Top Shiite Asks Kuwait to Show 'Passion'

[Dover]

Top Shiite Asks Kuwait to Show 'Passion'

Mar 27, 5:09 PM (ET)


KUWAIT CITY (AP) - A top Shiite cleric on Saturday urged Kuwait to let Mel Gibson's controversial film "The Passion of the Christ," be shown in this conservative Muslim state because it "reveals crimes committed by Jews against Christ."...


http://apnews.excite.com/article/20040327/D81IVN7G0.html

[thebigidea]

1. Hurray for religion!

[countmyvote4real]

2. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Jesus H. Fucking Christ! (and whatever the version of that there is for Mohamed.)

Gulf War I was a mistake. Hindsight is everything.

[DeepModem Mom]

3. Wondering if Mel ever considered the impact of his film...

in the Muslim world --

[toopers]

6. To what impact are you referring?

eom

[IndianaGreen]

7. What can you expect from a Holocaust denier?

I think Mel knew full well what the implications were going to be of of his "Jesus Chainsaw Massacre" torture film. It is the age-old blood curse.

[toopers]

8. I don't think Mel denied that the holocaust happened.

His father may have, but not Mel.

[IndianaGreen]

11. When confronted about what Hutton Gibson had said about Holocaust

One of Hutton Gibson's arguments against the existence of a Holocaust was his rather peculiar statement about how hard it would have been to cremate the bodies of all the victims. According to Hutton, it takes "one liter of petro" and "twenty minutes" to cremate one human body, it was not possible for the Nazis to have killed and cremated that many Jews.

Hutton said that the vast majority of European Jews emigrated to America and other places. They were not killed by the Nazis!

When Mel Gibson was confronted about what Hutton Gibson had said about the Holocaust, Mel said that his father had never lied to him about anything. Gibson used the nuanced flip-flop that we have seen so many times during this political campaign. Yes, I believe there was a Holocaust, but my father did not lie when he said that the vast majority of European Jews emigrated to America and other places. They were not killed by the Nazis!

[JI7]

4. what does the shiite cleric think of "christian" bush ?

[Skidmore]

5. I find this an odd request because Islam expressly forbids

the depiction of the human form in any way. Jesus is considered one of the prophets, but not THE Prophet, in Islam. Several years ago, some one hinted that he would make a movie about Mohammed and the Islamic world practically turned upside down at the mere suggestion. This request just doesn't make sense.

[QC]

9. What do they show on TV and in the movies there?

I think the prohibition on images applies in a religious context and not the whole world in general.

[Aussie_Hillbilly]

12. Images

The extreme traditionalist Islamic view prohibits any depiction of a living being. Mullah Omar believes this. The rest of the muslim world (even Osama bin Laden) restrict the prohibition to religious figures like Mohammed, IIRC.

What I find unbelieveable about this story is that in the Quran Jesus wasn't crucified - the romans got the wrong guy and Jesus appeared again to his followers without having died first. So how the hell could "The Passion of the Christ" show crimes by the Jews against Jesus, when good muslims believe the crucifixion didn't happen?

[bleedingheart]

15. the taliban got rid of TV's as I recall so the really strict muslim

sects do adhere to no images...even pictures of their own kids and family..

[TahitiNut]

10. It seems strange that a Muslim cleric would call Jesus the "Christ".

:shrug: I gotta wonder about the reporting (or translation).

[Tinoire]

13. Muslims revere Jesus & call him the Christ. The West's best kept secret

I started looking into this a few years ago when I noticed there was a concerted attempt to vilify Muslims as Christ-haters. Once you remove cultural trappings, the similarities between Christianity and Islam are downright shocking. But shhh, that seems to be meant to be kept a secret. You cannot get brother to kill brother, in the subconsciously implied name of Christianity, if this be too known. Theologically, Judaism, Christianity & Islam are so close to each other.

