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Daveparts still Donating Member (614 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 09:18 AM
Original message
Why the Coming Great Depression will be Worse Than the Last One
Why the Coming Great Depression will be Worse Than the Last One
By David Glenn Cox



Oct. 2 (Bloomberg)- September’s losses bring total jobs lost since the recession began in December 2007 to 7.2 million, the biggest decline since the Great Depression.

The media will not tell us the truth, and when they do it’s because it’s become old news. The truth just isn’t in them; their job, as they see it, is to please their employer and not report the news. If you’ve ever watched any of the old movies from the thirties, there is always the character of the hot-tempered editor, yelling and screaming for the reporters to get the story.

Today with calm dispassion they say, “You’re a damn fine reporter, you’re fired! It came down from corporate this morning.” Dan Rather is case in point but only because he was a household name. No one likes a person crowing about being right, so I won't. I’ll just say that I’ve been calling this a depression for over a year.

It’s not because I’m smart, it is because I’m old. It’s my personal demographics. My parents were the youngest children in their respective families and I am the youngest child in my family. My father used to tell me, “The Civil War was a long time ago, but I knew two men who were in it.” Both of my parents survived the last depression, my mother in the city of Chicago and my father in a small town in Ohio.

My father warned me about the coming depression during Bush’s first term, so actually the idea for this piece is his. “During the last depression people lived in the country or small towns and knew their neighbors. Now people live in cities and are strangers to most of their neighbors and they own more guns. We owned shot guns and hunting rifles but I don’t think I ever saw my dad with a pistol.”

My mother told me stories about people sleeping in vegetable gardens in their back yards with shotguns. She also explained about people sleeping on a sun porch. An item long lost to modern architecture, but it was a screened-in porch sometimes referred to as a chase porch or a sleeping porch. People didn’t have air conditioning so they would sleep on the porch.

Prisons sometimes give inmates ice cream in the summer; not because it looks cute to see a three hundred-pound murderer eating a Klondike bar, they know that heat in confined spaces causes violence. Today’s homes and apartments are not equipped to be cooled naturally. As more and more people turn off the air to save money, or have it turned off for them, look for tempers to rise.

During the 1930’s the country was almost 60% rural; times were bad but most still had food to eat. Even most people who lived in cities still had relatives back on the farm. When my father was twelve he was sent to live on his grandfather's dairy farm because his parents couldn’t feed him. Times were hard and he never owned a new pair of shoes until he joined the Navy, but he always had food to eat.

My mother’s situation was different. They were city people but they had strong family ties and strong ties with the Catholic Church. My mother attended Catholic school gratis but was required to pitch in when asked. Cleaning, washing, whatever a young girl could do. And when she stayed late she was fed. She remembers the nuns teaching her to sew and giving her fabric. She always hated Shirley Temple because in her movies she could just sing or dance and the depression just went away as nice rich folks would just shower her with love. But when you were a little girl in the real depression, it was a big. fat insulting lie.

My mother’s first taste of watermelon came from a trash can, and her first taste of steak came after her marriage. Her father abandoned the family. Like for millions of other men, it became harder and harder to go home and look at the faces of hungry children. I won’t say that what he did was right, only that I understand. It was common during the depression for men to disappear. They lost their jobs and then their identities, then their pride, and then their souls.

My grandmother died of a heart attack when she was barely forty. She cleaned houses, took in laundry and mopped floors until it killed her. My Uncle Dan took over the family at the ripe old age of fifteen. He promised that he would never marry until his five brothers and sisters were married first. Only because of the strong family and church ties was this arrangement allowed to stand. How many families today could manage such an arrangement? To the end of her days my mother would not tolerate anything negative ever being said about her brother Dan.

The people in that era had the radio and the newspaper. Today we have television, radio, the Internet and the newspaper. But television has gone digital which means when the cable is shut off the TV is shut off. The radio really doesn’t do news much anymore, just headlines and sports scores. Newspapers have grown expensive and are not commonplace like they once were. So when you can’t pay your bills, where are you going to get your news from? Rush Limbaugh?

Living in the suburbs of Atlanta, public transportation here barely exists. When the unemployed need to travel, how will they go? On the farm the dairy made a daily pick up at six AM. My father was expected to help haul milk cans to the wagon and then could get a ride to school on the back. Already schools are cutting back on school buses, shortening routes and shrinking availability forcing parents to car pool. But what about when the parents can’t do that anymore?

Here in Gwinnett County the county government is looking at a one billion-dollar revenue shortfall. Houses sold under foreclosure are taxed according to the purchase price. So the tax base itself is shrinking. Remember those people whining, “Why should we bail out people who can’t pay their mortgage?”
There’s your answer, cities and counties across America are laying off policemen and firemen and closing fire stations and cutting back services.

People are going to die. I see more and more people on bicycles and small motor scooters. Our roads here are not designed for them and the result is inevitable. Let’s assume you're homeless, where do your children legally attend school? Where you used to live? Or wherever you can get them in? How will you get their shots and their medical records, without transportation? Without those they will be turned away, you know.

More than anything else my father advised that “people were gentler in that era.” Even so, riots and food riots were commonplace. Today people pack guns and tasers and pepper spray, ready at a moment’s notice if they don’t like the way you’re looking at them. My father was in a food riot. Men were tossing down bags of Hoover’s cracked wheat when someone became offended by the way the bag was thrown down. The people rushed the truck and hell was a poppin.

The police in that era carried a Billy club and a pistol, and for the most part they were trained to direct traffic and take complaints from neighbors. Today they like to dress like commandos with Army boots and body armor. Today the message says, "I’m here to confront you and control you." But what will Kelly’s heroes do when confronted with a food riot? Fire into the crowd? Try and taser everyone?

When you overlay a 1930’s style depression on our current society you begin to see just how important the New Deal was. It cooled tempers and gave hope to the poor. Today, however, the New Deal was issued to the banks and they are quickly making a comeback. In 1932 Roosevelt closed the banks and then throttled them. The money was pushed into the bottom of the economy rather than the top. So let's call this attempt the Raw Deal because that’s what Americans have gotten, a raw deal.

Under the New Deal the banks and the stock market didn’t fully recover until the 1950’s, long after the economy overall had recovered. But this time around the banks have recovered and the public has been left to languish. I hope for another New Deal, not because I’m a Democrat but because the greatest fear that politicians had in the 1930’s was of a revolution and blood in the streets, and as we see every day in the news people aren’t as nice as they used to be.
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. how about during the great depression...
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 09:25 AM by Sen. Walter Sobchak
there was nobody, let alone an entire political machine dedicated to holding our heads under water.
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Craftsman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. I fear in 6 to 18 months there will be violence in the streets that make
The race riots f fteh 60's look like a Sunday church ice cream social.
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WestSeattle2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
54. I totally agree. Next summer will be interesting. Combine
extended unemployment, loss of benefits, hopelessness, lack of education, and racism on all sides, and you have a powder keg ready to blow. Congress won't continue to extend unemployment benefits forever, and when the money runs out, so will personal restraint. The most dangerous creature is a man with nothing to lose.
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DarthTater Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-08-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #54
98. I don't think...
...it will take until next summer...in some cases, it's not lack of education, it's corporations who refuse to hire to keep the bottom line looking good, look at the Dow and ask yourself if corporate greed isn't driving the index higher while unemployment continues to rise...

