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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 10:47 AM
Original message
Using War as an Excuse for More War - Srebrenica Revisited
Once again an informative article by the distinguished journalist and author of "Fools' Crusade: Yugoslavia, NATO, and Western Delusions", at Counterpunch.



Using War as an Excuse for More War
Srebrenica Revisited

By DIANA JOHNSTONE

Last summer, almost the entire political spectrum in the Western world joined in a chorus of self-flagellation on the 10th anniversary of the Srebrenica massacre. The dominant theme was "nostra culpa": "we" let it happen, "we" didn't want to know about it, and "we" mustn't let it happen again.

Dear reader, who are "we" in this case? How in the world could "we" (you and I) have known or done anything about this at the time? And in fact, how much do "we" really know about it now? We know what we read in the newspapers or see on television. But how precise and accurate is that information? How do we know now that we are much better informed than we were before the event?

Such questions are virtually taboo. Srebrenica has become a sacred symbol of collective guilt, and to raise the slightest question is to be instantly condemned as an apologist for frightful crimes , or as a "holocaust denier".

A left that retains any capacity for critical thinking should regard the lavish public breast-beating over "Srebrenica" (the quotation marks indicate the symbol rather than the actual event) with a certain skepticism. If mainstream media commentators and politicians are so extraordinarily moved by "Srebrenica", this is because it has become an incantation to justify whatever future foreign war the U.S. government and media decide to sell under the label of "humanitarian intervention". ...




http://www.counterpunch.com/johnstone10122005.html


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11cents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. Disgusting
There's no atrocity that the shards of the old Stalinism won't excuse if the regime responsible can be remotely described as communist or anti-Western. Milosevic was a thug who preyed upon the Serbs and their neighbors, but he was once a Yugoslavian communist party functionary, so here comes Counterpunch to proffer up a defense, however incoherent. "Srebrenica" as a symbol instead of an event? That's just a cowardly pseudo-sophisticated way of avoiding talking about it as an event. Not only do we know now what happened there, we could see it happening as it occurred. The massacre was reported practically as it was occurring, contrary to this woman's claims. What could we have done to stop it? Not allowed civilians to be herded into "safe areas" which weren't kept safe, for starters.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. did you even read the article?
`
I'm under the impression that you did not.



... The general public did not know that Srebrenica, described as a "safe area", was not in fact simply a haven for refugees, but also a Muslim military base. The general public did not know what Lord Owen knew and recounted in his important 1995 book, Balkan Odyssey (p.143), namely that in April 1993, Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic was extremely anxious to prevent Bosnian Serb forces from overrunning Srebrenica. "On 16 April I spoke on the telephone to President Milosevic about my anxiety that, despite repeated assurances from Dr. Karadzic that he had no intention of taking Srebrenica, the Bosnian Serb army was now proceeding to do just that. The pocket was greatly reduced in size. I had rarely heard Milosevic so exasperated, but also so worried: he feared that if the Bosnian Serb troops entered Srebrenica there would be a bloodbath because of the tremendous bad blood that existed between the two armies. The Bosnian Serbs held the young Muslim commander in Srebrenica, Naser Oric, responsible for a massacre near Bratunac in December 1992 in which many Serb civilians had been killed. Milosevic believed it would be a great mistake for the Bosnian Serbs to take Srebrenica and promised to tell Karadzic so."



http://www.counterpunch.com/johnstone10122005.html

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11cents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I suspect I know more about this subject than you do.
I know that there were Muslim troops in the Srebrenica "safe area," crammed together with civilians. I know that there had been killings by Muslim troops of Serb civilians some time earlier, albeit they had been scavenging food for starving Muslim civilians. The Muslim military commander in the area has been accused of war crimes. Most of all, I know where all the horseshit lies in these tired pro-Milosevic apologetics which were apparently all new to you. "Lord Owen" -- funny how respectful of titles these leftbots can be when it suits them -- played an inglorious role in the whole story. It's apparent from intercepted transmissions that Milosevic was aware of and approved of the entry of Bosnian Serb troops in the "safe area." Just because "Lord Owen" believed his lie, just like he believed hundreds of others, doesn't mean we have to be that stupid. We know, as well, that some of the troops involved in the massacre weren't Bosnian Serbs; they were Serbs from *Serbia," under Milosevic's direct command. There's videotape of them committing the killings, for god's sake. The Serbs have accepted this; time for leftbots to do so as well.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. You do realize that your red baiting
and left bashing make it difficult to take your academic argument seriously?
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11cents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I'm a leftist.
As such, I'm not found of apologetics for people like Milosevic, from the authoritarians at Counterpunch.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Perfect example of what I was talking about. EOM
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11cents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. You're really not capable of making arguments, are you?
EOM. LOL.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. So anyone who doesn't argue with you cant make arguments?
Your logic remains strong I see.

