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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 12:24 AM
Original message
(British Anti-Austerity Cuts) Protesters Break Into Government Department (Pic Heavy)
Edited on Thu Oct-21-10 01:23 AM by Turborama
Source: The Guardian

Three protesters have been arrested after breaking into the Department of Business, Innovation and Skills in Whitehall following demonstrations against the cuts in chancellor George Osborne's comprehensive spending review.

Scotland Yard said 12 protestors broke into the building on Victoria Street in central London at around 8pm. A spokesman said: "Police were called at about 8pm this evening after 12 people forced entry into a building . Three were arrested on suspicion of criminal trespass, the rest left the building voluntarily."

The incident came hours after around 3,000 people, mainly students and trade unionists, massed in Whitehall to protest against the cuts, which include the loss of 490,000 public sector jobs and a 40% cut in university teaching budgets.

Around 2,500 people marched from Lincoln's Inn Fields to Whitehall during the afternoon, including hundreds of students who had marched from the University of London Union to the assembly point. They were addressed by former Labour MP Tony Benn, trade union leaders and US human rights campaigner Jesse Jackson.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/oct/20/protest-government-department-spending-review



What's going on in Britain under their new coalition government is a Teahadist's wet dream. See here for more details and some really good articles on the cuts: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/spending-review

This one by Polly Toynbee (in which she describes the cuts as "beyond the dreams of Margaret Thatcher") is a good example and well worth a read: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/oct/20/spending-review-fuss-polly-toynbee">Spending review: What's all the fuss about? Just you wait

AFP: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iDGNWd_JFV7Zrs0oWd5r20c3n9Nw?docId=CNG.b489317f1441b83b6e6d258345925f7b.261">Austerity cuts will change Britain forever: press

Video of Jesse Jackson addressing the protesters: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x517226


Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander is ambushed by protesters as he gives television interviews
near parliament.



Demonstrators hold placards as they prepare to march towards Downing Stree


A demonstrator from http://www.waronwant.org/">War On Want wearing a mask depicting the chancellor, George
Osborne, protests against goverment spending cuts.







Protesters gather outside Downing Street.
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
1. Why, it looks like Paris!
With signs in English.
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Merlot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. It looks organized and well attended, just like Paris.
How soon before the brits run out of petrol?
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. Why the fuck does ever other Western Democracy have much better citizens' resistance
...than we do?

Or is that a rhetorical question?
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Middle eastern theocracies also have huge angry crowds, as do Far-East dictatorships.
Pointless, empty, symbolism, knows no specific political boundaries.

The question is whether it translates to actual votes, or actual change, or if it's just an excuse to act like pouting children throwing a tantrum.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Glad you can dismiss all those protesters as "pouting children throwing a tantrum!"
Damn, why those spoiled little ones making such a stink about their social safety net being shredded by the elites!?
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. What did Tian-Anmen change?
Kent state?

People shed blood, and nothing changed.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Protests in France have a long history of being successful. There was even a big one in the US once
That led to independence.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. The 1776 revolution was fought with signs and puppets?
I'm pretty sure that wasn't in my history books.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. It started with *PROTESTS*
I'm quite sure that must have been your history books. Maybe you just weren't paying attention or were playing hookey?
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #16
28. "Protests" for 300 years didn't do much.
That's my point.

It's theater.

"Hey, look at the people who are angry!"

It accomplishes NOTHING.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. Your "point" has been disproved multiple times
If you don't get it yet, there's really no chance of you ever getting it.

