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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:00 AM
Original message
Wikileaks video showing cover-up of murder of civilians and journalists through US forces in Iraq
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 11:13 AM by sabra
Source: collateralmurder - Wikileaks

Overview

WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff.

Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded.

The military did not reveal how the Reuters staff were killed, and stated that they did not know how the children were injured.

After demands by Reuters, the incident was investigated and the U.S. military concluded that the actions of the soldiers were in accordance with the law of armed conflict and its own "Rules of Engagement".

Read more: http://collateralmurder.com/en/index.html



http://twitter.com/wikileaks

# LEAK: Cover-up of murder of civilians and journalists through US forces in Iraq. Video online at: http://collateralmurder.com /

# Video showing murder of Iraqi civilians and two Reuters journalists will be released at 16:00 UTC latest.
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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. to greatest
:puke:

ugh

END THE WARS NOW
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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
228. IN A RELATED STORY fox news reports that all talking heads are safe, fair-skinned, and off-balanced
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #228
267. For now
if we ever fight back against the BFEE, that would likely change in a hurry.
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live love laugh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
237. I hope those soldiers rot in hell. "Bushmaster"??? WOW nt
Edited on Tue Apr-06-10 08:23 AM by live love laugh
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MellonCollie Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #237
243. I'm guessing that the "Bushmaster" ID was for the Bradley that was in the area...
The gun on the top of the Bradley is an 'M242 Bushmaster'.
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
2. When will the politicians stop killing? n/t
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
57. When enough of us find out what they are doing in our name, to act.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
130. When they stop getting rich from it and getting off from it. nt
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cbdo2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
216. The politicians will never stop killing. That's what they do.
And it will never change, no matter who is in charge.

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
280. When we put an end to patriarchy and its violence . . . . and that includes
organized patriarchal religion which is its underpinning -- !!!

Patriarchy and viooence are mirror images of one another -- !!

And look at the rise in violence and right wing reining in of liberty since 9/11 --

macho taking over in the most brutal and cruel ways.

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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. K&R. Again, as in the GD link, I recommend
...watching the long unedited video first, then the short one.

Youtube: http://tinyurl.com/ybnyspu (full) and http://tinyurl.com/cmshort (short)

Important stuff.
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spinbaby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I can't bear to watch
I'll rec the thread, but can't watch.
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HillbillyBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
58. I tried but its telling me to log out of myh google?!

Funny how I predicted in 98 that if (*) ran he would be placed in office and we would be at war in Iraq or Iran before 2 yrs were up..i was only off on the timing. I am sick and ashamed of all who fell for the lies and of our country stealing others resources..this is not a great country it is seeming more and more that the islamists are right, we have become the great satan.
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jimlup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #58
91. you were spot on except your calculation did not take into account 9/11
I think that delayed the Bush planning by a bit.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #91
114. 9/11 was part and parcel of the Bush planning for war: America's Reichstag Fire
It was America's Reichstag.

Set by Nazis. blamed on the left.

9/11 planned and implemented by the BFEE and blamed on "Turrists" who hate us for our freedoms
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #114
276. That's what I think as well.
Although it's a surprisingly unpopular view around here.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #114
281. +1000% -- MIHOP
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
62. I can't watch it either.
:cry:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. I watched the long version. It's in black and white and there are subtitles.
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 02:44 PM by EFerrari
It looks like the world's most horrible video game.

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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #67
85. .
I can't even imagine - and to think there were children... :cry:
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #62
76. Me neither. I can't bear it.
But I thank everybody for sharing what they saw. I just can't bring myself to watch it.
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axollot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
174. That was exactly how I watched it. So freakin sad. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
4. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
5. That guy ducking behind building... was that an RPG? I am not defending the itchy trigger fingers
but why did that guy crouch down behind the building? That seemed to be a pivotal moment. Was he part of the Reuters' entourage?

And how far was the chopper from the action? It seems pretty close. That said, why wasn't the attack chopper suspicious of the group's nonchalance in its presence? Many questions. Great footage. Wikileaks are some brave folks. What a sad event.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. I don't know, I've just watched it once so far and can't stomach another go-throguh yet. However:
The premise of the WikiLeaks video, that there was a cover-up stands (IMO) after watching the video.

I am honestly a little shaken after seeing that, I've never seen 20mm cannonfire on humans that close-up.

One thing that stands out to me, a lot, is that the the assertion by the pilot that the van had arrived to "pick up bodies and weapons" appears to be entirely without merit (in regards to weapons).

Again, the real point here is the coverup which is pointed out several times by juxtaposing the quotes from the military with the actual guncamera footage.

Horrible stuff...

PB
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. It's a camera with a long lens, but it's not clear unless you look closely

Just before he is eclipsed by the building, you can see it is short with a flat back


Also, to appreciate the distance from the helicopter, compare the start of gunfire sound to the arrival of the rounds. It is quite a delay.
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snort Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
22. Given the muzzle velocity of a 20mm
at 3400 ft. sec. and the time period between the first rounds of fire and the dust kicking up it looks like the helicopter could have been more than a mile away. No wonder they didn't seem concerned about it on the ground.
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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Thanks to you and JBHill for explanations.
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ArcticFox Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
99. 30 mm chain gun, but you've got the idea.
I believe the number below and to the right of the targeting reticle (varying from about 800 to 840) is the range in meters. That's just over a half mile.

The "RPG" was clearly a camera with a long lens.

That video is nothing short of disgusting. How many more of these incidents have there been?

From Wikipedia:

M230 Chain Gun
Place of origin United States
Service history
In service 1975present
Used by United States of America, and other countries
Wars Gulf War-present
Production history
Designed 1975
Produced 1975-present
Specifications
Weight 55.9 kg (120 lb)
Length 1,638 mm (64.5 in)
Width 254 mm (10.0 in)
Height 292 mm (11.5 in)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cartridge M788 Target Practice (TP)
M789 High Explosive Dual Purpose (HEDP)
M799 High Explosive Incendiary (HEI)
Caliber 30x113mm
Action Chain gun
Rate of fire 625 rpm
Muzzle velocity 805 m/s (2,641 ft/s)
Effective range 1,500 m (1,640 yd)
Maximum range 4,500 m (4,920 yd)
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. it looked to me like the guy was out in front and he simply looked down the alley...
...and then stopped to wait. As the copter comes around the building again, everyone is gathering at the corner where that man stopped. I don't think he "ducked behind the building" at all-- he just stopped at the corner, perhaps after looking down the adjacent alley and then withdrawing to the corner.
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skyounkin Donating Member (722 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
95. To my understanding there were reports of gunfire
in the area and the camera men were ducking down cause they did not want to get shot at.

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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #95
189. Is "to my understanding" newspeak for "I just pulled this out of my arse"?
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 08:50 PM by liberation
If there were reports of gunfire, and actual engagement had occurred, that Apache would be doing all sorts of evasive maneuvers. Most definitively the chopper would not have sat there circling around like a lame duck for every pissed insurgent to shot an RPG at.

No one of these "military experts oh so concerned to give the benefit of the doubt" in this thread are pointing that simple fact. eh? The Apache is flying a simple holding pattern and taking targets out at will. Heck the pilot didn't even bother to engage and waited for the pattern to get them out of the blackout from the wall. On a real hot zone, you simply do not do that... unless you are shooting from a real AC gunship and can't modify trajectory once guns are engaged.

PS. Did you even watch the video? The guy was just walking around with his camera on his side. The only time he ducked was after the barrage of 30mm love kisses. And it was not as much ducking as he was running for dear life.

I am sure that after a few tours of duty in that hellhole, lots of people are going to have itchy trigger fingers. And I am sure this is not the first, nor the worst incident of this nature. This insanity is victimizing an innocent civilian population who did nothing to us, and the thousands of troops who are put in an unmanageable situation.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #189
196. Yes. Also known as rationalization.
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Speciesamused Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. War is the pornography of violence.
Most reporters know that the invasion and the occupation have been a catastrophe. They know the Iraqis do not want us. They know about the cooked intelligence, spoon-fed to a compliant press by the Office of Special Plans and Lewis Libby's White House Iraq Group. They know about Curveball, the forged documents out of Niger, the outed CIA operatives, and the bogus British intelligence dossiers that were taken from old magazine articles. But the press, or at least most of it, has lost the passion, the outrage, and the sense of mission that once drove reporters to defy authority and tell the truth.
We are assured by the war-makers that these stories have no bearing on the glorious violent enterprise the nation is about to inaugurate. And, lapping up the myth of war and its sense of empowerment, we prefer not to look. We have become tyrants to others weaker than ourselves. And we believe, falsely, that because we have the capacity to wage war we have the right to wage war.


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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
234. You see clearly, friend.
:thumbsup:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
251. Yes . . . unbelievable that killing someone is now "disengaging" them . . . so video game like!!
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no limit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
8. Jesus fucking christ. I just watched this and I am speechless
They had absolutely no provacation, and almost no evidance of any insurgent activity. They fired killing all those people. Then when an unarmed van shows up to help there was absolutely no threat yet they opened up fire and laughed as they did it. Absolutely sickening.
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MinneapolisMatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Same reaction here.
I'm stunned.
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German Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
34. Sorry, i'm not stunned
This is America
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Amaya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #34
126. exactly
this is what America does best!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #34
252. We have to stop this MIC....which also now controls our media --
Edited on Tue Apr-06-10 11:08 AM by defendandprotect
this is the most brutal and insane army ever raised!!

And, we've been being told that for some time now -- and easy to guess!!

Our police -- "public servants" -- are also being gradually militarized!!

This is our future, as well, as right wing violence takes hold!!

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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Same here. Speechless. Begging to fire on the van, BTW, when the two children are in...
...the recticle of the Apache (?) is...

I'm just a bit sick at the moment as I'm sure you and anyone else who watches this video is, as well.

