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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:59 AM
Original message
U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 11:02 AM by sabra
Source: ABC News

Pentagon Supplier for Rifle Sights Says It Has 'Always' Added New Testament References

Coded references to New Testament Bible passages about Jesus Christ are inscribed on high-powered rifle sights provided to the United States military by a Michigan company, an ABC News investigation has found.

The sights are used by U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the training of Iraqi and Afghan soldiers. The maker of the sights, Trijicon, has a $660 million multi-year contract to provide up to 800,000 sights to the Marine Corps, and additional contracts to provide sights to the U.S. Army.

U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn up in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarked on a religious "Crusade" in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents.

One of the citations on the gun sights, 2COR4:6, is an apparent reference to Second Corinthians 4:6 of the New Testament, which reads: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

Other references include citations from the books of Revelation, Matthew and John dealing with Jesus as "the light of the world." John 8:12, referred to on the gun sights as JN8:12, reads, "Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-military-weapons-inscr...




At the end of the serial number on Trijicon's ACOG gun sight, you can read "JN8:12", a reference to the New Testament book of John, Chapter 8, Verse 12, which reads: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." The ACOG is widely used by the U.S. military. Collapse
(ABC News)
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
1. Not too different from the Nazi tradition of nationalistic God preference.


This is what is commonly known as "WWI Trench Art" This example Cpl. Curtis brought home is a Crucifix made from an upside down large calibre bullet and casing, with 3 more bullets forming the top of the cross. In the center is a German Army belt buckel with the German words "Gott Mit Uns" on it, which translated means "God with us." Christ then hangs from the buckel.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
22. The shield is from the standard issue belt buckle




The joke among US troops was that "Gott Mit Uns" was what the under-equipped Germans kept asking each other at the Russian front ("Got mittens?")

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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. what ever happened to "shoot the other cheek"
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bjobotts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
208. So it really is the "Crusades" huh? Stay tuned for "Jews just aren't Christian enough"to have oil.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #208
212. If you're trying to imply the neo theos are against Israel or more against Israel than they are
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 11:44 PM by No Elephants
against Muslims, you are mistaken.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #30
335. He's back in his hidey hole.
:shrug:
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
89. Thnks for that Nazi GOTT MINS UNS buckle!

I've been looking for that image for a long while!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
90. It was the Kaiser's armies that started using the Gott mit uns buckles
People don't realize how Hitler merely expanded things already in place.
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #90
130. And, of course, it goes back further than that
The "Gott mit uns" slogan was more associated with the Prussian kingdom and then empire, as it was the slogan of Frederick I, who had taken it from the Swedish king Gustavus Adolphus, who had taken it from Nobiscum deus, a phrase originating during the Christian phase of the Roman Empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gott_mit_uns

The combination of militarism and freaky religiosity in German culture certainly didn't originate with Hitler and the Nazis, nor is it, of course, a uniquely German phenomenon, as the story in the OP reminds us.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
116. That was the Wehrmacht belt buckle.
The SS had on its belt buckles, Meine Ehre heisst Treue "My Honor is Loyalty."
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. .
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 03:35 PM by burning rain
.
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PatrynXX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
127. was all set for a debate and it was deflated with mittens
o_O lol. Thanks for making my day :P

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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
133. Heh. So much for the Hitler was an atheist canard.
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 04:49 PM by D23MIURG23
Sorry for the total lack of relevance of that to the rest of the thread, but I couldn't help myself.
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Unca Jim Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #133
147. Well...
Hitler was an atheist, but why wouldn't he manipulate people with religion?
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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #147
179. Hitler was a catholic.
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 08:58 PM by D23MIURG23
Hitler was raised by Roman Catholic parents, but after he left home, he never attended Mass or received the sacraments.<297> However, after he had moved to Germany, where the Catholic and the Protestant church are largely financed through a church tax collected by the state, Hitler (like Goebbels) never "actually left his church or refused to pay church taxes. In a nominal sense therefore," the historian Steigmann-Gall states, Hitler "can be classified as Catholic."<298>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

Additionally, here are some quotes linking him to Christianity:

"The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement) was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge."

Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 3

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."

Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46

"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief."

Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.152

More at http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/list_of_hitl...

A lot of people want to paint Hitler as an atheist who was trying to confuse everyone by continually paying lip service to Christianity. Such a standard conveniently allows any controversial figure in history to become an "atheist" without their knowledge or consent.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #179
198. With all due respect, you can know what church someone attended, but you can't know what was in his
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 10:56 PM by No Elephants
or her mind and heart.

After Mother Teresa died, info was published that she did not believe in God most of her adult life--or, at least, had a great deal of trouble believing in God. She was a Catholic, too.

In any event, it's perfectly possible for someone to attend Mass, go to confession, etc. ad still be an atheist.

I would not assume sincerity on the part of Hitler. If religion was useful to him--and religious bigotry most definitely was--he would use it, no matter what he personally believed.
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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #198
226. Since when is a person's explicitly stated religious preference invalidated by speculation as to the
sincerity of their beliefs?

I'm not trying to argue that Hitler was a good representative for Catholicism, I'm arguing that he was demonstrably a member of the Catholic church, and demonstrably used Christian religious content in his rhetoric. I do realize that people can say one thing and believe another, but I think it's typically considered dishonest to classify a person as a member of a group with whom they never explicitly or materially identified.

On the question of whether Hitler actually believed what he very clearly claimed to believe, I lack insight and so do you. The point is that he played the part of a catholic, enjoyed the credibility that bought him with the German people and the clergy, and was only branded an atheist later, after he authorized genocide. Is it equivalently ok for me to argue that Stalin was really a scientologist, on the grounds that he might have secretly found Xenu on his deathbed, despite his consistent anti-religious stance?
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #198
292. ...
I would not assume sincerity on the part of Pat Robertson. If religion was useful to him--and religious bigotry most definitely was--he would use it, no matter what he personally believed.

I would not assume sincerity on the part of Pope Benedict. If religion was useful to him--and religious bigotry most definitely was--he would use it, no matter what he personally believed.

I would not assume sincerity on the part of the Dalai Lama. If religion was useful to him--and religious bigotry most definitely was--he would use it, no matter what he personally believed.
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HealthyDemocracy Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #198
358. An eye.
It is always important to keep an eye on one's government.

Without a vigilant populous corruption can become the norm and not the exception.

I have no problem with the inscription on the gun sight as long as it's meaning is disclosed to the public.
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Jax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #358
359. okay noted
you joined today to kick this thread.

noted.
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Unca Jim Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #179
305. In Public, sure...
Here are some quotes from his private notes:

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together."
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity."
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>.

That said, he was a vegetarian too. I have nothing against either group.
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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #305
324. A lot of Hitler's private statements are disputed and possibly fabricated.
Got any links?
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Unca Jim Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #324
328. Sure...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious...

I have no personal agenda, nor any statement to make. It just seems to me upon reading Hitler and biographies of Hitler that he was pretty much an atheist with contempt for all religion who only spoke positively of it when he was trying to persuade others.

What next, are we going to argue about whether Stalin was an atheist, or Mao?

Hitler was a vegetarian too, but I'm not disparaging anyone by mentioning that either.
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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #328
336. Maybe you should actually read what is at your link
Hitler's private statements about Christianity were often conflicting. Hitler's intimates, such as Joseph Goebbels, Albert Speer, and Martin Bormann suggest that Hitler generally had negative opinions of religion, although the historical validity of some remarks has been questioned, particularly the english translation of Hitler's Table Talk. Historian Ian Kershaw remarked upon questionable nature of Table Talk as a source, stating "the `table talk monologues of the last months (the so called `bunkergesprche) of which no German text has ever been brought to light must be treated with due caution."<18> Historian Richard Carrier goes further, contending that certain portions of Table Talk especially those regarding Hitler's hostility of Christianity are poor mistranslations.<19> Carrier states that Hitler was criticizing Catholicism in particular, while remaining entirely religious.<20> Albert Speer confirmed the authenticity of Henry Picker's German transcripts, which was published in 1951 as Tischgesprche im Fhrerhauptquartier.<21> Carrier states, "It is clear that Picker and Jochmann have the correct text and Trevor-Roper's is entirely untrustworthy."<20>...

Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939: "The Fhrer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. ...

from your link - emphases mine.


No, we aren't going to argue about Stalin or Mao, just as we wouldn't argue about Bertrand Russell. These people, after all, were clear and open about their atheism, and didn't leave any doubts about where they stood. They did not have histories of making strong statements of faith and only vague, questionable implications of heresy and or non-belief. I don't know what "deeply religious but deeply anti-christian" means, but it isn't athiesm, especially given that his public persona was entirely married to religion. Are we going to argue about whether Pat Robertson is an athiest next? Who knows what he really thinks, after all? Do you think it matters at all when someone is an open member of a religious sect, or is their public conduct something that can be waved away at a whim?

(apologies to Bertrand Russell for the dismal company)
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #147
270. False. nt
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Unca Jim Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #270
306. True
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #306
314. So all those speeches about his love for god and the fatherland...
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 03:23 PM by Deep13
...were just--what? He's certainly not above lying, but is there is no specific reason to doubt his religious claims, then what is the basis of your conclusion? Isn't the definition of a christian one who believes in the divinity and salvation of Jesus Christ? AH is on the record affirming just that. And if there is evidence that he was an apostate, why hasn't the Vatican EVER excomunicated ANY member of the Third Reich government except for one who married a Protestant?
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Unca Jim Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #314
325. Don't really disagree
...that he was nominally Catholic.

Just responded tone for tone in annoyance.

