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HELP!! I need QUICK information on Black Box Voting

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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 09:42 AM
Original message
HELP!! I need QUICK information on Black Box Voting
Edited on Wed Jul-30-03 09:44 AM by Le Taz Hot
I just got asked to participate in a roundtable discussion on Black Box voting at the CDC (Caifornia Democratic Council) Convention. I've been forwarding various articles on the subject to CDC officials recently and they've decided to address this issue in one of their conferences (hooray!). There's actually a main speaker but, because I've been forwarding the articles (yes, I have read them but don't always understand the complexity), they are asking me to be there to answer questions as well.

I haven't decided whether or not I'm going to do this as I think they need someone FAR more knowledgeable than I am. I THINK I understand the basic problem but I need my fellow DUers to check me on this and fill in the blanks as I'm sure there are a lot of them. Also, if you have any sort of "Reader's Digest" version articles I'd appreciate any links you might have.

One more thing, if there are any DUers who are knowledgeable on the subject and who would be willing to travel to Fresno, CA for the convention and would like to participate, I'll be happy to put you up at my house for a couple of days. The convention is THIS Friday through Saturday but this subject will be addressed on Saturday.

Anyway, my basic understanding is this: The Diebold machines (developed by two brothers -- Republican) are paperless systems and, therefore, provide no audit trails. Additionally, the voting cards given to voters are easily duplicatable which means others with more sinister motives can manufacture these things and vote several times.

Added to that several precincts in 2002 (and 2000?)that were showing a Democracratic advantage in the polls, then, "miraculously" went the Rebublicans' way -- and all these districts had the Diebold machines. Then there's the 18,181 quagmire in which several precincts "magically" produced this number -- however, I'm a little unclear on this.

I KNOW there are a lot of holes in my information here and any help you could give would be appreciated. Unless -- someone wants to come to the convention and participate -- I'll make sure you get in.

Thanks for any help you can give me on this.

P.S. I just went to Bev Harris' website and found lots of information, but my request still stands.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. Kick
*crickets*
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DEMActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. This stuck out....
Edited on Wed Jul-30-03 09:58 AM by DEMActivist
You'll get hammered if you say this:

"provide no audit trails"

They provide what the salesmen CALL an audit trail which is an internal (flash memory) backup copy of the votes. However, after reviewing the source code, I see absolutely NO procedure to even retrieve this flash memory, much less utilize it. In addition, when the election is "reset" flash memory is wiped out and re-programmed.

You are MUCH better off saying "provide no VOTER VERIFIED audit trail."

Here's a great Talking Points memo for your use:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/tpoints.htm
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Oy vey!
See? That's why I asked for oversight on this.

Since this seems to be one of my now infamous "crickets threads" I think I've decided to go ahead and attend this thing. I have 3 days to cram on this (ah, memories of my college days) in between organizing and setting up the Dean table and two last-minute, unexpected out-of-town guests coming today. Ah, what the hell, sleep is for wimps, right? B-)
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DEMActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. LOL! Not a "cricket thread"
More than happy to help. Sent a PM also.
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GAspnes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. the more general the answer, the better
I would stress these points:

1) a closed software system is inherently insecure. Testing is never 100%, and even close code inspection of an open system can miss errors, whether those errors are intentional or not.

2) an electronic-only recording system provides no way of confirming (or re-confirming) the vote counts. Without a paper trail (the Mercuri Method), the count cannot be verified in the case of a challenge. This undercuts the core belief of an election-based society -- that, even if I lost, I can trust the outcome.

3) every financial and commercial system issues a receipt, and who hasn't used their receipt, at one time or another, to correct an error made by one's bank, grocery store or gas station?

4) the variations between projected election outcomes and the DRE-counted outcomes raise the issue of exit-polling and precinct-sampling as vitally necessary to confirm the accuracy of elections.

5) the technical and maintenance issues of a DRE system are an order of magnitude greater than T&M for an optical scanning system. How can we be sure the election was run correctly if the people running the systems don't understand them?

6) electronic data is easily altered (this includes so-called 'audit trails' or 'log files'). A paper trail is the best way to provide insurance against such alteration.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
4. some links
Letter written by DU poster Dagmark for DUers to use as a template:

Please read the following articles that
have come out today, July 24, 2003.
They concern some very serious
questions about the reliability,
accuracy, and fraud potential of the
Diebold voting systems. As a resident
of New York City, and as your
constituent, I demand that our elected
officials make a serious inquiry into
the systems that our state uses for
upcoming elections. I urge expediency
in this regard particularly in light of
the HAVA deadlines that are upon all of
us. These articles represent the very
beginning of what will most certainly
throw the voting delivery systems into
a tailspin. Before we invest in
machines that will undoubtedly be
deemed the single greatest threat to
our democracy, I urge you to get
educated on the facts. And they aren?t
pretty.