I think the powder keg goes before the end of the year.
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Wanet Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
3. Thank you Dave
I've had some of these same thoughts but couldn't express them nearly as well as you have. My parents grew up during the Depression. They packed peaches in the summer to earn money for their school clothes and shoes. My dad was a migrant farmworker in the Salinas Valley as an older teenager. The thing that strikes me most about modern people is we don't know how to DO anything -- grow and cook our food, sew our clothes, repair things that are broken. We have no skills that will matter in the coming years.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. I'm sorry, and agree somewhat, but if people don't know how to take care of themselves/each other
with the basics - cooking, sewing, repairs, etc. - then they should make an effort to learn these things.

That said, despite this idea, I don't necessarily believe it. I think the DIY culture has been growing on all fronts for the past 20 years. More and more people are learning these basic skills, as evidenced by the popularity of TV shows, stores, magazines, classes, and other things which cater to them.

I don't know - I suppose I am insulated from the suburbs; maybe out there they don't know how to wipe their own butts, and if that is true I suppose I feel sorry for them, but it's a limited empathy also since those are also the people who tend to use electric versions of everything from toothbrush to can opener, drive gas guzzlers, buy too much useless crap, and who complain about only making $100K a year, etc.

Sorry if that sounds cold. I don't wish these people any ill, I just think they should make a point of getting off their butts and catching up with the rest of us.
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Gman2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. You are the problem. We always castigate those below and just below our place
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 02:20 PM by Gman2
We seem to think the morality line, between moral and immoral, is just where WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE are. All others are just gettin' whatz cummin' to um. No matter where we are, that is where all are above average starts. And we think, that if everyone did as WEEEEEEEEEEEEE did, all would be good. It is untrue, and narcissistic in the extreme.



We rail at the rich, who only want to help the rich, they are JUST doing exactly what YOU are doing. If you are not better, how can we make them be?
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #24
45. Where the hell did I say that?
Jesus Christ, all I said was that DIY culture is not dead, even if no one you know does this stuff. It's not a class or money thing, as I know people from up and down the ladder who are into cooking, making things, etc. Sure, I know some who are not, but I try to not make sweeping generalizations as found in this article.

Then again, I guess I have always been a weirdo compared to mainstream culture.

But for the record, don't act like I made a moral judgement; I just said maybe people should try to learn some of these skills - the most important of which is to not be afraid to try things. It has nothing to do with money: I've had many times in my life where I did not have 2 nickels to rub together. I guess I got lucky in that my mom was one of those folks who will jump in and try something, and she taught me the same values. Sure, sometimes I fail - like trying to be understood on this f'ing message board - but that doesn't make me give up.
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Gman2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. You are drawing the line of sufficiency at your level.
You think those that are not up to your, and what you consider YOUR people, are slacking. The rich think we all are slacking. We all are under the rich. If you prescribe the fix, to the less than you, so too do the rich have the right then, to prescribe to YOU, what YOU had BETTER do, or you are less than sympathetic.
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Gman2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. "I'm sorry, and agree somewhat, but if people don't know how to take care of themselves/each other"
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #52
59. you forgot the other half of that
where I suggest people try to do things for themselves. It doesn't take money, and I was just saying that the DIY culture seems to be all around us.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #45
66. "...they should make a point of getting off their butts and catching up with the rest of us."
We already have a political party that has that as their philosophy. It does sound like you are making a moral judgment.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #66
73. I did not mean that in any Republican sense at all
I'm not saying I am special, nor am I saying that a lot of DIY stuff is beyond most people's means or abilities. But I am saying that I think a lot of people I've met are scared to try things which they may fail at, so they simply don't try or get frustrated too early.

And my point in saying the part you quoted is because people in this thread are acting like "oh, everything was better back in my day, and you kids don't know how to do anything for yourselves" so I was pointing out that I know a LOT of folks of all walks of life and ages, incomes, and skill sets who love to make things and get into DIY. Hell, if anything, the article in the OP is the one making a judgement about how my generation and living in a city are awful therefore this depression will be worse because we don't value things or have basic skills. So in defending myself, I'm the one making a moral judgement? Really?
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #73
85. I'm with you on this, unpossibles
Sorry I didn't see this thread earlier today. :hi:

For my own 2 cents - there are people of all generations, from 20-somethings to 80-somethings like my mom and my in-laws, who are very much into DIY. Everything from canning and preserving their garden produce to installing their own solar generating systems. Some of them are "dirt poor" in the sense of living off a tiny bit of land, making do with little cash. Others are more than financially comfortable.

The point being, it's possible for ANYONE to learn the necessary skills for survival in a post-consumer world, should that ever come to be. And those who are smart have done so.

It could be that those who become defensive about it are those who have the least such skills.

It's not a moral judgment -- it's simple pragmatism. What might be considered marketable job skills these days -- oh, like grant writing or fiduciary accounting or project management -- might someday be worth a whole lot less when the needed skills are bicycle repair, jam-making, and post-and-beam construction.



Tansy Gold
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #85
91. exactly, and thanks!
If I can paraphrase from the book Dune, "the most important thing Paul learned was that he is capable of learning."
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #85
95. +1
If those are the three main skills required, then I should be in good shape. I've learned to make a killer peach preserve with honey and stevia instead of sugar as well as canning my homegrown beans, I have several bicycle repair guides and used to be pretty good at fixing my own bikes, and I know the basics of post-and-beam through my work as an engineer as well as my own research and carpentry work. :D
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cpamomfromtexas Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. When I was about 13, my Dad told us that someday only
people with skills will be able to make it.

That's why we lived in the country and did everything from scratch.

Today we live in town, but I still try to teach my kids the same.

My oldest is freakishly mechanical, so he's getting it.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #18
72. awesome!
Edited on Tue Oct-06-09 08:19 AM by unpossibles
I really enjoy making things, and sometimes when I was younger I enjoyed (semi-accidentally) breaking things to see how they worked or were put together. I'm no mechanical genius by any means, but I'm really glad my mom and dad taught me to at least try things, from cooking and gardening, to some basic repairs of things.

I really did not mean to sound like I thought I was better than anyone, because often it does not take anything special. I fail at things all the time, but I do try. And frankly, the DIY spirit enables me to save money in many ways, although many things are beyond my abilities, knowledge, or skill set/tools, or are just not safe for the home enthusiast to do, so I do rely on others as well.
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cpamomfromtexas Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #72
84. I agree, frequently it's just trying something that makes all the difference.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #72
92.  I enjoyed (semi-accidentally) breaking things
This called reverse engineering.
I did the same thing when I was a kid.

