Torture Sanctioned by Pentagon Appointees ((neo-con Doug Feith))

[Tinoire]

Bar Association: Torture Sanctioned by Pentagon Appointees
Salon is reporting that a report compiled by the Committee on International Law of the New York City Bar Association has found that the American military's treatment of detainees and prisoners of war in Afghanistan, Cuba and Iraq violates international law — and the compilers of the report say that the techniques employed by interrogators at prisons such as Abu Ghraib were "sanctioned by Pentagon political appointees."

Joe Conason of Salon reports that Scott Horton, a partner at Patterson, Belknap, Webb and Tyler and chair of the Committee on International Law was told by "senior" members of the Judge Advocate General Corps that high ranking political appointees were behind the abuse. Says Conason:

http://www.warblogging.com/

Lack of protection

<snip>

Indeed, Horton says that the JAG officers specifically warned him that Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith,one of the most powerful political appointees in the Pentagon, had significantly weakened the military's rules and regulations governing prisoners of war. The officers told Horton that Feith and the Defense Department's general counsel, William J. Haynes II, were creating "an atmosphere of legal ambiguity" that would allow mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan.


Douglas Feith, President Bush's Undersecretary of Defense for Policy — and number three man at the Pentagon — reportedly summed up Protocol One of the Geneva Conventions of 1977 as "law in the service of terrorism".

In the past, Conason writes, all interrogations conducted by military personnel were monitored by a member of the Judge Advocate General corps from behind a two-way mirror. All interrogations were monitored, and the JAG officer was "emplowered to stop any misconduct". But senior Pentagon officials removed that requirement. :wow: Not only did JAG officers no longer monitor interrogations, but private military contractors were allowed to conduct interrogations.

<snip>

After hearing the complaints of the JAG officers, Horton and his bar colleagues wrote to Haynes and the CIA's general counsel in an effort to clarify U.S. policy on the treatment and interrogation of detainees. Those inquiries, he recalls, "were met with a firm brushoff. We then turned to senators who had raised the issue previously, and assisted their staff in pursuing the issue directly with the Pentagon. These inquiries met with a similar brushoff." The Bush administration wanted no meddling by human rights lawyers as it brought democracy and human rights to the benighted region.

<snip>

Horton says that career military officers at the Pentagon were "greatly upset" by what they regarded as the deliberate destruction of traditions and methods that have long protected soldiers as well as civilians. Those officers, and others who may have evidence to offer, are obviously reluctant to step forward and speak because they fear reprisal from the Pentagon and the White House. They have been instructed not to talk to anyone about these issues. It is to be hoped that in the investigations to come -- whether or not Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld and Undersecretary Feith keep their jobs -- those conscientious officers will be able to tell what they know about the decisions that led to this national disaster.


<snip>

http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2004/05/07/rights/index.html

They're going down. The entire house of cards is CRASHING down.

[proud patriot]

1. Oh Lordy

:wow:

[kalian]

2. I'd REALLY like to speak my mind....

but some fellow DUers will crawl out from the I/P forums....

[Tinoire]

13. The apologists you are thinking of don't dare right now.

You'll only find the level-headed Israel supporters who care for peace and justice weighing in. The ones that get "aroused" at the slaughter of the Arabs dare not say "boo" because their apologetics are too distasteful and transparent for people right now.

The entire Likudnik/PNAC house of cards is crashing down with the crimes exposed for all to see and judge.

[Cassandra]

38. I know that you feel that this has everything to do with Israel...

and maybe for Feith it does, but there is nothing in the belief in the Jewish state's existance that automatically links to a preference for torture. This action from Feith is incredibly stupid and disgusting, as well as demoralizing and dangerous for our troops. If Iraqis wanting to surrender or cooperate see that it is dangerous to do so, they will fight on and more of our troops will die.

[Tinoire]

45. "Let America take its cues from Israel regarding torture"

Well. I'm glad we agree that there's nothing inherent in the Jewish state, as you call it, to link to a preference for torture. What is unfortunate for apologists is that we have an entire forum where the practice of torture is well documented even as the issue of torture in Israel is confined, contained & kept away from the general public. It is not in the belief of the "Jewish State" (your words) but it is certainly in its practice. You'd be a LOT better off using "hard-right Zionists" because the definitions are beginning to get so muddled with this twisted web of apologetics that soon ignorant people will once again be blaming "the Jews". My only hope to prevent that is people like Indiana Green, Darranar, Must-B-Free, Hedda-Foil and a ton of others here who have the good sense to disassociate themselves from this madness and say NO, not in my name just like these guys who are screaming "Not in Our Name" at the top of their lungs. The world has already turned against Israel because of its excesses; I will not quietly allow it to turn against America; it may be too late, but I'll give it to my dying breath.

You'll excuse me if I am not buying the sudden concern for our troops. 2 years ago was the time to speak up for them- even 1 year ago, even 6 damn months ago but now that the pictures are out about what many of them have been turned into, there's all of a sudden "concern for the lives of our troops"; it's like the sudden concern the hard-core Israeli Right is having for the Palestinian children- a joke. This is not the IDF. This is the US military. If you're that concerned for them plant a sign in front of your yard and start pushing for "Bring the Troops Home NOW".

Are you pretending there weren't hooplas of joy for the Iraq invasion in I/P? Every justification, every subterfuge was used to explain why it was moral for America to slay the children of Amalek. Oh and Cassandra, just which day was the war launched? Wasn't it during Purim, which celebrates the slaying of the children of Amalek? "Stomping out Haman as it is crudely called. Well we're stomping them out now top the great satisfaction of certain people. Just step your dainty feet into the Masada 2000 forums or Little Green Footballs to see the absolute glee at how well we are humiliating & "stomping out Haman". I have never in my life seen such an exquisite appreciation for torture as on those sites.