I don't honestly feel it worth my time to make an argument here. You will certainly never agree with me, and I think the ridiculousness of your rhetoric is self-evident to anyone who doesn't share your particular sensibilities.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. care to share your knowledge?
If it is apparent to you "from intercepted transmissions that Milosevic was aware of and approved of the entry of Bosnian Serb troops in the 'safe area'", you should make these intercepts available to the Hague tribunal. The prosecution have so far failed to prove any of this, which is why they cling to the absurd construction of an alleged "joint criminal enterprise".

Trial archives:

http://www.domovina.net/archive/page_002.php?2005

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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. "leftbots"
Edited on Fri Oct-14-05 03:36 PM by reorg
This is supposed to be some kind of insult, I guess - although I don't quite understand it. Those on the left who support Diana Johnstone's writings explain very clearly what they are talking about - I cannot detect any preprogrammed "bot" activity here ...




On December 8th 2002, George Packer wrote the following in a New York Times Magazine article titled "The Liberal Quandary Over Iraq":

"Why there is no organized liberal opposition to the war?

"The answer to this question involves an interesting history, and it sheds light on the difficulties now confronting American liberals. The history goes back 10 years, when a war broke out in the middle of Europe. This war changed the way many American liberals, particularly liberal intellectuals, saw their country. Bosnia turned these liberals into hawks. People who from Vietnam on had never met an American military involvement they liked were now calling for U.S. air strikes to defend a multiethnic democracy against Serbian ethnic aggression. Suddenly the model was no longer Vietnam, it was World War II -- armed American power was all that stood in the way of genocide. Without the cold war to distort the debate, and with the inspiring example of the East bloc revolutions of 1989 still fresh, a number of liberal intellectuals in this country had a new idea. These writers and academics wanted to use American military power to serve goals like human rights and democracy -- especially when it was clear that nobody else would do it."

If George Packer's assertion is true, and I believe it is, then it becomes necessary to revisit the Yugoslavia events in the light of everything that has transpired over the past decade. As we move inexorably toward permanent warfare, naked imperialist rule and growing repression at home, the "turn" on the part of a broad sector of the left -- symbolized by Christopher Hitchens's mutation -- needs to be examined with a cold, clinical eye. The "humanitarian intervention" themes that were first raised on behalf of Bosnia crop up repeatedly. Not only were they used as an excuse to make war in the Balkans on two occasions, they have been used twice in Iraq as well. ...



http://www.swans.com/library/art9/lproy04.html






Diana Johnstone on the Balkan Wars

by Edward S. Herman

Diana Johnstone's Fools' Crusade: Yugoslavia, NATO and Western Delusions (Monthly Review Press, 2002) is essential reading for anybody who wants to understand the causes, effects, and rights-and-wrongs of the Balkan wars of the past dozen years. The book should be priority reading fOn the other hand, any attempt to counter the official/media team's claims and supposed evidence was quickly interpreted as apologetics. This is hardly new. In each U.S. war critics of U.S. policy are charged with being apologists for the demonized enemy—Ho Chi Minh and communism; Pol Pot; Saddam Hussein; Arafat; Daniel Ortega; Bin Laden, etc. The demonization of Milosevic was in accord with longstanding practice, and the charge of apologist for challenging the official line on the demon was inevitable for a forceful challenger. What is perhaps exceptional has been the extensive acceptance of the party line among people on the left, with, among others, Christopher Hitchens, <2> Ian Williams and the editors of The Nation in its grip. In These Times rejected first hand reporting from Kosovo by Johnstone, their longtime European Editor, when it diverged from the line of their more recent correspondent, Paul Hockenos, whose connections with the establishment included a stint as the spokesperson and media officer for the Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe Mission to Bosnia-Herzegovina, acting as an occupying power in northern Bosnia-Herzegovina, and an affiliation with the American Academy in Berlin, whose chairman and co-chairman are Richard Holbrooke and Henry Kissinger. <3>or leftists, many of whom have been carried along by a NATO-power party line and propaganda barrage, believing that this was one case where Western intervention was well-intentioned and had beneficial results. An inference from this misconception, by "cruise missile leftists" and others, is that imperialism can be constructive and its power projections must be evaluated on their merits, case by case. But that the Western intervention in the Balkans constitutes a valid special case is false; the conventional and obvious truths on the Balkan wars that sustain such a view disintegrate on close inspection.

(...)

