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Should the term "bitch" and related phrases be forbidden on DU? (Thread 8)

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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:40 PM
Original message
Should the term "bitch" and related phrases be forbidden on DU? (Thread 8)
I think we need to come to some sort of consensus regarding the appropriateness of the term "bitch" on Democratic Underground. There seems to be a fair amount of disagreement on this issue, but I believe that it is possible to have a relatively civil discussion so that we can hopefully come to greater understanding of everyone's point of view. The question is:

On Democratic Underground, should we forbid the use of the term "bitch" to refer to women, and should we forbid related terms like "bitch slap?"

Please be aware that we are not going to forbid the use of the term "bitch" as a synonym for "complain bitterly," nor will we forbid the term "bitch" to mean "female dog." Those issues are not up for discussion. Also, to be clear... personal attacks against other members of Democratic Underground are not permitted, so it is already against the rules to call another member of DU a bitch.

To be more precise, the specific issues for discussion here are whether people should be permitted to use the term "bitch" when referring to high-profile political opponents, and whether members should be permitted to use the term "bitch slap" in almost any context.

I know that this is a highly-charged issue for many people, which is related to deeply-held progressive values including opposition to sexism, and support for free and open expression. However, we believe that it is possible to have this discussion without resorting to personal attacks and incivility, and we hope everyone will make an effort to participate in the spirit of mutual respect.

This is thread #8 on this subject. Here are links to Thread #1, Thread #2, Thread #3, Thread #4, Thread #5, Thread #6, and Thread #7.
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. omg
another bitch thread!
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ahh!! It will never end!! Save us!! (nt).
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. No nt
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LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. OK, I'll bitch
Edited on Tue Apr-06-04 11:13 PM by RatTerrier
Simple thing to remember

THINK before you hit the "Post Message" button.

Will it offend?

Think about it.

Other than that, there are probably worse words to ban here, but I don't think they should be.
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Well said!
:hi:
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Qanisqineq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
6. no
because I like to brag about the fact that I am a bitch. I'd have nothing to brag about if we banned the word
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neverborn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. 8 threads later... my vote is still yes ;D
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
8. I can't believe it! This is going to keep going forever!
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. La puttana Madonna, will this bitch-fest NEVER END?
(n/t)
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. I'm going to bed
I hope to find thread #20 when I wake up tomorrow!
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
53. Is this Bitch discussion going to break records
for the longest continued thread. Wow I'm surprised how many posts we've already got. But it is a very different topic.

I have some feminist friends and this has never come up. I think they even read a mag. called "Bitch". Do those against the usage of the word agree with the magazine or would you never speak it under any circumstance.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
154. *Snarf*
:crazy:
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TOhioLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
10. My reasoning...
replying to VelmaD:

My reasoning

We have enough protections on this board (ignore thread and poster) that banning 'bitch' should not be necessary. I also agree with the posters that say a little skin thickening is in order.

Yes 'bitch' is a sexist word. But banning it...to do that would be like shredding what's left of our rights.

Trekkerlass
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Yet again I am not in favor of a ban...
and did not ask for one. What I want is for the word to be treated the same as racial and ethnic slurs. You said it yourself...it's a sexist word. DU already has a rule against racist and sexist language. What I want is for that rule to be enforced and not to have to have this fight every single time someone uses the word on the board.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. I do think
also replying to ..
VelmaD (1000+ posts) Tue Apr-06-04 10:08 PM Response to Reply #70

80. I'm going to keep on repeating this...
until it sinks in...sexism is an important issue to women. We have historically been told over and over and over again to wait our turn because there's always something more important.

Well guess what...some of us are tired of waiting our turn because we know the truth...there will always be something you all consider more important that us and our concerns. You do not get to define what's important for me.


I do think survival of the planet and some semblance of civilization as we now know it is more important than changing sexist attitudes (right this minute). I'm a woman. I admit it. Most people assume "Dr." refers to a "male". Never mind that in very recent history Dr. Howard Dean was broadcast saying that his wife, Dr. Judith Dean was a better doctor than he. I believe him because in my experience, women medical doctors I've seen had skills that surpassed those of the male doctors I've visited.

That's "sexism". (both) It's fairly common on message boards not to be entirely certain of the gender of the people who participate.

What I don't get is why anyone would demand that their subgroup of humanity deserves some kind of special consideration on the eve of global destruction. Oh yeah. Those would be the neo-cons.

Don't listen to me. Listen to all the other well-reasoned voices on these threads. Please.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. I didn't make the Doctor connection at all...
assumed it was your initials or something.

I stand by my point. Women have historically been told to wait our turn. There is always something more important. The history of the progressive movements in this country is full of examples of women giving to the cause and not getting any help when it came time to work for women's rights.

Yes the world is in a state of whole-sale higgledy-piggledy. And yes most of my focus goes toward fixing that. But that doesn't mean that I have to be willing to put my concerns as a feninist aside.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #27
315. nothing that is said on DU will stop any of the tragedies
we just don't have the power. we do have the power to decide how sexism will be handled here in this little, supposedly progressive corner of the world.

isn't it enough to pass by the discussion if it doesn't interest you? must you also dismiss the feelings and concerns expressed as well?
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skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. Ok, again "bitch slap" is somewhat offensive...imo
...but i don't want to force my views on anyone.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. Thank god for the new thread. It's a bitch getting through 200 posts.
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. ...
oh brother. :)
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. here
There are many male members here in DU who defends their use of sexist terms like, "bitch" "slut" and "whore." What I find shocking is that many of you have failed to see the hurt and sexism you are perpetuating by using sexist terms like these. There are some male members who say that the word "bitch" is not sexist because it can be applied to both genders. That assumption is wrong because the origin of the word "bitch" is a female dog, one who breeds to have puppies. There we have the initial suggestion that breeding is the only good thing a female is for. The term "bitch" became popular in England, and was used by men to insult a woman on her gender, that she was reduced to nothing more than the sum of her parts, breasts and a vagina.

As the word "bitch" evolved, it still was used as an insult to women who were independent, assertive, or spoke back. "To bitch" was meant to convey the image of a nagging, whining woman, thus perpetuating the sexism in the word. Also, when men call another man a "bitch," it is meant as an insult to dominate and emasculate the man by calling him a whiny woman. Therefore, when men use the word "bitch," they are the dominant gender, and it is always meant to put down the woman based on her gender.

The word "bitchslap" meant the act of a man using violence against a woman, thus subduing her. Whenever a man says that a man "bitchslapped" another person, he is celebrating the indirect subordination of the woman by the thought of emasculating a man or subordinating a woman through this phrase. That is why even when men use "bitchslap" casually, they are perpetuating sexism because they are the dominant gender. Those of you who refuse to see this, are doing so on purpose to defend the continued usage of it to put down women based on their gender, not their behavior.

When men ask why women can use the word, "bitch," the answer is simple. Women are coopting the word "bitch" to lessen the damage behind it. This is precisely what African-Americans have done with the word "n*gger." They cooptd that word and made it positive. Hispanic-Americans and other minorities have done the same with racial and homophobic epithets. So when a woman refers to herself as a "bitch," she is saying that she is proud of being independent, assertive, or for speaking back. She has imbued a positive context into this word. When a man complains he can't use the word "bitch" to insult a woman based on her gender, should he also have the right to insult a black person by using the word "n*gger" based on his race? The answer is no. That word is meant to hurt and dehumanize black people, and that is precisely what men are doing by using the word "bitch."

If you don't like a woman, please do not call her "bitch," "slut," or "whore" since they ALL are attacks on her gender, not her behavior. If a woman is mean, call her mean. If she's incompetent like Condileeza Rice, call her incompetent. Why even debase yourself, and the intelligence of this progressive board here by continuing to use gender-specific insults? That is precisely what many of you are doing here.

Before you think of responding to me and defending the use of sexist terms, I want you to go out and look a five year old girl in the face and call her a "bitch" or "whore." If you don't want to do that, think about the message she gets from hearing other people use gender-specific insults. The message she'll get is that it's bad to be a woman, to be independent, assertive, and speak up for herself will mean getting called "bitch." That is the message men send to women of all ages when men continue to use gender-specific insults like "bitch," "whore," or "slut." Be an ADULT, be a REAL Democrat who cares about others, and be all that by not using gender-specific insults. After all, one of the definitions of a "liberal" or "progressive" is the capacity to empathize with others.


Here's my take....the use of the word "bitch" is offensive. So is "bitchslap" but the other context "to bitch" means to complain so I'd be in favor of that one staying. We should get rid of the word bitch because it is sexist when it is used against a woman.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. On seeing this again, we bring you Monty Python.
Man: Morning!
Waitress: Morning!
Man: Well, what've you got?
Waitress: Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam; spam bacon sausage and spam; spam egg spam spam bacon and spam; spam sausage spam spam bacon spam tomato and spam;
Vikings: Spam spam spam spam...
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. LMAO
:-)
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
284. What she said. n/t
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. ROFLMAO!!!... in visual terms...
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Lizz612 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. Good night Slinkerwinker
I'm off to bed. We disagree, but please no hard feelings. Same goes for others who disagree with me. :hi:
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. thanks for posting that
I missed it the first 7 times
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. actually, I posted it three other times before
not seven.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #36
49. You are mistaken
You posted it six times in the "bitch" threads in GD and once in ATA.

The search feature shows that.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
57. I regard references to "male members" as inherently offensive.
:silly:

OK, now that the double entendre is out of the way, I strongly object to the implication that only "male members here in DU" are somehow innately insensitive or are the only ones who use the term "bitch." This sounds sexist to me, quite frankly, and contrary to reality. Women on DU have referred to female neoconservatives as "bitches" too. This is not a term used only by males. The focus on "males on DU" as being somehow less aware, less sensitive, less concerned, or less 'enlightened' about issues of sexism is itself sexist, imho.

It sure would be great if people discussing this issue could refrain from the suggestion that a DUer's gender made them inherently more or less qualified to discuss it.

Man ... talk about motes and logs!! :eyes: :eyes:
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
59. I've read that essay a dozen times.
It keeps getting funnier every time I read it.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
69. I have problems with this on so many levels
I understand that you are not responsible for my "problems". But you've asked DUers for help with one of yours.

There are many things in this situation I do not agree with. But to keep it simple, I'll settle for this statement.
... If you don't like a woman, please do not call her "bitch," "slut," or "whore" since they ALL are attacks on her gender, not her behavior.
...

That's a pretty insulting statement to make to me, and others like me, who have spent a little time pursuing linguistics. Each term fits a fairly narrow understanding related to the behavior it is used to describe. Think about it. "Slut" and "whore" both refer to the sexuality (or at least morals) of the person being described. They are applied to either gender when the behavior defines the label.

Women and other minorities are guaranteed fairness in many areas. Hiring practices, for example. But I promise if a woman (or "other") goes into an interview and acts *bitchy* or *slutty* or *whore-y* (houses of prostitution excluded), her/his legal rights go out the window.

It's the behavior. Don't kid yourself.
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SarahB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:39 PM
Original message
How many times are these terms REALLY used for men though?
Edited on Tue Apr-06-04 11:52 PM by SarahBelle
When someone calls a man a "slut" it's really not an insult, is it? Be honest. When it's a woman, it is. This is not, liguistically and historically, a term generally used to insult men.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
174. I would say it is an insult
There are different "standards" of behavior between the sexes. Men and women experience sex in distinctly different ways. The words are referring to behavior and not gender, as the author of the essay proposes. While a man may think "slutty" is something to aspire to, the action (behavior) required to fulfill that definition remains the same, even if different in degree.

I deal with patriarchal oppression in my own ways. Trying to control other's speech is not one of them.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #69
247. Was it Benveniste who noted that the meaning of a word
is to be found in the sum total of its uses?

Or Volosonov? ("The meaning of a word is determined entirely by its context.")

No matter, you can get the same insight from Wittgenstein ("the meaning of a word is its use in the language") and the same implications.

Briefly, the relation between signified and signifier is, contra Saussure, not arbitrary. What is arbitrary is the relation between the sign and the referrent yada yada yada.

In other words, as vessels of meaning, words leak.

Now, talking about "bitch," "slut" and "whore," they all share a common element of meaning: They all insult. That's what they do, and before you get to any refinements of meaning you have to acknowledge that history and are you going to ratify it, and if not, how are you going to get around it?