The links to the relevant reports are
as follows:

http://avirubin.com/vote.pdf (re Johns
Hopkins analysis and terrifying
conclusions about Diebold systems)

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/24/techno logy/24VOTE.html?
pagewanted=print&position= (NYT
Technology Section ? article)

http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/voting/di eboldftp.html



Some more links:

Salon interview with Bev Harris

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/02/20/voting_machines/print.html

Bev's site:

www.blackboxvoting.com

Two computer scientists who have taken the lead on this issue are David
Dill of Stanford:

http://www.verifiedvoting.org/

and Rebecca Mercuri of Bryn Mawr:

http://www.notablesoftware.com/evote.html

MSNBC article:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/943558.asp?cp1=1
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thanks so much, you guys!
I was hoping SOMEBODY would come through. The articles, along with your suggestions should be invaluable.

Thanks, again! :hi:
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
8. I Just found this link here, will go digging for more
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/votefraud.html
(snip)
ELECTION FRAUD 2002
It's all here, too much to read in one day. I suggest you get a cup of coffee and start out by reading Votescam. Votescam lays out the blueprint that everything else is essentially built apon. Save for future reference and send out to everyone! (snip)
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
9. Here's a link to a company that WANTS to provide a voter-verified..
audit trail.

http://www.aitechnology.com/votetrakker2/

And, they have offices in California.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
10. Maybe this is the type of article w/ links you were looking for
The box shaded green is says a lot

http://www.ecotalk.org/VotingSecurity.htm

THE SECRETIVE WORLD OF VOTING MACHINES
privatizing the vote - sabotaging the system

by Lynn Landes

The most successful coup is one that few notice. Over the last 100 years Americans have slowly but surely surrendered our public voting process to private corporations and their voting machines... in violation of our constitutional right to fair, open, and observable elections. The price paid has been the legitimacy of our democracy.

The use of voting machines should be unconstitutional. Voting machines can be easily rigged and impossible to monitor. Poll watchers have nothing to watch and Federal Observers have nothing to observe. The use of voting machines makes the Voting Rights Act unenforceable. But Congress has failed to act except to pass laws that give billions of dollars to the states to purchase voting machines, while failing to require any mandatory safeguards or standards. Meanwhile, misguided voting rights groups are suing for the right to use the latest most sophisticated computerized voting equipment which are the easiest to rig by the fewest number of technicians.

In the last several decades the rich have gotten richer and the poor poorer. This is not a formula for a conservative groundswell. Yet, both conservative Democrats and Republicans have long enjoyed success at the polls. Have elections in America been rigged to shift power to right wing candidates from both parties, despite the public's support of left-wing causes such as universal health care, quality public education, a clean environment, and a living wage? In the secretive world of voting machines... anything is possible.

See: Nov 12, 2002 American Coup: Mid-Term Election Polls vs Actuals by Alastair Thompson of Scoop
(snip)
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
11. Not all Diebold systems are touch screen
Better check on whether Fresno has optical scan or touch screen. The optical scan machines also have severe security problems -- they fall under this problem: http://www.blackboxvoting.org/access-diebold.htm and, don't know when that meeting is, there is another item to be released soon which affects the optical scan machines.

Good luck!

Bev
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Thanks, Bev . . .
and to all who have contributed articles/suggestions. Bev, I think I'm going to make hard copies of the NYT article and the Johns Hopkins study (and possibly a couple more), a composite URL reference page to your site and the others listed above for anyone who would like to research this issue on their own. Meanwhile, its cram time.

Thanks, guys!

Taz
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
13. OK, this would be a "nevermind."
I just got an e-mail back from the speaker of this workshop and he's totally missing the point -- he's trying to mix in three distinctly differnt issues which clouds up the whole damned thing. Additionally, he was very condescening about Bev Harris as well as with my "credentials." (I was tempted to offer him up copies of my and my husband's college degrees, along with resumes but I thought that might be a bit much.) I wrote him back basically saying I don't think we would be valuable additions to his panel -- oh-so diplomatically, of course.

Thanks guys for your help and I STILL plan on plowing through all the information that everyone kindly provided as I NEED to get up-to-date on this vitally important issue.
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-30-03 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Multiple Storage of the Same Thing is not an Audit Trail
Read below for a good analysis of the HAVA requirment. (Sorry it's not cleaned up yet)

These systems DO NOT produce an AUDIT trail without v-vpb. (Voter-verified ballot)

What they really have is redundant storage, nothing more. Whatever the computer recorded as the vote is all that's there, right or wrong. It cannot serve as an audit trail because it's just a copy of the same information, and IT'S NOT THE ORIGINAL information. The computer transcribed your voting transaction. Without verifying a paper ballot, you cannot verify your vote was cast correctly. You don't even witness your own vote. Without that witness, without an independent source of evidence, there's no way to call what these salespeople promote an audit trail.

