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Blecht Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:50 PM
Original message
The Gray Zone (Hersh exposes Rumsfeld)
http://newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact

    THE GRAY ZONE
    by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
    How a secret Pentagon program came to Abu Ghraib.
    Issue of 2004-05-24
    Posted 2004-05-15
    The roots of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal lie not in the criminal inclinations of a few Army reservists but in a decision, approved last year by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, to expand a highly secret operation, which had been focussed on the hunt for Al Qaeda, to the interrogation of prisoners in Iraq. Rumsfelds decision embittered the American intelligence community, damaged the effectiveness of lite combat units, and hurt Americas prospects in the war on terror.

    According to interviews with several past and present American intelligence officials, the Pentagons operation, known inside the intelligence community by several code words, including Copper Green, encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners in an effort to generate more intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq. A senior C.I.A. official, in confirming the details of this account last week, said that the operation stemmed from Rumsfelds long-standing desire to wrest control of Americas clandestine and paramilitary operations from the C.I.A.

    Rumsfeld, during appearances last week before Congress to testify about Abu Ghraib, was precluded by law from explicitly mentioning highly secret matters in an unclassified session. But he conveyed the message that he was telling the public all that he knew about the story. He said, Any suggestion that there is not a full, deep awareness of what has happened, and the damage it has done, I think, would be a misunderstanding. The senior C.I.A. official, asked about Rumsfelds testimony and that of Stephen Cambone, his Under-Secretary for Intelligence, said, Some people think you can bullshit anyone.

    The Abu Ghraib story began, in a sense, just weeks after the September 11, 2001, attacks, with the American bombing of Afghanistan. Almost from the start, the Administrations search for Al Qaeda members in the war zone, and its worldwide search for terrorists, came up against major command-and-control problems. For example, combat forces that had Al Qaeda targets in sight had to obtain legal clearance before firing on them. On October 7th, the night the bombing began, an unmanned Predator aircraft tracked an automobile convoy that, American intelligence believed, contained Mullah Muhammad Omar, the Taliban leader. A lawyer on duty at the United States Central Command headquarters, in Tampa, Florida, refused to authorize a strike. By the time an attack was approved, the target was out of reach. Rumsfeld was apoplectic over what he saw as a self-defeating hesitation to attack that was due to political correctness. One officer described him to me that fall as kicking a lot of glass and breaking doors. In November, the Washington Post reported that, as many as ten times since early October, Air Force pilots believed theyd had senior Al Qaeda and Taliban members in their sights but had been unable to act in time because of legalistic hurdles. There were similar problems throughout the world, as American Special Forces units seeking to move quickly against suspected terrorist cells were compelled to get prior approval from local American ambassadors and brief their superiors in the chain of command.

    ...much more -- go read.


Will this finally bring these assholes down?
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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. I worry about Hersh's life and security. He is too honest for this band
of criminals.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Hersh is a made man
They can't whack him.

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LittleApple81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Why do you say that? Is he going to be protected by people he knows?
I absolutely love his articles.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Not really sure
I've heard some say he's got a lot of good connections with mid-level CIA personnel, but he's done a lot of investigative stories ABOUT the CIA (the Glomar Explorer episode, for example) that may have been prompted by CIA personnel themselves.

In any case, considering what he's revealed in his work since he first broke the My Lai massacre story, and since nobody has tried to 'whack' him yet, I'm guessing he has some sort of guardian angel somewhere.


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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
86. Really you don't have to use your imagination too much
The evidence is out there and often gets to point of slapping people in the face. People need to wise up on the function of agencies like this. The sole function of a lot of them is to protect empire, everything else is secondary and negotiable. They are really getting bald face and stupid as of late but that is because they are letting their hubris and intellect work against the mission they are assigned to. (Secret Dicks forays into getting his way probably is not helping either)

http://www.counterpunch.org/valentine05082004.html

Torture, the CIA and the Press
Who Let the Dogs Out?

By DOUGLAS VALENTINE

"O, pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth,
That I am meek and gentle with these butchers!"

Julius Caesar, Act III, Scene I.

Finally, a period of re-evaluation. Too bad it took a war crimes scandal to bring it about, and that the entire Iraqi misadventure was a criminal fraud to begin with.
(snip)
As we were told in Hersh's October 1991 article, Bill Clinton's CIA Director, John Deutch, was the villain who had castrated the CIA. In 1995, when a CIA employee was linked to the murder of "an American innkeeper and the Guatemalan husband of an American lawyer," Deutch issued a "scrub order" that prevented the CIA from hiring murderers. After 9/11, this "scrub order" seemed absurd. If it takes a thief to catch a thief, then it takes a killer to kill a killer. The logic was irrefutable, and suddenly the corporate media was begging the military and the CIA to adopt the torture, detention, and assassination techniques of the Israelis and as early as October 2001, Hersh, for some reason, was helping to provide a pretext for doing exactly that.

"Today's C.I.A. is not up to the job," Hersh alerted us. It had "become increasingly bureaucratic and unwilling to take risks," and under Clinton, it "promoted officers who shared such values."

We were at risk and unable to strike back against terrorists, because the CIA had stopped putting tough agents in the field, Hersh reported, and was relying on technology and friendly foreign services to do the dirty work. He said that in the new war on terror, it was no longer feasible to assign CIA agents undercover as diplomats or cultural attaches at American embassies in major cities. Having said that, he drew a blueprint of exactly what was to come: "in Afghanistan," he said, "or anywhere in the Middle East or South Asia, a C.I.A. operative would have to speak the local language and be able to blend in. The operative should seemingly have nothing to do with any Americans, or with the American embassy, if there is one. The status is known inside the agency as "nonofficial cover," or NOC. Exposure could mean death."

Is this not a recipe for the type of "contractors" who flooded Iraq after the invasion and occupation? The only difference is that a CIA agent under "non-official cover" is no longer referred to as a NOC, but as an OGA, for Other Government Agency.

