Report: Al-Qaida claims Madrid attack that kills 190

[bemildred]

The London-based Arabic newspaper Al-Quds
al-Arabi said Thursday it had received a claim
of responsibility issued by The Brigade of Abu
Hafs al-Masri in the name of Al-Qaida for the
Madrid terrorist attacks that killed at least 190
people and wounded 1,247.

The claim received by email at the paper's
London offices said the brigade's "death squad"
had penetrated "one of the pillars of the
crusade alliance, Spain."

"This is part of settling old accounts with
Spain, the crusader, and America's ally in its
war against Islam," the claim said.

Referring to Spain's Prime Minister Jose
Maria Aznar, the statement asked: "Aznar,
where is America? Who will protect you,
Britain, Japan, Italy and others from us?"

Haaretz

[bluestateguy]

1. And there you have it

Well, I guess we're going to have to find another country with no ties to Al Qaeda to bomb.

For the record, I have always supported military action against Al Qaeda.

[BigDaddyLove]

2. Isn't Abu Hafs al-Masri arabic for Karl Rove?

?

[Just Me]

40. By, golly,...I think you may be right!!!

:bounce:

[kalian]

3. Call me a cynic...which I am...

but I think its somebody else claiming to be the so-called
"Al Qaeda" group. Sorry...too convenient.

[jayfish]

4. I Think It Is The Other Way Around.

They started pointing at domestic terrorists at first. I would think they would want to blame anyone but AQ. We need to keep the world thinking that they are smoked out and on the run.

Jay

[kalian]

20. Possibly...but remember that unemployment figures...

and eventually inflation figures are to be released here in the
States.
Either way, its an attempted manipulation of the events in order
to keep the sheeple scared.

[northzax]

23. of course

there is no al-quaeda, per se, it is a loose amalgamation of organizations around the world, it's not like there's a home office they all report to.

[DoYouEverWonder]

90. al qaeda is an over used generic term

like the work mafia or cancer.

[primavera]

102. And of course, thanks to us, al Qaeda now has lots of fans...

... and bin Laden wannabes. There's nothing quite like witnessing the spectacle of twisted bodies of Iraqi children being dragged from the rubble of apartment buildings struck by US cruise missiles to make an otherwise moderate, fence-sitting Muslim wonder whether maybe al Qaeda didn't maybe have it right all along after all. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn that there were now countless newly-formed groups eager to follow in al Qaeda's illustrious footsteps.

[DrWeird]

5. Who else is claiming responsibility?

Aren't there dozens of fringe groups that call in to claim responsibility every time there's an attack?

[macllyr]

6. 911 days between the Fall of the Twin Towers and the Madrid Atrocity

There is exactly 911 days between September 11 2001 and March 11 2004.

The Al-Q van with detonators and Koran verses found by police in Madrid is currently reported only by CNN and Foxnews. Nothing yet on Spanish and French news websites (El Pais, Le monde, Voila, Liberation).

Macllyr

[wuushew]

7. Good call

n/t

[htuttle]

9. I come up with 912 days

So does this date calculator:
http://www.timeanddate.com/date/durationed.html?d1=11&m1=9&y1=2001&h1=&i1=&s1=&d2=11&m2=3&y2=2004&h2=&i2=&s2=

[wuushew]

10. Does that factor in 2004 as leap year?

I will double check.

[htuttle]

13. If it doesn't, that would make it 913 days

...as it would have missed one day, not added one too many.

[wuushew]

26. If the terrorists were not aware of the leap year it would be 911 days

because the extra day in Feburary would add one to the count.
Try it with Sept. 11 2000 and March 11 2003 and see what I mean.

http://www.calendarhome.com/cgi-bin/date2.pl

[mobuto]

12. Also remember that in Spain

and in most of the rest of the world, dates are noted day/month/year, so the 11th of Septmber would be 11.9.2001

[htuttle]

14. Yes

But the number of days between two dates would be consistent either way you wrote the date.

