A city lies in ruins, along with the lives of the wretched survivors

[KingChicken]

As if we didn’t know already, just another perspective on the massive destruction in Fallujah. Right now I'm really concerned for the civilians, it looks like a lot were killed or wounded trying to escape the city:

---<snip>---

A drive through the city revealed a picture of utter destruction, with concrete houses flattened, mosques in ruins, telegraph poles down, power and phone lines hanging slack and rubble and human remains littering the empty streets. The north-west Jolan district, once an insurgent stronghold, looked like a ghost town, the only sound the rumbling of tank tracks.

US Marines pointed their assault rifles down abandoned streets, past Fallujah's simple amusement park, now deserted. Four bloated and burnt bodies lay on the main street, not far from US tanks and soldiers. The stench of the remains hung heavy in the air, mixing with the dust.

Another body lay stretched out on the next block, its head blown off, perhaps in one of the countless explosions which rent the city day and night for nearly a week. Some bodies were so mutilated it was impossible to tell if they were civilians or militants, male or female.

More: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=582915

[billyoc]

1. No need to worry

in 2 days everyone in Fallujah will be dead. They have no water left. :grr:

[Starfury]

2. And the Bush puppet says....

"Prime minister Iyad Allawi said there had been no civilian casualties during the battle for Fallujah, contradicting accounts from residents inside the city."

Sure. :mad:

[frankly_fedup2]

3. I think they were given warning and enough time to get out to . . .

the refugee camps that had been set up for them with food, water, and a bed.

I know it doesn't make it right, but they did have a choice to stay or go.

Like the Japanese did before the A-Bombs were dropped. They were given a week or so warning; however, the majority stayed because they did not think we would use the bomb. Unfortunately, they died finding out we would use it.

[VivaKerry]

4. I am feeling a little like a falujaan (sp?)

I have a chance to leave my country/my community. But I am staying. This is MY town, my country. But when the fascists bring their tanks through MY town, I guess I will deserve it. I had my chance and all..

[chelaque liberal]

5. I understood that males over 15 were not allowed to leave. Is this true?

[maddezmom]

9. 15-55 I believe. here's DU link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=960846

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. Yes

Troops have cut off all roads and bridges leading out of the city and have turned back hundreds of men who have tried to flee the city during the assault. Only women, children and the elderly are being allowed to leave.
The military says keeping men aged 15 to 55 from leaving is key to the mission's success.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/12/iraq/main655266.shtml

Now, since the military now say there's hardly anyone left in Fallujah, we must assume they killed all the men. Without having any idea if they were civilians or insurgents. This would seem to be genocide.

[Cadence]

23. thanks for posting

I had no idea.

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. There was a warning before the first one was dropped?

I've never heard that before. There were leaflets dropped saying the USA would use a second one (without, I believe, saying where).

The refugee camps are generally described as 'makeshift', eg

Even so, they said there is no evidence of any brewing humanitarian crisis because most internally displaced people are being taken in by relatives, friends and volunteers in communities around Fallujah. Homeowners who have insufficient space in their houses are allowing refugees to attach lean-to tents to the sides of their buildings, according to reports from aid workers.
...
At least three makeshift camps for Fallujah's displaced residents have sprung up in the towns of Amiriya, Faqlawiya and Habbaniya, said Rana Sidani, spokeswoman for the International Committee of the Red Cross. She said each of the camps has received "thousands of families" from Fallujah, but there have been no reports so far of severe shortages of food or supplies.

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/world/10139000.htm

which sounds more like it's the general populace helping the refugees, rather than the American troops or their Iraqi government.

[maddezmom]

7. so I suppose you'd agree with the Gen that says there is no aid crisis

The U.S. Marine general who commanded the fight to take Falluja said those who remained were the rebel hard core who would be killed. There was no aid crisis in the city, he said.


"What you're seeing now are some of the hard-liners, they seem to be better equipped than some of the earlier ones, we've seen flak jackets on some of them," Major General Richard Natonski told the BBC. "But we're more determined and we're going to wipe them out," he said.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=721&e=2&u=/nm/20041115/wl_nm/iraq_dc

If they stayed inside the dity, they deserve it??? I hope that's not what you mean.