Before I continue to put in context the persuasive impact of what Hersh said two and half years ago, when he was prodding America to unleash its dogs of war, let me remind you that the agents who drew the CIA into the line of fire over the systematic use of torture at Abu Ghoryab prison as a result, ironically, of Hersh's most recent "explosive" article in The New Yorker were two individuals who fit the "nonofficial cover" bill exactly: Mr. John Israel, a contract US civilian interpreter, working for the company CACI, and ostensibly attached to the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade; and Mr. Steven Stephanowicz, a contract US civilian interrogator, also working for CACI, but not attached to Military Intelligence, and certainly working for the CIA.

The whereabouts of Messrs. Stephanowicz and Israel are currently unknown, and CACI doesn't have to tell, because: 1) as we are told by Hersh, "Exposure could mean death," and 2) because, their trail leads to the CIA people who hired them; and the one thing Bush cannot accept, is having heroic a CIA agent brought up on a murder rap.
(snip)

Denial rather than personal defense mechanism for most is actually their M.O. :shrug:
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
92. Maybe he's just always one step ahead of them
Always making sure he has SOMETHING hidden up his sleeve so that if he should die some VERY embarrassing information would come out as a result. Who says that dead men tell no tales?
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #92
95. Actually, I think he did a favor for the CIA once during the Ford admin
IIRC, he held back the story about the Glomar Explorer being 'commandeered' to look for a derelict Soviet submarine. Former CIA director Colby is thought to have leaked information via Hersh from time to time as well.

It would be my guess that Hersh has long-time connections to one side or the other of the internal CIA struggles between the older personnel and the Bush-connected crowd that came in under Bill Casey.


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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. WTF?
Edited on Sat May-15-04 03:03 PM by Just Me
I am going to print and read this more carefully.

It seems like these neocon morons have turned every good element we had upside-down and inside-out. Are these people just plain crazy?
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whosinpower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. Great article
A note - you may want to take your time and read this carefully and thoroughly....but it lays it all out.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Yes, it is!!! After a careful read, I am spitting fire, again!!!
The mere fact that this neocon administration has intentionally rebuked and dismissed application of the Geneva Convention (which is part of the law of our land) should result in impeachment and criminal convictions. I am so freakin' appalled at the willingness to do anything by whatever means to achieve an end result that borders on utopian. God, no wonder I hate these people. They really are horrible virus to our country.

That being passionately stated *ahem*, I make two observations I find interesting.

1) The former intelligence official who is a source for this story still believes that the SAP (perhaps the former OSP) was/is a legitimate global operation NWS that it completely ignores the mandates of the Geneva Convention. Fine, whatever. At least the official condemns the extension of that operation to regular folk in prisons even if it's because the official is concerned about protecting the integrity of the SAP/OSP.

2) The torture problems were so serious that a group of JAGs actually went to the NYC Bar Assoc.'s Committee of Int'l Human Rights on two occasions and they were especially concerned about the use of civilian contractors in the interrogation process in addition to essentially the end of US compliance with the Geneva Convention.

Now, when I consider the profiteering (oil diggers and arms dealers and mercs) along with the plan for global domination and the cover-up of all this by the neocon coup,...I cannot help but feel as if our country is so close to despotic that democracy is seriously wounded.

:argh:
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. And I can't help but look at the genuine diligent care
Being taken by so many of our citizens to protect our democracy and stop these crazy obsessed assholes.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. So, TRUE!!! I am in awe of the courage of those who are "skillfully"
challenging those "crazy obsessed assholes",...few of whom will gain notoriety or just reward or even recognition. They are the PATRIOTS for democracy. I honor their bravery and courage and capacity to maintain their sense of humanity!!!!
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CheshireCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
43. JAG and Lindsey Graham
"The torture problems were so serious that a group of JAGs actually went to the NYC Bar Assoc.'s Committee of Int'l Human Rights on two occasions and they were especially concerned about the use of civilian contractors in the interrogation process in addition to essentially the end of US compliance with the Geneva Convention."

After reading this article to a friend, I discovered why Lindsey Graham has been so vocal in his condemnation of the prison abuse and torture scandal.

My friend told me that Graham used to be a JAG legal representative. Now we find out that JAG has been trying to blow the whistle on these "interrogation methods" the US has been using.

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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #43
75. ....and after Linsey Graham came on strong during that first
hearing, he has now backed down considerable.

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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #17
65. Slight correction, Just Me.

An SAP, or Special Access Program is a particular classification of a secret program. Like the classification of documents can be confidential, secret, top secret, etc.

OSP, or Office of Special Plans, on the other hand is the office in the pentagon that cooked up the phoney intel for bush to justify invading iraq.

Like apples and oranges.

Just thought I'd help clear that up.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #65
80. Thank you for that clarification.
I thought that the SAP and OSP were either the same group or so intricately tied that they were the same operation.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Sy Hersh is going to blow holes in every lie
this misadministration tells...bet next week's will be an eye opener as well.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
45. CIA is getting even with a vengeance.
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symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. This looks
like the stake that will be driven through the miniscule "heart" of the beast vampaire called Rumsfeld..
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. Can A DU'er Wiser Than Me Explain The Significance/Implications Of
"A senior C.I.A. official, in confirming the details of this account last week, said that the operation stemmed from Rumsfelds long-standing desire to wrest control of Americas clandestine and paramilitary operations from the C.I.A.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I'm not an expert by any means, but my understanding
is that Rumsfeld wants to create a small, focused, tactical military that handles everything itself. Kind of a horizontal monopoly on war-mongering. That way, everything the military did would be directly under Rummy's control (and subsequent Republican administrations).

This attitude flies in the face of everything our Constitution protects. The whole idea of a democracy is for the people to elect the president, who then directs the military with the input and oversight of an elected Congress.

