The funny thing about the 60 minutes piece was that it made me like Bush

[oostevo]

more as a person. (I'm sure I'm going to be flamed for this). It seems like Bush has some sort of conscience (he, too, didn't seem the point of more tax cuts).

I had pictured Bush as some evil dictator spewing decisions to help his friends, but now he just seems an incompetent person who lets his cabinet run the show.

(I'm not suggesting that Bush is qualified to run the country, it's just that he's not as evil as I pictured him -- his cabinet, however, is).


(Edit: Instead of "like Bush more as a person" I probably should have said "loathe him less. In my mind they meant the same thing, so feel free the interchange the two in the context of this post).

[grasswire]

1. the buck stops where?

He enjoys the benefits of the office -- ALL the benefits.

He gets off on the power. He gets off on the ego gratification.

The buck stops with him.

[cthrumatrix]

2. I feel sorry for you--- 1,000's of people died...perhaps if you had family

that went to war based on lies and decpetion...and they were killed or injured...you might feel different.

What proof do you need to see that this man mislead americans so hecan "divvy up the oil"

This is disgusting.

[Catfish]

3. I disagree

but don't want to flame you. We all see personality characteristics in a different way. To me laziness and not caring when you're the President of the US is evil. Allowing yourself to be manipulated by a roach like Rove shows great weakness. Again, no offence intended to you.

[theoceansnerves]

4. well

if he's an evil enabler, to me that would make him evil as well.

[Beearewhyain]

5. I think I know what you are saying BUT

incompetence and hubris still equals evil to me.

[kysrsoze]

64. Agreed. Thought it's nice to know he's not QUITE as evil as his cabal

I've always thought he was a complete puppet figurehead, but this confirms it. I think he had good intentions, but was sorrily misguided and I think he realizes that, but is stuck. As disgusting a failure he has been, I think his general lack of deep thought and foresight allowed him to become the token leader of this nation while the completely diabolical bastards who really run this country dictated everything he did. In a small way, I feel sorry for his stupid ass.

If you watch any of the televised speeches, you see he does not fully believe in what he's saying. However, he still sticks to it, so I don't feel sorry for him at all. If he had any guts, he would call out these fuckers for what they really are, fire them all and pledge to get the truth out the US so something like this NEVER happens again..

[PatrickS]

6. Major eye rolling!

:eyes:

[Cha]

7. bush is a

derelict who helped steal an election..that's where the evil started and he helped take us to a bogus Invasion of Iraq that has killed thousands of innocent Iraqis and Hundreds of our Boys and Girls..

ya don't get much more EVIL than that!!!!!

[Cat Atomic]

8. He's another smiling, idiot puppet. Just like Reagan.

He's even got the same puppeteers.

I remember someone on DU once positing that Quayle was originally going to be Reagan v.2.0. He fit the bill. He looked right, and was intensely stupid. But in the end, Quayle wasn't electable, and Jr. took his spot.

I have to say it makes sense.

[kskiska]

42. In the words of Marilyn Quayle…

As Marilyn Quayle bitterly told The Arizona Republic, “the caricature they made of Dan in ‘88 is George W. It’s him. It wasn’t true about Dan. But it is him. ... A guy that never accomplished anything. ... Everything he got, Daddy took care of.”

[Grins]

75. Link?

New one to me. Got a link?

[Blue_Roses]

60. Dan Quayle

ROFL...what a complete and total boob! Lloyd Bentson put him in his place during the '88 debate when Quayle tried to compared himself to Jack Kennedy--aka:my sig line--

It was great and Quayle looked like he was gonna cry after Bentson scolded him!

[kentuck]

9. But in the final analysis....

he decided to be evil and pass the tax cut? That doesn't matter?

[Individualist]

10. Do you also like him

for ignoring numerous warnings prior to 9/11/01 and allowing all that death and destruction to occur?

[liberalhistorian]

40. Not to mention

acting like a total coward on 9/11, and continuing to sit and read a book to children in a classroom for another 45 minutes as the towers were burning and people were dying.

[madrchsod]

11. he`s their new

ronnie reagan-all show-although ronnie had more charm and could speak alot better....

[T Bone]

43. Don't forget Reagan wasn't afraid of the horses on his ranch either

like *Dumbwon is. You will never see Junior on a horse on his "ranch".

[ClintonTyree]

12. He's a sock puppet..............

it didn't make me like him any better at all. It diminished my view, if that's possible.