PB
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angrycarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. I saw no weapons associated with the van.
No good reason to fire. One quote that got me was "I guess it was their fault for bringing children to a battle" No it was our fault for bringing our battle to their children.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Neither did I. The pilots LIED when they said they say people from the...
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 01:00 PM by Poll_Blind
...van picking up bodies AND weapons. This is absolutely false.

OnEdit: "Reporters working for WikiLeaks determined that the driver of the van was a good Samaritan on his way to take his small children to a tutoring session. He was killed and his two children were badly injured."

PB
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heliarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. + 1
This is exactly correct. The pilots lied about picking up weapons. At no time was there any indication that the van driver was interested in anything but picking up the injured man on the ground.

This document is very hard to watch, but everyone should see it. The delay mentioned by others here between the obvious recoil of the guns and the impact as viewed on the monitor should serve as an indicator of how little real connection there is between these snickering butchers and their mistaken targets. The gunner was neither in danger, nor were the troops he was brought in to support. This is shameless bloodlust plain and simple.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #16
235. And *that* is how new terrorists are created. Violence begets violence.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
282. And these soldiers will be coming home . . ..
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
160. I saw no weapons at all, period. None of the men had anything that looked like
an AK-47 which has a distinctive profile.

Nor did the men seem to be threatening the helicopter in any way.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #160
182. One did look to be carrying something long and black
He wasn't holding it like a weapon at all though, and in context it may have been a tripod with the legs folded together.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #182
256. Bottom line is they killed innocent people -- in three attacks . . .
Edited on Tue Apr-06-10 11:22 AM by defendandprotect
and the video you are watching is a much lesser quality than the video that the

actual vision the pilots would have had of the scene.

This speaks again to the immense effort to make everything American violent --

including our domestic police enforcement which seems to be operating in the same

way -- shoot every -- 100X!! No questions asked afterwards -- and whitewashing!

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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #182
271. Yeah, I saw that too. But I also saw no forestock. Also it was too long and thin to be a rifle.
Not only that, but these men did not act like they were planning any kind of attack.

They were bunched up, milling around.

Trained military should know that . . .
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pasto76 Donating Member (835 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
39. I am bothered by events in thie video
I do not know of any ROE that would allow the pilots to open fire on that van. It may have been an unmarked ambulance. The pilots suggest(and seem to want to believe) that it is trying to steal evidence. I was never briefed that "evidence" was protected property, allowing for use of force. This happened a few years after I was there though, so maybe there was a change or something.

As a soldier over there, when I was over there - even with the greatly elevated sense of aggression that I had - I do not think I would have fired, or ordered any of my troops to fire, on what we see in this video when the first shots are fired. I just dont see anything to justify it. Soldiers follow rules, and the american soldier is behind the 8 ball when it comes to ROE (they allow for little 'preemptive actions'), but they are the rules. I question the training and principles of these pilots. Cavalier comments notwithstanding.

SGT PASTO
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #39
63. Thanks for your expert assessment of the video.
I believe I read in another report that the commander, whose name I do not remember right now, was the same guy who helped cover up the Pat Tillman death.

I don't know if they were acting on his orders, or if he was responsible for the investigation the report, that is now contradicted by this video.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #39
66. It sounds like they have been in too long, SGT.
I can't even find it in myself to be angry with them but feel more a profound sadness.
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shedevil69taz Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #39
134. I am here right now
and no "evidence" is in no way considered a protected property that we can use deadly force to protect. I can't watch the video here in my office because of the firewalls, but once I do I should be able to acurately tell you exactly who was at fault.

Oh and incase we needed any more proof that the american news media is a steaming pile of shit here we have a comparison:

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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #134
152. CNN has it now, they only show the video up until the point of the RPG/photo lens
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 06:47 PM by jakeXT
which makes the military look pretty good

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/04/05/video-shows-journa...
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shedevil69taz Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #152
161. oh ok
so they just needed the extra time to edit

The guys I work with when they go to chow always sit in the secion of the dfac with the tv's turned to american news networks, and I don't sit with them anymore cause if I do I can't eat.
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pasto76 Donating Member (835 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #134
165. maybe pilots do not require Positive ID?
thanks for the input. Stay safe. too many questions in this video. I always thought killing someone should have an airtight story.

sgt p
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Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #134
227. shedevil,
this post here summarizes exactly what is wrong with this country. OMG.
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kas125 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #39
214. Exactly. And if they truly believed that the wounded man
was an "insurgent" wouldn't their rules of engagement call for them to capture and interrogate him instead of summarily executing him? Their excuses are lame, all of them. It was murder of innocent people doing nothing more than walking down the street, nothing more. And it makes me sick.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #39
283. Any chance they are on drugs of some kind . . . speed?
Edited on Tue Apr-06-10 07:44 PM by defendandprotect
And how long can they continue to separate themselves from their own action?

How long can they believe in the video game concept?

Deaths . . . are now "disengagements"???

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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
69. I feel ill. n/t
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ArcticFox Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
101. Absolutely disgusting
I am very sad to know that my tax dollars are funding terrorism around the world.
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
105. I had my mouth open the whole time as I was watching it
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 03:51 PM by Clintonista2
Psychopaths
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #105
148. so did i
and i protested so loudly my son came in from the other room to find out why. i'm finding it difficult to express my feelings right now. not good. if only everybody would watch this. the killers are so cold i feel the chill inside my heart. laughing as they kill.
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #148
151. I've been sending this video around to all of my friends today
even my non political friends are sending me messages back asking for more info, they just can't believe that this is happening. I really wish the M$M would do its freaking job for once and cover it.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #148
193. Same here
Son came in and asked what the hell I was watching.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
117. I guess people in Iraq, unlike those at Obama rallies, are not permitted to carry guns. Peace. nt
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Amaya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
124. why are you surprised?
this is what soldiers do ... they kill.

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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
170. You should have been watching footage during the bush years..
in Iraq and Lebanon. I will never get those pictures out of my mind..
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
12. fucking pig bastards....
:cry:
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
13. Marking to watch later
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
14. Columbia Journalism Review: WikiLeaks Releases Video Showing Death of Reuters Staff
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
17. ..and this was just once incident. How many more ...?
Blackwater going into the market place and murdering poeple.. while American pick up the tab..
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
19. I feel sick.
What makes me sick is the covering-up of truth and the reaction of the shooters in the aftermath, in particular.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
20. K&R
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
21. Wikileak Tweet: Reuters 2008 statement on the failure of the US military to respond to FOIA request
Reuters 2008 statement on the failure of the US military to respond to FOIA request for massacre video http://bit.ly/bVhBCL
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we can do it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
23. KR Passed On To All I Know
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
26. K&R -- back later --
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. yes
x
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
201. This might have to wait til tomorrow . . .
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xocet Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
27. Prosecute Bush et al....
I guess they (the aircrews) just decided to bag the idea that it is important to confirm that their targets are legitimate. This is as clear an indication of why one should not go to war as can be found; innocent people are frequently killed for no reason.

First and foremost, Bush et al need to be prosecuted for starting an illegal war and for putting the US military in this untenable position; this is not even to mention the victims of this illegal war.
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howmad1 Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
172. From what I see:
This is a clear case of the murder of eight or more innocent people. If that be the case should we not arrest, indict and imprison the bush crime family? A firing squad would be far too kind to the cocksuckers. Just think if this happened on American soil, the perps would be busted and probably given the death penalty. Rules on engagement, my ass.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
29. Republicon Pharisee Family Values
are what has dragged America's moral integrity down to the cesspool.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #29
68. Worse than Pharisee,
more like Nazi. Anyone that would seriously try to stop this war machine will die as surely as those Iraqis.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #29
70. It's the foreign policy of both parties...
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
30. omg, I feel sick watching that
Good job, wikileaks and anonymous source. K&R
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
31. I have been watching many WWII films/docs lately
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 01:27 PM by Duer 157099
Band of Brothers, the recent WWII in HD (History channel?), The Pacific, etc.

And one thing that I always notice is that when wounded are being removed, the engagement stops.

Now, I don't know if these are sanitized versions that managed to survive the past half century (although much is also based on personal testimony of the soldiers who fought), but as for the video footage, you just don't see firing when the medics arrive.

Is it because that van didn't have a big red cross on it? Is that the whole difference?

Maybe it is.

Gut wrenching.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
52. It depends.
On the Western Front, medics were respected for the most part. On the Eastern Front and the Pacific, they were fair game.

It's also different in a guerrilla conflict where no one wears uniforms. Anybody and any vehicle could be a enemy.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #52
191. As to Guerrilla Warfare,
During the Vietnam War, there are stories, never confirmed, that Helicopters would be given the standard call signal to come in and evacuate the wounded. The only problem it was the Viet Cong who sent out the signal, so that any Viet Cong that fell into US hands during the Fire Fight would also be evacuated for medical treatment. As I said, only stories, never confirmed but it shows that even in Guerrilla warfare once the actual fighting was over both sides did try to get their own wounded treated AND would permit the other side to treat their wounded.

Comment on the Japanese during WWI, they had a good reputation for taking prisoners and treating them quite well. This was reported by the Russians after the 1905 Russo-Japanese War AND the Germans after the Japanese took over the German held coastal cities of China during WWI. This attitude changed after 1920 as Japan turned more militaristic and came under the control of its extreme Right wing. The first sign of this was the assassination of Various center and left wing politicians in the late 1920s and early 1930s and saw its peak with the Japanese "fanatics" of WWII.