I could posit, to counter your point, that calling a man a "slut" is not so much an attempt to refine one aspect of meaning referring to a behaviour pattern, but rather it attempts to wiggle around the weight of meanings sedimented in the word, meanings that have accrued through millions of insults being heaped upon one gender. And I don't believe the word loses its genderedness for that, because the irony which is crucial to the success of the maneuver depends not upon lack of difference within the meaning of the word,--it's very much present-- but rather upon the difference between sex and gender, and whether you, dear listener, will grant me lattitude to play with that, invert it, or bend it momentarily for the sake of a laugh.

Backdoor. Do you really mean to argue that every time a man behaves like a "slut" (we'll pretend to know what that means for the sake of civil discourse), that words are called forth and his conduct is noted and in the whole unfolding of this interlocutory process equality of the sexes and reason prevail? My view is that people like to throw insults, much the way captive primates throw poop. But in the human world, we have historical and social contingencies which adhere to the poops we fling at each other. We could talk about distilling poop down its lexical or even rhetorical essences, find words of astonishing clarity, ah, but that rather bucks against human nature, or, more precisely, the impulse behind the hurling of the insults. Most people, I'd hazard to guess, when offered a choice of poops to fling, will fling the ickiest, stickiest poop at their disposal. Hence Godwin's law. Do you really trust this crowd to discern fine points of meaning and play nice. Like, "Oh no, when I called you a 'slut' what I meant was that your were a dirty lying mean player person. I certainly didn't mean to imply that you were feminine, because that would be sexist." These creatures fling poop, for crying out loud!



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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #247
282. maybe you've had enough
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I know I have. Thanks for the discussion :hi:
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #282
287. consider me validated
:hi:
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SarahB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
79. I've yet to see an effective counter argument to this
To Slinkerwink- :toast: !!!
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:25 PM
Original message
thanks!
:pals:
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
103. Bitch slap is not about hitting women
it is hitting someone as if you were a woman...hence the slap.

I don't call women bitches...I call them dicks...cuz Im funny thats why.
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #103
198. Please see one of my other posts about the definition of
bitch slap.

And saying that a woman hits in an ineffectual way is sexist.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
298. No 5 year old girl is a bitch.
So there would be no reason to call her a bitch.


But there are adult women who are bitches, and adult men who are dicks. I don't feel the necessity to use those terms but I don't think they should be banned. But certainly if one is banned, the other should as well.


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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #298
302. i've heard it used on an eight year old
and listened to more stories than i waqnt to remember, of abusive men using it against their wives and female children. talk to anyone who works in domestic violence and you;ll learn it's a precursor word...one of the word most used just before the violence begins.

odds are, a hundred women got hit today, accompanied by the word.
odds are some of their daughters saw and heard it.

personally, i can't believe a rule should be needed to stop it's use. the passionate requests of the women who find it hurtful, combined with it's history should be enough for anyone with any degree of sensitivity to find an alternative.

i'm really curious about the devote defenders. whatever goes through the heads of people who would rather flip the bird to their sisters than choose another word?
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #298
314. Given the same behavior, a five-year-old is called a "brat." nt
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daveskilt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
15. coming to this party late but -
cheney is bush's bitch = ok
bush is Rove's Bitch = ok
rove is big birds bitch =ok
Ann coulter is a bitch =ok
all women not named Ann "iron balls" coulter = I vote no to bitch for use in this context.

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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
16. 8 threads!
You've got to be kidding me!

We insult people all the time here. If it is not a personal attack directed toward another member of DU then let it stand.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. So if I called Colin Powell...
the nastiest racial epithet you can think of...that would be ok too since he isn't a fellow DUer. That wouldn't be racist or anything? Right?
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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
152. Not equivalent
Clearly you disagree with me but if we ban bitch then we should remove posts that refer to bush as an asshole, or fuck wad, or dip shit. People are described in insulting, demeaning ways all the time on DU.

However, terms that are based upon race are, at least in my mind, fundamentally different than those based upon behavior.

Is bitch gender specific? In this discussion yes. Is that problematic? Yes. Is it offensive enough to warrant censorship? In my mind, no.
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Lisa0825 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
19. Maybe I'm just weird, but......
sometimes it bothers me, and sometimes not.... If someone has a bad attitude, rude, mean, spiteful, devious, etc, then I have no problem thinking of her as a female dog, just as I would think of the man as a bastard or whatever. However, I don't like generalized uses, such as "bitch slap," and actually, I find the term "wife beater shirt" to be WAY more offensive than ANY use of the word bitch.

Bottom line.. I don't think the words should be forbidden... but I hope the posters using them won't OVER-use them.

Conosleeza Rice is a bitch!

:evilgrin:
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
21. What other words are censored on DU
I remember seeing someone use the "n-word"
and would we also censor the words whore, slut, ho, and tramp?

I don't think blocking bitch would be very good. People should definetly speak up if they dislike the word because we can use the discussion (I've never heard someone being offended by the word on DU). But by censoring it starts a slippery slope.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. We do speak up...
over and over again. And we get called every nasty name in the book when we do. That's what has brought us to this point I think.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. exactly-----and check my post of my essay----it was called spam
and made fun of by DUers here who hadn't bothered to read my essay.
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. self-delete
Edited on Tue Apr-06-04 10:56 PM by WillyBrandt
can't be bothered
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:59 PM
Original message
I read it...
I don't agree with it. The reasoning behind it is not sound. An attitude of gender superiority is sexist; use of a gender-specific word is not. You shouldn't assume that the people disagreeing with you didn't bother to read it. Apparently you make the assumption that we must NOT have, since we still disagree with you; you are very much mistaken.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
55. there is gender superiority behind the word "bitch" in using it
to put down a woman based on her gender.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. You're WRONG...
is a woman who calls another a "bitch" insulting her solely because of her gender? I say again, as I have said before, there is NOTHING SEXIST about gender-specific words. They are a part of our language, and quite likely will continue to be so as long as the brute biological fact of gender exists. Would it bother you as much if I called Ann Coulter a shrew? (Shrew - n. A woman with a violent, scolding, or nagging temperament) You seem to have a hard time understanding that gender specificity is NOT sexist, UNLESS there is an attitude of gender DOMINANCE as well (which in this case, there isn't).
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #60
74. Amen!
As a sometimes student of German and French, I'm astounded that people can't grasp the notion that a noun with grammatical gender (i.e. a 'gender-related' term) isn't synonymous with that gender.
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Liberal Christian Donating Member (746 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #55
116. It's about behavior, not gender
"Bitch" is used to put down someone because of her behavior, not because of her gender.

Yes, it is a gender-specific word. So is "woman."
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #116
151. Exactly.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #116
307.  yes, such heinous behavior like being assertive, and strong willed,
or speaking up for herself will earn a woman the bitch tag. what do people call a man who shows those qualities? not a bitch, for sure...

oh yeah...nothing sexist about it. nothing at all.....sheesh

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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 05:21 AM
Response to Original message
313. do you see any difference between a gender specific word and
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 05:38 AM by bearfartinthewoods
a gender specific insult?
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:55 PM
Original message
Very interesting.
I've not stumbled across these exchanges.
I believe that whoever is attacking you for expressing your view should be dealt with.

But it is quite different to hear that "bitch" should be outlawed in DU when it's such a common curse. I'm not sure if outright censorship would be a good thing. But it's interesting that people are offended by the word.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
22. Wow! Someone really hit a DU nerve!
Discussion is great - that is how we all come to an understanding.

This has been very educational for me.

Thanks to everyone.

Could only read one of these long threads, tho - not enough patience to view it all.
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Philosophy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
28. What about Rick James?
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
29. Are you donating .05 cents a post on these?
It might be worth it.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. lol...
Edited on Tue Apr-06-04 10:52 PM by Dookus
Kerry'd be in the lead, financially, if that were the case.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
42. DAMN.. what a missed opportunity for Kerry money
We could have raised billions for the Kerry campaign today on just b---h threads.
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Liberal Christian Donating Member (746 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
31. Flogging the dead horse
Edited on Tue Apr-06-04 10:55 PM by WyoMee
I am a woman.
I am a feminist.
I have been a feminist since before NOW was formed.
I have the inaugural issue of Ms. magazine.
I have watched the cycles of feminism with interest to see what is "in" and what is "out" in feminism. I'm appalled when young women who have reaped all the benefits of feminism blithely accept those benefits and say, "Oh, me? I'm not a feminist." My mother worked hour after hour staring down the all male staff of the Wisconsin Dept. of Industry, Labor, and Human Relations to get them to open up non-traditional careers to women who, now, fail to appreciate the efforts of those who came before them.

I'll be 50 years old in August. I know the difference between using the word "bitch" to describe a woman who is behaving is a certain way and using the word "bitch" as synonym for "human being of the female sex."

I reserve the right to use the word "bitch" to refer to women who act in superior, snotty, cranky, mean-spirited, demanding, impolite and contemptuous ways. That's the only sense in which I use it. Do I mean for it to put those women down? Absolutely. They are acting in ways that deserve it.

I reserve the right to use that word to refer to myself when I am acting in the above manner.

I reserve the right to continue to proudly call myself a feminist even when I don't agree with every single issue someone says is a "feminist issue."
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Lisa0825 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. VERY Well-Said!!!
and YOU GO GIRL!!!

:bounce:
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Liberal Christian Donating Member (746 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. In 1974 I would have been offended by your calling me "girl"
But I got over it.
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Lisa0825 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #44
52. actually, that was sorta why I said it.....
I felt it took somehting that was meant to be diminutive (sp?) and turned it into a rallying cry... and I figured it had some history too!LOL
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Misinformed01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. Thank you
one of the most intelligent comments on this ridiculous "issue"....and it's probably not going to be read by that many DUers.

Stephanie
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #43
61. Wow...that's 3 for ridiculous...
it's way out in front.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. Velma
your running count of put-downs is not a count of put-downs against YOU, but against the position you're espousing.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #71
82. I know...
and it's still amusing to me in a sick sad way. :)
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #82
92. well
you know I love ya... but disagreeing doesn't make me a misogynist. I just think WAY too much effort is put into policing the language, to no avail.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #92
101. Your'e right...disagreeing doesn't...
make you a misogynist. Calling this discussion silly or ridiculous or not important or otherwise demeaning the concerns of the women who are invovled might get me to say your response was typically misogynistic. And then someone would accuse me of calling you a misogynist and we could get in a big fight. I vote we skip that if at all possible. :)

You know I love ya too and this may be one of those subjects for us like football is for me and LynneSin. We just have to agree to disagree and go talk about cats instead. :)
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Madrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #31
48. Amen! I agree wholeheartedly.
I am with you 100% - except where I wasn't born yet! :)

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
66. Ja! Ubetcha! Very well said!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #31
166. Here here my like-minded, sistren..( I made a new word)
:yourock:
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bubblesby2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #31
201. Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes
I do so agree with you. Thank you.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #31
210. Amen n/t
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #31
254. Damn well said. Banning words seems to me to be so Fahrenheit 451
ja, you betcha.

If people are offended by something, we have the alert button. We also the "reply" button, in which one make the case against that person's usage of the word (or whatever offense has been taken).

Banning words?

Please. What are we - free republic?

Get a life people. If you don't like something you see, either alert on it and let the mods handle it or else grow up and join the adult world.

Not to say there aren't bad words, but as a person who believes that free speech is essential to the life of any community, I don't agree with banning words at all. We can ban attitudes and bigotry and hatefulness; but not words.
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
35. I think something needs to be clarified here
At first I voted no because I do not support a ban on words, I believe context matters, and I don't see the point of banning words as a way of changing attitudes.

But then I reread Skinner's post, and he clearly says:
To be more precise, the specific issues for discussion here are whether people should be permitted to use the term "bitch" when referring to high-profile political opponents, and whether members should be permitted to use the term "bitch slap" in almost any context.

So, we are not talking about an outright ban, we are talking about banning a particular use of the word. This eliminates the argument about context because we are very clearly talking about a ban that applies in a very well defined context.

And that context is clearly sexist. When used as an insult, the word can only be used one of two ways. Against a woman to insult her generally, or against a man to insult him by implicitly referring to him as a woman. Saying that a man's a bitch is the same as saying he's a pussy and has no balls. The sexism there is pretty damn obvious, I think.

The bitch-slap is similar, but almost a bit more offensive because violence against women really is a huge problem in this country.

So again:

We are not talking about a complete ban on the word, so arguments about free speech and context don't really apply.

We are talking about banning a very specific, clearly sexist way of using the word, so I'm curious to hear why people should be allowed to use sexist language on the board, especially when racist or homophobic language is clearly not tolerated or, more imporantly, even considered by its members.