Perhaps you think people should just sit back and let their governments et al shit on them between elections?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #28
38. and you also say that normal politics accomplishes nothing. so i guess nothing has ever happened at
all.

in the entire history of the world.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #38
49. lmfao
nothing EVER happens....nothing to see here...move along.....
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #38
61. +1 :D
:thumbsup:
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. the boston tea party
was not in your history books?

what about the berlin wall, people just crossed at checkpoint charlie and then a huge crowd formed when they realized they would not be shot, soon people on the west of the wall were there and they tore down the wall themselves.....
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. Action was in my books. Drumming circles and signs, not so much.
If you think the fall of the wall was that simple, I don't know what to say, other than "read more".
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #30
45. read more???
some people from east berlin had been protesting at the wall for days or weeks, then one day someone crossed to the west, everyone watched and when the soldiers didnt fire people began streaming across and were joined by fellow germans on the west, they started to rip the fucking wall down while east german soldiers were still there but by then it was all over, the people had won
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
27. no, they dressed up like indians instead, & destroyed property.
then there's this:

At dawn the next day, 20 men led by Mudgett with faces blackened with soot entered Whiting's room and assaulted him and his deputy with tree switches. They gave him one lash for every tree for which they were being fined. They cut off the ears and shaved the manes and tails of Whiting and Quigley's horses to render them valueless. In a further effort to disgrace the men, the people of Weare forced Whiting and Quigly to ride out of town through a gauntlet of jeering townspeople.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Tree_Riot


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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #27
46. sounds like they took it to the boss man to me!
and wow, because of such actions of violent protest, the usa as an idea and a country was born and went on to win its independence.... not to mention peaceful protest like printing and passing out banned books such as common sense
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enlightenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
68. Actually, a good bit of it was fought with signs.
And puppets, too. Punch (Punch and Judy) was banned in 17th century England because of fears that the shows were pushing revolutionary propaganda.

Revolution doesn't start with a battle, though it may end with one. It starts - as did the American Revolution and the French Revolution and every other revolution - with words. Spoken, written, disseminated. Collected, passed along, shared, and embraced. Translated into treatises, tracts, signs, cartoons, plays - and puppet shows. Sometimes those words, signs, cartoons, and even puppets led to a collective decision to undertake actual resistance. Sometimes they fizzled.

Maybe you should have read your history books.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. Here's another couple of clues... Look up "Lech Walesa" & "Indonesia May 1998" n/t
Edited on Thu Oct-21-10 03:26 AM by Turborama
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. kent state turned public opinion against the vietnam war
tian anmen showed the world just how shitty the chinese govt was
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #21
31. Kent state was 1970.
When did we leave? The next day? Month? Year?

It was later. 5 years later.

It did *nothing*.

They gave their lives for no change, no difference.

Oh, and China? We gave them a preferred status. So much for protest.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #31
44. it took a while for the war to end
but troops were withrdawn early starting in 1970, my father was one of them, how many soldiers lives did kent state help save??? how many vietnamese??? and it is not the chinese protesters fault that the usa's response was to gived most favoured nation satus
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
29. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that if some protests fail to achieve their stated
goals it means all protest is ineffective.

Even failed protests can cause change -- in public opinion, in politic groupings, & in the psyches of the participants.

The labor movement is a history of failure; but the labor movement was *not* a failure.

The civil rights movement is also a history of failure; same deal.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. What was a success?
What was not a failure?

I can't think of one in the last 50 years.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #32
51. may 1968
charles de gaulle was forced to step down as president of france due to a huge month long strike........

you see we the people can bring the rulers to the knees if we really want to..
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #29
50. exactly
i have struck numerous times and have won perhaps a quarter or a third of the time, well that is still a net gain for having gotten off of my ass and done something
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. you're funny.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. What protests actually *created* a change?
I can't think of a single one. For the most part, they're reflections of change (or outrage over the status quo), not a cause of change.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. really? i can think of dozens off the top of my head.
Edited on Thu Oct-21-10 04:39 AM by Hannah Bell
This revolution appeared to break out spontaneously, without any real leadership or formal planning. Russia had been suffering from a number of economic and social problems, which were compounded by the impact of the First World War.

Bread rioters and industrial strikers were joined on the streets by disaffected elements of the city's garrison. As more and more troops deserted, and with loyal troops trapped at the Front, the city moved into a state of anarchy, prompting a revolution the Tsarist regime did not survive.

