see this operating so clearly every single day in my own school and classroom, I can't believe that "America" has been blind to it for so long.

It's well past time to quit creating increasingly large generations of have-nots who will labor for little and expect less.

[redqueen]

288. Is Milliken v. Bradley partially to blame for this?

I've been listening to NPR's series on Busing, and today's segment mentioned this case. I missed some of the story, but it seems that the plan to integrate Detroit's schools fell apart


The Legacy of School Busing

April 29, 2004 -- Fifty years ago, school desegregation became the law of the land in the wake of the Supreme Court's decision in Brown v. Board of Education. But a decade after that ruling, few students attended integrated schools. As part of an ongoing examination this year of the legacy of the Brown decision, a three-part Morning Edition series looks at the results of school busing orders aimed at making desegregation a reality.

Stories in the Series:

Part 1: Charlotte, N.C., a Qualified Success

Wednesday, April 28, 2004: In 1969, a federal judge ordered the Charlotte-Mecklenburg school district to use busing to speed integration -- a process that did not end until 2001. Now some residents wonder whether the tumultuous process was worth it: Test scores for black students continue to rise -- but school segregation has shot up dramatically. NPR's Phillip Davis reports.

Part 2: Detroit's Racial Divide

Thursday, April 29, 2004: Twenty years after Brown, the Supreme Court issued another landmark decision in a Detroit-based case -- Milliken v. Bradley. The 5-4 Milliken ruling put the brakes on busing and made desegregating schools in Detroit and other urban areas nearly impossible. NPR's Cheryl Corley reports.

Part 3: Boston's White Flight

Friday, April 30, 2004: Thirty years ago, court-ordered busing led to violence on the streets of Boston. Now the city is debating another busing plan. This one would end or alter three decades of moving kids around the city to ensure diversity and allow more students to attend schools in their own neighborhoods. A lack of choice has led many white parents to abandon public schools altogether in favor of private education. NPR's Anthony Brooks reports.


A Brief History of Civil Rights in the United States of America

Many observers believed that, for school busing to be effective as an instrument of school integration, black students should be bused out of the central cities into schools in the outlying suburbs. Only in this way, it was argued, could busing be instituted without having the effect of driving the remaining white families out of the city. The Supreme Court did not agree with this proposed solution, however, ruling five-to-four in Milliken v. Bradley that the suburbs had not caused the de facto segregation in the central cities and thus were not required to help provide a solution to the problem.

The Milliken decision represented a turning-point for the Supreme Court where racial matters were concerned. Richard M. Nixon, a Republican, had been elected president of the United States in 1968, succeeding Democrat Lyndon B. Johnson. Nixon did not share Johnson's enthusiasm for rapid advancement in the civil rights arena, and his Supreme Court appointments had reflected this less-involved attitude. All four Nixon appointees voted with the majority in the Milliken v. Bradley decision. The central cities were to cope alone with the problem of de facto segregation of public schools. The suburbs had been granted judicial permission to remain "lily white."

After the Milliken decision, school administrators in central cities searched for imaginative new ways to provide some measure of racial integration in their school systems. One idea was creating "magnet schools" with specialized curricula, such as advanced science or music classes, that students from the suburbs would want to attend. Improved school buildings often were combined with enriched academic programs to make magnet schools extra attractive to suburban students and their parents.

[callous taoboy]

167. YES! Ulysses!

Keep the heat on Muddle.

[library_max]

163. Wait - so your telephone company lets you dictate their policies.

UPS lets you tell them how to run their business. The "variety of things" that impact your life all do what you want, when you want, because you want. Only the public - hee, hee, sorry, let me try to keep a straight face here - only the public schools refuse to let you have any input whatsoever as a parent and a "customer."

Now, see, where I live, a parent can walk into a public school, ask to talk to a teacher, discuss lessons and homework and classroom policies, talk to an administrator, look at their childrens' records, etc. UPS and the phone company aren't nearly as cooperative. No, the school won't let individual parents (or even parents collectively) dictate to them. Neither will any of those other "things that impact" us let customers dictate to them.

[Maestro]

101. This is what pisses me off to no end

Muddles,

If you are sick, you seek a doctor not a plumber.

If you need some electrical work done at your house, you seek an electrician, not a florist.

However, when it comes to education, the last people in the world that are allowed any input are educators. Who for Christ's sake studied how to teach, the CEO of X Corporation who is a self-imposed education watchdog who thinks he knows how to teach children or teachers?

Once again, no respect for teachers at all. You don't like LWolf's tone? It's because we are sick of not being respected.

Next time you need your car fixed, make sure you see your local dentist, okay!

[ulysses]

103. exactly so.

In what other profession are the professionals so questioned?

[Maestro]

106. I can think of none other.

People do not see teaching as a profession. People think that anybody can teach. You just open up a book and tell the kids to learn. What a joke!

Everyone needs to read Alfie Kohn. There is a great cartoon at that website.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

307. I teach in an informal way (reinforcement classes)

But only for high school level up -- where people cooperate and more or less wish to learn. I don't think I could handle 30 8yos who are physically unable to understand why they are being kept from playing. I deeply respect people who master THAT arcane art.

[Muddleoftheroad]

116. In what other profession do we all have a background?

Almost everyone in the U.S. has some schooling. Most of us have 12 or more years of it. You learn what works and what doesn't.

[ulysses]

120. a high school education

qualifies you as an educator? I'd like to see you make the case that 12 years as a consumer makes you a top-notch salesperson.

[Muddleoftheroad]

122. It certainly gives you a perspective

and I think folks here at DU have more than 12 years -- much more in many cases.

The reality is that parents and kids are the customers here and we are treated like our opinions and our needs don't matter. Gee, is it any wonder so many are shopping elsewhere?

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maestro]

124. What?

You are saying because you were a student, you can be a teacher?
I was just in the hospital for cancer treatment, can I inform oncologists on the best way to treat cancer? And in fact, I have been suffering with various stomach ailments for twenty years or more, does that make me qualified to be a gastroenterologist? I fail to see your logic. Sorry.

[Muddleoftheroad]

127. LOL, sorry but teaching is not a science

Medicine is. And even then, a smart patient is informed about his or her choices by doing personal research and not just relying on one doctor.

[Maestro]

133. What is teaching then?

Do you mean to tell me that teaching a child to read does not involve knowing how the brain learns? Do you mean to tell me that teachers do not need to be aware of multiple intelligences and trying to vary teaching strategies to meet the needs of different learners based on scientific research? Muddleoftheroad, your ignorance on this subject or your bias against teachers is blinding you to some very obvious concepts.

[Muddleoftheroad]

137. Teaching is a profession

Much like managing people or sales. All three involve working with people and getting them motivated and getting them to take action.

Yes, I do not worship at the altar of teaching. I have seen good teachers with no degrees and bad ones with mega degrees. I have also seen the opposite. There seems to be no correlation at all between good teaching and academic degrees in my experience.

Good teachers care. Bad teachers do not.

[IrateCitizen]

229. What a load!!!

I'll dispel your notions with citing your very first sentence:

Teaching is a profession much like managing people or sales. All three involve working with people and getting them motivated and getting them to take action.

And if you're in management or sales, what happens to those personnel you cannot motivate? Do you keep them around?

Of course not. You fire them. Unfortunately, teachers are not able to do this. They have to educate every single kid that comes through the door, regardless of how much they are "motivated" to learn.

Some teachers are certainly better than others at doing this, as I have observed first-hand in my education process. But to equate teaching with simple management is just plain laughable, it's so patently absurd.

[Muddleoftheroad]

253. Fire them

Or in this case, fail them.

Kids who can't hack it would get held back. If that didn't work, they would be put in programs geared to them, but they would NOT be mainstreamed.

[IrateCitizen]

263. What I hear you actually saying is, "Give up on them."

Hell, why don't we just skip all the trouble, and throw them in prison starting in the first or second grade? That way, we could just skip all the disruption that they're causing, and remove any false pretense that at-risk kids are actually valued as people by our society.

[Muddleoftheroad]

265. No, just give up on mainstreaming them

It is not as if we were educating everyone despite this problem We aren't. So we need to focus on the education for most of the kids and remove distractions -- crime, drugs, troublesome students, etc.

The troublesome students might respond better in a more structured environment. If they do, great. But the other students will definitely respond better without them.

[ContinentalOp]

141. Sorry Muddle, try again

The statement that teaching is not a science doesn't make your argument any more logical. How about this: The fact that I've been eating at restaurants my whole life should give me some special insight into how to run a restaurant? If I don't like a certain dish then the management and employees should listen to my ideas about when and where to order produce and in what quantity?