This is the reason why Rummy and Cheney insisted on using a small force to invade and attempt to occupy Iraq. They wanted to prove that it could be done with tactical forces.

It's unfortunate that we had to have this terrible disaster, including the loss of thousands of lives, to prove the idiocy of their idea.
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Vitruvius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. And such an integrated force is made to order for a COUP --
right here in the U.S.

Or to stamp out any dissent or resistance after (another) rigged election.

Cheney & Rummy know exactly what they're doing.

Any totalitarian capability they create to use abroad can equally well be used right here at home.

Vitruvius

P.S: In June or July of 2000, I saw one story -- just one -- in the New York Times about how a band of George H. W. Bu$h's old CIA buddies had volunteered for George W. Bu$h's campaign in Florida. I thought little of it -- until the 2000 election was rigged in Florida...
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crossroads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
57. So this group decided... the end justified the means!
"The White House subcontracted this to the Pentagon, and the Pentagon subcontracted it to Cambone, he said. This is Cambones deal, but Rumsfeld and Myers approved the program. When it came to the interrogation operation at Abu Ghraib, he said, Rumsfeld left the details to Cambone. Rumsfeld may not be personally culpable, the consultant added, but hes responsible for the checks and balances. The issue is that, since 9/11, weve changed the rules on how we deal with terrorism, and created conditions where the ends justify the means."




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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. An interesting thing about Cambone...
I was listening to the Al Franken Factor at the office last week, and I overheard how Franken suspected that Cambone really does not have a Master's Degree in (?something) from some university. Franken seems to feel he has a fraudulent degree....very interesting.

I had to turn the radio off before I could hear the end of that story. Anybody know about that?
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gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #60
71. Recent news article
Edited on Sun May-16-04 12:43 AM by gulfcoastliberal
Stated that the feds are investigating several employees whom allegedly obtained fraudulent degrees from "diploma mills" that apparently allow you to buy a degree outright:

28 senior U.S. workers found to have diploma mill degrees

WASHINGTON - At least 28 senior-level federal employees in eight agencies have bogus college degrees, including three managers at the office that oversees nuclear weapons safety, congressional investigators have found.

The problem is likely even bigger, mainly because the government has no uniform way to check whether employees' alma maters are "diploma mills" that require little, if any, academic work, the General Accounting Office reported.

The findings by the investigative arm of Congress were to be presented to a Senate committee Tuesday.

An earlier GAO report revealed how easy it is to buy a degree from a diploma mill; this one shows high-level federal workers securing such degrees at taxpayer expense. The tally was $169,471 at just two of the schools.

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/breaking/051104_diploma_mi...

I wonder if Franken actually knows something or just made a joke?
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. Al Franken actually called Cambone's office
and he aired it on his radio program. I could hear the ringing on the other end. Al was waiting. A voicemail came on, with a woman cadet recording that "you have reached the office of _--something or other, please leave a message".

Al talked into the message and said he wanted Mr. Cambone to call him about a fraudulent master's degree which he had gotten. He asked Cambone to return the call as soon as possible (on the air!!!).

I had to turn off the radio because my boss approached....I'll try Al Franken's web site to see if he's got anything there.

This is interesting!!! A f**ing fraud.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
82. Rummy wistful of blitzkrieg - he went on lehrer news and spoke of
his small fast army he dreamt in terms of measuring UP to the blitzkrieg. used to have that quote.
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
42. Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, et al .....
DESPISE any careerist who opposes them ...

EVERY professional statesman, every career intelligence officer, every colonel and general who had an INKLING of what REAL honor and professionalism meant: .... EVERY one were cut down by the PNAC boys, who could not tolerate any heresy to their theology ...

CIA, DIA, State, DoD, ... ALL those who were competent and knowledgable REJECTED the false premises and wishful thinking of the OSP/PNAC/AEI numbskull neocons .... and most were canned: tossed aside by those who would brook NO dissent against their war dreams .... Gen Shinseki was just one of many ....

Rumsfeld 'replaced' the CIA/DIA, who did not produce sufficiently damning evidence against Saddam, with the OSP, who 'stovepiped' raw intelligence without allowing the data to be properly vetted and classified .... They didnt like the 'right way' standing in THEIR way ...

Honestly: THIS nation has never seen such traitorous behaviour by such an underhanded and dishonest clique ... EVER ! ...

That is what is meant when it is said that Rumsfeld had a long standing desire to wrest control of operations from the CIA ....
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. And, mind you, none of those "careerists" had a left wing bone
These were gung ho guys who believe in the black ops we all despise.

And Rumsfeld dumped them.

Kinda scary.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
9. Randi Rhodes Had A Caller On Thurday Who Mentioned Operations Like This:
Edited on Sat May-15-04 04:07 PM by cryingshame
The people assigned to the program worked by
the book, the former intelligence official told me.
They created code words, and recruited, after
careful screening, highly trained commandos and
operatives from Americas lite forcesNavy
SEALs, the Armys Delta Force, and the C.I.A.s
paramilitary experts. They also asked some basic
questions: Do the people working the problem
have to use aliases? Yes. Do we need dead
drops for the mail? Yes. No traceability and no
budget. And some special-access programs are
never fully briefed to Congress.



Some guy called Randi and said he was part of an elite force (he said every branch of military has elite).

Apparently guys are temporarily "retired" and put on special operations.

This fellow also said about the huge amounts of money going for Iraq "you'll never find out what happened to that money".
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. Yup. I picked up on the "no traceability or budget",...
,...I thought, "So that's where that couple of billion that disappeared went."
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
33. That's called...
"Sheepdipping", in the SpecOps vernacular. All trace of them is wiped off the earth. If they get caught in a sheepdipped op, they are on their own.
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Blecht Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. That was fast - Reuters picked up the story
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615&nci...

    Rumsfeld Approved Iraq Interrogation Plan -Report

    16 minutes ago Add Politics to My Yahoo!


