Howard: Mirror has caused 'enormous damage'

[54anickel]

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/media/story/0,12123,1210072,00.html

Conservative leader Michael Howard today waded into the row over the Daily Mirror's allegations of torture by British soldiers, saying they had done "enormous damage" and warning that editor Piers Morgan would have to "take full responsibility" if they turn out to be false.

Speaking in the House of Commons today, Mr Howard said the authenticity of the pictures, which appear to show British soldiers torturing an Iraqi prisoner, was "a matter of the utmost seriousness".

"Does the prime minister agree ... that if turn out to be false it will be a matter of the utmost seriousness for which the editor will have to take full responsibility?" he asked.

But the prime minister, Tony Blair, refused to be drawn on the authenticity of the photographs, saying only that the allegations of torture were "extremely serious" and that he had "every confidence" in the investigation being carried out the Royal Military Police.

more...

[The Stranger]

1. "Under the Sprawling Chestnut Tree" (from memory)

Under the sprawling chestnut tree,
I sold you and you sold me,
There lie they and here lie we,
Under the sprawling chestnut tree . . .

[amber dog democrat]

16. Let me pour you a shot of Victory Gin

flavored with cloves, comrade.

Double Pluss Ungood. Refers to Unpersons and Unevents.
File in the Memory Hole.

Ignorance is stregnth.

[Briar]

2. Confidence?

"he had "every confidence" in the investigation being carried out the Royal Military Police."

Even more than he had in Hutton, I bet.

This investigation should be in the hands of a truly independent organisation, and one which can be trusted to hunt down the abusers, not the whistleblowers and newspaper editors.

[LibLabUK]

6. Hmm

"This investigation should be in the hands of a truly independent organisation,"

I imagine that the Metropolitan Police could handle the investigation, but outside of the RMP and the Met who else could?

"and one which can be trusted to hunt down the abusers, not the whistleblowers and newspaper editors."

Alledged abusers. There are serious concerns over the veracity of these photos.

The whistleblowers should come forward and face the people they're accusing.

Seems like an awful lot of people here on DU have no idea what "innocent til proven guilty" means. Unlike the US photos these photos don't identify any single soldier or prisoner, and were handed in by anonymous sources.. they are far from cut and dried proof of abuse.

[Philostopher]

10. You're right -- they are two separate incidents.

Regrettably, the taint of possible falseness on the UK photos is being used by the U.S. spinmeisters to conflate the doubts of authenticity to the ones showing the U.S. soliders and mounds of naked Iraqis. I don't know that we'll ever know the truth about the veracity of the 'anonymous' photos purporting abuse by British soldiers, but there don't seem to be many doubts about the veracity of the U.S. photos -- yet. Let the echo chamber toot its little horn long enough, with the lack of capacity for critical thinking that seems to plague us here now, and eventually the 'general public' will think 'hmm -- there was some question about whether the photos were authentic or not, wasn't there?'

This will be true, but not the U.S. photos -- only the veracity of the UK photos has been questioned (edit: as far as I know -- I can't keep up with who's saying what when). Try to tell that to people who have no critical thinking skills and don't want to admit that they took Mom's cow out to go to market and came back with a handful of beans called the Bush Administration, though.

[LibLabUK]

11. Exactly

The US photos can be verified quite easily as they were handed in by a known source, they contained identifiable soldiers, and an identifiable location. How anyone could argue that these could have been falsified is beyond me.

However, the UK photos could have easily been done in a studio in the UK (or anywhere).

It is my hope that the photos prove to be false, but I'm willing to keep an open mind at the moment. I don't find the idea of abuses by soldiers that suprising, although I do find it reprehensible... then again we don't tend to hold military personnel up as heroes or role-models in the UK as you do (or your media does) in the US.

[Philostopher]

13. No, but it did surprise me to see Brits accused.

Not because I think British soldiers are 'better' in some way, but because all indications were the Iraqis felt the British soldiers respected them (more than the Yanks, anyhow), and trusted them better than they did the other coalition soldiers. It was mostly just the attitude British grunts had about the whole thing -- Britain's history of colonialism is longer than America's, and I assumed the whole military culture was different. I think American GIs are allowed to believe the people they're guarding are somehow less than human. This is how these things happen -- when you allow people to see other humans as objects, they'll treat them like objects.

[LibLabUK]

15. Hmm..

I think you can see differences between the US and UK if you look at the interactions between the Iraqis and the troops.

British soldiers rely less on vehicles, and remove their helmets and sunglasses when talking to civilians. Something that has been learnt in N. Ireland. It's humanising, the civilians you come into contact with see you as a human like them instead of just a soldier.

In contrast, American soldiers rely heavily on vehicles, rarely remove their helmets or sunglasses.

The Parachute Regiment (UK) ran a school for US soldiers just after the fall of Baghdad, but it appears to have had little success at training them to handle civilian situations or was disregarded due to orders (not much you can do if you're ordered to remain in your vehicle I guess).