The point is you presume to know a lot about a field in which you haven't exhibited any real experience or understanding.

[Muddleoftheroad]

143. And here we disagree

If you eat out at restaurants say five nights a week for about 16 or more years and eat at a variety of places and locations, you do indeed learn what works and what doesn't.

[callous taoboy]

169. Muddles:

You are getting quite a work out today.

[LWolf]

246. Science or profession,

if you want to be able to successfully teach people whose brains are wired differently than your own, you will know something about brain research and brain development. That's a science. Otherwise, you can do fine doing things "the way you learned," and the way you understand, but will be lost when you meet the student who doesn't learn that way.

You'll also need to know plenty about all of the theories and methods out there, so you can diagnose individual need and choose the "tool" needed to address that need; much like a physician. Not everyone learns the same way, at the same rate; just like not everyone responds to the same treatment or medication the same way.

Just like a physician, you will need to constantly update your practice with new information, training, etc.

And, as you pointed out, not every teacher and student are an optimum "match." That is true whether you are talking about public ed, private ed, or home schooling.

[Maestro]

135. You don't have a background in teaching! Big difference.

[rman]

154. how about policing:

almost everyone has been policed one way or another, or at least one has the opportunity to observe policing. you learn what works and what doesn't.

Are you seriously saying that attending school as a pupil is equivalent to actual training in pedagogy?
Are you suggesting we can do just as well without trained teachers, that we've been wasting money on this for centuries?
And do you think anyone will agree with you on this?

Muddle, this time you've really gone one step to far. Just for putting forth this kind of argument you have lost all credibility with me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

155. Not every day for 12, 16 or more years

And yes, those who have been policed have at least formed attitudes about how police should behave and there is nothing wrong with that.

No, I am NOT saying, "attending school as a pupil is equivalent to actual training in pedagogy." However, it is equivalent to the customer relationship. And, if you recall the adage, the customer is always right.

Actually, not only do I think folks agree with me. I think MOST Americans agree on this.

Maybe if you had seen the inner city schools crumble around you and yours for decades and all the while academic elitists proclaiming that they would save them, maybe then you'd develop a different attitude.

[silverpatronus]

285. school is not a business!

at school there are no 'customers'. has the consumerist society taken such a strong hold that it is acceptable to think of getting an education with the same kind of strategy as buying a burger at mcdonalds?

[library_max]

168. So eating makes me a nutritionist.

Watching TV makes me a broadcast engineer. Wearing clothes makes me a designer. Having a checking account makes me an economist. Taking a dump makes me a waste disposal engineer. Man, I've got to redo my resume!

[Muddleoftheroad]

115. Doctor, doctor

If you take your doctor's word for it and fail to seek a second opinion or do reading about your illness, then you are a stupid patient.

The same goes for every other line of endeavor. And in most, we have little experience. In education, every single one of us has a perspective. We have all gone through school. Nearly all of us have 12 or more years. Most on DU 16+. Don't try treating us like we have no understanding of the situation. We've ALL lived it.

[Maestro]

128. Again, I will repeat

since you seem to think that being a student qualifies you to teach. Since I have been a patient for some twenty years with various stomach problems, can I now inform gastroenterologists on the best way to treat people with stomach problems? I hope not. I fail to see your logic. There is much more to teaching children than just opening a book and telling them to learn. You seem to not realize this.

[Muddleoftheroad]

140. There is much less than there is in medicine as well

Good teachers engage the kids, work with them and care. Bad teachers punch the clock, fill in blanks on overheads and drone on in lectures.

[library_max]

159. We have a serious wave of anti-intellectualism in this country.

To say that teachers are at fault because anti-intellectuals don't trust them is like saying blacks are at fault because racists don't trust them. You're blaming the victim.

Neocons don't like public school because it's where kids learn to share, where they learn that science is a matter of fact and religion is a matter of opinion, where they learn that the US has not always been perfect, and where they learn that people of differing ethnicities, religions, and socioeconomic backgrounds are equally deserving of respect.

To stamp out those ideas, they are trying to kill public education any way they can, including vouchers and testing it to death. The tests aren't there to ensure teaching quality but to prevent it, to busy teachers with something other than teaching.

In no other profession are professionals bullied and insulted like teachers. Doctors and lawyers and engineers are regulated, but they don't have bureaucrats and politicians poking into every detail of their work and constantly telling them how to do their job.

[callous taoboy]

162. Library-

I second what you say. My class is taking the math test now. I am wondering what the hell the point is. I believe you may be right that there are forces at work (this test) that are hell-bent on destroying public education.

[Muddleoftheroad]

181. The forces at work

Would have to include public education itself -- administrators, teachers and the NEA. It is not just the blame of politicians and parents.

[library_max]

235. That's like saying the doctor is also at fault

when a patient shows up in the emergency room with multiple gunshot wounds and the doctor is unable to save him. The teachers are doing their best, generally speaking, in environments that are largely working against them. And no, I'm not particularly talking about administrators and I'm certainly not talking about that convenient bogeyman, the NEA. Teachers give so much and get so little (other than abuse) that I'm not interested in bashing the institution that looks out for them.

[Muddleoftheroad]

254. If the doctor treats a dying patient with aspirin and promises

Yes, the doctor is at fault.

The NEA is one of the most powerful lobbying groups in the U.S. and the most powerful in regards to education. That said, look at urban education.

See what I mean? Not recent chaos. Not a little bit. Widespread failure of urban school districts -- for DECADES!

[LWolf]

Sure is.

It would be a classic response because I'm a teacher!

I don't think you comprehended the point, muddleoftheroad. Let me clarify this for you.

The "get out of the way and let us do it" is directed at:

1. Politicians
2. The educational bureacracy they establish

Not parents. Families are the stakeholders here. The most positive outcomes occur when teacher, family, and student work as partners to meet the individual needs of the student. And yes, this can happen, and has happened, in public ed. I've done it.

Massive money needs to be directed towards the things that really support this partnership.

Small schools. That means more school buildings. In a small school, all the kids and adults know each other. It is a more family oriented atmosphere, and it's easier to keep kids from slipping through the cracks; every student is a known individual, not a name on a roster or a number in a computer system.

Small classes. Research supports it. So does common sense. You can treat kids like people, or you can cram them into rooms and desks like sardines. The bigger the class size, the more instructional time is wasted on "management." The smaller the class size, the more personal space and time each student is given, the fewer behavior management issues and the more time spent learning.

That's right. Massive money to provide the supplies needed. I provide 90% of everything you see in my room. I provide the pencils, glue, crayons, protractors, books, art supplies, manipulatives, scales, rulers, globes, etc. etc. My school supplies paper. And textbooks. 10 - 15% of my salary is spent on work-related items.

No need to spend more on the bloated bureacracy; let the stakeholders make the decisions; the parents and teachers. Let the administrators facilitate their decisions. It can happen in public ed. I know, because I've worked in a system that did so.

We can pour massive money into weapons, but not schools. If you want quality, be willing to pay for it.

I'm proud of my profession. I'm proud of what I do, day in and day out, to serve the needs of the children in my care.

If "most Americans" need someone to blame for the condition our schools are in, they can look in the mirror.

[Maestro]

80. Word

:) I knew you would get here sooner or later LWolf.

[LWolf]

89. It's a long day in public ed,

especially on west-coast time!

:hi:

[T Bone]

81. Yes, remember the preamble to the constitution?

Where it says to "promote the general welfare". That is, very succinctly, one of the things that public education does.

[Muddleoftheroad]

82. In theory only

In practice, it fails miserably in many places.

[Maestro]

90. So what is your answer?

[Muddleoftheroad]

91. Long term or short term?

Long term, a full-scale overhaul. But given political realities, it won't happen. The nation is too divided on what direction to take.

In the meantime, I support vouchers because I want to save those we can save.

[Maestro]

98. From Susan Ohanian.org

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

142. Of course you want to save those you can save...

Except for the fact that vouchers don't work..."the only reason they continue to be discussed as a viable policy is because of conservative orthodoxy and liberal guilt" (a quote by James Carville, if you're interested)

...and you seem quite willing to let those who you seem to think have no redeemable value sink to the dregs of society.

Wow.

Consider that vouchers won't cover even a THIRD of the costs of private schools. And the fact that the vast majority, about 80% of private schools, are religious schools. I certainly don't want public taxpayer money going to re-inforce some religion's beliefs on my children. I'll let the church do that.

