Greek sovereignty to be massively limited: Juncker

[stockholmer]

Source: Reuters

(Reuters) - Greece faces severe restrictions on its sovereignty and must privatize state assets on a scale similar to the sell off of East German firms in the 1990s after communism fell, Eurogroup chairman Jean-Claude Juncker said.

In an interview published after euro zone finance ministers in the Eurogroup approved a further 12 billion euro ($17.43 billion) installment of Greece's bailout, Juncker said he was optimistic that measures agreed with Athens would help to resolve the country's problems. "The sovereignty of Greece will be massively limited," he told Germany's Focus magazine in the interview released on Sunday, adding that teams of experts from around the euro zone would heading to Greece.

"For the forthcoming wave of privatizations they will need, for example, a solution based on a model of Germany's 'Treuhand agency'," Juncker added, referring to the privatization agency that sold off 14,000 East German firms between 1990 and 1994.

The Greek parliament voted on Thursday to set up a privatization agency under austerity plans agreed with the European Union and IMF which have provoked violent protests on the streets of Athens.

clip

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/03/us-greece-juncker-idUSTRE7620ZK20110703?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews&dlvrit=56943

[plumbob]

1. Private companies owning public assets using taxpayer money to finance

the purchase which the companies need never pay back.

Is this a great world we live in or what?



Don't know when people will get really tired of having little pieces of paper controlling their lives and just decide to have a big bonfire consisting of so-called legal documents, loan agreements, money, and the like.

[cstanleytech]

15. Its sucks thats true but did they

have any better options on the table that would have worked?

[plumbob]

28. Sure. Burn the notes and tell the investors, "That's what risk means, baby!"

Solved.

Plenty of money now that the country is debt free.

[cstanleytech]

31. And then they watch as no one agrees to lend them credit to purchase things they cant

make or produce...............not exactly the best plan there imo.

[plumbob]

34. Credit was unheard of for most of the existence of the planet.

I have not banked in any way since 1978, and I haven't missed a thing. Now that I don't pay others for the use of my own money, everything is much more affordable.

Try it. You'll like it, once you get the hang of it.

(And as the holder of an economics degree, here's the thing: demand for things locally yields local suppliers. Read Wealth of Nations. This race to the bottom is the antithesis of production, the only basis of wealth. The only reason they don't produce some things locally is because folks elsewhere will work for nearly nothing doing it, and we allow it. Then, because that lowers our own wages, we have to borrow to buy the things serfs make elsewhere, further reducing our incomes. It's no good.)

[cstanleytech]

36. Times change though and more countries are dependant on trade for items

then they used to be for imported goods.

[plumbob]

39. Yes, the dependence and helplessness are built in. Time to stop that.

It only benefits a tiny elite.

[cstanleytech]

40. Good luck with that.

[plumbob]

41. I've been done with banking since 1978. No accounts, no loans, no

debit or credit cards, nothing.

We estimate that our actual spendable income is about 50% higher than it would be if we dealt with financial institutions - banks, credit unions and the like. So I'm not guessing.

[cstanleytech]

42. I meant good luck with getting it working in greece for everyone including the government.

I just dont think however you will have much if any luck spreading the word there.

[plumbob]

47. No, the fascists in charge will kill as many as they need to

prevent that. I won't have much luck spreading the word here except to my senior economics students each year.

[No Elephants]

61. Keep trying.

[quakerboy]

89. a question

How do you get money. Do you have the only employer Ive heard of who will will pay cash.

Alternately, how do you deal with housing, and how would you recommend that a person go about housing? At a renting level, its possible to work via money orders. But it seems to be a catch 22, particularly if you want ownership. Its beyond most peoples means to buy outright, so loans almost unavoidable if you want to buy. Or save cash? The idea of storing a hundred grand or more in ones (rental, meaning others have keys) home is slightly alarming.

[Long Shadow]

91. So, I take it you are okay with the US defaulting as well...

[Yo_Mama]

46. Not for Greece

That is the only reason they are doing this. They are running a primary deficit, and would still need to borrow even if they had no debt. Last year their deficit was 10.6% of GDP. Without these massive changes, there seems no way to get their annual deficit below 9%.

Obviously a lot of their debt has to be written off, but Greece also has to rework their entire economy in order to get to a point at which they can run a primary surplus. Doing that would allow them to repudiate their debt.