Pragmatic skills are the best thing to be learning these days.Quite frankly,I believe that darwin days are coming to a nation near you in the very near future.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
4. I wish the Glenn Cox's of the world
would use their "insight" to find solutions, instead of looking out the window and describing what they see.
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architect359 Donating Member (544 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. +1 to your comment.
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Daveparts still Donating Member (614 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. At the Forefront
At the Forefront
Posted by Daveparts still in Editorials & Other Articles
Tue Sep 22nd 2009, 10:28 AM
At the Forefront
By David Glenn Cox



“Those who came before us made certain that this country rode the first waves of the industrial revolutions, the first waves of modern invention, and the first wave of nuclear power, and this generation does not intend to founder in the backwash of the coming age of space. We mean to be a part of it--we mean to lead it. For the eyes of the world now look into space, to the moon and to the planets beyond, and we have vowed that we shall not see it governed by a hostile flag of conquest, but by a banner of freedom and peace. We have vowed that we shall not see space filled with weapons of mass destruction, but with instruments of knowledge and understanding.” (John F. Kennedy)

President Kennedy never had any idea how the seeds planted would someday bear fruit. The money spent for the space program has been returned to us a thousand fold. The world was completely changed forever; we gained new knowledge of computers, metals, life science. The investment in brainpower has incalculable returns, it is the future and it is also the only path forward. The Hubble space telescope has revolutionized our understanding of the universe and our place in it. For the price of one small weapons system, our knowledge of the universe has been vastly multiplied.

The machine that you are reading this on came from the space program, and the companies that built it didn’t exist when Kennedy proposed tossing his cap over the wall of space. So let us follow Kennedy’s thought to where we are today. Kennedy faced a cold war with the Soviets. We face economic turmoil, and an economy that is losing domestic employment and hemorrhaging its vital economic life force. We are shackled by a dependence on imported oil and natural gas. Our very sovereignty is endangered by massive debts owed to less than benign powers.

I have been asked many times, "What, then, is the answer?" To begin with, the departure of Van Jones illustrates the problem. A name on a door and an office in the White House is a symbol and not a program. Part of President Obama’s green initiative spends millions of dollars to help design oil drilling bits for the most profitable corporations on planet Earth.

Condensed, our problems are jobs, fuel and balance of trade. During the last Great Depression FDR put tens of thousands to work for the Tennessee Valley Authority. The TVA changed one of the poorest regions in the country to a center of strength. Cheap electrical power brought industry to the region along with jobs and prosperity.

We have in this country tens of thousands of areas where wind power technology is entirely practical. What we need in this country is a green program not unlike Kennedy’s space program, with the goal of being completely finished with oil by the end of the next decade. The program will cost a great deal of money, yet that will be a pittance when compared with the return. A green revolution for homes cars and industry, developing new technologies and expanding our knowledge and keeping that knowledge proprietary.

The brainpower will come from American universities and equipment will be built with American labor and components. All products will contain 85% American parts and will be assembled in America. The technologies developed under the program will be licensed with the royalties going into a national sovereign wealth fund. In eleven years, thousands of wind power plants and solar plants will generate enough electricity to make coal fired plants obsolete. The new technology will need no fuel; it will not participate in cap and trade because it will have zero emissions.

In 1961 we as a nation had difficulty getting rockets off the ground, but in just nine years we reached the moon. What could this sort of dedicated program do for America’s auto industry? Today the best electric car has a two hundred-mile range, but with innovations such as the Stanford battery, that could multiply ten fold. Our future could be bright if only we look towards it rather than cringe from it. These new products would be exported to the world with export tariffs to let your investment pay the taxes rather than the poor and struggling. The tariffs are only paid by nations that wish to participate in the green wave. Like a lottery ticket, they are a tax only on the willing.

Clean, plentiful and inexpensive electricity will give manufactures a competitive advantage. A tax code that rewards employers and punishes speculators and purveyors of the old way will help to subsidize the cost. This is not a pipe dream or a gee golly I wish that…, this is the only way. The days of oil are numbered and we all understand that. Do we wait for that day wringing our hands? Or do we step boldly forward to avert it? Do we build ever more military systems to control the flow of oil, or do we build systems to subvert the need entirely?

Henry Ford once spent two billion dollars trying to build a rubber plantation in South America. It was a failure as the answer wasn’t in the jungle but in the laboratory with a test tube and at a tenth of the cost. It takes courage to look forward into the future because the future is filled with promise and is a desert of guarantees. Ben Franklin once famously answered a witness to a hot air balloon who asked, “What good is it?”

Franklin responded, “What good is a newborn baby?”

We can run to the future or we can run from it, but either way it is coming to a life near you. These inventions and improvements will be made somewhere, so why not here? Why not a program to put Americans to work building the green infrastructure that we will need in the coming century? Why not build a new system that will devalue the old and make resource wars unnecessary? Why not build a new industrial base of green technologies that will enrich our lives and revitalize our economy?

The space program in its heyday cost every American fifty cents a week. Twenty-four dollars a year. Less than the cost of oil increases. Less than the cost of wars and instead to build something that is uniquely ours, to reclaim our rightful seat as the world’s leader in technology. In 1969 the world watched in awe and admiration; not because we could launch missiles from far away to destroy targets but because we could do something most thought impossible. It was Franklin’s newborn baby taking its first small step.

We have a unique opportunity here. If our economy were prosperous and the job market strong, we would have no chance at achieving the goal. But because we are in need and our economy is weak and our jobs are evaporating, we have a chance to marshal the resources necessary. The profit is in the potential; there is no future for buggy whip makers or home coal delivery or the iceman. The future is coming. Shall we be its servant or its master?

Do we still mean to be a part of it and to lead it? Or shall we see the future governed by a hostile flag? Can we dream the dreams and unleash the power of our minds to build a better future for our children? Or shall we armor those children to fight for the scraps of yesterday’s bread?

Kennedy did not live to see men on the moon, but he was certain that we would arrive there. Just as Ben Franklin was certain that what he was witnessing was but a glimpse of the future. We have a future to be embraced just as a mother holds her child, and not to be feared like a stranger at the door. To release to roam free the most powerful weapon on earth we have under our control, the human mind.

“For time and the world do not stand still. Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or the present are certain to miss the future.” (John F. Kennedy)
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Thanks!
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 09:56 AM by rucky
:thumbsup:

and my apologies for the snideness.
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blossomstar Donating Member (772 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Inspiring. Thanks for posting.
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mimitabby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
35. boy, you brought out the bicyclist haters!
There are more motorists breaking laws daily than there are cyclists period.
Cycling is good for the environment AND your health. So be safe and have fun.


Dave, you missed another good point.
During the Depression, people still knew how to do stuff. Your grandfather probably knew how to tear a car completely apart and repair the engine. If your toaster broke, he could put a new plug on it or solder the pieces back together.

Today, a young man is unusual if he knows how to change the flat tire on his car. for this reason i believe as things get worse, people will truly be in dire straights. None of them know anything practical (name that tree or wild bush!) and when they can replace their computer's hard drive, god help them if they get into 1000 other jams.

- another old lady
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aaronbav Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #35
49. One big problem today (as I see it) is that things are now DESIGNED to NOT
be user serviceable - most things - especially auto related, now take a myriad of _usually_ expensive equipment and special knowledge to service.

It was DESIGNED and ENGINEERED to keep people from being able to service things themselves and keep a revenue stream going for those who have the specialized knowledge - or simply chuck the old for the new and not have to bother with the EXPENSE of very COSTLY repair.

Case in point: for my 2000 model year Galant (Mitusibi), I was quoted $2000 to replace four strut/shock assemblies! In the old days with shock absorbers, I could do it myself - NOT so with today's cars.

