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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:03 AM
Original message
Zogby: American voters say urgent moral issues are peace,poverty and greed


"A new poll released today by Zogby International on the results of last Tuesdays election shows that American voters think the urgent moral issues facing our country are peace, poverty and greed and that Catholic voters overwhelmingly think that issues of economic justice are the greatest moral crisis in the United States today. "

"Dave Robinson, executive director of Pax Christi USA, a national Catholic human rights organization, said that these numbers show that voters, particularly Catholic voters, choose their candidates on a wide range of values, and resist attempts to characterize their political identity in one or two issues."

Though its clear that a portion of the electorate voted solely on issues like abortion and gay marriage, this poll shows that the vast majority of voters, especially Catholic voters, are influenced by a wide range of issues, said Robinson. Despite attempts to characterize Catholic political identity in one or two issues, Catholics recognized that there are a broad range of issues that their faith calls them to vote on; issues like economic justice, the war in Iraq, health care and more.

<snip>

Zogby also puts to lie the idea that Catholics vote primarily based on abortion or were more likely to vote for Bush* because a couple of bishops said they should.



". . . Asked the question of the greatest moral crisis facing our country, 31% of Catholics chose poverty and 31% chose greed, compared to only 20% who chose abortion, and 11% that chose same-sex marriage. Further, more Catholic voters were turned off by messages from conservative leaders trumpeting non-negotiable issues, as opposed to Catholic groups who held up a broad range of moral issues. According to Zogby, 25% of voters said that conservative Catholic messages touting non-negotiable issues made them more likely to vote for Sen. John Kerry, whereas only 20% said these messages made them more likely to vote for President George W. Bush. Fifty-six percent said these messages had no effect on them at all."


more at. . .

http://www.zogby.com/soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=10389
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. That's the one some of us have been discussing
Took the poll several days ago and I remember that question. You could check off multiple items from a list of moral issues. I didn't see the results and appreciate your posting this.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. I just returned here to thank Nordic for posting this in GD.

After seeing it there and reading the entire article, I thought it deserved to be in LBN.

I thought this referred to exit polls but you're saying this was one of those online polls of people signed up with Zogby?
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
36. This question was in a Zogby poll I took online
I signed up with Zogby months ago and they send me a url every couple of weeks to go and take their poll. It's not open to the public at their site. This poll was the one he conducted after the election and it was lengthy. But I do recall this question. Interesting that these results don't match the right wing pre election blather.
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
2. Then how did
Bu$h get elected?
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. It wasn't the Catholic vote that elected shrub
Remember, the exit polls asked voters about a wide range of primary issues, like "economy" and "war in Iraq". 22% said "moral issues", which in this context would probably be taken to mean something other than economic justice or war.

Interestingly enough, with 20% of those citing "moral issues" as their main motivation picking Kerry, that leaves bush with 17%-18% of voters coming to him for these "morality" matters, a statistically insignificant increase from 2000.
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
34. Because red state morality
Is Guns, god and bigotry. Blame the electoral college system.
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George_S Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
67. "Strong Leader" according to the exit polls.
This was Bush's strongest suit, so it was fear and insecurity that got him elected (even if there was tampering, we knew we needed to win by a lot of votes).

My guess is that Rove planned the timing of the bin Laden tape and at the same time they prepared to enter Fallujah.

It worked.
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coloradodem2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
3. It makes everything make even less sense than it already does.
n/t
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. My thought exactly
so will someone explain to me how it is we elected Bush? Is it concievable in any universe that a majority of voters think Bush promotes peace or fights poverty?
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
31. WE did not elect bush. DIEBOLD elected bush.

This election was a foregone conclusion. There was no paper trail. They could do whatever they wanted with the vote. They owned the machines.

Unless something is done in the next two years, there will never ba a fair election in this nation again. And I blame the media first and foremost. If they were not puppets of the regime we would have know the truth from the start, that * was a fascist dictator bafore he ever ran the first time. But the media is owned by the power structure and the power structure will not relinquish control without a fight. And the longer this goes on the more likely the fight will be a revolution. And don't tell me it can't happen here.