The fact that "bitch" when used this way would HAVE to be banned when similar racist or homophobic terms do not require official attention is all by itself evidence of the sexism on this board. Flame away, but don't let it get in the way of some self-reflection.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. I'm glad that you've changed your mind.....
*sigh*
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. I haven't, really
I just realized I was making an argument for something else.

Seriously - I don't support a ban ON THE WORD, but that's not what's being discussed here. Sadly, I'm not sure people actually realize what IS being discussed here. Everyone's acting like it's an outright ban, and it very clearly isn't.

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. no, it isn't----that's why I support the context of the word bitch as an
adjective or verb, but not as a sexist epithet against any high-profile women.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #50
63. and I suppose you'll help police this?
seriously...with over 42K people here...how can the mods or anyone keep track of the use of one word? I think this whole debate is just a little over the top.
This word is used too much in our society, I agree with that, but banning the use of it is not going to change people's thinking....and quite frankly there are a lot more words out there that concern me more deeply that "bitch".

Deleting one word from someones vocabulary doesn't necessarily change the way they think. I'm not so sure its even a start...

Peace
DR
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:11 PM
Original message
how can anyone keep track of the use of one word like n*gger?
it's easy....use the alert button, and boom, the post is deleted! The same goes for the word "bitch" used as a sexist epithet.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
78. I knew you'd find a way to get n-bomb on this thread too
There's predictable... and there's "set-your-watch-by-it" absolutes. Slinkerwink slipping in the n-bomb is one of those "set-your-watch-by-it" absolutes.
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #78
84. point taken
Now would you like to respond to the substance of her post, which was mainly about addressing how the use of the word would be monitored, or is there something else you'd like to discuss?
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #84
95. Casual use of n-bomb is reason enough to post
Edited on Tue Apr-06-04 11:24 PM by mouse7
It's all over that individual's threads needlessly, and I'm really fed up with it.
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #95
106. I don't think it's needless
She's drawing a very legitimate parallel between the way racist slurs are not even considered on this forum while sexist ones are.

If you would like to argue that that's not the case, then please provide evidence that nigger is used as often and as carelessly as bitch.

If you would like to argue that it's not legitimate to compare the two words, I would like to hear why. Someone else already argued that the words are not the same because society accepts bitch but not nigger, but that is precisely the problem, so it's not a valid argument. It's especially weak because there was a time when nigger could be used freely, so clearly social attitudes are not always right.

Why people are so resistant to changing those attitudes when it comes to showing disrespect for women is what I don't get. I'd really like to hear why it is so important that people be allowed to use the word bitch in a sexist, offensive way. (Remember now, we are not talking about an outright ban on the word.)
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #106
124. N-bomb is carelessly used by one person... Slinkerwink
Edited on Tue Apr-06-04 11:36 PM by mouse7
The n-bomb is consider taboo under all circumstances. By all dictionaries. By the book "N-----" (N-bomb). By every reference on the subject.

There is not comparison to a controversy in which every reference work considers the usage of a word to be so offensive that it's taboo, and a word in which there is a social discussion regarding a word where one usage out of seven definitions is consider offensive.

I'm tired of rhetoric. I want the n-bomb out of this discussion with no more excuses defending it's use. N-bombs have been getting dropped on threads by Slinkerwink for weeks in rants. I'm fed up with it.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #124
127. please read post #110 as to why the "n" word is roughly comparable to
"bitch."
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #127
145. It's comparable roughly... NEVER.
Now get the n-bomb of the fucking threads.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #145
150. have you read post #110?
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #150
170. Yes, Elorial said she's white and doesn't know how Blacks can feel
Edited on Tue Apr-06-04 11:51 PM by mouse7
How is Elorial stating that she's white and is completely fucking clueless as to how an African-American might feel about the n-bomb, but she thinks it is a kind of a justification for use of the n-bomb?

Two clueless white women say it's okay to use the n-bomb, and that's justification?

Like hell.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #170
173. MuddleoftheRoad, an African-American, said that he
disagreed with the usage of the word "bitch" and said it was comparable to the "n" word. So yeah, I'd take his word over yours.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #173
180. It not my word, it's EVERY LANGUAGE REFERENCE ON THE NET
Edited on Tue Apr-06-04 11:56 PM by mouse7
You are OUT OF BOUNDS, young lady. Completely out of bounds. There are thousands of language reference works to be found on the net. Not one says the n-bomb is appropriate for any discussions whatsoever.

What part of batting 0 for 1000s of language reference works do you not understand?
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #180
185. **rolls eyes....**
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #185
196. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #196
202. I'm not a bigot.....your calling me that is an attempt to
distract from the sexist use of the word "bitch" against women.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #202
208. Only people who like sound of n-bomb say the n-bomb
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 12:09 AM by mouse7
You've been dumping the n-bomb on threads endlessly for weeks. Enough's enough. We've tried to be patient.

I'm done. You like saying the n-bomb WAY TOO MUCH not to derive deep satisfaction from the sound of it coming from your mouth.
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Rationality Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #196
217. mouse7, that's not right
I totally disagree with slinkerwink on this bitch issue, but she never implied anything racist and I think you're smearing her at this point.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #217
219. Her repeating n****r over and over isn't racist? BULLSHIT!!!
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 12:20 AM by mouse7
Only a racist could say the n-bomb this many times for this many weeks without making themselves physically ill.

Slinkerwink has been cut way too much slack on the n-word. She should have been confronted immediately.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #217
220. That was classy of you
but I have to say I think any woman reading that exchange would fairly wonder just what his motive is when he uses the word bitch.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #220
227. I really don't use the word "bitch"
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 12:27 AM by mouse7
That's the funny thing here. You're not following this, or you'd know what drew me into this was being called a misogynist for calling Condi Rice an "asshole."

My... how sexist of me, huh?

I'm pissed off at others ranting attacks at good liberal DU members.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #227
234. that would clearly be out of line.
asshole is a totally generic term. But the term we are describing here is clearly offensive to many, many women. Just like the other term is offensive to you. This forum bans the term you find offensive and for good reason. There is no good reason not to ban the other one too.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #217
225. thank you----and he is...
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #225
232. White women using n-word repetitively for weeks over and over
It's unjustifiable, and you know it.

The reason I know you know it. Walk out into the food court of a mall and yell the same things you've written on these threads.

You wouldn't dare.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #232
235. I'm not white----I'm hispanic
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #235
240. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #240
245. nope, I'm not----I was equating the n-word with the word "bitch"
because those are words meant to hurt people and to put them down based on race and gender.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #232
236. No I wouldn't
but I also bet you wouldn't yell hey bitch in the mall either.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #236
244. "Claims" of sexism do not justify overt bigotry.
I'm clear on all the points. I don't yell any of it.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #244
248. You just got done saying
that we should know better than to post what we are posting due to the "yell it in the mall test". I am pretty sure you used the b word in this thread so I was using your own test If you don't like a test to be applied to you, then don't apply it to others.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #248
251. the dictionary lists 6 of 7 usages of the word bitch as non-offensive
The n-word has NO usages that are unoffensive.

Usage... "It's a bitching wave, COWBUNGA!" is non-offensive, for example.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #251
256. and no one is saying that would be banned
or didn't you bother to read the first post in this thread or any of mine for that matter. But there is no way you can make the claim that calling people bitches isn't sexist. That, and other than bitch slap, only that, is being considered for banning.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #256
258. My Encarta Dictionary right here says it's not in black English slang
All the definitions are on thread one if you want to check them.

Slang use of the word in the African-American community generally among other African-Americans if it's only used as an identifier of a female, and not refering to temperament, is considered non-offensive.

The senior editors responsible for the Encarta Dictonary final editing decisions are both women. So women are responsible for saying that the word has limited non-offensive use.

Sorry. That's truth.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #258
262. by that standard
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 01:15 AM by dsc
the n word would be non offensive too. I taught in two different all black schools in which young black men often called each other the n word. Encarta may not want to recognize it but I can say for a fact that I heard the n word from black males way, way more than I heard the b word from black females in the non offensive way. Incidently I didn't let either word be used in my room without a detention slip so I am referring to parking lots, halls and that sort of thing.

For the record, not that it matters, but I am male. You have made the implicit assumption that I was female on a couple of occassions.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #251
319. mine lists three out of five as offensive definitions
in fact, all usages of bitch as a noun reference offensive so i win, dictionary boy :eyesroll:

bitch < bich >

noun (plural bitches)

1. {b]taboo term: a highly offensive term for a woman that describes her as spiteful, quarrelsome, and unprincipled ( taboo )


2. complaint: a querulous nagging complaint ( slang ) ( {b]often considered offensive )


3. something difficult: a difficult thing or situation ( slang ) ( {b]often considered offensive )
That locks a real bitch to open.



intransitive verb (past bitched, past participle bitched, present participle bitching, 3rd person present singular bitches)

1. be nasty about somebody: to talk about somebody who is not present in an unpleasant or malicious way ( slang )


2. complain continually: to complain or grumble about something continually




Thesaurus *




http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_561599727/bitch.html
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #244
255. the claims of sexism are true and real, and there is no bigotry here
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #255
257. People ranting n-word for weeks over and over aren't bigots, right?
Riiiiiiiiight.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #257
261. nah but your stalking me and harassing me is out of line
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #261
263. I'm stalking you when you join threads I'm on? Your n-bombs out-of line.
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 01:16 AM by mouse7
How does that work... I'm already on a thread, you join it and start ranting, and I'm stalking you, huh?

Sounds like Slinkerwink logic to me. Same logic you use to justify dropping n-bombs.

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #263
269. *shakes head* not going to argue with you anymore
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #269
273. Because you CAN'T! Use of n-word all over threads is bigotry.
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 01:42 AM by mouse7
You dumped the n-word all over threads over and over for weeks. It's undeniable. It's like arguing about what what you multiply by one to get one as an answer. There is only one conclusion to come to when people are dumpintg n-bomb all over threads for weeks over and over and over again.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #232
304. Not to be too picky...
...but Slink has never, to my knowledge, used the word you object to. She's used euphamisms such as "n-word" instead, and clearly in an illustrative sense only, not as a label applied to anyone.

Or, are you saying that using a euphamism is every bit as bad as the word itself? That claim quickly degenerates into absurdity, as it would follow that the euphamism for that euphmaism would also be offensive, as would any references such as my "the word itself" in the previous sentence. Before long, it would get to the point that merely criticizing someone for use of a racial epithet (which Slink wasn't using, BTW) would also consititue using it, since one would have to find a term to describe the racial slur (including, potentially, the simple term "racial slur"), and that would be merely a euphamism of a euphamism of a euphamism of a... In other words, by following that train of thought, you yourself could be claimed to have used the "n-word" over and over on this thread, and thus should be disciplined for your racism.

:crazy:
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 04:23 AM
Response to Reply #180
305. ooooh...young lady
well, well slink ...you better get back in your place cause you offended the white boy :eyesroll:
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #170
216. funny
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 12:17 AM by Djinn
"How is Elorial stating that she's white and is completely fucking clueless as to how an African-American might feel about the n-bomb"

would that be comparable to you being a bloke and "completely fucking clueless as to how" a woman might feel?

and yes some women here also don't word the word banned (for the record I think in many usages it IS sexist but I don't want it banend, I would prefer it if ALL language could be used, if someone wants to out themselves as a racist/sexist ignoramus it should stay up for the world to see) but I think it's hilarious that you think Eloriel shouldn't have an opinion on the word YOU dislike but that you can on "bitch".

BTW your use of "young lady" isn't helping your case.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #216
224. This is about a word universally declared taboo and offensive
This isn't mouse7 being mad about someone calling him a name, this is about the ENTIRE ACADEMIC COMMUNITY in agreement that white people are universally considered tabooo from using the n-word, and there is no use by whites appropriate in any situation.

That's not me, that's every segment of our society that agrees with me.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #145
303. no, i don't think i will
according to you, it's a valid reflection of black culture, just like the word bitch. i appreciate black culture. if black culture validates the use of the word bitch than it does the same for nigger.
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #124
156. again
I've already explained why arguing on the basis of social attitudes doesn't hold. Nigger wasn't always taboo, people had to fight to change society in order to achieve that. If anything the only thing your argument proves is that women still have a long way to go.

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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #156
176. It's taboo now.
In every single reference one can find.

If we were sucked through a time warp and appeared in 1934, then there might be justification for this discussion?

Do you know of any time warps in the 7 day forecast? I didn't think so.
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #176
189. you're not understanding
It's taboo now because people struggled to make it so. It didn't just magically become taboo one day.