Sorry.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #325
332. Is this another example of me not understanding implicit meaning?
Sorry.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #22
137. It can't be noted too often: so much for separation of church and state. nt
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Kutjara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
158. The Brits had a similar joke.
Apparently, after seeing the "Gott Mit Uns" signs posted around German trenches, the Tommies posted "We got mittens, too" signs in theirs.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #158
199. Lol

That's a riot.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #22
196. Coincidentally, that was a joke during the Republican primaries, too.
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HillbillyBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
51. I was just telling a friend about a run in with a murderer for gawd
who started in on how he and his other dominionist fiends err friends were going to start a 'revolution' to rid this country of jews, faggots, n----, atheists and several other groups. Then went on to tell me he has m80 machine guns,rpgs and several other high powered weapons and how many hundreds of rounds of ammo for all of these, I did not get it all since I was sidling toward the door.
Being gay and having some Jewish/mixed race ancestors this all made me very nervous since I was unarmed and he was between me and the door. I found it kind of odd since he was running a tattoo parlor that does body piercings, needless to say I have not been back there since and did not even stay to get an estimate on the tattoo I had wanted repair/ recolored.
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Electric Monk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #51
132. Sounds like a job for the FBI or Homeland Security
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #132
293. OTOH, he could have been an FBI undercover -
the more outrageously they talk, the likelier they are to be a Fed.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
56. God, corporations and a perceived threat are vital to fascism
these are all fascists left over from Bush.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #56
245. Zactly, and well said, Gman. nt
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SsevenN Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
98. Yeah it reminds me of that too...
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 02:40 PM by SsevenN
Except for the following discrepencies.

The ACOG is manufactured by a private company that has a contract w/ the .mil, THEY were the ones who wanted the inscriptions on their sights. (And btw it's their fucking product.)

The .Mil obviously hadn't figured out what the additional stampings meant, or else they would have taken care of this problem and it wouldn't have been brought to our attention through a MSM source.

Now that the .Mil does know about the markings and what they represent, they will obviously deal with it, because it's in violation of a law, as stated in the article.

The Fascist Nazi movement didn't exist until years after WWI

So in retrospect, this doesn't remind me AT ALL, about anything related to whatever you're blabbing about.

Pesky facts, getting in the way of a good strawman...
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #98
157. Defensive much?
Unnecessarily rude with it too.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #98
210. they have a right to make their "fucking product" any crazy way they want, I guess. And no one has
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 12:28 AM by No Elephants
said otherwise. Nor is the point whether they just began making the bullets this way, or whether they always did. So, those two issues are YOUR straw men.

Also, you have zero idea what knowledge and intent was or was not in the minds of the military. Or, for that matter, in the minds of these loony manufacturers. But, what is in their minds is also irrelevant.

Point is, they do not have an unqualified right to receive taxpayer dollars for their "fucking product" , or to have it used by the armed forces of the United States, especially those who are being sent to Muslim countries.

As for "tradition," pls. see Reply # 220.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #98
246. Way to put him down!
By calling his words blabbing! Good, maybe you hurt his feelings. That will teach him not to express himself! :sarcasm:
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clear eye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
101. Um, the Nazis didn't exist in the time of WWI. n/t
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #101
111. Point taken, thank you.
When I was in Germany, I saw Nazi memorabilia that resembled that cross/dagger. I didn't read the caption carefully.
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frog92969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #101
254. Founded in 1919
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party

Relocated to U.S. in 1945
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
249. Not too different from the ancient Romans either. n/t
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pocoloco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
257. Can you imagine what is written on the bombs???
Missiles?
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. Inscribed hell, that is molded in the metal
That is something that is done when the parts for the gun are cast.

I thought maybe someone was taking a scribe or other tool and engraving them or something. This is intentional at design.
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. Replace the word Bible with Koran.
Those crazy Muslims! Things have really gotten out of hand. My guess is that they discovered that sane American soldiers would not go off on a killing spree of innocents for oil without invoking the Christian God. Hey, if they kill in God's name with his gun then things aren't so bad. This inscription crap is very sickening. Keep in mind folks that the holder of the gun doesn't have a care who is at the barrel's tip when doing the Lord's work.
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Djarun Donating Member (63 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
154. I wonder
What happens with these guns when "friendly fire occurs", or if the American soldier that carries that gun is Muslim? Maybe the Muslim/American soldiers get the The Holy Qur'an equivalent verse?
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. Wow, talk about crazy
I just can't fathom how stupid people can be when it comes to religion.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. Well, this ought to really help our effort to stabilize Afghanistan ...
Maybe we can get our own Sepoy Rebellion going.
:sarcasm:
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. Oh, Hell no. That's it. Organized religion simply has to go.
Believe whatever you want in your heart, but clearly large groupings of death cults will be the end of the world.
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
6. Who would Jesus kill? Wow, and they call themselves Christians.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
7. I just re-read this and I really think I might vomit.
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beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
42. That was my reaction too.
I don't think a full page of :wtf:'s and :puke:'s would even begin to cover it.

The sound of the Founders whirling in their graves is deafening.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. But we have to save the world from people killing in the name of God
What a fucking joke.
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beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #45
60. Bravely fighting "religious extremeists"...
with our religiously extreme weapons. :eyes:

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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
8. Right wing Christianity gone amuck. "God loved the world so much that he said, pop a cap in your
enemies ass". Jeez! The insanity of it all.
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carla Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
65. You got all of us here
ROFLOAO!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #8
247. Jesus simply did not
understand how to make money for the military industrial complex.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
9. If that doesn't violate separation of church and state, I don't know what does.
I probably don't know what separation of church and state really means.

Surreal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr1KA5GXUGM
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
345. It has something to do with the constitution.
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Jumping John Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
10. These References are probably there so that more hate is generated against our troops. I mean
since this company is in the killing for money business, how could they be a follower of the Christian doctrine? And if the references to the bible causes more anger and killing, then it is a win-win for this company. It is just another example of capitalism at work at the expense of the individual serf. I wonder how this Pseudo - Christian company feels about its sites being used by the Baby killers that work for Blackwater.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. No - a heckuva lot of these companies that got their start
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 11:39 AM by RamboLiberal
in the civilian market - which Trijicon did are run by RW fundies. This company was big in the civilian market - especially action shooting sports first and then found a killing when the military started equipping their weapons with these red dot and long distance scopes.

The Pentagon needs to force them to remove the engravings or the contract is revoked. And they should pay a heavy, heavy fine for putting those engravings on the scopes.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
66. It's like In-N-Out Burger
They put Bible references under their cups.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #66
144. wow i didn't know that
i don't think my double double's going to taste as good when i get back out to CA - :(
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #144
164. Don't fret
The family that owns the chain is just very religious, and by now it's kind of tradition. The print is small and inconspicuous, obvious since you've never seen it, even on the double-double wrappers.

I went back a couple years ago and they're just as good. Still the best fast food in the country.

Still go there. They are family-owned, not franchised, and pay their employees better than the other chains.

I used to hit the second one from the 50s in Baldwin Park as a kid (the first one got torn down in the 50s before I was born).
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #164
204. Don't fret? What was it you didn't like about Bush?
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #204
221. His royal lowness Bush I, not Shrub
He said atheists can't be patriots or citizens.

I went to war for that ignorant, arrogant, delusional ass!

Aw crap, you got me started.

Calm down.

Prevent rant.

...

I'm okay now.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #164
242. my first double double
was almost 40 years ago. i had a boyfriend who lived out in the boondocks maybe near azusa? decades later they came to the south bay. yum. here in NC i still eat chik fil a it's the same story. they still close on sunday.

but these are private enterprises not military contractors.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #242
331. This is a private enterprise too
They've been selling these scopes on the civilian market for years.

The military just decided to buy them too.

Nobody on the government side noticed the Bible verses when placing the order.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #331
344. they're a private enterprise
paid for by taxes. not the same thing.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #344
352. Do you know how many contractors there are?
It is not only the huge corporations getting paid to develop systems.

Tens of thousands, from large corporations to mom & pop businesses are contractors.

I know a woman who runs a small computer retail and repair shop. She's a government contractor.

Because the government also buys your stuff doesn't mean your company is "paid for by taxes."

The government puts out the bid, you bid, you win, the government buys. Now you're a contractor.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-21-10 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #352
353. yes i'm sure there are many contractors
my point was i can choose whether or not to buy a double double, but not whether to buy gun sights that evangelize.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #66
295. The difference being that those cups are not issued to our troops
to throw hot coffee in the faces of our non-christian enemies.
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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
11. I'm sure our own Muslim American troops will feel great about this. The contract with
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 11:35 AM by salguine
this company needs to be terminated immediately and the reason why needs to be trumpeted loudly.
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Jester Messiah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
43. They might prefer a koranic reference, but the OT and NT are part of their tradition as well.
As Christianity stands upon Judaism, so does Islam stand upon both.
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spirit of wine Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #43
110. I would prefer an atheistic slogan on my scope
like "there are no atheists in foxholes, or for that matter no supreme being. Just shoot straight and go home."
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Jester Messiah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #110
123. No argument here. It's all BS so far as I'm concerned.
Of course, religion is historically a huge motivator for killing people, so maybe it's appropriate...?
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #110
225. Sorry, bu tthat has no more place on a taxpayer purchased weapon than does a cite to a Bible verse.
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VermeerLives Donating Member (287 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #43
169. How so?
How, exactly, does Islam "stand upon" Christianity and Judaism? Islam is as different from Christianity and Judaism as night and day.
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Jester Messiah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #169
262. I suggest cracking a book or asking Google.
But to summarize: Islam views Jesus as a prophet (but not the son of god.) The new testament of the bible is regarded in the same way as Christians regard the Torah. (ie, backstory)
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #43
202. Not really. Muslims think both the Jews and the Christians got it wrong
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 11:05 PM by No Elephants
in the OT and the NT.

And some countries in the part of the world outlaw bringing Bibles into the country.

You will find no counterpart to those two things in Christianity vis a vis the OT.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #202
296. Which makes it a doctrinal disagreement - much like the one between
those who think the messiah is yet to come and those who think he already has come, on which point the latter have been murdering the former for two millenia. Yet nowhere in the NT is there a commandment to 'kill the jews'. Just as there is no commandment to 'kill the christians' in the Koran.

As for 'no counterpart', for much of the past two millenia jews (and thus their books) were banned in most christian countries, at one time or another - the most recent example resulting in the Holocaust. So don't pretend that xtians are any better than muslims in that regard.