When you have to borrow to meet your spending needs even without paying any interest, then it is very destructive just to repudiate your debt - where do you go from there? You face austerity and a crippling economic collapse either way.

[StarsInHerHair]

83. actually true, Iceland let the investors feel the consequences of their risk

& they're doing MUCH BETTER than Greece. It's on Bloomberg

[yurbud]

52. I would accept abject poverty over corporate slavery

[Xithras]

2. No 2nd Amendment in Greece.

A shame...

[HankyDubs]

3. because what you really need to solve this problem is lots of violence

great point :sarcasm:

[Xithras]

4. If this isn't legitimate grounds for civil war, I don't know what is

The banksters aren't merely profiting on the backs of the people and stepping on the poor anymore. They're going to strip an entire nation of its assets and limit the power of its government. You do know that Greece is a democracy, right? "Limiting sovereignty" means they're stripping the people of the right to rule their own nation, and subjugating the government to the bankers. They are openly stating that they aren't going to allow the Greeks to rule themselves anymore.

There are instances where violence and rebellion are justified. Increasingly, this looks like one of them.

[jwirr]

11. Argentina all over.

[HankyDubs]

14. the stupidity of using violence to solve problems

has been demonstrated countless times.

[Occulus]

21. What happens when you eliminate violence completely?

Do the matters in question become more civil, or do the truly bad actors get worse because they know you won't take them out?

[Mojorabbit]

24. Sure, just like the founding of the USA. nt

[No Elephants]

63. Taxation without representation?

[TexDevilDog]

48. Just like the violence Lincoln used against the south. Right?

With your way, we would still have slavery. The world is not black and white or as simple as some people think it is.

[No Elephants]

64. Civil War and the current situation in Greece are apples and oranges, to say the least.

"The Battle of Fort Sumter (April 12–13, 1861) was the bombardment and surrender of Fort Sumter, near Charleston, South Carolina, that started the American Civil War. Following declarations of secession by seven Southern states, South Carolina demanded that the U.S. Army abandon its facilities in Charleston Harbor. On December 26, 1860, U.S. Major Robert Anderson surreptitiously moved his small command from the indefensible Fort Moultrie on Sullivan's Island to Fort Sumter, a substantial fortress controlling the entrance of Charleston Harbor. An attempt by U.S. President James Buchanan to reinforce and resupply Anderson, using the unarmed merchant ship Star of the West, failed when it was fired upon by shore batteries on January 9, 1861. South Carolina authorities then seized all Federal property in the Charleston area, except for Fort Sumter."

Read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Sumter

It's also untrue to say that, if people who advocate nonviolence had their way, we'd still have slavery.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

88. That was... um... damn. Can't describe this post without breaking the rules.

[provis99]

55. violence is extremely successful.

Non-violence routinely fails. So I don't know what your complaint is.

[No Elephants]

59. Ghandi and MLK, among others, would be surprised.

[provis99]

78. MLK was unsuccessful. And Ghandi threatened armed rebellion.

So your examples don't work.

[totodeinhere]

19. But the people's elected representatives in parliament are the ones who voted for it.

So indirectly the people of Greece did approve this program. And parliament didn't have to vote for it if they didn't want to. And if the people of Greece don't like it, the next time there is an election they can elect people who advocate canceling the agreement with the IMF or simply not honoring it.

[unblock]

23. more to the point, the people of greece voted for the officials who racked up the debt originally

so indirectly, the people of greece approved of getting greece into this mess in the first place.

[No Elephants]

60. Only some of them and only if we're speaking purely theoretically.

Besides, I'm not sure if we know exactly who is responsible for Greece's dire straits, which, as I understand it, have to do in no small part with the same credit default swaps that brought our economy to its kneew in 2008.

[StarsInHerHair]

86. & I'm sure when campaigning those politicians were SO honest! Just like

the Tories & Dems!

[Fool Count]

27. By that "next time" all public assets will already be

given away to a bunch of international capitalists. That "they elected them" argument is nothing but a perfect illustration of
the coercive nature of the fake capitalist "democracy". The sole purpose of that fraudulent system is to serve as a mechanism for
putting blame on the victims and making ordinary people even less powerful.

[No Elephants]

65. Strong words. I agree with most of them, though.

I do think we can have capitalism that isn't corrupt.

We don't, though.

[socialist_n_TN]

75. There you go. This is a perfect example of why

bourgeoisie "democracy" is in reality, the dictatorship of capital.