"'Behold (O Mary!)' The Angel said, 'God has chosen you, and purified you, and chosen you above the women of all nations. O Mary, God gives you good news of a word from Him, whose name shall be the Christ (Masih or Messiah), Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and in the hereafter, and one of those brought near to God.' (Holy Qur'an, 3:45)

===========


Even though as a Muslim I do not celebrate Easter, it is not out of disdain for Christ (peace be upon him). We Muslims absolutely adore Christ, though not literally. One cannot be a Muslim without a firm belief in and love for Jesus Christ. He is considered one of the five mightiest prophets ever sent to humanity, along with Abraham, Noah, Moses and the Muslim prophet Muhammad (peace be unto them all). Muslims believe Jesus to be the Messiah sent to the Children of Israel.

The fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam lies in the belief about Jesus' nature. The majority of Christians believe Jesus to be divine, the Son in the Trinity, who was sent to die for the sins of humanity. Muslims believe Jesus to be a mighty messenger of God and do not accept the divinity of Jesus or any human being. This belief is clearly outlined in the Quran: "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him" (4:171).

Muslims do believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, and the story of Jesus' birth is recounted twice in the Quran. To Muslims, the miraculous virgin birth signals the greatness of Jesus as a prophet; it is not a sign of his divinity. Further distinguishing itself from Christianity, Islam maintains that Jesus was never crucified: "... they killed him not, nor crucified him ... of a surety they killed him not" (4:157). Muslims believe God raised Jesus before the Romans arrested him: "Behold! God said: `O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme' " (3:55). Muslims, however, believe as do Christians that Jesus will return to earth again.

Jesus is mentioned 27 times in the Quran, more than six times as much as Muhammad himself, and he is mentioned even more times in the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad. In fact, salvation for Muslims necessarily includes belief in Jesus, as outlined by this prophetic saying: "If anyone testifies that none has the right to be worshipped but God alone, Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is God's Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, God will admit him into Paradise."

<snip>

Muslims, including this one, love Jesus with all of their hearts, minds and souls. Islam is not anti-Christian by nature. No devout Muslim would ever fathom attacking the person of Jesus as many who claim to be devout Christians have viciously and repeatedly attacked the person of Muhammad. In fact, last year American Muslims strongly criticized as "tasteless and insensitive" a television commercial promoting professional wrestling that showed "Jesus" gambling with the devil in a sports bar. In addition, Muslims were among the many who protested the portrayal of Jesus in the film "The Last Temptation of Christ."

<snip>

www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/8132562.htm

==========================
According to the beliefs of the Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jamaa'ah (i.e. "Orthodox" Sunnis), Jesus, peace be upon him, was raised to heaven alive, and his return to earth will be one of the signs that the Day of Judgment is approaching. These beliefs are not based on whims or guesswork, but are narrated to us through authentic hadeeths (sayings/traditions) of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. However, your question above seems to be based on the mis-translation that was included with your submittal. Certainly it is not God that "gives" Jesus prayer and zakat, but it was God who "enjoined" these acts upon Jesus, peace be upon him. As far as what Jesus is now doing up in Heaven, this is a matter of the Unseen known only to Almighty God, and as such, it can only be known through Divine Revelation.

<snip>

While I am still on this point, I guess that I should say that I there are two other aspects of this that should be looked at: 1) if Muhammad, peace be upon him, was just a false prophet, as many Christian missionaries and non-Muslims allege, why would he have accorded such an honor to Jesus?; and 2) the Muslim view of Jesus, peace be upon him, as a servant and prophet of God, being alive up in Heaven seems to make a lot more sense than the Christian view.

<snip>

Also, for a believer in Pure Monotheism (i.e. a Muslim), what did or did not happen to Jesus, peace be upon him, is of no consequence to their faith - which is in Almighty God alone. Muslims believe what they believe about Jesus (i.e. that he was not crucified and that he was taken up into Heaven) based on Divine Revelation, not human reason. On the other hand, Christians insist on Jesus' death on the cross because they believe that it needed to occur for their "salvation". However, if one understands Pure Monotheism (Arabic: Tawheed) properly, what happened to Jesus, peace be upon him, is of no consequence one way or another. Certainly, Almighty God could have allowed him to be killed (just like other prophets were killed), just as He could have explained what happened to him in greater detail, if He so wished. However, He - due to His Wisdom - chose not to. And He is the best disposer of all affairs . . .