The problem with the public schools isn't the teachers, muddle. It isn't the superintendents. It's not the NEA. It's the school board. The elected school board. (and people who support vouchers)
The wealthiest 10 percent of school districts spend nearly 10 times the 10 poorest. We shouldn't be afraid to invest in our schools. (Our public schools. Private schools are doing fine without those damn vouchers)

[Muddleoftheroad]

144. We have no idea whether vouchers would work

Because we have gone about them in such a half-assed way.

Actually, I am only being a realist. I've listened while the well-intentioned talked about fixing the school system for three decades or so. And yet the urban school districts are worse than ever.

So again, I would rather save some than none.

I do indeed work on the if you build it they will come theory here. You don't need all the trappings of the prep schools to teach. You need teachers and a building. Buildings we have in abundance and teachers can be found if there is a market. Last time I checked, the economy sucked.

As for the fact that many are religious schools, too bad. These are voucher credits because the parents aren't sending their kids to public school and draining resources that way.

Imagine for a second if all of the private school students registered for and showed up at public school this fall. It would be cataclysmic.

OK, for a second, apply your theory about what is wrong to DC. They spend more than all but two states.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

158. Your post has so many head-scratching points, but...

this one takes the cake!

As for the fact that many are religious schools, too bad. These are voucher credits because the parents aren't sending their kids to public school and draining resources that way.

Seriously? First off, vouchers simply violate the separation of church and state. Second, your hypothetical situation is a straw man argument intended to distract from the real issue about public education, so I won't even bother. Third, vouchers do drain the resource of public schools. That's why the conservatives support them: they want the public school system to fail.
And you need a lot more than "teachers and a building" to teach. You need books. Lots of books. And science equipment. And electricity, heating, and gas. You need someone to maintain the building. Last I checked, all that costs money. Taxpayer money. And if you take that limited pool of taxpayer money and start cutting $7,000-sized chunks out of it so someone can use that as a third of their tuition for a private school, that limited pool of taxpayer money is going to get a lot smaller. Thus, the people who can't afford the other two-thirds of the tuition are going to have to send their kids to the schools that are drawing from that much-smaller pool of money.


You're going to have to bring your "facts' about the spending of DC to the table, muddle, before anyone will take it seriously. (I did get my information about the spending of well-off public schools from Carville's latest (and well-researched) book. True, he is rather opinionated on the subject, but you should note that he is a wealthy man, product of a private school system, and he supports the public school system passionately. You should check out his section on education.)

By the way, there is a market for teachers. We are in desperate need of teachers in America. The only problem is, Bush's tax cuts have forced many states to severely slash their education budgets. But that's okay to you, right? Let some of the kids starve for education while we save others? Oh well, I guess they're just a "loss" we'll have to write off or ignore, right?

It's going to be difficult. We've got a lot of hard choices ahead, but there's no way we can't educate most of the people in this country, and do it well. It's inexcusable that this, the one of the richest countries on this planet, should have an education system in such dire straits. I'm not being idealistic here, either. We have a public school system that has produced a vast majority of fine people who contribute extensively to this civilization. But it can always be better. That's what being a progressive is all about. Trying to make things better. For everyone. A realistic progressive knows that we can't save everyone, but we still have to try. An idealistic approach to this would be "blow everything up and start over" (I know you don't mean that literally.) But hypothetically, if you did wipe the education slate clean, how would that work? What would you do in the meantime, while there's no education for the public? Would you just write them off as well?

Sometimes, I wonder about some of the posts I see on this progressive board. (Yeah, I'm kinda paraphrasing you.)

[Muddleoftheroad]

160. Vouchers violate nothing

Except your sensibilities. If I send my child elsewhere, I am saving the school system the money that it takes to educate my kid. The vouchers are a PARTIAL rebate for that.

Again, if you don't like paying them, then imagine what would happen if all of those parents you care so little about actually sent their kids to public school for a bit. What would happen?

Yes, there are baseline expenses in any operation. But more children means more expenses -- especially teachers.

As for DC spending, I've brought it up before. Here we go again:

http://www.miedresearchoffice.org/nationalfacts.htm#_U.S._per-pupil_spending_1

It shows DC at No. 3 behind New Jersey and Wisconsin for overall spending, with $11,649 per pupil. Even adjusted for cost of living, it is still ranked No. 13 at $8,745 per pupil.

At the end you say some things I agree with and others I don't. You focus on the past glories of the education system. That system has failed minorities in the U.S. Not a little. Almost entirely.

Too many people on this board and in this thread look at things through the white picket fence of suburbia and don't see the realities of inner city life.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

171. Wha?

If I send my child elsewhere, I am saving the school system the money that it takes to educate my kid. The vouchers are a PARTIAL rebate for that.

Where do you think they're going to get that money, muddle? It's taken from the pool for public education. So how does taking that money and spending it on a private school save the public school system money? And where are you getting this "PARTIAL rebate" idea from?

Again, if you don't like paying them, then imagine what would happen if all of those parents you care so little about actually sent their kids to public school for a bit. What would happen?


Straw man, again. That's not going to happen, and you know it.
We could spend all day saying "what if...?" and it isn't going to solve the problem. But let's take the reverse, which is coming to be more and more likely if people who think like you get their way. Let's say that vouchers are authorized nationwide. Let's say that a lot of people pull their students out of public schools, take that taxpayer-funded voucher, and try to get into a private school. There simply isn't enough room in all those private schools, and those that "don't make the cut" will have to go back to the public school system, which is even more underfunded because of all the money that's been taken out of the public school system's funds. And now that class-based disdain you always talk about "...look at things through the white picket fence of suburbia and don't see the realities of inner city life." becomes even more prevalent, because there will be those that can get a decent education, and those that simply can't afford it.

That system has failed minorities in the U.S. Not a little. Almost entirely.

And so we should say "screw em' all."? Because that's what your idea will do.

On Edit: Deleted part of my post that didn't make sense to me. Sorry about that.

[Muddleoftheroad]

175. Not a strawman, it's the fear of educators

I've heard talk of it among private school parents. Even the idea that they might deliberately register to make a point. Even that alone will send shockwaves through the educational establishment. They don't like private school parents, but they want their money.

The vouchers are indeed only a partial rebate of taxes paid. Private school parents pay twice.

No, my idea is NOT to "screw em' all." But my idea is to not wait for another couple decades of dithering while more poor and minority students are let down by the educational system.

[silverpatronus]

286. ???!!!!

Too many people on this board and in this thread look at things through the white picket fence of suburbia and don't see the realities of inner city life.

oh give me a break muddle. you don't have to live it to know it. living in suburbia does not make you ignorant of what happens in the inner city. not to mention that you are assuming something that you do not know to be true. take the log out of your own eye.

[Muddleoftheroad]

295. No, you don't have to live urban, black and poor, but it helps

And it helps to understand the real state of things and not just assume things will get better because we all sit in a circle and sing kumbaya.

[rman]

280. We have no idea whether home schooling on a large scale will work.

Certainly not if it's based on the idea that everyone is qualified to teach simply because everyone has experience with education *as a pupil*.

Not do we know if an entire privatized education system will work. How will quality of education be affected by cutting costs in order to maximize profit (a legal requirement for businesses)? Where would the profits come from? Are they going to sell graduated students to the highest bidder?

We do know public education used to work well in the US, and we know public education works well elsewhere.

If public education in the US is broken, then why not fix it, instead of throwing it out all together?

[ContinentalOp]

104. See post #62

Muddleoftheroad's stated position is to blow up urban public schools. That should give you a little idea about who you're trying to debate with here.

[Muddleoftheroad]

118. Slight exaggeration, lol

To blow them up AND START OVER.

[Lindacooks]

84. Of course there is!

We educate our children with public funds for the general good. An uneducated population cannot govern itself well. That's the whole philosophy behind public education. Public schools need more funding (NO vouchers) and much more support from the government than they are current receiving.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

105. As a public school teacher, there every day, I'd give an emphatic yes

The point is educating kids.

Any other questions?

Good one. :eyes:

[ContinentalOp]

109. 2 anti-public school talking points debunked

I'd like to take a moment to illustrate the idiocy of a couple of arguments private-school advocates always turn to.