Please. Yank your head above ground, stop wringing your hands, and pay a little more attention to what the Israeli Left has been saying for years.





War Launched to Protect Israel - Bush Adviser

Emad Mekay

Iraq under Saddam Hussein did not pose a threat to the United States but it did to Israel, which is one reason why Washington invaded the Arab country, according to a speech made by a member of a top-level White House intelligence group.

WASHINGTON, Mar 29 (IPS) - IPS uncovered the remarks by Philip Zelikow, who is now the executive director of the body set up to investigate the terrorist attacks on the United States in September 2001 -- the 9/11 commission -- in which he suggests a prime motive for the invasion just over one year ago was to eliminate a threat to Israel, a staunch U.S. ally in the Middle East.

Zelikow's casting of the attack on Iraq as one launched to protect Israel appears at odds with the public position of President George W. Bush and his administration, which has never overtly drawn the link between its war on the regime of former president Hussein and its concern for Israel's security.

<snip>

”Why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us? I'll tell you what I think the real threat (is) and actually has been since 1990 -- it's the threat against Israel,” Zelikow told a crowd at the University of Virginia on Sep. 10, 2002, speaking on a panel of foreign policy experts assessing the impact of 9/11 and the future of the war on the al-Qaeda terrorist organization.

”And this is the threat that dare not speak its name, because the Europeans don't care deeply about that threat, I will tell you frankly. And the American government doesn't want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell,” said Zelikow.

<snip>

The statements are the first to surface from a source closely linked to the Bush administration acknowledging that the war, which has so far cost the lives of nearly 600 U.S. troops and thousands of Iraqis, was motivated by Washington's desire to defend the Jewish state.

<snip>

Even though members of the 16-person PFIAB come from outside government, they enjoy the confidence of the president and have access to all information related to foreign intelligence that they need to play their vital advisory role.

<snip>

http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=23083

=======================

The war on Iraq:
Conceived in Israel

By STEPHEN J. SNIEGOSKI

In a lengthy article in The American Conservative criticizing the rationale for the projected U.S. attack on Iraq, the veteran diplomatic historian Paul W. Schroeder noted (only in passing) "what is possibly the unacknowledged real reason and motive behind the policy — security for Israel." If Israel's security were indeed the real American motive for war, Schroeder wrote,

It would represent something to my knowledge unique in history. It is common for great powers to try to fight wars by proxy, getting smaller powers to fight for their interests. This would be the first instance I know where a great power (in fact, a superpower) would do the fighting as the proxy of a small client state.

To unearth the real motives for the projected war on Iraq, one must ask the critical question: How did the 9/11 terrorist attack lead to the planned war on Iraq, even though there is no real evidence that Iraq was involved in 9/11? From the time of the 9/11 attack, neoconservatives, of primarily (though not exclusively) Jewish ethnicity and right-wing Zionist persuasion, have tried to make use of 9/11 to foment a broad war against Islamic terrorism, the targets of which would coincide with the enemies of Israel.

Although the term neoconservative is in common usage, a brief description of the group might be helpful. Many of the first-generation neocons originally were liberal Democrats, or even socialists and Marxists, often Trotskyites. They drifted to the right in the 1960s and 1970s as the Democratic Party moved to the antiwar McGovernite left. And concern for Israel loomed large in that rightward drift. As political scientist Benjamin Ginsberg puts it:

One major factor that drew them inexorably to the right was their attachment to Israel and their growing frustration during the 1960s with a Democratic party that was becoming increasingly opposed to American military preparedness and increasingly enamored of Third World causes . In the Reaganite right's hard-line anti-communism, commitment to American military strength, and willingness to intervene politically and militarily in the affairs of other nations to promote democratic values (and American interests), neocons found a political movement that would guarantee Israel's security.

<snip>

http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/snieg_conc1.htm

==========================================
Let America take its cues from Israel regarding torture

It's not often that we agree with the Harvard prof. And he's let us know how much he loves us, too. But in this case, his views deserve an airing on our pages.

By Alan Dershowitz

http://www.jewishworldreview.com -- IF AMERICAN law enforcement officers were ever to confront the law school hypothetical case of the captured terrorist who knew about an imminent attack but refused to provide the information necessary to prevent it, I have absolutely no doubt that they would try to torture the terrorists into providing the information.


Moreover, the vast majority of Americans would expect the officers to engage in that time-tested technique for loosening tongues, notwithstanding our unequivocal treaty obligation never to employ torture, no matter how exigent the circumstances. The real question is not whether torture would be used ... it would ... but whether it would be used outside of the law or within the law.

<snip>

No democracy, other than Israel, has ever employed torture within the law.

<snip>

The Israeli Supreme Court left open the possibility, however, that in an actual "ticking bomb'' case ... a situation in which a terrorist refused to divulge information necessary to defuse a bomb that was about to kill hundreds of innocent civilians ... an agent who employed physical pressure could defend himself against criminal charges by invoking "the law of necessity.''

<snip>

But inevitably one will arise, and we should be prepared to confront it. It is important that a decision be made in advance of an actual ticking bomb case about how we should deal with this inevitable situation.

<snip>

The suspect would be given immunity from prosecution based on information elicited by the torture. The warrant would limit the torture to nonlethal means, such as sterile needles, being inserted beneath the nails to cause excruciating pain without endangering life.