It became a moot point a couple of months later when the engine/head blew.

So as a replacement I bought a used VW Jetta with 36000 miles - Cool I think - relatively new car w/ LOW milage - minimal expense - so I thought - everything on this car is more expensive than even the PRIOR years Jetta (05's). And now I need brake work - of course ALL 4 WHEELS are the much more expensive DISK brakes - My experience is that DRUM brakes ALWAYS lasted much longer than Disk - On my Galant I went through I don't know HOW man sets of front DIsk, but NEVER had to replace the rear DRUM brakes. Honestly IMHO newer IS NOT always better :-(
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #49
61. Disk brakes work MUCH better then drums, so they wear quicker. And BTW
Disk brakes are easier and faster to change out then drum brakes are.

You probably don't know that so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
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wilt the stilt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #49
74. There is more to this story
I have owned VW's for years. Brakes should last minimally 60,000 miles and most likely 80-90,000 miles. I just replaced mine at 90,000. Today's cars wear out breaks evenly as opposed to the old days when the fronts took all the wear. The rotors today cannot be turned but if you wanted to spend an afternoon changing them it is relatively easy. You just need someone to help you bleed them

Last but not least the person who sold you the car probably drove with both feet and probably rode the brakes. if you start with a manual shift and drive that correctly you probably will get an extra 20,000 on your brakes whether you drive an automatic or a manual.
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LittleOne Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #49
89. No kidding... even I could do auto repair
20 years ago I was standing inside the whatever you call the ares where the engine is of my beloved 68 Ford Falcon doing my own repairs while my mechanic buddies would instruct me from the comfort of their lawn chairs. I did my own master cylinder, brake jobs, tune ups, etc. And I am a female with no mechanical ability. Damn I miss that car.
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Wanet Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #49
96. Very good point
Manufactured goods are designed to be repaired only by a professional, or are just unrepairable by you or by anyone, so you have to toss it and buy a new one.
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8 track mind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #35
64. hey mimitabby
i love this comment:

"Your grandfather probably knew how to tear a car completely apart and repair the engine. If your toaster broke, he could put a new plug on it or solder the pieces back together."


truer words have never been spoken, and you brought back a flood of good memories for me. both sets of my grandparents could fix anything. They all lived through the depression and later worked in the oil fields of central Oklahoma. I never got to meet my grandpa on my dads side, he died long before i was born. But my dad taught me everything he taught him from house repair to car repair.

My Grandpa on my mothers side was a lot of fun to be around. One of my earliest memories was him teaching me how to clean spark plugs. Man i had to be 8 or 9 years old. He had this really cool junk pile that was out behind the workshop in which he would occasionally raid for parts. He used to encourage me to get stuff out of the pile and take it apart to "see how it ticks". They came to visit us one time and he brought me an old chassis from a TV. That was pretty freakin' cool!

Dad worked for an electrical distributor and when something was outdated or dead and not servicable, he would bring it to me to take it apart. You would not believe just how many gears are in a power meter that sits on the side of your house :rofl:

When i got my first car, i couldn't wait to get my hands on it to start fixing it up.

All of this led to a hardcore desire for cars, small and big engines, electronics, motorcycles, and most importantly, the desire to LEARN!


The kids i see in my neighborhood today just simply do not care. All they are concerned about is the latest gaming console and when mom and dad are going to buy them a car.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #64
77. Ahhh, yes, the desire to learn...
We have a home water distiller. About five years ago one of the parts became corroded. Ordering the part was the easy part. Finding someone to install it was difficult. We finally found an old German man who repaired small appliances in his garage. He did a great job & charged us a pittance.

Recently, we noticed another part that needed to be replaced. The old guy isn't around anymore & we were unable to find anyone who does that kind of work. So we did it ourselves. We're computer geeks, & not mechanically inclined at all, but we figured if we could learn how to program, we could figure out how this appliance was wired. The instructions were marginal, & the place where the part goes was small & tight, so there was quite a bit of frustration, but we finally got the new part in, with the new wiring, & the distiller is humming along nicely.

Our new goal - upgrade our toolbox & invest in some 'how to' books.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #64
97. "the kids....today..."
This is where I take umbrage - this is true for many kids, but it was also true for many kids of past generations. I know a lot of DIYers of every age and class and I know a lot of people who aren't. I just think that people who romanticize the past and say "the kids today.." forget that some things are actually better now and some worse. Sure, people were friendlier back in the 50s but that's mainly if you were a white male.

There are plenty of other things. People during the Great Depression may have had some basic skills, but they were also pitifully ignorant of many things which can make a difference that are fairly common knowledge now.
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Daveparts still Donating Member (614 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #35
90. Yes he did
My Grandfather could do a front end alignment on the Model T. All you needed to do was measure the distance and cut a stick to use as a guide. Which he did and my grandmother put lumps on his head for using her good broom to do it with.

He once brought home a barrel of waste oil and put it in the attic. Then he ran a copper tube down to the coal stove. The oil would drip into the fire and add heat. Occasionally, the oil would accumulate and then a big drop would hit the fire with a boom. Then one night a big drop collected and as it fell created a vacuum. My father said that it sounded like a bomb went off and my Grandmother made him remove the waste oil drip from the house the next day.

The cars were simpler then,you could take a model T apart with a couple of wrenches. My Grandfather was an iron worker and could get the scrap wide leather belts that they used to run machinery. He brought these home and resoled shoes with them.

My Father built a bicycle out of pieces he found in the dump. His first job was selling liquor bottles to bootleggers for five cents each. Then one day he went to the door and a policemen answered and he turned his little wagon around and went home.

His brother had the job of quality control inspector on a moonshine still. They ran the still in the basement of an abandoned house and could run the still only at night. At night the cops could smell it but couldn't find it.My uncle did such a good job testing the quality of the liquor that he fell asleep and the still blew up! Never let be said that when you give a Cox a job they won't apply themselves!
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
56. We are missing the window of opportunity.
hubby and I have had that discussion many times and do not understand why a strong green program has not been put into place.
We would solve so many problems that our country and economy is now facing.
This and Single Payer are two things we could put in place that would improve many lives, yet those that need and would benefit the most fight against it.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. Without awareness, without knowledge, there is NO insight and there are no solutions.
Someone has to describe it for those of us who are too short-sighted, busy, pre-occupied, or indifferent to observe and interpret what is happening around us.

We are lucky that we have the David Glenn Cox's of the world to enlighten us so we can work on solutions.

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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
93. And I wish that those whining for others to come up with solutions for them...
... would instead buck up, take stock of the situation (which is where Cox's piece has real value) and try to come up with their own solutions.

Personally, I think that Glenn Cox's piece carries several solutions, but you have to be able and willing to read between the lines, as well as think out of the box, in order to find them.
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
5. I believe the worst is yet to come. I grew up
during the Great Depression and well remember what people went through including my own family. My children who are in their 40s and 50s listen to me tell about it, but I can tell they don't believe me. You have done a useful and informative narration of just what it was. Thanks for that.
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FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
10. we could probably each share similar stories
My grandma sewed floursacks into dresses for my mother, took in laundry and sold eggs from their chickens on the side of the rural road...and that was even with a husband who had a job with the railroad, they were still destitute.

yes, our society is so far removed from itself that we have no clue how to survive, much less get along.

and the winter of our discontent is only just beginning...
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
11. Excuse me for unrecommending this
I don't disagree with all of it, but it's laughably simplistic.

