Prof: "I am especially pleased that the killing...was a slow throttling."

[youspeakmylanguage]

SOMETHING THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT AND I AGREE ON

…I am especially pleased that the killing — and, yes, I am happy to call it a killing, a perfectly proper term for a perfectly proper act — was a slow throttling, and was preceded by a flogging...

…I like civilization, but some forms of savagery deserve to be met not just with cold, bloodless justice but with the deliberate infliction of pain, with cruel vengeance rather than with supposed humaneness or squeamishness...

Is this some pimply young weasel trying to make a name for himself in the radical right's blogosphere? Nope, this guy is a law professor at UCLA:

Eugene Volokh teaches free speech law, copyright law, the law of government and religion, and a seminar on firearms regulation policy at UCLA Law School...

Hat tip to Roy Edroso.

[Colorado Blue]

1. Whoa. Are we losing it or what? nt

[undergroundpanther]

7. Well

Some people are sociopaths and they can't feel the things people with a conscience feel that keep them from doing horrible crimes.
I think the impulse for vengeance comes from the fact sociopaths in their pursuit of domination don't have a conscience so they don't feel guilt,shame compassion the things that hold us back from doing awful things for"amusement" or power over. Since a sociopath can't feel love maybe they'll respond to torture..and finally feel for their victims pain.But I fear this ain't the case.

To torture a sociopath I think killing and torture sends them off in a feeling akin to orgasm.Because they don't feel emotion their relation to pain may be different than other people..I suggest instead,either just kill them dispassionately with no fanfare or drama.. or bore them to death. To bore them don't give them any stimulation they make like,no entertainment,nothing to do..nobody to pity them or compete with, or give them attention or creature comforts, don't give them any games to win or play to win.
Their own lack of emotions and a lack stimulation and inability to dominate,intimidate, abuse or bully anyone or anything,the lack of a potential victuim to hurt or scam, no games and competition with them....that would surely destroy them.

[Colorado Blue]

10. Interesting POV! I sort of like the calm, quiet method, ie

boring them. Torture - gag - I just can't see it, even though this person was clearly guilty of inflicting dreadful pain. Like the poster below I think that's part of the job of our social units, to protect us from bad people but also to keep us from acting like monsters!

I'm surprised, really, that this happened, it doesn't strike me as being true to the core of the Koran. Beheadings and such at least are fast and clean, at least when done professionally.

But then I'm learning things every day.

This professor - whoa -

[youspeakmylanguage]

12. Like a SuperMax prison...

[BanzaiBonnie]

13. Exactly!

Your take on this is right on.

I can understand the anger that a parent experiences at a child being abused. Also, allowing oneself to become a monster in return, in the name of revenge, does nothing but continue these cycles of abuse. Someone in that crowd is going to be conditioned to be sexually stimulated by the sadistic behavior and patterning that ensues.

When my daughter was five and was molested by a "family friend" I had to face the place in myself where I knew I could have killed someone. I had no real feeling for revenge, just to put this mad dog down. IMO, people who hurt children have no humanity left and deserve either a quick killing or isolated incarceration for life. If they are allowed back into society after time served -- if they have to serve any time at all -- there is always the chance they will offend again. And the odds are pretty high that they will.

I didn't do anything to him because I knew I would be caught and go to jail. Punishment as deterrent only works on sane people.

[Sandpiper]

2. I agree, and I think next time Professor Volokh gets a speeding ticket

He should be sodomized with a shard of glass.

[RC]

4. Gently, of course.

[youspeakmylanguage]

3. He's despicable...

...and judging by recent history, he'll probably be Dubya's first nominee to the Supreme Court.

[Igel]

5. The guy killed "at least 20 children".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4353449.stm

"An Iranian serial killer who murdered at least 20 children has been executed in front a large crowd of spectators.

Mohammad Bijeh, 24, dubbed "the Tehran desert vampire" by Iran's press, was flogged 100 times before being hanged.

...

The killer was hoisted about 10 metres into the air by a crane and slowly throttled to death in front of the baying crowd.

...

They reportedly tricked children to go with them into the desert south of Tehran by saying they were going to hunt animals. They then poisoned or knocked their victims out , sexually abused them and buried them in shallow graves."

[youspeakmylanguage]

6. So he was a horrible, disgusting human being.

Does that mean that punishing him in a horrible, disgusting way is the right action of a civilized modern society? Should we lower ourselves to the same level as criminals like this in order to punish them?

[Undercover Owl]

8. he sure was!

I'm not going to second guess the Iranians for their choice of punishment.

However, for a professor to publicly voice his boneheaded cheer for torture is a little embarrassing. Aren't professors supposed to be more dignified?

[Igel]

17. He runs his own blog, and is pretty much a libertarian.

He does constitutional free-speech issues, among other things.

And Volokh has never been noted for his excessive use of tact. When I was at UCLA he routinely pitched some truly stunning editorials and LTTE at the Daily Bruin, the student paper there.

[Warpy]

11. I'm against anything like this because of who I am

not because of who they are or what they may or may not have done.

And yes, I'm speaking as the survivor of a gruesome murder of a family member.

Having the murderer in turn murdered by the state in my name would have added guilt to grief and would not have brought my beloved family member back.

I don't understand the mindset that cries out for gruesome revenge.

I'm no saint. I do have an active fantasy life. I just realize that acting out on it brutalizes me and everyone else who might get in the way.

[Igel]

16. Ah, but first show me a modern, civilized society.

I'm not sure American's it, and I'm fairly sure that I wouldn't put Iran in that category.