    By Jeremy Pelofsky

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approved a plan that brought unconventional interrogation methods to Iraq (news - web sites) to gain intelligence about the growing insurgency, ultimately leading to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, the New Yorker magazine reported on Saturday.



    Rumsfeld, who has been under fire for the prisoner abuse scandal, gave the green light to methods previously used in Afghanistan (news - web sites) for gathering intelligence on members of al Qaeda, which the United States blames for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the magazine reported on its Web site.


    Pentagon (news - web sites) spokesman Jim Turner said he had not seen the story and could not comment. The article hits newsstands on Monday.
    ...
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
12. What Rummy wants? He wants to make life a Tom Clancy novel.
Edited on Sat May-15-04 04:04 PM by mouse7
We all know Rummy reads more fiction than news. Now we know why. Rummy must have read "Rainbow Six" and thought you could do shit like that in the real world.

Rummy... you cannot be Jack Ryan and Steven Cambone cannot be Jack Clark. It a fucking novel, dumbass.

"Copper Green"... Key-ryst, even the name smell like a Tom Clancy novel.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. No...
More like a Richard Marcinko novel. In fact, anyone heard anything from Marcinko lately? He's been unnaturally quiet of late.

Hmm...
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
13. Rummy should get the boot. eom
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #13
84. He will this week!
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #84
94. Oooh! I hope so! But what makes you so sure? eom
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #94
102. In desperation junior will have to do something to stop the bleeding
His poll numbers are more important than a Secretary of Defense.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. Then we should hope Rummy hangs on for dear life ...

so more damage is done.
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MSgt213 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
14. What if there were secrets passed from one President to another that were
never discussed. Secrets that all Presidents by nature of attaining the oval office were complicit in. Something like a mission impossible theory where things and events occurring around the world and in our own country aren't what they seem. If what Seymour is saying is even remotely true. There is and will be no way for us to know because people will go to jail and kill themselves before they told.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
48. Kill themselves? Not bloody likely.
They just outed the entire "black" world. It's exposed.

Valerie Plamed as it were.

Rummy wanted it kept secret. The CIA wanted Plame's identity kept secret. Ooops.
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dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. What kind of idiot wears his helmet in a press conference? Immoral
because he's trying to play to an audience.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040515/p...
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. that MG Miller sure is one bad ass dude
:eyes: good catch on the photo op for Miller.....pathetic.
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5thGenDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
40. MG Miller
Looks like Preparation H Raymond on Conan O'Brian.
John
With smaller ears, of course. And a helmet.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
64. Since the Doonesbury character (B.D.) took his off in Iraq
Maybe this guy felt like he had to keep his on - some kind of subliminal message.
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
69. You never see him arrive. You never see him leave. He is the wind.

I knew I'd seen him before.

That's Col. Flagg from M*A*S*H.

Apparently he got a promotion or two.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
83. What a dork....
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
19. Denials from Pentagon (This looks like the smoking gun)
INTERROGATIONS
Rumsfeld and Aide Backed Harsh Tactics, Article Says
By DAVID JOHNSTON

Published: May 16, 2004

WASHINGTON, May 15 Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld and one of his top aides authorized the expansion of a secret program that permitted harsh interrogations of detained members of Al Qaeda to be used against prisoners in Iraq, including detainees at the infamous Abu Ghraib prison, according to an article in The New Yorker Magazine.

<snip>

At the Pentagon, the chief spokesman, Lawrence Di Rita, vigorously denied the allegations that Mr. Cambone directed a covert program to encourage the coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners to improve intelligence gathering.

"It's pure, unadulterated fantasy," Mr. Di Rita said in a telephone interview. "We don't discuss covert programs, but nothing in any covert program would have led anyone to sanction activity like what was seen on those videos."

"No responsible official in this department, including Secretary Rumsfeld, would or could have been involved in sanctioning the physical coercion or sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners," Mr. Di Rita said.

<snip>

The article, to published in the May 24 edition of The New Yorker, said that the expansion of the "special access program" allowed authorities in charge of Abu Ghraib to engage in degrading and humiliating practices.

The article said, "According to interviews with several past and present American intelligence officials, the Pentagon's operation, known inside the intelligence community by several code words, including Copper Green, encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners in effort to generate more intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq."

In addition, the article said that Mr. Rumsfeld's decision in the matter had, in effect, shifted the blame for the abuses from himself to lower-level military guards.

<snip>



If, as I'm confident he does, Hersh has the goods, then this could lead to criminal penalites for Cambone and Rumsfeld. I sure hope so, even though the chances are still less than 1 in 10.

It finally shows conclusively that Smirky DimSon is corrupt and complicit. There's no freaking way he expressed "confidence" without knowing this.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. Not just Cambone & Rumsfeld,...Bush & Rice are part of the package. n/t
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #32
49. Powell and (especially) Cheney, too.
Shrub's a sociopathic sock-puppet.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. Sy Hersh to be on CBS Face the Nation tomorrow.
:evilgrin:
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #20
79. ^^^^^KICK^^^^^^^
:kick:
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #79
89. ^^^^^KICK 10:30 AM CBS^^^^^^^
:kick:
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happynewyear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
21. if this doesn't finish this pack of thugs off, nothing will
<< Rumsfelds goal was to get a capability in place to take on a high-value targeta standup group to hit quickly, a former high-level intelligence official told me. He got all the agencies togetherthe C.I.A. and the N.S.A.to get pre-approval in place. Just say the code word and go. The operation had across-the-board approval from Rumsfeld and from Condoleezza Rice, the national-security adviser. President Bush was informed of the existence of the program, the former intelligence official said. >>

That is you Rummy and you Condoleezza Rice, and you Myers and you Wolfowitz and YOU *! How many more are there in this pack of thugs? We don't know that yet but this is where those billions of $ have gone! And * your name is at the head of the list!