The first argument you will hear is always related to a direct comparison between test scores or other "performance" metrics between public and private schools. Those who argue that private schools show better results conveniently miss the fact that private schools are allowed to pick and choose which students they accept and they are not required to have special ed or ESL programs. The private school system also weeds out the uninvolved parents since families who are willing to foot the large bill are more likely to get involved if their kids are flunking out. As a result private schools will always be seen to "perform better" no matter how much money and effort is put into improving the public school system.

The next argument against public schools will always be an attack on public school teachers who are supposedly lazy, ineffective or (as has been alleged in this thread already) alcoholics! The fact of the matter is that public school teachers are required to have teaching credentials while private school teachers are not. Plain and simple. And I believe that private school teachers generally make less money than public school teachers which tends to ruin this argument as well.

These are just a couple of the bigger issues that always bug me in this debate but of course there are many other problems with the private school system that we could get into.

[Maestro]

111. Amen!

If I were allowed to pick whom I wanted in my school, I could have some rockin' good scores. ;-)

[Selwynn]

147. Yes.

[gate of the sun]

149. In answer to your question yes

there is a point to public education. It offers an education of sorts to the masses and that is important. For myself in regards to my children I have and choose to take a different road. I am not some elitist that can afford private and expensive education that I prefer for my children. I have home-schooled and tried various other options Like an one room school house filled with 15 kids of various ages for one of mine. Really that's not the point of your question. I will reiterate there are many good points to public education. I myself for my children would and do choose alternate paths.

[7th_Sephiroth]

151. what i'd do

eliminate 90% of the administration, cut out the fat so the teachers actually get a decent paycheck, i would aslo perform greater psychological checks on teachers (i am a product of the JEB! Bush education system (tm) ) also require better training for teachers, more effective punishment for out of line students, and more teachers/smaller classrooms to help each student develop at a personal rate, more flexible classes to help nurture students gifts instead of punishing them for something they have no aptitude for

[Vladimir]

161. There is no point whatsoever

to private schools, except to perpetuate the class divide and keep the rich on top of the food chain.

[Muddleoftheroad]

172. The point

Is some parents are willing to sacrifice money to ensure their children get the best education possible.

[Vladimir]

174. And some can't afford it

so the wealthy get the better education and the better chances.

[Muddleoftheroad]

183. Has ever been thus

I just want to make sure the poor and minority students get an acceptable level of education. Right now, they don't.

[Vladimir]

187. I want all children to have

equal opportunities, and that means access to an equal standard of education (among other things). Private schools are part of the problem, increasing funding for public education is part of the solution.

[Muddleoftheroad]

202. And I want my date with Tyra Banks

I am more likely to get my wish fulfilled than you are.

As shown by my data from DC, high funding doesn't equate to high result. Look at the funding chart for DC and Utah and let me know where you think you'd get a better education.

Private schools are not part of the problem. They educate and you wish to blame them? You should thank them.

[library_max]

236. Private schools don't do any better than public schools overall

when you factor in the special ed and other unwanted students that public schools have to take and private schools don't. If public schools could pick and choose which kids to accept, their average test scores would look as good as private schools or better.

The big difference is that private schools can legally proselytize for religion and public schools can't. But once taxpayer monies start making a big percentage of private schools' revenues, this would have to change. Otherwise, there is an establishment clause problem. Tax money can't be used to promote one religion or sect over another, even if that tax money would otherwise go to the public schools.

[Muddleoftheroad]

255. No, the big difference remains

That private schools in urban areas have not failed. Public schools have.

You can talk all you want about averages or picking and choosing students, but these are not new realities. Yet still urban schools are failing miserably.

[Vladimir]

260. I am arguing the principle

Muddle, not the specifics of the US system which I know precisely nothing about.

[Muddleoftheroad]

261. Then that is well-meaning, but frivolous

I am arguing the realities of the system. The system has ALWAYS failed African-Americans. The system is no longer good for the poor. I am saying that I am sick of liberal platitudes about the system when the system doesn't work and won't work any time soon.

[redqueen]

191. Vouchers don't guarantee that all students will get that

It very well might be that they will result in more children having a less acceptible education.

Why are you willing to take such a huge leap of faith on something as critical as education? Why not take the time to analyze the situation carefully? AFAIC, the right-wing lies more than it tells the truth, so I'm not jumping on the voucher bandwagon for at least a decade.

[Muddleoftheroad]

203. Urban students have little to risk

If they aren't being properly educated now, what is their risk?

[redqueen]

205. IMO they have the most to risk

Because theirs will be the first public schools *closed* due to lack of funds. Then what will they do, if that voucher check isn't enough to cover tuition at one of the few schools in their areas, and their parents can't cover the difference?

What will they do if the teachers at the private schools that spring up do their jobs poorly? These are not regulated, and if there is little choice, what will the result be, do you think?

[Muddleoftheroad]

209. Again, you assume they are getting a good education now

They aren't. And we are back to my statement that they have little to risk.

As for the voucher check, the problem so far is that there is no coherent voucher plan. If you establish a program, new schools will indeed crop up. And, assuming the credit isn't for $2 or so, the programs will be designed to be covered by the credit.

What will they do if the teachers don't do their jobs? Hell, probably offer them membership in the NEA.

[redqueen]

210. They're getting something

Which is better than nothing, which they very well could face.

You're right that new schools will crop up. Unregulated schools, with unlicensed teachers, who conduct their classes with little if any oversight.

Illuminating crack about teachers in your last comment. Not worth responding to.

[IrateCitizen]

215. redqueen...

Scroll through all of Muddle's posts on this thread. You'll find his disdain for educators, portraying them as the primary source of all our educational woes, to be a common point in many of his posts.

By displaying his hostility so overtly, it only serves to minimize the importance or veracity of anything he has to offer on this matter.

[Muddleoftheroad]

218. Illuminating crack not about teachers, about the NEA

Just to clarify. Teachers can be great. I have no love for the NEA.

[redqueen]

221. Maybe so

But I was asking you what you'd advise to parents who found themselves with worthless vouchers, and a starved local public school or under teachers who did a bad job. Your answer was to make a snide remark about teachers.

If you don't want to have a serious discussion that's fine with me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

256. Serious discussion

Half this thread is by me debating this topic. I freely admit to having no patience for the NEA.

Right now, parents have little recourse if public schools fail. I don't expect perfection in a new plan. I simply seek alternatives to the existing chaos.

[redqueen]

268. Perfection? How about just something with oversight?

Only thing is that what we'll have then created would be like a duplicate of the public school system, only funded privately.

How successfully did the energy industry go from public to private? Do you want our children subjected to the uncertainty of such an adventure undertaken by the educational system? I don't.

[Muddleoftheroad]

269. You mean like the oversight we have now?

Yeah, oversight. Urban education is an oversight.

I want our children educated. Many are not and I am willing to try something new because what we have has failed the poor.

[IrateCitizen]

213. When all else fails, you blame the educators, Muddle

What will they do if the teachers don't do their jobs? Hell, probably offer them membership in the NEA.

This is a recurring theme I've noticed in your posts on education. To be quite honest, it strikes me as placing you (whether you want to be or not) in the group that actually inhibits education by presuming to know more about it than those who are actually doing it.

Just like nobody knows more about how to build a bridge than an engineer who works every day designing them, nobody knows more about education than educators who spend every day educating. The problem is, those educators are continually beaten down by politicians who use schools as a political football to leverage electoral advantage, educational bureaucrats who have no idea what actually goes on in a classroom, and people in the public who think they know all the ins and outs of education just because they happened to visit a classroom on a few occasions.

There are certainly good teachers and bad teachers. Just as there are good doctors and bad doctors, good CEO's and bad CEO's, good engineers and bad engineers, and so on. But your characterization of the educators as being the primary impediment toward a quality education system for all is just simply beyond the pale, and it serves only to diminish the importance or veracity of anything you have to say on this matter.

[Muddleoftheroad]

219. No, a recurring theme for me is to blame the NEA, in part

They are the largest and most powerful of the education lobbyists. They have a right to receive blame.

[IrateCitizen]

228. Your responses to educators on this thread betray that premise

Attempts by educators -- you know, those are the people whose experience in a classroom is actually TEACHING every day, as opposed to "visiting" every once in a while or just having attended school -- to provide input on this subject have been met solely with disdain by you. In fact, I believe one of your responses was along the lines of, "That's a typical thing for a teacher to say."

Hell, just the fact that you seem to think you know so much more about the inside of the educational system that the people who actually work in it every day, as you evidenced by your failure to acknowledge even ONE SINGLE POINT that any of them brought up that didn't jive with your predetermined notions, betrays the premise that you view the NEA, and not teachers as a whole, as an impediment to the education system.