[unblock]

22. it seems this time that a democracy decided to encumber themselves with unsusatainable debts

it's not like a dictator imposed an untenable situation on the masses. the anger should be directed to the earlier set of elected officials who couldn't keep greece's fiscal house in order.

one can certainly have policy differences as to how to solve the mess, and i'm certain that the bankers' recommendations aren't favoring the poor. but, if you believe they've had a functioning democracy when they got into this mess, you can't really just blame the bankers for pushing a solution. it's up to the greeks to come up with a better one and default isn't a solution, it's just compounding the problem.

[brentspeak]

25. Bankers played a great role in Greece's spiraling debt

Read: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,676634,00.html

And yes, an http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13956331">orderly default is the solution (or rather, would have been the solution: the austerity measures and the initial loan package have already gone through, so now it's all too late for Greece). At least in that scenario, the Greek people would be able to hold onto their own public assets.

Greece's debt is now too large to ever be paid-off, and -- after all the IMF and Eurogroup loans and forced austerity -- the nation http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/80698,business,pimco-boss-warns-greece-will-default-anyway">will be forced to default on its debt, anyway. So, no: the global bankers' aren't pushing some "solution" to save Greece; they're simply pushing to be able to grab as much of Greece's public assets at garage sale prices as possible before the eventual default. The Greek people understand this.

[unblock]

29. nothing there lets greek elected officials off the hook.

i'm not claiming that goldman sachs or any other bank was really looking out for the interests of the average greek citizen -- but that was the job of the greek elected officials and the greek people and institutions.

[No Elephants]

67. Maybe, but the Greek people were not to blame, anymore than I was to blame

for what the U.S. government has done.

The anger should be directed at BOTH the investment bankers and the elected officials, much as in the U.S., but blaming the people who have a choice between Frick and Frack and probably never heard of a mortgage derivative security or a credit default swap until it was way too lete is not reality-based. Reminds me of those who originally tried to blame our situation in 2008 on "liar loans."

The blame is on nearly unbounded greed and those who facilitate it under the rubric of job creation or some other positive sounding label.

[unblock]

72. xithras' post, to which i responded, pointed out that greece was a democracy

one cannot have it both way. greece being a democracy means that the greek people, collectively, are ultimately responsible for the screwups of their elected officials. i understand the reality that not all elected officials do the bidding of the people, here or there, but it's not like they were completely powerless or completely innocent victims.

and again, i'm not letting hyperaggressive and irresponsible lenders off the hook, but i'm also not letting irresponsible borrowers off the hook, either. SOME of the borrowers were completely duped, and i certainly don't blame anyone who was outright lied to; but quite a lot of the borrowers knew they were taking a risk, and all of them signed forms that they should have read, at least the truth in lending statements and other disclosures (yes, i know, no one other than lawyers and me actually reads that damn stack of paper, but still...). we do live in a bit of a caveat emptor economy. personally, i get a ton of mail pushing me to do things that would be financially unwise, and it's up to me to know what's prudent and what's not.

as for the greeks, if one is going to talk about democracy, one must talk about the shared responsibility for the state of the state.

you and i are both responsibilty for the state of the u.s. we have not done enough to right our ship. partly this is because our democracy is looking far more like a plutocracy than a democracy, but then it is up to us to fix THAT as well.

[Xithras]

32. Doesn't matter.

Governments answer to their citizens first, not to the bankers or the international community. The moment a government places something as unimportant as money above the health, happiness, and well being of its own citizens, that government should be eradicated.

Governments exist to represent the people. Not corporations, bankers, or international investors.

[unblock]

33. it's not about money vs. the people.

money has to be paid one way or another. yeah, they can default, which merely means they'll be paying a lot more for borrowing well into the future.
but regardless of when or whether they default, or what a restructuring plan looks like, the tab is huge and they must pay.

the question is, how will the pain be distributed? as in america, it seems that the poor and the ordinary people are the big targets, and the rich and powerful are not being asked to do anything remotely decents, let along honorable. THAT is the real issue.

and money is hardly "unimportant", nor is it so easily disentangle from the health, happiness, and well being of a government's citizens. it is the means by which government can (at least if it cares to) achieve those end.

[No Elephants]

68. Governments answer to their citizens first? Really?

Over 70% of people polled wanted a public option. Ditto, an end after midterms to tax cuts for those making over $250K a year. Ditto no cuts to Medicare.