[RyomaSakamoto]

8. you sound just like the imperial japanese defending nanking

they used the term ILLEGAL COMBATANTS to justify their brutality as well.

btw: we refused to let out MALES

fyi: the japanese were not givin a warning

[Nihil]

11. No, you don't appear to think at all, much less read anything.

No males between 15 & 55 were allowed out of Falluja (war-crime).
Many tried and were turned back (war-crime).
Hospitals were deliberately targetted and destroyed (war-crime).
Medical aid was prevented from entering the "captured" areas (war-crime).

Your comment that "but they did have a choice to stay or go" is
either pitifully ignorant or wilfully untruthful.

Given your position in other recent threads, I suspect the latter.

[NCN007]

29. not much point in occupying fallujah

if you allow the people you are trying to root out to escape. Just a thought.

[Nihil]

34. No point whatsoever in occupying Fallujah. Glad we agree.

My reply was to .3 who believes that the 15-55 year old males who have
been slaughtered in Fallujah actually had a chance to leave.

You, on the other hand, seem to believe the opposite: the males all
deserved to be slaughtered as they might just, possibly, potentially
have been a member of the Iraqi resistance (oops, "a terrorist").

(I believe that there should be no invading troops in Iraq, no foreign
bombers, helicopters, tanks, etc., no dead civilians but wtf ...)

[NickB79]

35. Ah, I see your brilliant logic

We knew there were insurgents hiding in Fallujah, but we didn't know who they were exactly. Soooo, we just kill ALL the men and boys (about 100,000 of them) and that's that, right? I mean, that IS what you're implying, no?

Heck, why not spread this fabulous idea to the rest of Iraq? We'd only have to kill ~10 million Iraqi men and boys to be sure we've crushed the Iraqi resistance.

Is that a pretty good expansion of your brilliant thought?

[NCN007]

36. Thats rediculous

We are not killing all the boys and men between 15 and 55, just because we didnt let the out of the city. Thats known as genocide. Only the ones who are fighting back, as per the ROE. Have the troops made mistakes? Yes. Does this mean that their mission is to kill all civilians in the city? No. There are much more effective ways of doing that that dont require Americans on the ground to risk their lives. Even with all of our new technology, the only weapon that can even hope to distinguish a civilian from a combatant is a living, breathing combat infantryman, which is why they are on the ground risking their lives.

I'm also curious where this 100,000 number is coming from

[sam sarrha]

12. You dont know squat... Those people were hostages.. they are shot if they

seen leaving by the insurgents.. there is 70% or 80% unemployment there they cant leave or they lose what little they need to survive.

leaving is identified as supporting the Infidel Invaders.

You are supporting the Imperialists guessing that they gave people enough time.. you do not know what is going on there.

I was in the Peace Corps in an Islamic Republic in 1973, in a time of peace.. They HATE us, We were Satan Incarnate because of our support of Israel.

You are using LOGIC to come to a Conclusion...
#1] the Islamic world, for the most part does NOT use logic. Some how the Koran explains it all through the local Mosque.

#2] They dont trust us. and have good reason, they ALL have friends and family that have been killed or maimed by American soldiers or actions of the occupying army.. apparently about 200,000 casualties.

and dont forget that we killed over 500,000 of these people in the first Gulf war.
They will NEVER FORGET...NEVER.

I have lived with Moslem's in a Moslem dominated land you have apparently not.

and get rid of the 'Well we warned them' but then 'we had to kill them because they didn't listen, they must deserve it' That is Reich Wing THINKING.

NUMEROUS nations have BEGGED us NOT to invade that city..

it is DESTROYED...now the insurgents will come back with the support of the people and we will have to rebuild it, with TAX DOLLARS. not their oil dollars.

This is a Fucked up situation, the Village Idiot and his puppet masters have been planning this since 1995 you think they would have done it right.

[leesa]

13. I guess they never believed Americans could be such assholes, eh?

I heard on Air America that many could not get out because they had no transportation, or the money it cost, or they were disabled in some way.

HOW were they supposed to get out??

I have heard this rationalization from Americans over and over. When we carpet bombed Afghanistan..."well they should have gone away". Where?? This is the desert, you don't just pitch a tent somewhere and hang. When we carpet bombed and napalmed Baghdad, stupid Americans said, "well, they should have moved out" WHERE? HOW?

The point silly person is not that it is their fault they didn't move, WE are criminals for attacking civilians AND soldiers who did nothing to us in the first place

[llmart]

15. I'm curious.....

How do you find a radio station where you can get Air America? I want to start listening but haven't found it yet.

[Zerex71]

25. Try looking for free online radio if you can.

Failing that, look online to see what the nearest station that is that will broadcast it. You may be able to pick it up out of Chicago or a place like that depending on how close you are in the Midwest, for example, to their stations.