<snip>

God also speaks of "the People of the Book," which is a general term for Jews and Christians, and this indicates that all People of the Book, Jews and Christians, will be believing in Christ before the death of Christ. When he descends, the Jews and Christians will believe that he is the messenger of God -- not rejecting him as do the Jews now, nor claiming that he is God as do the Christians. God states that they will put faith in him when he descends to earth. It is stated that he was raised up to God when He said: "I am gathering you and causing you to ascend to Me" (Qur'an 3:55). He will descend to earth before the Day of Resurrection and then he will die. By this God has informed us that they will believe in him before Christ's death, as He also says elsewhere (Qur'an 43:59-65). In the sound hadith reports from the Prophet he said:

It is impending that the son of Mary will descend among you as a just judge, a righteous imam; he will break the cross, kill the pig, and impose the jizya.

<snup>

Concerning why Muslims believe that he has not died, and that he has been raised alive, it is because the Qur'an (and thus God) says so. However, since the various verses on this issue may have left you somewhat confused, I am including a detailed excerpt from a well known Islamic scholar which discusses many aspects of this in detail. Writing in the 12th Century after Jesus, peace be upon him, Shaikh-ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah said:

"Almighty God did not state that Christ died, nor that he was killed. He said, rather: "O Jesus, I am gathering you and causing you to ascend to Me, and am cleansing you of those who disbelieve" (Qur'an 3:55).

God spoke similarly in other passages (Qur'an 5:117; 4:155-161). God cursed the Jews for various things. Among them was "their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny" (Qur'an 4:156), and their claiming that she was a fornicator. They are also condemned for their claim "We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, God's messenger" (Qur'an 4:157). God said: "They slew him not nor crucified him, hut it appeared so to them" (Qur'an 4:157). God attributes this statement to them and curses them for it. The Christians are not mentioned because the ones who assumed responsibility for crucifying the supposedly crucified person were the Jews. Not a single one of the Christians was a witness with them. Rather the apostles kept at a distance through fear, and not one of them witnessed the crucifixion. The only witnesses were the Jews who informed people that they had crucified Christ. Christians and others who handed on the story that Christ had been crucified only passed on what they had received from these Jews who were the chosen minions of the powers of darkness. Nor were they such a great number that prevented their colluding on a lie. God said: "They did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it seemed so to them."

Then He said: "There will not be any of the People of the Book but will believe in him before his death" (Qur'an 4:159). Among the majority of scholars it is believed that this means "before the death of Christ". It may be said to mean "before the death of the Jew," but this is weak. Similarly it is said to mean "before the death of Muhammad," but this is even weaker. If one placed faith in him before death, this act of faith would benefit him, for the repentance of a person is accepted which is not after the moment of death.

It might be said that what is meant by this is the faith which is after the moment of death and therefore of no use. After his death, everyone believes in he unknown which he had previously rejected, and so there is nothing special to Christ in this, because God said "before his death," and did not say "after his death." This is because there is no difference between someone's placing faith in Christ and Muhammad. The Jew who dies in his Judaism dies a disbeliever in Christ and Muhammad. Moreover God said: "There will not be any of the People of the Book but will believe in him before his death." The verb (la-yu'minanna) can only mean the future, and this is an indication that this faith is subsequent to God's informing mankind of this. Had He meant "before the death of the follower of the Book," He would have said: "There is no Follower of the Book but who believes (yu'min) in him before his death".

God also speaks of "the People of the Book," which is a general term for Jews and Christians, and this indicates that all People of the Book, Jews and Christians, will be believing in Christ before the death of Christ. When he descends, the Jews and Christians will believe that he is the messenger of God -- not rejecting him as do the Jews now, nor claiming that he is God as do the Christians. God states that they will put faith in him when he descends to earth. It is stated that he was raised up to God when He said: "I am gathering you and causing you to ascend to Me" (Qur'an 3:55). He will descend to earth before the Day of Resurrection and then he will die. By this God has informed us that they will believe in him before Christ's death, as He also says elsewhere (Qur'an 43:59-65). In the sound hadith reports from the Prophet he said:

It is impending that the son of Mary will descend among you as a just judge, a righteous imam; he will break the cross, kill the pig, and impose the jizya.