You may say that your disdain is held for the NEA, but many of us on this thread can see it for what it REALLY is, which is a disdain for the teaching profession.

[Muddleoftheroad]

258. I have done my time battling the educational system

One of the big reasons I fled DC in fact. I have seen things up close -- too up close for my tastes.

I don't hold teachers in contempt, nor do I hold them in awe. I find many to be brilliant and compelling. I find just as many to be useless and egotistical. In short, they are like everyone else -- educated, but not necessarily intelligent.

I don't claim to know MORE about what goes on inside the school. I do however claim to know enough. Like it or not, I'm the customer. And the addage DOES apply. We are right. We are sick of failing schools and lame promises to do better.

I have zero trust for the educational establishment and those who support it of either party.

[IrateCitizen]

262. IOW, you are clinging to your preconceived notions...

... and completely refusing to listen to anything that anyone else -- especially those with long-term experience inside the education system -- tells you.

Par for the course, I'd say.

[Muddleoftheroad]

264. I paid for the course

In Baltimore and in DC. I think those who challenge those notions should try living poor and black and urban for a time.

[IrateCitizen]

266. And this is the interesting thing about your outlook, Muddle...

I think those who challenge those notions should try living poor and black and urban for a time.

Here, you're finally acknowledging that public education does NOT exist in a vacuum -- when your other posts on this subject actually say the exact opposite. You are expecting the educational system to work without addressing any of the very real and deep SOCIETAL inequities that exist in these communities.

The two discussions cannot be separated. You cannot expect an educational system to truly work so long as students in poorer districts are receiving less funding AND worse curricula due to mandatory testing requirements than those in more well-off districts. You cannot expect that situation to work when parents are unable to get involved in their kids' education because they have to work two oppressive, low-wage jobs just to pay the rent and keep food on the table. Any expectations of vastly greater success of the educational system under such gross inequities is simply misguided -- unless you are content with seeing a great number of those kids abandoned for the betterment of a lucky few.

My parents taught for several years in Prince George's County, MD back in the 1960's, before they moved back to PA where my mom grew up. There were problems back then, but I never heard them say anything about the situation being hopeless -- even though they had sixth graders bringing knives to school.

My wife taught her first two years in Co-op City in The Bronx. She told me that if she had stayed there any longer, it would have totally burned her out on teaching. My wife is an excellent and dedicated teacher, but she received absolutely ZERO support from the administration or parents, and as just a teacher she couldn't do it all by herself.

Perhaps the difference in experiences between my parents some 35 years ago and my wife less than 5 years ago has something to do with the increase in inequities between the two situations -- a form of class segregation every bit as destructive as "separate but equal" was in the South, but more insiduous. I would also say that any realistic expectations of success within the educational system cannot be truly expected until this new segregation is shattered -- and any attempts otherwise will be little more that the equivalent of putting a band-aid on gangrene.

[Muddleoftheroad]

267. You misread

Either accidentally or deliberately.

Urban areas have many problems -- bad housing, crime, drugs, the drug war, lack of jobs and lack of hope. Nowhere do I see people making claims that things will get better -- except in education. There the academic elites have been promising improvements for decades and things get worse.

Yes, we need to address all those issues. But even without doing so, the educational system can still make life better for the next generation. But to do that it must be realistic and that seems beyond them.

[LWolf]

277. Interesting.

I'm not sure who the academic "elites" are. I don't hear anyone making these claims on school sites. I rarely hear anything like that at all at the district level; when I do, it comes from the superintendent or the elected school board. Most of the promises come from politicians, not from educators.

On the front lines, we can promise you that we'll give you our best in the circumstances we are given to work with. In my case, my kids don't get my real, full, absolute *best*. They get the best I can do given the time, space, number of students, materials, schedule, and requirements I am given to work with. And that's the most I can do or promise. I don't hear any of my colleagues promising more.

[IrateCitizen]

178. The educational debate should be about kids, not parents

Kids don't get to choose their parents. Your argument is validating the idea that those with parents more interested in their education are somehow more entitled to a better education than those whose parents are not.

Try again, Muddle.

[Muddleoftheroad]

184. No, just stating reality

And the reality I am most concerned with is that we save as many possible of the students who everyone seems to forget about -- the poor urban students.

[IrateCitizen]

189. I take from your refusal to address my premise...

... that I was accurate in describing your statement as meaning that those children lucky enough to have parents taking a vested interest in their education are somehow more entitled to a quality education than those children whose parents do not.

Attempts to deflect the conversation to things like "reality" and your oft-stated concern for children in poor, urban environments do not address the premise I raised in my post.

Try again, muddle.

[Muddleoftheroad]

201. Again, it's a fact

Kids with parents more interested in their education GET a better education than those whose parents are not.

Kids with parents who are more involved in their learning get a better education. Kids with parents more able to spend time with them typically get better parenting. There is nothing you can do to offset this.

You might have a point, but it's sure not obvious.

[redqueen]

204. Let me try

I think the point is that we shouldn't punish children because they had the bad luck to have less-than-the-best parents.

By leaving them to their fates with no effort to give all children an equal opportunity to get a quality education, you are punishing them for the sins of their parents, so to speak. It's wrong.

[Muddleoftheroad]

208. But we have been doing it forever

And continue to do it every day.

And there is no quick solution to changing that. Meanwhile, urban school districts languish and poor and minority students suffer.

[redqueen]

212. So because it's always been bad

just give the wealthy a way out, and leave the poor to their means, as always. Your utopian fantasy about new schools appearing and being magically better than public schools is interesting, considering what we've seen privatization do for ... oh, say ... energy providers. :eyes:

[Muddleoftheroad]

223. Magically better?

Well, considering they would be for profit institutions and parents would have other options, yes I do believe they would be better than what the urban areas have now.

And, in my plan, the POOR get a way out. Right now, they have none.

[redqueen]

225. Um, muddle...

Have you checked into existing voucher schools?

You say you *believe* they'd be better. However, based on the success (*ahem*) of the voucher schools here in TX, assuming this will be the case would be foolish in the extreme.

[Muddleoftheroad]

257. The current voucher plan is pathetic

And there is little incentive for private industry because most feel the rug could be pulled out from under them at any time.

[redqueen]

270. This is pitiful excusemaking

Having horrible schools is not a result of how pathetic the plan is. If the plan was better, the schools would be? Please!

These people got lots and lots of money, had just about NO oversight, and *still* managed to do a piss-poor job. So you think if they just felt more secure about collecting those checks, they'd do a better job? BS.

[Muddleoftheroad]

271. Not an excuse

Businesses will go into the education market if there is some security. The more security that they won't lose their vouchers, the more who will enter the market. The larger the voucher system, the more big players who will try.

Imagine a voucher for $2,500 that is nationwide. Suddenly, private groups can start schools up in multiple places and get the benefits of shared curriculum and resources.

That is the way business works.

[JohnLocke]

278. "That is the way business works." NOT education.

[Muddleoftheroad]

281. Education doesn't work in the urban areas

Another approach is called for.

[ulysses]

298. a math problem for you: what percentage of private school tuition

will $2,500 cover in this explosion of new schools?

The more security that they won't lose their vouchers

"They" who? I thought vouchers were supposed to benefit the kids, not business.

[IrateCitizen]

206. Ahh... so now it's not about desire, but about means...

Kids with parents who are more involved in their learning get a better education. Kids with parents more able to spend time with them typically get better parenting. There is nothing you can do to offset this.

So, using your logic, a single mother living in an inner city neighborhood who desperately wants her children to get a better education, but is unable to meet with school officials or spend time doing homework with her children because of the fact she's working two full-time, low-wage jobs just to pay the rent doesn't have the same entitlement to her kids getting a high-quality education as the family in which the father holds a high-paying job and the mother has the luxury of being able to stay home with the kids.

Your solution to this dilemma is clearly stated: There is nothing you can do to offset this.

That's a cop-out. There is PLENTY you can do to offset this. The only problem is that society doesn't elevate the necessary values in order to create the political and societal will to offset this problem. Rather than champion the cause of people, we champion the cause of wealth creation, and increasingly, the cause of militarism. Because we do not invest properly in people, we end up with children born into situations they did not choose but from which they will likely never get out.

Your view of the education is a myopic one, it is one that assumes that the failings of the education system occur in a vacuum. It is also the classic failure (or refusal) to understand exhibited by the same politicians who treat education like a political football.