You are essentially arguing that this specific use of bitch shouldn't be taboo because it isn't taboo. It's a logical fallacy.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #189
203. You argue to make word taboo by saying ____ should be taboo
You do not argue a word should be taboo because N----R, N----R, N----R.

The N-bomb adds nothing to the discussion.

The only people who say the n-bomb are the people who like the n-bomb said.

I'm done coddling bigots. Say the n-bomb from here forward, you're a bigot.
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:12 AM
Original message
you're fixating on it
You sem to be fixated on "the n-bomb" without reading for substance or context. Yes, people should argue for X being taboo by explaining why it should be taboo, and in this case the argument involves a comparison between bitch and "the n-bomb." You continue to focus on the n-bomb without addressing the substance of the argument, and the one time you did try to address it you made an invalid argument.

Got another one, or is this claim that you will no longer coddle bigots a pre-emptive excuse for abandoning the discussion?
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
218. Gee, I fuckin wonder why?
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 12:17 AM by mouse7
It's only considered the most offensive word in the English language, and keeps getting repeated over and over by a WHITE PEOPLE time and time again saying the n-bomb doesn't matter.

This is THE MOST BLATANT example of bigotry I have ever seen at DU.

White People saying the n-bomb doesn't matter? My GOD... listen to yourselves!!!
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #218
221. first of all
I'm not white, so don't assume you know who you're talking to.

Second, I thought it was all about context? Haven't people been arguing up and down these threads that it's the context rather than the word that's offensive?

I would hope you could manage a discussion about words and language that actually uses the words being discussed. This is not bigotry, it is a discussion ABOUT bigotry and sexism and how they manifest themselves in language. That's very different. Context, context, context....
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #221
238. Contest for first couple of weeks... after 8th thread with n-bomb today?
Enough is fucking enough.Allowances were made for a LONG time for all kind of discussion of context. The racist content didn't reduce, it got worse.

Today was beyond the pale.

Only bigot talk that way for that long. Only bigots don't understand that people don't want to hear the n-bomb from white women.
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #238
246. heh
And only sexists don't understand what people don't want to hear: bitch from men.

Do you really not see the parallel here? Really?

Again, there was no bigotry in these posts. There was no racist content, either. No one was expressing racist attitudes. If you really can't see that, that's too bad, but I don't think there's anything more I can say to change your mind.


And now, I must go to bed.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #246
253. There is no parallel, there is NO inoffensive usage for n-word. n/t
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 12:58 AM by mouse7
Not even the most radical feminist will claim the usage...

"It's a bitching wave, COWBUNGA!" is offensive.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #218
310. you authorized it's use!!!!!
with your insipid defense of bitch. you claimed it was an attempt by white women to attack black culture because some rappers use the phrase and it's commonly accepted black slang.

so is the word nigger. if use by rappers validates the use of bitch, then it validates the use of nigger.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #176
222. wrong again mouse7
it's used in many many rap and hip hop songs for a start.

Also Slinkerwink (while I disagree with her on MANY things) has not used it in an offensive way, she is staing clearly that people who piss and moan about "PC police" are more than happy to go along with those "police" in relation to some words and not others.

She's REFERENCING the word not peppering her conversations with it...and I think you know that
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #222
250. Not a single academic reference that doesn't declare n-word usage taboo
There is not way for Slinkerwink to use the n-word in a non-bigoted way. None. Yet she was still given slack to work out her issues... until it reached a point todat where Slinkerwink was spamming the n-word on threads.

There's no way someone that's not bigoted can rfeperatthe n-cord that many times over an over again.

And if you're accepting rap music as a reference then all reason for any of this discussion is lost, because of the way "bitch" is used in rap music as a non-offensive slang reference to females.

I have the dictionary definition for that use non-offensive usageof bitch as slang in black english if you want it.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #250
311. stuff your dictionary
you relied on rapp to determine what is acceptable. now you are stuck with it.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #176
309. ya don't have to go back to 34
the phrase nigger-lipped was used quite openly in 68. it became taboo because people, white and black made it so.

women and men can do the same for the gender specific insult expressed by the word bitch.
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Rationality Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
81. "...use the alert button, and boom, the post is deleted!"
Wrong. Hit alert, and a moderator has to be hassled to read the offending post, and (s)he makes that decision.

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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #81
94. sorry
I didn't know that bringing the use of sexist language - which is what we're discussing here, by the way, the very specific use of a word in a very obviously sexist way - to the attention of mods would be considered "a hassle."

I'm sorry if the fight for equality is getting in the way around here.

Really, the attitudes displayed in these threads are so much more fucking offensive to me as a woman than any slur you could throw at me. And the worst part is how many of you just don't. fucking. get it. There's just a complete lack of concern, a contempt, almost, for the efforts of women to eliminate sexist language from the discourse here.

Why? Why must everyone insist on the right to use this word in a sexist way? Why is it so important that your right to insult women be respected?
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #94
100. ***applauds***
:yourock:
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Rationality Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #94
120. No, ant, this PC bullshit is going to bring us all down.
This kind of political correctness is exactly what the Jerry Falwell crusaders have been fighting for! Clean out our language, smother our expression, and ignore the real problems in the world.

I ain't going to stand for it. Not in my neighborhood! Not here! Nowhere!

My life and career is an arm of the First Amendment, and I'm not letting go of it. If you want to trim it, there are plenty of other authoritarian nations that may follow this mode of philosophy. Korea... China... Nigeria... Cuba...
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #120
125. please read post #110 carefully as to why calling this PC bullshit
is GIVING into the Republicans who want to perpetuate racism and sexism.
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Rationality Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #125
159. Glanced through it, and I still hold my ground
So what if the Repubs used the anti-pc rhetoric in the 70s? This is not the 70s. This is 2004. Did you ever pay attention to the Janet Jackson halftime show fiasco? Brest flashes, and you get all the Fox Smear peddlers go over how ghastly and outrageous this was. Now you get the PC right (yes Slinkerwink, PC is now the reactionary way even as they deny it) coming out and knocking Bubba the Love Sponge out of Tampa, and then Howard Stearn off of Clearchannel.

This may very well be private property, but advocating a massive pro-Democratic movement, I would think it's only appropriate to make this board as open to free expression as possible without allowing for deliberate, concentrated abuse.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #159
163. I thought that the reaction to Janet Jackson was silly, but it
clearly was aimed at her gender. Republicans also use the word "bitch" and "cunt" without impunity in Free Republic all the time. Should we do the same here by lowering ourselves to their lack of intelligent discourse?
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Rationality Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #163
172. Do you really think we're going to just use such vocabularly that freely?
It's not like we go thread to thread saying "hey bitch mothaphucka" all the time.

I am not sure if they have such a thing in sociological studies, but something that is banned is usually desired. Human nature often dictates the challenge of authority. Ban "bitch," and you get people who will like to use it more and more. Have you seen some other threads here? Same principle.

Alright this is my last post of the night. I have some studying to do and can't debate this anymore. Later slink.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #172
178. funny, the "n" word is banned here as a racist epithet
and I don't see it being used at all against black people like Colin Powell or Condileeza Rice. With your logic, why aren't people using the "n" word more and more?
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Rationality Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #178
215. Alright... you have that one (n/t)
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #178
259. We know better than to use it. You claim to be justified in doing it
And you're wondering why I think you're biased against African-Americans. You point out people can be banned for the word, and you still keep using it over and over and over.
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #120
168. oh please
Really. Again, we are talking about banning the use of the word in a very specific way, a way that is undeniably sexist. This is not an outright ban on all uses of the word.

I'm not even going to argue that this is the right thing to do. I want to hear YOU argue that this is the wrong thing to do. Specifically, I want to know why people should be allowed to use sexist language on this forum?

Really - what are you defending here? And this isn't a LAW we're talking about, it's a rule on a forum - why is it so important to you that you be free to insult women here? How is that an important element of intellectual discourse on this board? What, exactly, are we losing when we say that people can't use sexist language here, and how does it compare to what we gain?
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Rationality Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #168
223. The right of expression
One of the biggest reasons I am a Democrat instead of an independent or a republican - other than because I wanted to vote for Howard Dean in the primaries - is becasue I always viewed this party as the one allowing for free expression, as opposed to the so-called "moralists" that plague the Republican party. Yes, this is a private server, but as long as it advocates a pro-Democratic political platform, I'll defend your right to say what you want, or someone else's right to be a complete asshole.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #223
228. but they don't
The moderators here ban all kinds of speech. Once they do that then it becomes a discussion based on the merits of the speech.
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #223
231. so what's the trade off?
Again, please keep in mind that we are talking about banning a very specific use of the word, not the word itself.

OK, so we've preserved the right of expression, or, more precisely, the right to use an expression in a sexist way. What have we lost? Do you understand how it might make women feel to hear that the right to use sexist language is more important than their right to be protected as equals? Can you understand why I, as a woman, might not exactly feel that this is a cool place for me?

Freedom of speech, yes, but can you yell fire in a crowded theater? Can you use a racist slur against a co-worker? Can pro-lifers protest INSIDE a clinic? Aren't those all legitimate restrictions on expression?

Society makes compromises all the time; no right is absolute. What this really is is a debate over priorities, and I'm just dismayed that this community, of all communities, would consider the right to use sexist language more important than the struggle against sexism.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #223
312. One of the biggest reasons I am a Democrat
instead of an independent or a republican is that this party led the fight for women's rights.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #120
317. did you make the same argument as nigger and fagot faded
from common conversation? did the abandonment of these epitaphs bring us down? was it fallwell and his ilk that championed the present disdain for those words? does the lack of availability of those words and things like chink and kike, smother your expression?

why is it only too much bother when it comes to an insult against women?
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
37. It's habitual.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. is that the only excuse you have?
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. Lighten up!!
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #47
65. really now
I can understand that it probably wasn't intentional, but you really have no idea what it's like for someone trying to make a point about equality to have her caused ridiculed and marginalized.

I posted this in the other thread for someone else, but given all the mocking that's going on here I think it deserves a repeat:

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2002-05/03wise.c...

Indian students at Northern Colorado University, fed up by the unwillingness of white school district administrators in Greeley to change the name and grotesque Indian caricature of the Eaton High School "Reds," recently set out to flip the script on the common practice of mascot-oriented racism.

Thinking they would show white folks what it's like to "be in their shoes" and experience the objectification of being a team icon, indigenous members of an intramural basketball team renamed themselves the "Fightin' Whities," and donned T-shirts with the team mascot: a 1950's-style caricature of a suburban, middle class white guy, next to the phrase "every thang's gonna be all white."

Funny though the effort was, it has not only failed to make the point intended, but indeed has been met with laughter and even outright support by white folks. Rush Limbaugh actually advertised for the team's T-shirts on his radio program, and whites from coast to coast have been requesting team gear, thinking it funny to be turned into a mascot, as opposed to demeaning.

And of course the difference is that it's tough to negatively objectify a group whose power and position allows them to define, or redefine the meaning of another group's attempts at humor: in this case the attempt by Indian peoples to teach them a lesson. It's tough to school the headmaster, in other words.


Mocking her only reinforces the power structure she's trying to draw attention to in the first place. It reminds her of her second class status, 'cause we all know it's only the concerns and complaints of certain groups - those without power - that can be treated this way.

I realize it's just a joke and that you meant no harm, but please, PLEASE, try to think about what it means to marginalize and laugh away the concerns of those who believe they are being treated unfairly. I've said before that we don't need to ban language because it eliminates the opportunity to talk to people about these issues and hopefully get them to understand where we're coming from. Of course, that argument assumes that people are willing to listen and think about things in the first place. Please don't prove my assumption wrong.
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
51. OK, this is getting stupid.
Skinner, elad, and Earl_G; just make a fucking decision. There's nothing left to say on the issue. Why drag it on? I'll abide by your decision, as will most others. That said, I hope you feel OK about selective censorship, should you decide to start banning words.

Just get it over with, OK?

How many threads are enough to discuss the intricacies of the word "bitch"? Either allow it or don't, but stop provoking people. If you didn't gain enough insight from the first few threads, you never will. Now you're just being silly.

Keeee-rist.


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Rationality Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #51
87. Keep it going Skinner
You're driving up my betting pool!

Going for 10 baby! Going for 10!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #87
293. Yup...let's get all this crap out...let people wear themselves out. nt
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LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
54. Like, totally bitchen', man!
This thread is soooooo bitchen!
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Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
56. Velma, a reply
From: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


First time I've ever been called misogynist -
Thanks for getting it completely wrong. For the record, the following words ALSO have no meaning for me, and aren't the least bit offensive to me:

Asshole, dickhead, prick, cock, and motherfucker.