In the Qur'an (4:147) God has made it clear that He has raised up Christ alive and saved him from death, and that they will believe in him before he dies. This is confirmed by God's saying, "and I am purifying you from those who have disbelieved" (Qur'an 3:55); had he died there would have been no difference between him and others.

The word al-tawaffi in Arabic means "completion" and "receiving" and that is of three kinds: a) the completion of sleep; b) the final completion of death; and c) the final completion of soul and body together. It is in this third meaning whereby Christ went out from the state of the people of the earth who have need of food, drink, and clothing, and he departed from them in matters pertaining to natural functions. God brought Christ to this state of completion; he is in the second heaven until the time he descends to earth, and his state is not like the situation of the people of the earth in eating, drinking, dressing, sleep, natural functioning, etc.

For their statement (i.e. the Christians) that by his death is meant the death of his human nature it is necessary that they hold as their basis that by his "completion" is meant the death of his human nature. Whether it is said to refer to his death or to his completion in God, he is nothing other than human nature, for there is nothing other than that which God "brings to Himself" (Qur'an 3:55). This "gathering" is his being raised to God. Their view that what is raised is his divine nature would be contrary to the text of the Qur'an, even if it were a matter of his death. So how can that be the meaning when he is not said to die? They can make what is raised up something other than "received, completed", and yet the Qur'an states that what is raised up is "received".

Similarly when in another verse God says: "They certainly did not kill him, but God raised him up to Himself" (Qur'an 5:157-158). He is rejecting the claim of the Jews that "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, messenger of God". The Jews did not claim to have killed "Divinity", nor did they concede that God had a divine nature in Christ. Moreover God did not mention their claims to have killed him from the Christians, so that one could say that their intent was the killing of the human nature without the divine. The claim, however, was from the Jews, who only attested to the human nature in Christ. The Jews had claimed that they killed him, and so God said: "They certainly did not kill him, but God raised him to Himself". God thereby attested to His raising up that which they claim to have killed, that is, Christ's human nature. It is obvious, therefore, that God denies that human nature had been killed. Rather, He is assuming it to Himself. Christians admit the assumption of the human nature, but they claim that it was crucified, rose from the grave either after a day or three days, and then ascended to heaven and sat, human nature and divine, at "the right hand of the Father".

God said: "They certainly did not kill him". The meaning is that God denies the killing; He is certain about it, There is no doubt about it, in contrast to those who differed because they were in doubt whether or not he was killed. Those who believed it were not certain about it, since they could produce no proof for it. There was a group of Christians saying that he was not crucified, for those who crucified the crucified man were the Jews, and they had confused Christ with someone else, as the Qur'an indicates. Among the People of the Book also it was held that he was confused with another, and those who wanted to kill him did not know who Christ was, until one of the people said to them "I know him". Only then did they know him. The view of those who say the meaning of the passage is "They did not kill him knowingly, but rather uncertainly" is weak.

Almighty God said: "O Jesus, I am gathering you and causing you to ascend to Me, and am cleansing you from those who disbelieve" If that which was raised up was the "Divine Nature", the Lord of the Universe would be saying to Himself and to His word "I am causing you to ascend to Me". Moreover, God said: "But God raised him up to Himself", but according to them (i.e. the Christians) Christ is God. It is obvious that His raising Himself to Himself is impossible. If they say that he is the Word, they nevertheless hold that he is the Creator God. They do not make him of the same status as the Torah and the Qur'an, and other speech of God like these about which God spoke "To Him there arises the good word" (Qur'an 35:10). According to them Christ is God the Lord of the universe, the Creator, the Sustainer; so to say that the One-and-only Lord of the universe was raised up to the One-and-only Lord of the universe is ridiculous.