Try them all for war crimes! Impeach/fire them all now! :grr:





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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. It was predictable that the Bush regime would use rape and sex as weapons.
The BFEE always acuses our enemies of rape. Saddams, Udays and Noriegas sex lives were held up for pretext or ridicule. Then there's Bill and Hillary the rapists. The Bush regime's fellow travelers in the NRA-GOA-gunlobby seem obsessed with rape.
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happynewyear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #22
76. its the only weapon they have that they know how to use
:kick: !!!!!!!!!
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
23. The only thing that will bring down these scumbags is Physical ARREST!
They'll "SHOCK and AWE" everyone all day long and
no one will lock em up.


This election won't have a chance in hell!
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
25. This is an OUT RAGE . WRITE YOUR LAWMAKERS NOW
Im mad as HELL. How dare these chicken hawk spineless SOBs do this in the name of America

Forget the Fuckin spin about college hazing....They have been sending out dead bodies from those prisons at the rate of 5 per week

Forget about the contractors ever having to spend a single day in jail. Bush gave them complete immunity by excutive order last year when they knew what they were doing was immoral and illegal

Don't even bother thinking about all the lies Rummy told in front of the Senate and Congress just last week. We know this man is a pathological Liar

But worst of all they do this horse shit in the name of AMERICA

I WANT SOME ONES ASS ON PLATTER AND I WANT IT NOW !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
27. The Bad, The Ugly, and the Abominable...
Edited on Sat May-15-04 07:07 PM by Tellurian
"The roots of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal lie not in the criminal inclinations of a few Army reservists but in a decision, approved last year by Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, to expand a highly secret operation, which had been focused on the hunt for Al Qaeda, to the interrogation of prisoners in Iraq."

The tribunal put together by Rumy is another investigational whitewash. Theres no good to come of it..How can there be, when the fox is conducting the investigation of the chicken coop massacre!

"All the so-called black programs had one element in common: the Secretary of Defense, or his deputy, had to conclude that the normal military classification restraints did not provide enough security."

I'd like to restate Hersch's last line in the paragraph above to read: "had to conclude that the normal military classification restraints did not provide enough 'latitude' and flexibility. I think thats what he really meant.

Rumsfelds goal was to get a capability in place to take on a high-value targeta standup group to hit quickly, a former high-level intelligence official told me. He got all the agencies togetherthe C.I.A. and the N.S.A.to get pre-approval in place. Just say the code word and go. The operation had across-the-board approval from Rumsfeld and from Condoleezza Rice, the national-security adviser. President Bush was informed of the existence of the program, the former intelligence official said."

So, they were all in the loop..They were entirely aware of their mission and what lay in front of them. (meaning the onslaught of the terrorizing. All in agreement, using the no holds barred methods of abuse to get what they "consider" is primo intelligence.

I guess a good de-humanizing blood drenching adds value to the quality of the intel.

anyone interested in commenting on Hersch's words here?

"They carried out instant interrogationsusing force if necessaryat secret C.I.A. detention centers scattered around the world. The intelligence would be relayed to the sap command center in the Pentagon in real time, and sifted for those pieces of information critical to the white, or overt, world.


To the "WHITE", OVERT WORLD.

That racism thingy rears it's ugly head again!

"Fewer than two hundred operatives and officials, including Rumsfeld and General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, were completely read into the program, the former intelligence official said. The goal was to keep the operation protected. Were not going to read more people than necessary into our heart of darkness, he said. The rules are Grab whom you must. Do what you want.

The same meme excuse for ruthlessness used for ANYONE not in their camp...meaning we are at risk as well!

"Cambones military assistant, Army Lieutenant General William G. (Jerry) Boykin, was also controversial. Last fall, he generated unwanted headlines after it was reported that, in a speech at an Oregon church, he equated the Muslim world with Satan.

Ah, here it is in full view for all the world to see and hear...Republicans view Muslims as Satan...

"The success of the war was at risk; something had to be done to change the dynamic.

The solution, endorsed by Rumsfeld and carried out by Stephen Cambone, was to get tough with those Iraqis in the Army prison system who were suspected of being insurgents. A key player was Major General Geoffrey Miller, the commander of the detention and interrogation center at Guantnamo, who had been summoned to Baghdad in late August to review prison interrogation procedures. The internal Army report on the abuse charges, written by Major General Antonio Taguba in February, revealed that Miller urged that the commanders in Baghdad change policy and place military intelligence in charge of the prison. The report quoted Miller as recommending that detention operations must act as an enabler for interrogation.


Herch's statement makes a direct link connecting Rumsfeld and Cambone as directing and overseeing the intensification of the interrogation programs taking on a clearly diabolical action resolute in the nature of debauchery.

"Cambone says, Ive got to crack this thing and Im tired of working through the normal chain of command. Ive got this apparatus set upthe black special-access programand Im going in hot. So he pulls the switch, and the electricity begins flowing last summer. And its working. Were getting a picture of the insurgency in Iraq and the intelligence is flowing into the white world. Were getting good stuff. But weve got more targetsprisoners in Iraqi jailsthan people who can handle them.

Again, the rabid white racist driven terminology tightens the grip of Muslim insurgents under the cover of secrecy.

"By fall, according to the former intelligence official, the senior leadership of the C.I.A. had had enough. They said, No way. We signed up for the core program in Afghanistanpre-approved for operations against high-value terrorist targetsand now you want to use it for cabdrivers, brothers-in-law, and people pulled off the streetsthe sort of prisoners who populate the Iraqi jails. The C.I.A.s legal people objected, and the agency ended its sap involvement in Abu Ghraib, the former official said."

Anyone following will see, here comes the rub. CIA were originaly trained as sophisticated blk ops commandos unique in their pique because they were visible only to Rumsfeld, his consort Cambone, and of course GWBush. Now Cambone was ostensibly changing their venue requiring their state of the art interrogation methods, the same abomitable procedures reserved for Hi-def..criminals for ordinary town folk.