The February Revolution was followed in the same year by the October Revolution, bringing Bolshevik rule and a change in Russia's social structure, and paving the way for the USSR.

The two revolutions constituted a change in the composition of the country: the first overthrew the Tsar, and the second instituted a new form of government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_Revolution


The marches shifted public opinion about the Civil Rights movement. The images of Alabama law enforcement beating the nonviolent protesters were shown all over the country and the world by television networks and newspapers. The visuals of such brutality being carried out by the state of Alabama helped shift the image of the segregationist movement from one of a movement trying to preserve the social order of the South to a system of state-endorsed terrorism against non-whites.<15>

The marches also had a powerful effect in Washington. After witnessing TV coverage of "Bloody Sunday," President Lyndon Baines Johnson met with Governor George Wallace in Washington to discuss with him the civil rights situation in his state. He tried to persuade Wallace to stop the state harassment of the protesters. Two nights later, on March 15, 1965, Johnson presented a bill to a joint session of Congress. The bill itself would later pass and become the Voting Rights Act. Johnson's speech in front of Congress was considered to be a watershed moment for the civil rights movement; Johnson even used the movement's most famous slogan "We shall overcome".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1965)#First_march


The victory by FLU 18384 led to widespread unionization in Toledo. In 1935, the auto workers would successfully strike Chevrolet, leading the unionization of that automaker and the first successful steps in organizing workers in automobile manufacturing.<3> Toledo remains one of the most unionized cities in the United States as of 2007.<37>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-Lite_Strike


The 1936–1937 Flint Sit-Down Strike changed the United Automobile Workers (UAW) from a collection of isolated locals on the fringes of the industry into a major union and led to the unionization of the domestic United States automobile industry.

That development forced GM to bargain with the Union. John L. Lewis, President of the United Mine Workers and founder and leader of the CIO, spoke for the UAW in those negotiations, while the UAW sent its President Homer Martin on a speaking tour to keep him out of the way. GM's representatives refused to be in the same room as the UAW's, so Governor Frank Murphy acted as courier and intermediary between the two groups. Governor Murphy sent in the national guard, not to evict the strikers, but rather to protect the strikers from the police and corporate strike-breakers. The parties finally reached agreement on February 11, 1937 on a one page agreement that recognized the UAW as the exclusive bargaining representative for GM's employees who were members of the union for the next six months.

As short as this agreement was, it gave the UAW instant legitimacy.<2> The UAW capitalized on that opportunity, signing up 100,000 GM employees and building the Union's strength through grievance strikes at GM plants throughout the country. Several participants in the strike, including Charles I. Krause, went on to greater prominence within the union. Other notable participants in the sit-down strike were future D-Day hero and Greco-Roman wrestling champion Dean Rockwell, labor leader Walter Reuther and the uncle of filmmaker Michael Moore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_Sit-Down_Strike


The New Orleans general strike was a general strike in the U.S. city of New Orleans, Louisiana, that began on November 8, 1892. Despite appeals to racial hatred, black and white workers remained united. The general strike ended on November 12, with unions gaining most of their original demands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1892_New_Orleans_general_strike


The 1934 West Coast Waterfront Strike (also known as the 1934 West Coast Longshoremen's Strike, as well as a number of variations on these names) lasted eighty-three days, triggered by sailors and a four-day general strike in San Francisco, and led to the unionization of all of the West Coast ports of the United States. The San Francisco General Strike, along with the 1934 Toledo Auto-Lite Strike led by the American Workers Party and the Minneapolis Teamsters Strike of 1934 led by the Communist League of America, were important catalysts for the rise of industrial unionism in the 1930s, much of which was organized through the Congress of Industrial Organizations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_West_Coast_waterfront_strike


After the Boston Bread Riot, acts were passed prohibiting exports of grain in time of shortage, fixing grain and bread prices at more reasonable levels, and establishing a public granary. These measures somewhat alleviated the immediate shortage, however, food shortages and the attendant rioting and looting recurred in Boston throughout the American Revolution and into the early 19th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Bread_Riot


The Belgian general strike of 1893 was ordered (12 April) by the General Board of the Belgian Labour Party after the Belgian Parliament rejected (11 April) the Law Proposal on universal suffrage.