I'm not sure I'd call myself "modern" and "civilized" all the time. :-)

[BeFree]

19. Like "Shock and Awe"?

Isn't that precisely what we did two years ago? Did we not publically punish the Iraqi people with pronouncements of "Shock and Awe" on every TV and newspaper in the world?

[flamin lib]

9. I can understand the anger and calling for revenge but . . .

If someone were to hurt my family and I were left to my own devices there would be no place on earth they could be safe.

Having said that, I live in a civilized society and I expect that society to protect me from those who would do me harm. If I am to expect that from society, I must also expect society to protect others from me and my vengeance.

I am categorically opposed to the death penalty for any number of reasons. You can't say "Oops, sorry," and restore life. It is, in the US, poorly applied across ethnic and economic lines. Once applied everything the deceased knew dies with them. Tim McVeigh went to that great good night with a lot of information we could use.

[Mojambo]

14. You nailed it.

Having said that, I live in a civilized society and I expect that society to protect me from those who would do me harm. If I am to expect that from society, I must also expect society to protect others from me and my vengeance.

The favored tactic of pro-death penalty people is to ask someone, "What if it were your daughter that were raped and killed? Wouldn't you want to kill that person?"

And the proper answer is, "of course I would, but I would hope that you, my neighbor, would be there to help restrain me in my moment of anger and weakness"

Civilized society should act as a restraint against our most destructive nature, not encourage it.

[undergroundpanther]

15. Agreed

If you can feel guilt afterwards if you were not restrained.

Some people..neighbors coworkers anyone..1 in 24 people don't feel guilt shame,remose compassion they do wrong and don't care.They are sociopaths,and they don't have to be a serial killer to have no consience. Letting a sociopath live after committing a horrible crime to them is letting him win. Sociopaths see themselves in competition with the world and to dominate is to win. Because they have no consience in thier eyes they do no wrong,wrong for a sociopath is not about guilt it's making a bad move in the game and getting caught.

Killing a sociopath is not bad per se. It's an act of mercy.for everyone stuck living around him.
But making justice a sensation, a big deal,and drama,torturing him,and giving him attention feeds the sick game he gets off on and gives him stimulation and pity that he craves..enough to kill for.

I see no solution to the socipath problem other than locking them up for life,or killing them.They have no consience.They don't feel love for people or living things at all..They don't care about you or anything except for winning and dominating and being stimulated and getting away with it..

It's sad but some people are dangrerous..and are not redeemable,because they have no consience,and don't even know what having one feels like and don't care to know..They are very good at faking having a consience and feeling love,so they can gety away with the bad stuff they do,and"win" thier games at any cost..because for a sociopath there is no emotional cost for what they do to others..

[leveymg]

18. I wonder, is the point here that Iran is cruel or the Prof.'s crude?

I'm perfectly willing to accept that this illustrates some of the less attractive sides of the Islamic Republic. I can also see Prof. Volokh's point about the perverse joy of seeing justice done to really nasty, perverted criminals.

But, I have to ask -- as the US and Israel threaten war against Iran -- why this, why now, and why here?

Is this some sort of subtle propaganda? Are we supposed to now start hating the Iranians just a little bit more, enough so that we don't actually do anything to oppose the start of bombing in June?

This is awfully redolent of a lot of the stuff that was said about Saddam Hussein two years ago. A lot of it was true, but it was propaganda, nonetheless. None of it justified what's happened since in Iraq.

Could you address my concerns, if you please, youspeakmylanguage? Did anyone else pick up on the subtext that I read here?

:eyes:

[youspeakmylanguage]

20. I don't think there is a conspiracy here...

I started this thread to provide another example of the extreme right's escalating descent from civility and basic human rights. As other commentators have pointed out using this specific example, they've moved from justifying grotesque torture in the name of "National Security" to advocating it simply in the name of "justice".

I don't believe that there is an organized effort on the right to specifically disparage Iran - at least not yet. They have their usual anxiety closet full of boogeymen, including China, Iran, N. Korea, and Venezuela.

I don't hate Iran, but I hate barbarism no matter what the context, supposed justification, or sponsorship. Unfortunately almost every country in the world is guilty of it to some degree or another, whether it is against people, animals, or the enviornment.

[PATRICK]

21. You become your enemy

it is evil's last victory, perhaps its only real one. If resisted it has nothing. Brutalization of the decent by an outrageous monster creates a monster in the society. WHO does the executing? Those individuals are soul-weighted more than the spectators and the peanut gallery. Revenge, lesson, satisfaction are real and to some degree surprisingly worse than some of the murderer's own zest for the kill.

I suppose, perversely, seeing the horror and despair and ultimate degradation on many falsely convicted people in jail some would think it a mercy to finish them off and humanely spare them that- as a rationalization for the slaughter of Innocent convicted murders which goes on and on.

You can sympathize and grant points, but when you meet the attitudes of the mob or the Professor or death advocates of any sort the odor of evil reeks excessively strong. Why get emotional? Deny the criminal any emotional response, any affirmation of his dark motivation in resonant revenge and consign his acts and life to oblivion and meaninglessness.
You say no to him or her even being a miserable virus infecting society. You deny him even the false dignity, the societal emotional circus of being a germ celebrated by some reactionary rite of violence. Deny them everything or join them in losing it all.

Then a higher stage of course is compassion and forgiveness for very very little separates our fellow human from ourselves and a living death is not to be envied. Odd how respectable, beloved people in fact are passive(or very active) remote killers simply by betraying the common good or simply not doing their service duty. Numbers and agony wise in a balance, these unsung villains never inspire the bloody vengeance(or even mild street protest) compared to the street psycho who got personal and creative with a few victims. People are always murdered for incredibly lousy reasons, no matter what the cause. The act is by nature irrational and evil even if you are trapped into it by self defense.