Your favorite tactic also seems to be to treat educators themselves as one of the primary impediments to providing a quality education. I don't know how many teachers you've known in your life, Muddle, but I can honestly say that the overwhelming majority of them do NOT go into teaching for the money. Hell, I'll be personally forfeiting in the neighborhood of 30%-40% of my yearly salary to become a teacher. Most teachers (again, not all, but most) go into teaching out of a desire to work in a profession that gives something back to society. The real tragedy is that political interference, bureaucratic bumbling and public antipathy harden many of these teachers from their initial idealism. Perhaps if rather than demonizing the inflexibility of educators and instead seeking to empower them and work with them, you might actually be surprised at what many of them are able to achieve.

But all of this requires a committment from society to value children, to provide the developmental tools from the time of their birth onward so that when they arrive in the public schools at age 5, they are not already significantly behind the curve to realizing their true potential. Right now, that committment is severely lacking.

[redqueen]

173. Yes!

n/t

[silverpatronus]

287. redqueen?

m? is that you?

[IrateCitizen]

177. After reading through this thread, I have several thoughts

First, the availability of equal opportunity through education is vital to maintaining our democracy. Such an education involves not only the teaching of facts and processes, but the teaching of how to question and think critically. One thing I have learned through my ongoing education is that facts are not nearly as important as the ability to ask the right QUESTIONS.

Second, we could debate for hours as to what the most efficient purveyor of equal education would be. Personally, I come down fully on the side of public education. I should state up front that both of my parents were public school teachers, my wife is one, and I am currently back in school to become one, switching from civil engineering to HS physics and mathematics. But I don't think that this is the reason why I advocate public schools. I advocate public schools simply because it is really the only way of providing equal opportunity to our kids.

However, the current system is geared heavily toward inequality. The area in which I live, Westchester County, NY, is one of the most affluent areas in the country. The right school district is a BIG deal here. The disparities between the "right" and "wrong" districts are tremendous. One big reason is per-pupil funding. Due to the fact that school funding is tied to local tax bases, there cannot help but be an inequity in funding. Currently, students in wealthy NY suburbs receive approximately twice the per-pupil funding as those in NYC and the poorer districts. State funding may be pretty much equal (we even had a lawsuit in NY to eliminate inequities in state funding, but that's another matter entirely), but that doesn't tell us all about per-pupil funding.

Furthermore, the Brown vs. Board of Ed decision by the SCOTUS 50 years ago was instrumental in desegregating schools. But today, we have a more insiduous, less overt form of discrimination taking place. As wealthier people have fled to the suburbs -- commonly described as "white flight" -- districts in poorer regions have been forced to deal with less and less resources overall. There is even a vast difference in curricula, with those richer districts free to ignore many of the testing mandates due to their ability to refuse the funds, as opposed to the poorer district which need those funds. The end result is often that poorer districts have to devote more time and resources to "teaching the test" as opposed to the more wealthy districts, which can actually spend more time and resources teaching critical thinking skills that kids need for a brighter future.

My parents saved an op-ed from the newspaper when they were either in FL or NC over the last year, which I think described the problem surrounding education to a tee. The knee-jerk reaction is to blame the teachers, but that isn't exactly correct. Certainly, there are good and bad teachers as is the case with every profession. But the main problem with education today is that it is a political football -- and in the end, the people determining policy WRT education are quite often politicians who know very little about education. Furthermore, WRT parents, many parents are either not sufficiently involved or fall into the trap of thinking they know more about education than they really do.

Additionally, teachers are often expected to be the prime shapers of kids' lives while being degraded as being "overpaid" and the problem with the educational system at the same time. Recently, at my wife's middle school (in a rather affluent suburb on NYC), some parents were calling the health teacher to talk about "rainbow parties" in her health class. Apparently, the new big thing for the 13-year old girls during bah mitvahs was to put on different colored lipstick and then "service" the boys, leaving them with "rainbows" on their organs. My wife's question was, "Why in the hell aren't the PARENTS talking to their kids about this? Why is it the teachers' responsibility?" You know what -- she's right.

Lastly, I have seen people talking about parents in lower-income districts getting more involved in their kids' schooling. That's easy for us to say behind a keyboard, but it's damned near impossible given the realities of the low-wage marketplace in which many of these parents exist. They simply CANNOT take time from work to go to their kids' schools. They simply CANNOT do homework with their kids every night when they have to work that second job just to pay the rent. To be quite honest, what we are dealing with here is an issue that lies outside of just the educational system, and is a much broader societal concern.

Frankly, I find the whole thing to be quite frustrating. I find it to be a sad commentary on our society as a whole the way in which we value wealth creation and militarism over our future generations. I mean, why don't we have fully-funded preschool for ALL kids -- especially those in at-risk areas? Why don't we have policies like those in Sweden where all women get a full year PAID for maternity leave, considering that this is one of the most important times for a child's development? It is simply a question of values, and when you view the educational system in a broader context such as this, it becomes apparent that children are a secondary consideration to our society. And it's a travesty.

[Vladimir]

180. Once again IC, you hit the nail on the proverbial n/t

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

182. Agreed. IC said it much, much better than I've been able to today.

:toast:

[redqueen]

185. Oh *mwah*

Thank you so much for bringing up the wider issue of the values of our society.

IMO Kucinich said it best. When defense systems fail, we dump more money into the process. When children fail, we cut the funding for their schools. Our society is deeply sick.

[IrateCitizen]

195. Wealth creation and militarism vs. people

This is the value struggle that goes on in our society, and right now we clearly value wealth creation and militarism much more than people. Until we are able to significantly change these warped priorities, we'll be fighting this same fight for some time to come.

[redqueen]

198. I agree

I wish I could somehow magically force all the self-described 'Christians' in this country to face up to how poorly they are serving their supposed savior.

As for me, I'm working on a book. I'm hoping that tying this to a love story will make it 'click' for people. And also that someone will read it. ! :)

[opihimoimoi]

186. Its needed for the Society to function but in terms of critical thinking

aka FREE THINKING, our ed system sucks.

The Pubs have ctrated this with influence. They ban certain books. Once banning books takes place... we lose ground.

[IrateCitizen]

192. This can't be blamed on partisan politics, opi

While the RW has made it their publicly unstated goal to destroy public education (for political reasons, mostly), the Democrats have failed on this front too. Both parties have championed a society that values wealth production and militarism over all else. The end result is that we have decided, as a society, to invest in these areas rather than in our most precious resource, our children.

I'm not talking about school funding alone here, either. I'm talking about the broader societal issues that directly affect childhood development and learning environment. It's the age-old problem of the two major parties to play political football with an issue by just tinkering around the edges, rather than addressing the root problems.

[Maestro]

193. @ic

You are absolutely right. Hardly any politician, liberal or right-winger has actually championed the teacher and the profession. Nothing is good enough. It is quite hard being in a profession where you constantly feel attacked and when you try to put the brakes on something, you are labled as having low expectations for kids or some crap like that. Again, a step in the right direction will be for politicians and the public in general to actually respect what we as teachers have to say.

[IrateCitizen]

194. I don't think you're getting what I'm talking about, Maestro...

Even as someone aspiring to become a teacher myself, my main concern is not whether people are "championing" my profession any more than I worry whether people "champion" my current profession as an engineer. What I DO want to see society and politicians champion is investment in future generations.

Much of this goes above and beyond just investing in public schools. It means investing in values that put children first, that cultivate a society in which PEOPLE are valued more than wealth production or militarism.

Some of the worst-paid workers in our society are those whose job it is to take care of us at various stages in our lives -- two examples being child care workers and health care workers. If the positive development of our children was really a prime consideration, then we would look at the profession and system of child care and say, "Our children deserve quality child care. We will ensure that all children receive top-quality child care from adequately paid and trained child care professionals in order to increase their performance and prevent turnover." Instead, many of these people make barely over minimum wage and turnover is well over 100% annually. The same can be said of health care workers.

Did you know that in Sweden, women are guaranteed a full year of maternity leave, with something like 90% pay? Health care is not a concern at this time, because it's provided by the state. Contrast that kind of value judgement on the worth of children to the situation here in the states for a low-income mother. She can't afford to take ANY maternity leave, because she needs the money. She ends up either leaving the child with relatives or placing him/her in a wholly inadequate child care system. She doesn't have health insurance, so she can't afford to take the kid to as many doctor visits as is required. During the child's most formative time, value judgements made by society have decided that this child's development and future potential is just not worth it.