For one thing, there were no good old days, and violent crime is not necessarily worse now than then. I see a lot of trends which fly in the face of what you're saying, and having lived in cities for the last couple of decades, they are not a new phenomenon, nor are people in the country inherently nicer or less violent.

And as a bicyclist and scooterist, while I agree that car drivers sadly don't pay attention very well to anything smaller than a Hummer, I disagree that our roads are not built for these vehicles. The drivers are the problem, and frankly the more of us on the road there are, the better it is for our visibility.

Sorry - the general thrust of your article may be true, but rings as feel good nostalgia and worse to me.
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Daveparts still Donating Member (614 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. I recently
saw a white haired man on a womens bike with two milk crates wired on the back and loaded with groceries. A sports enthusiast?

He was riding down a four lane road with a fifty mile per hour speed limit.
Now there is a dead peasant policy to buy.

I worked with a retired man at the polls last year who had just bought a Chinese made scooter to get around on. Top speed fifty miles per hour, here in Atlanta they do 50 on the sidewalk and in parking lots.

With more and more people trying to make ends meet you will see more and more with little experience on scooters and bikes. Not the young and athletic but the weak with bad eyes.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. both of those situations are bad
but riding a bicycle on a 4 lane highway is just stupid, and there are probably other routes.

Again, the problem seems to lie with the bad drivers not paying attention. I don't recall anywhere saying I was a sports enthusiast - I started riding a bike because I could not afford a car.
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
57. Well the only way to get to most grocery stores in the burbs of Atlanta,
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 08:12 PM by unapatriciated
is via a four lane highway (92) sidewalks are mostly non-existent here. Next year they are widening the road in front of our home, to ease congestion on two major four lane roads that are east and west of us. Since they were taking a big chunk of our property we asked about sidewalks and bike lanes.
We were told it was too expensive. The county rep. kept telling us how this project was for our benefit, it would make it safer for us. Yeah right.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. ok, I guess since I am not a 'burbs resident, I am being a bit flippant
If it helps, I think those non-sidewalk areas are a blight on culture and humanity.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
31. IMO, The Depression has already arrived for many Americans--but you won't see THEM in the M$M.
:(
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. I'm not disagreeing with that part, mostly
Although i do think that for many Americans it has not gotten as bad as that yet, BUT I do disagree with most rose-colored "everything is worse now than it used to be" type of things, specifically the articles discussion of how urban life is inherently worse than country life. Having lived both, I am not sure I agree. Sure, there is more opportunity for crime in cities, but there's an undercurrent of danger in the country for anyone who does not fit in/belong.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. Unpossibles, I live in a place where bicycling is ubiquitous. Many bicyclists are ignorant and
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 02:56 PM by bertman
arrogant, and act as if rules of the road do not apply to them. No wonder so many of them end up splattered on the roadway.

And, yes, I have been a bicyclist myself, riding to work and back and all over town, day and night. One thing I recognized early on was that it was my responsibility to bike defensively if I wanted to stay alive. In our state, the law says bicycles must follow the same traffic rules as automobiles. What a joke.

The young and immortal are the worst offenders. Yet they are the ones who curse you if you don't see them trying to pass you on the right. We have bike lanes and the dipshits still can't stay in them.

Darwin Awards candidates.





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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
40. They've long been a law unto themsleves in Edinburgh. I've always
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 04:58 PM by Joe Chi Minh
thought they probably saw themselves as "greener" than the motorists (who pay the tax for the maintenance of the roads, and some...), yet they're the young undergaduate types from well-heeled families who'll be buying the gas-guzzlers as soon as they can afford it. That's tarring them all with the same brush, but there's enough truth in it.

I get the impression you're something of a bit of an elitist, unpossibles, not short of a few dollars. Am I right?
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dgibby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
13. Agreed.
I'm 63, my parents both grew up on farms (Va and W.Va) during the depression, and that's what saved them. They knew how to grow their own food, make clothes, quilts, even feather tics and pillows from down plucked from the ducks, geese, and chickens they raised. Not a scrap of anything was wasted.

I have letters written in pencil on both sides and around the margins of any piece of paper available. I have "crazy" quilts made from old clothes and feed sacks. It's amazing to think about the ingenuity of these folks, and I'm so glad I had enough sense to listen to their stories of survival Even though I don't have the skill sets they did, I do know what to do.

I'm in the process of stockpiling a 6mo supply of food and necessary supplies, as well as stuff that can be used for bartering. I'm planning on moving back to my hometown where I still have friends and relatives for support. The only reason I'm not already there is because of the housing market, but if things get really bad, I'll just walk away and leave it (NOT my first choice-just if all else fails)

For anyone interested, Google "sustainable living". There are many helpful artices and web sites devoted to this subject. Another good source is the magazine, Mother Earth News. Good luck. We're going to need it.

Excellent article, but depressing (no pun intended). Thanks!
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
15. Link:
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
16. People Are a Lot More Mean and Stupid Nowadays--Intentionally
Stupidity is a sin against humanity and a crime against Nature. Nature has a brutal way of dealing with stupidity, though, so it shouldn't be much of a problem after a year or so. The wilfully stupid will either be dead or have smartened up immeasurably.

It's the meanness, though. There isn't much of a cure built in for meanness--except shunning or capital punishment, which is degrading to other people. I do not subscribe to the theory of healing kindness, having seen it fail miserably over and over again and in much less stressful situations.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. and a me-first mentality

Granted, not all people are me-first, but there seems to be a generation of young people who have never learned any life-skills. Everything has been handed them, whatever thy want. When the economy gets worse, and it will, how will these young people figure out they won't have mommy and daddy to feed them, that they will probably have to help grow food to feed not only them, but mommy and daddy too. Everyone will need to share and help others, in whatever way they can.



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The Hope Mobile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
20. I have a theory about the job losses . . .
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 01:26 PM by The Hope Mobile
Its probably seriously over-simplified because this kind of this is not my forte but I remember during W's mis-administration reading about an effort to control public perception by altering the way they reported job losses, essentially saying that after a certain amount of time on the list of unemployed, people dropped off . . . maybe being re-categorized as unemployable . . . which gave the appearance that W had gotten that recession under control because the number dropped and wasn't growing as it had before . . . now, I recently read that unemployment numbers have been readjusted up. Has the Obama administration just adjusted back to the more accurate way of reporting these figures?

I wonder what the impact is of that? I'm a strong believer that consumer confidence has a swift and significant impact on the economy. Obviously, I'm not saying that this is THE driving force behind this recession/depression but its a contributor. I think things were turning around with the energy and enthusiasm of Obama's inauguration but now that there have been so many roadblocks (whether external or self imposed) that people are losing faith in our ability to turn this around. Recent unemployment news has exacerbated that. People are getting more desperate and there is so much ideological division, mistrust and paranoia after the last administration that I tend to agree that things could become MUCH uglier this time around. This causes me (and many of us here I'm guessing) to be even more upset and frustrated about the amount of societal schisms caused by Bush/Cheney/McCain/Palin and the RW nuts who are still pushing that line of thinking with no regard for the greater impact on our society/nation.