All three are honored in Muslim tradition as 'People of the Book'.
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
12. Revoke their contract now.
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SergeStorms Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
129. Could you imagine the uproar?
The religious fascists in this country would have a SHIT FIT about "religious persecution" if someone tried to stop them from doing this. Heck, they cry "religious persecution" when someone tells them to back off from their constant proselytizing. They actually believe it's their constitutional right to force people, by whatever means necessary, to accept their beliefs. They have no idea what REAL religious persecution is.



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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
15. This is Christian black magic, no two ways about it.
Congratulations. You've become the Satan you think you're fighting.
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RedRocco Donating Member (253 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
35. that's what I thought too: blackmagic
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
107. exactly.....
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
16. What the hell is wrong with this country?!?!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
85. Fascism .... patriarchy is fascism... organized patriarchal religion is the
underpinning for fascism --

MIC = fascism

Corporatism = fascism

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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #85
308. Yes, I agree. how do we change this?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #308
329. Hi -- almost missed your response . . . Love it!!
Well, I think it would take at least a few of us to work on answers to that!

See my PM --

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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
146. a lot
we have been sickened. i hope we recover.
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #146
310. :( I don't even see how it is possible to recover.
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Christa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
17. God is love


:wtf:

I cannot understand how any christian can support war.

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AsahinaKimi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
176. When the Conquistadors
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 08:50 PM by AsahinaKimi
and Corts had his campaign against the Aztecs it was in the name of the Christian God.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #176
203. And they were wrong. So?
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AsahinaKimi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #203
219. read the above post
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 12:18 AM by AsahinaKimi
"I cannot understand how any christian can support war."

Its been all though out history. Some things never change.
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VermeerLives Donating Member (287 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
349. God is love, but
The God of the Bible is love, certainly, but His most significant attribute is his holiness. His love is holy; his justice is holy; his mercy is holy.

His commandments are holy, too.

If you do not believe the "any Christian can support war," then do you believe that Christians should not join the military? Where in the Bible are Christians forbidden to be soldiers. Even the Roman soldier who came to Jesus asking for healing for his servant, was not criticized by Jesus for being a soldier.

Furthermore, how do you reconcile the fact that this country had to fight a war to end slavery? That there were Christians on both sides of that conflict?

o you believe it was wrong for Christians to fight Hitler? Do you believe in self-defense, and defending the innocent from tyranny? Sometimes wars must be fought to prevent evil from prevailing; that was certainly true in WWII. How would you have proposed stopping Hitler?
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dugaresa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
18. oh the irony of putting quotes from the "prince of peace" on weapons.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #18
288. Amazing that they're too blind to see it, eh?
:crazy:
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
19. I bet...
Bullet manufacturers probably grease their bullets with pig lard.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. who could possibly be gullible enuff to attribute any religious value to pigs or their fat? anyone?
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
109. Probably the same people that are gullible enough....
to believe in a God that has to wait until his only begotten kid is tortured and murdered before he can forgive the other kids he made.
By the way...did he ever give that little girl he impregnated without marrying her any child support?
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
151. Someone whose sacred religious book was written by people who were on the run from the authorities
I've pointed out on several occasions Leviticus (where the Jewish dietary restrictions are) is basically a survival manual...and when all the little Levites started dropping like flies because they were eating uncooked pork (trichinosis), shellfish harvested during red tides (paralytic shellfish poisoning), eels (ciguatera), tularemia (rabbits)...someone decided to tell the people God didn't want them to eat these things. Or Allah in the case of Muslims; trichinosis doesn't respect religious boundaries.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
36. That accusation is old, it was the stated claim for the Great Indian Mutiny of 1857
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galileoreloaded Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
20. Trijicon and the ACOG has been around along time.......
an this is the first we hear of this?? We have a bigger problem w/ Fundy soldiers than we realized.

FYI, their contract will never be dumped, the product is just too good.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
182. Unh, this has nothing to do with the soldiers...
Trijicon, as you say, has been around for a while, and has done this since their inception. Heck, I've used their stuff a bit (it really is good) and never noticed this. Of course I'm not a Christian.

Much ado about nothing or, in other words, another manufactured faux-P.C.-hysteria-du-jour.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #182
209. Tax dollars should not be going to disseminate cites to Bible verses on bullets. I object to
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 11:26 PM by No Elephants
that, as a taxpayer, as a believer in the Establishment Clause as Jefferson described it, AND as a Christian.

And characterizing every criticism or objection as hysteria, bashing, etc. is "roll eyes" worthy, cheap shot. Doesn't strengthen your argument -- if you have one.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #209
228. Too late to edit, but the cites are not on bullets, but on weapons. Same principle, tho.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #228
285. And they are not on the "weapons" per se...
but on the dismountable electronic sight system.

File off the bible reference (a raised casting on the body), cover with a dab of paint, and Bob's yer uncle.

Cry me a frikken river.
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
21. See # 16.
~PEACE~
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
24. Disgusting
:puke:
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Christa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
25. Hells bells, I missed this part
The maker of the sights, Trijicon, has a $660 million multi-year contract to provide up to 800,000 sights to the Marine Corps, and additional contracts to provide sights to the U.S. Army.


Is this our tax dollars at work???

I am so damn FURIOUS now.

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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #25
286. Half as much as the supplimental educational funding Obama is begging for
priorities? Damn, the shit this country does to make a handful of crazy rich fuckers even richer at the expense of every living thing on the planet. It truly boggles the mind. :crazy:
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
297. Wha??? 800,000 sights?
When there are only 200,000 Marines, and probably not more than 1 in a hundred will ever be issued a scoped rifle?

WTF??

Somebody's making a pretty penny on that deal.
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
26. K&R. nt
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
27. Onward Christian Snipers. n/t
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. Precisely what my wife sang when she heard this. No kidding.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #27
192. We have been killing in the name of the lord for milinea
and the way it looks, it won't stop til real Americans say "enough."
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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
28. But Obama says God is in the mix in marriage (a governmentally licensed transaction). Why not this?
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Kermitt Gribble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
29. I'm sure Jesus would approve of this.
:sarcasm:
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Hersheygirl Donating Member (353 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
31. These people are just plain sick and disgusting.
Is there any wonder why organized religion will be the downfall of civilization as we know it now.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
32. Utter profanity. How is it that conservatives can freak at "offensive" art
and not see how evil this is?
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
34. This company deserves a corporate death penalty.
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DesertDiamond Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
37.  This is a horrific slander against Jesus, who taught peace and love!!
BTW, I'm a Buddhist. But this stuff infuriates me! This reflects the OPPOSITE of his teachings, and of all that my Christian friends stand for and live by. On his behalf and theirs, I am horrified.







































































































































































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AsahinaKimi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
181. As a fellow Buddhist
I agree.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #37
216. The words attributed to Jesus Christ disagree with you...
Matthew 10

34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn" 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law 36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #216
287. So "honor thy father and thy mother" was just bullshit?
The contradictions are why I can't buy what's in the Bible. It's too much like Tarot cards; you can make it mean whatever you want it to mean to fit your agenda.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #287
319. I believe honor thy father and mother is Old Testament.
I agree the Holy Bible is inconsistent and contradicts itself. The Holy Bible should be called the Holy Rorschach.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #319
320. Lol! nt
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V_Byl Donating Member (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
38. I just got berated by my father in law...
...a weekend or two ago because he was spouting off about how the Muslim religion is poisonous and they are supposed to kill all non Muslims, blah blah, and instead of just letting it slide I gave him a piece of my mind.

I told him all religions are nuts.

I'm glad this is coming from Michigan. It give me another reason to move out of this hell-hole state.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
82. You might be interested in this re US creation of "violent" Islam teachings . . .
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 01:31 PM by defendandprotect
See the second part -- IN BOLD



REQUOTED FROM MY JOURNAL . . .

FIRST PART OF THIS DEALS WITH HOW US/CIA CREATED TALIBAN AND AL QAEDA . . .
TO BAIT RUSSIANS INTO AFGHANISTAN . . .!!!


SECOND PART DEALS WITH THE TEXTBOOKS --



The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs <"From the Shadows">, that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Q: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Q: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

http://www.takeoverworld.info/brzezinski_i ... ...



---------------------------------------------------

SECOND PART --


The US spent $100's of millions shooting down Soviet helicopters yet didn't spend a penny helping Afghanis rebuild their infrastructure and institutions.

They also spent millions producing jihad preaching, fundamentalist textbooks and shipping them off to Afghanistan. These were the same text books the Western media discussed in shocked tones and told their audiences were used by fundamentalist teachers to brainwash their charges and to inculcate in young Afghanis a jihad mindset, hatred of foreigners and non-Muslims etc.


Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal?

Or perhaps I should say, "Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal that's waiting to happen?"

Because it has been almost unreported in the Western media that the US government shipped, and continues to ship, millions of Islamist textbooks into Afghanistan.

Only one English-speaking newspaper we could find has investigated this issue: the Washington Post. The story appeared March 23rd.

Washington Post investigators report that during the past twenty years the US has spent millions of dollars producing fanatical schoolbooks, which were then distributed in Afghanistan.

"The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books..." -- Washington Post, 23 March 2002 (1)

According to the Post the U.S. is now "...wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism."

So the books made up the core curriculum in Afghan schools. And what were the unintended consequences? The Post reports that according to unnamed officials the schoolbooks "steeped a generation in violence."

How could this result have been unintended? Did they expect that giving fundamentalist schoolbooks to schoolchildren would make them moderate Muslims?

Nobody with normal intelligence could expect to distribute millions of violent Islamist schoolbooks without influencing school children towards violent Islamism. Therefore one would assume that the unnamed US officials who, we are told, are distressed at these "unintended consequences" must previously have been unaware of the Islamist content of the schoolbooks.

But surely someone was aware. The US government can't write, edit, print and ship millions of violent, Muslim fundamentalist primers into Afghanistan without high officials in the US government approving those primers.

http://www.tenc.net/articles/jared/jihad.h ...