Almighty God the Most High said: "I was a witness of them while I dwelled among them, and when You took me You were the Watcher over them". This indicates that after his being gathered up to God, Christ was not a watcher over them, but only God without Christ. This statement is also an indication of the Reckoning; if this and statements like it are true, it is known that after his being taken up Christ is not a watcher over his followers. God is the watcher who observes them, counts up their deeds, and requites them accordingly. Christ is not a watcher; he does not observe their actions; neither does he reckon them up, nor does he reward them."

(All of the above paragraphs were quoted from A Muslim Theologian's Response to Christianity, edited and translated by Thomas F. Michel, Caravan Books, Delmar, New York, 1984, pages 305-308. This is an English translation of Ibn Taymiyyah's al-Jawab as-Saheeh.)

http://www.thetruereligion.org/ascensionjesus.htm

===

Question: If Jesus (peace be upon him) is alive, shall he descend at the end of the time and judge among the people while following the religion of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)? What is the evidence for that? And how can one refute those people who claim that he will not descend nor judge among the people?

Answer: Yes, the Prophet of Allah Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) will descend at the end of time and judge among the people with justice, following the Law of our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). He will break the crosses and kill the swine. HE shall put an end to the payment of the jizya. He will only accept Islam from the people. The People of the Book, the Jews and Christians, will all believe in him before his death, after he descends at the end of time. Allah has stated, "There is none of the People of the book but must believe in him (as only a Messenger of Allah) before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus) will be a witness against them."

<snip>

It is confirmed in numerous authentic hadith, that have come through numerous chains and have reached the level of mutawatir , that Allah raised Jesus to the heavens. They also state that he will descend at the end of time as a just ruler and will kill the False Messiah .

http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=77


================
I think I might re-read the book I purchased 3 years ago that addressed this very question:



"The Muslim Jesus" Tarif Khalidi

This work presents in English translation the largest collection ever assembled of the sayings and stories of Jesus in Arabic Islamic literature. In doing so, it traces a tradition of love and reverence for Jesus that has characterized Islamic thought for more than a thousand years. An invaluable resource for the history of religions, the collection documents how one culture, that of Islam, assimilated the towering religious figure of another, that of Christianity. As such, it is a work of great significance for the understanding of both, and of profound implications for modern-day intersectarian relations and ecumenical dialogue.

Tarif Khalidi's introduction and commentaries place the sayings and stories in their historical context, showing how and why this "gospel" arose and the function it served within Muslim devotion. The Jesus that emerges here is a compelling figure of deep and life-giving spirituality. The sayings and stories, some 300 in number and arranged in chronological order, show us how the image of this Jesus evolved throughout a millennium of Islamic history.

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/KHAMUS.html
===

Customer Reviews
Avg. Customer Review: 5 stars
Write an online review and share your thoughts with other shoppers!

Could this heal the wound?, January 21, 2002
Reviewer: ([email protected]) from India

Tarif Khalidi has written a book that won't be given the acclaim it deserves; it won't be read by the people who should read it and it won't (barring a miracle) have the impact on the World that it should. His book turns the light on in the no man's land between Islam and Christianity. It shows how the two religions are closely connected and how our long gone ancestors treated the other with respect, dignity and even friendship. It's not for me to promote the content of this book, it's just there and it should be read by as many people as possible. It really could have a colossal impact on the world if this, the truth, were widely known...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674004779/026-6686110-8655624

====

Jesus the prophet

William Dalrymple finds a deep kinship between Christianity and Islam in The Muslim Jesus: Sayings and Stories in Islamic Literature by Tarif Khalidi

Saturday December 22, 2001
The Guardian

The Muslim Jesus: Sayings and Stories in Islamic Literature
Tarif Khalidi
224pp, Harvard, £15.95

Fatehpur Sikri is the ruined Mughal capital built by the emperor Akbar just outside Agra at the end of the 16th century. At its centre lies the Buland Darwaza or Gate of Victory, one of the great masterpieces of Indian architecture and the most imposing monument in the city. A towering archway topped with lines of minars and chattri cupolas, it exudes the sort of refined arrogance that defines Muslim architecture at its most self-confident and imperial. It is about the last place on earth you would expect to find an overtly Christian inscription. But emblazoned all the way around the arch is a panel of kufic script which reads: "Jesus, Son of Mary (on whom be peace) said: The World is a Bridge, pass over it, but build no houses upon it. He who hopes for a day, may hope for eternity; but the World endures but an hour. Spend it in prayer, for the rest is unseen."