This general strike did force a terrified <1> bourgeoisie into concessions (according to Henri Pirenne: the bourgeoisie in the Parliament). But following the same author the leaders of the Belgian Labour Party were also terrified in front of events which were no more under their control <2>.

In the end, on 18 April, a toned down version of universal suffrage, which gave plural votes based on wealth, education and age (ensuring the bourgeoisie of a safe majority), was approved.<3>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_general_strike_of_1893


The largest general strike that ever stopped the economy of an advanced industrial country – and the first general wildcat strike in history – was May 1968 in France.<8> The prolonged strike involved eleven million workers for two weeks in a row,<8> and its impact was such that it almost caused the collapse of the de Gaulle government.

May 1968 was a political failure for the protesters, but it had an enormous social impact. In France, it is considered to be the watershed moment when a conservative moral ideal (religion, patriotism, respect for authority) shifted towards a more liberal moral ideal (sexual liberation) that today better describes French society, in theory if not in practice. Although this change did not take place solely in this one month, the term mai 68 is used to refer to this general shift in principles, especially when referring to its most idealistic aspects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1968_in_France


Reflecting on the factors that guided the British decision to relinquish the Raj in India, Clement Attlee, the then British prime minister, cited several reasons, the most important of which were: which were the INA activities of Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose, which weakened the Indian Army - the foundation of the British Empire in India- and the RIN Mutiny that made the British realize that the Indian armed forces could no longer be trusted to prop up the Raj.<16>.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Indian_Navy_Mutiny


The sit-in lasted until the workers reached a settlement with the factory over severance, vacation time, and temporary health care benefits; the settlement, which was reached on December 11 and amounted over $1.75 million<8>, was negotiated by the United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America (of whose Local 1110 branch the workers were members), Republic owners and Bank of America over three days.

On December 10, Bank of America and JPMorgan Chase agreed to create a $1.75 million fund to pay the workers their back pay and benefits and to provide two months of health insurance coverage.<3>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_Windows_and_Doors


The victory gained the cocalero and campesino groups international support from anti-globalisation groups.<2> Oscar Olivera and Omar Fernandez have become sought after speakers at venues discussing how to resist resource privatization and venues critical of the World Bank. His actions in the Water Wars raised the profile of Congressman Evo Morales and he became President of Bolivia in 2005. Omar Fernandez joined Morales' socialist party Movimiento al Socialismo and became a Bolivian senator.<14>

The Cochabamba protests of 2000 are chronicled by Olivera in his book Cochabamba! Water Rebellion in Bolivia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Cochabamba_protests


The 1936 Syrian general strike gave fresh momentum to that country's nationalist movement, which had been stalled since the 1933 suspension of parliament. When French Mandate authorities arrested prominent members of the National Bloc and closed its offices in Damascus, demonstrations in that city, Aleppo, Hama, and Homs shattered a lull in anti-French activities on 20 January. Merchants then went on a strike that spread to all major towns, and demonstrations spread throughout the country. Confrontations between protesters and troops resulted in dozens of deaths. The League of National Action, a radical pan-Arab movement, organized protest marches in Damascus, the National Bloc demanded the restoration of the 1930 constitution before the strike would be called off. For five weeks commercial activity was frozen and students boycotted schools. Finally, on 2 March the French agreed to the formation of a Syrian delegation to travel to Paris to negotiate a Franco-Syrian Treaty. When French authorities released the nationalist leaders they had arrested, the Bloc ended the strike.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936_Syrian_general_strike