[Logansquare]

15. Now we know whos hand is up his ass

although it wasn't hard to guess

[oostevo]

46. Hey! Sock puppets are people too!

(No, I'm not really being serious)

[tinrobot]

13. Just say no...

If he felt that strong about the tax cut... he would have just said 'no.'

All it proves is that - in addition to being incompetent, he's also spineless.

[teach1st]

14. I'm with oostevo

Bush may have shown a conscience, at least in that instance. I can picture Rove whispering the mantra to him, and as I construct this picture, I too can feel sorry for Bush, because he appears pathetic and controlled.

This does not absolve President Bush from blame for using deception to push us into a needless war as other posts seem to suggest. It simply shows that Bush may not be the ultimate villian here.

[Catfish]

18. The buck stops with him

I think his weakness that allows him to be controlled is villiany.

[salinen]

20. Then you must think Hitler

was cute. (more for laughs than a cut)

[teach1st]

31. Cute?

Well, Hitler's mustache was kind of cool, but his hair - my god!

But I don't think Bush is cute at all. And acknowledging a spark of humanity in the man isn't tantamount to being a Bush groupie.

I think the evidence is pointing more and more toward Bush as a puppet for the real evil dudes. He has no clue - they apparently even read him the newspaper. That's why his questioning the tax cut is so pointed.

Democrats would do well to focus their attention on the men behind the curtain.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

47. Bush? Humanity? Remember Karla Faye Tucker?

She was put to death when Dubya was Governor of Texas, and he made fun of her on Larry King. She begged for her life and he mimicked her in a cruel and nasty way.

Humanity my ass...

[kentuck]

26. Unless, of course, he was thinking as he usually thinks....

which is what might politically advantageous for George W Bush. He's a shrewd politician, in my opinion, and I think he was thinking of the political consequences, rather than as a compassionate conservative with a conscience. We could ask Karla Faye Tucker her opinion but she's no longer around.

[mike1963]

38. His family history belies your excusal for his behavior. Look it up,

it's a farrago of international intrigue. Whether or not W is in the 'loop' is actually inconsequential, their past speaks for itself.

[philosophie_en_rose]

44. It doesn't matter.

You know Adolf Hitler was really nice to his puppies. He had some sort of artistic side. But none of that matters at all.

I don't care if George W. Bush is sad about 911. He isn't the only one. However, his cronyism, corruption, and self-serving exploitation of that tragedy overwhelms anything about him that provokes pity.

[alfredo]

16. Did he care about the middle class, or was his concern about re electionq

when he asked about another tax cut for the rich? So don't assume he was thinking about us when he asked. We don't know what (if anything) is in his heart. the telling part was when Rove bullied him into compliance.

He is a useful idiot.

[maddogesq]

17. Yeah, but at least Reagan could speak a little better.

And that's not saying too much.

If I was forced to listen to two hours of speeches by Jr. or Reagan, I'd pick Ronny hands down.

I was just giddy after watching 60 Minutes. This stuff is just mouth watering de-li-ci-ous!

[AG78]

19. It's always been...

about the people around Bush. Bush was simply the face to get Perle, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the rest back into the White House. None of them could've been elected themselves. So they get a familiar name to run for them, do some dirty work, and bang, they're all back in power. And I can't see any way they'd let go of it now. Even with this "new" information on 60 minutes, these people have worked far too hard to get back to where they are. Their plans are far too big(much bigger than Iraq) to stop after 4 years.

They picked Bush, Bush didn't pick them.

[Cat Atomic]

29. "They picked Bush, Bush didn't pick them."

Well put. I couldn't agree with you more.

[Carni]

21. Not a flame..... BUT

Can I have some of what you've been smoking?

[Lars39]

22. Where's oostevo? Did he desert his thread?

[acmavm]

23. No way. Bush is stupid, but he's not that stupid that he doesn't know

right from wrong. He is a full accomplice in all the evil perpetrated by this administration. In fact, with all his spewage about Christian values, concern for America, and crap, the very fact that he's gone along and been a front man for a bunch of psychotics is absolutely immoral and obscene. IGNORANCE IS NOT AN EXCUSE.

[glarius]

24. He knew more tax cuts for the rich would not make HIM look good

THAT'S why he didn't think they were a good idea...Don't fool yourself into thinking he was concerned about the little guy...He's just very cunning...not smart...but cunning and knew that he would look like he was favouring the rich with more tax cuts....IMO

[Junkdrawer]

25. Red alert. Red alert. Damage control team to the web.

:evilgrin:

[cthrumatrix]

30. LOL -- exactly what I thought 1st minute .... they are desparate

[oostevo]

37. No kidding.

Perhaps I shouldn't have posted this ...