<snip>

Whatever their origin, these sayings of Jesus circulated around the Muslim world from Spain to China, and many are still familiar to educated Muslims today. They fill out and augment the profoundly reverential picture of Christ painted in the Koran, in which Jesus is called the Messiah, the Messenger, the Prophet, Word and Spirit of God, though - in common with many currents of heterodox Christian thought in the early Christian period - his outright divinity is questioned. Nevertheless, the Koran calls Christians the "nearest in love" to Muslims, whom it instructs in Surah 29 to "dispute not with the People of the Book save in the most courteous manner", and to tell them: "We believe in what has been sent down to us and what has been sent down to you; our God and your God is one."

<snip>


When the early Byzantines were first confronted by the Prophet's armies in the seventh century, they assumed that Islam was merely a variant form of Christianity. In many ways, they were not far wrong: Islam accepts much of the Old and New Testaments, obeys the Mosaic laws about circumcision and ablutions, and venerates both Jesus and the ancient Jewish prophets. The early life of Muhammad relates how, when Muhammad entered Mecca in triumph and ordered the destruction of all idols and images, he came upon a picture of the Virgin and Child inside the Kaíba. Reverently covering the icon with his cloak, he ordered all other images to be destroyed, but the image of the Madonna to be looked on as sacrosanct.

<snip>

It was a tradition that was carried on by his successors. When the first caliph, Abu Bakr, stood on the borders of Syria, he gave very specific instructions to his soldiers. "In the desert," he said, "you will find monks who have secluded themselves in cells; let them alone, for they have secluded themselves for the sake of God." As late as AD649 a Nestorian bishop wrote: "These Arabs fight not against our Christian religion; nay, rather they defend our faith, they revere our priests and saints, and they make gifts to our churches and monasteries."

<snip>

Sadly, the recent demonisation of Islam in Christendom, and deep and growing resentment felt in the Islamic world against the Christian west, has created an atmosphere where few on either side are still aware of, or even wish to be aware of, this deep kinship between Christianity and Islam. As Khalidi says in his thoughtful introduction: "Amid the current tensions between Christianity and Islam, it is salutary to remind ourselves of an age and a tradition when Christianity and Islam were more open to one another, more aware of and reliant on each other's witness." The Muslim Jesus, reminding us as it does of Islam's "intense devotion, reverence and love" for Christ, goes a long way also to remind us of the profound links between these two Middle Eastern faiths. Now of all times, it should be welcomed as a book of the greatest importance.

http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/history/0,6121,623656,00.html

====


Whew. Did not mean to bore you! But I know how thorough you are!!

Peace :)

[On the Road]

14. Thanks for the Background, Tinoire,

I just ordered the Khalidi book on Amazon. On a trip to Istanbul a few years ago, I bought Jesus in the Koran, which was difficult for me to read. A lot of Muslim literature is so abtract that I just can't connect with it.

I'm very interested in Muslim traditions about Jesus because they reflect Messianic Judaism, and the "Jewish" church originally led by Jesus' brother. It survived longer outside the control of the Roman empire, but remains today mostly in bits and pieces.

[bleedingheart]

16. Thanks for posting this!

you can never stop learning

:-)

[Roaming]

17. "Christ" simly means "anointed one" and Muslims believe Jesus

was anointed. The big divergence is that they do not believe Jesus died on the cross and do not believe he was resurrected. They claim he just went directly to heaven, and the real biggie, that he was not who he claimed to be, i.e., God.