We got no public option, the tax cuts were extended and now both Parties are talking about cutting Medicare.

Yes, in theory, governments exist to serve the people, but, in reality, they don't.

[socialist_n_TN]

76. As in my other post, ........

I'll repeat because it's important. If capitalism is more important than democracy, you don't HAVE a democracy. PERIOD and end of story.

[socialist_n_TN]

74. Hell, X the Greek PM ADMITTED as much

When he said that the financial markets were more important than the will of the people. To paraphrase it he's saying, basically, that capialism is more important than democracy.

HOW MUCH CLEARER CAN IT BE?

[StarsInHerHair]

85. actually it's no longer considerd capitalism.......

http://www.starsoverwashington.com/2011/01/fdr-quote-on-essence-of-fascism.html

http://thinkexist.com/quotes/franklin_d._roosevelt/


added links

[StarsInHerHair]

84. FDR had something to say about this problem...

"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in essence, is Fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power" FDR

[stockholmer]

5. How did that Revolutionary War work out for you in the USA? Not so well without the muskets, eh?

Be it banker or king, despotism must eventually be overthrown, or tyranny shall reign. When systemic controllers make make peaceful revolution impossible, they also make violent revolution inevitable.

Love the double standards and willful denials of reality that the Western apologists always seem to imply when it comes to people in the cross-hairs of the oligarchic banking/war/rigged-market capitalism machine that emanates out from Washington DC and the City of London.

[aquart]

6. Well, we had muskets. So it was fine.

Our revolution was a little different though. Britain was trying to keep us from appropriating the rest of the continent and we thought, no. If your argument is against privatization (and mine usually is), you probably don't want to look too closely at USA beginnings.

We were absolute rat bastards on that topic.

[stockholmer]

7. agreed, and in Greece's case, the banker/state nexus is trying to appropriate the national land,

treasure and wealth. The problem today in so much of the world is that many state governments are simply tools of the financial controllers, and so they use state power to appropriate either private or sovereign property and turn it over (at pennies on the pound) to powerful trans-national conglomerates, who then use these acquisitions to further enslave the citizens via confiscatory rate usages charges and monopolistic-enabled huge price spikes.

Another aspect is the regulatory apparatus set up that kills off small and mid-sized business competition in favour of the huge companies. This started in the USA during the so-called Progressive Era under Theodore Roosevelt, wherein huge monopolies like Standard Oil, etc, utilized a 'don't throw me in the briar patch' argument to get the force of government into regulating business practices (regulations that many times in the 100 years since they have written, then had a bought and paid for Congress pass). Far from creating a free market, this quashed their rivals in so many cases, and made it exceedingly hard for small entrepreneurs to compete.

The US Animal ID act is a perfect example, wherein a small sized chicken farmer has to pay exorbitant licensing fees per chicken, thus forcing them out of business, whilst monstrously huge consortiums like Tyson, etc, simply are allowed to buy one large bulk license that covers millions of birds.

Check out New Left historian Gabriel Kolko, who in his book "The Triumph of Conservatism: A Reinterpretation of American History, 1900-1916."
In it, he lays out a case for the rise of modern corporatist system during the Progressive Era.
This in turn, allows for the violation of the post's Principle 2 – No socialization of losses and privatization of gains
(ie the confluence of big business and big government in mutual reinforcement)

http://www.amazon.com/Triumph-Conservatism-Gabriel-Kolko/dp/0029166500




Kolko was soon joined by other New Left historians such as William Appleman Williams in challenging the reigning "corporate liberal" orthodoxy. Rather than "the people" being behind these "progressive reforms," it was the very elite business interests themselves responsible, in an attempt to cartelize, centralize and control what was impossible due to the dynamics of a competitive and decentralized economy.