ALL words designed to demean men. Meant to hurt men. Meant to belittle men. So, you see, I'm in a quandry here. Am I anti-male or anti-female. Neither actually, but the level of obsurdity around here tonight has just peaked. I'm off to bed to read. I'll have to ask Mrs. Catch22Dem if she thinks I'm a misogynist.

On second thought, I've decided I'm highly offended by your remarks. You know, I've never treated Slinkerwink, or any other DU female, with anything but kindness and respect. I disagree with banning the word bitch from DU, but I still have a great deal of respect for her. I HAD a great deal of respect for you as well, but the more I think about it, you just crossed my imaginary line. Now, I made a post about what I think the word bitch means to me, which is nothing, and made some antecdotal reference to how I'd say it to one of my male co-workers. I think it was plainly obvious that it was tongue-in-cheek, and you've just labeled me "ridiculous, sterotypical, and misogynistic." Now, THAT'S what I call offensive.

Thank you trekkerlass for having my back.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. That's how I got dragged into this
Getting called "misogynist" for calling Condi Rice an "asshole" on a thread.

Yeah... we all know how sexist a term "asshole" is, right?
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Triple H Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #62
73. You got called a "misogynist" for that????
You got called that for telling the truth on what she really is????
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #73
260. Yep... matter of fact, without naming names...
...I'll bet you can guess who did it within two guesses.
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TOhioLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #56
67. your welcome....
n/t
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #56
75. While I don't think I specifically called you a misogynist...
I understand that it could be interpretted that way. I was specifically referring to you calling this argument ridiculous. My exact words "the traditional, stereotypical, misogynistic responses to women's concerns are flying fast and furious tonight" Ridiculous is one of those words men have used to belittle women and their concerns for a long time. You aren't the first person to use it tonight and you arne't the only person I've taken to task over it.

I wish I had it in me to be more sorry that you got offended. I try not to offend people on purpose if I can help it. But you took it on yourself to come in and make light of a subject that is serious. Sexism is a real, serious concern for many women and maybe your post was just one too many jokes and I came down harder on you than I normally would have.

I tend to want to stand by what I said though...calling women's concerns about sexism ridiculous is a traditional, stereotypical, misogynistic response that we have to deal with all the time.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #75
138. Have you visited your
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #138
194. Ack! Misandrony!
Oh, the objectification! The horror, the horror!
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #138
294. Velma!
I'm disappointed in you!

Well, no, I'm not really. But, come on, Velma.
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #56
76. reverse sexism and humor (again)
Replace all references to race with sex.

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2002-05/03wise.c...

When a group of people has little or no power over you institutionally, they don't get to define the terms of your existence, they can't limit your opportunities, and you needn't worry much about the use of a slur to describe you and yours, since, in all likelihood, the slur is as far as it's going to go.

(snip)

And of course the difference is that it's tough to negatively objectify a group whose power and position allows them to define, or redefine the meaning of another group's attempts at humor: in this case the attempt by Indian peoples to teach them a lesson. It's tough to school the headmaster, in other words.

Objectification works against the disempowered precisely because they are disempowered. The process simply doesn't work in reverse, or at least, making it work is a lot tougher than one might think.




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yltlatl Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
58. Why don't we just
not infringe on freedom of speech if we're such democrats? Supposedly we're intelligent enough to work out our differences on our own. If you have a problem with somebody, deal with it on a personal basis. There's no need for us to revert to an authoritarian system to deal with a matter of words--even impassioned ones: there are real people dying all the time.
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Broadslidin Donating Member (949 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
64. Amazingly, Pew Research finds 53% of evangelical conservatives still.....
cling to the dictates of Pope Innocent VIII's
1484 "Malleus Maleficarum Bull".



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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
68. I think the notion of having forbidden words,
ANY forbidden words, is brain damaged, a form of non-thought,
like primitives taboos, on the same mental level.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
70. I literally can't believe that we need 8 threads on this
What part of "this board doesn't allow sexist language" doesn't cover using bitch? We wouldn't need 8 threads on the use of the n ward, or fag, or spic, or a host of other awful words. Why do we need so many on bitch?

Unless we are prepared to allow threads like these:

Andrew Sullivan is such a fag

Clarence Thomas is the n word

Antonin Scalia is nothing but a dago

William Renquist is a hebe

Newt Ginrich is a honkey

we shouldn't allow

Karen Hughes is a bitch.

I just can't phathom the problem here. I really can't. After all, you have no problem deciding on and enforcing other rules. What is wrong here?
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. it's because posters here want sexist epithets to use
since they can't use racist or homophobic epithets.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #72
88. You just like the n-bomb, Slinkerwink
8 threads on this today, and you found a way to get the n-bomb on all 8 threads.

There's something pathological about that, Slinkerwink.

I'm far more upset with the casual use of the n-bomb than anything else I've seen in this whole mess.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #88
104. because I am equating the word "bitch" with the "n" word
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #104
131. There isn't ONE SINGLE reference work that agrees with that opinion
I'm sick of the n-bomb on threads. You have no case for using it. Not a single reference work allows for it's usage in any situation.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #131
134. read post #110
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #134
149. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:41 PM
Original message
I find that very hard to believe
It certainly isn't unique to Slinkerwink and I that these are roughly equivalent terms. There is only one word that I can think of that is worse to call women and I sure am not typing it.
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #72
99. Yeah
It couldn't possibly be that as much as this is about sexism to you it's about free speech to others. Guess the ACLU is all about white supremacy, too.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #99
113. the moderators make no pretense of permitting totally free speech
if they did, then I wouldn't say boo. But they ban all kids of things. I can't truthfully call posters liars. I can't use racial epithets. I can't use religious epithets. I can't call people names based on sexual orientation. We had a forum that for months people couldn't post a whole host of things in. We couldn't make general statements about supporters of candidates. We couldn't say things about candidates. And on and on.
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #113
143. I know
But slinkerwink is making the accusation that the only reason people would be against it is because we want to use sexist, racial and/or homophobic statements.

It's one thing to say we're insensitive to her view of what's sexist. It's another to suggest we're racist, homophobic misogynists.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #143
155. I thought your post was referencing mine
I should have clicked the blue thing first sorry.
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #155
160. ah np :) n/t
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Triple H Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #70
77. Why not say what Karen Hughes really is?
Edited on Tue Apr-06-04 11:18 PM by Triple H
Why not allow that? You know she's one.

George Dubya Bush is a bitch too.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #77
85. for the same reason we don't allow
people to say Andrew Sullivan is a fag. I would be first in line complaining about that so I can well understand why women posters would be offended by bitch.
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Triple H Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #85
91. Calling Condi a "bitch" is the truth...
you know that. Her attitude has pointed that out on numerous occassions.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #91
97. there are plenty of non offensive things to call Ms Rice
If you can't think of one, buy a thesaurus.
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Madrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. Yeah, but somehow "Intelligent woman of a high moral compass"
just doesn't seem to fit.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #98
105. I highly doubt that any thesaurus would list those
as synomums of the word we are discussing.
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Madrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #105
109. *L* - the problem being, you said "non offensive" -
There's not much I could find myself calling Condi, thesaurus or otherwise, that wouldn't be deemed "offensive".
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #109
112. call her gender-neutral insults
like monster, hideous, cold-hearted person, dumbass, asshole, and armpit of humanity. There's so many creative ways to do insults without having to do an attack on that person's gender.
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Triple H Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #112
115. "bitch" isn't an attack on her gender...
I don't know about you, but I've seen hundreds of posts tonight that say it's a gender-neutral term.

You are one of the very few people that's having a problem seeing that...
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #115
121. look at post #110 as to why it IS an attack on her GENDER.....
please consider Eloriel's post carefully.
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Triple H Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #121
133. It's an attack on her attitude...
not her gender.

Get your head out of the sand.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #133
135. no, it is on her GENDER.....the dictionary says that the word
"bitch" as an insult is expressively for a FEMALE....
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Triple H Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #135
142. Hmmm....
in "today's" definition of the word, it's an attack on a person's attitude, not his/her gender.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #142
148. no, it is assumptions about her gender that is being attacked
for example, look at post #110 for an excellent explanation of that.
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Triple H Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:46 PM
Original message
Oh please...
One definition of the word "bitch" is: "malicious or spiteful."

Where is that attacking her gender???
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
165. you forgot to add the rest of the definitions where it shows
the word itself is designed to attack the female gender:

Main Entry: 1bitch
Pronunciation: 'bich
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English bicche, from Old English bicce
1 : the female of the dog or some other carnivorous mammals
2 a : a lewd or immoral woman b : a malicious, spiteful, or domineering woman -- sometimes used as a generalized term of abuse
3 : something that is highly objectionable or unpleasant
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:50 PM
Original message
You keep demonstrating your AMAZING ignorance...
of language and the uses to which it is put. People call Ann Coulter a bitch...have you seen anyone say it about Mother Teresa?

It is a SPECIFIC insult. NOT a general one.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
175. it is a specific sexist insult based on her gender
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #175
182. It is a specific insult...
that ACKNOWLEDGES gender. There is a difference. Would you ban words like "shrew", "harpy", "harridan", "termagant", and so on, as well? These are ALL rough equivalents in meaning to "bitch", and all are gender-specific. GENDER-SPECIFICITY IS NOT SEXIST.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #182
229. here ya go
Bitch is a gender specific insult. When it's applied to men, it's an insult because it equates them to women who are behaving in socially unacceptable ways ("being bitchy"). It is a SEXIST word. Period. For further information, see my previous post about stereotypes.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #229
243. I already know about stereotypes, thank you.
And I don't see why the use of a gender-specific insult for a person behaving in a manner worthy of being insulted is a problem. Shall we ban gender-specific terms altogether? Get rid of "woman", and replace it with "human being with two X chromosomes"? Get rid of "wife" and replace it with "contractual life-partner"?

I say AGAIN (although it doesn't seem to be penetrating) there is no sexism unless there is a clear intention and implication of gender SUPERIORITY. The WORD is not sexist. That is your opinion, but you are wrong. A WORD is nothing, by itself. Context is everything. I sincerely hope you aren't an English major.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #121
139. No justification for N-BOMB. Not one reference supports you.
There isn't a single reference work that agrees that the n-bomb is appropriate for any use in any discussion. The n-bomb is taboo is all situations... not just WHEN SLINKERWINK DECIDES IT IS AND ISN'T OKAY!!!!!
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #139
158. look at post #156
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #158
272. Know of a 1934 time warp we're about to be sucked through?
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 01:38 AM by mouse7
If we aren't about to all be cast into the year 1934, the discussion of the somewhat recent histrory of the n-word being taboo is irrelavent.

The n-bomb is clearly taboo today. Nobody is trying to change that... although Slinkerwink has suggest more people should be using it on DU forums instead of her pet issue.

You do not use language that is considered patently offensive and taboo.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #272
278. I'm saying that since the word "n*gger" is considered offensive,
and that "faggot" is also considered offensive, why should the word "bitch" be exempt from that? Why defend the usage of a sexist word?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:03 AM
Original message
Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #115
123. Oh please
The only time people call men bitches are to either a) call them gay or b) equate them to women. It is nothing short of absurd to call bitch gender neutral.
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #115
137. that is absurd
The word is use ONLY AGAINST WOMEN, that is why it is sexist.

When used against men, it is to insult them by implicitly comparing them to women. It is similar to saying "he's a pussy" or "he's got no balls," phrases which make the sexism - the idea that women are inherently weak and cowardly - obvious.

Again, I would like to hear what other interpretations people have to the phrase "George Bush is a bitch." Explain to me the meaning of that insult. I assert that you can not interpret it in any way other than how I've described above.

Karen Hughes, Condi Rice, Ann Coulter - this insult is hurled ONLY AT WOMEN. Again, THAT is proof that it is sexist. People can argue all they want about how they would use it against men, but the fact is they don't, because it wouldn't make sense.

The word, as an insult, which is the specific use being considered for a ban here, is inherently sexist. There really is no way around that.
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Triple H Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #137
153. Oh please.....get out of your shell.
One of the definitions of the word "bitch" is: "3 : something that is highly objectionable or unpleasant." George Dubya Bush is a bitch because he is an unpleasant human being.