By the way, most state officials I have dealt with so far are very careful not so say audit. Just recently had an assistant do that. They can claim backup storage of the vote, but they can't claim auditablility.

THE HAVA REQUIREMENT FOR A VOTER VERIFIED PAPER RECORD

Darryl R. Wold (1)
July 23, 2003

This paper explains that the Help America Vote Act of
2002(2) requires that any voting
system used in an election for Federal office must produce a paper record
of the vote cast by
each voter that has been seen and verified by the voter. HAVA further
requires that this voter
verified paper record be available for a manual audit of the voting system,
and for any recount.

HAVA requires, in section 15481, subdivision (a)(2)(B), that:
“(i) The voting system shall produce a permanent paper record with a
manual audit
capacity for such system.
“(ii) The voting system shall provide the voter with an opportunity
to change the ballot or
correct any error before the permanent paper record is produced.
“(iii) The paper record . . . shall be available as an official
record for any recount . . ..”

Taken together, these provisions requiring a “paper record” that is
to be used for a
“manual audit” for the “voting system” make it apparent that HAVA requires
a paper record that
is seen, verified, and turned in by the voter.

The suggestion has been made, however, that the requirement of a
paper record to be
used for a manual audit can be satisfied by a paper record of votes that is
produced for the first
time after the polls have closed – that is, a printout of what the computer
has stored, and that has
never been seen by the voter.

This interpretation, however, that a post-closing printout of what
the computer has stored
would satisfy HAVA, would permit an audit or a recount to be conducted on
the content of a
computer and not on a contemporaneous paper record of votes cast, and would
make the
requirement for a “manual audit capacity” virtually meaningless.

_______________
1 Mr. Wold served as chairman of the Federal Election Commission
in Washington, D.C., during
2000, and as a Commissioner from 1998 to 2002. He is currently an attorney
in private practice
in Orange County, California. His practice emphasizes political and
election law, including
campaign finance compliance issues, ballot access, and recounts. His
clients include AccuPoll,
Inc., Irvine, California, a manufacturer of electronic voting systems.
2 Help America Vote Act of 2002 (“HAVA” in this paper),
enacted as Public Law Number 107-
252, October 29, 2002, 116 Statutes 1704, and codified at 42 U.S.C. §15301
et seq.. All
references in this paper are to 42 U.S.C. §15481 unless otherwise noted.

page 1
_______________
A paper record consisting solely of ballots printed by the computer
after the closing of
the polls -- and therefore never seen by the voters -- would mean that a
manual audit or recount
would simply amount to reviewing what was stored in the computer. The audit
or recount could
not manually verify that the computer had accurately recorded the voter’s
intent, or had
accurately stored that information, or had accurately printed out that
information. Both an audit
and a recount, therefore, would miss the key element of the system –
whether the voter’s
intention had been accurately recorded.

At most, even a complete manual count of paper ballots printed by the
computer postclosing
could only verify that the computer had accurately tabulated various totals
– that is, that
the computer had “done the math.”

Such an audit or recount could not manually determine whether the
computer had
accurately made a record of voter intent – that is, that the paper record
printed post-closing
actually represented the votes intended to be cast by the voters.

An audit using a record of votes printed post-closing, of course,
could not be considered a
manual audit of the complete voting system – it would be a partial audit,
at best, limited to the
math performed by the computer. It would not be an audit of whether the
voters’ intent was
accurately recorded by the computer – and that is the critical issue.

HAVA’s requirement of a “manual audit” compels the interpretation of
“paper record” as
meaning a record that has been seen and verified by the voter.

First, it is apparent from the common meaning of the words “manual
audit” that HAVA
requires that this audit be conducted by visual examination and counting by
hand, and not by
machine. A common dictionary definition of “manual” applicable to this
context is “worked or
done by hand and not by machine.” The term “audit” applicable to this
context means “a
methodical examination and review.” (Both definition’s from Webster’s Ninth
New Collegiate
Dictionary.)

So far, therefore, we have a requirement for a methodical review by
hand. The next
question is: What is to be reviewed?

HAVA provides that it is the “voting system” that is to be audited
(§15481(a)(2)(B)), and
defines the voting system as including “the total combination” of equipment
that is used “(A) to
define ballots; (B) to cast and count votes; (C) to report or display
election results; and (D) to
maintain and produce any audit trail information . . .” (§15481(b)(1)). In
other words, the system
to be audited is the complete process of casting and counting votes. There
cannot be a “manual”
audit of the casting of votes, of course, unless there is credible and
contemporaneous evidence of
the votes cast that can be reviewed by hand, as a check on the electronic
portion of the system.