How anyone thinks something good can come from the ugly pursuit of this hateful and divisive thinking is beyond me. I guess that touches on the education issue that was just brought up too. Its like the right wing has been training their people how to collapse their society on itself. There were greedy people who took advantage of others back then too but we're much more survivalistic/animalistic now than we were then. Our ethical code is much more blurred and deteriorated. This is what makes me worry for our children's futures. How can they not realize the long term effect of this "approach"?
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. The Hope Mobile, I'm pretty sure that your theory about the O administration changing
the methodology of recording the unemployed is incorrect.

Imagine if future statisticians had looked at the books for the week before Dubya left office and seen a six percent unemployment rate, then one week later saw an official 10 percent rate. Even President Obama isn't ready to take on that burden. By now we'd be in the mid-teens.

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The Hope Mobile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. Actually it was in the last week or so and they (the WH) said that they were adjusting the
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 04:22 PM by The Hope Mobile
way that they were tracking unemployment which is why the figures were higher than originally stated. They didn't explain further HOW they were changing it but I'm wondering if they basically are moving back to the more accurate way that the Clinton administration (and everybody before them) reported it . . .

I also remember reading, maybe in Clinton's book, about how he basically covered up how bad the real numbers were after the first Bush's mis-administration . . . stating that he didn't want to cause total panic by having people realize the seriousness of the situation then.

Stats are easy to manipulate to suit your purpose. I'd like to think that Obama is adjusting it back to reality because he has some integrity but since the adjustment wasn't a HUGE change I believe they've got to do it gradually. I also believe that the mid teens IS a more accurate figure for the unemployment rate. I know a LOT of people who are struggling.

Thanks for your input

:hi:
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #20
39. You Want to Read This Thread, Then
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Fearless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
21. You can't equate two vastly different eras like this.
This is essentially sour grapes fear mongering. Yeah, things aren't great, but they don't understand what the 1930's were like.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
46. That's what they're saying: you can't equate them, because the anomie
in the US is so much greater, after so many years of neo-liberal barbarity.

Young people today (in the UK, too), would be very resentful that they have been robbed by the politicians across the board of the kind of lives the baby-boomers enjoyed, while in the case of the US, their country was supposed to be the richest in the world.

In the US, the thoroughly wicked travesty of Christianity peddled by a certain type of televangelist and kindred far right-wing politicians has not done a lot to endear recent generations of Americans to the Christian faith of their grandparents, either. And that has an effect on a society. In the UK, we are reading of crimes which, in the forties, fifties, even sixties, were unheard of - some committed by children in primary schools, including rapes of both kinds; simply because we no longer have an over-arching Christian culture, but we do have hardcore pornography and drugs that children can get access to, and a general moral relativism from the very top, down.

Of course there were villains in those earlier decades of all kinds, but even professional villains, it seems, were sufficiently social creatures to observe the prevailing taboos. There were things that just couldn't have been imagined by them, like a drug-addled yob urinating on a woman dying in her doorway (the poison flower of twenty-five years of neo-liberal government), violent attacks made by young people, mostly I think on another young person, simply to video it on a mobile phone, etc, etc.

On the political level, the right-wing government of the last thirty years have been responsible for mass homelessness, although it started with a woman and her fellow degenerates, who grew up in an era in which criminality had not been democratised. Always, our press barons have been among the country's most destructive malefactors. Anyway, it's a different world, and if you don't believe that, you cannot have grown up in the forties and fifties, or indeed, in earlier decades.
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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #46
62. "Christian Culture" will not cure what ails Britain. If you understood American better
it would be more apparent to you. Much of our violent crime and sexually deviant behavior comes straight out of our "Christian" organizations. I came from such a backoground and saw time and again as much or more pedophilia in "good moral Church people" as in secular society. In fact if they ever do a full study I belive they would find a very high level of such crimes in the "evangelical/fundamentalist" side of our Christianity here.

There are very secular societies with fairly strong moral systems.

It is interesting that Britain is in the top 5 of countries with the most violence and rape per capita, just as the US is. It seems much more like the US than like Europe.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #62
81. You're right about the similarity between our countries in the level of their.
degeneracy. It mirrors our barbaric repudiation of Social Democracy, doesn't it? And the democratisation of evil by the left. Though, incidentally, you are quite right about some secular societies, aren't you? Communist countries eschewed pornography and I believe, officially at least, prostitution.

However, the thing about the pedophilia in the fundamentalist churches and to some extent the Catholic Church, is the patriarchal, authoritarian aspect, exploited by the villains on much the same grounds as psychopaths often favour working in other caring professions. The combination of a formal patriarchal authority and a sacred office discourages any challenge to either.

Yet the whole point of Christ's priesthood and sacrifice is that a separation between the sacred and profane among Christians no longer exists. How can there be a higher priesthood than the "royal priesthood" of all Christians? As Peter put it, "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellence of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light."

If we are a people "set apart", as mentioned elsewhere in scripture (maybe of the Israelites in the OT), it should be by virtue of the intensity with which we IDENTIFY with our fellow human beings. Ordination, after all is not an accolade, but a call. How the ordained minister then responds to that call is all important. If Judas, an Apostle, was not guaranteed entry to heaven, surely, it is fair to assume that that clergy are not either. In scripture, even the Apostles were referred to as "elders", rather than "priests"; an interesting hold-over from the Judaism from which Christianity springs, since it denotes simply "seniority". Similarly, the term, "the president" (presiding over the eucharist), to which St Justin referred, and I believe I may have seen in the NT recently: a leader, but not belonging to a separate caste. So, given the problematical ascription of a special designation, "priest" to elders, the quotation in the ceremony of holy orders of the passage, "You are a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedek and for ever", does not seem propitious.

As St Paul, the Apostle, put it: Always the same Spirit working in all sorts of different ways in different people. It's interesting that Paul can sound a little paternalistic in some passages (though if anyone earned the right, it was surely he), addressing his listeners directly in the second person, "you", while in these passages, quoted in the breviary, he uses "we", "us", the first person. As regards the priest becoming Christ during the act of consecration, how can any man be other than another Christ by adoption? He surely cannot become Christ in his own right, even if his own identity were to be completely nullified.

Pedophiles are said to be cunning and manipulative, so it's perhaps not so easy to filter them out during their training in the seminaries, but unfortunately the paternalistic culture, ensuing from what I believe is a distorted theology of the priesthood, not based on scripture, which seems to have paralysed the most genuinely compassionate and holy Church leaders, bishops, etc, so that they sought to sweep it under the carpet.

The bitterest of bitter ironies, to my mind, is that I would bet my life on their own heroic chastity, denying themselves any sexual activity, right down to masturbation. So, here you had men of heroic chastity perversely trying to cover up for people who brought them nothing but obloquy and shame in return, as well as betraying them and betraying their own flocks. Very, very sad. Not least because it is routinely exploited by people who favour sexual licence of all kinds, many not being fit to lick their boots.