As to the Nazis and Russians on the Eastern Front, the Nazis wanted to kill everyone who had been a member of the Communist party, and since that meant anyone who was in any command position that meant every officer (Including any medical officer). Thus it appears the Germans started the no hold barred attitude and the Russians just reciprocated (Not that Stalin was above whole scale massacre, but NOT in a Combat situation as shown by his capture of the Polish army units in 1939, they seemed to have been cared for and treated with respect, he later separated the officers from the enlisted ranks and had the officer shot, but that was long after the Polish officers had been separated from the enlisted ranks, I mention this to show IN COMBAT the Russians treated their enemies within international standards, Stalin did NOT follow international Standards once they had been prisoners for a while, but that is a different story then we are discussing now).
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dem mba Donating Member (732 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #31
190. take it for what its worth
but I know of various reports of Palestinian and Iraqi suicide bombings that have involved ambulances. I am sure various DUers will have issues with any source I link, but if you google "suicide bombing ambulance" you can take your pick.

That said, I was as surprised as everyone to see our troops firing on people who were clearly just moving bodies. I guess we would want to keep the bodies at the scene of the attack to identify if they were indeed insurgents, but a warning shot would have sufficed. I am still a little shaken after seeing that part, especially.

Fog of war is one thing, but that just seemed like murder.
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tomm2thumbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
32. seems to me this will be used for recruitment on par with Abu Ghraib photos /nt

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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. So why do we keep doing it? To support a crazed war industry and oil companies. BS.
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
35. I think Wikileaks did the right thing by prepping for the release
Although, our overlords have become so brazen about their inhumanity to man, that they might even be a little bit proud that this is being seen.

Most likely, we won't hear anything from them, and they'll just wait until the novelty dies off and the news cycle refreshes.

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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
36. Bloodthirsty bastards.
And they're return home to be your neighbors.

I constantly amazed how the US military prides itself on honor and integrity...then lies and lies.
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Eyerish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
37. K&R
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
38. Stop supporting murder and counterproductive wars!
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
41. K & R - even though I haven't even tried to watch the video yet.
Just reading the comments on this thread from people who have seen it tells me all I need to know, although I may watch it later when I think I can stand it.
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secondwind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
42. I am horrified beyond words. They were almost gleeful and happy about doing


what they were doing! They were having a blast! I just cannot believe this....it is too horrifying.


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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
43. "In the Spirit of Crazy horse"! NOT EXACTLY.
"Good shoot'n." America's Finest, out for a day of business as usual.

These guys were totally detached from their own humanity (if any) and the humanity of the people they were shooting down from the comfort of a helicopter.

Disgusting, so disgusting that words are inadequate.

And the beat goes on!

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Paper Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
44. I read the comments, I have not looked at the film.
I cannot.

The pre-release news was necessary. I'm sure if the press and the military had the opportunity, the black curtain of censorship would have been dropped over this.

How much more do we need to endure. This is the 4th major war in my lifetime. Each one is worse than the one before. We are the most aggressive country. I am ashamed.

Bring the troops home now. Help rebuild not destroy. Maybe we will atone for these atrocities.

It is time we minded our own business and stopped making other citizens of the world suffer because we feel we have a cause or the right.

VietNam was horrible, this is even worse.

Yes, I am angry.

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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
45. Glenn Greenwald on MSNBC at 4pm EST to talk about the horrible new WikiLeaks video
From Twitter: On MSNBC at 4pm EST to talk about the horrible new WikiLeaks video - http://is.gd/bfRo3 - easy to see why Pentagon views them as its enemy
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. Thanks for that info. In case you haven't seen this, you might be
interested: Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 08:29 EDT

The war on WikiLeaks and why it matters
By Glenn Greenwald

A newly leaked CIA report prepared earlier this month (.pdf) analyzes how the U.S. Government can best manipulate public opinion in Germany and France -- in order to ensure that those countries continue to fight in Afghanistan. The Report celebrates the fact that the governments of those two nations continue to fight the war in defiance of overwhelming public opinion which opposes it -- so much for all the recent veneration of "consent of the governed" -- and it notes that this is possible due to lack of interest among their citizenry: "Public Apathy Enables Leaders to Ignore Voters," proclaims the title of one section.

But the Report also cites the "fall of the Dutch Government over its troop commitment to Afghanistan" and worries that -- particularly if the "bloody summer in Afghanistan" that many predict takes place -- what happened to the Dutch will spread as a result of the "fragility of European support" for the war. As the truly creepy Report title puts it, the CIA's concern is: "Why Counting on Apathy May Not Be Enough":

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/...
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
46. I suppose we should still support the troops?...
Pardon me while I :puke:

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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
47. Youtube comments are typically horrendous.
Sometimes I wish I could just stay in bed.
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shedevil69taz Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #47
136. Have you ever
seen thoughtfull and/or intelligent comments on ANY youtube video? I never have.
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #136
207. My comments are always thoughful and intelligent!
And sometimes I don't even use STFU or ROFLMAOSHIHLH. :eyes:


Welcome to DU by the way.


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shedevil69taz Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #207
209. Thanks
I had lurked for a couple months and even tried to create an account several times (still don't know what I did to get those locked without even posting ANYTHING) and liked the conversations and the layout here.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
48. A microcosm of the entire "war" in Iraq.
An elective engagement based on bogus evidence.

Deeply disturb... a senseles sact of brutality that makes me wonder if our technological superiority has come at a price of losing our humanity. This video will reverb negatively for a long time in the ME.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. +1
PB
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disillusioned73 Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #48
82. Amen..
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #48
89. "I'm a war president!"
What a fucking imbecile.
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SnakeEyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
50. Hate that my first reaction was...
Looks like CoD:WM2 :-(
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oldironside Donating Member (835 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
51. A former neo-conservative...
... posted this analysis on youtube. Gotta say I agree with his views.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJLLEewj1Sk
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #51
71. I entirely agree as well. Thanks for that link. n/t
PB
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #51
74. Well, this is the one topic which we agree with the Libertarians.
And IMO, both groups are equally passionate about it.

Thanks for the link. I feel his anger.
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disillusioned73 Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #51
77. Thanks for posting....
that dude sounds about as enraged as I got when I watched this... I really hope the "media" is unable to ignore this story
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ArcticFox Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #51
107. Agree
"Cowards firing from afar" is how I have characterized United States' military actions for quite some time.
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #107
122. 'Fraid so. And firing for dishonorable reasons
in the first place.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #51
144. Never mind
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 06:25 PM by proud2BlibKansan
I figured it out.
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KeepItReal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #51
179. Best read of the situation I've seen. Thanks for the post.
<eom>
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
54. K&R n/t
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
55. The link doesn't appear to be working anylonger. nt
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. The site's got a lot of traffic
Keep trying.
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florida08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
56. Dear God
Their attitudes are not what I expected. They seemed to be more hyped about shooting than who they are shooting at. When they find out they've injured kids what's their reaction? It's their fault for bringing their kids into a battle??! What the hell? It's their home for crying out loud not a video game. I feel dishonored. Not what I expected from pilots who are not being shot at.
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German Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #56
213. That's what you are prepared for
Playing video-games with real people:

“Unmanned aircraft systems (UAS) and the effects they provide have emerged as one of the most "in demand" capabilities the USAF provides the Joint Force. The attributes of persistence, endurance, efficiency, and connectivity are proven force multipliers across the spectrum of global Joint military operations.”

USAF UAS FLIGHT PLAN 2009-2047



Don’t get me wrong, I am not in favor of “Manned Aircraft Systems” raining down bombs on civilians, but the idea of Murder by Joystick with the “Unmanned Aircraft Systems” (UAS,) is especially sickening to me.
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florida08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #213
248. I know..
They want to take the emotion out of the them but try as they might they're still human beings. This kind of desensitising only serves to destroy the mental state when they return home. You can't hide from your conscience. The high rate of PTSD proves that.
I absolutely agree with your assessment.
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
59. George W. Bush and Dick Cheney still walk free. American war criminals, America's shame.
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Hutzpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
60. This is the most heinous 17mins video
I have sat through and watched in my entire life.

The brutality is tantamount and insidious at worst and surely there would be those
who will defend this kind of treacherous behavior, whats worst is the laughing that follows
after the killing, it is down right sick and show complete lack of disrespect for the Iraqis
culture as a whole.

My question is, if they can feel this much superior in carrying out this atrocities with bliss,
how much closer are they in carrying out this type of atrocities on American minorities?

One cannot help but have this type of thought process.
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JohnnyHardhat Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
64. Heartbreaking
Its heartbreaking and shameful but this is what happens in war. The innocent suffer the most. The American people have not been getting enough information about the horrors of our wars so we haven't fully considered what is being done in our name. End the wars now. Both Afghanistan and Iraq will devolve into civil wars the minute we leave whether its now or ten years from now. Why stay and perpetrate more death when the outcome will be the same?
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oldironside Donating Member (835 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #64
84. I agree...
... this is war. You take a bunch of testosterone fuelled young guys, tell them their ideology is superior, arm them to the teeth, send them to a place that will scare the shite out of them and either sit back and enjoy the profits or, if you haven't lost your humanity, post here.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
65. This is horrendous.
Were are the right-to-lifers when we need them most. Those children were clearly visible in the front of the truck. And it was only a war zone after our military started shooting at men carrying cameras. It is clear from the video that our soldiers focused a long time on the men with cameras. Even if you give them the benefit of the doubt and believe they somehow thought the cameras were guns, the incident in which they shot the man writhing on the sidewalk was just criminal -- just criminal. How could any human being shoot a man who is unarmed and writhing on the ground? The soldiers doing the shooting were in utterly no danger.

This was not war. This was a shooting gallery -- a computer game. Sheer butchery.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #65
78. If fetuses were fighting this war, then the right to lifers would be there
but these are post birth creatures and therefore are not of interest to the "right to life"ers
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
72. I feel sick
Dear God. Bad enough that they think this is a video game, but the laughter about aim and driving over bodies?