.............in advancing the corporate liberalism idea whereby the old Progressive historiography of the "interests" versus the "people" was reinterpreted as a collaboration of interests aiming towards stabilizing competition . According to Grob and Billias, "Kolko believed that large-scale units turned to government regulation precisely because of their inefficiency" and that the "Progressive movement - far from being antibusiness - was actually a movement that defined the general welfare in terms of the well-being of business" . Kolko, in particular, broke new ground with his critical history of the Progressive Era. He discovered that free enterprise and competition were vibrant and expanding during the first two decades of the twentieth century; meanwhile, corporations reacted to the free market by turning to government to protect their inherent inefficiency from the discipline of market conditions. This behavior is known as corporatism, but Kolko dubbed it "political capitalism." Kolko's thesis "that businessmen favored government regulation because they feared competition and desired to forge a government-business coalition" is one that is echoed by many observers today . Former Harvard professor Paul H. Weaver uncovered the same inefficient and bureaucratic behavior from corporations during his stint at Ford Motor Corporation (see Weaver's The Suicidal Corporation <1988>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Kolko
http://users.crocker.com/~acacia/kolko.html
http://miltenoff.tripod.com/Kolko.html
http://www.stateofnature.org/liberalElitesAnd.html

[joshcryer]

16. There are plenty of non-US examples and unfortunately violence is a solution...

...when the other options don't pan out.

And I'm not talking about burning down banks and destroying property.

[JDPriestly]

9. Muskets and guns would be of no help in a civil war today.

Think drones and electronic crowd control. Muskets and guns are a thing of the past.

[Xithras]

13. In most of the world, rifles and guns are all that's needed.

A revolution in the U.S. would require a bit more, but that's not what we're discussing here.

Greece has a relatively small military. It also has mandatory conscription, meaning that all men are trained in weapons use and know how to fight. Most of its terrain is also favorable to guerrilla warfare.

Guns and rifles may not be able to overthrow every country, but that doesn't mean that they can't overthrow any country. A couple hundred thousand armed men could overwhelm their military, rapidly overthrow their government, and hang the bodies of the executed bankers from the sides of the Acropolis..

[JDPriestly]

8. Our NAFTA and other "free trade" agreements limit our

right to self-government. That is one of the reasons I oppose them. The mega-corporations move in, control the substitute for our judicial system with regard to trade matters and can overrule our government on matters of local rule -- like which truckers are allowed to drive on our roads.

It is subtle but true.

Greece is a test case. If the mega-corporations succeed in setting aside the Greek government, they will try to set aside governments around the world including our own.

[pampango]

44. True. Any agreement with another country or the act of joining an international organization

(other than a debating society) diminishes a nation's sovereignty. The nature of agreements is that one side agrees to do (or not do) something in exchange for the other side doing something (or not). Hence our freedom of action (and sovereignty) is more limited than before the agreement.

As a nation we could choose to avoid any international agreements so as to maintain complete freedom to act as we wish and maximize our sovereignty. There are many "on both sides of the aisle" who believe that the UN, WTO, ICC, Kyoto, NAFTA, etc. all diminish our sovereignty because we commit to act in certain ways as a member of each organization, hence losing the sovereignty to act as we wish.

[JDPriestly]

51. For me, it is a question of balance. The free trade agreements,

especially NAFTA, go too far. The UN Charter pretty reasonably governs the relationships between countries. That is my opinion.

[socialist_n_TN]

77. I'm going to keep repeating this because it's

SO important. When capitalism is more important than democracy, you don't HAVE a democracy.

[jwirr]

10. That is no surprise. They are now run by the corporations and there

is not enough room for both democracy and corporatists. Mussolini knew that.

[alfredo]

12. This is what the republicans want: America sold off to the

multinationals for pennies on the dollar.

[No Elephants]

66. Democrats have not done too badly with helping the rich get richer.

[alfredo]

70. The DLC was Republican lite

[w4rma]

17. Are the ones who allowed this to happen stupid or corrupt?

No amount of bailout LOAN is worth this.

[walerosco]

20. agree

They should default immediately and start restructuring their debt now. They should also get out of the EU and switch to the dragma, so they can at least start printing its own money

[No Elephants]

69. Some are smart, some are stupid and most are corrupt or give in to those who are. At least, that's

how I see it in this country.

[Meeker Morgan]

18. Massively limited sovereignty ...

... coming soon to other EU members as they mess up one at a time?

This isn't just bad for Greece, it sets a bad precedent.

[bemildred]

26. Limited sovereignty is an oxymoron. nt

[leveymg]

30. You mean, like, massively limited virginity?

:evilgrin: Couldn't resist that :evilgrin:

[bemildred]

43. Yeah, exactly, but it would be like post-hymeneal virginity, or subordinate independence.

History is full of such, and it is always bullshit.

[annabanana]

35. Someone tell me why this couldn't happen here. Please. . . . n/t

[No Elephants]

62. We're too big to fail. And we have a stronger military than Greece.

But, I'm not saying it couldn't happen here. It would just be a lot harder.