It can happen anywhere the power structure is greedy enough to take all the wealth to itself, and leave the masses of population with next to nothing. Continental colonies, 1776. France, 1789. Russia, 1917. United states of America, 200?.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
65. which means....
*ush elected *ush!

hello!
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #3
33. Yes!! So why in hell people vote for Bush?????
Now I am really confused. If these are people's value issues, Kerry should
have won by a landslide.
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Stevious Donating Member (212 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #33
53. moral values?
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indigolady Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. "tax cuts"
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Dem2theMax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
4. Nice to know that some people actually GET the bible. nt
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American Tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. What good does it do, if they don't vote accordingly?
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:31 AM
Response to Original message
5. So, these were the "moral votes" identified by exit polls...
Guess maybe they did break to Kerry, huh??

NGU.


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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Makes you wonder, alright. BTW, I love your graphic of one

flip flop flopping! Somebody ought to make a bumper sticker/poster/pin of that.
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FubarFly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
8. If we took a clearer stand against the war,
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:51 AM by FubarFly
I believe a good portion of the religious left would have supported us. I've talked to a lot of liberal Catholics who were turned off by Kerry's "we will hunt down the terrorists and kill them" rhetoric. People who are appalled by the needless slaughter of innocent humans need to hear their leaders at the very least acknowledge their mistakes.
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oscar111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Supports idea votes were STOLEN
if folks against poverty , they voted dem. Votes must have been stolen.

Exit polls in electronic vote areas pro Kerry, but BBV's lowered Kerry's totals. In paper trail areas, exit polls agreed with the paper record of votes.

Time to complain about a stolen election. THen revote.. revotes have been done before in the US.
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RyomaSakamoto Donating Member (393 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. supports what the exit polls were telling us, more wanted kerry
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 07:29 AM by RyomaSakamoto
but the fix was in...

when will paperless voting become a major issue for the dems?

i'm beginning to think they negotiated terms on who would win and when to eliminate the messy uncertainty of letting the people decide.

i'm sure wallstreet would be onboard with the thirdway :scared:
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Yes, I would have liked Kerry better if he had wanted to

end the war and track down and capture the terrorists. I supported him because he was the only person who could possibly defeat Bush*, all Nader claims to the contrary, but I wasn't in agreement with him on everything. I took the quiz at www.catholicvoting.com and learned I agreed 100% with the bishops, 70% with Kerry, and 0 (that's ZERO!) % with Bush* -- in other words, Bush* is 360 degrees in opposition to the US Catholic bishops on social and economic issues!
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niki Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
44. Re: "Yes, I would have liked Kerry better if he had wanted to"
it is precisely this kind of message that needs to be disseminated broadly, beyond the blogosphere. the typical 'divide and conquer' type politics of this administration were deployed, yet again, with the appointment of Gonzales to replace the unspeakable previous atty gen. it's such obvious pandering to the Latino/a block and the fact is that, per your msg, bush is the diametric opposite of what he avers to stand for and this discrpancy is totally obvious re the disparities betweeen policy and practice as it related to catholic values.
to say what everyone who (IMHO) is not completely bereft of any brain cells, shrub didn't win; nobody elected him (again). it was Diebold, ES&S and others who put him ahead in both the popular and electoral votes. i sincerely hope that all on DU have either contributed to are planning to contribute ASAP to BBV/Bev Harris et al as they undertake their voter fraud investigations.
can anyone answer me this: WHY WOULD ANYONE, and i do mean anyone, VOTE FOR THIS MAN AFTER ALL THAT WE'VE FOUND OUT WENT DOWN IN HIS FIRST TERM??????????
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Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Hi FubarFly
I'm no longer a Catholic - much more of an EarthSpirit kind of gal - but you're right about people being turned off by Kerry's "hunt & kill" rhetoric. That was one area that Kerry and I differed greatly. My hope was that if he did elected, he would spend more time focusing on our domestic issues and hopefully an alternative energy policy and not make it such a priority to "hunt & kill".
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Soopercali Donating Member (257 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. What are you telling me....
That they voted for Bush instead?
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FubarFly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #18
29. I expect some did,
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 10:51 AM by FubarFly
although many just stayed at home. Most of the Catholics I talked to had a problem with voting for more war. The reaction I got from the people who told me they were considering Kerry was very conflicted. A lot of these folks are also pro-life, so if they did eventually vote for Bush, with the Iraq war, (and the death penalty), off the table, abortion may have been the deciding moral issue. I believe that if Kerry condemned the war, coupled with his stance on economic issues, he could have swung many of these voters.