This is WAY worse than my mind's eye anticipated after the pre-release announcement was made.
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dballance Donating Member (460 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
73. Not a single MSM page has this story
I just checked ABC, CBS, and MSNBC pages. Not a one of them are reporting this. Tiger Woods returning to golf is more important than reporting about the US murdering journalists and civilians. What a sad, sad, pathetic country we are now.
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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. MSNBC is reporting on this right now - I expect we'll hear some more tonight and tomorrow
though we'll see how much real coverage it will gain?
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #73
79. MSNBC will be covering it at 4 and Rachel has it on her blog.
Unfortunately, tonight is Basketball night. The American Idolization of America continues...
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Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #79
230. You got it.
So, so sad.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #73
80. That's because it goes against the interest of the corporations which own them...
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
81. So, how do we get this to grow legs?
We already knew such atrocities were happening. How do we get middle America to see this. This could be the Mai Lai of this war. And it needs to be.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. This will be on every nightly news program in every major country in the world tonight.
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 03:14 PM by Poll_Blind
No kidding. That's a good start.

I think within a week or two there will be raised some very legitimate questions raised about firing on the bystanders (the van with the two kids inside) and the allegations by the pilots that the Good Samaritan who stopped to pick them up was also picking up "weapons" when clearly he's just helping the injured reporter.

That's legs- even before the main premise of a cover-up is examined. When one looks at the Pentagon's "side of the story" versus the actual guncamera footage, some seriously big red flags are raised. Not to mention the ghoulish demeanor of the Apache pilots/gunners which is a black mark on our armed services, today.

This story has a fairly large number of elements which are not easily addressed and which will not go away quickly. Given this the coverage will be over a longer period of time than other stories and with that time comes a sort of delayed exposure effect, news-wise, which will reach most corners of this country.

Not to mention the news magazine coverage, some of which will likely have images from the video on their cover. That will eventually be quite a bit of exposure.

PB
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #83
88. And Then You'll Wake Up.
The US MSN will need to be dragged kicking and screaming into covering this. Tiger Woods and The iPad are waaay too important.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #88
98. Really? You really think this won't make that coverage? In the last HOUR this story has made the:
The Guardian (UK)
BBC
Russia Today
Al Jazeera (Middle East)
SAMAA TV (Pakistan)
Ethopian Review
RTL Nieuws (Holland)
TV2 (Denmark)
Dagens Nringsliv (Norway)
Le Monde (France)

That's just articles covering this in the last hour and for some of these news agencies, like Le Monde, it's front page, above the fold.

I think you underestimate how much this story interests the rest of the world. Not to mention that WikiLeaks was whipping up speculation about the story for the last week or so.

If you're concerned this is going to become a non-story and just go "poof" I think you'll be disappointed with that forecast.

PB
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #98
102. This Is One Of Those Situations Where I Would Relish...
being proved, flat-out, wrong. The proof is in the pudding though. None of the organizations you cite are in the US. And no, a five minute segment, at 4PM, on MSNBC doesn't count either.

FSH
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #98
123. Where's the US coverage? This will go down the memory hole. n/t
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #98
139. Front page in the major Spanish press, including the video at their web sites.
eg: La Vanguardia (Barcelona) http://www.lavanguardia.es / ; El Pas (Madrid) http://www.elpais.com/
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #98
195. What's That I Heard?
"poof"...

FSH
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #98
200. Plus, Al Jazeera English is Broadcast all over the world
As is Russia Today and the BBC. Needless to say, the Guardian website is global too and is one of the most widely read newspaper websites in the world.

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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #98
247. Poll_Blind
Poll_Blind

And - No one of them are in the US... NO ONE...

This is murder, pure and simple.. This have nothing with waging a war, this is murder on a big scale, nothing more.. I dosen't have word to say what I feel when I was looking at this..

And the worst was maybe that they tried to dig this down a deep hole who never was to be known.... They killed a lot of pure sivilians, and then tried to dig it so it never was to be known....

But as it was known home.. You can lie, but the truth would ALLWAYS came out sooner or later.. And it have coming out in this case.How many others are there out there...

Diclotican
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #98
285. Still Waiting...
FSH
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #83
269. Since the US isn't a major country any more, Big Media will black it out
Once again nothing will happen
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taught_me_patience Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
86. This video is sick and almost makes me want to cry
"It's their fault for bringing their kids to a battle..." "...that's right."

:puke:
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lob1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
87. At the beginning, are they identifying the cameraman's cameras
as weapons?
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jimlup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #87
94. Yeah, that was my question too
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #87
96. That appears to be what happened

When they see the long tube of the camera with the telephoto lens, they think it is an RPG.

Also, at around 2:08 to 2:14, there is a man who is holding a long object of some kind, but it looks much longer than a rifle.
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #96
110. Camera tripod? n/t
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #110
133. Interesting idea

although it looks like he swings it on a strap, and the legs would be all the way out. But it doesn't look like an ak47 or anything with an ammo clip.

Looking again just as he is eclipsed by the corner, it looks like he's lining up the camera to take a picture directly at the helicopter. I would imagine that having someone point something at you, even if misidentified gets adrenalin going.
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #96
169. The cameras are incorrectly IDed as weapons.
At 3:10, the guy on the far side of the street seems to have a real RPG.
At 4:07, at the corner of the street, this is probably one of the cameramen since the black tube looks too wide to be an RPG.

Of course, we have the hindsight of knowing these two were reporters before seeing the video.
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
90. Sickening
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time_has_come Donating Member (872 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #90
232. Absolutely awful. How can you/anyone see that they're cameras? n/t
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #232
264. That is the point. You can't see them.
The cameras were slung over their shoulders just like a rifle would be. All the views were from the front while the cameras were hidden behind their arms. Had the cameras been in their hands, they would have been readily identifiable.
Large cameras and rifles get carried and handled very similarly, unfortunately for the reporters.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
92. BBC: WikiLeaks posts 'killing' video
WikiLeaks has posted a video on its website which it claims shows the killing of civilians by the US military in Baghdad in 2007.

The website's organisers say they were given the footage, which they say comes from cameras on US Apache helicopters. They say they decrypted it, but would not reveal who gave it to them.

The WikiLeaks site campaigns for freedom of information and posts leaked documents online. There has been no Pentagon response to the video so far.

High-quality video

The video, released on Monday, is of high quality and appears to be authentic, the BBC's Adam Brookes in Washington says.

More: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8603938.stm

Posted in GD, too: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
93. Wikileaks' Editor Julian Assange Discusses The "Collateral Murder" Video With Al Jazeera English
Julian Assange, the editor of WikiLeaks.org, told Al Jazeera that the footage, released on Sunday, corroborates witness testimony:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1O7jL_hKXQ

Also posted in the political videos forum: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


AJ English's article on this: Website 'shows video of US attack'

And their blog: WikiLeaks vs the Pentagon
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Lars77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
97. Seems like they really, really want to see those weapons.
I don't understand the mentality of these guys. The first person is apparently carrying something around his shoulder, so he's a fucking prick. Then they spot the other person carrying, and they REPORT 5-6 people carrying AK47s.

This reminds me of the psychology that can make people exaggerate things when they speak to others. Clearly everyone in the armed forces has an incentive to do well, get noticed and possibly rank up. Could this be what's going on here?

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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #97
100. This is, no doubt, why we blow up entire wedding entourages in Afghanistan.
Do you remember the story where they launched a hellfire and killed somewhere around a dozen people in Afghanistan simply because one of them was "unusually tall" and therefore seemed Bin Laden-like?

Also, the same effect you mention is heavily at work when they claim the Good Samaritan who comes to the reporter's aid (the one with his children in the van) is picking up weapons.

They're not just looking for excuses, they're making up excuses to use those weapons.

PB
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Lars77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #100
108. This is interesting..
The psychology of war is interesting to me, what makes people do what they do etc.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the way we train military personnell today. Listen to the gunner, he's begging to get to shoot. He's even begging the wounded person to "pick up a weapon". He wants to kill this individual badly. Something tells me that a soldier in WW2 would not do the same. I guess part of it can be explained with a sense of remoteness, since they are watching this on a screen in an airconditioned helicopter far away, but i don't see how that can be all of it.

I also found it quite disturbing that they laughed when the Bradley ran over one of the bodies. I realise humour can be quite bizarre in professions like that (Hearse drivers joking about the dead etc) but this was almost sadistic.


And by the way, since when it is acceptable to open fire at unarmed people evacuating wounded, from a legal standpoint? Are the people in the van simply to be viewed as military personnel because they are helping an injured person?
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #108
111. Wikileaks' Editor described it really well to The Guardian in their article about this
Exactly the point you bring up about the kind of mindset they have which makes them behave this way...

"Why would anyone be so relaxed with two Apaches if someone was carrying an RPG and that person was an enemy of the United States?" he said. "The behaviour of the pilots is like a computer game. When Saeed is crawling, clearly unable to do anything, their response is: come on buddy, we want to kill you, just pick up a weapon ... It appears to be a desire to get a higher score, or a higher number of kills."


Full article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/05/wikileaks-u...

Posted in GD, too: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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RoccoR5955 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
103. Quite revealing
It seems like some of those guys were playing it out like some sort of video game.
I think I'll send Wikileaks some money
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
104. I sincerely hope Reuters and the other news agency personnel who were deliberately targeted
will get justice. They were important witnesses to what was really going on - civilian deaths, etc. - and were silenced. What I hope will be revealed is that these decisions were not made 'on the ground' by these soldiers, but was accepted policy that came from the top.

Basically Iraq was a killing field, as is Afghanistan.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
106. We killed journalists
so we could suppress our suppression and stealing from Iraq

We are not the good guys anymore

iraq = Vietnam
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #106
118. And a lot of them. 30? 50? nt
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kas125 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #118
141. I don't remember which article I was reading, but earlier
today the figure I saw was "at least 179"
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #141
242. Holy shit. nt
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
109. BBC are carrying it - news link
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 04:07 PM by dipsydoodle
The video, released on Monday, is of high quality and appears to be authentic, the BBC's Adam Brookes in Washington says.