The country was completely and peacefully paralyzed for 24 hours, prompting the government to negotiate with the unions. Even the TV signal was turn off by the workers. That flexible contract was retired and welfare state was increased.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_general_strike_of_1988


The General strike against Leopold III of Belgium broke out on 26 July 1950, mainly in Wallonia, a few days after Leopold III of Belgium returned to the throne on 22 July 1950 after five years' exile in Switzerland. Eventually, during the night from 31 July to 1 August, the king was forced by the Belgian government of Jean Duvieusart to offer to abdicate in favour of his son.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_strike_against_Leopold_III_of_Belgium


The 1911 Liverpool General Transport Strike involved dockers, railway workers and sailors, as well people from other trades. It paralysed Liverpool commerce for most of the summer of 1911. It also transformed trade unionism on Merseyside. For the first time, general trade unions were able to establish themselves on a permanent footing and become genuine mass organisations of the working class.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1911_Liverpool_general_transport_strike


Fearing that the strike would spread to other cities, the Federal Government of Canada ordered Senator Gideon Decker Robertson to mediate the dispute. After hearing both sides, Robertson settled in favour of the strikers and encouraged City Council to accept the civic employee's proposal. Bolstered by their success, the labour unions would use striking again to gain other labour and union reforms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_General_Strike


Following this pogrom, on February 24, an open air meeting was held on the Noordermarkt to organise a strike to protest against the pogrom as well as the forced labour in Germany. The Communist Party of the Netherlands, made illegal by the Germans, printed and spread a call to strike throughout the city the next morning. The first to strike were the city's tram drivers, followed by other city services as well as companies like De Bijenkorf and schools. Though the Germans immediately took measures to suppress the strike, which had grown spontaneously as other workers followed the example of the tram drivers, it still spread to other areas, including Zaanstad, Kennemerland and Utrecht. The strike did not last long. By February 27, much of it had been suppressed by the German police. Although ultimately unsuccessful, it was still significant in that it was the first direct action against the Nazis' treatment of Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_strike


Solidarity was the first non-communist party-controlled trade union in a Warsaw Pact country. In the 1980s it constituted a broad anti-bureaucratic social movement. The government attempted to destroy the union during the period of martial law in the early 1980s and several years of political repression, but in the end it was forced to start negotiating with the union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_(Polish_trade_union)


The Boston Tea Party was a direct action by colonists in Boston, a town in the British colony of Massachusetts, against the British government. On December 16, 1773, after officials in Boston refused to return three shiploads of taxed tea to Britain, a group of colonists boarded the ships and destroyed the tea by throwing it into Boston Harbor. The incident remains an iconic event of American history, and other political protests often refer to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party


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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. plus strikes led to paid vacation time
in france in the 1930's
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #20
33. Wow. Quite the list.
Thanks for the response, ignore my "what/when" quires above.

I've got some self-education work to do.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. Just thread-bumping at this point.
Most of the above URL's are anti-me (I'm skilled labor, therefore, not union), but it seems like there have been some serious actions, taken to defend working class folks, that have actually been won.

I need to learn more and possibly shove my foot in my mouth at high velocity.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #40
52. cool, it can happen to any of us
i have learned a lot on here when other posters have given me links which exposed me to ideas i was not at all aware of..i imagine it has happened to many of us
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Aristophrenia Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #20
39. You just don't get it - seriously you do not.
In almost every citation you have provided people ended up dying before anything was done - it is a simple fact of life that protesting does nothing - that simple.

In almost every single circumstance you mention things either turn incredibly violent before any real change is made (Boston tea Party) or the protests are a reaction to the violence and massive blood shed which has preceded the activity.

At the very best one can expect a resignation - what changes nothing. Thats the problem with it - someone resigns and the status quo continues.

I find it incredibly insulting that so many people must die through resistance and persecution, and then several jonny come lately's walk down the street together and claim they are the reason for change.