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indigolady Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
58. i agree...I voted for Kerry, but worried about his war stance
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ausiedownunderground Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
12. The real "Moral Issues" - Take note Christian Taliban!!!!!
Like the US, over here in OZ we have had a rise of the "Christian Taliban", and like in your election they also had some influence over the "issues" and the final result. It is reported over here that 40% of Americans are in the "Christian Taliban" or are associated with it, while here in Oz that number is only 15%. Probably because of this discrepency,in our election John Howard assigned several of his deputies to raise "Christian Taliban" moral issues such as Abortion and Gay marriage. Howard, unlike Bush was careful to distance himself from being the "Front man" on these issues - using his Health Minister Tony Abbott and his parliamentry secretary Chris Pyne. It did work fairely well as the "Christian Taliban" were able to swing about 3-4 tight parliamentary seats to Howard. What's so great about this Zogby Poll is that it highlights the complete and utter hypocrisy of the "Christian Taliban's" version of what is a "Moral issue". From my understanding of what i was taught about the "Christian bible" i think God and Jesus were far more interested in Peace,Poverty and Greed than Gay marrige and Abortion. The problem is that the "Christian Taliban" have no answers for these "moral issues" because they are a major reason for them!!! Maybe a lot of them are misguided by their leaders - i don't know??
However having spoken about these same issues, on several occassions recently, to Muslim friends i know well, they also express similiar worries about their own "Muslim Taliban" and its pushing of Moral Value issues important to Muslims. Their worry like my own, is that the clash between "The Christian Taliban" and "The Muslim Taliban" if not checked, is going to drive majority moderates from both cultures into opposing corners. At that point who knows what will happen??
What
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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
16. Oh, well now that Bush "mandate" makes sense!
Of course! If you're concerned about poverty and greed, of COURSE you're going to vote for the Republicans!

What the fuck is WRONG with these stupid, stupid people?
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lefthandedskyhook Donating Member (340 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
28. I'll give you one guess...
"It's not who votes that counts. It's who counts the votes." - - J. Stalin
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #28
61. And there you have it.
:-(
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indigolady Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
60. votes were stolen. The people voted for Kerry.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
17. Show me a poor child and you wil find
"drug-addicted, alcoholic irresponsibe or LAZY Parents"
This was O'Reilly's comment to a Minister of the Mainline(Liberal)
Churches. Either Thursday or Friday past, O"Reilly had the Minister on
and showed what Republicans really believe. O'Reilly says he is not republican but we know this position re poor is Republican to its core.
The Liberal Minister was trying to explain Morality should include
a broader concept than the AbortionaGay rights etc. At least he(O'Reilly) is honest
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. "drug-addicted, alcoholic irresponsibe or LAZY Parents"
hey O'Leilly send them here eh









That will "Cleanse" them out of the system. They won't need Food stamps any more when they find out.


"LABOR LIBERATES--- OR LABOR WILL BRING FREEDOM"
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fugue Donating Member (846 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. Show me drug-addicted, alcoholic, irresponsible or LAZY parents
and you will find the adult results of poverty and abuse.

I live in the "bad" part of town. My neighbors are the drug-addicted, the alcoholic, the irresponsible, the nonworking.

Most of them were poor and abused kids who got addicted to drugs and alcohol while under the age of fifteen. In other words, while they were still kids. I've watched some of them try to get off the stuff and get their lives straightened out. One of them was doing well when the economy collapsed and she lost her job. In a town full of degrees (we're a university town), a woman without a high-school diploma is not going to get one of the few jobs there are. She got back on the drugs. She and her boyfriend held someone up. They and her two young sons are now on the run--Florida, last I heard.