It is accompanied by a recording of the pilots' radio transmissions and those of US troops on the ground.

The video shows a street in Baghdad and a group of about eight people, whom the helicopter pilots deem to be insurgents.

It then shows the individuals on the street being shot dead with the Apache's cannon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8603938.stm

Have your mainstream media now provided news on this ?
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green917 Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
112. Torches & Pitchforks!
I wonder who they are

The men who really run this land

And I wonder why they run it

With such a thoughtless hand.

Tell me what are their names,

And on what street do they live?

I'd like to ride right over

This afternoon and give

Them a piece of my mind

About peace for mankind

Peace is not

An awful lot

To ask.


David Crosby
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
113. Compare with WaPo version in 2007
During the fighting, an Apache helicopter fired bursts of 30mm rounds toward several people who had been directing machine-gun fire and rocket-propelled grenades at U.S. soldiers. The helicopter also fired on a silver Toyota minivan in the area as several people approached the vehicle, soldiers said

...

It was unclear whether the journalists had been killed by U.S. fire or by shooting from the Iraqis targeted by the Apache.

...

The Apache crew fired because militants "were endangering the stability of Iraq" and because they had positive identification that the militants "had weapons and were using them against coalition and Iraqi security forces," said Maj. Brent Cummings, the battalion's executive officer. "No innocent civilians were killed on our part deliberately. We took great pains to prevent that. I know that two children were hurt, and we did everything we could to help them. I don't know how the children were hurt."

....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
115. I watched the MSNBC segment on this
And the point was made repeatedly that "nobody is trying to lay blame on the soldiers involved" but I want to know why that is? These guys, the shooters, were a safe enough distance from the "battle" so that they can never ever claim that they reacted badly out of a sense of panic or something. Not even close. This reveals some very disturbing things about how some of the troops are psychologically oriented. The fellow who is begging for the wounded man to pick up a gun to give him a reason to shoot, very soon thereafter goes ahead and shoots anyway, even though no gun was picked up! So, he verbally demonstrates that he at least is aware of the ROE, but once a superior gives him the go ahead, he just shoots anyway.

Yes, I firmly believe that particular soldier should be held to account for what he did that day! Abso-fuckin-lutely.
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MellonCollie Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #115
121. You can't blame the people involved...

...because they are brave heroes fighting for your freedom. Apparently.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
116. If you "Support the troops" you can not be anti-war
Plan and simple. The ENTIRE DoD is complicit in this, from the guy who turns the wrench on those choppers to the supply Sgt. in Guam.
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pjt7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #116
120. We all have to stop blindly
"supporting the troops"

Face it, we have no idea what they are really doing.

& Iraq was a Soverign Country, for the love of GOD.

I want to thank Wilkileaks for being brave enough to show this.
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shedevil69taz Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #116
140. Sorry no
if I had any knowledge of what went on and knew the ROE had been violated I have the moral and LEGAL duty to report it to my superiors. Infact if I did have first hand knowledge of something like this happening I would have not only done that but also contacted my congressional representatives and a media outlet (probably as an anonymous source as I do value my career) So DO NOT try to say that I am somehow complicit to what amounts to murder apparently. (I say aparantly because I don't know for sure as I have not seen the video for myself yet but will as soon as I get to an internet connection that allows for video)

Your statement would kind of being like me saying to you: "You are just as responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing as McViegh because you worked as a laborer in the plant that made the fertilizer that he used!"
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #140
142. You are quite wrong in your comparison.
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shedevil69taz Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #142
145. Maybe I was
but you are equally as wrong to try and proclaim that everyone associated with the DoD is responsible for all the horrible things that have been done here.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #145
149. If I work in a factory that makes bombs.
I am complicit in the death of anybody who dies as a result of my actions. Don't you get that? Don't you any sort of moral compass?
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shedevil69taz Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #149
157. Alcohol contributes directly to the death
of hundreds of people every year, and ruins many more lives than that by a factor of thousands, but I don't blame the people that work in the breweries. I guess you do?

It all comes down to personal responsibilty. We (the US Military) have Rules of Engagement laid out to make sure we minimize civilian casualties. Was the ROE followed in the incident in this video? I can't say for certain yet as I can't view it behind this firewall, but if it was violated the perpetrators of the violating could be tried for a number of things up to and including murder. To me there shouldn't have been a reason to cover it up if those involved didn't do anything to violate the ROE.

To suggest that I (being a member of the armed forces) am responsible for the actions of someone hundreds of miles away that I had no knowlege of or control over because I happen to be in the same organization as them is personally offensive to me.

I do sincerely hope the exposure by wikileaks though forces everyone involved in the incident and the coverup to answer for their actions.
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Iowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #140
221. Nah... very poor analogy.
I think what the poster you're responding to was saying is basically this: The military is a ruthless death machine that has very little to do with legitimate defense concerns anymore, and those who volunteer to participate are knowingly choosing to be cogs in such a machine. That's all. And it's pretty tough to argue with that.
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pasto76 Donating Member (835 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:26 AM
Original message
thats the dumbest thing Ive ever heard
the flight mechanics had nothing to do with the INDIVIDUAL PILOTS pulling the trigger. Have you ever pulled the trigger? I have. It was my choice, my decision. No one else is involved at that moment.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
119. Need to watch this later.
n/t
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
125. MSNBC and Faux have this on their front page finally. No word from CNN though.
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KDLarsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
127. I know I'm going to be flamed to hell and back for this..
But, monday morning quarterbacks coming through.

Rules of engagement were followed, the two Apaches arrived at the scene after Hotel platoon had encountered small arms fire from the direction of the court yard. The Apaches reported the presence of 8 persons with what appeared to be weapons, two AK's and an RPG. It's easy for us to sit here with 20/20 vision and point out that it's obviously a camera with lens, but such hindsight is not really offered those in the situation at the time. In their case it was a matter of life or death.

They reported this to the Platoon commander, Hotel 6, who then gave authorisation for the Apaches to open fire.

Afterwards, the good samaritan appeared in his van. This mirrored previously used tactics by the insurgents, where they'd pick up their wounded (or kill those beyond help) and transport them away to prevent them from being captured and interrogated. And tragically, the Apache pilots proceeded to respond as they would have if it had been insurgents.

The Army made a huge mistake in covering it up. Cover-ups never go down well with the public (as the responses so far show).

And war is Hell. Iraq in the summer of 2007 was no different.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #127
129. excuses excuses n/t
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #127
137. Once they mis-ID'd the camera as a weapon...

...there is no other way this thing would have unfolded but the way it did.

I agree, being upfront about having incorrectly assessed the situation would certainly have been the correct course.
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KeepItReal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #137
183. At that point, it appears the cameramen were doomed. The van shoudn't have had the same fate.
I don't know how the rules of engagement allowed the van to be a target, even if they were clearing the scene of "insurgents".

Damn.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #127
146. They were CAMERAS not WEAPONS
Shit. I am not even a fucking soldier and I can tell those are cameras.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #146
159. Yeah, no shit

You knew that before you saw the video, too.

There's a lot of wrong in this situation and the aftermath, but nobody decided to call a camera a weapon just for shits and giggles.
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joycean Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #127
153. If this was another country
for example, The Netherlands, who fired on US civilians from a helicopter because they 'appeared to be armed'(despite the fact they they were neither firing nor preparing to take defensive positions in order to fire in the presence of attack helicopters) you would not be so quick to say, "Well, war is hell." as you lay bleeding on the sidewalk clutching your camera.

I don't know if this will do anything for your thinking, but it's worth a shot: I watched this video with my brother who just last night returned for two weeks from Afghanistan, where he is a Ranger in the 82nd Airborne, and he was pissed at the actions of these pilots. He said, and I quote "fucking rednecks."
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #127
177. "I know I'm going to be flamed to hell and back for this.." .... and yet...
I take they no longer teach in the military academies in the US about Nuremberg.
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KeepItReal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #127
180. Reuters (the camermen's employer) says there were others with weapons
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 08:19 PM by KeepItReal
"That was the morning of Thursday, 12th July 2007, in the fifth year of the U.S. and British led campaign to pacify Iraq and restore democracy after the overthrow and execution of the dictator Saddam Hussein. Noor-Eldeen and Chmagh drove to the al-Amin al-Thaniyah area of eastern Baghdad to check on reports of a dawn air strike on a building by the American military.

There had been reports of clashes between U.S. forces and insurgents in the general vicinity but there was no fighting on the streets in which Noor-Eldeen and Chmagh were moving about.

There were other people in the street, including a number of men. It is believed that two or three of these men may have been carrying weapons, although it was clear from witness statements that they were not firing them nor were they held in a firing-ready position. "

http://www.thebaron.info/namirnooreldeenandsaeedchmagh....

FYI: If you focus on the men (not highlighted by Wikileaks) trailing the cameramen and their guides you may be able to make out that they were holding weapons. The Apache crew focuses on them after misidentifying the two cameramen with slung cameras.



edited for typo
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Progressive Cancer Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #180
223. So what?
Geneva conventions, additional protocol I:

Art 50. Definition of civilians and civilian population
3. The presence within the civilian population of individuals who do not come within the definition of civilians does not deprive the population of its civilian character.
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #127
194. They killed a father by attacking an innocent civilian truck.
It's murder.
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Progressive Cancer Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #127
222. RoE vs Geneva Conventions
Edited on Tue Apr-06-10 03:41 AM by Progressive Cancer
Rules of Engagement were followed? You are kidding! Read the Geneva conventions:

Additional Protocol I:

Art 48. Basic rule
In order to ensure respect for and protection of the civilian population and civilian objects, the Parties to the conflict shall at all times distinguish between the civilian population and combatants and between civilian objects and military objectives and accordingly shall direct their operations only against military objectives.