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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #82
167. Your link is broken.
You have good information and I wanted to use the link :
http://www.takeoverworld.info/brzezinski_i
but it seems to be incomplete..I got a 404 error.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #167
330. Hi -- I have another link for that I think but have to check my files . . .
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 08:21 PM by defendandprotect
However, that story is in his book -- and is all over the internet so if you

can do a minimal search, you'll find it --

Unfortunately, right now I can't do a search -- computer problem!

OK -- I'll try to get back to you with something later --

:)



PS -- Okay this one seems to work --

http://www.takeoverworld.info/brzezinski_interview_shor...



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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
39. killing in the name of...
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #39
55. "Thou shalt not take The Name of The Lord thy God in vain;
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 12:46 PM by Hubert Flottz
Exodus 20 : 7

Hubert 1:2, "And they knew not their ass from a hole in the ground."

Our own tax dollars paying for this...

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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #55
67. .
:applause:
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #55
108. umm Hubert...where can I buy your book? :P
heheh...
and here is another one for your book
Wakien 1:2 "Verily I say unto ye...If ye must kill for your God, he is a piss-poor excuse of a God and hath no power."
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #108
171. Hubert 1:3
"JHC is coming and BOY is he pissed off!"

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Joey Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
40. Rush Limbaugh is on Armed Forces Radio
Now this.

What the fuck kind of country have we become?

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Crowman1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:33 PM
Original message
You know when I was in Iraq, we never bothered to listen to that fat fuck.
Oddly enough, the most requested song on Armed Forces Radio in 2005 was an anti-bush/war song called "B.Y.O.B." by System Of A Down.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #40
183. They also have a lot of NPR...
so get a grip on yourself.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #183
207. NPR changed a lot after 2000.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #40
222. All we had was NPR and such for a long time
Then one day a bunch of letters to the editor in Stars & Stripes started showing up with military dittoheads demanding his show be aired.

It looked like an organized effort. I never listened to him so I don't know if he did it on the air in the US.

Rush is the #1 talk show in America and willing to be put on AFRTS.

AFRTS had no politically-neutral argument against it that Republicans, a good chunk of their audience, would buy.

They had to put him on or face further allegations of bias. AFRTS prides itself in being unbiased. It is an extension of the fact that the military should have no bias in politics (there are strict rules in place for the conduct of soldiers and officers in political situations).

So they had to put him on.

From what I remember they do not broadcast the full daily show.
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #222
272. They only broadcast the first hour
There are only two AFN radio channels available--AFN AM and AFN FM. They have to play something for everyone in those 48 hours of daily programming, so they can't afford to monopolize the airwaves for three hours with one program. Besides, they have to have SOME time to put the propaganda in.
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santamargarita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
41. Goddamn Christian Fascists!
:puke:
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
44. More Republicon occultism
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 12:21 PM by SpiralHawk
to support their fear-and-hate crazed Apocalypse Crusade.

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gabbleratchet Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #44
95. Iraq Vets for Congress
This is what those Vets want to push...a christian crusade. For the folks in Wilmington, NC, Will Breazeale is one of these types and he needs to be defeated. Contact me if you need info on defeating this wacko.
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #95
152. Oh my...thanks for that link
I don't think there'll be that big of a problem, since the 7th CD seems to like Mike McIntyre just fine. But his Issues page is a hoot...containing such wonderful things as this description of what the Unfair Tax will do...

"1) IT FORCES CRIMINALS TO ANNY UP."

No, I didn't make that shit up. Anny. I figure any teabagger who doesn't even know the word "ante" or who can't use the word "pay" instead needs to keep his ass in Wilmington where it belongs.
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gabbleratchet Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #152
163. That's your district!
I would love the press in your town to get a hold on some hypocrisy tidbits about Breazeale. For one, he wants to prosecute employers for hiring aliens yet his Campaign Director, his girlfriend, has had an illegal alien maid for years. He loves to gamble so I am surprised he can't spell ante. It's a sure bet he doesn't pay taxes on his winnings. His Campaign Director girlfriend lives in a half million dollar home while collecting unemployment benefits and government medical cost subsidies(thanks to Obama) while he bashes big government programs that help people in need. I can go on and on.
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #163
172. I'm in the 8th, not the 7th
The dividing line between 7th CD and 8th CD runs through the middle of town, and I live on the 8th CD side of the line. So my representative is Larry Kissell, not Mike McIntyre.
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ihamer10 Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-15-10 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #95
357. Non combat iraq vets for congress
interesting, yeah this guy is such a joke, i read the other day that he said he "bleeds the fair tax." What does that even mean??
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
46. Praise the Lord and AIM the ammunition?
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
47. Were these references part of the contract, or is it something that the manufacturer did?
Killing for Jesus isn't new, of course, but this should require the manufacturer to be held for breach of contract.

Gun nuts and bible thumpers are often the same people. The religion of peace is really the religion of rest in peace.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #47
215. Some Christian extremists are gun nuts, so the religion is murderous. Really?
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 11:58 PM by No Elephants
With logic like that....
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Mad_Dem_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
48. Bible verses on weapons?!
No words... :wow:
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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. It is actually on the scopes
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #54
84. You mean when they look thru the scope . . . they can see them????
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 01:33 PM by defendandprotect
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frog92969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #84
99. Aim Men!
:puke:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #99
124. I join you in disgust . . .
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 04:01 PM by defendandprotect
:puke:
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #124
184. Perhaps you should actually read the article...
and get ahold of your hysteria.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #184
190. It's a US miliary contract . . . ??? It should be free from religious inscription....
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 10:01 PM by defendandprotect
The psychology behind such a lunatic link between guns and "Jesus" should be

decisively broken.

And the military should not be linked with such violent and concepts.

Someone actually dreamed this up --

And someone is buying it --

It should be us!

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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #84
141. No - they are inscribed on the outside of the scopes
But I'm sure Jesus is thrilled by a sight being inscribed in his name that has a human being in the red dot or the cross hairs of a soldier about to pull the trigger to kill that human being. WWJS.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #84
232. Looks like they put them in the mold
So when the plastic (or maybe aluminum) is injected into it, the letters are right there in plain view.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
49. John 11:35 -- Jesus Wept
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
50. "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!"
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 12:35 PM by Hubert Flottz
I'll bet JC would shoot "Expert"

Say Amen Somebody!

Hubert 1:1, "And an AWOL shall lead you."
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #50
69. Hubert 1:1, good stuff. Someone should tell the apocalyptos
this is why Jesus isn't coming back.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #69
173. We need somebody that can part shit creek ASAP!
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #173
252. .
:yourock:
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #69
218. You beat me to it. Why would anyone who taught the things attributed to Jesus
want to be around perversions like this?
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #218
253. The Christian church in America is in dire need of a new reformation.
With the internet, maybe it is even possible.

Love, it's not just for Haiti's survivors.

And it pains me to say this for those who might misread what I wrote, I in no way intend to take anything away from the help we must provide. We tore the country down and have the obligation to help them rebuild and keep the neocon and neoliberal vultures from circling.

The weird thing is we can't seem to talk about loving one another except during emergencies lest the rightwingers and other troglodytes scream and rend garments. Those folks and their ideas propagated must be met with tough love and forcefully so.
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Zoeisright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
52. Who Would Jesus Kill?
That is just plain sick.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
53. Have "always" added these references? Religion vs mental health -- !!!
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 12:47 PM by defendandprotect
I hear "Jesus" is suing . . . !!!
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
57. Sniper Jesus anyone?


:eyes:
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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
58. The Family scores another juicy contract. nt
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
59. This just makes me ill.
The enormity of the hypocrisy is astounding.
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
61. Wow...
I mean, just, wow..

To think anyone running a company would think this was something to do is unimaginable on almost any level.
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fitonkpo Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
62. Re: are conservatives simply oblivious to irony and hypocrisy?!
EOM
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #62
70. or immune to shaming, ends justifies the means every time
If the means are ironic or hypocritical, oh well.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
63. Sick fucks.
Woody Allen was right. If Jesus Christ came back to the Earth today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #63
72. I'd like to think he would make them an offer they couldn't refuse.
Godfather Jesus
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SirRevolutionary Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
64. Armaments chapter II, verses 9 to 21
And Saint Antioch raised the holy hand grenade up on high saying "Oh Lord, bless this thy hand grenade that with it, thou may bloweth thine enemies to tiny bits".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ioXrZT9Ric
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #64
224. Please stop me
Or we will have a Monty Python sub-thread that goes on forever.

"Then lobbest thou thy bullet towards thy foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."
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SirRevolutionary Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #224
229. After finding the youtube clip I made a mental note
to watch the whole movie again :P too late for me, now it's a must after reading about the fundies and their holy weaponry.
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
68. Remember to think about Jesus when you're shooting that Muslim infidel
Someone please tell me this is a sick joke
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #68
77. Me too. It defies believability, fundies from another universe.
When did America begin going insane?
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
71. Jesus gave us arms for a reason
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #71
78. .
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
73. K&R
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #73
80. Is that Elysia chlorotica? Awesome critter.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #80
87. Yes. :o)
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DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
74. i don't think jesus would approve of this.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
75. Blasphemous at the very least.
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 01:19 PM by caseymoz
That's only one of a dozen things wrong with this. Is it supposed to bless the soul of the guy firing the gun? Bless the guy in the crosshairs about to die? Bless the arms manufacturer? How is this prayer supposed to make that act morally any better?

This isn't Christian. This is some kind of tortured perversion.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
76. Oh my .......that is simply insane and terrible!
How in the world did that slide for so long? Who the hell is running this country>?
What kind of religious nuts kill for Jesus? This has to stop!
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gabbleratchet Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #76
100. Vote against religious nuts
Iraq War Vets for Congress are the kind you are talking about. They go out and try to convert Iraqi citizens and firmly believe that are crusaders. If you have one in your district, vote against them.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #100
104. The U.S. Airforce is also firmly in the hands of the fundies....
Rumers are that if you are not a fundie...you will be run out of the service or at the very least..never be promoted.
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #76
155. How it slid for so long
They worked the Scripture into the serial number. It's probably something like "ACOG121M16:3125LV18:22." If you looked at that long strung-out thing you're not necessarily going to think, "there's a Scriptural passage at the end of it." (If you're the troop with that sight screwed onto your rifle you'll probably think "I have to memorize all THAT?") Plus the book is abbreviated; if you're a fundamentalist you'd immediately know JN is short for John and LK short for Luke, but if you don't live with your nose in the Bible you'll miss it.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #155
223. "Probably" does not tell me anything. I'd like to see what it looks like.
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #223
263. Happy to help
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 09:11 AM by jmowreader
Go to http://www.trijicon.com/pdfs/ACOG_Specs.pdf and turn to page 4. There you will see a picture of the right side of the ACOG sight in question.