<snip>

So, let the debate begin.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0102/torture.asp

===============================

Dershowitz has authored various articles and papers on the issue of using torture to coerce prisoners. In the Jewish World Review of Jan.30 ,2002 , his article, “Let America Take Its Cues From Israel Regarding Torture,” stated, “No democracy, other than Israel, has ever employed torture within the law.” In a Nov.8 , 2001 editorial in the Los Angeles Times titled “Is There a Torturous Road to Justice?” Dershowitz said: “Any interrogation technique, including the use of truth serum, even torture, is not prohibited. All that is prohibited is the introduction of evidence of the fruits of such techniques in a criminal trial against the person on whom the techniques were used.” And Dershowitz was quoted by the Kurt Nimmo blog site as stating to a September 2001 group at a Jewish community center in St. Louis, Missouri in a speech on torture, “Society needs to be protected from immigrants and other undesirables.” Dershowitz has also been quoted advocating shoving sterile hypodermic needles under prisoners’ fingernails and says, “Pain is not the worst thing in the world. You get over it.”

Just how pervasive is the Dershowitz argument in American political discourse? The Abu Gharib torture incidents and photographs have opened a sore wound for America in confronting this issue. Years ago, a conservative US senator and presidential candidate made famous the statement, “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.” It appears that many in American society today are becoming advocates of that idea. Some may argue that individuals such as Dershowitz have no direct effect on real policy. However, the more often these views are stated as normal, the less opposition they seem to generate.

British author, Oliver Poole was embedded with American troops during the invasion of Iraq. In his book, “Black Knights”, he says that the Americans that he was with considered the Iraqis “barely human”. They put a much higher priority on the protection of American soldiers than the protection of Iraqi civilians. And American journalist, Joseph Farah, recently urged us “to make an example” out of Fallujah. “We may need to flatten Fallujah,” Farah said, “We may need to destroy it. We may need to grind it, pulverize it and salt the soil.” Farah and Dershowitz ultimately often influence their readers. As Pogo, the cartoon character once said, “We have met the enemy and he is us.”

Gee does that part remind you of another army?

<snip>

Various individuals working for US military contractors, CACI and Titan were cited in the Taguba report. Those individuals included Steven Stephanowicz and John Israel. CACI is a huge private military contractor for the US military. It provides information and translation relation services to the armed forces. CACI has strong links to Israel as well. The CEO of CACI, J.P. “Jack” London was awarded the Albert Einstein Technology Award by the Jerusalem Fund of Aish HaTorah which was presented by Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz in January. At that juncture, CACI proudly announced that as a provider of information technology to help fight the war on terrorism, it was helping to transform the Middle East “from a source of global instability into a peaceful, stable region.” London visited Israel earlier this year with a delegation for a homeland security conference. Hersh in a previous article pointed out that during the course of the war in Iraq, a stronger Israeli-US alliance has been taking covert shape. Hersh stated “Israeli commandos and intelligence units have been working closely with their American counterparts at the Special Forces training base at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and in Israel to help them prepare for operations in Iraq. Israeli commandos are expected to serve as ad-hoc advisers — again, in secret— when full-field operations begin”. The Guardian newspaper has also reported on Israeli military activities with American forces training for and based in Iraq. It also appears that Israeli interrogation/torture methods used on the Palestinians for many years might also have found their way into Iraqi prison camps.

<snip>

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=9500&TagID=2

================

Joe Ryan, in posting his diary on a website stated, “I went through the DOD Strategic Debriefer Course, Israeli Interrogation Course, and the SCAN Course.” ((See post 39))

===============

The Men from JINSA

========

Brigadier General Says Israel is the problem not Iraq

Questions and Answers about Iraq and Israel

by James J. David a retired Brigadier General
Jan 7, 2003

(James J. David is a retired Brigadier General and a graduate of the U.S.Army's Command and General Staff College, and the National Security Course, National Defense University, Washington, DC. He served as a Company Commander with the 101st Airborne Division in the Republic of Vietnam in 1969 and 1970 and also served nearly 3 years of Army active duty in and around the Middle East from 1967-1969.)

http://www.nowarforisrael.com/Brigadier%20General.htm

[seemslikeadream]

46. It's gonna be ride to remember

isn't it Tinoire? You're incredible. Time to delete?

[Tinoire]

47. Lol.. & What a sad ride

A bunch of fools, the current US & Israeli administrations, riding the world into madness.

But everyone just "sees no evil & hears no evil". Where the hell are people like Elie Weisel during all of this?

Where's the ADL?

They don't care.

Incredible ride. Hang on to yur hate because the next step is a nuclear disaster. Both Sharon and Bush need to be stopped (as well as their ideas) because their fingers have been given access to those little red buttons that can blow up the entire world.

[Tinoire]

48. Shalom: Iraq war will be good for Israel

Shalom: Iraq war will be good for Israel
Minister of Finance Silvan Shalom tells CNN: There is no US pressure about loan guarantees.
Stella Korin-Lieber 3 Feb 03 10:43


“Immediately after the elections, we’ll activate a growth-encouragement plan, by cutting taxes and investing in infrastructures, while waiting for war in Iraq. Everything will be better after the war,” Minister of Finance Silvan Shalom today told CNN today.

<snip>

As for the rising deficit, Shalom told “Globes”, “Even top economists say that in time of war, whether internal or against terrorism, the deficit cannot be reduced below 3%. We’re going to reduce the deficit with the intention of strengthening stability, while simultaneously achieving growth by cutting taxes and investing massively in infrastructure, on the condition that the work is only done by Israelis.” ((Gee, sounds just like Cheney & Halliburton))

<snip>


http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=658001&fid=942

[PaDUer]

17. You know what...

you should "speak your mind" because there's tons of other forums that are doing just that. Plus, there's other people who read this forum and might rely on this forum for the facts and that the people are aware. We can't remain silent as they'd want. The entire world is watching to see what the people are going to say and do and if the people let this go as things in the past have gone, the citizens are permitting these actions to continue.