"what appeared to be weapons" is not enough:

Art 50. Definition of civilians and civilian population

1. A civilian is any person who does not belong to one of the categories of persons referred to in Article 4 (A) (1), (2), (3) and (6) of the Third Convention and in Article 43 of this Protocol. In case of doubt whether a person is a civilian, that person shall be considered to be a civilian.

The "fog of war" excuse is no justification for breaching the Geneva Conventions, has never been and will never be.
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Dystopian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
128. KandR
Can't watch video....'seen enough to know I've seen too much.'

peace~
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
131. And they claim release of Abu Ghraib photos will make people hate us. It's the KILLING, stupid.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
132. Yeah....so, where's it appearing on the effing corporate media here in the US?
Waiting......

I thought so. Goddamn them all!
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
135. I cannot watch this. Bookmarking for some time I might, but this horrifies me
What can we do to stop this? Harass our reps? They don't listen to anything we say.
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change_notfinetuning Donating Member (750 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #135
176. Anti-war protests at Obama appearances. Make him feel as uncomfortable as
he should feel. As uncomfortable as you felt trying to watch this. After all, Obama is the Commander-in-Chief, and smart enough to know that these wars aren't doing anything to make us safer. They only look like he's doing something to make us safer. There is no way to justify collateral damage just for the sake of appearance.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #176
253. Right . . . we've been very kind to Democrats re anti-war demonstrations/4 years now!!
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
138. Were there any weapons?
I only watched it once, but I couldn't see any weapons at all, and particularly not any RPG.

But, let's say for the sake of argument that there were weapons and it was in a war zone, and lets say that the helicopter pilots were under stress and maybe made a mistake: (I don't believe that, but let's give every possibly benefit of the doubt):

What possible justification is there for shooting the van that was loading the bodies?
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #138
171. Possibly one RPG at 3:10 or so.
in the group of men at the far/top side of the street.
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SnakeEyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #138
185. Assuming all that were true..
the justification is that the those with the van were also the enemy. Situations like this occur often. They drive in to retrieve any wounded, and also kill those that are beyond help, and drive off to prevent them from being captured and interrogated.
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AzNick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
143. I blame the chain of command from the very top down
Blaming video games is a bit easy. Guys, especially young ones, are thrill seekers. War and killing people is a thrills for many, sad but true.

It's up to their elders and commanding officers to drill into their brains that killing civilians at random is a no-no.
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cachukis Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
147. Without question one of the most gripping, mindnumbing
experiences of my life. Who the fuck are we?
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #147
166. Who or what.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #147
260. We are the Death Star. n/t
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joycean Donating Member (69 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
150. The Pentagon has confirmed that this video is real.
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 06:46 PM by joycean
From http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/04/05/world/interna... >NYT

"A U.S. defence (sic) official confirmed that the video and audio were authentic."

I guess the rest is interpretation, eh? When I watched the video, I saw soldiers firing on a crowd of civilians without confirmation of firearms or RPGs. I am not a soldier, and I have never served. Would I have seen the situation differently if I were the pilot? I'd like to think so. After all, none of the civilians were taking defensive positions, despite obviously being aware of the presence of the helicopter. They were not behaving like combatants in anyway that I could see, and the 'weapon' was not a positive ID. This is laziness, and a complete disregard for human life.

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pjt7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #150
154. Iraq is & was a Soverign Nation
Who the F are we?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
155. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
change_notfinetuning Donating Member (750 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
156. Shoot first. Cover up later. Sadly, this is being done in our name, and if
Obama can offer any evidence that these wars are being carried out in our national interest, for our national security, I'd like to hear it. It is time (it has been time since he was inaugurated), for Obama to do the right thing and end these wars, and not to do the strong on national defense bullshit, and kill more people, for the purposes of bipartisanship and improving his chance of reelection. A war monger is a war monger, and I don't care which party it is. With all of our unmet needs here at home, we are squandering our wealth and capacity for greatness and, at the same time, making the world and our country less safe.

Ending the wars should have been part of the health care deform bill, not abortions. Anyone who thinks any number of aborted embryos are more important than a single, living, breathing human being, or even as important, has his head so far up his ass, it's no wonder he can't see the truth, just a lotta shit. One person can stop this madness, President Obama. But I know better than to expect change.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #156
158. You have it half right.
the congress can cut off funding. So yep, this stops when men in suits not uniforms make the call.
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change_notfinetuning Donating Member (750 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #158
173. You're right. I stand corrected. It's just that I expect even less from Congress.
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Ruby the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #156
167. It will be interesting to see if the administration acknowledges this.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #167
186. I am sure they will be "deeply disappointed" or something like that
Extra points if they release a presser with a photo of the president, addressing this clustefuck, right next to his Nobel Peace Price.
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choie Donating Member (899 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #156
250. Guys, do you ever get so angry that you cry?
That's how I feel right now. I can't express it - I feel as if I want to explode. How do humans justify killing like this? How? I notice that none of the usual Obama apologists haven't posted - hmm, got nothing to say now that Obama is in charge of the same war crime apparatus?
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change_notfinetuning Donating Member (750 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #250
255. Exactly. There is no defense, and if it were Bush, everyone would be screaming,
including Democrats in Congress. But you're right. Where are all those apologists? Do they finally get it when it comes to a "stupid war", per Obama's definition from the campaign? Well, that's a start.

My suggestion is that we have anti-war protests at every single place that Obama makes an appearance. The buck stops somewhere and he is the president, whether he wants to act like one or not, and do the right thing. Terrorists are not going to be flushed out by "war". It's time to be a man and pull the troops out, and use more effective means. Maybe he's thinking about George Carlin's joke about Vietnam - "pulling out isn't manly."
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
162. Evil cowards.
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
163. That makes me sick. How can people do that-- murder so casually?
People are nothing more than targets to "engage." Imagine these soldiers returning from war and trying to assimilate back in to society. No wonder there is so much mental illness and depression among those returning from the battlefield. Our men and women in uniform must divorce themselves from their humanity -- and live with the horror of what their country demanded of them.

And maybe the sickest, saddest thing of all - this fucking war didn't have to happen.

:mad: :cry:
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
164. Thanks for posting that...horrible as it was to watch. n/t
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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
168. that wasn't rules of engagement
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 07:38 PM by MichaelHarris
that was murder by people wanting to kill something.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #168
181. Exactly.
Note how often the guy lies and exaggerates on the audio, getting clearance for the hits.
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mangeydog democrat Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
175. Sadly enough
Sadly enough I can't say at this point that I am too outraged or sickened. Mainly because I (and anybody with a logical, rational brain) has known this has been going on in our name for a long time, and have had our reactive emotions dulled by the continual outrage. I would bet my life that this is probably the norm rather than the exception. We need to have the counter argument at the ready for when people start with their typical response of "They are fighting for your freedom"(bullshit) or "They are making our country safer" (even deeper bullshit). Try and use the counter logic of "If foreigners(they like that word) came into your country and shot your wife or kids what would you do? Wouldn't you be looking to get revenge on the son-of-a-bitch that blew off little Ashley's legs and killed little Gage?" Or would you just shrug your shoulders and go right on with life as normal? Might throw in a "like a pansy" at the end of the last statement, it tends to hit them right where they live. How does violently taking a person's reason for living away from them and leaving them with nothing but the driving need for revenge make our country safer? They are taking people who really didn't give a shit about us one way or another and making them hate us. All of us. A lot of people will hate us as a whole because of the whole platitude spewing bullshit or because of our seeming indifference to the things being done "in our name".


And just to clarify, I used Gage as a generic substitute name for said freeper-asshole's little boy. A lot of pinhead good ol' boys have named their sons that around where I reside. My thinking on the psychology of it is that it sounds manly and tough and they tend to saddle their kids with their own deep and denied inadequacies. Got to mix in a little bit of their own language and view of life in the arguments so that they don't just put up a defensive wall and ignore everything you say because you are a hated and feared "intellectual". Just saying.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #175
268. Welcome to DU, Mangey!
Sorry about your neighbors....here in Michigan
we have a mixed bag, so it's easier to talk truth.

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ScottLand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
178. THIS is what our tax dollars are going to?
So that these men can murder innocent people? !!!!
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #178
203. The men in washington who ordered and paid for this? Get that right folks
this is not the third world, the civilians in washington made that happen. The US military does not order its self to combat, that is two branches of government enabling that.

Unless there was a man in cuffs executed, that video shows us foreign policy as voted for by your representatives. Dont blame the men carrying the job out.
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polly7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
184. CTV coverage in Canada.
"The Pentagon would not confirm the video's authenticity on the record, despite repeated requests from The Associated Press.

"At this time, we are working to verify the source of the video, its veracity, and when or where it was recorded," a statement from U.S. military headquarters in Iraq said late Monday.

The military also provided redacted copies of portions of its inquiry into the July 2007 incident, again without confirming that the incident described in those documents is the same one posted by Wikileaks.

According to a July 19 summary of the investigation, U.S. troops acted appropriately. Reuters employees were likely "intermixed among the insurgents" and difficult to distinguish because of their equipment, the document states.

"It is worth noting the fact that insurgent groups often video and photograph friendly activity and insurgent attacks against friendly forces for use in training videos and for use as propaganda to exploit or highlight their capabilities," the document concludes.

The incident has been reported before, but the video had not been released."

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/201...
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #184
197. The Pentagon says "U.S. troops acted appropriately".
That implies that this must indeed be an everyday occurrence.

Trained to kill innocent people. Murder approved and defended by the Pentagon.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #197
254. Pentagon now is in service of military corporations . . . that's all that counts . . .
Right wing and capitalism are killing us all -- !!