Then, when kids like this enter the public school system and don't perform well, everyone wonders why the education system is failing. It's not the educational system that's failing -- it's society that's failing its CHILDREN!

In an ideal world, we wouldn't have to worry about teachers being "championed" -- because the values of society would just reflect the investment in future generations. Sadly, we live in a country far from this ideal world. Because teachers don't produce wealth, their contributions to society are often diminished by their critics. This is simply indicative of a society that places wealth creation and militarism ahead of investment in people and future generations.

[Maestro]

199. Yes I understand now

Thank you. We do not produce wealth, only thinking human beings therefore we are not respected as a CEO of a major corporation. I understand. It is stupid and short-sighted. I also understand how women are treated. Heck even in the teacher profession in which there is a majority of women who work have only 6 weeks guaranteed to them for maternity leave. You'd think they would get more. Anyhow, I am writing in a hurry. I have to go pick up my class. Perhaps "championed" was the wrong term, but more respect must be given to the profession because we do develop the most precious resource that a society has, children. Unfortunately, as you say, society does not seem to value its children as much as wealth.

[IrateCitizen]

200. It's interesting to look at this from a gender perspective, as well

By a gender perspective, I'm talking about traits that are more commonly associated with either men or women.

Traits commonly associated with men are aggressiveness, competitive instinct, etc. Traits commonly associated with women are those centered around nurturing and compassion. Now, we all surely realize that these are by no means exclusive traits -- there are plenty of women who are ruthlessly aggressive, and pleny of men who are very caring and compassionate. But in the broader context of our society as it has developed, these characterizations hold true.

Our society champions the "male" traits while treating the "female" ones with what could possibly be described as contempt. Professions that champion "male" instincts -- namely, those that create wealth or have attachments to militarism -- are elevated. Those that champion "female" instincts -- such as child care workers, health care workers, etc. -- are largely trivialized.

Which instincts/traits does the teaching profession more closely align with? Could this possibly explain the societal aversion toward recognizing the important function that educators play?

[redqueen]

207. My my my! What an intriguing thought!

I've often puzzled at parents that encourage their daughters to adopt traits more commonly associated with males, who would also for some reason discourage their sons from adopting many traits more commonly associated with females.

This just might explain a lot. :(

[IrateCitizen]

217. Expanding that a step further...

As a man, I know I'm treading on thin ice just by going here, but this is also what I consider to be one of the major failings of the feminist movement. Rather than focus on the equal recognition of "feminine values and traits", and therefore the elevation of caregiving professions (including the raising of children) in the eyes of our society, it instead evolved to focusing on simply opening up the male-dominated workplace to women. The problem with this is that it didn't really solve much, besides encouraging women to be aggressive and ruthless in order to get ahead just as much (or possibly more, to make up for a "gender gap") as men were encouraged to do.

Of course, when it comes to issues like motherhood getting in the way, women are at a natural disadvantage. If, however, the ideals of compassion and nurturing had been championed, things might have turned out a bit different -- and I would argue, much for the better.

[redqueen]

224. So complex

I think the focus on opening up the workplace was a matter of survival. With so many single mothers this had to be a priority.

But the larger battle for equality for all things feminine has yet to be waged in this country. It's hardly even spoken of, is it?

[IrateCitizen]

230. Mmmmm... I'm not so certain...

I think the focus on opening up the workplace was a matter of survival. With so many single mothers this had to be a priority.

The end result seems to be that most women are still stuck in the same kinds of professions that they were before -- child care, health care, retail, services, etc. -- without any gain in wages or benefits. What I believe is that the feminist movement was essentially hijacked at a crucial stage by those women who exhibited the more aggressive tendencies -- and that their primary concern was opening up the marketplace for individual success in lieu of collective success. The end result is that you have women CEO's like HP's Carly Fiorina slashing jobs with the best of them, while the majority of women STILL struggle to make ends meet due to substandard wages.

[redqueen]

234. I can see that

I can understand the focus, but I also see that the end result should have been anticipated, given what the focus was. Very sad. Once again, greed conquers progress.

[opihimoimoi]

249. Aloha IrateCitizen, your thoughts are well noted

I agree both Parties are to blame, that is to say if we wish to point fingers.

However, I look to the Pubs who have made more of a mess. It is they who cater to the Fundies and their Creation thingy. It is they who influence what goes into text books. And it is they who often speak Big ED but fail to adequately fund...ie: Leave no child behind.... its still leaving many a child behind... where is the adequate funding?

But your point is well taken, the Dems could do far more.

I think what could work is a self improving system far superior to what exists today. As Technology grew so must social mores and wants. This area seems to have been left in the dust.

We need more Luaus, Come we go eat, smile, laugh, sing, enjoy.

[Canuckistanian]

190. publick educasion never hurt me

And looke how good i writte!
Homschoolers are joke!

[LeahMira]

196. Sure there's a point...

Public education is able to offer a basic set of skills to all American students, regardless of race, religion, or socioeconomic status.

It started as a way to integrate large numbers of immigrants into this country and to provide opportunity for the children of the poor.

I'm not sure just why you are asking this question. It seems obvious that public education has a "point" and that all people need to be educated in order to be contributing and productive members of a society.

[ulysses]

227. I probably should have given more background.

Public ed. is something I've found to be an instructive - if frustrating - topic of discussion here, and I had a lot of previous discussions in mind when I started the thread.

The question was largely rhetorical. I know there's a point, but not everyone does.

[Claire Beth]

197. absolutely. n/t

[jobendorfer]

211. hell yes there's a point

First, I'd like to thank the many teachers who have contributed
to this thread for their hard and often thankless work in our
schools.

Second, "Is there a point to public education at all?" -- the
answer is yes, for two reasons. An educated, critically thinking
citizenry is essential to a healthy democracy. We should also
consider that a living income these days requires skills (the days
in which we could move west 500 miles, plant crops, and make a
living are long gone). Since private education is beyond the
means of most Americans, high quality public education is a
must-have thing.

Third, an observation. I think there are two diffent
components of debate that are getting confused.

One component of the debate is: what role should public
education play in preparing our children and young adults for
participation in political and economic life?

The other component of debate is: given an answer to the first
question, how can the public education system get better at
achieving its objectives? (At the risk of reiterating what
others have said better, our teaching professionals have a
LOT of good advice for us here.)

We seem to spend a lot more time arguing about the second question
than considering the first. Myself, I'd like to see public
education concentrate on four things:

1. Critical thinking skills
2. History
3. Participation in the arts (because I believe this teaches
something almost entirely lost in our culture: a sense of
proportion and balance)
4. Learning how to learn, on the assumption that learning is
a lifelong process (anybody out there still using 7400 series
logic?)

Okay, that's my $.02.

J.

[Maestro]

231. I for one do teach

critical thought and the idea of knowing how to think. The return to "the basics" and the complete retreat from whole language teaching fostered by Bush is making this quite hard as districts try to comply with NCLB.

Here are some thinking maps that my kids did in English which is their second language.

[playahata1]

240. What grades do you teach?

I did not learn how to do this stuff (also called CLUSTERING) until I entered GRADUATE SCHOOL to study creative writing and African American literature. And it has helped me a lot in my own writing. I encourage my freshman composition students to try this to aid them in their writing. Among other things, I feel that the way writing is taught in the (Florida) public school system is ass-backwards. Most English teachers are not writers, and as such do not understand, are not familiar with the writer's craft. The five-paragraph essay is not enough, will not get you over the hump at the college level. Thinking maps, such as that which you use with your kids, take students beyond the five-paragraph framework, forces them to think about what they are trying to express.

[Maestro]

244. I teach third grade

and I encourage the use of maps when developing writing assignments, analyzing literature, like we were doing above, and even in math. In fact, my district has promoted this at all levels. It was first used by the gifted and talented teachers but good teaching strategies are good strategies so they are now used by all. My district has twenty elementary schools, 6 or 7 Jr. Highs and 4 high schools.

My kids use thinking maps in just about everything and they can do it in two languages! So much for a failed system, uh?

[playahata1]

247. Interesting, even in math. Maybe it would have helped me, because

I sucked big time in math (though I did get as far as pre-calculus).

Anyway, thanks for sharing your experiences and techniques.

[Maestro]

248. In math we use

brace maps to teach the kids the concept of parts and totals as related to addition and subtraction. I wish I knew how to draw one for you to show you.

Thanks for your kind words. I love talking about my class, even though at times I feel like strangling a few of the little ones. :P

[karabekian]

220. yes

but our system is pretty horrible these days. Reform is needed.