"Weve never had a case where a special-access program went sourand this goes back to the Cold War.

This single line should be the signet that slips a silken cord around Rumfeld's and his zealous assistant's neck, Cambone.

And Hersch's summary below reveals the chain of command in a nutshell:

"In a separate interview, a Pentagon consultant, who spent much of his career directly involved with special-access programs, spread the blame. The White House subcontracted this to the Pentagon, and the Pentagon subcontracted it to Cambone, he said. This is Cambones deal, but Rumsfeld and Myers approved the program. When it came to the interrogation operation at Abu Ghraib, he said, Rumsfeld left the details to Cambone. Rumsfeld may not be personally culpable, the consultant added, but hes responsible for the checks and balances. The issue is that, since 9/11, weve changed the rules on how we deal with terrorism, and created conditions where the ends justify the means.

"The notion that Arabs are particularly vulnerable to sexual humiliation became a talking point among pro-war Washington conservatives in the months before the March, 2003, invasion of Iraq. One book that was frequently cited was The Arab Mind, a study of Arab culture and psychology, first published in 1973, by Raphael Patai, a cultural anthropologist who taught at, among other universities, Columbia and Princeton, and who died in 1996. The book includes a twenty-five-page chapter on Arabs and sex, depicting sex as a taboo vested with shame and repression. The segregation of the sexes, the veiling of the women . . . and all the other minute rules that govern and restrict contact between men and women, have the effect of making sex a prime mental preoccupation in the Arab world, Patai wrote. Homosexual activity, or any indication of homosexual leanings, as with all other expressions of sexuality, is never given any publicity. These are private affairs and remain in private. The Patai book, an academic told me, was the bible of the neocons on Arab behavior. In their discussions, he said, two themes emergedone, that Arabs only understand force and, two, that the biggest weakness of Arabs is shame and humiliation.

The realization that the ongoing torture ordered by Rumy and Cambone was created out of the Arab ideology, identifying their fears, shame and humilations. What is more interesting is, who are the other right wing idealogues considered pro-war Washington conservatives that assisted in the compilitaion of humilating tortures checklisted for implementation? Why am I feeling Scalia lurking in the fogged underground of George W. Bush's S&M tactical universe?

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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. The bottom line.
This cabal was/has been/is willing to ignore and/or violate the "rule of law" whether constitutional, federal or international in order to achieve results THEY wanted; "results" which have been hidden from both the people and their representatives.

Their behavior is despotic and treasonous.

For me, the foregoing is the bottom line. All the rest is just a shitload of filling.
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maryallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
44. Excellent analysis, Tellurian.
Thanks.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #44
54. welcome, maryallen-
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #44
81. "Shitload of filling" = neocons' justifications/rationalizations,...
,...for breaking laws, esp the Geneva Convention. I communicated poorly in failing to express that link and that failure may have been interpreted as a criticism of Tellurian's post. I apologize.

Tellurian, your succinct analysis led to the bottom line I expressed.

:yourock:
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #27
46. Who? Newt, the Abomination for one, lurking around the Pentagon and CIA..
Perle, Kristol. The usual suspects.

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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. Where does Cheney fit into all this deception? What is his role?
is Cheney one of the beltway conservatives sadistically ruminating about Arab ideology seeking ways to indemnify the white race?
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
51. Exc.! Now, Tellurian, do you see significance in Ahnuld attacking 16 women
Honestly, this is good analysis of the Afghan/Iraq situation regarding violation of the Geneva Conventions.

The issue of shame, humiliation, and implied domination goes to the heart of the matter that you and I debated just a little recently.

Namely, that Ahnuld Schwarzengroper groping/molesting/attacking more than 16 women in the workplace was a significant psychological terror for many of those women.

And rewarding him with the governorship of the world's 5th largest economy is harmful to the cultural sanctions which command SAFETY AND DIGNITY FOR AMERICAN WOMEN.

You suggested that this was what some Repubs are calling the Abu Ghraib events-'frat boy pranks and blowing off steam.'

I'll find the links of some of those women describing their terror and how it affected their careers and post them for you. It ain't just gossip-rag hoopla.

I hope you can make the connection between the two situations as it affects the victims psychologically.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. J O'N...
For goodness sakes, I am a women and have had the gropers, pinchers, mashers, you name it..This isn't here say, as your numerous recollections of horror stories illustrate.

I think I handle myself pretty well. My childhood was spent as the youngest of 5 children, with 4 older brothers..I don't have a problem with touchy feeley men. I know how to put them in their place in the blink of an eye..
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #51
68. You Nailed It RIGHT!


I hate Arrnold! He is a disgrace to California and a disgrace to this country. He is no better than the abusers in Iraq- frat pranks -HA!

I dislike Maria as well. She is an enabler of the highest measure. Every time he gets in trouble -here she comes to clean it up for him.
Bless her, I am sure she lives her own private hell every day. Never knowing who he will grab next. Even for being a Kennedy woman, she must "look the other way" so many times she is probably cross eyed by now.



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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #68
74. I have sympathy for Maria. I've known women dealing with pigs.
He may even treat her decently in person. Just be a pig with other women.

Besides Ahnuld, my anger goes out to Oprah who is friends with Maria. During the recall campaign that Ahnuld avoided, he and Maria went on Oprah's show and she gave him her implied seal of approval.

Hell, Democratic women voted for him. Go figure.

Of course, BBV screw-ups were revealed after the fact. Hmmmm.
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #27
70. Cambone comes up repeatedly as one deeply involved in this project
Just for the record, Stephen Cambone was one of the signatories to the primary (public) PNAC document "Rebuilding America's Defenses", which is the blueprint for much of the horror that has occurred since the 2001 election.

It laid out:
- need for 'a new Pearl Harbor'
- invasion of Iraq

It has further, more ambitious goals.
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
100. I think the "white world"
Is the opposite of "black ops" or the world of espionage that is kept secret from the general public (who make up the overt "white world.")