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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
187. Kick for truth.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
188. Sickening. n/t
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
192. Clear evidence of war crimes.
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 09:07 PM by chrisa
Heartless and sick.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #192
205. Nope, just bad foreign policy
there is nothing in that film that shows a war crime. The problem originates with the civilians who ordered the war and paid for it, not the men tasked with carrying out lawful orders.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
198. It is a stain of shame
It is bogus to think that we went to Iraq to liberate it. After all, some of our leaders have promoted some of the most ruthless bloody dictators, like Pinochet, like Saddam. Iraq could attack us-they have missiles that can reach us--that was the first lie. Iraq has WMD's, they are in violation (almost all of Iraq's WMD's were either destroyed or expired)-that's was the second lie. We must liberate Iraq from it's evil dictator-well we supported him, I guess we knew all along who Saddam was-but Iraq was a more westernized nation, it's women could vote, earn degrees, walk around unveiled-Iraq was a tourist attraction, world reknown museums, highways, skyscrapers-before we blew most of it away. Saddam threw out the UN inspectors-that's the third lie-we warned those inspectors that we would be abombing. Saddam is implicate in 9/11-this is the 4th lie-for I distinctly remember Saddam publicly announcing that he stood with the US denouncing the act, also he was no friend of AlQaeda. Saddam is manufacturing nuclear weapons and is buying yellow cake, that's the fifth lie. And if, as has been discussed, Saddam had bargained to step down to keep the US from attacking, then I'd say some of our inglorious leaders are murderers and thieves. Thieves, because the first thing after attacking Iraq was to secure the oil ministry. Not secure aresenals, protect museums, or nuclear material-but to secure the oil ministry.

I remember the horror of Falluja, the bombing of Baghdad--when will we cease this madness?

I cannot watch the film--I have already seen what we did to Falluja-I just can't watch it now.
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SnakeEyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
199. I don't know...
Ignoring all other talk of us being there and everything else... at 3:50 it sure does look like there are AKs and an RPG. If I were in that position I wouldn't even be thinking "maybe that's a tripod." And then from 4:06-4:20 it sure does look like someone setting up an RPG around the building corner. Especially at the end of that where he appears to stand up to take aim. Again, if I'm in a warzone that's what definitely what I'm seeing. For some of you to say this is deliberate attack on civilians is either a knee jerk reaction or you just don't understand the situation they are in... especially after being called in because others encountered RPGs and small arms fire.
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Brooklyns_Finest Donating Member (747 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
202. Way more to this story
It certainly was not murder. What was going on before the video started? We just see the part where the military is engaging the insurgents, but we don't know what caused the military to target this particular group. Those men did have weapons. Is it the pilots fault that the reporters decided to embed themselves with insurgents? As far as the kids go, well that was unfortunate, but like the pilot said, why would the driver/insurgent take his kids to a battle zone? I mean what good Samaritan would head towards the scene of a combat battle when you have helicopter gun ships flying overhead. More than likely, the van was an insurgent cleanup crew.

Feel free to flame me.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #202
206. More than likely it was not
Now are you going to also defend the discussion going on while they're killing them? My daughter recently got out of the military, my SIL is still in--do you think this action helps? Just by the photo it doesn't look like a weapon. I'm not going to flame you, but when you have a general in Afghanistan state that they killed people, but none of them were the bad guys--might you be a little concerned that you may be causing your goal more harm?

Or is it "kill them all and let God sort them out?"
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
204. The same General who got it wrong about Tillman got it wrong about who killed the women here too.
Maybe if super general got some sleep, his cognition would improve. In the meantime, what vital US objective is being sought in Afghanistan?
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Gumbyman2 Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
208. Just once...
It would have been nice if the soldiers doing the killing instead of cussing, joking and egging each other on, instead would have said I really wish I wouldn't have had to kill those people. It is so hard to watch how callous those pilots were. I know it is probably their coping mechanism, but it dose not show Americans in a very good light.
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johnroshan Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #208
217. That is exactly what struck me as I was watching the video.
Its as though they have been dehumanized to such an extent that even the issue of children getting injured due to their trigger happy fire is brushed aside with a nonchalant comment.

Like someone said earlier, I just feel a sense of profound sadness rather than anger.

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German Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
210. it seems, the standard procedure is the coverup
When soldiers dug the bullets out of the dead bodies of pregnant woman and "clean the scene" with alcohol after they "accidentally" killed. It shows they know they are murders


US Special Forces 'Tried to Cover-up' Botched Khataba Raid in Afghanistan

sick
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ericinne Donating Member (251 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
211. Here's the vid
Here's the YOUTUBE link for the vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0
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beckstcw Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
212. This isn't going to be very popular, but...
First off, watch the full, unedited one, without the political editorializing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is9sxRfU-ik

A little background is given in this one that is absent from the edited one. First off, the Apache's mission was to support that infantry platoon. A few minutes before the video starts, that platoon takes RPG and small arms fire in that vicinity, so the Apache is called up to find the guys doing it. Source: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hsNUg... the 12th paragraph.

Our video starts. They see a large group of people, all adult males, several of whom are armed. You can see 2 AK's and at least one actual RPG around 3:30-3:45 . Next, they see a man peeking around the corner and pointing what looks like an RPG at the infantryman about four blocks away. Armed men? Check. Immediate threat to American lives? Check. They get permission to fire, and as soon as they have a shot, they take it.

(For what it's worth, the actions of this group of people are very suspicious looking, especially in a combat zone mere minutes after US forces have been fired on. Including having the RPG firer simply poke around the corner and fire while everyone else hangs back to avoid backblast. See here for a slightly humorous example: . Obviously one example does not a trend make, but I'm just bringing it to your attention)

Secondly, I have yet to see anyone say that the group of guys with the reporters were NOT insurgents. For extra emphasis, at 30:45 there is more small arms fire. At 31:10 you see guys with AK's and body armor running away from the area. There was DEFINITELY a battle going on in this area, something that Wikileaks biased editing job carefully omits.

It wouldn't be the first time that Reuters stringers were hanging out with insurgents for some good pictures. For instance, this picture:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-11/14/con...

Was taken by none other than Namir Noor-Eldeen, one of the photographers killed in this attack. Wonder how he got that? How about THIS one:

http://blogs.reuters.com/blog/2007/07/18/losses-in-the-... /

Here, Namir is obviously standing about 10 feet away from insurgents as they commit an act of violence. I'm not passing judgement on him, I actually think it's good to have reporters as close as possible to the conflict, but I'm merely pointing out that hanging out with insurgents is something that Noor-Eldeen had been doing for a few years prior to his death.

Anyways, back to the video.

At 19:20, someone reports finding an RPG round.

At 32:54, someone asks if it's been defused yet, and is told "no, it's still live"

Even if everyone in Iraq has an AK, only the bad guys have RPG rounds. The discovery of an RPG round among the bodies makes me believe that Namir Noor-Eldeen was yet again hanging out with an insurgent group looking for great shots. He and the other photographer were almost certainly innocent of actual wrongdoing, but the armed men they were with were in all likelihood some of the ACTUAL insurgents who fired on US troops before the video started.

As for the van that was attacked, I'll admit that it's slightly sketchier, but I'll clarify that by noting that insurgents often clean up their own wounded, so an black van showing up with three or four adult men who immediately jump out and start aiding wounded insurgents is absolutely suspicious enough to make a case for engaging it. I don't know that I personally would have engaged that van, but I find in totally understandable that they did. Although, again, there's no proof that the men in the van weren't also insurgents, since the video leaves out a lot of context.

Yes, this video is disturbing simply for the sheer violence and immediate destruction. But think about it before mindlessly jumping to conclusions regarding what actually happened that day.
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-10 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #212
215. Hard to imagine if that bloody BS happened in the U.S...
and that it was Iraqi soldiers shooting at American 'insurgents' (for no reason other than greed, lies and abyssmal and endless stupidity all over the airwave$ 24/7).

I guess the rationalization would not work...

I feel sick, don't you?

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Progressive Cancer Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #212
224. No doubt?
In case of doubt the people in the van have to be considered as civilians and therefore they should not be engaged.

Even if they were insurgents, they take care of a wounded and are therefore protected under the Geneva conventions.
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #212
239. I wonder where the pilot's bloodthirsty chatter fits in your defense?
Begging a wounded dying man to get up so they could blast him again.
Blaming a father for having children in his car when they unleashed a hail of bullets.
Laughing because a vehicle runs over a man on the ground.

Where does all that fit into your "context?"
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #239
258. Pentagon has convinced these young men, it's all a video game . . .!!!
"Come on, fire!"

"Come on, shoot!"

These people aren't dead -- they are simply "disengaged" -- !!!

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change_notfinetuning Donating Member (750 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #212
240. Even if everything you say is true, I'm just curious if you think our 7 - 8 years
of war in that area has improved our national security, here at home. It seems to me that we have only succeeded in creating a lot more enemies, while making the United States and the world less safe.
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #240
270. "creating a lot more enemies, while making the United States and the world less safe"
and less sane and less just. Yes.

(Not that most of the "rest of the world" hasn't been highly, often intimately, aware of this situation for a long, long time now)...
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #240
278. +1000% -- absolutely!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #212
257. Amy Goodman video with Assange and Greenwald makes clear not true . .
Edited on Tue Apr-06-10 11:27 AM by defendandprotect
There was no warfare going on -- there had been reports of a shot or two fired --

may have been car backfiring? They had no verification of what it was.

The complete video makes clear the full attacks -- on innocent journalists walking in

the street -- on a wounded unarmed man, crawling away -- on a van which stops to try

to take the wounded man to hospital -- including having children with them --

And the final attack on the building where three families were killed -- including

bystanders in the street!!

Quite a stretch to defend all of that insane violence!!



Here: --

Go to the interviews with Assange and Greenwald -- second half of tape --

http://www.commondreams.org/video/2010/04/06-0

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change_notfinetuning Donating Member (750 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #257
273. Like people want to know what's true. C'mon! And, believe it or not, I am an
optimist.