I didn't mean to suggest that I like Bush, but that I think Bush is less evil than I originally thought. Perhaps he really is too stupid to know the difference.

[DrBB]

27. Can I suggest you try despising him rather than liking or disliking him?

To despise someone is different from hating or disliking. It's a moral judgment--an informed contempt for this person as a moral being.

He is the tool of forces more powerful than him. He has allowed himself to be made into such a tool. He has allowed himself to be used as a figurehead by people who know far more than he does and who rely on his ignorance.

In fact, he is proud of his ignorance. And this is yet another reason to despise him. He was given opportunities denied to many vastly more deserving and hardworking and gifted people, entirely on the basis of his family name--well, perhaps that's just the way of the world, and not worthy of contempt in and of itself. But what IS worthy of contempt is the fact that he SQUANDERED those opportunities. In fact, he is PROUD of having squandered them. Instead of working as hard as he could to enrich his intellect to the limit of its modest capacities--perhaps learning some humility and respect toward those of greater ability and fewer family resources than himself--he goofed off and did the least he could get away with to get through. And he has shown nothing but contempt for "nuance" and genuine expertise for the rest of his life.

Similar points could be made about his "military" career and his "business" career, of course.

So try it--it's easy. You don't have to dislike the guy. Just despise him.

edit: clarity, emphasis

[NV1962]

71. Excellent separation of dung and manure

(No, seriously - I really like your clearly explained separation of moral and humane judgment)

But in the specific case of B* I see a rather homogeneous pile of s*it that I'm loathe to even consider splicing.

His position and his responsibilities make him accountable to very high standards, and he fails them miserably - not to mention the people in whose interest he presumably governs. He's not a neighbor, not just "a guy" who can be liked or disliked, have his flaws and charms - he is more than anything supposed to be the President.

His failure in that quality, acquired on top of the boldfaced, deliberate serial waste of opportunities you mentioned (which speak to his character) make him profoundly despised.

Yes, Bush flush on Nov 2.

[Eloriel]

28. I can assure you -- he has NO conscience

And IMO you only have to go back and look at Carla Faye Tucker, and his answer to Tucker Carlson about her, to get that. But there are many other examples. You could also consult Mark Crispin Miller's book, The Bush Dyslexicon
The ONLY calculus going on his mind with those questions was a political one. Karl Rove runs the Presidency to the extent that he chooses what POLICIES get implemented and suggested purely on the basis of political calculus.

There is not one thing that this administration has EVER done that benefits the people or the country first, and not even (that I can think of) in any way but peripherally, and usually not even that.

[Lars39]

33. Hi, Eloriel !

You're keen insight has been greatly missed. Hope you're back for a while. :hi:

[Eloriel]

41. Thank you very much, Lars

Yeah, I'm obviously back. Watch out. ;-)

Eloriel

[nolabels]

59. Hell I thought they were all just plain EVIL, you mean to say that........

they plan some of this stuff.< sarcasm > Really though,I thought the US government was kind of corrupt and evil before I came to DU but now I know for a fact it is way beyond that point. The only part I dread but know to be a fact is the laws on karma and how they work them selves through . Anybody thathas studied anything completely knows about cause and effect and the unobservable and how it effects things out of Human control.

This is kind thing that * will never probably ever understand and that's the kind of thing everybody should stop kidding themselves about. He won't get it, so don't waste too much of your thinking it could change. Spendding a lot of emotional baggage on the dude will onlny get you more baggage. Work around the guy it will be to everyones advantage including your own

[Th1onein]

32. Think about this, though:

All the time that Bush was telling us that the tax cuts were to help "all Americans," he KNEW he was lying to us. Even he admitted this, when he said: but the first cuts went to the rich; shouldn't we give some to the middle this time? And I sure didn't see that he fought too hard to keep the last round of tax cuts from going to the rich, as well. Stick to the principle, my butt.

And this crap that Stahl put over about "Wow" on the 8% growth in GDP.......who does she think she's kidding? We've heard this propaganda before......from the Bush administration. When you starve an economy for long enough and then you give it a little air (by increasing government spending, as any first year economics student knows boosts the economy), of course you're going to have a (last) gasp for air.

[governmentgoodies]

34. Bush doesn't care about anything but...

:bounce:

...the Ark of the Covenant! I've laid it all out earlier!

gg

[Pale Blue Dot]

35. Bush is the Goddamned President of the United States

I'm sorry, but this pisses me off. If Bush had ANY kind of conscience, he COULD, and WOULD, put a stop to all of this. In fact, he may be the ONLY one who can.