Drug addiction, alcoholism, irresponsibility, abusiveness, and apathy are symptoms, ladies and gentlemen. You go after the cause: poverty, the despair of getting out of poverty, and abuse.
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indigolady Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
62. . . . like Rush Limbough?
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kostya Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
49. I really don't understand why the liberals/moderates don't boycott
O'Lielly, period, end of story. He is such an ass.
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indigolady Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #49
63. I never watch that jerk...or that channel
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American Tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
19. Should this be considered as reliable as Zogby's election predictions?
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. It's probably more reliable than the results of the election.
Unless Zogby uses BBV machines and does not survey blacks.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
21. And they think * will help them with those issues?!
:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
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JudyM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
24. Kerry's religious outreach coordinator, Mara Vanderslice, on PBS
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 09:47 AM by JudyM
a moment ago, was discussing her experiences with outreach during the campaign. She said the outreach was welcomed by rural folks with exclamations of 'Where have you been? We've been waiting for you!'
She focused efforts in MI, where the Catholic vote went largely to Kerry and was an instrumental factor in his win there. She wants to persuade the party that religious outreach on left-associated moral issues holds a great deal of promise for upcoming elections, filling a void. It's about time.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
26. Poverty, Peace, Greed?
How the hell did Bush win on these grounds then? I don't understand if people believe these are the top issues which are Bush's biggest failings how the majority could vote for Bush.
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. majority
I don't think the majority voted for Shrub; I think the election was stolen by vote fraud.
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
27. goodbye rightys
does this mean those christian right freaks are going to leaving the news talk shows ,and letting us watch and listen, and read what we want? I figured they would have the ten commandments tattooed on my kids forehead in another month!
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llmart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
30. I'm starting to rethink my view of Catholicism.....
if only they did have such misogynistic attitudes!

"Jesus is the Original Liberal"
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selmo7 Donating Member (275 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. Any religion that worships an all "male" God
is going to be misognyst.

Catholics had an awakening in the enthusiastic ecumenism of post Vatican II, but in the eighties reverted back to the ways of the Council of Trent - their revised Catechism is medieval in that it was not even written in non-sexist language.

Still there are many progressive Catholics despite the fundamentalism inherent in the dogma of the religion, which they largely IGNORE.

For a political evolution, it seems to me there must first be a radical (rooted) spiritual revolution in which people acknowledge that God is both Female and Male, Creatrix and Creator, Goddess and God, Moon and Sun, Yin and Yang and also, embrace living the balance of these feminine and masculine feeling values. Otherwise we get patriarchy in the extreme - with all the symptoms: electile dysfunction ("cheat to win") and pre-emptive penile projectile posturing and its subsequent acting out in the home and on the world stage.
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Blaze Diem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
37. Well that explains why the GOP is in power then!!
sarcasm....

They have the pro-GREED part certainly..poverty they could care less about..just casualties of the pro-greed system, and the Peace is just a propaganda word necessary to achieve their agenda of pro-GREED.

Bush and ALL that support his fascist regime, ALL who voted and applauded him are anything but pro-PEACE and certainly NOT PRO-LIFE.. They are stupid fools who bought the BUSH pro-GREED lies.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
38. kick
:kick:
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miloszabba Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
39. from someone raised in the bible belt, its true
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 02:16 PM by miloszabba
I escaped the Southern fundamentalist Bible belt, only to affirm that this Catholic/Protestant split over values is true and runs deep.

Southern Protestants (meaning Christians who are not Catholic) vote on God, Guns, and Gays (pro, pro, against). They are all about fundamentalist, their "individual" rights, damn the consequences on others.

Catholics tend to vote with more of collective conscience

My resume of qualifications to assess this situation: as a young preteen, I was forced to work on PAT ROBERTSONS 1988 presidential campaign AND answer phones during a 700 Club pledge drive. Yes, they are as scary and delusional as you think.
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livinbella Donating Member (477 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
40. It's a little late now, don't you think?
bush ain't wasting any time hammering these issues
right down to the bloody stump.
Just wait till he unveils his all new line-up
for 2005.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
41. Maybe if the Democrats would actually stand up on some of these issues...
they'd get more votes from religious people.

Certainly preferable to abandoning support for freedom and equality.
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EndElectoral Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
42. Well, they sure didn't vote that way according to Exit Polls!!!!
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
43. I took that poll on line
Also, remember , the exit polls they use for their BS, show they lost, so....

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realcountrymusic Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
45. I don't believe it at all
<vent>

I have on the ground knowledge of a campaign to preach on behalf of Bush's reselection from the pulpit of catholic "churches" -- I know of several churches where this happened in the Southwest right before the election. The mainstream catholic church is no better than the Taliban or the evangelicals.

The questions on that poll are skewed, and it is notoriously impossible to ask people to answer honestly about their bigotry. Of course they said "poverty and greed." Those are politicall correct answers. Polls like this are only a distraction that give us some vague sense of hope and thereby keep us from developing an appropriate level of outrage.

