How long will it take before we realize a 'war' on terrorism can't be won?

[Q]

- Five years? Ten? Twenty?

- How many Americans must die for a lie? A thousand? Ten thousand? Twenty thousand?

- We're not even keeping track of the number of Iraqis we kill in the name of WMD / terrorism / democracy / regime change.

- Sometimes war in necessary to defend a nation from attack or a friend from tyranny. But war based on lies and deception can't be anything more than a brutal and aggressive act against humanity and peace.

- Never lose sight of the fact that Bush's* war can never be won...in Iraq or anywhere else.

[greatauntoftriplets]

1. I know it now.

How many will die before the powers-that-be come to the same realization?

[rooboy]

2. I'd reckon about 15-20 years if we don't blow up the planet beforehand n/t

[imax2268]

3. Ive been thinking...

that it may never be won at all...unless it starts with the children of those countries where the hatred begins...if the kids are educated to not hate then I think things just might make a turnaround...but then again...who knows...it's a hell of a mess that's for sure...

And I also think that "W" hasn't done any good in deterring it either...

[ima_sinnic]

4. "those countries where the hatred begins" would have to include

the United States. How many children grow up hearing about "ragheads" and a multitude of other stereotypes and lies about nonwhite, non"Christian" peoples?

My heart breaks for the children in war zones, anywhere in the world, the children who are terrorized by death squads, who know only violence, fear, destruction, squalor and fear. Those in Iraq must wonder why "the United States" (that's you and me, folks) hate them so much.

[imax2268]

11. that's why I said..."those countries"...

I wasn't sure if I should actually say the US...I didn't want to get flamed...!

[mulethree]

48. Just for that!

I flame you for being afraid of a few flames!

Feel free to speak up, you're going to get flamed anyway
just because someone doesn't understand or posts their flame at
the wrong place in the thread.

But one question - do children have to be taught not to hate? or
do they have to not be taught to hate? I think maybe they naturally
don't hate, but that they learn it very easily.

[Jim Warren]

5. I would amend that to

*it may never be won at all...unless it starts with the political leaders of those countries where the exploitation begins*

[xchrom]

10. i take it you would include

right wing christian america?

[Jim Warren]

14. My point may have been unclear

but the political leaders to which i refer are indeed right wing, christian, and American

[Kipper58]

6. It took the British Government almost 30 years

to accept that the IRA couldn't be beaten by military means. No guerilla force that is supported by the population it lives among can be defeated by a conventional army. It was ever thus, and always will be. The pictures from Fallujah, although shocking, show that hundreds of Iraquis were unafraid to be identified in their support of their countrymen who are defending their home against an invading army. The pictures also show just how hated the so-called Coalition is. This entire invasion is a tragedy for BOTH sides.As usual, the only people who gain are the warmongers and profiteers.

[Shoedogg]

7. Sometime after we realize that...

the War on Drugs can't be won...

i.e. - a very long time from now.

[JNelson6563]

8. Like the war on drugs

it will never end. People will always think it will end.

Julie

[Q]

12. The 'war' on drugs...

...has been very lucrative for a very few individuals and industries. It seems that any kind of war can be used to keep the money flowing from our treasury in one direction.

- But notice there's no war on poverty? There's no profit in it.

[JNelson6563]

30. Exactly. War for profit

It's the American way.

[Q]

9. The Neocons seem to believe that terrorism...

...is like communism in that all they have to do to 'win' is kill everyone who looks like a terrorist. But more than anything...terrorism is about oppression and revenge. Killing innocent people breeds new terrorists looking for revenge for the death of their family and the occupation of their country.

- Unnecessary killing is the same...whether it's done by a brutal dictator or American bombs. Where in the hell did we ever get the idea that we could promote peace and democracy with bombs and guns?

[izzie]

13. Never has worked so I am sure it will not now.

Who is talking to Bush, Sharon? Guess when you have this great army it is fun to use it.Keeps all your friends in work. I guess it will stop when the voters understand it will not work and get the War Party out.

[Q]

17. Peace and negotiation has never been a goal...

...for the Bush* regime. That's why they don't have an 'exit plan' or a means to finally achieve peace. Perpetual war means neverending war profiteering and votes.