Coming soon to a (Fox) network near you: American Warrior! - a new reality show where they show similar, real military videos, laughter and overzealousness included, and American morons get to vote on which military morons are their favorite American heroes.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #273
279. Agree . . . however, DU should have the truth, whether they want it or not ....
Love Amy Goodman -- so many journalists still who are working to try to tell us the truth!

Fox, is despicable -- but it's what the right wing has to do to make this a believably

violent nation! I think it's the way that patriarchy has always worked to move along its

own view of the world, which is confused and violent.

You have to teach violence in order for it to happen --

And the right wing has been very busy at that over the last 40+ years and more --

across all of our media.

JFK coup is when the violence came out into the open.



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ShannonBC Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #212
274. That's supposed to be an RPG?
If that's supposed to be an RPG, it must be made of balsa wood, because the guy carries it like it weighs next to nothing. Plus he does stuff with it that seems to be an incredibly unsafe thing to do with a loaded weapon.

I've heard analysts saying that it was most likely a camera tripod, and if you watch the guy carrying it, it looks like he's stopping to set it up just like you would with a tripod.

Plus, if there were AK-47's and RPGs there, WHERE DID THEY GO? Just before they open fire, you can see the group just standing there, hands empty, no AK-47's or RPG's to be seen. Where are they?

As for the van, I don't see any way that can be justified. You say there is no proof that they weren't insurgents, but last time I checked you needed proof that they WERE before you opened up. I don't see why insurgents would bring their kids into a battle, but I can definitely understand how some good Samaritans who just happened to be driving by might have some children with them.

And even if they were insurgents, they clearly weren't armed, or performing any hostile action. They were simply picking up the wounded (which the pilot incorrectly reports as being "bodies), presumably to take them to a hospital for treatment. I believe killing the wounded is a gross violation of the rules of engagement, is it not?

As for the RPG round, well, didn't you say there had been fighting there before? How can you be sure it belonged to the people being gunned down? Plus, if that was the RPG round, WHERE WAS THE RPG? Last time I checked, you needed a launcher to use it.

Plus of course there's the chatter of the pilots. They act like they're playing some kind of a video game. When they're stalking the wounded man, begging him to pick up a weapon so they can shoot him...that's just sick.
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ShannonBC Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #212
275. Chopper out of range of an RPG
Oh, and one more thing;

I measured the delay between the rounds being fired and their arriving on target as about 1.5 seconds. The muzzle velocity of a 30mm Apache round is given as 1350 m/s, meaning that the helicopter was about 2km from the target.

The maximum range (at this point, the odds of hitting a stationary target are about 4%) of an RPG is listed as 500m. In other words, even if they had an RPG, the pilots would have been in no danger.

What's more, they could have gotten twice as close and still have been well out of range. That could have made all the difference in determining whether or not they had weapons.

These guys could have made sure, but they didn't because they just wanted to kill someone. That simple. It boggles the mind that the US Army would trust these two psychotics with a heavily armed helicopter.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
218. ...makes you wonder what the view from a drone camera is like
and what kind of conversations and go-aheads happen before the Hellfires are turned loose on their distant, fuzzy targets. I wonder how much of this is going on in Afghanistan and Pakistan, right now.
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #218
272. ... And such material, video and audio, will all be stored in some Pentagon database
somewhere?
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KeepItReal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
219. Leaked U.S. video shows deaths of Reuters' Iraqi staffers
Source: Reuters

Classified U.S. military video showing a 2007 attack by Apache helicopters that killed a dozen people in Baghdad, including two Reuters news staff, was released on Monday by a group that promotes leaking to fight government and corporate corruption.
...

Major Shawn Turner, a spokesman for U.S. Central Command, said an investigation of the incident shortly after it occurred found that U.S. forces were not aware of the presence of the news staffers and thought they were engaging armed insurgents.
...

The gunsight tracks two of the men, identified by WikiLeaks as the Reuters news staff, as the fliers identify their cameras as weapons. Military spokesman Turner said that during the engagement, the helicopter mistook a camera for a rocket-propelled grenade launcher.
...

Assange (Julian Assange, a WikiLeaks spokesman) said he disagreed with a U.S. military assessment that the attack was justified.
"I believe that if those killings were lawful under the rules of engagement, then the rules of engagement are wrong, deeply wrong," he said. The fliers in the video act "like they are playing a computer game and their desire is they want to get high scores" by killing opponents, he said.


Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE6344FW201...



Here's an additional page dedicated to the Reuters cameramen:

http://www.thebaron.info/namirnooreldeenandsaeedchmagh....
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
220. Wikileaks Update: US mil investigation doc is 'junk;' people avoiding talking of attack on van
Via Twitter: US mil releases Iraq massacre investigation doc; note the tone. its junk http://bit.ly/cP9eoN
about 2 hours ago via bit.ly

Lots of people avoiding talking murderous attack on the van/wounded; strawmanning camera/rpg confusion as the issue
about 3 hours ago via bit.ly
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MellonCollie Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #220
225. "strawmanning camera/rpg confusion as the issue"
Yeah, there seems to be a lot of that going on.
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 04:56 AM
Response to Original message
226. The best of the best: Defending our Freedom (tm)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/05/wikileaks-u...

"One of the men on the ground, believed to be Chmagh, is seen wounded and trying to crawl to safety. One of the helicopter crew is heard wishing for the man to reach for a gun, even though there is none visible nearby, so he has the pretext for opening fire: "All you gotta do is pick up a weapon." A van draws up next to the wounded man and Iraqis climb out. They are unarmed and start to carry the victim to the vehicle in what would appear to be an attempt to get him to hospital. One of the helicopters opens fire with armour-piercing shells. "Look at that. Right through the windshield," says one of the crew. Another responds with a laugh.

Sitting behind the windscreen were two children who were wounded.

After ground forces arrive and the children are discovered, the American air crew blame the Iraqis. "Well it's their fault for bringing kids in to a battle," says one. "That's right," says another."

The pentagon says WikiLeaks is a threat to National Security ... Please. Can we end this horrible farce now?
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 05:58 AM
Response to Original message
229. Maybe worth appending here what Sen. Ron Paul & followers
have to say about this: http://www.dailypaul.com/node/130811

"The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded."
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Christa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 06:11 AM
Response to Original message
231. K & R nt
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yellowwood Donating Member (550 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
233. It's Not Enough
It's not enough to "feel" outrage when you watch this video.
We all must unite to keep another stupid war like this from occurring. It's quite obvious that we are being led into a war with Iran next.
The horror of this video is not only the death of the Iraqis. It is the death of the souls of the Americans who have to live with this.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #233
277. "We all must unite to keep another stupid war like this from occurring"
We did.

We voted out the warmonger Bush.

...

Only to find that Nobel-Peace-Prize-winner Obama is just another war monger.

Now what?
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Swagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
236. this is being shown on every main news broadcast in Australia and
elswehere..but not the USA I guess. So sad.
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amyrose2712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
238. Sigh. nt
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hellsbeagle Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
241. That was fucking murder
Perpetrated by an out of control war machine.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
244. I bet that happens on a daily bases...
You would think that if the civilians had guns on them, they all would have opened fire on the helicopter early in the video. They were just walking across the court yard so the Reuters guys could take some pictures, they were not armed!!

that shit is keeping 'amerika safe'?? that was fucking revolting to watch. Helicopter was never fired upon, they had no reason to engage at all!!

"I just ran over a body..." says the SICK fuck with a chuckle...

"Come on, lets shot" says the cowboy in the helicopter!!
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
245. My heart could not bear to watch it. I am glad you all are and hope you can do something about it.
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
246. The drone warfare currently being conducted is no different than this.
It is just as indiscriminate and horrific.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
249. So sad.
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brettjv Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
259. If this were in the US itself
Edited on Tue Apr-06-10 11:42 AM by brettjv
... and these were armed invaders walking our streets, then the first shooting I'd consider an acceptable mistake.

But this is THEIR country, not ours. Our standards for firing upon their citizens should be MUCH MUCH higher that what was exhibited here.

You're in a helicopter for god sake. How about you just friggin fly further away, out of RPG range, as a first course of action, and observe, and make sure that you are correct in your assessment that what you think is an RPG ... is? How about you watch and see whether these people take up an offensive stance?

And I'm sorry, but firing on the guys in the van is just completely over the top wrong and illegal. And the soldiers comments surrounding it are bloodthirsty and despicable.

That was illegal by Geneva Conventions without a doubt.

We just have NO RIGHT to be doing this shit in someone else's country that we invaded under false pretenses to begin with.

It's all just so friggin wrong.
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
261. At 3:43 in the video it looks like those men are carrying weapons.
Edited on Tue Apr-06-10 11:56 AM by citizen snips
Pause it at 3:43 and the man on the far left is carrying a weapon.

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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #261
262. The Weekly Standard??????
You should be ashamed!




FSH
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #262
263. the video is still the same as the one youtube.
Edited on Tue Apr-06-10 11:54 AM by citizen snips
It is just where I found the video.
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #263
265. So You Don't Endorse The WS Snowjob That Accompanies The Video?
Why didn't you just link back to Wikileaks or Youtube or any one of 100 sites that have the video? You're giving money to the Weekly Slandered.

FSH
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #265
266. I am not giving money to the weekly standard
Edited on Tue Apr-06-10 11:56 AM by citizen snips
just giving my opinion
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-10 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #261
284. Baloney . . . and the soldier/murderers are BEGGING for the wounded man crawling ......
Edited on Tue Apr-06-10 07:47 PM by defendandprotect
to have a weapon!!!

He doesn't, of course!!

And these soldiers will be coming home to live among us again -- !!
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jman0 Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-07-10 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #261
286. "Carrying a weapon" is not a crime punishable by death, even in Iraq
n/a
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