Further, the critical issue in any voting system is whether the
system has accurately
reflected voter intent. The question raised in counting the votes in
Florida in the 2000
Presidential election, for instance, was not whether the machines had
accurately done the math –
it was whether the ballots that were counted actually reflected the voters’
intentions. That issue

page 2
_______________
can be determined in an audit of a voting system only by examining what the
voter has seen and
approved -- a paper record reviewed and verified by the voter.

The importance of a paper record verified by the voter is also
emphasized by HAVA’s
use of the term “audit” rather than some other term that would merely
require some lower level
of examination. Requiring an “audit capacity” for the voting system,
including the accurate
recording of the votes cast, clearly contemplates a paper record as the
source document – as the
original record of the voters’ actions – and not a secondary document
produced after the fact as
evidence only of what is in the computer system at that time.

The distinction between an original paper record of an act and
electronic records as
indirect evidence is an important one in the field of auditing, as
indicated by the standards of
auditing practice promulgated by the American Institute of Certified Public
Accountants in its
Statements on Auditing Standards (AICPA Professional Standards, 1998,
American Institute of
Certified Public Accountants, New York). The AICPA’s “Standards of Field
Work” require that
“Sufficient competent evidential matter is to be obtained through
inspection, observation . . . and
confirmations to afford a reasonable basis for an opinion.” (AU §150.02, ¶
3.) Under “Nature
of Evidential Matter” the standards recognize that “Corroborating
evidential matter includes both
written and electronic information” (AU §326.17), and that “In certain
entities, some of the
accounting data and corroborating evidential matters are available only in
electronic form” (AU
§326.18). Thus, the AICPA standards draw a distinction between a source
document that is an
original written record, on one hand, and an electronic record, on the
other. The standards for
field work do not contemplate that an electronic record printed out after
the fact is the same as an
original written record.

In this light, the significance of the HAVA requirement that the
system produce “a
permanent paper record” for use in a “manual audit” or a recount is again
apparent. HAVA does
not provide for a manual audit of an electronic record of votes cast (or of
a printout of an
electronic record, which is the same thing). HAVA requires a permanent
paper record of votes
cast, and that can only be read as meaning a contemporaneous paper record,
that the voter has
seen and verified.

This distinction between an original paper record of a transaction or
an act and electronic
records as indirect evidence of that matter is also found in standards
promulgated for government
auditing promulgated by the Comptroller General (Government Auditing
Standards, 2003
Revision, General Accounting Office, June 2003), which incorporate the
AICPA standards for
field work for financial audits (§4.01). In addition to financial audits,
government audits also
include performance audits. In that context, the field work standards
require that “Sufficient,
competent, and relevant evidence is to be obtained to provide a reasonable
basis for the auditor’s
findings and conclusions” (§7.48). Guidance provided for concluding what
constitutes
“sufficient, competent, and relevant evidence” provides that “Evidence
obtained through the
auditors’ direct physical examination, observation, computation, and
inspection is more
competent than evidence obtained indirectly” (§7.53, ¶ b) and “Examination
of original
documents provides more competent evidence than do copies” (§7.53, ¶ c).
Thus, these
government auditing standards also contemplate that an original written
record is the better
evidence of a fact than indirect evidence or a copy. Applied to the context
of an audit of a voting

page 3
_______________
system, it is apparent that a paper ballot that the voter has seen and
verified is better evidence
than a printout of an electronic record that the voter who purportedly
created the record hasn’t
seen.

In summary, it is apparent that the requirement of HAVA that a voting
system used in a
Federal election provide a paper record for a manual audit can be satisfied
only by a system that
produces a paper record that the voter sees and verifies, and that is
retained by the election
official as the record of votes cast for purposes of an audit and any recount.

This statutory requirement is not a bare legal requirement without
practical significance.
To the contrary, a paper record that has been reviewed and verified by the
voter is an essential
element of a transparent and open voting system. A voter verified paper
record that will be
available for an audit of the system and for any recount greatly reduces
the possibility of fraud
and provides a means of detecting and correcting unintentional error in the
electronic system.
Equally importantly, it assures each voter that the vote has been
accurately cast, and that there is
a paper record of that vote to serve as a check on the electronic system,
and eliminates the
suspicion of impropriety. An open and transparent voting system increases
the voters’
confidence in the system and the public’s trust in the results. It is an
essential element of the
democratic process by which we elect the government of this great republic.

page 4
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