[mike_c]

3. "law in the service of terrorism...."

We need a spittle-flying screaming ground pounding anger emoticon!!

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[maddezmom]

4. thanks for the link, Tinoire

the walls are coming down...more leaks every day, every hour, every minute.

[tedzbear]

5. Here's another damaging story...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11017-2004May8.html

Rumsfield and his minions are toast.

:nuke:

[Tinoire]

6. Thanks! Posting an excerpt in case these stories start "disappearing"

Thanks!

Pentagon Interrogation Guidelines Eyed in Prison Scandal
U.S. Officials OK'ed Rules in 2003 for Guantanamo Bay Detainees
By Dana Priest and Joe Stephens
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, May 8, 2004; 6:45 PM


In April 2003, the Defense Department approved a list of interrogation techniques for use at the Guantanamo Bay prison that permits making a detainee disrobe entirely for questioning, reversing normal sleep patterns and exposing them to heat, cold and "sensory assault," including loud music and bright lights, according to defense officials.

The more aggressive techniques require approval from senior Pentagon officials, and in some cases, the secretary of defense. Interrogators must justify that harshest treatment is "militarily necessary," according to the document, parts of which were cited by an official who possessed the document. Once approved, harsher treatment must be accompanied by "appropriate medical monitoring."

<snip>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11017-2004May8_2.html

[maddezmom]

10. another: Image by image, confession by confession, the horror emerges

~snip~
How has it reached this point? The answer is that the trail to Abu Ghraib runs through the detention camps of Bagram in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay in Cuba to the attacks of 11 September 2001. As the former head of the CIA's counter-terrorism centre, Cofer Black, told a congressional committee a year afterwards, "This is a highly classified area, but I have to say that all you need to know: there was a before 9/11, and there was an after 9/11. After 9/11 the gloves came off."

The message, as Mr Black went on to explain, is that there were "no limits" in an "aggressive, relentless, worldwide pursuit of any terrorist who threatens us". The notion that those whom America deems its enemies have no rights has been endlessly reinforced, not least in words by Mr Rumsfeld, and in deed.

Hundreds of "enemy combatants" have been held in a legal vacuum at Guantanamo Bay and at Bagram in Afghanistan, among facilities that are known, for more than two years. Other suspects have been "rendered" to less fastidious jurisdictions such as Egypt and Morocco, where they can be tortured by the local security services. America has refused to submit to any international legal scrutiny or allow its nationals to be tried by the International Criminal Court.

~snip~
more:http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=519435

[Darranar]

7. Disgusting...

this guy - and the rest - need to go to the Hague...

[yardwork]

8. Agree. This is nothing but state-sanctioned torture

in violation of international law.

Who do these people think they are? They think they are above the law. We need to prove them wrong.

[havocmom]

12. and then toss them to the righteously enraged mobs in Iraq!

We do not accept this! We do not condone this! We sure as hell aren't gonna let these people get away with the horrors they perpatrate on the Iraqi people and the increased danger they cause our sons and daughters in the military.

They are criminals and we need to assure they are never, never able to influence policy again.

[Tinoire]

20. I was trying to find the photo of Myers & co being sworn in yesterday

It looked just like the photos of the swearing-ins at Nuremberg.

These guys are goners. Finger pointing and suicides coming next - they have nowhere to hide.

[Shadder]

9. Timeline

For those like me that are having problems keeping up with all of this I'm working on a timeline licated at:

http://www.savinggraves.org/timeline/index.htm

[reprehensor]

34. You GO!!

Rockin' like a hurricane there, dude!

[NMDemDist2]

35. good job IBN well done! eom

[lumpy]

11. Douglas Feith anti-Arab

http://www.middleeastinfo.org/article701.html


One time special cousel to Richard Perle. Vituperously anti-Arab.
A cut and dried good vs.evil sort of guy. And of course Arabs are the evil and has strong pro-Israel vs. the 'evil Arabs mind-set. No middle road for this guy.

[DemoTex]

14. OK, goddammit! What about A$$hcroft's incommunicado "detainees?"

What about the Gitmo "detainees?" Suspend civil liberties (as we did with the PATRIOT ACT), for whatever reason, and this is what you get. Good god, people, we need questions answered now by Bu$h, Cheney, and A$$hcroft. I feel that Abu Ghraib prison, in Iraq, is the tip of a massive iceberg. Bu$h, the born-again "Christian" president, has ripped the moral fabric of this nation in a way from which we may never, ever, really recover.

[Merlin]

40. ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

It's like everybody is thinking these things are just normal, or--at worst--a few bad apples. BS! These things are the natural consequence of exactly the kind of policies you point to.

[IndianaGreen]

15. How many DUers saw nothing wrong with Guantanamo?

How many saw nothing wrong in the "enemy combatant" designation and opposed those of us that demanded that the prisoners in Afghanistan be treated as POWs under the Geneva Convention.

Nazis were not the only criminals of the Third Reich. They were enabled by those Germans that chose to remain silent at the horrors being perpetrated by the Nazis.

We still have Democrats defending PATRIOT Act, despite the fact that it swept away many of the civil liberties that were guaranteed by the Bill of Rights.

If we are going to hold the Bush regime accountable for its crimes in Iraq and elsewhere, and we should, we should not give a pass to the American people for their own complicity in the crimes of their government.

[DemoTex]

18. Looks like IG and I are on the same frequency tonight.

Basically the same ideas posted at 9:23 by both IG and me.