Where's the sexism in that?
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #153
164. I have never seen that definition
and no one uses it that way.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #164
181. I use it that way. I've been known to call Wolf Blitzer a..
bitch on several occasions. So don't say, "nobody."
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #181
195. I can find people who say 2+2 = 5
that doesn't mean it does. Any guy who is called a bitch is going to assume that gender is coming in.
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #181
207. you have?
I searched and could only find one instance:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

But it was by a poster named Progressive1.

The specific definition of bitch being used here isn't clear. However, I would argue that because your definition isn't as well known, and is therefore not likely to be the definition that pops into people's minds, it would be more legitimate to assume that "bitch" is being used to emasculate him.

And again, if your argument holds then I should be able to say Democrats are niggers because they are so politically disadvantaged these days. If DU will agree to that then it's fair all around.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #153
167. the REST of the definitions say
Main Entry: 1bitch
Pronunciation: 'bich
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English bicche, from Old English bicce
1 : the female of the dog or some other carnivorous mammals
2 a : a lewd or immoral woman b : a malicious, spiteful, or domineering woman -- sometimes used as a generalized term of abuse
3 : something that is highly objectionable or unpleasant
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #153
187. uh-huh
And how often is that definition used here? Seriously, if I go search on the word bitch, do you think THAT'S the definition that's going to come up most often?

Let's not pretend here. We all know the word bitch, when used in the way Skinner is referring to, is almost exclusively used against women. Yes, you can go ahead and make the argument that it CAN be used against Bush in the way you've described, but it isn't, and that's the problem. It pretty much always used to either insult a woman or to emasculate a man.

By the way, if this argument does hold then I should be free to use the nigger, defined as a member of any socially, economically, or politically deprived group of people. Like, arabs are the new niggers in a post-9/11 world. Is that OK, then?

And hey, as I've said before, I object to the banning of all words, so I would in fact object to the banning of the word nigger. I still wouldn't use it, not even in this "good" way, because I know how offensive it is and I realize that trying to justify it by pulling out a rarely used definition doesn't really hold up.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #115
321. oh sure, people say it but they can't back it up with logic.
lots of people say bush is comapssionate...it doesn't make it true...
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #109
117. I mean offense to women as a whole
which I think you knew.
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Madrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #117
119. Sorry - it just struck me as funny.
That is all. :)
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ant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #91
114. how is it the truth?
To me, Condi's a bitch because she's tough and opinionated. However, I don't see why I would insult her for that. The fact that women are insulted for being tough and opinionated is something I find sexist. Now, her dishonesty, lack of integrity, and total disregard for reason are things I would insult her for. She's a liar, incompetent, a fool, etc.

Now I'm curious: Why is she a bitch to you? What is it, specifically, about her attitude that merits calling her a bitch?
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Triple H Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #114
129. If I have to explain it to you...
then you've been living under a shell for the past three years.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #85
179. A bitch is a female dog. How do we equate that with a ..
female human? I don't get it.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #179
241. because the one thing they share in common is that they're female
and bitches are meant to breed. It became an insult against women in England somewhere in the 1500s.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #70
80. because
fag, nigger, honky and dago don't describe any individual traits - they're just epithets against a group.

"Bitch" describes individual traits, actions or attitudes.
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Triple H Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. Exactly.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #80
93. actually that isn't true
both the n word and fag have often been distinguished on the basis of traits by racists and homophobes respectively. I have had racists in MS tell me, in way more detail than I ever wanted to know, the difference between n words and blacks. I have also had people tell me "you may be gay but you aren't a fag". So at least in those cases there is a difference that is based on behavior.
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Rationality Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #70
108. No DSC, we need 49827345 more of these threads!!!
I mean, we're talking about the word "bitch!"

This is far more serious than anything I've ever seen!!!

9/11? Bush's war on the Bill of Rights? Bush's war on medical research? The Fox News Smear Machine? CHILDISH ISSUES!!!

Why didn't we show all this for Janet Jackson's brea--GASP!!! I CAN'T EVEN SAY THE WORDS!! BR--EAHA YEEHA!

We can't allow this atrocity to go on! I mean... words! It's worse than evil!
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #108
322. hey Velma...here's another vote for childish
really big and bold too :eyesroll:
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #70
320. it's the last frontier
and some people seem determined to draw the line just short of granting women the same sensitivity as all the other groups mentioned.

big surprise?
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MikeG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
83. There is never a good reason to call a woman a bitch.
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Madrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #83
89. You've obviously never met my SO's ex-wife!
n/t
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #83
90. Never a good reason to throw the n-bomb around casually, either. n/t
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #90
102. Then how would you sing along to Gangsta Rap tunes?
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #102
265. Gansta rap uses word "bitches" WAY more than n-word
How can YOU sing along to gangsa rap tunes?

Slinkerwink is not African-American. She can't use the word.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #265
277. then why can you, presuming you to be male, use bitch?
By your logic, only women should be allowed to use bitch. And, you surely aren't trying to claim that the use of bitches (and hos) by male rap artists is anything other than sexist and degrading, are you?
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #277
283. The Encarta Dictionary says black english usage is not offensive
Two women were the editors that made the word usage final decisions on that dictionary.

It's not me saying it's not offensive. It's the experts in word usage the edited the Encarta Dictionary.

Personally, I am quite certain that I have typed out/used the word "b---h" more in this discussion than in all the rest of my 40 years combined. So MY usage isn't an issue, because I personally don't use the word hardly at all.

I'm involved in this because I'm defending other people from insults, and a brand new dictionary that I dropped $50 for is an outstanding source for determining proper word usage in the English language. Slinkerwink and VelmaD have lost all standing in the conversation as far as I'm concerned because of their behavior towards others in this flame war. People who are so concerned about being offended shouldn't so casually be so blatantly offensive towards others. It's gross hypocrisy.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #283
285. no that isn't what you said that they said
You said that they said two black women using the term toward each other isn't offensive. That is a huge difference.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #285
288. I own the Encarta dictionary. I know what it says
It says is not considered offensive in Black english to refer to females as an identifier alone with the term. It's slang, but not offensive.

I never said there was a stipulation about "two black women."

You're confused. I said two women were chief editors of the Encarta Dictionary. Two woman lexicographers managed and made the final decisions on word usage in the Encarta Dictionary.

Two female expert lexicographers lead editors determined that usage of the word in question was not offensive.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #288
290. then they are flat out wrong
I am pretty sure that the word fag is used pretty often by blacks. That doesn't make it right or non offensive. I fail to see why that would be true for bitch.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #290
292. My guess is they determined the word has evolved in rap music
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 02:28 AM by mouse7
There's too many instances in rap music and African-American culture where the word is used with no offense intended or taken.

If the word is being used that often with no offense meant or taken as a simple identifier of a female, then that's what the usage there is for that word. I don't choose to use it, but some do use the word with no offense intended. Who are we to judge what proper in informal African-American culture? They know the proper context of their situation. We don't.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #283
325. not my encarta dictionary
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_561599727/definition....

all three uses of the word as a noun reference it's offensiveness.

bitch < bich >

noun (plural bitches)

1. taboo term: a highly offensive term for a woman that describes her as spiteful, quarrelsome, and unprincipled ( taboo )


2. complaint: a querulous nagging complaint ( slang ) ( often considered offensive )


3. something difficult: a difficult thing or situation ( slang ) ( often considered offensive )
That locks a real bitch to open.


and you wrote:. People who are so concerned about being offended shouldn't so casually be so blatantly offensive toward others. It's gross

back atcha...as (my guess) the most constant and prolific defender of the word bitch, you are the hypocrite when you claim offense at the use, in a discursive, comparative manner, of the word nigger.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #83
107. bravo!
:toast:
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #83
186. Not to you. You can't speak for everybody...
Can you?
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leftistagitator Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
96. No
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
110. I came out of self-imposed exile from DU to post on this issue
There are some things haven't been covered, and I have a response to some of the wrong-headed notions I've seen expressed.

First, I commend Skinner on re-thinking this issue re use of the word "bitch" at DU. I see that as a step in the right direction of addressing the sexism that is rampant at DU, so I'm very positively impressed. And whichever staunch and courageous women here at DU made this ENOUGH of an issue that got his attention, good on you. I gave up.

One needs only read through some of the posts that have been made in these threads to see some (just some) of the sexism -- from trivialization, dismissiveness and ridicule of the concerns and explanations about why it's sexist and ought not be used in a "progressive" forum to downright hostility -- all of which are tools which have been traditionally and historically used to fend off women's concerns about anything and everything.

Now, this isn't a First Amendment or "free speech" issue. Your Constitutional rights are guaranteed against government censorship, not private property (e.g., internet disussion forum) censorship. When some of you are calling for "free speech" above all is really a demand for license -- the questionable "right" to say whatever you want, wherever and whenever you want to. That doesn't help build community, it doesn't model civilility, and it's not the way our society works.

I too am shocked this even has to be discussed. Like some of the other feminist women here, I've always been deeply and quite personally offended by its occurrence here, and the tolerance for it. Just as Slinkerwink points out, it's equivalent to various racial and other slurs and other hate speech. I'm not black, so I can't know if African Americans feel exactly about "nigger" as I feel about "bitch" and other sexist slurs, but roughly equivalent should frankly be more than enough. AND we shouldn't have to prioritize categories of offensivenesse when we're talking about the systemic practices that keep whole classes of people oppressed.

Here's one of the things about the word bitch that hasn't been discussed (at least not in the threads I've read -- and I haven't read all of them). The connotations (implied meanings) of the word refer to denigrating stereotypes about women that have been used to keep us "less than" and unequal for millennia. A "bitch" is a pushy, complaining, nagging woman; a woman who doesn't know her proper place, or how to "act like a lady."

The fear of being called a bitch has keep women from speaking up for themselves, kept them from expressing their own inner strength, kept them from rocking the boat, kept them from doing better than the boys on tests or better than the men on the shop floor or in the office suites. It's kept their mouths shut, their comportment "ladylike" and meek instead of empowered. On and on.

I despise Ann Coulter and Condi Rice as much as any of the rest of you, but when you call them "bitch," you send the message to all women that they must stay in line "or else" and the message to all men that it's okay to denigrate women because they are women. And you send a message to the women of DU that this place isn't really home for us.

Some have said that language can't hurt anything. It's only words. It's the "idea" behind the "phonetics" that counts, yadayada. Here's why language matters. Language reflects how we as a culture see things and even think, and affects how individuals within that culture sees things and think. There are no two ways about it -- language is a self-enforcing mechanism for culture itself. When the culture changes, language changes; when language changes, the culture changes.

I don't remember which language it is, but I read some time ago about that members of that culture aren't particularly self-reflective and especially don't think about the past because the language doesn't really have a past tense. There's no way to say something like "Ten years ago we did such and such." That's one example of how language affects the way we think: no past tense = no past to talk about or think about.

Here's another example, and it pains me to even have to mention this because it reminds me that so many younger progressives have a dearth of knowledge and understanding about what went on just in my lifetime -- what conditions were for women BEFORE "the women's movement" and what we went through to get where we are today -- all of which frightens me about how easily those gains can be lost.

Anyway, in the bad old days one of the things we women fought for was more inclusive language. If someone spoke about "the Chairman of the committee," the visual image everyone (yes, everyone) got was of a chairMAN. If they used the term "chairperson" or (eventually) the less awkward term "chair," the image was more gender-neutral. It introduced the subtle notion that a woman could be chairing the committee.

Now that may seem unimportant, perhaps even quaint. But in the bad old days, it was a BFD. Over time, changing the way people thought about who could chair committees or meetings helped open up the opportunities for women to do just that. And that's just one example.

Similarly, the use of the word "mankind" in the history and sociology and other books. It implied that the men of our species were the only ones who ever DID anything. "Humankind," however, implied that men AND women were involved in whatever it was that book or passage was discussing. BIG difference, especially since women had been written OUT of history books (or more accurately, never put in them to start with). Whatever women did just wasn't "important," or noteworthy, or even noticed at all.

Language matters enormously. As long as women, a still very oppressed class, can be treated in verbally abusive ways (as a group, as individuals in that group, or as members of the classoutside the group -- i.e., an Ann Coulter or a Condi Rice) in "polite" society and progressive discussion forums by being called "bitch," our job of achieving full equality is made all the harder.

There is no GOOD or acceptable reason for using gender-specific insults to describe any woman.

I myself am also going to stop using the word "bitch" as a verb -- as in to bitch and moan. It STILL stereotypes women, no matter who it's applied to because it refers to someone who is bitching "like a complaining woman."

As for "bitchslap," I still don't know what the real meaning of the term is -- several different and contradictory definitions have been posted. It's not a term I would have ever used, and I always cringe when I see it. It still contains the word "bitch" and that still stereotypes and degrades women.