The serial number on this one is ACOG6X48PS627N. And yes, there is a Psalm 62.7--With God is my salvation and my honor. The rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God. If you hadn't been told this company puts Scripture in its serial numbers, you wouldn't suspect it was there--lots of military equipment has serial numbers from hell. Pretty damn sneaky.

(On edit: DU's smiley thing and Scriptural passages don't get along.)
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
79. That is sooooooo ironic, because what they are actually doing is spreading DARKNESS.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
81. There are no words....




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wysimdnwyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
83. And they wonder why people question their religous beliefs
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #83
88. .... and they seem to have control over our military . . . !!!!!
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
86. As one of the few Quakers who is also a Second Amendment activist...
...I just have to say that this revelation has left me with a sick, hollow feeling in the pit of my stomach. Words fail to express my quiet sorrow and outrage at this perversion of the Gospel.

It is perhaps fitting that this injustice was exposed to daylight on a day we remember the work and sacrifice of Martin Luther King, Jr.

Trijicon, you just lost a potential customer. Aimpoint and EOTech, here I come...

:grr:
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dencol Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
91. Demand refunds
For every piece of equipment purchased, and prosecute the leadership of that company to the fullest extent of the law. Christians like this have the blood of our troops on their hands, and it must be stopped. I cannot think of a bigger threat to our country than organized religion.
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #91
174. Oh, please
The founder of Trijicon, Glyn Bindon, has always put those verses on his optics. The company continued the tradition after he died. They've been doing in for 29 years. There is nothing illegal about it. If the military doesn't want the quotes, it is their responsibility to specify their exclusion and absorb the cost of having new casts made that exclude it. I want our troops to have the best available equipment, not the most politically correct equipment.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #174
220. Politically correct has nothing to do with this. It's the Constitution and military regs.
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 12:26 AM by No Elephants
And the safety of our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. "politically correct" also has nothing to do with whether we are spending tax dollars to send our troops into Iraq and Afghanistan with bible verses inscribed on their weapons.

And the inscriptions don't make the equipment "the best available, so that has nothing to do with the price of tea, either.

As far as the incriptions being there solely as a matter of tradition, bs. Don't know from where you and the other posters trying to pass this off as meaningless tradition are getting that, but it is not from the article linked in the OP. The company rep said the issue is being raised by people who are "not Christian." To quote from the article:





"The company's vision is described on its Web site: "Guided by our values, we endeavor to have our products used wherever precision aiming solutions are required to protect individual freedom."

"We believe that America is great when its people are good," says the Web site. "This goodness has been based on Biblical standards throughout our history, and we will strive to follow those morals."
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #174
243. These codes were SECRET and PUT ON ILLEGALLY
GET THE FUCKING REFUND and PROSECUTE!!!

And YOU need to get a BRAIN - moran!!!

Now go back to freak repuke...
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #243
312. Calm down
Before you stroke out...

The shorthand notation of bible verses have been on the optics for over 2 decades. They were not put on there illegally, nor are they hidden in some hard to reach place. My husband's ACOG has ACOG4X32JN8:12 clearly inscribed on the side. You don't need a magnifying glass to see it. The manufacturer wasn't doing something sneaky to proselytize to the military. My husband, an atheist, didn't even know what the hell it represented and now that he knows, doesn't give a shit. If the DOD wants a special run made with scripture free optics, they're going to have to pay more money or they can just scratch it off. It's not Trijicon's responsibility to make sure you aren't offended by a JN12 reference. They sold a legal product and the DOD purchased it, evidently without asking what those numbers meant. Now if you really hate our soldiers, you can go ahead and suggest that every ACOG be immediately ripped off the rails of every rifle and our soldiers can go back to using iron sights. Somehow, I don't think they'd agree with you.




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dencol Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #312
333. I know the source of our disagreement.
It rests with your statement that "The manufacturer wasn't doing something sneaky to proselytize to the military." If that were true, why are the messages coded so well that the professionals who use them didn't even know what the hell it meant? Now that the cat is out of the bag, it is truly an outrage.
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #333
334. Have you ever seen an ACOG?
Held one in your hand? There isn't ROOM to inscribe entire sections of the NT.

What appears is ACOG + the type of sight + a reference to specific scripture.

ACOG
4X32
JN8:12


If either of us had given a damn, we could have googled the last and would have immediately seen it was a reference to scripture. It didn't fly out at us because neither of us is a Christian.

If they'd inscribed it under the mount or had placed it inside, that would have been "sneaky".
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #312
342. They're "hidden" because they're in the fucking fundy CODE that ONLY fundies will "know"...
The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of the population DO NOT FUCKING CARE OR KNOW WHAT THE FUCKING "CODE" MEANS!!!

So it IS "hidden"!!!

And it IS ILLEGAL to put RELILIOUS CRAP on GOVERNMENT property, as the other posters have CLEARLY pointed out!!!

Fucking CLUELESS moran!!!
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #342
348. I would appreciate it if you would
Stop calling me a "Fucking CLUELESS moran!!!" particularly, when you are not in possession of the facts.

It is not illegal for Trijicon to put a scripture reference on their products. The scopes that are sold to the military were purchased under a NDI/COTS contract. They are commercial off the shelf optics you or I could purchase if we were so inclined. They are not military specific. If the DOD had done due diligence, they would have asked what the purpose of the numbers/letters were and could have opted out or contracted for a specific run using new forms that excluded the scripture reference. They didn't and that is not Trijicon's fault.

As you so belligerently pointed out, the majority of the population doesn't know or care what those 5 or 6 figures means. They have no power over the optics, nor the soldier using them. They only have meaning if you grant them meaning.
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #91
351. I just looked in mine
And I saw a cross !!



..tag for orgasmic moonbattery
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
92. And that's when Jesus said "fuck it, I quit."
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Rebubula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
93. Ahhh...Religion
Follow our religion or we will kill you from long distances...
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
94. WWJS?
What would Jesus Shoot?
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frog92969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
96. $825 per sight?
I guess money's no object when it's not yours.
Our overlords have never been thrifty.

As for our religio-fascist military...this is nothing.
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SomeGuyInEagan Donating Member (872 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #96
138. $100 for the sight ... $795 for the fancy inscription
Isn't there something somewhere in the Bible about greed?
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frog92969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #138
156. That part's been redacted
due to national insecurity.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #138
230. Depends upon how you interpret it. Maybe which translation, too.
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 12:58 AM by No Elephants
There are definitely things about charity and giving to the poor, but that's a slightly different take on the subject.

The bit about a rich man having a harder time getting into heaven than a camel has going through the eye of a needle does not, IMO, say the rich are doomed to hell. Rather, it's more like "You can't take it with you," IMO.

As I said. Depends on your interpretation, which tends to depend upon your worldview.
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #96
273. That's less than you or I would pay
Cabela's sells these for between $899 and $1579 depending on the crosshairs you get--the military is probably buying the "red donut" version that sells for $1149.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #273
298. Well, the bulk sale helps the cost -
after all, selling 800,000 scopes to the Marines when probably fewer than 20,000 Marines will ever be issued a scoped rifle at any given time... Even allowing for damage and replacements, that's a SHITLOAD of equipment. 4 scopes for EACH Marine.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
97. The question is are the references on *all* their sights?
Or just on the military ones. The article doesn't say.

-Hoot
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kgnu_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
102. It has been like this since the beginning of this country ...

...

Let us then turn to "reality itself": the "idea" of America from its
earliest days.

The inspirational phrase "city on a hill" was coined by John Winthrop in
1630, borrowing from the Gospels, and outlining the glorious future of a
new nation "ordained by God." One year earlier his Massachusetts Bay
Colony established its Great Seal. It depicts an Indian with a scroll
coming out of his mouth. On it are the words "Come over and help us."
The British colonists were thus benevolent humanists, responding to the
pleas of the miserable natives to be rescued from their bitter pagan fate.

The Great Seal is a graphic representation of "the idea of America,"
from its birth. It should be exhumed from the depths of the psyche and
displayed on the walls of every classroom. It should certainly appear in
the background of all of the Kim il-Sung-style worship of the savage
murderer and torturer Ronald Reagan, who blissfully described himself as
the leader of a "shining city on the hill" while orchestrating some of
the more ghastly crimes of his years in office, leaving a hideous legacy.


...

The Torture Memos
Noam Chomsky
chomsky.info, May 24, 2009

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090524.htm
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #102
255. True, American empire has always sewn death and destruction but
it has had its good moments too. A couple quotes from our greatest comedians.

America is a Nation with a mission - and that mission comes from our most basic beliefs. We have no desire to dominate, no ambitions of empire. Our aim is a democratic peace - a peace founded upon the dignity and rights of every man and woman. GWB

Americans never fought for empire, for territory, for dominance -- but many, many Americans gave their lives for freedom. Bill Clinton
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #255
299. You left the asterisk out of Clinton's quote:
Americans never fought for empire, for territory, for dominance*-- but many, many Americans gave their lives for freedom. Bill Clinton

*Other than in Central America, the Caribbean, the Hawaiian Islands, the Philippines, and all of the continental US west of the Alleghenies.
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
103. what came to my mind when I read this was
just exactly what would Jesus have thought of these assholes doing this IN JESUS'S NAME?