Lets be really, really clear - no matter how large the protests are / were over South Africa, South America, Palestine, Iraq wars nothing ever came of it as changing things did not fit with the Agenda - protest does not work. They are consistently and totally ignored and only ever listened to when it actually benefits the powers that be - yet again - protestors will claim that they were the cause.

Protest is the biggest load of absolute horse shit on this planet - and it is an AFRONT to those people who have sacrificed so much for REAL AND GENUINE CHANGE.

The real historical change brought about throughout history has required massive sacrifice, death, and loss of blood - to think any differently is a total and utter misreading of the profoundly bloody history of this planet.

We are facing the greatest threats to all of humanity from forces of globalization including global corporatism and global warming, over exploitation etc - these are the real threats and if people have been protesting their arses off for decades and NOTHING HAS HAPPENED - the greatest threat to the very survival of our species and not a damn thing - worse.

Protest is at best raising awareness - thats what its purpose is - it does not affect change. The only thing which affects change is denying the powers that be the ability to continue business as normal - through either direct action or violence. That is the only proven position on effecting REAL change - ever.

Putting up a list of demonstrations (half of which refer to revolutions as though it were the same thing) does not prove anything beyond an idealistic distortion of what it really takes to affect change.

Cheers,
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Thank you for saying better what I said poorly.
Namaste.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #39
54. Semantics n/t
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #39
55. we have won a shitload of workers rights here in france
thanks to protest and sabatoge of industrial sites. how do you think we have single payer national health care, 5 weeks holiday 12 other paid holidays, a 35 hour week, safety standards etc.???? sometimes we did bloody revolt, it is true, but most often it is unionists striking which win concessions, think of the sit down strike in michigan in the 30s as a simple 30 something citizen what am i supposed to do openly attack the us army in battle over the iraq war or go protest in the street in the hopes of changing public opinion enough to get an opposition party voted into power????
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #39
57. poll tax riots in the UK 1989
The fall of Thatcher
It is thought that the riot in central London, with the countrywide opposition to the Community Charge (especially vehement in the North of England and Scotland) contributed to the downfall of Margaret Thatcher, who resigned as Prime Minister in November the same year, defending the tax when opinion polls were showing 2% support for it. The next Prime Minister, John Major, announced it would be abolished.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #39
58. what are you talking about? as if there were two things, one of which is "protest"
Edited on Thu Oct-21-10 06:53 AM by Hannah Bell
(all peace & love & nice & safe & useless) & another "violence" (all bloody & noble & where the only real work is done).

bullshit. there is no such neat separation.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #20
43. Good list. There's also the Poll Tax Riots & that thing which happened in Romania in 1989
Edited on Thu Oct-21-10 05:52 AM by Turborama
The UK Poll Tax Riots were a series of mass disturbances, or riots, in British cities during protests against the Community Charge (commonly known as the poll tax), introduced by the Conservative government led by Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. By far the largest occurred in central London on Saturday March 31, 1990, shortly before the poll tax was due to come into force in England and Wales.

The disorder in London arose from a demonstration which began at 11am. The rioting and looting ended at 3am the next morning. This riot is sometimes called the Battle of Trafalgar, particularly by opponents of the poll tax, because much of the rioting took place in Trafalgar Square.

Consequences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_Tax_Riots#Consequences


The Romanian Revolution of 1989 was a week-long series of increasingly violent riots and fighting in late December 1989 that overthrew the government of the totalitarian president Nicolae Ceauşescu. After a trial, Ceauşescu and his wife Elena were executed. Romania was the only Eastern Bloc country to overthrow its government forcefully or to execute its leaders.

