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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:37 PM
Original message
When is murder not murder?
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 04:38 PM by HypnoToad
http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2004/04/16/1


One of the defense attorneys in the Gwen Araujo murder trial argued Thursday that the transgender teen was killed because she deceived one of the defendants by luring him into having homosexual sex.

"His (Magidson's) reaction was one of anger and rage and shock and revulsion," Thorman said, as reported by the San Francisco Chronicle.

The remarks were part of the defense's opening arguments in the trial, and they angered Araujo's family, who condemned the defense for blaming the victim.


Does it make a flying bit of difference WHY a person is murdered?

It is murder, darnit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! x( :nuke: There's no flipping fickle flack about why. There is no justification for killing. NOT EVER. People murder out of hate. The murderer could have walked away. But chose to kill instead.

This evil happens all the time and the GLBT community has got to stop TOLERATING it. And that's the truth. Truth, not tolerance. The question is how. How do we fight animals?


(edited: Language but I have every right to be outraged...)
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. If there is justification for a killing then it isn't murder
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 04:44 PM by slackmaster
Does it make a flying bit of difference WHY a person is murdered?

Given that murder is generally defined as the unlawful, unjustified killing of a person, no, it makes no difference at all.

There is no justification for killing. NOT EVER.

Not true, but that's another subject. THIS killing was unjustified.

The murderer could have walked away. But chose to kill instead.

He should have walked away and filed a lawsuit. That's how civilized people work out disputes.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Filed suit?
You must not be a guy. Coercing a guy into homosexual sex is not something many men would gladly broadcast that had been done to them. I think many men would have reacted with violence. The difference is the degree.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. That violence still would have been unjustified
Assault is assault is assault... the only thing you might be able to do in such a hypothetical case is argue that it's a mitigating circumstance, and lower the sentence.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Some would file suit out of spite for for financial gain
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 06:14 PM by slackmaster
If I was the man in that situation I'd be pretty pissed off. I can't say what I'd do about it other than it would not involve violence. It would depend on the situation.

You must not be a guy. Coercing a guy into homosexual sex is not something many men would gladly broadcast that had been done to them.

On edit: I'm inclined to say I would sue a person who deceived me in that manner. Not sure, but I think I'm mature enough not to be bothered by a public admission of that kind of incident.

BTW - I'm not sure I'd consider that to be "homosexual sex". A transgendered person deserves to be identified as the gender of his or her inclination.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Except my inclusion of my comment makes it relevant to the subject.
Apart from the obvious (War, defending our land and lives and maybe even livelihoods as * is doing, execution of very bad people), what makes killing justified?

As for justified killing, don't we need to be sure that those we kill deserve their punishment? I'd hate to make an error and then not regret it for the rest of my life if I found out I made an error (as most who throw the switch would be trained to do, trained not to have emotions over the process)...

Ah yes, America - land of opportunists and insults. Makes a great combination...
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. OK, since you asked
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 06:08 PM by slackmaster
Killing another person is justified to prevent that person from killing unjustly.

As for justified killing, don't we need to be sure that those we kill deserve their punishment?

Killing in self-defense (on edit: or in defense of other innocent people) is not the same as administration of extrajudicial punishment. One is justified, the other is not.

I'd hate to make an error and then not regret it for the rest of my life if I found out I made an error (as most who throw the switch would be trained to do, trained not to have emotions over the process)...

How would you feel about being dead as a result of an error?

Never mind, you'd be dead.
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eaprez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. Degrees
Thats why there are "degrees" of murder charges and differences in sentencing - because the law does differentiate between acts of passion, rage, murder for gain, recklessness, etc.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Degrees
How about: First offense. Second offense. Third offense. Accidental. Intentional.

I see no excuse such as "passion" or "personal gain" that should give it a higher punishment. Only if it was deliberate and depending on how many times society has allowed the bugger to murder.

An unscrupled person might look at the system and take advantage of it. (once again: America, land of opportunist.)

Murder law, unlike bankruptcy law, needs a considerable overhaul.
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eaprez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:57 PM
Original message
In Answer to your original question
...a murder is not a murder when the state is the one doing it.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. "Passion" is not an excuse, it's an explanation
Something being a crime of passion does not excuse it from being against the law. It simply is seen as a less severe crime as a cold-blooded crime - when you commit premedidated murder, you had to reflect on what you were doing, over and over again.
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