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choie Donating Member (899 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
105. so, now that it's been exposed
IS IT GOING TO FUCKING STOP?????????
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #105
231. Most likely not.
The company's contract has just been renewed for $660 million.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #231
300. Military equipment contracts can, and do, specify that such things
will not be on the equipment they purchase. Seeing as how it is a violation of church/state, it should (actually, must) demand the company re-organize their serial number system to exclude these references.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
106. How the hell is this legal!?!
:grr:
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tomm2thumbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
112. after a kill, do they wash down their lunch with an In-N-Out Burger shake?

I'm sure you've all seen the bottom of their cups...

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BrightKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #112
180. Jesus probably would eat at In-N-Out Burger.
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 08:57 PM by BrightKnight
In any case they treat their employees well and they make a good burger.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #180
233. And your basis for that supposition is what, exactly?
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 01:16 AM by No Elephants


Did they have cows in the Middle East 2000 years ago? Is Jesus a vegetarian, as Seventh Day Adventists might believe? Might he become a vegan if he listened to PETA?

Or, is it that using cites to Bible verses as a means of seeming pious and selling burgers to neo fundies would be so appealing to Jesus that he would overcome his preference for lamb (or chick peas)?

I can see the Gideons sincerely believing that someone might actually convert on the basis of reading a Bible left in hotel room drawer. But, putting John 3:16 on the bottom of a cup is going to turn an atheist, a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, etc. into a Christian?

Sure, right after an emoticon of the Easter Bunny gives the altar call.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
113. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
frog92969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #113
135. No
He'd help nail himself to the cross.
O8)
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
114. From their site... "About us"
Evidently this has been on all their products since inception?

From their web site, under "about us"...



TRIJICON'S VISION
Guided by our values, we endeavor to have our products used wherever precision aiming solutions are required to protect individual freedom.

TRIJICON'S MISSION
Guided by our values, we will continue to be a leader in the design and manufacture of high quality, innovative sighting systems for use by Law Enforcement, Military and Individual customers.

TRIJICON'S VALUES
Honesty/Integrity
We will be honest, dependable, trustworthy and fair towards each other, our employees, our customers and our suppliers.
Teamwork/Dedication
We will work together as employees, customers and suppliers, valuing the unique contributions of each, to produce optimal aiming solutions.
Customers
We desire long-term relationships with our customers. We will listen and continually improve our products to meet their needs.
Quality/Innovation
We will strive to attain a zero-defect rate in all our processes. Our products will be made to maximize durability and service life. We will continue to lead our industry by encouraging creative solutions.
Morality
We believe that America is great when its people are good. This goodness has been based on biblical standards throughout our history and we will strive to follow those morals.
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greengestalt Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
115. Seperation of Church and State
They are doing business for the government, they shouldn't be putting such messages on equipment. Stating the obvious, I guess.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
118. Wow, this'll go over well in majority-Muslim countries that have bought the sights.
.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #118
276. Why is that? Muslims do accept the Bible. So, why, please. /nt
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #276
278. Muslims DO NOT accept the divinity of Jesus.
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 10:29 AM by burning rain
For Muslims, Jesus was a mortal man with NO share of divinity.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #278
282. One does not have to accept divinity in order to accept the Bible.
So, again, a Bible passage reference should not create a problem as your apparent "this'll go over well" intended sarcasm would say.

And, thanks for responding.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #282
283. The Bible references included ones where Jesus is reverenced as divine.
Think about it. For Muslims to accept that Christians use crosses as their religious symbols and have them on their churches, and tolerate it, is one thing, to have little crosses stamped on military equipment that they use would be quite another.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #283
289. But, they've already accepted the Bible, all verses.
They can see it as interpretational, or that it refers to just another book under their own religion, and that people, being people, can quote from whatever book they want.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #289
290. You really think Muslims will see it that way?
More likely they'll see it as a sign Americans are fighting a religious war.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #290
294. It's their own religion that accepts the book, they accept their own religion.
None of this uproar shows itself emanating from Muslims.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #294
302. Muslims certainly do not perceive the Gospels, the Old Testament, & the Torah....
as part of Islam as they do the Koran and hadiths. Muslims do not use the Gospels, the Old Testament, or the Torah in their religious services or devotions. You may as well tell Muslims that they should be glad to use weapons made in Israel, and stamped with the star of David, because Islam enjoins them to respect "people of the Book" (i.e. adherents of Abrahamic monotheistic religions, e.g. Christians and Jews).
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #302
304. Muslims do see the OT and NT as a part of Islam.
Muslims do not see the OT and NT as they see the Koran, just as Christians consider the OT a part of Christianity, but not seeing the OT as the NT.

Were the references OT, that should not be a problem either.

However, a newer symbol, such as Star of David would not be seen as a part of the accepted books. I have to call bad-analogy on that one.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #304
309. Muslims in fact see the NT & OT as parts of an alien faith tradition.
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 02:53 PM by burning rain
They certainly do not accept the OT as part of their faith as Christians do, nor do they use the NT or OT in their religious practices, despite Muhammad's respectful words about earlier revelations (Torah, OT, NT--often explained as an attempt early in his career to win the goodwill of Christians and Jews so as to make it easier to convert them). I suggest you ask a few mainstream Muslims what they think of this, as opposed to swallowing the happy-sappy interfaith line of people who are not devout in the first place. Jesus plays his own honored role in Muslim theology, being a mortal man and prophet who will yet return to earth to judge the living and the dead, but to see him reverenced on the weaponry of a predominantly Christian country, and one involved in much conflict with Muslims, is another matter entirely. The Trijicon people are stirring trouble that they just don't need to.

See how many Muslim clerics issue fatwas saying that this OK. My bet is, zero.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #309
313. Alien faith tradition of a prophet who will yet return.
Alien, that word, you did not hear it or see it from any Muslim, did you?

Throw in another word, next post. Offer a longer description. Just because you throw in an extra word does not mean that any Muslim has been upset by this. Muslims may not quote the OT or NT at every service, but they have quoted it as almost any minister might take a quote from some book other than Lady Chatterley's Lover. It's not offensive to them. (Yes, I have spoken to Muslims who have told me this. Well, not the quip about Lady Chatterley of course.)

I hope that this whole thing is not here to rile Muslims where they were not already riled.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #313
327. How can you imagine Muslims would be happy...
knowing soldiers of a predominantly Christian country are going into battle with them with references to Jesus' name and sayings on their weapons? The fact that Christians regard Jesus as God, and have historically waged war on Muslims in his name, changes everything. Citing Jesus does not signify the same thing to Muslims and Christians.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #327
341. Happy? The model number reference on any gun near me would be the least of my worries.
How many Muslims weigh into this argument. So far, none.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #341
346. Those who have taken up guns against Americans are already enemies.
Edited on Wed Jan-20-10 10:58 AM by burning rain
So, "least of my worries" makes some sense there. But, the suggestion of the Bible refs that Jesus is helping Christian American soldiers shoot Muslims (or whatever other enemy) in low light, and that Christian American soldiers are waging war for Jesus, can only further antagonize the local Muslim populace in places like Afghanistan, where our troops are better off with the Muslim populace less antagonized rather than more. The fact that no Muslims so far as you or I know have weighed in on this is not terribly salient; what is salient is that this is a needless provocation and one that must end.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #278
323. In general, Christians do not accept it, they "believe" it.
I think there exists a distinction though it may be subtle.

Some Christians are not even convinced Jesus existed.

How's that for a diet of worms?
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #276
301. No, they accept that the bible is a holy book, but that it is flawed.
They do not accept that it is correct and is to be equated with the koran.

The verse citing is proselytizing, and they do not accept xtian proselytization.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #301
307. And, as an accepted holy book, passages can be accepted.
One can see all things as flawed, as we ourselves accept that we ourselves are flawed, therefore even if we view the perfect, our perception of the perfect can be flawed as well.

As far as proselytizing goes, one can refer to simply living and breathing near someone as proselytizing because they just know you're an American Christian, and I hope neither of us wants any of our troops to stop living and breathing just because they're near a Muslim. I must suggest that embedding a somewhat obtuse code into an obscurely placed part number would hardly force someone to convert.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #307
311. Wrong. It is ANOTHER'S holy book, and to be respected as such,
but it is in no way a part of the 'canon' of Islam. Any parts of the bible that Islam uses were re-written and included in the Koran.

And your definition of proselytizing just proves you are a moron.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #311
315. Between canon and another's holy book lies much room for degree.
If I were truly a moron, I guess I wouldn't be hurt by being called one. Could be true then.

Although, I have to wonder why someone would call someone else a moron considering that if they were correct, a moron wouldn't know what to do with the expression anyway, would they? A conundrum.

I could certainly understand why you would not elaborate on what parts of my definition were wrong, or offer your own definition. Perhaps it would leave you open to a return salvo of hyperbole.

I wish you well, just the same. Glad you enjoined me. Good day.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #315
316. Proselytize:
1 - to try to convert (a person), esp. to one's religion 2 - to persuade to do or join something, esp. by offering an inducement.

Funny, Webster says nothing about 'standing there and breathing' as being a factor in proselytizing.

Re 'canon' the term is obviously not applicable to Islam, as it is particular to the xtian faith (which is why I put it in quotes) but the definition of canon is: the books of the bible officially accepted by a church or religious body...

The xtian bible is to be respected by Islam, as being one of the Abrahmic religions, but the bible is in NO WAY 'accepted by' the Islamic faith as being correct.

And if you don't understand the difference I can only conclude that you are either a moron, or are being deliberately obtuse. And as deliberate obtuseness is a moronic stance, I stand by what I said.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #316
317. Then explain using your definition how these embedded #s proselytize.
1 - to try to convert (a person), esp. to one's religion 2 - to persuade to do or join something, esp. by offering an inducement.


Oooo, by looking at the model number they will be induced to parse it and succumb to look at a book, perhaps not just any book, not the Koran, but what, not Lady Chatterley, hmmmm, yes, a Bible, and unravel the code to a name that is... that is... that is... close, then a number, and number, and, viola, they'll SEE THE LIGHT.

Is something you understand.

Yet, one of our muscle-bound boys standing and breathing and looking good making coverts of the local women...

Is something you don't understand.