[llmart]

27. Thanks!

Except for I only have dial up and can't tie up my phone line long listening to a radio program online. I like to keep my phone line free in case my loving son is trying to call me:)

[Zerex71]

28. I heard he was a great guy...

[truth2power]

14. Well, that settles it, then. They deserved what they got.

<sigh> Words fail me!

Ya know, Frankly, I have an adult son. If someone were laying seige to my city and said I could leave but my son had to stay, I know what my choice would be. I would have to stay and take my chances.

You seem to think the people of Fallujah were playing some perverse game of "Chicken". These are real people with real lives.
I guess it salves your conscience to convince yourself that it's their fault.

We are doing things there that are a sin against God!!!

P.S. I guess words don't fail me.

[bush_is_wacko]

32. Sins

We are doing things there that are a sin against God!!!
*******************************************************
And we are doing it in what the Christains and Muslims call the "cradle of humanity." This administration is inviting death and destruction right to our doorstep. What are we going to tell our children when the next attack hits?

[ze_dscherman]

17. Please read your history book

I don't know who told you that crap. There was NO warning that Hiroshima or Nagasaki would be nuked.

You may get some brief information from this article in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

[cubsfan forever]

18. I was going to point out

the fatal flaws in your "arguments," but others have stated them quite eloquently. Yes, you are either horribly uninformed or willfully ignorant.

"Like the Japanese did before the A-Bombs were dropped. They were given a week or so warning?" I suggest taking a course in World History or US History, but not at Bob Jones University, et al.

It simply boggles the mind to try to figure out how you came to that racist conclusion. Revisionist history? Faux News? But I repeat myself. Just asking.

[KingChicken]

20. Where the hell are you getting this?

Are you some kind of idiot? You think that all the Iraqis in Fallujah could get out with enough warning. Do you have any idea how many people are imbolized because they don't have cars or money? The elderly, young children, sick and disabled people, pregant women, people who just who just plain don't want to risk losing everything to looters (both American and Iraqi). Those camps were miles away, through hostile desert terrain. I'm sure most did leave, but I know many simply couldent.

The Japanese had warning? You are so full of shit, no one even knew what the hell an A-Bomb was, how the hell do you think they would have an idea of the destructive power. If someone told you they would use a non-existent weapon to unleash unimaginable of power upon your country would you believe it?

[sandnsea]

22. Ever been poor?

When you have no means to go anywhere. Or have a sick child, pregnant wife, disabled family member? Which means you CAN'T go anywhere. The worst part is, this isn't going to work, it was all pointless, senseless. It hasn't worked anywhere else, it isn't going to work in Fallujah. We've just made more homeless, jobless, angry people. More insurgents. Gads. I can't believe the denial.

[daleo]

24. Suppose Ossama said everyone out of New York in five days?

Would the warning make everything that happened after that all right?

[NCN007]

30. we didnt warn the people

but we did warn the government, before hiroshima, and again before nagasaki. They didnt believe us, so we used the bomb, twice, before they surrendered. It was still the right thing to do.

[burrowowl]

33. What refugee camps

the people were mostly fleeing on their own.
And not to a town or farmlands but to say like around Roswell NM, many many miles from anything including water.
Yeah I know all Irakis have high tech camping gear even for the infants, those portable water filtration systems, dehydrated food (which needs water), etc.

[sattahipdeep]

16. US soldiers 'beat hospital staff

Monday 15 November 2004, 15:14 Makka Time, 12:14 GMT

"The troops dragged patients from their beds and pushed them towards
the wall. There were 17 injured people among the patients," al-Muhannadi said.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A800AA57-C2A4-47FB-9BB5-6D6E1B9C3C22.htm

[chelaque liberal]

19. I'm suspicious about this story.

While Americans have proved there are no limits to the level they can sink, this story is too much like the lie put forth by Bush I about Iraqi solders removing babies from incubators.

That said, we have done enough horrible things over there that most of the ME will believe it, so the effect will be the same as the incubator story was here.

[sandnsea]

21. An Iraqi doctor's story

I really wish people would understand propaganda actually does come from al jazeera too.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041115/REPOSITORY/411150349/1013/NEWS03

[zulchzulu]

26. If the Iraqi insurgents hadn't voted for Kerry, they'd still be alive

Let that be a lesson to learn.

[VegasWolf]

31. But halliburton will be just fine!