This is like feeling sorry for the pal of the bully who does nothing while his "friend" is beating someone to a pulp.

I'm sorry, but bullshit.

[blondeatlast]

36. He is the pRESIDENT, fercrispssakes. The buck stops with him.

He SHOULD be able to tell Rove to stick it, but if he can't, no effing sympathy.

He is the PRESIDENT!

[MoonRiver]

39. The impression I got was that he was just too stupid to really know

what happened with the first tax break. Maybe he was freaking out that the middle class would rebel against him in'04. Who knows. Bottom line is that he's a mass murdering war criminal whose destroying our environment, and wrecking our children's futures.

[Kinkistyle]

45. The guy is a huge jerk

That he is clueless doesn't make him any more likeable to me. He is reknowned for being abrasive and bitchy. He makes up "nicknames", which is actually a form of bullying (we all have experienced name-calling back in grade school), he has no respect nor patience, and angers easily (witness the bitchiness he displays when asked a tough question by reporters). Exactly the kind of person I dislike in life.

The fact that he is stupid makes me sympathize with him a bit (its not his fault he is retarded), but his personality still stinks.

[Catfish]

49. I don't think he's stupid

as in lacking the mental capacity to understand. I think it's willful ignorance and laziness and arrogance. He sees no reason to try to understand anything.

[Catherine Vincent]

52. Yup.

INTELLECTUAL LAZINESS is George W. Bush.

[BiggJawn]

48. Bush is like the well-liked simpleton who let his family burn up in a fire

Yeah, I hear you. Most people still think Shrub is the guy they'd like to sit down and have a brewski with. Just a few problems with that, though...
The guy supposedly doesn't drink anymore (S'Yeah, Right) and...
He's still responsible for thousands of deaths.

"Yeah, I know he didn't go out and turn in the fire alarm,. but he ain't all bad. He's pretty likable once y'get to know him..."

[Kathy in Cambridge]

50. Bush's Meanness Shows Thru: link to Karla Faye tucker Example

http://davidicke.www.50megs.com/icke/magazine/vol8/news/bushpottymouth.html

Any Texan on DU can tell you at length that Bush has no humanity underneath his 'folksy charm'.

[Rattlesnake]

51. Bush isn't good as a person or as a dictator...erm, president.

I have yet to see a good quality in him.

[rumguy]

53. how can you say that...O'Neill portrays him as a bullying ass!

What's to like about that?

[ComerPerro]

54. Well, here's the problem

He is not the harmless idiot they make him out to be.

He is a moron, yes. And alot of the things happening currently are the decisions of the people around him.

BUT he is supposedly running the show, he gets credit for "success", and he is enjoying the benifits.

So fuck Bush.

[Cleita]

55. You always have indicated that you like Bush.

eom

[Kathy in Cambridge]

56. Which Begs The Question

Why He Likes Hanging Around a DEMOCRATIC forum?

[oostevo]

62. Who, Me?

I have never said that I hate Bush because I do not.

I loathe "it." I use 'it' purposefully, because I don't think it deserves to be able to call itself human.

I have never liked Bush, but this picture painted of him lessened my loathing of him just slightly. After all, think of why we dislike executing mentally incapacitated people.

[1songbird]

57. He's aiding and abetting criminals.

This man is complicit in aggregious wrong doing. He knows it yet he continues to go along with it. To whom much is given much is required. He was given the Presidency of the United States. He will be judged harshly according to his own Christian beliefs at the end. If Hell is anything like Dante's inferno then we should all feel sorry for him.

[dansolo]

58. It only showed that he was clueless

Ignorance is not the same as empathy.

[spanone]

I feel better know the president is stupid.

[Blue_Roses]

61. It is sad that a man

who is so clueless on how to be President is being led around by "advisors." Karen Hughes even once admitted on camera that when Bush was approached to run for President, he looked at Karen Hughes and laughed--yep--in fact they both laughed.

[Ms. Clio]

63. not me I loathe him more (if that's humanly possible)

He is such a bullying, mean-spirited jackass--his nasty public remarks masquerading as jokes about O'Neil perfectly illustrated what a vicious petty little man he truly is.

[jsw_81]

65. I agree

The 60 Minutes piece made Bush sound like a powerless, ceremonial figurehead, a lot like the Emperor of Japan or the Queen of England. It's actually kind of pathetic to have this phony "president" who "won" a phony election being ordered (by Cheney) to start wars so they can look for phony WMD's.

And it's just one more reason to vote Democratic in November. Can you imagine a President Dean or President Edwards getting ordered around by their advisors? I can't.