[bpilgrim]

23. how many now understand why the neoCONs want NO PART of the world court

not to mention the UN...

thank GORE he 'invented' the INTERNET and the rest of yall for the DU :bounce:

:toast:

peace

[TeeYiYi]

56. NO DOUBT! . . .

Look familiar? :grr:



TYY

[burythehatchet]

16. Just one sentiment

FUCK Feith
FUCK Perle
FUCK Wolfowitz
FUCK Rumsfeld
FUCK Sharon
FUCK Rumsfeld
FUCK Cheney
FUCK Bush
FUCK Netanyahu
FUCK them all
FUCK THEM ALL !!!!!!!!
FUCK THEM ALL !!!!!!!!
FUCK THEM ALL !!!!!!!!

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Unknown Known]

19. There was another good thread on this from last night

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1554452

[Tinoire]

22. This is moving too fast for me to keep up!

I hope the mods let this one remain since the other one is in GD & doesn't have the Salon extract.

Thanks! Hopping to that thread now.

[0007]

21. From the top to the bottom - the gloves came off

"The responsibility for Abu Ghraib may well go all the way to the top: all the way up to the officials who complained that Clinton "handcuffed the CIA", all the way up to the officials who talked about how the "gloves came off".

This is institutional. This sadism, this cruelty, this inhumanity. It is institutional. It is a result of a message from the top. It is a result of rhetoric about good and evil. It is a result of painting people as "evil". It is a result of politicians and political appointees bragging about how the "gloves have come off". It is a result of talk about how "everything's changed". It is a crisis of leadership, alright: a crisis of the White House, a crisis of the Pentagon E Ring."

Arrest junior and his administration and frog march 'em all to the Hague. Are they any different than Miloslavich (sp)

[randr]

24. Once the Pentagon grasps the impact

of indictments against a long string of command we may see the whistle blowing concert of the century. Fingers will point to the privatization forces! The actual people on the ground, the civilian command structure, the corporate CEO warmongers, and hopefully the political cabal that allowed this to come about, all must be held accountable

[maryallen]

30. It may have been Military JAG officers who ...

Slipped the photos to CBS et al.

Think about it: The article said that career military people, particularly JAG officers, were horrified by the new interrogation policy.

It's been known for a while that the Pentagon was very unhappy with Rumsfeld -- think Shinseki and other generals who wouldn't play Dubya's game, and subsequently, got sacked. Even Colin Powell, in Woodward's book referred to the PNAC boys as Fascists/Nazis (can't remember which). Of course, what's just as bad: He recognized what they were and STAYED in the administration, anyway.

[ewagner]

25. Smoking gun?

:wow: :wow: :wow:

[natrat]

28. please

it will be back to michael jackson dancing on his limo by Wednesday

[Jackpine Radical]

29. Not smoking gun.

Smoking skin electrodes.

[seemslikeadream]

26. I love you Tinoire

Things are moving really fast aren't they?

[Tinoire]

31. Thanks: Halliburton Pulling the Plug on GI Communications

It's mutual. You're so on top of things keeping us all informed :loveya:

Halliburton Pulling the Plug on GI Communications

A week after a scandal broke involving photos of American troops torturing Iraqi prisoners, Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown, & Root is pulling the plug on private electronic communications with the folks back home, apparently at the request of the Department of Defence. See, for example, this note from military blogger (moniker deleted by me to protect the innocent):

I might be getting transferred within the next week to anotehr post. At the very least, KBR is not allowing any private computers on their system for the next ninety days. There might be one other option, but if you don't hear from me for a while...God, I don't know what I'll do about the kitty.

. . . I told them when I got here that I couldn't drive. They insisted on giving me a license. Now they're angry at me because I'm not comfortable driving. Go figure. The fact that this happened almost immediately after SB and I had an argument about it and then it came to someone else's attention is purely coincidental, I'm sure.

Edited to add: Screw it. No matter what it takes, I will get to my email.

<snip>

Email from a friend with contacts among American troops in Iraq prompts me to wish some journalist would investigate reports that the military has ordered KBR, which provides net connectivity for US camps and bases in Iraq, to cut off all soldiers’ “inessential” access to email and the net for the next 90 days.
The Bush administration has faced rising criticism over the course of the week, with many calling for the resignation of Secretary of Defence, Donald Rumsfeld. Vice President Cheney was the CEO of Halliburton before his departure to become the Vice President of the United States.

<snip>

http://www.kathryncramer.com/wblog/archives/000549.html

[NMDemDist2]

36. can you say "censorship" ? I knew you could! eom

[Tinoire]

37. Lol. There's not enough censorship in the world to stuff this genie

back into the bottle ;)

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[starroute]

42. More on Steven Stefanowicz

He comes from the next town down the road from me, and the local papers have been full of the story. Here are a couple of links:

http://www.pottstownmercury.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11614603&BRD=1674&PAG=461&dept_id=18041&rfi=6

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-a1_2abusemay08,0,2804243.story?coll=all-newslocal-hed

[seemslikeadream]

43. starroute

thanks so much

[seemslikeadream]

44. check first link

is it coming up for you?

[starroute]

50. It works for me, but here's an alternative

http://www.thereporteronline.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11615058&BRD=2275&PAG=461&dept_id=466404&rfi=6

Same story, but in the Lansdale Reporter instead of the Pottstown Mercury.

[JPZenger]

55. Don't be too Quick to Believe this story

I tried to find any corraboration on this email cut off story on the web and haven't found it. One source said that most soldiers' email from Iraq is handled by a completely different company, and that it is still working.