... any attempt to counter the official/media team's claims and supposed evidence was quickly interpreted as apologetics. This is hardly new. In each U.S. war critics of U.S. policy are charged with being apologists for the demonized enemy—Ho Chi Minh and communism; Pol Pot; Saddam Hussein; Arafat; Daniel Ortega; Bin Laden, etc. The demonization of Milosevic was in accord with longstanding practice, and the charge of apologist for challenging the official line on the demon was inevitable for a forceful challenger. What is perhaps exceptional has been the extensive acceptance of the party line among people on the left, with, among others, Christopher Hitchens, <2> Ian Williams and the editors of The Nation in its grip. In These Times rejected first hand reporting from Kosovo by Johnstone, their longtime European Editor, when it diverged from the line of their more recent correspondent, Paul Hockenos, whose connections with the establishment included a stint as the spokesperson and media officer for the Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe Mission to Bosnia-Herzegovina, acting as an occupying power in northern Bosnia-Herzegovina, and an affiliation with the American Academy in Berlin, whose chairman and co-chairman are Richard Holbrooke and Henry Kissinger. <3>

(...)

Johnstone contends that the United States was a participant in the Balkan wars for a number of reasons, including the desire to maintain its role as leader of NATO and to help provide it with a function on its 50th anniversary year (celebrated in the midst of the 78-day bombing war in April 1999); if Germany and others were going to intervene in Yugoslavia, the United States would have to enter and play its role, and incidentally show that in the use of force it was still champion. The United States was also helping itself in its Bosnian intervention by demonstrating its willingness to aid Muslims, contradicting its image as anti-Muslim, and solidifying its relationship with Turkey and other Muslim countries helping in the Bosnian war. It was also positioning itself for further advances in the region with a major military base in Kosovo and new clients in an area of increasing interest with links to the Caspian basin. The humanitarian motive was contradicted by inherent implausibility and by the nature and inhumanitarian results of the U.S. and NATO intervention.



http://www.monthlyreview.org/0203herman.htm



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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. What an apt title for your post. EOM
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11cents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Rather a cowardly "response." EOM!
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Cowardly? ...right.
Edited on Fri Oct-14-05 12:46 PM by K-W
Sounds like someone is a little obsessed with machismo.

Under exactly what definition of the word cowardly does my insulting your post fall exactly?
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11cents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I'm female
So not "obsessed with machismo" in the way you think, at least.

Under my definition, it is cowardly to post a hit-and-run insult. You didn't say why you thought my "Disgusting" subject line was apt. Is it disgusting to think that Counterpunch is wrong?
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. And that relates to my post how?
A woman can be just as obsessed with machismo as a man, so I'm really not sure what you are talking about.

Under my definition, it is cowardly to post a hit-and-run insult. You didn't say why you thought my "Disgusting" subject line was apt. Is it disgusting to think that Counterpunch is wrong?

Except that I didnt post a hit and run insult. And insulting one of your posts isnt an act of cowerdice outside of your head.
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11cents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. You did post a hit-and-run insult.
Just look up above. Your whole response was the subject line, with no explanation or argument. You do acknowledge that the response was an insult. In my opinion, posting an insult without an argument is cowardly and childish; it indicates you lack the resolve to formulate your thoughts and put them up against mine. I'm not making any claims as to how widespread this opinion is "outside of my head." You seem to have enough problems with the fact that it's an opinion inside my head.

BTW, woman are not as rule "just as obsessed with machismo as a man." If you hadn't assumed I was male, you wouldn't have said I was "obsessed with machismo."
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. You are mistaken about what a hit and run post is.
A hit and run post is not a post with only a subject line, it is a post made by a user who then abandons the thread, leaving one post with no followup. Since I have stayed on this thread to respond to your followups, this is not a hit and run situation.

You do acknowledge that the response was an insult.

Well of course.

In my opinion, posting an insult without an argument is cowardly and childish;

An insult without an argument? Why would an insult require an argument? I didn't present a point that needed evidentiary support, I merely expressed my subjective opinion about your post. The fact that you cant handle that is your problem, not mine. You can call me childish if you like, thats fair I guess, the accusation of cowerdice remains quite far fetched.

it indicates you lack the resolve to formulate your thoughts and put them up against mine.

Actually it could potentially indicate all kinds of things. You can figure out for yourself why you jumped to this conclusion.

I'm not making any claims as to how widespread this opinion is "outside of my head." You seem to have enough problems with the fact that it's an opinion inside my head.

I have literally zero concern with what is inside your head.

BTW, woman are not as rule "just as obsessed with machismo as a man."

Since I never made any statements regarding women in general, Im not sure why you wrote this.

If you hadn't assumed I was male, you wouldn't have said I was "obsessed with machismo."

Except that this isnt at all true. I made no such assumption, and I said that without having gender in mind at all. Perhaps you should stop assuming that I make the same gender assumptions regarding machismo that you do.
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reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. Counterpunch
Is this some kind of, uh, theory of yours that Counterpunch is interested in "defending" Milosevic because he once was a "communist party functionary" even though he acted like a "thug" in your opinion?

Why on earth would they do that? And what other communist thugs do they defend?

Maybe it is from sheer ignorance, but I believe Counterpunch follows a pretty consistent editorial policy: undogmatic, non-aligned to any party, critical of wars of aggression and anti-social policies of any kind. Please point me to evidence of the contrary, if you happen to have it available.

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