I for one have had it with the Catholic church. It is a den of perverts and pedophiles preaching morality from a tax-exempt and apparently law-exempt sanctuary. I am beginning to lose all respect for anyone who remains a practicing Catholic after what happened in this election, unless they choose to work actively against the church hierarchy from within and withhold or redirect all the money they would otherwise give the church. John Kerry, this includes you.

Same is true, for me, of some of the other "mainstream" denominations in this country that have stuck their hands into the political process. Churches are not supposed to be political advocates. That is the sole basis of their exemption from taxes, which makes them very profitable indeed. If the KKKatholics or the Presbyterians were taxed, those churches would quickly cease to exist in the United States, and/or the federal budget deficit would be much smaller.

Strong words, I know. But I had some friends in New Mexico tell me about sermons FROM THE PULPIT of their damn churches urging mostly working-class Hispanic and Native American parishoners to vote for Bush because "Kerry kills babies." Those priests should be arrested and their churches' property confiscated under tax liens.

I say to hell with all this insane, irrational religion bullshit. If there is a God, which I do not believe, someone explain why S/He is letting children suffer and die in Darfur and Fallujah while blessing fat, white Americans in their fucking SUVs.

</vent>

RCM
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alcuno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Hold it, please.
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 05:34 PM by alcuno
I'm a Catholic and admit that some of the bishops and priests have crossed the line, however, when you look at the way Catholics voted, it breaks down along red state/blue state lines. I'm in Illinois and Catholics voted for Kerry in the mid-fifties. It looks that way blue state by blue state.

I'm not opposed to a Holy War to peel Catholics away from fundamentalists. I think that Catholics can be reasoned with and fundamentalists cannot.
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realcountrymusic Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. the church as a whole is corrupt

so it doesn't matter to me how individual catholics voted. there would have been more "blue states" (like New Mexico, at least, and probably Ohio) if the Catholic church had kept its hands out of politics (and off the little boys perhaps). I say tax the Catholic church.

I just heard about a priest who preached voting for Bush from the pulpit in a *Connecticut* church. The pattern is widespread, and no one is talkng about it. This is illegal. Ergo, the Catholic church is a criminal organization.

But then, it always was.

rcm
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
47. Now Zogby knows how to talk the talk!!!.............
But where is Bush's Abortion morals.....eh?
But where are Bush's Gay Morals...., Eh???

This is why Kerry won the election that he conceded to early.

So much for checks and balances!!!
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
48. I'm very poor and can't afford good morals.
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DuaneBidoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
50. Zogby, if you don't 'splain how you got it so wrong I won't believe a
goddamn thing you say...sorry no credibility with me.
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Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Who says he got it wrong? n/t
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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #50
54. yeah, wake up! Zogby didn't get it wrong!
Zogby was right.

Exit polls are never wrong.

Bush did NOT win this election. He lost.

All evidence out there points to a large Kerry win.

Oh, except that little matter of the vote count. Votes that were tabulated by computers. That were hooked to modems ....

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DuaneBidoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. You missed the point....
HE NEEDS TO COME OUT CLEARLY THEN AND SAY HE DIDN'T GET IT WRONG AND THAT THERE WAS LIKELY FRAUD. His silence on the issue is deafening. And I won't buy into anything he says until he clearly states why there was a discrepancy. Zogby is one who could move things...but he says nothing. Put up, or shut the fuck up.
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Nordic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. I see your point, and it's a good one
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Logansquare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
55. Hello? Any major media pick up this poll?
I did a Google news search and found the poll cited in a handful of regional sources.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
59. Those three moral value issues
could actually be the top priorities of the republicans. too:

Peace - we need to kill all our enemies so we can have peace.

Poverty - those poor people need to be eliminated - put them in jail or debtor's prison, except the ones we need to work at Walmart and clean our houses.

Greed - poor people wanting things they don't deserve and aren't able to pay for, like health care,food, and a place to live.
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StatBabe Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
66. For What It's Worth...
Frank Rich had a great column on "Moral Values" in the New York Times last Sunday--it's located here: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/14/arts/14rich.html?adxn... Anyway, Rich points out very articulately that the evangelicals that vote on abortion, etc. make up a very small voting block. However, they are a consistent 8-10% of the electorate that any like-minded candidate can count on!
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