[madrchsod]

27. i just returned from the "white side"

boy are some of these guys pissed off. i`d say 50% agree with the many du`ers here about what is happening and why..that in it`s self is really ,really scary. of course the other 50% are just as scary in their hatred for anyone that isn`t white and christian..the mind boggles at the implications

[Tinoire]

32. Yikes. "George W Bush makes me proud to be an American"!!

Thomas Hamill was interviewed this evening by Rita Cosby who asked him if he'd go back to Iraq. He said he wants to but his family doesn't want him to. He then asked Rita if she wanted to know why he'd go back and he told her "Because George W Bush makes me proud to be an American"!!

I stand behind this mission (to Iraq) and I stand behind this President.

Link here} but no sense in visiting.
[br />Had to get out of there quick. I don't have the stomache for the White Side. The Gray one was bad enough.

[DemoTex]

33. Mercenary.

He wasn't fighting a war, he was whoring for KBR. Don't ever forget that. Thomas Hamill is a "lucky ducky," nothing more. He is certainly not a war hero. Cripes! Fucking Rovian rabbit hole. Next week they will trot him out as a genuine hero, mark my word!

[ColdWarZoomie]

52. Sad

Hamill is the only good news they've got right now. Let them savor it.

[Jim__]

41. Clearly, the torture of prisoners was administration policy

Knowing that, how does it speak to bush, rumsfeld, meyers, et al that they are now trying to place the blame on the low level privates and sergeants who were doing what they were told?

I can't believe that any American still supports this scum.

[Tinoire]

49. Dedicated to "Scott". A few bad apples, not...

The story is a few bad apples, if you're on the left it's because they are ignorant rednecks and Klan-loving white trash. If you're on the right it's because they are gays and lesbians and perverts and women who don't belong in combat.

This is ignored. McCain did his best to bring it up at the hearings...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1212197,00.html

The sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison was not an invention of maverick guards, but part of a system of ill-treatment and degradation used by special forces soldiers that is now being disseminated among ordinary troops and contractors who do not know what they are doing, according to British military sources.

The techniques devised in the system, called R2I - resistance to interrogation - match the crude exploitation and abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.

<snip>

He said British and US military intelligence soldiers were trained in these techniques, which were taught at the joint services interrogation centre in Ashford, Kent, now transferred to the former US base at Chicksands.

<snip>

Female guards were used to taunt male prisoners sexually and at British training sessions when female candidates were undergoing resistance training they would be subject to lesbian jibes.

"Most people just laugh that off during mock training exercises, but the whole experience is horrible. Two of my colleagues couldn't cope with the training at the time. One walked out saying 'I've had enough', and the other had a breakdown. It's exceedingly disturbing," said the former Special Boat Squadron officer, who asked that his identity be withheld for security reasons.

<snip>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1212197,00.html

[Karenina]

51. Systemic rotten SOP.

The whole world smells the stench.
Is THIS the tipping point?

[ColdWarZoomie]

53. RAF Chicksands

My old base was RAF Chiskands.

I was stationed there where it was USAF - not the Brits there now.

It was SIGINT, not HUMINT. Wondered what they were up to after we left. Now we see.

[never cry wolf]

54. This AWESOME post deserves a kick

Tinoire, you are the best!

[LibertyorDeath]

57. Kick

[Tinoire]

58. General Rick Baccus! One RIGHTEOUS mensch who said no

===

<snip>

Gitmo dispute

The Defense Intelligence Agency, which is in charge of interrogating the prisoners held at the prison at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is having trouble getting information. Defense sources tell us interrogators are being undermined by the general in charge of the prison, Army Brig Gen. Rick Baccus, who is being too nice to the 598 captured terrorists.

<snip>

Gen. Baccus in April addressed the detainees and began speaking with the words "peace be with you" and finished with "may God be with you." He promised that as long as he is in charge the prisoners will be "treated humanly."

Gen. Baccus also authorized putting up posters supplied by the International Committee of the Red Cross around the camp. The posters remind prisoners they need only cooperate as required by the Geneva Convention on the rules of war — name, rank and serial number.

The too-kind treatment upset Army Maj. Gen. Michael Dunlavey, who is in charge of the interrogation unit at Guantanamo Bay, nicknamed "Gitmo." A spokesman for Gen. Dunlavey could not be reached for comment.

<snip>

Bill Gertz and Rowan Scarborough are Pentagon reporters. Mr. Gertz can be reached at 202/636-3274 or by e-mail at [email protected] . Mr. Scarborough can be reached at 202/636-3208 or by e-mail at [email protected] .

http://www.gertzfile.com/gertzfile/ring100402.html
===


Relieved of his command ... Brigadier-General Rick Baccus was accused of wanting to allow the prisoners too many human rights. Photo: AFP/ Rhona Wise
====

<snip>

"The commander of the Guantanamo Bay detention camp - who was criticised in the US press for being too soft on the inmates - has been dismissed" Turns out that he hadn't violated enough of the Geneva Conventions. "In August Gen Baccus told a visiting group of journalists, including the Guardian, that uniformed officers had concerns that the Guantanamo Bay inmates continued to be labelled 'enemy combatants' rather than 'prisoners of war', a classification which would give them more rights under the Geneva conventions and which would assure their release at the end of hostilities. "

<snip>

Officials at the Guantanamo Bay base, a US enclave in Cuba, said Gen Baccus had left because his unit, responsible for running Camp Delta, the base's detention centre, was merged with Joint Task Force 170, a combined unit drawn from the Defence Intelligence Agency, CIA and FBI, which questions the inmates.

His commanding officer in the Rhode Island national guard, Major-General Reginald Centracchio, said he had sacked him for various reasons that "culminated in my losing trust and confidence in him". A national guard spokesman said General Baccus had failed to keep the headquarters up to date with reports on the troops' well-being.