But remember, that same Church, indeed probably some of those former apologists for hushing such things up, spend their lives, as well as ministering to their parishioners' spiritual needs at home, also working for peoples in foreign lands, sometimes organising trade-unions and political oppositions (even, on occasions, at the cost of their lives), but always, good or bad, teaching eternal truths about human nature and its higher calling.

And personally, I don't have the slightest doubt that an over-arching Christian culture, while never making any of us perfect, and most of us not nearly perfect, contained many of the potential evils in our societies, which are now being manifested in ways we could never have even imagined when we were young.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #62
83. The superposition of Communism on Confucianism seemed to lead to
Edited on Tue Oct-06-09 04:34 PM by Joe Chi Minh
some wonderful qualities about Chinese society, generally, on that social level, which is so important to all societies. What it didn't seem to be able to do - unsurprisingly to Christians - is to develop a sense of personal empathy beyond the human sphere. I'm thinking of their idea of a family "fun" day out, being to watch live cows, calves, deer, etc being thrown to lions, tigers, etc.

But then maybe Western degeneracy has already taken hold in double-quick time, or the photos of their gleefully watching such spectacles was actually just some far right-wingers, now jubilantly out of the closet and celebrating.
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
51. It has a ring of "kids today just can't do depressions like we did"
It ignores all of the programs that came out of that Depression. They are flawed for sure but better than nothing:
Social Security
FDIC bank insurance
Medicaid
Medicare
WIC
A safety net with holes but a safety net that didn't exist in the early 1930s.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #51
78. What guarantee will these programs continue?

The U.S. is broke, and going deeper in debt every day. More people are losing jobs, thus paying less income taxes, less FICA, etc. With a decrease in the tax base, how can these programs continue?

http://www.usdebtclock.org/


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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #51
87. Thank you
And they fail to remember that the Great Depression was one of several which happened in the century leading up to that.

To me it mostly sounded like "the kids of today..." as you state, mixed with "people in cities..."
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
22. Thank you, you've stated it well.
My father's family was one of those who weathered out the depression on hte family farm, taking in relatives to keep them from starving as well. Those days were recalled to us when we were young by older realtives during get-togethers. Some were funny, like the horses, Nip and Tuck who would get tired of pulling a plow and would run off to the river. Or the story of my uncle's goat who butted everybody while my uncle laughed (punch line: one day the goat butted the uncle and they ate goat stew for 3 days). Some were a bit more dire, dealing with floods and hunting for protein, living on some of the weirdest wildlife, straight from the beverly hillbillies.

Many people, old and young aren't ready for any of this. I consider myself lucky that I was taught to sew, mend, knit, quilt and embroider at an early age by the depression's survivors. I have amassed tools I need, canning pots, pressure cookers, a standard sewing machine...and a treadle one. I went into cooking after partially pursuing an art degree in the 80's. Many other cooks I knew at the time, felt the same way, if it gets too bad, we know how, and when we work we always get a meal.


I hope I never gain the emnity for blackberries that my father had. I eye the bushes out my backdoor that I causally harvest for a lark in august and wonder what it would be like to REALLY have to use them...
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Gman2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
23. Yeah, well just think if the Rethugs steal the 10, or 12 elections?
How do you think the mouth foaming freaks, that hate our guts, will treat us? How will they rig it to deny us voice? It can get a lot more deadly.
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #23
69. Repugs steal 2010/2012 elections?
So, how do you expect their policies to differ from Obama's? I'm all ears.

(Another one who knows how to garden, sew, make do, and who buys local when at all possible so we hopefully have some community infrastructure.)
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
26. Thanks DP! When you see what FEMA did to the survivors of the City Of NO in
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 02:45 PM by truedelphi
The wake of Katrina - it is really scary.

The citizens who had firearms were much safer than citizens without. I researched some of the backdrop for the FEMA "grab" or weapons and it was scary.

Thugs in some neighborhoods used Back hoes to knock in the doors of people who were stranded (once the water wsn't deep.) Those households with guns could stay safe - those without could not.

Then after all this is over, FEMA arrives to "restore order" And they are out there in the neighborhoods, wrestling little old ladies to the ground, becuase they didn't want to give up their protectionary weapons.

My personal history resembles yours in certain ways - I am old enough to mentally construct an overlay just as you are doing. And sadly, I have come up with the same conclusions. (BTW my dad rode out the Depression in the city of Chicago - same as your mom did.)

Obama is a double speaking tool, and little more than that. His people have given away the next two generations of money to the banksters - so that the rich truly are recovering, while the poor are not. And never will. Whereas Rooseveldt warned "It is better to associate with families of organized crime than to asssociate with families of organized banking!" Obama considers Geithner his best friend, and Timmy has an office in the WH.


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tomm2thumbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
27. let's call it the 'Super-Great Depression' so it has its own identity
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
30. Thank-you.
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 03:12 PM by ShortnFiery
I'm fully empathetic with your experiences and family background above.

"My parents were the youngest children in their respective families and I am the youngest child in my family."

I can say the same. My beloved Grandmother died at the age of 96 y.o. when I was merely 16.

My poor dad was the youngest by 20 years. He says that he wasn't his mom's favorite child because he was born when she was 40 y.o. and he weighed 12 lbs at birth (1919). He grew to be 6'5" tall.

I remember his stories about The Depression on the Plains of the Dakotas. He was sent North to Rapid City, SD when he turned 16 y.o. to work for the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC). He earned $25/month. $20 was sent back to his family on the farm and he was allowed to keep $5. Still he said those days before WWII were "good times."

He often laughed when he repeated some of his favorite quips, "We were so poor that my father made me run along side of the rabbits and feel their ribs before I dare waste bullets on them for dinner ... Why do I have so many shoes NOW? I love shoes that fit! My dad made me buy mine three sizes too big because I was always growing out of them. Now, I can buy all my size and they're just for me - size 13AA." :wow:
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Lost Jaguar Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
32. Pinto beans, brown rice, and canned vegetables...
...in the cellar. Oatmeal, corn bread mix in the kitchen cupboard. Extra blankets for the coming winter. Prayers for the unenlightened to become enlightened on my lips. Malice toward none, charity for all. Bracing for the hard times.

Thanks yet again, good sir.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #32
79. "Malice toward none, charity for all."
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Welcome to DU, Lost Jaguar. :hi:

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Lost Jaguar Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #79
88. Thanks for the welcome.
After years of lurking, I was finally prompted to join by my great admiration of Daveparts' writings. I am a reformed right-winger; once a small L-libertarian and armchair Cold-Warrior, who was ushered leftwards by my dear wife. Our mutual conversion to Buddhism facilitated my realization of the moral vacuity of the right wing.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
33. Thanks, Barack Obama. You are doing so much so quickly to help................
.......................the poor, working people and downtrodden. You have done so much for people losing their homes, regulating the banking industry, and especially giving ALL Americans low cost healthcare. Thanks Obama, for the change we can believe in.:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
34. Horrifying and deeply moving. The Grapes of Wrath revisited.
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
36. You forgot to mention that little thing called World War 2 between the 30's and 50's...
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 04:13 PM by file83
I'm not trying to pick nits, but underscore your overall point of why this time around it'll be worse.