- Many Democrats don't seem to realize quite yet that both political parties intend to 'fight' a war on terrorism for generations to come. Both parties will keep the hundreds of military bases around the world and terrorism will prosper because of it. We'll continue to be the world's largest exporter of arms, weapons of mass destruction and oppression.

- There can't be a good ending to all of this until we learn to wage peace.

[xchrom]

15. ''we'' realize it

right wing america realizes it, left wing america realizes it, even the center realizes it.
but the center and the right believe beligerance in this case will ''buy'' safety. and at this time, the center and the right are the willing tools of bushco.
''we'' need to have a conversation about the american ''character'' -- the same people that used to show up for public lynchings in their sunday best.
we have not traveled very far, i would suggest.

[Gore1FL]

16. I think the War on terror can be won

but not with those in the WH running it. We aren;t fighting a war on terror, we are merely feeding it.

That is the main difference.

Iraq is not part of the war on terror. Had those resources been directed against Al Qeada, we'd be much much better off than we are now.

Instead, World support has been squandered along with blood and treasure from the Iraq diversion.

The War on terror can be won, but we have to fight one.

[Q]

18. You keep saying it 'can be won'...

...but you're not telling us how. Could it be that one way to 'win' this type of war is to stop killing people who aren't terrorists? Would it help to remove our military bases from countries that don't want them on their soil?

- Poor and oppressed countries use terrorism instead of armies to achieve their goals. The thing is...we already KNOW why terrorists are attacking...and it's not because they 'hate us for our freedoms'. The truth is...they hate us for our brutality and oppression.

[Gore1FL]

45. The approach to the 'win' does nto have to be all military.

Soemtimes we are going to need to throw punches, sometimes we need to send flowers. I do believe that we can eliminate a> the reasons for terrorism, b> the terrorist training facilties. c> the terrorists themselves.

There is no doubt in my mind that when properly executed, the removal of terror is possible.

[Disturbed]

19. Terrorism

A war on terrorism will never be won. Terrorism is a tactic that is used by many people &/or groups with causes.

Can the US win a war with Al Q. that utilizes terrorism is another question.

Iraq was no threat to the US in a conventional sense or a terroristic sense.

[Q]

20. Yes...Iraq was a diversion...

...from a failed Bush* WH. But you're right when you say a war against terrorism can't be won. This is especially true when we realize that terrorists plan and act in secrecy. (kind of like the Bush* government).

- You can kill off one terrorist group and one will spring up to take its place. This cycle of violence and revenge will continue until we finally realize that WE are the cause of terrorism. Terrorism is nothing more than a ongoing battle between the haves and have nots.

[Jim Warren]

29. Heh, my dilemma is

I am one of the have-nots.
The power elite that rule this country have more in common with there counterparts in Zurich, Riyadh or Mexico City than they do with me.

[Gore1FL]

46. You make a critical assumption

that the war on terror has to be fought as a war.

Terror can be eliminated -- but not exclusively by the sword.

Step 1 in any such war is rally the workld behind us (we had that before W ssquandered it)

Step 2 understand and address the grievences. Chances are, if someone thinks suicide as a worthy means to get our attention, perhaps we shopuld listen. -- That isn;t to say "cave-in" to them, that is to say, lets sit and talk and ,make a legitimate effort to resolve the issue.

Step 3 Stop our own dubious activities -- Lets face it, The Iraq war was a month of 9/11s for Iraqis. No wonder they are pissed.

[buddhamama]

21. some of us already know

some of us would say, That is the Whole point; A war without end.

[Q]

22. A warmongers dream: a war without end.

- And what a great deal for an American government operated and controlled by those with direct connections to the...energy and defense industries. But hey...that's just another coincidence or conspiracy theory.

- A nation is only as strong and peace-loving as its leadership.

- What does a corporate state desire more than anything? The answer is full control of the treasury and population. War is the only way to accomplish this in a democracy.

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. Terror will never go away

Modern technology has enabled a few malcontents the ability to cause great harm. It is a tactic embraced by lunatics of all stripes and will not go away.