<snip>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,812646,00.html

===============

Soldiers at Guantánamo Bay mark anniversary, carry on
Troops pray, observe moment of silence; detainees aren't told

09/12/2002

Associated Press

GUANTÁNAMO BAY NAVAL BASE, Cuba – The 598 detainees at this U.S. outpost thousands of miles from ground zero have no calendars and were not told that Wednesday was Sept. 11.

"We're not making any special announcements to them," said Brig. Gen. Rick Baccus, who heads the detention mission at the base in remote eastern Cuba.

<snip>

"Although the Department of Defense is preparing to conduct military commissions, no trials are imminent," said Maj. Ted Wadsworth, a Pentagon spokesman. "No charges have been approved."

U.S. officials say the detainees are being treated humanely under conditions set by the Geneva Conventions, though Washington has refused to classify them as prisoners of war, calling them unlawful combatants.

"While the public debates the technicalities of how these people should be classified, we will continue to follow the traditions of humane treatment," Brig. Gen. Baccus said.

<snip>

http://www.txcn.com/sharedcontent/dallas/nation/9-11/stories/091202dni...

========================
<snip>

Last week, a brief article in the Washington Post gave a lot more details than we were able to glean from the local media about the recent removal of Vo Dilun-based Brigadier General Rick Baccus as a National Guard commander. Baccus was the head of the military police in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where suspected Al Qaeda members and other alleged terrorists have been held for months. The Post article indicated that Baccus "has been removed from his job amid allegations that he was uncommunicative with superiors and that he improperly tried to interfere in the interrogation of suspected Taliban and Al Qaeda prisoners jailed there."

He was also said to have "clashed repeatedly with a number of senior officers, including the head of the camp's interrogation unit, Army Reserve Major General Michael Dunlavey. Some sources said Baccus complained that at times interrogators were rude or too intrusive with the detainees, an assertion Baccus denied in interviews with Rhode Island news organizations."

Now, imagine this incredible outrage: "A number of military officers also have complained that Baccus coddled detainees by beginning his addresses to them over loudspeakers with the phrase, `peace be with you.' Others said Baccus raised questions about some tactics of psychological pressure that interrogators sometimes used on prisoners, even though the interrogators were within the bounds of proper tactics, sources said. Baccus has denied those accusations."

Well, there you go. According to the report, Baccus appears to be a stickler for following Geneva Conventions for detaining prisoners of war. We'll wait until the whole story becomes clearer, but based on this, it sounds as if Rick Baccus is one of the good guys.

<snip>
http://www.providencephoenix.com/archive/pj/02/10/24/pj.html

===

According to a news article of June 21, 2002, at the US Department of Defence website, he said: "As to the detainees, the task force must ensure they're treated humanely within the spirit of the Geneva Convention. Humane treatment means we have to provide them clothing, food, shelter and allow them to practise their religious beliefs."

<snip>

Brigadier-General Rick Baccus refused to soften up the detainees for interrogation purposes. Eventually, he was relieved of his duties on October 9, 2002, for being "too nice" to prisoners. In addition to that, he also lost his appointment with Rhode Island National.

Whatever happened at Abu Ghraib is an offshoot of the shameful removal of Brig Baccus who had tried to treat prisoners with minimal human dignity and eventually lost his job.

Prosecuting and blaming a dozen low-ranking soldiers and guards is implausible. The responsibility lies at a much higher level in the chain of command.

<snip>
http://www.dawn.com/2004/05/10/letted.htm

===

<snip>

Rick Baccus, who headed the military police operation at Guantanamo for seven months in 2002, said that the two sides were sometimes at odds.
Baccus had ordered religious books for the detainees and arranged a special meal schedule for Ramadan, the Muslim holiday. He also proposed more recreation time and showers.

But the interrogators, Baccus said, complained that these were special accommodations that undermined their information gathering.

"They would view that as us giving a reward. And I would view that as humane treatment," said Baccus. "There is nothing inherently wrong. It's just a natural tension that existed." ...

<snip>

Baccus said he taught the MPs to keep their emotions in check when dealing with detainees. The MPs received two weeks of training when they arrived and were under close supervision, he said.

One problem was that soldiers liked taking pictures.

"One of the things you realize is that everybody has a camera," Baccus said. The guards were forbidden to photograph the detainees, but images left the camp anyway, he said.

Baccus said he ordered regular inspections and confiscated photographs from soldiers.

<snip>

Baccus said the specifics of how the MPs and interrogators handled the detainees are classified. "There was no question that we were to treat the detainees humanely," he said...

<snip>

He used three groups to help him watch the MPs: The Red Cross, which had regular access to the facility; his noncommissioned officers, who monitored the cell blocks; and the Muslim chaplins, who relayed complaints from the detainees.

<snip>

http://floricane.typepad.com/buttermilk/sand_storm_the_middle_east /
http://www.projo.com/news/content/projo_20040509_baccus9.19caf1.html

====

<snip>

Rick Baccus, who, a Defense source recalled, mainly "wanted to keep the prisoners happy." Baccus began giving copies of the Qur'an to detainees, and he organized a special meal schedule for Ramadan. "He was even handing out printed 'rights cards'," the Defense source recalled. The upshot was that the prisoners were soon telling the interrogators, "Go f--- yourself, I know my rights." Baccus was relieved in October 2002, and Rumsfeld gave military intelligence control of all aspects of the Gitmo camp, including the MPs.

Pentagon officials now insist that they flatly ruled out using some of the harsher interrogation techniques authorized for the CIA. That included one practice—reported last week by The New York Times—whereby a suspect is pushed underwater and made to think he will be drowned. While the CIA could do pretty much what it liked in its own secret centers, the Pentagon was bound by the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Military officers were routinely trained to observe the Geneva Conventions. According to one source, both military and civilian officials at the Pentagon ultimately determined that such CIA techniques were "not something we believed the military should be involved in."