[Gemini Cat]

66. Oh Puuuulease!

Being stupid is no excuse for the horrid things he has done not only to the American people, but to the world itself. He is a stain of the Americans and that stain will continue to spread to the rest of the world.
He may only be considered a useful idiot to the PNAC and the rest of those evil assholes, however, he is a very willing useful idiot!


:dem:

[hellhathnofury]

67. Harry Truman wouldn't like that.

[onecitizen]

68. Please tell me how people.........

can be soooooo duped by this guy? Seriously, why would you EVER believe ANYTHING that little swine would say? I've heard people say: I like him as a person and would probably like to have a beer with him. That just floors me. So, I am being sincere when I ask this question. What about him makes some people feel good about him?

[NJCher]

69. the whole thing just makes me feel sad

I think I understand where oostevo is coming from although I would not go so far as to say it made me like him. This is a moment where we get to peak through the window and see that all we thought was indeed true. He really is a puppet. He really is manipulated by evil men behind the curtain and we even got an exchange--verbatim--with Karl Rove and Dick Cheney. This is an amazing revelation and it gives us plenty of material for further insights on how things really work in the WH.

There was another moment when I felt--I want to say "pity" but that's not really it--for him. It was prior to 9/11 and he was speaking in Tennessee and was booed. He responded to the boos with "thank yeh, thank yeh." This really was a sad moment. It just said to me how terribly, how woefully in over his head he was. The man did not even have the presence to know how to respond to a "boo."

Whatever his motivation was for thinking of the middle class for a tax cut, it certainly shows he barely has a grasp of what's going on. It's just terribly, terribly sad.


Cher

[NJCher]

70. I would also add...

I think it makes me sad because I so believe that every life has its purpose. Everyone is here to fulfill a mission. How pitiful that this individual is so far from fulfilling anything positive or meaningful. And worst of all is the fact that his failure to grasp a meaningful purpose has led thousands and thousands to death and many, many more thousands to a life haunted my memories of war and a lifetime of handicap and disfigurement.


Cher

[rman]

72. In the end he did "stick to the principle, didn't waver"

If Bush has some sort of conscience, it didn't cause him to do the right thing.
Apparently he doesn't have enough of a conscience.

So what's there to like?

[BigBadDaddy-O]

73. So you are surprised that Bush is a Cheney B!tch?

Um... So would that make Cheney Satan's b!tch?:evilgrin:

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

74. That's what people mean when they say "the banality of evil"

There are dead and terribly wounded and limbless Americans and Iraqis because he decided to go to war based on what his advisors told him. They all thought they were doing the right thing and they still think that. They are human beings who try to do what they think is right, not fictional characters that do things because they want to be evil.

But doing what they thought was the right thing has resulted in horrible consequences. We probably haven't even seen all the consequences yet.

Bush's advisors have him thinking he is doing the normal things that the president is supposed to do. In his mind, it is obvously all about acting tough and frightening the other countries and the U.S. will triumph. The media is putting him on a pedestal because there seems to be a consensus among some of the elites that complex thinking of any kind is bad and that mindless action and black and white thinking is morally superior.

But anyone with common sense can see that they are making horrible mistakes and destroying people because they are not thinking or acting based on reason or facts or true morality, but on their fantasies and a false morality based on their ideology.

A lot of it comes down to the fact that they are not really tough, but chickenhawks and bullies, instead. That's become the face of the most powerful country in the world and there will be worse to come from it before the unqualified prince is off the stage.

If you were sitting in Iraq right now worrying about getting your ass shot off, or some Iraqi parent with a dead baby, would you still think, "Well he's not such a bad guy. I guess he meant well when he got me into this." ?

[opihimoimoi]

76. Bush & Co use delusional rationalization in their approach to things

such as the Iraqi War. IE the WMD and a quick change to Freedom, "We gonna take out Saddam and give the People their Freedom", after no WMD was found.

The Human Mind is a sorry thing, especially when bent on Fanaticism and Mysticism. We are full of OLD BRAIN which is Emotionalism allowing for the preceeding.

Logic, Math, Reason, Sanity, (all NEW BRAIN STUFF) is missing from our Society's Equation in general, more so in elections where the main flaw comes to the fore, EMOTION, which as we all know, OVER RIDES everything else; "I know X is a better man but I gonna vote for B cause Its my gut feeling"

Madness rules until we rid ourselves of this Fraud of a Prez. He is embarrassing. Go into any Pub anywhere in the world and tell them you are from Texas and you love George Bush.......

Be prepared for a fight