The result of the difference in attitude and approach to civilain interaction has been fewer (proportionally) casualties on the British side, and fewer incidents of civilians being injured at checkpoints in the British sector.

There was a report in the Guardian last week, British general officers were complainign that they thought that the Americans were being too brutal, and conversely US generals were saying the British were being too lenient. There is a significant difference in the ideology of our two armed forces, and I think you're right when you suggest it might be because of our colonial past.

[gratuitous]

3. Yes, reporting the truth does "enormous damage"

Gee Tony, remember when you were popular? Now you're reduced to silence as the slavering hordes of the conservatives, saliva dripping from their fangs and blood dripping from their nails, call to you with promises of solidarity against the devil media.

I will personally pardon you for a moment's reflection on how you ever came to this. Then I hope you're devoured, whole, live and screaming.

[samsingh]

4. what has happened to the leaders of the free world?

many are acting as dictators. Is this how tenuous our democratic values are?

[papau]

5. GB has a court case for wrongful Iraqi deaths about to go to trial

Seems Great Brittan still has a bit of freedom -

It is just the corporate controlled GOP and the fact the all 3 parts of gov plus our media are totally controlled by the rich and corporate that puts the USA on the low end of the freedom meter.

But that thought is so 9/10, isn't it?

[54anickel]

9. Tinfoil time -

Could these pics be some sort of red herring, bait to get off the abuse trail and make future claims by prisoners and whistleblowers subject to suspect in need of thorough and time consuming investigation?

Just a thought :shrug: :tinfoilhat:

[Leezamarie]

8. They were bought and blackmailed by the Bush cabal

and no longer represent us. Howard would not have wanted to do this but he has no choice. Tony can't speak so he must. Charles Kennedy had the job of starting the "support our troops" propaganda before the invasion. They are all in it together and we must have a clear out.

[amber dog democrat]

17. When push comes to shove

it may be expedient to temporarily suspend democratic values - until the state of emergency passes, meanwhile please have your identification cards handy.
That is all.

[DulceDecorum]

7. Just doing my job....

"The job of the newspaper is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable."
http://www.accd.edu/sac/j-p/comfort.html

[AussieInCA]

12. what hypocrits to call for full responsibility if it is wrong

what "full responsibility" have the likes of Howard taken for the "enormous damage" that has occured due to the false allegations that took us to war in Iraqi.

Can we remember them all...

"imminent threat", "WMD", "Terrorist links" etc. etc.

[T_i_B]

19. Howard is leader of the opposition,

which means it is his responsibility to ensure that the government takes "full responsibility" for its lies and duplicity over Iraq.

However, he's as much in bed with the PNAC as Blair is and his party supported the Iraq mess from the start. The tories refusal to admit that they were wrong on Iraq means they cannot function as an effective opposition on this issue in the slightest, and that is just one of the many, many issues where Blair has rendered the main opposition party irrelevent by copying their polices to the letter.

That's what Blair's cronies seem to like but I prefer a it when we voters actually have a choice about what policies are on the table. It's a sad situation when we have 2 conservative parties in this country instead of a conservative and a liberal party as should be the case in a fully functioning democracy.

[nolabels]

14. How about if they are correct, will Howard get charged

for complicity in aiding and abedding in the crimes of torture and murder. My thinking the whole invasion was this same crime

[LibLabUK]

18. aiding and abedding

I doubt he'll be charged with "abedding"... he sleeps in a coffin =)

I don't see how you could claim either Blair or Howard aided or abetted the crimes purportedly shown in those photos.

Unless ofcourse the soldiers in question were acting under orders... Which without reservation I believe they were not.

[nolabels]

22. Okay , I am not lawyer or Rhodes Scholar, but at least somebody has to ..

say something. I mean damn it anyway, I am just a diesel mechanic, but with so many others asleep at the wheel someone has to try mitigate this big train wreck that seems to becoming down the tracks. You Brits are not helping our moral much either.

Like you got 90% of the folks against Tony and his blindness. For heavens sake does Tony need a doctor or something? He surely needs some blood or something by now, he must have gotten his nose broken several times from having it so far up Georgie's ARSE. The Euros are sure to whip his a few times once they figure out the magnitude of the damage.

We might be part of the large unwashed class over here under the red light of Coroporate America, but you have a crushing majority over there and all that seems get done with it is sitting on hands.

My guess is the education level in Briton is much higher than in the US, but it gets used like a stumbling block or something, whats up with that?

Btw,I kind of knew that abedding was askew, but with them worthles whores they called embedded reporters it more than seemed fit

"Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject - otherwise there's no need for faith."

"The general root of superstition is that men observe when things hit, and not when they miss, and commit to memory the one, and pass over the other -Sir Francis Bacon 1561-1626"

"It's not easy to change world views. Faith has its own momentum and belief is comfortable. To restructure reality is traumatic and scary. That is why many intelligent people continue to believe: unbelief is an unknown. -Dan Barker"

http://www.miniluv.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=471

[LibLabUK]

24. Hmm

I'm sorry if I came across as patronising or condescending... it wasn't my intention. My pointing out your spelling error was rude of me and I apologise for that.