<snip>
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4989438 /

==
<snip>

The dismissal came as 12 Kuwaiti prisoners mounted the first organised legal and diplomatic effort to challenge the US policy that holds terrorism suspects indefinitely at Guantanamo without court hearings or charges being filed.

<snip>

The 12 captives contend they are not members of al-Qaeda, nor the Taliban, but charity workers who were helping refugees created by Afghanistan's harsh regime when they were caught up in the chaos of the war last northern autumn and winter. In trying to flee to Pakistan, they say, they fell into the hands of Pakistanis who "sold" them to US troops, collecting a bounty.

Their families have retained a Washington firm that specialises in international law.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/16/1034561210959.html

===


Brig. Gen. Rick Baccus, 51, who ran the detention operation from March to October 2002, said in an interview Friday that he directed subordinates to make surprise visits to all areas of the detention center and to report mistreatment. He regularly spoke with Muslim chaplains who served the prisoners and maintained "a constant, open dialogue" with the Red Cross, he said.
"They were welcome any time of day or night," Baccus said. In contrast to Abu Ghraib, Red Cross representatives were at Guantanamo nearly the entire time he was there, he added.

<snip>

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/05-04/05-17-04/a02wn366.htm

===


American military officers are taught the rules of the Geneva Conventions and told they must ignore illegal orders which violate these treaties, even if they come from "temporary occupants of the White House" as General Douglas MacArthur once described. This caused conflicts last year as a courageous General in charge of security at Gitmo, Brigadier General Rick Baccus, insisted on obeying the Geneva Conventions by referring to the prisoners as POWs. Baccus was removed after irritating Major General Michael Dunlavey, who is in charge of interrogating the prisoners, with his decision to allow the Red Cross to put up posters advising detainees they need only provide their name, rank and number during questioning.

Meanwhile, quiet resistance within the US military delayed plans for military tribunals, avoiding another violation of the Geneva Conventions. The British sent stern warnings that executing British citizens deemed POWs by the Red Cross would not be tolerated, so their nine citizens have been excused from death threats. This past Summer, after months of private discussions about POW treatment at Gitmo, the Red Cross openly declared the US Government in violation of the Geneva Conventions based upon first hand reports from Cuba. Food quality and exercise rights were tied to cooperation during interrogations, reports of physical torture emerged, and it was revealed that three boys under age 16 were in custody. Since Gitmo was run as a high security facility with all activities considered secret, Gitmo commanders were enraged at the prospect of facing an international war crimes tribunal in the future.

<snip>

http://www.g2mil.com/Dec2003.htm

===
<snip>

Speaking in a get-acquainted interview with The Herald and The Associated Press, Brig. Gen. Rick Baccus said it was "not really" of concern to him that Pentagon guidelines for any upcoming Military Commissions consider the captives innocent until proven guilty.

Baccus added that he had not received word yet to prepare for the trials. Guantánamo Bay is considered a likely location to hold them, although none of the 299 prisoners now held at Camp X-Ray have been charged and no venue has been set.

"They're all killers. They all were carrying weapons against United States servicemen," said Baccus, 49, a career army officer, lately with the Rhode Island National Guard, who took command of the prison project March 28.

<snip>

http://www.broward.com/mld/broward/news/3031790.htm

=

Military Uniform = Deceit to CNN

CNN reporter Bob Franken: “Journalists were kept in polite custody during the operation far from here. Military officials cited operational security, what they like to call ‘OpSec.’ So reports of the transfer were provided only by the ones who were in charge of it.”
Franken to Brigadier General Rick Baccus: “How can we know that you’re telling the truth?”
Baccus: “As you are well aware, the International Committee of the Red Cross is on station. They were informed of the move yesterday and they have access to the detainees as of today with no problems, so they could verify that.”
Franken: “May I follow up? The International Red Cross, as you know, does not report to the public, nor do you report whatever their deliberations are. How can the public know that you’re telling the truth about the move?”
Baccus: “Well, as a commissioned officer in the armed forces, I can assure you that what I’ve said is the truth.”
– Story on the move of detainees from Camp X-Ray to Camp Delta, April 29 NewsNight on CNN.

http://www.mediaresearch.org/notablequotables/2002/nq20020513.asp
Entire transcript: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0204/29/asb.00.html
==

Brigadier-General Rick Baccus, commander of the prison-guard unit at Guantanamo, says "some sections" of the 1949 Geneva Convention on prisoners of war are being applied to the inmates. He lists food and shelter, medical treatment and freedom of religion.

When asked who decides when to follow the conventions and when to ignore them, he replied, "That has been directed by the Secretary of Defence."

But the Geneva Convention says a "competent tribunal" should decide the status of detainees if there is doubt as to whether they are prisoners of war. The idea of Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld as sole arbiter does not sit well with Michael Byers, a professor of international law at Duke University in North Carolina.

<snip>

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0905-01.htm

==

<snip>

WHEN I sat down with US Brigadier General Rick Baccus in July and
asked him if he was happy that the Guantanamo Bay detainees were
terrorists and if he believed they were being treated humanely, he
grimaced.

The man in charge of the 598 detainees held in cages on the cliff-top
Cuban prison then smiled and trotted out the official line.

"Dangerous men... Geneva Convention... enemy combatants..." he
droned, following the official US line to the letter.

But it was the grimace that gave the game away.

Even the senior officer supervising this extraordinary internment
camp clearly had doubts about the wisdom of Guantanamo Bay.

<snip>

http://squawk.ca/lbo-talk/0210/2114.html