Unlike what some here have suggested, it doesn't really matter whether the person using these terms are specifically thinking of "complaining women" when they use "bitch" or any of its derivatives or not, that's what the word essentially refers to, unless it's specifically referring to a female dog.

On a related note, what's all this anti-PC crap? Do you all realize that the backlash against "political correctness" was started back in the late 70s (if not earlier) by the rightwing as a way to get to hang onto their racism and sexism? I know -- I was there. WERE YOU? Why is an essentially rightwing argument being made here? Political correctness never meant ANYthing other than being careful not to say sexist and racist things in public -- making verbal racism and sexism (and other decidedly non-progressive speech) socially unacceptable. What the hell is wrong with that?





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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #110
118. Kudos to you, Eloriel!
:yourock:
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #110
128. Oh Eloriel it is so good to see you
*smooch smooch smooch*

You always make the point so much better than I can. :)

Since you pretty much said everything I could ever hope to say on this subject I'm gonna take some good advice I got from Will earlier and go kick back and get away from this thread for awhile. Rest up for the fight tomorrow. I have no doubt I'm leaving the discussion in the best hands. :)
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #128
130. Eloriel rocks!
:grins:
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #128
209. Velma, from what I've seen, you've been doing a fine job
And I appreciate what you and Slinkerwink are trying to do. Sexism is definitely one of the reasons I pretty much left DU. I put up with it for a long time, but it was always hurtful, but combined with other things it just wasn't worth it any more.

Don't oversleep -- I can't stay. Got some other stuff in my life I have to attend to.

Keep up the good work, all you who are fighting the good fight.

But before I got, another point or two:

Yes, we ARE speaking "for all women," or as Velma more accurately put it, "for all women's rights." I don't care if some women don't get it, some women aren't offended, some women think we're crazy. They haven't studied what I have, they haven't lived the life I have, they don't understand things the way I do. No one will be HARMEd if DU gets enlightened enough to discontinue its tolerance for the word 'bitch,' dozens if not hundreds of women will feel more comfortable here, and IMO DU will have struck a small but significant blow on society's rampant sexism.

I think this is JohnLocke's argument, and similar to TahitiNut's argument (tho not Tahiti's words):

ONCE AGAIN: they are NOT the same.
Terms such as "nigger," are applied towards blacks simply because they are blacks. The term "bitch" is not applied solely to women, nor does it reflect an immutable female characteristic of complaining (to imply so is sexist in itself). Therefore, the analogy is bullshit.


Bitch is a gender specific insult. When it's applied to men, it's an insult because it equates them to women who are behaving in socially unacceptable ways ("being bitchy"). It is a SEXIST word. Period. For further information, see my previous post about stereotypes.
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Madrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #110
132. Thank you for your post.
I appreciate it, and appreciate the thought behind it. I do not, however, agree. As a woman, I cannot get worked up over it. Other things, yes, not this. I do use the word, and I will continue to do so, whether it's banned from DU, or not. I may have to watch myself on DU, if that is what happens, but I won't stop using it.

One of the things you say "bitch" means in your post is:

a woman who doesn't know her proper place, or how to "act like a lady."


All I have to say to that is - Guilty as charged! I OWN it - and happily.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #132
140. what I'm saying is that it's perfectly fine for women to own words
like "bitch" or "cunt" and turn them into positive words like african-americans have done with the "n" word. However, a white man still cannot call a black person a "n*gger" based on his or her race and neither should a man call a woman a "bitch" based on her gender. That is an verbal attempt by men to subordinate women.
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Madrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #140
177. We obviously differ on this -
I definitely OWN it, I use it, and I don't care if others, regardless of their gender, use it too.

If I'm ACTING like a bitch and I get called out on it - well, I've got to OWN that too.

I guess that all boils down to where we disagree. I don't see women getting called out as a bitch simply for having a vagina. I see women getting called out (and I will CALL them out) for ACTING like a bitch.

And by "acting" like one I don't mean the strong, independent, self-sufficient meaning either...
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sir_captain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #110
136. just a small point
Edited on Tue Apr-06-04 11:40 PM by sir_captain
"Now, this isn't a First Amendment or "free speech" issue. Your Constitutional rights are guaranteed against government censorship, not private property (e.g., internet disussion forum) censorship" does not help your argument (and you make a lot of otherwise good points.) This is the same sort of thing that country clubs say who won't allow Jews or African-Americans to join--and I don't think you want to get in bed with them. Just because it's legal to censor doesn't mean that it should be taken lightly.

If a word is banned, it should be decided on its merit, and not simply because it is or is not protected by the constitution.

As for your question about what is wrong with being PC, there isn't anything. The issue is that extremes can run both ways. Being super-PC has been a way for some (not all, clearly) to overly see themselves as victims, which in my opinion, takes away attention from extremely serious bigotry. (And no, I am not a white male; and yes, as a multi-cultural person who is also Jewish, I've faced plenty of bigotry myself.)

edit: typo
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #136
144. Stop making sense, sir_captain
Were you a kinder soul, you wouldn't point out all the strawmen in the room.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #110
141. If they ban these words- you may never write another post like this...
I would rather read & encourage great rebuttals like this than have DU censorship...

I've gotten more insight from posts like this than I would have if it had not come up...

As far as PC goes- I WANT people to say what is on their mind- that way I have a better idea of where they are comming from.

I dont know- it just does not seem natural to suggest people should not say certain things- it's more Liberal to let them say it, and then express why you disagree....
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #141
146. but then your logic would dictate that people should say
racial epithets here, and then we'd explain politely why we disagree. That doesn't invite polite discourse, to be honest.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #146
157. Oh- I am not saying we encourage it, the opposite...
and I am for using racist words in certain situations- so long as they are in context.

I am not saying we encourage people to use the word- I am saying that if it is a big deal, call them out on it.

Educate, dont censor.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #110
162. You AREN'T Black, Elorial. No justification for n-bomb here
Edited on Tue Apr-06-04 11:47 PM by mouse7
Elorial, you said you're white, and you don't know how African-Americans feel about the n-bomb?

Then how in the FUCK can you comment and say you think it's justified to use the n-bomb?

Get that bigoted crap off the DU message boards.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #162
169. MuddleoftheRoad, as an African-American, had plenty to say
about the "bitch" word, and he said it was comparable to the "n*gger" word. So, yeah, I'd take his word over yours.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #169
190. Does he speak for all black people? I'm black. ..
He doesn't speak for me. And, I don't agree with his assessment.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #169
193. Every language reference on the internet considers the n-bomb taboo
I' don't give a rats ass what Muddle says. i'll go 1000s of academic language references vs. one person anyday.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #162
233. repeat yourself much mouse7
seeing as you keep repeating ad naseum the same screech...here's a bit of word transfer fun for you

Mouse7 you're male, and you don't know how women feel about the b-bomb?

Then how in the FUCK can you comment and say you think it's justified to use the b-bomb?

Get that bigoted crap off the DU message boards.


didn't even have to change that many of them

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #233
237. *winks*
I feel like I oughta give you a :yourock:
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #233
266. N-bomb is not similar. There are no justified usages of n-bomb
Every single dictionary has some non-offensive usages of the word "bitch"

"Cool, these are some bitchin' waves, duds!

Nothing offensive about the word in that context. There is NO contect the n-word isn't taboo for non-AAfrican-Americans. It's still considered taboo and offensive withiong the Afrcian-American community, but it not the "ultimate" taboo in that usage, and does get said between Blacks.

Slinkerwink IS NOT Black. there is not justification for Slinkerwink to be tossing n-bombs all ove DU.
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #110
268. Thanks for posting this Eloriel.
I just found these threads and I regret not having the time or energy to read them fully- but I've followed every other thread on this topic and I imagine it's running along the same lines.

I agree with you 100%.

The word "bitch" is a control mechanism that tells women if they don't say what men want them to say they can be written off and ignored. Like "fag" it is frequently used to define the limits of acceptable behavior for different genders. I would hope a democratic messageboard would be able to move beyond such a mindset.

I think if a headline like "George Bush is a fag" is beyond the pale, then "Barbara Bush is a bitch" should be likewise. It's not about the evidence that proves they are a fag or a bitch- it's the use of these terms to castigate those who step outside gender boundarys that we all recognize as archaic.

And it can't be stated enough that this is not about banning a word. It's about banning a word used in a specific (historically offensive) context.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #268
270. exactly----"bitch" is equally as offensive as "faggot" and as "n*gger"
If you ban the two because of their discriminatory use, then why shouldn't you also ban "bitch" as a sexist epithet against women?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #270
276. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #110
327. kicking so i can finf this later
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drhilarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
111. Yes! Let's just censor everything! Woohoo!
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
122. No- we should argue with people who say things we dont like...
...and let them explain what they meant. And then explain to them why we dont like it. Then move on. OR discuss FURTHER...

I believe the solution to speech you disagree with is MORE SPEECH- Not censorship.

I'd rather read posts where people are arguing about the implications of language and censorship than to actually implement self-imposed censorship.

When people say things I disagree with, I debate them istead of making them "shut up"...
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
126. How about the word "vagina"?
As in, "Cartman, you're such a vagina."

Or, "you've got an enormous stick up your vagina."
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #126
184. Not as a noun
But it might be acceptable as a verb. Naturally, you'd have to convert it into "vaginaing," which technically is a gerund and thus a noun, but I'll have to check my Borzoi Handbook.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #184
191. The pimp bitch-vaginaed his ho.
hmm.
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #191
211. No, no, no
"The pimp vagina-bitched his ho" would be acceptable, because of appropriate use of 'bitch' as the verb. Whether 'vagina' can be used as an adverb, however, has yet to be determined. I expect that to be covered in tomorrow's eight threads.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #126
192. I regard any opposite-gender epithets as inherently sexist.
Words have gender. (I can't even imagine this discussion being taken seriously in French or German!)

Any demeaning characterization of a member of one gender using a word with opposite gender-associations seems to almost always be sexist, imho. Saying "Condi wears a skirt" has no impact. Saying "Blair wears a skirt" is sexist since the clear implication is that he's somehow less courageous or just effeminate.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
147. Almighty! If you promise to stop these threads, I'll never..
say bitch again. :crazy:
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MikeG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
161. Use of sexist terms like "bitch" is something I'd expect from a freeper.
Just ask yourself this question: Is this how I want to be remembered?
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #161
171. good question....
:toast:
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
183. Cant we make this a poll
I think the only time the use is inappropriate is in personal attacks.

If your saying we cant call a female person (say a conservative) then we would have to ban all the other terms like dick, dick head etc.

I think that is what the ingore features are for.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #183
188. There already WAS a poll...86% AGAINST banning the word.
(n/t)
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
197. Worst thread ever.
:wtf:
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Rationality Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #197
212. Naw. It's pretty fucking funny actually
Igonre the issues. Let's discuss something more serious. Haggle the moderators, someone called me a bitch. :eyes:
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Triple H Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
199. I say no.
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 01:01 AM by Triple H
I'm so sick of the cencoring that's been going on my tv since Bush came into office, from Howard Stern getting thrown off the air to RW Christian Fundies wanting to cencor daytime soap operas. Where is the cencoring going to end? Why does anyone have to act like our mommy? If you start cencoring out one word, then what words are next? You gonna take away swear words? Are we gonna have to stop saying "media whore?"

Times change. The meanings of words change with time. The term "gay" used to genearlly mean "happy" back in the 40's, 50's, and 60's, but times have changed and the meaning is now different. The word "bitch" has changed. It is now gender-neutral. It encompasses both women and men. I don't use the term "bitch-slap" that much. When I do use it, though, it's gender-neutral.

Obviously, there's still gonna be people offended at other words we use. One will never get away from being offended. I get offended by atheists on this website that say my religious beliefs is a bunch of crap. You know what I do? I ignore it. I don't let it bother me. It's easy as that, and don't try to tell me otherwise.

I think if we do ban words, then people will lose their Freedom of Speech. After all, we're progressives, right? Don't we advocate Freedom of Speech? If we start banning words, then we are hypocrites.

I think it's about time that we focus on people dying or George's lies to the country instead of a stupid word. 12 people died in Iraq today. That's way more important than a stupid word. Don't try to tell me otherwise.

I think that the best way to do is cencor it on the context w/in a post instead of cencoring the word altogether.