[unkachuck]

37. capitalists....

....put the world and Greece in a bad way, now they want to buy Greek public assets pennies on the dollar in order to save the Greeks from capitalists....

"...must privatize state assets on a scale similar to the sell off of East German firms..."

"For the forthcoming wave of privatizations...", bend over and Greece up....

....that's just more junk from juncker; it's not too late Greece, to set yourself free....default, default, default!

[JCMach1]

38. The Conquest of Europe by German Bankers continues...

[FLPanhandle]

45. Greece debt is primarily held by French Bankers

Funded by German taxpayers.

[JCMach1]

49. Yeah, but the pain... i.e. the bailout is controlled by the ECB

and the whims of the German bankers who largely control it.

[entanglement]

50. The EUrocrats / IMF / bankers aim to make an example of Greece. Their plan to smash Greek workers

and rob Greek public assets on a grand scale is well on its way, even as the corrupt and weak Greek ruling class watches on.

[sendero]

53. This entire situation...

... is a temporary band aid only kicks the can down the road a few more months. The Greek people see that and that's why they opposed to continuing the game.

The banksters won't stop until the have picked the corpse clean.

This scenario will play out in Spain, Portugal, Ireland and perhaps Italy until someone says "enough".

[WatsonT]

54. When you take someones cash you have to play by their rules

This shouldn't surprise anyone.

I can understand why the germans are pissed at having to subsidize the greeks and would attach riders to that check.

[No Elephants]

56. We owe more per capita than Greece. Ain't we lucky the U.S. is too big to fall?

[laser_red]

57. the US prints its own currency

the US economy, per capita, is 2X that of Greece.
or, more likely, 5X that of Greece

the US has a lot of room for tax changes.
Greece is already heavily taxed

[Nihil]

58. "Greece is already heavily taxed"

:rofl:

If that were the case, they wouldn't be in such a state today and there
wouldn't be so much resistance from the other European states to bailing
them out.

[laser_red]

79. 23% VAT, you don't consider that as high? nt

[Nihil]

87. Gosh ... that makes it a whole 3% higher than our VAT! BFD.

VAT is about the only thing that the general public *do* pay
in Greece (though the accounting activities of the next level
up manage to transform a surprising amount of VAT collected
into vapour that doesn't make it into the country's funds ...).

On the other hand, I pay my income tax, my national insurance,
my road tax, ... whereas a large number of Greek citizens seem
to hold it as a point of honour not to do any of those, in the
hope that other nations will bail them out as & when necessary.

There is a wide gulf between "theoretical Greek tax liabilities"
and "actual Greek tax payments". That gulf starts from the top,
runs through all corporations, all prefecture administrations
and most citizens. The result is the begging bowl (again).

I do not deny that once you get to this stage, the jackals from
the IMF (+ Goldman-Sachs & all of the other exploitative Chicago-school
scum) will start to circle in the certain knowledge that they can
both make the situation far worse whilst profiting handsomely
from it. What I'm saying is that this stage is a few blocks down
the road from "hey, why should *I* pay taxes if I don't want to?".


(Edited to clarify)

[No Elephants]

71. So, China and others are cool with being paid in U.S. dollars hot off the press?

No rumblings so far? No dangers down the road? I don't think that's so.

Agree our economy is bigger, and we could certainly tax big business more. My equation was undertaxed AND ill-served. I think Greek individuals have gotten a lot more from their government than we have and that affects how much you can keep raising taxes. Not saying the U.S. wouldn't get sway with raising taxes on individuals, but I'm not sure anyone has the political will to do it or that the Tea Party wouldn't look to its Second Amendment remedies if someone tried.

Also, there are articles out there saying Greeks don't actually pay their taxes, so, in their case, enforcement may be more important than legislation. Of course, enforcement costs money, too....

Most of all though, my post was not intended to be a direct comparison of the Greek and U.S. economies and tax structures. It was mostly tongue in cheek. It's fair for you to respond to it with facts, but I was being almost 100% flip.

[harun]

90. They are not cool with it but prefer it to the alternative, which would

be a default. At least with "hot of the presses" they get something.

[Odin2005]

73. The EU is the German Empire without the Kaiser.

[laser_red]

80. closer to the Roman Empire. Germans are being looted. nt

[Odin2005]

81. LOL, it's Greece that's being looted.

[laser_red]

82. please explain .nt