More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Revolution_of_1989

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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. Plus the 2000 Fuel Protests in the United Kingdom
The fuel protests in the United Kingdom were a series of campaigns held in the United Kingdom over the cost of petrol and diesel for road vehicle use. There have been three notable campaigns amongst many other protests in the 21st century. The first protest in 2000 was primarily led by lorry drivers and farmers. Blockades of oil facilities caused widespread disruption to the supply of petroleum products with knock on effects for the public and the authorities, as well as causing a reduction in popularity for the incumbent government. The aim of the protests was to secure a reduction in the fuel duty rate on petrol and diesel, which the government refused to enact. After the protest ended, the government did announce a freezing of fuel duties, and promised changes would be made to the way that goods vehicles were taxed which would include the taxing of foreign vehicles operating on British roads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_protests_in_the_United_Kingdom

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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #43
56. this is one reason i am happy to have romania in the EU
they have a tradition similar to us in france....

poll tax riots were excellent too!
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
65. Excellent resource! Thank you! nt
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jotsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-10 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
74. .
:applause: :applause: :applause:

To suggest protesting is not worth engaging in because it will not facilitate immediate change strikes me as more of tantrum to defend apathy.
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. may 1968
protests in france led to charles de gaulle quitting as president

they also led to co ed dorms

2 years ago high school kids went on strike and blocked the decentralization of high school diplomas here in france, the kids won

3 years ago high school and university students protested against the CPE a work contract for young people which gave them less worker protection than the older had, the kids won that one too

"solidarity" movement in poland in the 80's

berlin wall torn down by the german people themselves

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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. "Pointless, empty, symbolism": Which ME theocracies and FE dictatorships are you referring to? n/t
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #14
25. i guess the student protests in iran were pointless
and here i thought that they were sowing the seeds of future social change....
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. did they change anything?
Is Iran different now?
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #35
47. their asshole president had to cheat to win
public opinion supports an open society and the students protests won lots of hearts over thus making iran a more open minded society despite the tyranny coming from their asshole leader
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #14
26. You could make an equal case for "pointless empty symbolism" in political contests.
Being as how a change of leadership so rarely = a change in overall policy.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #26
34. My point.
Thank you.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. your point was that voting doesn't change anything? that it doesn't matter who you vote for, the
policies don't change?

gee, you don't communicate very well.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. Puppets and marches don't change anything.
Drumming circles don't change anything.
Cute slogans don't change anything.
Signs and speeches don't change anything.

I am sorry for my poor communication.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #42
53. I thought you were going off for some "self-education"
Your continuous bumping of the thread is appreciated, though.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #53
63. Hannah's #59 put forth a great counter-point.
It's a tad below this post, pointing out that (as I understand it) the march (etc.) isn't supposed to make the change itself, but it's supposed to affect people in such a way as to bring change.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #42
59. to the extent that puppets, marches, games of monopoly, chanting, drumming,
Edited on Thu Oct-21-10 07:04 AM by Hannah Bell
singing songs, doing headstands, making signs & speeches or anything else builds solidarity, brings sympathy to the movement & new recruits --

YES, THEY CHANGE THINGS. If only minds & emotions.

"Change" isn't the work of a moment. People don't just generally wake up one morning & opt to shut down the city, or act in sympathy with people doing so, or choose not to turn in those planning & organizing to do so.

One reason that the msm stopped giving coverage to marches -- is because covering them makes people aware they're happening & gives them ideas of joining, imitating, thinking about grievances, etc.

i.e. they work.

which is why the glenn beck-fest got tons of coverage & the oct labor rally didn't.

the media is happy to publicize the mass movement it desires to create.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. I believe what we see here is a typical American who sees no point if results aren't seen....
in this news cycle. Funny coming from those who think we're impatient with the pace of change 2 years after we elected a new President.

:rofl:
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. I found it laughable too....
..reminds me of the remark by Christine O'Donnell claiming that evolution was bogus because you couldn't go to the zoo and watch the monkeys evolve.

http://climateprogress.org/2010/09/25/christine-o%E2%80%99donnell-darwin-evolution-why-aren%E2%80%99t-monkeys-still-evolving-into-humans/

Change is a process.
People STANDING UP and demanding CHANGE is part of the process.
You may not see immediate results (like O'Donnell's trip to the zoo), but
every single time people STAND UP....it counts.