The New Deal was great and helped from the bottom up, but WW2 was major factor in the economic recovery we saw in the 50's and it started from the top-down. The technology being developed by the war really launched us into the 20th century.

Point being, for a long time all these regional, on-going conflicts have to be "settled" before the economy can recover. That will only happen if there is some sort of World War. The status quo is just too unstable.

Not that I want that to happen, but it just seems the deck wants to be reshuffled.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #36
47. No, interfering in conflicts in other regions is bankrupting the country.
It's not the space-programme by other means.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #36
68. World War III would be disastrous for the USA - we gave up our MANUFACTURING base.
Edited on Tue Oct-06-09 07:42 AM by ShortnFiery
The USA would be ISOLATED with it's masses of people living in ABJECT POVERTY. :(
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #36
94. WW2 was not about "regional" conflicts -- it was about imperial ones.
Germany was making a last-gasp at acquiring their own empire as the British and French had done previously.

Japan was emulating the nations of Western Europe in building their own Pacific empire, which brought them into direct conflict with the United States' own imperial interests in that part of the world.

All of this was before the advent of atomic weapons. That was the game-changer that prevented the US and USSR from ever breaking out into open conflict over their opposing imperial dreams and worldviews.

Furthermore, the one thing that you fail to mention that is of utmost importance in the technological advances of the 20th century is ENERGY. During that entire period of centralization and innovation, our energy usage boomed. However, now that energy supplies around the world are going into decline, I don't see how the center will be able to hold much longer. Without strong, centralized political and economic systems, I don't see a "recovery" of the economy in the typical sense, although the prospect for war may become greater, with possibly disastrous results. :nuke:
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NeoGreen Donating Member (299 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
37. It will be known as the Greater Depression not the 2nd Great Depresion n/t
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wuvuj Donating Member (874 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
41. Your govt knows?

http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/three-government-reports-point-to-fiscal-doomsday-3-35720


When our leaders have no awareness of the disastrous consequences of their actions, they can claim ignorance and take no action.

Or when our leaders have no hard evidence as to what might happen in the future, they can at least claim uncertainty.

But when they have full knowledge of an impending disaster … they have proof of its inevitability in ANY scenario … and they so declare in their official reports … but STILL don’t lift a finger to change course … then they have only one remaining claim:

INSANITY!

And, unfortunately, that’s precisely the situation we’re in today: Three recently released government reports now point to fiscal doomsday for America; and one of the reports, issued by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), says so explicitly:

* The CBO paints two future scenarios for the U.S. budget deficit and the national debt. But it plainly declares that fiscal disaster will strike in EITHER scenario. Furthermore …

* The CBO states that its fiscal disaster scenarios could cause severe economic declines for decades to come, including hyperinflation and destruction of retirement savings.

* The CBO then proceeds to admit that even its worse-case scenario could be understated by a wide margin due to panic in the financial markets or vicious cycles that are beyond control.

* Separately, in its Flow of Funds Report for the second quarter, the Federal Reserve provides irrefutable data that we are already beginning to witness the first of these consequences in the United States: an unprecedented cut-off of credit to businesses and consumers.

* Meanwhile, the Treasury Department shows that America’s fate remains, as before, in the hands of foreigners, with the U.S. still owing them $7.9 trillion!

* And despite all this, neither Congress nor the Obama Administration have proposed a plan or a timetable for averting these doomsday scenarios. Their sole solution is to issue more bonds, borrow more, and print more without restraint.

That is the epitome of insanity.

Yes, the great government bailouts of 2008 and 2009 have bought us some time … but they have promptly proceeded to sell us into bondage.

Yes, they have given us safe passage over tough seas … but only to throw our assets onto the global auction block for the highest bidders.
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southernyankeebelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
42. I wonder what will happen when the rest of the people can't afford
to pay their bills. You can't bleed a out of a person when they aren't or can't find work. Then what in the hell are the republicans going to say than?
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #42
75. They will take us to the brink then at the last minute try to pull back . Market adjustments
This cycle went too far and the cushion are disappearing. Not even a good war will fix things, who wants to be surplus population? Guess the Oligarchy will have to settle for Socialism of their own making this time. Anyone know of a good socialist out there looking for a job?
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Q3JR4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
43. If the new depression pisses enough people off
about what's really going on, maybe Americans can get behind REAL change.

I don't know what else is going to do it. :shrug:

Which, I'd admit, is a very sad thing. :(

Q3JR4.
If voting changed anything they'd make it illegal.-Emma Goldman.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Like your signature line, though you seem not to have noticed that they did
make it illegal, with a little help from their friends the voting-machine manufacturers.
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Gman2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. You KNOW, as soon as we see substantial recovery, the thugs will get voted in, to cut taxes.
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Go2Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #53
63. Yep, without REAL change, I don't have much hope that it won't all come right back again
I am just hoping right now for one more 5 year expansion, during which I hope to get two jobs and save substantially, then, I hate to say it, but if we have not changed I want to get the hell out of dodge, because if we haven't made fundamental change soon the US will be hell on earth to live in.

While I imagine I could "survive", I can't imagine what it will be like in this country where we have all learned to look upon each other as "competition". When the shit hits the fan will we change and learn to support each other? I am not so sure, we have learned our previous lessons very well. Our children have little understanding of a functioning society. How can they build one from what we are leaving them?
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #63
76. Not a bad idea only one problem, when it goes here it goes everywhere.
Immigrants are not real popular anywhere.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #63
80. It's going to be very difficult
to rewrite the 'rugged individualist' mentality we have cultivated in this country. For too long, we have put the individual before community, ignoring the fact that an individual can only thrive in a healthy & robust community. Our communities are falling apart. We live on a cul-de-sac of six houses & we only know two of our neighbors. The others purposely look away if they are out front when we are. No acknowledgment whatsoever, not even a wave! The lack of community in our little cul-de-sac is a reflection of the same apathy in the bigger community.

Michael Moore summed it up perfectly in the movie "Sicko." We are a nation of ME, not WE.

Welcome to DU, Go2Peace. :hi:
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #53
82. It reminds me of Aneurin Bevan's words, "You realise that we are nurturing
people so that one day they will become Tories." Or words to that effect.
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #43
58. what do you think all these new dark laws are for ?
the ultra rich fought a battle and easily won. The middle and lower class didn't even know there was a fight. Once they realize what has happened there will be a state apparatus to deal with trouble makers. They won, they will now consolidate gains. There will be no FDR, there will be no new deal. We are screwed.
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
55. How fashionable!
Making a living predicting the doom of others.

OK, Glenn Cox is only predicting it, not helping directly to cause it.
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The River Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 02:31 AM
Response to Original message
65. Great Post, Thanks
As a one time homesteader I did it all myself for 20 years.
Raised my own food, built my own home, delivered my own kids,
etc. I was ready for the "next" depression 40 years too soon.
I guess my next "career" is to hire out as an expert in DIY survival.
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Mister Ed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 05:31 AM
Response to Original message
67. Why? Because I'll be in it! n/t
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
70. Thank you for that! n/t
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kegler14 Donating Member (541 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
71. Oh my Lord the sky is falling.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-07-09 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
86. this says a lot


;)
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