The best you can do is limit its root causes and shut it down aggressively (kill terrorists) when you find them.

But in many ways, you can only go so far limiting root causes. There is a worldwide culture clash and anyone on either side of it (at the extremes) is likely to use terror as a means to an end.

[Q]

25. Can we assume that all terrorists are 'lunatics'?

- That may indeed be part of the problem. We seem to automatically assume that terrorists don't have a 'cause' they feel is worth fighting and dying for.

- And why should it be that we can only go 'so far' in eliminating root causes? We already know why terrorism exists...at least terrorism against the US. Terrorism rose in proportion to our 'involvement' in the middle east and the financial backing/arming of groups fighing against Russian involvement.

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. You can have a cause and still be a lunatic

Deliberately strapping a bomb onto your body and seeking to kill women and children meets my definition of lunatic.

As for how far we can go, let's look at it this way. There are fundamentalist groups of Islam out there that (if you've read Osama's lengthy list of why he hates the U.S. in his most recent letter) hate most everything about America. We will NEVER satisfy them unless we convert to Islam. So if you expect them to be satisfied with actions we take, you are bound to be disappointed.

You can't placate terrorists. Nor should you try.

[Disturbed]

24. Terrorism

Anti-Abortionists have utilized terrorist tacts, as have the KKK, Ayrian Nations and other groups in the USA. Terrorism is not limited to groups in the M E.

[Q]

26. True...

...but we're not fighting a 'war' against anti-abortionists or the KKK.

- Our war (this time) is against brown people with a different religion.

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. We already fought the war against the KKK

And the FBI did a fine job.

The radical anti-abortion movement has largely been discredited at this point.

[Q]

31. Oh, really? Looks like the radical anti-abortionists...

...are in control of this country. You seem to want to equate 'radical' with violence. That's not always the case. We have 'terrorists' in this country trying to destroy the rights of citizens...but they use our own laws against us instead of guns. You may have noticed that the Bushies are accomplishing everything the 'radicals' have always wanted: an end to choice.

- The KKK have stopped wearing white sheets...but that doesn't mean they're gone. Hell...some of them are running our government.

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. You left out a word

I said "radical." That means the folks who blow up abortion clinics.

I am pro-Choice. I have always been so. But it would be historically inaccurate to ignore the fact that abortion was, for hundreds of years, a crime in the U.S. Many good people disagree with us on this issue. To demonize them and link them to those who would blow up clinics is beyond unfair.

[Djinn]

47. they don't really need cred - they won

In how many towns in the US can you access abortion these days?

How many doctors are willing to perform abortions?

How many women have to travel across state lines to get one?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

32. Strange, Pat Buchanan is the only one I've seen publicly

challenging this whole concept of "war on terror" out in public. You'd at least expect one or two liberal op-ed types to discuss the fallacy of this but I've not seen it.

[BiggJawn]

33. Pesonally, I realized it as soon as it was announced.

"The War Against Terror" (TWAT<tm> )
"War on Drugs"
"War on Poverty"
"War on Illiteracy"

All miserable failures.
You can't declare "war" on an ideal, at least not a war that you're gonna prosecute with guns and bombs.

If we fought the War on Illiteracy like we're fighting TWAT, there wouldn't BE any Tee-Vee left in this country, but the Glass Tit is doing just fine, ain't it?

My first question was and still remains "WHAT government or country are we fighting? What? We're fighting Al-Qaeeda? What country is that? What? they're EVERYWHERE? So we gotta drop bombs EVERYWHERE?"

If the United States drops a bomb on Bumfuk, that's an act of war, because a Government did it.

If some militia bunch from where the snow doesn't melt till May does it, it's a criminal act.

The 11 Sept attacks were CRIMES.

[laylah]

We here at DU

already know it but for the rest of the sheeple, it will take as long as the War on Drugs has...forever!

Jenn

[Q]

36. But the 'government' says they're 'winning' the war on drugs....

...much in the same way they claim we're winning the war on terrorism. We have no way to dispute these claims because the media works FOR the government and not the people.

- We can no more stop terrorism than we can keep everyone from using drugs. The Bushies know this...but pretend they're fighting the good fight by putting drug users in jail and killing 'suspected' terrorists without a trial.