Many would prefer the peasants stay in their huts.
And god forbid they assemble in large numbers and demand change.
THAT could get soooo messy.


"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."

--- Paul Wellstone


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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
62. Part of it is geography and transportation.
Virtually all of France's population lives within 450 miles of Paris, and even the poorest Frenchperson can hop a train and be in Paris within hours for a protest.

90% of Britain's population lives within 300 miles of London, and even the poorest U.K. resident can ride public transportation to be there within hours.

Paris and London are the political and economic capitals of their nations. Shut them down, and you shut everything down. You FORCE the people to pay attention to you. The same goes for most European countries. The opposition can organize a single, massive protest and get people from all over the country to join in and paralyze the system, shut down business, and wake people up.

The same thing, in the United States, is exponentially more difficult. Our population is spread across thousands of miles of land, with multiple major economic centers. Travelling from one side of the country to the capital is a process that takes DAYS. Our capital is one of only a handful in the world that is also NOT a major economic hub, so national shutdowns practically REQUIRE large scale protests in multiple cities.

Where protesters in France can call for a single day of protests, pick one location, and expect tens of thousands of protesters, an equivalent protest in the U.S. would require organizing at least TWENTY similar protests across the nation and across four time zones. Each of those protests would need to work exponentially harder to pull in protesters, because instead of pulling in protesters from across the nation, each would only pull protesters from their specific geographic area.
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-10 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #62
72. Washington and New York
Petrograd and Moscow. It just took two cities in the immense tsarist empire. Shut down the political and economic command centers.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. The U.S. has no economic center.
I hate to point this out, but even a New York shutdown on the scale of 9/11 had negligible economic impact out here on the left coast. Our businesses still opened, we still went to work, and our government facilities kept operating like nothing was happening.

The bare minimum needed to shutdown America on a national scale would be: Washington DC, New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Chicago. Unlike those other countries, the U.S. doesn't have "one" economic center, but instead has about a dozen spread across the continent. Many people used to assume that New York was America's economic center, but the 9/11 attacks put that myth to bed once and for all. With the sole exception of the stock exchanges, most of the companies impacted by 9/11 shifted their primary offices to other cities within HOURS, and were up and operating again. Some of them never ceased operating at all.

There's a difference between the nations financial center (which is indisputably New York), and it's economic centers (which are locations where bulk commerce actually occurs).

The point of these kinds of protests isn't just to shut down a stock exchange, but to interrupt commerce period. You can't do that by shutting down New York alone. That's a simple economic reality in this country.
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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-22-10 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
75. I just now saw this thread ( and your post ) and was about to say the same damn thing!
the passion they show in their protests is almost palpable
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
4. I'd love to see some "wanker" signs here.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. We definitely need 'em stateside!
n/t
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. plenty of wankers, that's for sure.
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IScreamSundays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 03:08 AM
Response to Original message
15. Unfortunately, we will never see that here.
Too many hypnotized sheeple.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
17. what's it going to take to get us to do the same?
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 03:49 AM
Response to Original message
19. this is great
protests in england and france on the same day.....
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
60. recommend -- i hope this spreads. nt
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
64. I LOVE the interactive tool
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. That is a great deal. We do need someone to make on for here. nt
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
67. K & R nt
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-21-10 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
70. K&R!!!
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-23-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #70
76. this reminds me of my history class in college back
about 1993--the class was talking about the forming of the European union and how there would publicly be an argument for uniformity so some of the countries would have to compromise some of their social safety net and that labor would have to compromise. We discussed about how as social services diminish, that corporate regulatory standards would also go by the wayside. This was back in 1993, and hey, another economic catastrophic problem that certain con men perpetrated, but we have the solution, only the proles might not like it.
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