The problem I have with the criticism of Tony Blair I see on DU is that it is solely based on his record with regard to Iraq. His home record, although blemished by the Student Loans fiasco, is relatively good. He came into power after 18 years of damaging Conservative rule, in which services such as the NHS were run down through chronic underfunding and market-based initiatives (a solid reason why I don't trust people who preach free-market economics as a utopian ideal).

Some of the comments on DU are justified... his relationship with Bush is too close, and his support for the war in Iraq is almost unforgiveable...but to judge him solely on this, is to actually do hima great disservice.

The real problem is that there is no alternative but to vote Labour in the next election. A turn away from Labour would put the Conservatives back in, and I guarantee you that you will find them even more odious than Tony could ever possibly be. The LibDems are a joke, and unelectable outside of their safe seats and the occassional suprising result.


I'd like to say something else... not directed at you, but something that has been frustrating me for some time here at DU. The conspiracy theorists here... I think they do DU a great disservice, tarnishing the rational people here with the taint of the crank and crackpot.. so I'm not going to even address the Diana/Hutton/etc fantasists.

[nolabels]

27. Here in the hamburger slappin US of A the truth is alway hard to come by

So many feel the need to change things around to there way of thinking that Honest assessment is hard to get from anyone. When and if you did get it from them, there is good chance that it will change tomorrow.

Trying to extract the grains of truth from the things you learn about can be difficult and frustrating. Back about twenty years ago when the Iran - Contra scandal was breaking, I was listening to the story and thought some of it must of been fairy tales. After a few years watching it and seeing it go down, I came to realize it was much worse than most ever learned about.

Mostly the entire history over here that they teach in schools in these United States comes from that twisted kind of truth (or should I say lies). At any rate learning about it or what ever you can is important. You may come upon it in your life in real and very personal terms. At that time you will come to realize why it came to your attention.

The world is how you perceive it, till reality sets in. Peace is a place in your mind they haven't figured out how to steal yet. :thumbsup:

[nolabels]

23. Really I was only joking there LibLabUK

As a matter of fact a much endeared instigative report got a job working over there with you guys. He is one of our Hommies from So.California

He did this book



(snip)
INTERVIEW WITH GREG PALAST, MUCKRAKER EXTRAORDINAIRE
Bad Subjects
Tuesday May 4, 2004 Interview with Greg Palast, Muckraker Extraordinaire
by John Brady

As all but the hopelessly naive know, lies, half-truths and spin are part of the daily routine of politics. Yet as all but the most stubbornly cynical also know, it is sometimes possible to cut through the layers of deception and misdirection to get the truth and give the public a much-needed view of who is trying to rig the political game and for what ends. In an era such as our present one, when the normally high stakes are even higher, when political decision making becomes life and death decision making, the need to reveal what goes on behind the scrim of spin becomes especially pressing.

t is at times like these that muckrakers, troublemakers, and whistle blowers — with their dogged determination to get the facts straight, their impatience with corruption, cronyism, and secrecy — really come into their own.
(snip)
http://www.gregpalast.com/

[maddezmom]

20. the british are investigating abuse from1 yr ago ~ separate incidents

<Meanwhile, Ingram, the British armed forces minister, also confirmed that separate allegations against eight British soldiers accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners a year ago are being "thoroughly investigated." But he added that the inquiry will take some time.>


http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/05/b34e728f-7373-4638-91b6-ed633e7d29cb.html

I posted a link on this a few days ago, but can't find it now. They are using the fake/hoax as a cover.

[maddezmom]

21. 33=12 still open,15 closed charge and 6 referred for poss. prosecution

<<Mr. Ingram disclosed that since the outset of hostilities in Iraq, 33 cases of civilian deaths, injuries or ill treatment had been investigated by the British military. He said 12 cases were still under investigation. Of the 21 inquiries that have been completed, 15 were closed without charges and 6 were referred for possible prosecution. He gave no further details.>>


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/international/05BRIT.html

[fedsron2us]

25. Britain is an accessory ........

to every killing, torture, abuse, and human rights violation that has occurred in Iraq since the initial invasion regardless of whether or not its troops have committed them. The veracity of the Daily Mirror photographs makes no difference to that situation. The attached article from Simon Jenkins in todays Times makes the point very well

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,482-1098486,00.html

As a Briton I find the crimes committed in Iraq a source of deep shame both to myself and my country.

[gasperc]

26. God forbid the written words in the scathing reports carry weight

but, oh fuck, there's pictures, well they just have to be doctored!!!

"what report, I never read any report, oh my God those pictures are atrocious, My god what if they are doctored!!!"

but sir, the military report has interviews of hundreds being abused

howard "fuck you"