[genius]

232. No

Public education is about pacifying the masses into conformity and obedience. The system came from the model the Hindu's used to perpetuate the caste system. Why do you think that so many leaders came from Yale? There is class system and public education is about programming chidlren to support it.

[redqueen]

238. If you have any other information

about that Hindu model and how it was used for our educational system, I'd be darned glad to see it. Sounds very interesting.

[genius]

290. Read John Taylor Gatto's "The Underground History of Education in America"

He was New York State's teacher of the year nummerous years in a row. The book contains extensive information and documentation on the subject.

The children who are leaving the school system the fastest are the most advanced kids. Teachers are actively discouraging them from learning, even in gifted programs and the parents are pulling them out at a rapid rate.

[redqueen]

297. This seems to reinforce the *fact* that public education

is VITALLY important. We shouldn't let only the smart ones out to get a good education. We should ensure ALL children get a good education.

[Maestro]

245. Oh please!

Then why do we teach children to be individual thinkers, creative, and unique? This is where some DUers just take their leftist views too far. "...

acifying the masses into conformity and obedience." Where they hell did you get that? Sure we teach the children that they must live within the rules of society but at the expense of individual thought? No! This is NOT some sort of facist organization. Programming children to support a caste system is a bit of a stretch. So Genius, what do you see as a better substitute for this brainwashing system called public education?

[genius]

291. Sorry. .The smart kids are under attack in the public schools.

The schools and the teachers do their best to stop bring them down. The pressure on smart kids to dumb down and stop learning is incredible and frightening. Sometimes the teachers allow other kids to beat them up. Sometimes, the teachers pull the parents aside and tell them, in the interests of their child, to prevent them from learning outside of school. If kids, don't stop learning, they wind up injured and/or drugged. The reason Bush is in office is because of the conformity-programming from the public schools. There should be a warning to all entering public schools: "Be prepared to lose your ability to learn, by fear or force."

[silverpatronus]

292. maestro...

intelligence has been shunned in the US public education system for decades. the words 'nerd', 'geek', 'dork' etc. would not exist if intelligence was celebrated in your public education system. students would not be bullied for showing intelligence or 'looking' intelligent (i.e. glasses etc) if this shunning of intelligence did not exist.

as for public education not existing to pacify the masses into conformity...what was YOUR high school like? i was not educated in the US system until i started college, but the accounts of high school life i have heard from my american peers reek of the notion that one must 'fit in'. that one must dress a certain way, talk a certain way, 'look' a certain way, behave a certain way, get certain grades, complain about certain subjects if one wants to avoid being made a target of fun or, yes, violence. this 'certain way' changes from area to area, but the idea does not change.

with all due respect, i am extremely glad that i grew up in the west indies...

[Kazak]

250. Yes..

Our education system occupies our young people's time until they are ready to enter into the job market, while hopefully passing along some basic skills. Though I know where you are coming from. It often doesn't do either very well.

[keep_left]

276. Bookmark this website...

http://www.america-tomorrow.com/bracey/EDDRA/

And read his books!

[silverpatronus]

282. there was an excellent harpers article...

back in august or so last year about the roots and original purpose of public education. i found it to be quite edifying really. the essence of the article was that origins of public education were in preserving the status quo; i.e. making sure that everybody stays in their 'place' and nobody gets 'ideas above their station'. there was also a part about how modern public education, particularly in the US is designed to ensure that enough mindless consumers are created to drive the machine of capitalism. could you imagine the chaos that would ensue were enough people to stop and think 'why the hell am i buying a 50 inch flatscreen TV?'.

public education, especially in the US, needs to be completely revamped to put the focus on actually educating.

[Muddleoftheroad]

283. LOL

A 50-inch flat screen TV is one of the few consumer things I COULD understand people buying. If you like sports, it's an extremely cool thing to have. Unfortunately, there's old-fashioned 27-inch TV in my home.

[silverpatronus]

289. boy did you miss the point...

if that's the only comment you can make on my post...

[Muddleoftheroad]

296. Sorry, thought we needed levity

Yes, public education needs to be completely revamped. The problem is that will take decades. What do we do NOW? What do you tell parents who have kids in failing schools NOW?

[silverpatronus]

299. to be forces for change

that blaming and finger-pointing and complaining are getting everybody nowhere fast, and that everybody needs to get off their ass and DO. make noise, make waves. i work in education, i see the system from the inside. and the system will only take decades to change if things are allowed to be dragged out for that long. it's time for a frickin REVOLUTION in public education. and the revolution is not going to start with the politicians and the talking heads and the bigwigs. revolutions never do; these people are not forces for radical change. their hands must always be forced by the masses, the people. unfortunately, public education cannot be boycotted like the montgomery bus company, but if enough people make enough of a stir, change will happen. and that's a historically proven fact.

call me an idealist if you will, but i'm in esteemed company. some of the greatest people in history refused to give up their ideals, refused to accept the status quo. they saw the top of the mountain, hitched up their belts and started climbing.

[Muddleoftheroad]

301. You're in education, yet you admit it will take decades

What do we do NOW for these poor, urban kids and their families? Do we just keep sending them to the same failed schools?

[silverpatronus]

302. no...

i said that the only way change will take decades is if things are ALLOWED to be dragged out that long.

[Muddleoftheroad]

303. And that means decades

We have a nation almost evenly divided on everything. Education is a particularly hot topic. I don't forsee a major "revolution" in education.

[silverpatronus]

304. and attitudes like that...

do nothing but support the status quo. change will never be effected if everybody sits on their ass and goes 'well, we can't make any real difference' and doesn't even try.

[Muddleoftheroad]

305. I fought for incremental changes for years

I lost. Now I support a more monumental change. Until the nation decides to fix the urban school districts, I advocate for vouchers so at least some of our young kids can be saved.

[silverpatronus]

306. vouchers...

are an abandonment of the public school system. plain and simple. how is the nation supposed to fix the urban school districts if they divert the money earmarked for education into the quick fix 'voucher' solution? you're not supporting fixing the public education system, you're advocating dismantling it. i understand where you're coming from, i do. i live in DC 9 months out of the year (i'm a howard student, currently on sabbatical) and i know what a clusterfuck southeast is. it can seem like there's no hope and no way out. but what you're advocating will eventually destroy public education, not save it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

308. Levity is a fine art, mastered by a few...

...like teaching.

[recidivist]

294. Good point. That's why I am a class warrior regarding the schools.

And as a class warrior, I favor full school choice, including vouchers.

Put aside the enormous problems of struggling urban schools for a moment. Consider the situation in "good" neighborhoods or out in the leafy suburbs. Even there, it's not what it should be.

I want public schools that offer every child a chance to excel. By that I don't mean getting constant ego reinforcement and easy A's in a dumbed down curriculum; I mean being exposed to a rigorous academic curriculum that gives kids with superior energy, intelligence, and drive a reasonable chance of competing with the children of the elites, who routinely provide academically rigorous schooling in pricey prep schools.

There are exceptions, but in most places the public schools don't seem terribly interested in challenging students at that level. They tend to settle for mediocrity. Meanwhile, academically oriented parents increasingly vote with their feet.

Perhaps the best -- certainly the most famous -- model of what I would like to see is the New York City public school system in the 1920's and 30's. It wasn't perfect, and there are many things we'd do differently today, but it did create institutions and practices that allowed kids from desperately poor immigrant backgrounds (at that point in time, disproportionately Jewish) to compete academically with the silver-spoon set.

There are very few urban or suburban public school systems that offer that kind of opportunity today. The extremely gifted or exceptionally motivated kids can still do well, but in most places the system doesn't push them to excel.

The public schools can do it if they want, but the powers that be will have to accept that academic rigor is inherently stratifying. All children are precious but some children do better in school than others. A system that embraces academic rigor will have to accept a much higher level of tracking and ability grouping than is common today. If public schools find that politically impossible, the academically serious parents will continue to opt out.

[bleedingheart]

300. Yes it does!

While there is always need for improvement and there are schools that need more attention overall I think our education system is great.

I do think that we should be spending more money on education and I think that parents should be more involved. There is a depressed district not far away from where I live and no one wanted to run for school board, that is pathetic and it highlights that the problems are sometimes within the community.

Libraries, good schools and parks are a sign of a prospering community and it shows that they have their priorities straight.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

309. Absofrigginlutely necessary

I'll go further and say much of the woes of Brazil are due to the gross underfunding of public education. Considering what teachers earn and how much of the budget goes to schools, we perform miracles here.