[laylah]

34. dupe...sorry n/t

[ixion]

35. not soon enough... should never have been accepted in the first place

from day one, I knew they would use the terra war in much the same way they've used the drug war, and they have. But more than that, I've been concerned that the concept of war itself is being diluted for these war of abstraction, which are not really wars as such. The last war, IMHO, was World War II.

Everything since then has been a combination of police actions and out-and-out slaughters. :-(

[ElsewheresDaughter]

37. not in Iraq and not the way bushco is doing it!

[ladjf]

38. The definitions of war and terrorism.

Wars are fought by opposing armies affiliated with national governments. Troops wear the uniforms of their side. Perhaps the ongoing acts of terrorism may be better understood if they were viewed as extreme cases of vandalism. What difference does the definition make? Wars are fought using major weaponry. Vandalism, on the other hand, is countered by first rate intelligence and police operations. Further, while we are in the process of apprehending the vandals, we should also scientifically approach the study of the root causes for such acts. Terrorism doesn't occur simply because there are "bad people" out their who want to harm us. The terrorists, rightly or wrongly, sincerely believe that the terror victims are their enemies. What caused them the feel that way? Valid answers to that question may ultimately be the solution to global terrorism.

[K-W]

39. The same day we realize that a war on drugs cant be won,

and that the cold war wasnt a war.

[BabsSong]

40. War on terror has shaken our arrogant little minds to the core

We believed that if we had the biggest baddest weapons on the block we would not only live safely but could impose our will anywhere. What you are looking at in America is a bully who is surrounded by kids who grew up and got muscles and now can't get his way anymore; thus, he's going crazy and trying to lunge at and attack all around him to try to get his status back. Unfortunately, the kids will just keep on growing stronger and older and inflict more pain on the bully. Our politicians know that is exactly where we are in our minds and are exploiting it to get power and keep power. The bully hasn't figured out yet that now he has to change tactics if he's going to rule the school yard. We are fighting that transformation all the way with old, school military might......this ain't your father's WW II, any more.

[Q]

43. This is also why 'missile defense' is such a joke...

...and is no more viable of an option than the war on drugs and terror.

- Sticks and stones vs technology. Guess which one wins in the end?

[alittlelark]

52. My father has been doin' 'Star wars' since it did not have the moniker.

His research has helped tens of thousands....ever had ANY laser surgery.....his research made it happen.


I understand the anger from where we are now.......but what about from where we were?

The defense industry is indeed innately evil, but those within it are not.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but their revelations may heal me.


I'm on a bit of a 'lark', but please understand what I am saying. Gov't sponsored science can be both a boon and a boondoggle.

[Joanne98]

42. as long as it's profitable. For some people.

If Americans started a stop shopping movement it might stop sooner.

[rucky]

44. I declare war against wars against stuff

especially intangible stuff.


who's with me?

[leftofthedial]

49. it took me about half a second

when he announced in his post-9-11 speech.

It is patently bullshit on its face.

Might as well have a war against arithmetic.

[alittlelark]

50. We will never realize it....until our 'free press'

is no longer 'corporate media'. Until we respect and honor our Historians..all of our debate is moot. We are living on the cusp of 1984 - but sooooo few realize our dilemma.

In short - we are f*cked.

Where are our superheros?

I know you exist.

ENLIGHTENMAN - able to bring logic into thought by the sheer force of will and knowledge

BITEWOMAN - able to devolve any issue into digestible 'sound bites' suitable for the average American

The EVERYPERSON - able to sink through the Kevlar-ditto head shielding of large #'s of our population.

[burrowowl]

51. When we realize that

U$ imperialism is the worst terrorism of the last 150 years.
How long will this take. I imagine ecological disaters will have vanquished our EMPIRE before the war on 'terrorism' is 'won'.

[not systems]

53. Emanuel Goldstein will be caught!!!

The answer is never it will be a permanent construct or
about 50 years which counts as forever in a persons life.

When I grew up in the fading construct of the cold war
it seemed that such a large fear based construct was very
useful in controlling society.

This era of terror is just the replacement for the missing fear in
our lives.