I'm done arguing this. Obviously no one is gonna change his/her mind on the issue.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
200. I do see women using it...
...and not in that "co-opting it to lessen the hostility" kind-of-way. And I think it's condescending to call them sexist against themselves or hegemonized or whatever generally. Would women get punished for that here? That's why I say "no" to the whole forbidding thing.
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bubblesby2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
204. Don't ban or prohibit anything.
I was attracted to this site for its openess and freedom of expression. Please don't change it.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #204
206. so freedom of expression to you means calling women "bitches?"
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #204
213. that horse has already left
This site censors all kinds of things.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #213
328. Either make an induction proof, or stop
The site censoring other things doesn't implicitly mean we should censor this thing.
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
205. Stupidity begets stupidity... My god. This is a caricature of liberal
thought that I would expect to see on FR.

NO!
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #205
214. The thing is, there are only a few caricaturists here
With cartoons in mind, and lots of enthusiasm.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #214
264. Let's overcome
sexism with narcissism. Yeah. That'll save the day!
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
226. Skinner fall asleep? Where is thread 9?
I've been following this for hours now, I want to see the finish.
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Madrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
230. I'm going to bed - but I have 2 observations first -
1. the "n-bomb" posts. I may be way off base here, but from what I can tell, Mouse is using this constant harrassing and chasing of Slink around the board with the "n-bomb" postings to demonstrate what the "Mysogyny!!!" posts on so many threads look like to many of us that don't fight the "bitch" fight as one of our personal battles. I would imagine (and he may correct me if I'm wrong) that he does not in the least consider Slink a racist - he is simply trying to demonstrate a point by turning the tables.

2. This "debate" has done far more for the use of the word "bitch" on this board than anything else could have done. Kind of like when they banned 2LiveCrew, the record sales went WAY up.


Goodnight, ya'll. Peace.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #230
239. mouse7 called me a bigot so I'd think he thinks I'm a racist
:shrug:
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Madrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #239
242. Like I said, I could be wrong - but I don't think so -
I think he used the term "bigot" like the term "mysogynist" has been thrown around here - and often against good DUers that are NOT.

*L* Someone DOES need to kick him though, cuz his needle is obviously stuck. :) And if I am correct and that IS his point, it seems to be lost on everyone because emotions are flaring too high.

Night, Slinkerwink. I don't agree with you necessarily, but I do understand the point you are trying to make.

Peace -and I'm out!
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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
249. No.
Slinkerwink and Eloriel have some excellent arguments based on its sexist connotations, but still. . . I can't ever ignore "original intent" on questions of word usage. Since I've lived with REAL bitches (i.e. female dogs) for my entire life and found them delightful creatures, I can shrug off any use that's intended as an insult. Bitches have more goodness of heart than most humans, male or female.

And how can we justify banning "bitch" as sexist when the threads are full of "fucking . . .," "we're fucked," etc.? Use of the four-letter f-word in any context OTHER then its original meaning as a verb is terribly sexist. Calling a female opponent a bitch, at worst, only insults one woman. Using the f-word in these contexts insults ALL women. Even saying something like "If we don't solve the Diebold machine problem, we're screwed," is subtly sexist.

Don't understand why I'm saying this? Think about it.

And no, I'm not calling for the f-word to be banned either. Just wanted to give you all something to ponder.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #249
252. the word "fuck" is not sexist
it's because it describes a consensual act between adults, whereas the word "bitch" is used against a woman's gender. When the word "bitch" is used against a woman, it is an attack on our gender.
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #252
267. Oh I never knew "fuck[ing]"
was necessarily consensual or necessarily between adults. How fascinating.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #267
271. that's why there's a word "rape" used to describe nonconsensual,
violent sexual act. "Fuck" is different from "rape" in its sexual meaning.
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #271
281. Sorry, that's just not accurate
Non-consensual sex can also be called "fucking." Besides, people like Andrea Dworkin think all fucking is a kind of rape. And what about the "adult" part? Is this a case of only adults being able to consent? Am I falling into my Intro to Women's Studies class now? It's like venturing into the land of the lost.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #281
286. *rolls eyes* that's a straw man's argument and you're not
addressing the sexism behind the "bitch" word.
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #286
289. I've addressed it previously
But you make incorrect assertions about language constantly and you won't defend them. What's the "straw man" (or woman as the case may be)? Consent? Dworkin? Age?

This sophistry posing as *ahem* something else is really quite tiresome. We should be disgraced it has lasted as long as it has.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
274. ATTENTION.....many of you are MISREADING Skinner's post as a wholesale
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 01:52 AM by slinkerwink
ban on the word "bitch."

Here's what he actually said:

"Please be aware that we are not going to forbid the use of the term "bitch" as a synonym for "complain bitterly," nor will we forbid the term "bitch" to mean "female dog." Those issues are not up for discussion. Also, to be clear... personal attacks against other members of Democratic Underground are not permitted, so it is already against the rules to call another member of DU a bitch.

To be more precise, the specific issues for discussion here are whether people should be permitted to use the term "bitch" when referring to high-profile political opponents, and whether members should be permitted to use the term "bitch slap" in almost any context."



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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #274
275. ALSO.......
I agree with the ban on the word "bitch" used towards high-profile political opponents, and the use of the word "bitchslap."

HOWEVER, I do not think that the word "bitch" as an adjective or verb should be banned.
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kaitykaity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
279. Oh, god, you poor thing.

My gut instinct is no. Don't.

You were right about that bitch thread being flamebait, and I would continue to use that standard to lock such things down.

The c word, yes, the p word, yes. Bitch, no. It depends completely on the usage. I mean what's next, banning "prick" when referring to men?

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #279
280. the word "bitch" is sexist, and should be banned, but I'm saying
that using it as a verb or adjective should not be banned. We shouldn't call high-profile political women "bitches" and we shouldn't use the term "bitchslap" either since that connotes violence. However, it is fine to say "I bitched about my day today," or "that was totally bitchin'"
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #279
326. Interesting. We seem to agree (pretty much).
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 07:12 AM by TahitiNut
What makes the 'p-word' and the 'c-word' sexist is the overtly demeaning connotation attached to an exclusively (as opposed to 'asshole') female body part (one of my personal favorites, FWIW). :silly:

To equate a gender-exclusive body part to an epithet is, imho, sexist, in that it demeans all those so anatomically-equipped. What I find somewhat strange is that 'prick' or 'dick-head' isn't afforded the same treatment, for exactly the same reasons. The only rationale I can see is that female-targeted sexism somehow deserves greater 'vigilance' due to the notion that, of the two(?) genders, women are the less-empowered and the more harmed by sexism. (This, however, has some disturbing social influences ... influences that somehow infer that 'reverse sexism' or misandry is acceptable.)

From a sheerly analytical standpoint, however, body-part-epithets have equal sexist connotations regardless of gender.

____________

Isn't it interesting that those who have little or no problem with allusions to the right-wing fascination with "Clinton's penis" would (apparently) take exception to an allusion that the right-wing is obsessed with "Monica's vagina"?? (I personally think the latter is a somewhat more accurate characterization of the obsession. I merely have to mention 'cigar' to make my case.) :shrug:
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nightperson Donating Member (550 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
291. Politics
can be dry, complicated and insular. I think for someone to (hypothetically) summarize something by saying "Michael Kinsley gave David Frum a public bitchslapping" (please visualize) would be far more helpful than harmful. I also think it would be helpful for some Democrats to lighten up and toughen up. Less talk, more rock :headbang: ! Dworkin can't help us!
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
295. NO!
Thanks for asking.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #295
296. No to the usage of the word "bitch" as a sexist epithet or no to
the use of the word bitch-slap?

What Skinner is saying is that we still can use the adjective and verb usage of the word "bitch" but not to use it as an insult to women.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #296
297. No to the language police
Edited on Wed Apr-07-04 03:07 AM by Stephanie
I like to say what I think. I'd like to use my full vocabulary here at DU. I object to this restriction.

*edit* - I can't read all these posts so I'm sure this is already posted but I reserve the right to call Rumsfeld a "prick", so I don't want this right restricted at DU.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #297
299. look...."bitch" is a part of "cunt" "whore" and "dyke"
that demeans women, by putting them down based on their gender. It's the equivalent of the "faggot" word here to many women like me and some men here in past threads who have spoken out against this.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #296
329. OK, so I can still say it, so long as I'm not putting down all women?
That's cool, since I never did that in the first place, nor did anyone that I'm aware of offhand.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:38 AM
Response to Original message
300. No. Happy to elaborate on #9, this one's toooooo long n/t
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #300
301. Dammit. The above was posted by SheWhoMustBeObeyed, not Mag
We are always mixing up each other's logins. Sorry M! That's what I get for staying up working too late.
SWMBO
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Spentastic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 04:30 AM
Response to Original message
306. No
No.

Some people find many words upsetting and I agree that progressives should be careful to bear in mind the feelings of others when they use them. Those who are offended are well within their rights to complain if they feel they are being wronged

However, if you start down this road all epithets must be banned and the site will suffer.

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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 04:38 AM
Response to Original message
308. My tuppence
not that it matters much... goddamn this has been a flamefest of gargantuan proportions, and I slept through it. I guess I should be grateful. Anyway... In the context you give Skinner, no it shouldn't be allowed, for reasons which have been outlined by too many people for me to bother repeating here.

V
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
316. Amazing, absolutely amazing
Eight threads and climbing. Meanwhile there is a campaign to deal with, dozens and hundreds are dying in Iraq, Bushco is preparing this country for kinder gentler facism, yet here we are, arguing over semantics. No wonder liberals and progressives aren't taken seriously :eyes:

Look, don't censor the language around here. I can insult a person, race, gender, country a thousand time worse without using the standard word bombs that we have all come to know and loathe, so can most other folks around here. Yet we don't, because we are liberals and choose not to paint with the broad brush. There are always going to be terms and phrases that pushes somebody's buttons, and if we catered to every semantic insult, pretty soon this board would have to close down due to lack of words.

I agree that bitch, in certain contexts is insulting to A woman. There are certain contexts where I simply don't use it because my mom raised me right. However there are certain contexts where it's use is perfectly legit and useful. If somebody uses it against you, call them on it, its that simple. Rules state that there are to be no personal attacks. The rules also say that ALL posters here need to have a thick skin. Being a Green on a primarily Dem board has subjected me to insults and epithets from the first day I started posting, nothing like being called traitorous scum and worse before I've even had my first cup of coffee. Yet I let it roll off my back and go on. I think more people need to learn that lesson. Besides, if I'm calling Ann Coulter a bitch, how am I insulting you? And don't give me the same ol' same ol' PC answer that somehow I am insulting all women by using the term. I am insulting Ann Coulter, that is all. And quite frankly, judging from my experience in the real world, that is an accepted use. Even the most feminist of my friends, both male and female continue to use the word, and don't find it insulting when I do also.

So please, please, let us drop this bandwidth wasting brand of PC run amok. If you don't like the term, don't use it. If you see the term used, and it isn't directed at you, ignore it. There are people DYING folks, and DU in it's own humble way is helping stem the tide of creeping facism engulfing this country. Getting ourselves tied up in knots over PC semantics is counterproductive and a waste of time. This is a big tent people, and we all speak somewhat differently. Get used to it, get over it, and let's go get those Bush bastards.
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Bertha Venation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #316
318. Well said, MadHound. I second your thoughts. eom
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #316
323. No wonder liberals and progressives aren't taken seriously
By who...The Fucking Freepers? I could give a flying fuck if the Fucking Freepers don't take us seriously... and don't fucking preach to DU'ers about their varied concerns IE should we continue using a word that offends people. There are 50 threads regarding Iraq and hundreds more about other importnat subjects.

We are diverse in opinion and can take on different subjects of importance.

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OneTwentyoNine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
324. Man,Am I glad I've been gone a few days............
This is nonsense pure and simple. So a woman gets called a bitch on DU so the HELL what?? Do we not call men pricks,assholes etc over and over??

This is some silly shit to even be posting especially by the owner of the site. Worse thing is you can't hit the X box and make this thread disappear. Gawd...........


David
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-04 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
330. I've changed my mind on this after reading the threads...
I started off thinking no it shouldn't, even though I do find it offensive, but after reading one posts where a defender of the use of the word when it's aimed at women calling another poster 'young lady', I've changed my mind. If people are aware that other DUers find the use of the word in specific contexts offensive, then why would they feel the urge to continue to use it? Most people don't continue to say or do things once they realise others are finding them offensive, but there are a small minority that will continue because their motive is to offend. And it's that small minority that now have me thinking that there could be a need for a bit of moderator intervention from time to time...

Violet...
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