While our boys are projecting America, what are you projecting when calling names?
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #317
318. I never claimed that these magic symbols 'proselytize'.
What they are, is just that - magic symbols. It is exactly the same as painting a cross on your crusader shield. It doesn't really 'do' anything any more than the murmured 'Allah akbar' does anything before the suicide bomber blows himself up - it is the gun or bomb that does the work.

But it DOES confirm in the minds of the enemy that it is a religious war, that it is an attack not just on their selves and their homes, but on their very way of life.

"Yet, one of our muscle-bound boys standing and breathing and looking good making coverts of the local women..."

You are quite right - that is a sick and bizarre thought and I don't understand it. I don't know what the fuck you think you mean, and have no idea how it pertains to your claim that Muslims are really Christians at heart - just a little different, like Mormons.

Your lack on knowledge and understanding is astounding.



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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #318
321. "The verse citing is proselytizing" #301, L I A R - U
At least my lack of knowledge doesn't fail to go back a few posts.

"Muslims are really Christians at heart" Where did you get that? No, not from me.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #321
337. You are conflating two different topics into a single argument.
1) You are saying that the christian bible is a part of their religious canon - which is a lie. Because is it a part of their religious canon (lie) bible verses to them is not proselytizing. To which I say, bible verses are NOT part of their canon, and any use of christian bible verses would be prostelitizing.

Which has nothing to do with

2) separation of church and state, violated by inscribing bible references on US government issue material. Such inscriptions are proselytizing, but not to the people being shot at, but to the people doing the shooting - after all, someone a quarter mile away is unlikely to see the inscription. Technically, it is probably not proselytizing so much as sharing a secret code with believers - the fundie crusaders who are infiltrating our military

"Muslims are really Christians at heart" Where did you get that? No, not from me.

Well, yes, I did get if from you, from your repeated insistence that Islam is a direct descendent of Christianity, and believes the Christian bible - which, if true, would make them just as Christian as the Mormons, who also have a newer book that is founded in the christian bible. Such a statement is abusrd, of course, and YOU were the person making it.

Try to keep up.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #337
340. Do you think you fool people with simple assertions?
Are you trying to fool other readers, me, or yourself?

You brought the concept of canon into the thread. I only responded with canon as being an endpoint (yours) to point out to you that there was a lot of room for my point as a matter of degree between the end points, not on the end points.

Neither you or I ever even mentioned separation of church and state until this very sentence. Yet, you say I conflated it with the canon idea!

I hope you're drinking or toking or on something you can drop.
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felinetta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
119. No surprise. Their God loves violence. I am sick of all the religion bullshit. Wake up sheeple.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #119
234. Jesus loves violence? Really? Apparently, no one has a monopoly on bs.
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 01:22 AM by No Elephants
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #234
343. Well, if you Believe His Words he did
Edited on Wed Jan-20-10 05:50 AM by panzerfaust
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Matthew 10:34

... he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luke 22:36


These recommendations of the sword made by one manifestation of a three-part God made flesh, are certainly tame when compared with the savage ravings of His Dad as reported in The Bible - what Christers call, condescendingly, "The Old Testament."

Yes, I do think one can claim that the God of Abraham is one of the most savage, intolerant, and blood-thirsty of the tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of gods imagined by mankind.
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Swede Atlanta Donating Member (906 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
120. Sad but not unexpected.............
And many wonder why Muslims consider this a holy war, a Jihad from the Islamists and a Crusade from the Christians. This is the same thing as a suicide bomber crying out Allah Akhbar as he detonates himself in 1000 pieces. It is making this a war between competing religions rather than a war between two visions for the world - one dominated by Islamic extremists in the form a Sharia theocracy and the other a secular, progressive society that respects women, minorities and provides for the free exercise of religion.

These weapons manufacturers should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. The more that we do to make this a religious war, something that Obama for all his short-comings, has fought against, the more entrenched the conflict becomes.
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CrunchMaster Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
121. $660 million contract? Watchout Trijicon, another 6 and you've got the mark of the Beast!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mHe6FMs46o

Anti-Christ is alive and well and hiding under the cloak of Christianity itself doing exactly OPPOSITE of what Christ instructed Christians should be doing:

Matthew 26:52
"Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."



Idiots.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #121
148. "...for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."
Huh. Don't say nuttin' 'bout guns. So there.

Can't they just claim the letters and numbers refer to something else?
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #121
251. There's "Good News" we can use!
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
122. America's Messianic [Christian] War Cult
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OllieLotte Donating Member (495 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
125. Hallehujah. n/t
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
126. ha! looks like terrorist are not the only ones doing the invocation of God...
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colsohlibgal Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
128. Just Plain Wrong!
Religion has to be driven out of the government and the military and the sooner the better. The religious fanatics inside the US scare me more than the ones outside the US.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
131. BLASPHEMOUS!
committing blasphemy of His peaceful name is something they will answer for. Most people believe in a 'god', and the ones that believe Jesus is the Savior, this is disgusting for most of us. That wicked element of society that is "pro-Christian pro-war" is a really dangerous group - for mixing religion with war ends up with killing being considered an honorable action...

Jesus Wept.
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
134. Not with my tax dollars. Get that propaganda off my weapons!
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
136. For crying out loud, how freaking stupid can any idea get!
This is suppose to make us appear all special and such I guess, unless of course you are a Muslim referencing your religion while you kill people.

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nilram Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
139. Sick. These people are sick.
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
140. Because I guess stamping it with "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" would cause a bit of confusion.

:eyes:
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VermeerLives Donating Member (287 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #140
168. Actually, it's "Thou shalt not murder"
There's a difference. Murder is the intentional killing of an innocent human being. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, and the Hebrew distinguishes between "killing" and murder. Even in our own law, as you well know, there are different levels of punishment for killing someone. An accidental killing, for example, cannot be equated with premeditated murder or manslaughter.

When reading the Bible, it is a good idea to refer back to the original languages so that you get the full (and correct) meaning of the words.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #168
175. How convenient!
That is, unless you get into definitions of words like "intentional", "accidental", and "innocence".
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #175
194. Certainly some killings are justifiable. It would only make sense to make a distinction.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #194
201. Yes, but self defense has been twisted to include killing people for what they could do because
innocence has been reduced to a quality that applies only to fetuses.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #201
211. The law should give the beneift of the doubt to the victim instead of the criminal.
Determining whether or not some poses a significant threat in a split second isn't easy even for highly trained people.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #168
350. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Therellas Donating Member (216 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
142. WHO IS ACTUALLY SURPRISED?
i mean really.
we have christian mega-churches ON POST.
if by now you don't know .....
there is a war happening here AND there.
if people who love PEACE actually want this country to run differently ....how we ultimately avoid violence i do not know.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
143. Jesus approved weaponry....what a concept!
O8) :nuke:
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Swagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
145. but God IS on our side....isn't he/she ?
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PacerLJ35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
149. Wow, I never noticed it on my M4...
I don't think anyone else knew of it either.

I agree the company shouldn't have been putting stuff like that on a government weapon, but I don't think the US military was trying to spread religion. That's a stretch, seeing as though everyone I was deployed with to Baghdad had an M4 and one of those sights, and no one knew about this (or at least no one ever said anything about it). First time I heard this...
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Ticonderoga Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
150. Boy that story has a
creep factor of about 10.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
153. Doesnt make a fat rats ass.
as long as the sight supplied provide an excellent sight picture of the target to be killed.
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #153
170. Yep
Earlier today I took my husband's Bushmaster out of the safe and sure enough, his ACOG has the bible verse number in very small print. He's had it for about 8 years and never knew. He's an atheist by the way, and when I told him about it he said "I don't give a shit if it's got the entire New Testament inscribed on it, Trijicon makes the best combat scope there is".
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #153
277. I can't see that is should matter either. /nt
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
159. The Christian notion of God is so multi-purpose.
On one hand full of love and puppy dogs, and on the other, a force that fuels unbridled destruction and vengeance without pity.

That's what's so dangerous. The Christian "God" can be whatever anyone wants it to be. And, it's demonstrably an effective tool of control and remover of culpability that's abused by many, often time to deadly ends.

And the example in the OP is sick.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #159
248. That's why Christianity
is the perfect religion for politicians.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
160. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
kgnu_fan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
161. knr for education
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
162. Who Would Jesus Shoot
and kill, eh?

This is sooooooooo wrong on so many levels. I think someone should sue the bastard. I'm not sure for what, exactly, but he needs to be stripped of the money made off of his sales and his company taken away.

What an f'ing idiot!

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
165. Think Indian Mutiny-
Great idea there - guns with xtian verses given to Muslims.
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PacerLJ35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #165
166. Exactly...
Although these weapons aren't necessarily given to muslims...but Arabs and Afghans could interpret it to be some kind of conspiracy to convert them (they are already pretty prone to believing conspiracy theories).
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #166
236. On Nightline tonight, they said the scopes were used on weapons
given to train troops in Iraq. I'm not sure if they meant Iraqi troops in the alliance or our troops.

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline
It is called "God and Guns"
The newscast is worth watching.

Either way, the coded message on the scopes is against General Order #1.

Another important thing is that the meaning behind the messages on the scopes endangers our troops, because it spreads the idea that it is a Christian Crusade against Muslims.

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bullwinkle428 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
177. Rachel - like I need another excuse to love you more each & every day!!!
I can't be the only one that just heard her tear this contractor a new asshole over this!

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya:
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #177
187. And it was smarmy, snide and hyperbolic.
Just what we need more of. :eyes:
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captain jack Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
178. I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. n/t
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #178
227. You beat me to it, cap.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
185. The biblical references are to "light" which is critical to these optics.

Some models of Trijicon collect the light and display a reticle without batteries.

It should be easy enough to get a copy of this contract or call for equipment and see if there is anything in these documents that prohibited religious text references.

Even as an atheist, I'd love to have these optics on my rifles because they are that good. I'd prefer them without such references and I prefer that that the military not sport these as official equipment, but if the .mil ordered them as is, then so be it.



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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #185
188. They are COTS items...
not a specific item one-timed for the military.