I don't deny that the use of the 2 words has some underlying racists origins, but I don't think it's exactly what is meant in this case.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
28. what these people have done is unconscionable . . .
horrendous as wars are, for the past fifty years the world has at least had the Geneva Conventions to govern the treatment of prisoners . . . by unilaterally chucking them out the window, BushCo has put all future American prisoners, in this war and any that may follow, at great risk . . . these morons should be removed from office and prosecuted as war criminals . . . everyone from Bush right on down . . .
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #28
52. Your statement may be the best way to sell this argument. n/t
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
30. "President Bush was informed of the existence of the program."
What is this guy, a fucking potted plant? The mascot of an average sports franchise is more aware and has more operational say-so than this nothing.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #30
90. and his trusted "unsticker" condi approved the plan
it goes all the way to the top...BUSH knew and is just as responsible as rummy or anyone else.
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spotbird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
35. kick nt
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:54 PM
Original message
the bottom line is: We have a sick government that should be removed !
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Ah, grovelbot...my donation has wings and should appear on your
doorstep, Mon or Tues..

please let me know when you receive it..

thanks-
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. I mailed my check on Tuesday. DU IS THEE BEST!!!! n/t
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demlandslide2004 Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
41. I want Rum and Bush and Rice and Bush impeached NOW!
PRISONER ABUSE: PATTERNS FROM THE PAST

National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 122



After Congress began investigating reports of Central American atrocities in the mid 1980s, particularly in Honduras, the CIA's "Human Resource Exploitation" manual was hand edited to alter passages that appeared to advocate coercion and stress techniques to be used on prisoners. CIA officials attached a new prologue page on the manual stating: "The use of force, mental torture, threats, insults or exposure to inhumane treatment of any kind as an aid to interrogation is prohibited by law, both international and domestic; it is neither authorized nor condoned"-making it clear that authorities were well aware these abusive practices were illegal and immoral, even as they continued then and now.

Indeed, similar material had already been incorporated into seven Spanish- language training guides. More than a thousand copies of these manuals were distributed for use in countries such as El Salvador, Guatemala, Ecuador and Peru, and at the School of the Americas between 1987 and 1991.


An inquiry was triggered in mid 1991 when the Southern Command evaluated the manuals for use in expanding military support programs in Colombia. In March 1992 Cheney received an investigative report on "Improper Material in Spanish-Language Intelligence Training Manuals." Classified SECRET, the report noted that five of the seven manuals "contained language and statements in violation of legal, regulatory or policy prohibitions" and recommended they be recalled.

The memo is stamped: "SECDEF HAS SEEN." = (CHENEY)


http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB122/index.htm


If we the people do not send this white house a earful we have each other to blame...

email and call the whitehouse.......



Phone Numbers

Comments: 202-456-1111

Switchboard: 202-456-1414

FAX: 202-456-2461

TTY/TDD

Comments: 202-456-6213

Visitors Office: 202-456-2121

E-Mail

Traitor - President George W. Bush:

president@whitehouse.gov

Traitor - Vice President Richard Cheney:


vice.president@whitehouse.gov


http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact /







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MallRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
50. This is what we call "THE OTHER SHOE."
And I believe it just dropped. I think we may finally have reached critical mass on a Bushco scandal.

Funny... I was certain it was going to be Valerie Plame who would take down this administration. Guess I was wrong...

-MR
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. We're not done yet... theres the matter of Cheney...
They all have to be removed at once.

How will Cheney be wrangled?
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DaveSZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. This is why the neocons opted out of the Int. criminal court
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0514-11.htm


Published on Friday, May 14, 2004 by Reuters
US Pushes World Court Immunity Amid Iraq Scandal
by Carol Giacomo

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration is pursuing its campaign to protect Americans from International Criminal Court jurisdiction even as it deals with the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal that may involve some of the very war crimes the court was created to handle.

So far 89 countries have signed agreements with Washington promising that Americans accused of grave international offenses, including soldiers charged with war crimes, will be returned to U.S. jurisdiction so their cases can be decided by fellow Americans rather than international jurists.

Other states may soon be added, officials said this week.

"It's never been our argument that Americans are angels," one senior U.S. official told Reuters.


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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. If we keep following the invisible bread crumbs...
I wonder where we'll end up?
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-15-04 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
59. Blecht - thank you for the post.
After 3 1/2 years of dire suffering, I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel.

I believe what we are now reading is the final, conclusive end to Donald Rumsfeld. Try as he might, I'd like to see him talk his way out of this one.

He can't. There is absolutely nothing he can say now because of his big mouth last week, he has painted himself into a corner.

And I know Mr. Hersh is staking his reputation on this story. He simply can't go around making things up. Not this important. So he got the story (probably by clandestine means -- some disgruntled Pentagon employee spilled the story) and now Rummy's finished.

Thank God.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #59
63. It's not enough, way not enough..
One leg of the chair has been removed.
Can the chair stand on three legs?
The answer is yes, if it has to..
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Kool Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
62. Well, my goodness.
It looks like the party may be over for Donald. Watching these guys in action for the past three and a half years, I had a feeling that it just might be their arrogance that would do them in. And it looks like it has. Ever since the attacks in September of 2001, they have said and done anything they pleased, and most of the time, no one really called them on it. And if anyone did, they played the patriotism card, the "must support the President no matter what" card, the "oh, you bleeding heart liberals" card, you know what I mean. They lied and entered into an unnecessary war, and not too many peeps were heard, except for the anti-war people. So, naturally, they pretty much do whatever they please and feel that they don't have to go to the Congress or the American people or the rest of the world, for that matter, to get an okay to do anything.