The manufactured hysteria is... hysterical. :eyes:
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #188
256. Indeed. We shall however lap it up.
The new reality seems to be the MSM, who we never believed about anything for 8 years, now dishes us up red meat and we fly into a tizzy.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
186. Since when did Jesus say it was OK to kill the people of the Arab nations?
or is this just another convoluted fucking distortion of Christianity by people who just like to kill other human beings?
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Spryboy Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
189. This is just vile...
...on so many levels.
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Mendocino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
191. "If Jesus came back today and saw what was
being done in his name, he couldn't stop from throwing up."

Woody Allen
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dashrif Donating Member (353 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
193. Trijicon's
Main product is tritium night sights and they make the best reflex sights bar-none also the ACOG is the best JOE proof scope anywhere. All the bible passages have one word in common and it is not Jesus it is light so they are saying is our night sights light up the dark
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kjones Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
195. Forget gunpowder...The power of christ propels you!!! n/t
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mn9driver Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
197. It's just like the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch; except, um, really sick.
...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And the Lord did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu... ... And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceedest on to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it." Amen.
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Joe Bacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
200. Wow, Praise The Lord and Pass The Ammunition.
This is beyond sick.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
205. My Trijicon slant pro 8 tritium night sights don't have this shit on them
unless it's microscopic.

So ' 'Always' Added New Testament References' is spurious.
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dashrif Donating Member (353 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #205
214. I
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 11:47 PM by dashrif
Think it is only on the reflex scopes


Edit: for spelling silly goose that I am
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #205
235. Whether they've always added it is not relevant to whether they should
do so when supply the U.S. government at taxpayer expense anyway.

"We've always one that" is not much of an excuse for anything, even if true.

Lying, however, makes it look even worse.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #235
280. Maybe, as the other poster pointed out, it is always 'on that model'
My brother has an older scope from them. I'll check.

Yeah, I was just trying to establish whether they were being honest, in addition to stupid.
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #235
339. The US Government
Bought them on a commercial off the shelf contract.

You're directing your ire at the wrong organization.
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #205
338. I'm pretty sure a heinie sight
Doesn't qualify as a "scope", which is what the company specified had the scripture inscribed upon it.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #338
347. Hmm, good point.
Not fair for me to assume they meant all their products (though it is a tritium gas charged device that emits light)
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wial Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
206. we really did stop being the good guys a while ago didn't we
or were we ever?

we can be, though! there's still something great about America, struggling to free itself from its feudal bondage.

getting rid of the filibuster would be a good start. getting rid of the standing army and covert action in peacetime (these colonial wars of agression are not wars in the sense that justifies such antidemocratic institutions)

ending the use of referenda to deprive people of human rights (tyranny of the majority is not democracy)

guarantee food shelter clothing and medicine, the basic social policy of modernity going back at least 2500 years.

get rid of the fallacy of economics and replace it with the truth of ecology.

then MAYBE we can survive.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #206
237. "We?" When did Trijicon become "we?" And when do I get my share of that $660 million?
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 01:41 AM by No Elephants
So far, we have no info to support a conclusion that America's government did anything wrong.

That may in fact be so, but nothing in that story suggests that.



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UrbScotty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
213. As though Christ was in favor of killing.
Prince of PEACE, people. Prince of Peace.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
217. "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." - Jesus Christ
Matthew 10

34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn" 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law 36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #217
239. Totally out of context and not intended literally anyway.
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 01:58 AM by No Elephants
Jesus did not mean that literally, for he never did bring a sword and he preached peace.

In fact, at his birth, the angels declared "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men." (Luke 2:14, KJV) There's the heavenly clue as to the reason why he came.

And he became known as the "Prince of Peace."



This is the passage you quoted, but his time, in context: Matthew 10 (KJV)


25It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

26Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

27What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

29Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

30But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

31Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

40He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

41He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

42And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.




Obviously, Jesus was speaking about bringing Christianity to the world, which might divide a family of Jews or pagans spiritually. He was not referring to a a physical sword, or war or violence. To the contrary, that segnment ends with Jesus promising heaven to someone who gives a child a cup of water.


Anyone can pull something out of the Bible, totally out of context to try to prove a point, but it's totally dishonest. Try again.

BTW: To the atheists: Relax. I'm not trying to convert anyone. Just trying to stop misrepresentation.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #239
266. I don't know what interpretation you believe I was thinking of when I posted that passage,
but I disagree a little with your interpretation. I was not thinking Jesus came to literally hand out swords to people.

"Obviously, Jesus was speaking about bringing Christianity to the world, which might divide a family of Jews or pagans spiritually. He was not referring to a a physical sword, or war or violence. To the contrary, that segnment ends with Jesus promising heaven to someone who gives a child a cup of water."

Jesus is not saying Christianity may cause family strife, he is saying he came to cause family strife. "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." The statement is clear and concise.

"that segnment ends with Jesus promising heaven to someone who gives a child a cup of water."

That is not within the syntax of that sentence, but even if it was, there are clearly stated exceptions, which are...

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

But that that sentence is not saying "Jesus (is) promising heaven to someone who gives a child a cup of water.

And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

The sentence is saying if you give a child a cup of water in the name of a disciple only (perhaps as opposed to giving the water in the name of Jesus, but the sentence is not completely clear about this) you will not loose your spot in heaven.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #217
261. You proved that you could take a bible quote out of context as well as the most rabid fundie
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 09:08 AM by tjwash
Congrats. Jerry Falwell's rotting in hell corpse would be so proud of you. Twisting that one around was one of his minions favorites.

That entire chapter in Matthew is about Jesus letting his apostles know that they were in for a long, hard, road ahead of them, if they continued to follow him and preach his message. About how bringing any new philosophy and way of thinking, that was not of the current Roman status-quo would actually cause such a shitstorm, that it would tear entire families apart and pit them against each others at times, and that they had better be prepared for any backlash.

And no...I'm not a christian, I just like to read, and I have friends who are biblical scholars. But go ahead...keep cherry picking to attempt to make some bias of yours seem justified. It's not like you are the first one to do that.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #261
268. I see you are attacking me instead of my statement.
I addressed your concerns in post #266.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
238. "Those of you who are not Christians, well, whatever, get over it."
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 01:42 AM by Jamastiene
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #238
240. Trijicon is off base about that as well. Many Christians fully support separation of Church and
State.

People need to start seeing this more as a PNACer kind of thing, rather than as a Christian thing. Christians who are Democrats don't think like Trijicon.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #240
241. Of course, many Christians fully support separation of Church and State.
And I would say MANY Christians who are Democrats do not think that way, not all, but those are not the ones in question here.

It's the jerks like the guy in the video who want to shove it down people's throats. THAT seems to be the problem.

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mn9driver Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #238
265. Pretty thin skinned, and not very bright on the comments over there.
Looks like a few folks tweaked them, but most of the negative comments disappear very quickly. If you can get the video poster to reply then he can't delete the comment he replies to, apparently
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 05:56 AM
Response to Original message
244. Thomas Jefferson would be sickened...
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802 Read More...

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm









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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
250. all true believers are freaking insane
when are we as a species going to out grow this nonsense?
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CanonRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
258. That is really sick
Is it just me, or does everyone think this is incredibly sick.
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SlingBlade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
259. Since when does a 5.56mm bullet equal
"Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." ????

If this doesn't prove how SICK these Right Wing Fundies Nut Jobs are, Nothing much does.

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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #259
264. It doesn't. the reference to light is about how the optic collects light to form a reticle

...without batteries.
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #264
303. It appears to imply Jesus helps snipers find their targets.
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 02:17 PM by burning rain
No doubt Muslims will enjoy hearing that!
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #303
326. I didn't interpret it that way -- but I could see how someone might.


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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
260. How perverse....it is truly sickening
Edited on Tue Jan-19-10 09:14 AM by ElsewheresDaughter
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anachro1 Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
267. Perhaps they should
just get honest with themselves and put these bible references on the BULLETS themselves.

They will never see the irony of what they are doing... Our country is FUCKED.
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anachro1 Donating Member (388 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
269. Adolf Hitler
was a Christian, too. Does everyone forget that?
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #269
271. No, true believers just pretend he wasn't.
I should point out that this is a bit of a straw man argument. Hitler also drove German cars, but the fact that I have a VW doesn't make me a Nazi. It is clear, however, that he and the Nazi government relied on religion to reinforce its legitimacy. Also, its institutional antisemitism was rooted in Christian theology.
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demwing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #269
279. Not really true
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1699/was-hitle...

Hitler used Chsritianity, but was a bit of a neo pagan.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
274. I'm an Agnostic and for some reason this story makes me want to buy one of those
It's kind of like the "Have A Nice Day" inscription you can get on the muzzle end of a Barrett rifle's muzzle brake.

Unfortunately they're pretty pricey.
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W T F Donating Member (400 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
275. Why should I, a tax payer, have to pay money so Christians can promote their religion?
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Piewhacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
281. OK, the weapons provided the government do not comply with US law. They are defective.
Just recall all the weapons (at orig manufacturer expense).
Place orders with a new manufacturer (they'll love that).

Then bill the orig manufacture for the difference in cost of providing new sights,
and for the contract penalties for failing to deliver on the contract.

Wow. I wonder if they have a 'get out of jail free' card from someone?
Actually, I don't think it would be legal. Just sayin.
Maybe they got an AG opinion? hey.

But what I really want to know, is this another case of "looking forward"
for Obama. Because I can't tell the difference between that and
"no sheriff in town". Y'hear what I'm sayin Mr. President?

:popcorn:

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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
284. John Chapter 8, Verse 12 does not end with "And he who doth not followeth me
shall have their shit fucked up." I agree with M. K. Gandhi "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
291. Oh lovely. Made-to-order propaganda for the jihadists.
:grr: :banghead:
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-19-10 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
322. psychos always claimed god was on the soldier's side
just so they could manipulate them to kill people they want killed.
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JonHoch3 Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
354. Absurd
Well of course Jesus was a right-wing, paramilitary, steroid junkie. Didn't you know?
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #354
356. It is absurd that the government didn't do it's due diligence.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-23-10 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
355. Idiot reporters they can't get anything right.
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