Which brings us to this. Too much arrogance, too little planning, too much taken for granted. Who knew the players involved would record their deeds? Damn those digital cameras, right, Donald? If you listened to him last week, you would think that was the whole problem. NOT the torture, NOT the horrendous behavior. The damn pictures. Well, well, well...Looks like they really overstepped and they didn't think anyone would care. Or we would just keep our mouths shut and understand. They are the enemy, right? Wrong. They aren't my enemy, they hadn't done a thing to us. If they had kept after Bin Laden, they wouldn't be in this mess.

Just please, please, please let this not be swept under the rug. Let this not get explained away. Let this not get drowned out by another meaningless trip and photo-op. Let this be the last straw. Let this be the undoing of this whole entire regime in Washington. Please.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #62
66. Ahem..
"They are the enemy, right? Wrong. They aren't my enemy, they hadn't done a thing to us. If they had kept after Bin Laden, they wouldn't be in this mess."

The people running this country are from the Sicko Tribe of Repressed Bigots; where the 'art of piracy' is an elementary school mandate.

Yes, earlier tonight someone mentioned 'potted plants'..

I believe we have a menage of Venus Flytraps.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
67. Special-AcceSS Program
Sounds so blase and ordinary, but its the SS. Its the FUCKEN SS

Rumsfeld-Bush=War Criminals
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gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
72. This thread seems bulletproof
I haven't seen one froll (freeper troll) try to dispute or cast doubt on any of this. Take that, you fucking freeper scum! Your little stud skeletor and his crew tacitly approved the torture. Your heroes are thugs and criminals! But you freepers feed on hate, don't you?
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usregimechange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
77. This is the end of the Bush Administration and I should be happy
but this is just sad.
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tedzbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 04:08 AM
Response to Original message
78. I bet Hersh's main source (former intel officer) is Kenneth deGraffenreid!
Edited on Sun May-16-04 04:08 AM by tedthebear
Just because he's mentioned by name in the article doesn't mean he's not the source.

After all, he resigned when his sap monitoring was delegated to Cambone.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
85. Copper Green is (tortured) people!
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Sophree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #85
101. I know I shouldn't have laughed at that.
But I did. Shame on me. :spank:
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dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 08:41 AM
Response to Original message
87. Did Rumsfeld OK Prisoner Policy? - CBS
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld authorized the expansion of a secret program that encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners to obtain intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq, the New Yorker magazine reports

The Defense Department strongly denied the claims made in the report, which cited unnamed current and former intelligence officials and was published on the magazine's Web site. Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita issued a statement calling the claims "outlandish, conspiratorial, and filled with error and anonymous conjecture."

The story said Rumsfeld decided to expand the program last year, broadening a Pentagon operation from the hunt for al-Qaida in Afghanistan to interrogation of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/30/iraq/main6149...
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
88. Everybody is picking up this story today...
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=us&ie=UTF-8&s...
rumsfeld prison abuse "New Yorker"
1,370 hits
Could rummy be gone by June? I can hope...
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #88
91. Sip!
The admin is going to have to do a lot of spin control on this story.

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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #91
96. And can you believe the response from Sen. Inhofe????
He's upset with the outrage people have???

He needs a little taste of Rummy's medicine!!!
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. From Oklahoma what do you expect?
They raise animals and act like them too.
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ze_dscherman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #88
99. It was the top news in German television at prime time
This story is growing more legs than a millipede.
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
93. Where are the other Sy Hershes? What's with journalism these days?
This is the same amazing man who exposed the My Lai massacre. Now he's exposing Abu Ghraib. Is there only ONE MAN capable of this sort of reporting? What kind of journalists are we turning out these days?

He deserves a Pulitzer for this. And all the other baby reporters should take note of it!
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-16-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #93
98. Does it not seem funny that stories like this seem to come out.........
When they are lossing there ass. We also don't see too much of if it goes to plan. There are many things we never hear about till it's too late.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/buzzsaw10pg

Mass Media Cover-up
Leading Journalists Expose the Myth of a Free Press

(snip)
Robert McChesney has written or edited seven books and is currently research professor at the Institute of Communications Research at the University of Illinois. He has made more than 500 radio and TV appearances and has been the subject of nearly 50 published interviews.

Professional journalism had three distinct biases built into it, biases that remain to this day. First, it regarded anything done by official sources, for example, government officials and prominent public figures, as the basis for legitimate news. Second, professional journalism posited that there had to be a news hook or a news peg to justify a news story. helped to stimulate the birth and rapid rise of the public relations (PR) industry. Surveys show that PR accounts for anywhere from 40 to 70 percent of what appears as news. The third bias is that smuggles in values conducive to the commercial aims of the owners and advertisers as well as the political aims of the owning class. The affairs of government are subjected to much closer scrutiny than the affairs of big business. The genius of professionalism in journalism is that it tends to make journalists oblivious to the compromises with authority they routinely make. P. 367-369

Professional news media invariably take it as a given that the US has a right to invade any country it wishes for whatever reason it may have. Professional journalism equates the spread of free markets with the spread of democracy. To the US elite, however, democracy tends to be defined by their ability to maximize profit in a nation, and that is, in effect, the standard of professional journalism. P. 369, 370

is the striking consolidation of the media from hundreds of significant firms to an integrated industry dominated by less than ten enormous transnational conglomerates and rounded out by no more than another fifteen very large firms. The first tier giants include AOL Time Warner, Disney, Viacom, News Corporation, Bertelsmann, Vivendi Universal, Sony, AT&T, and General Electric. The nine or ten largest media conglomerates now almost all rank among the 300 largest firms in the world; in 1965, there were barely any media firms among the five hundred largest companies in the world. P. 371, 372

The largest ten media firms own all the US TV networks, most of the TV stations in the largest markets, all major film studios, all major music companies, nearly all of the cable TV channels, much of the book and magazine publishing , and much, much more. The logic of media industries is that a firm can no longer compete if it is not part of a larger conglomerate. General Electrics NBC is the only commercial TV network that does not own a major Hollywood film studio. P. 372
(snip)
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