[mobuto]

15. True

But if you think of 9/11 as occurring on 11/9, the significance of the difference will be irrelevant. Al Qaeda has a habit of ignoring anniversaries and important dates anyway, simply targeting what they can when they can. I don't know for certain that there isn't some significance, but I am skeptical.

[htuttle]

16. Ah. Well you see, every now and then, I find we agree on something

I understand what you meant now. If using European date notation, you would expect 119 days between 'significant events' instead of 911 days.

And I agree: I can't think of an al Queda-claimed attack that occurred on a date that was an anniversary or holiday.

[varun]

34. me too...

I came up with 912 days...

...still, the resemblance is uncanny

[Emillereid]

67. The 911 or 912 days is just too damn freaky not to mean something --

is the calculation done at this site inclusive or exclusive of the starting or ending date? Is it like on your mark, get set, go where the go is in the third place or is it 1,2,3 go, where the instruction to go is actually in the fourth place. Just a thought.

[CaptainClark23]

18. very sharp, hadn't made the connection

[arcos]

31. And well... we are exactly 6 months away from Sept 11...

3-11, 9-11

[Vladimir]

47. Its also exactly 30 years

since Franco's body was moved from the palace to his mausoleum in the Valley of the Fallen.

Freaky, or what?

V

[Emillereid]

65. Wow -- sharp thinking!

I think these guys like symbolism. Wonder what symbolic date they will decide to hit the US again?

[burrowowl]

66. Welcome to DU

The rest of the world uses day then month notation: 11/09/01, 11/03/04 ...

[toopers]

8. How long before we are reading about this in the US?

[info being]

36. Worse

"We bring the good news to Muslims of the world that the expected 'Winds of Black Death' strike against America is now in its final stage ... 90 percent (ready) and God willing near," the letter said.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040311/ts_nm/security_usa_qaeda_dc

[Sagan]

11. Chimpy took his eyes off the ball to chase pipeline dreams...

We could have spent the last 2 and a half years engaging al-Queda, but Chimpy HAD to have that oil and his PNAC puppetmasters HAD to have those bases.

So instead, we got distracted by Iraq, suffered thousands of casualties, poured recruits into Al Queda's ranks and this is the result.

Four more years of Chimpy and we'll see Osama sitting in the Oval Office accepting America's surrender. We have GOT to get someone in there who knows what they're doing!

[DeepModem Mom]

22. Sagan, this is the post of the night --

If only your message could reach the people....

[Chicago Democrat]

30. Sagan Says IT

for us. for me anyway!

[Squeegee]

46. Sagan...

:yourock:

You know what?

[Robin Hood]

70. absofuckinglutely.

Truer words were never written.

[kalian]

84. Sigh....you're assuming....

(thus making an ass out of U and Me) that AlQaeda actually exists...

Whatever.... :eyes:

[DoYouEverWonder]

92. We know that

but millions of Americans are convinced that al Qaeda is our biggest enemy and so it is a valid issue to use against Bu$h whenever there is a terrorist attack.

Bu$h claims he's making us safer, when everything he does only makes us even more vulnerable.

[kalian]

98. Do we really know that...?

there are quite a few DUers on these forums that still follow the
"official line" provided by the current administration.
And what happens when Kerry continues the same bs story...?
What then..?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

89. A couple of questions for this thread...

1) Other than being told by the NeoCons that Osama was behind the attacks of 911, a charge he initially refuted by the way, what proof do we really have that Osama was responsible?

2) PNAC's goal is global domination which includes control of the world's oil. Rumsfeld told his top people within minutes of the 911 attack on the Pentagon to prepare for an attack on Iraq. Was Iraq a distraction, or was it the primary objective all along?

3) How do we know that Osama is not working for the NeoCons, just as he worked for the CIA during the Afghan-Soviet War? And how come at least six of the alleged hijackers attended U. S. military schools?

There are multiple balls bouncing in this game...the trick is to keep your eyes on the real ball.

[blinky]

108. keep these theories coming.....

This is great stuff.....you must be a genius. Osama an agent of the Republican Party. I really like that. Hats off, my friend. Your super duper spy decoder ring is in the mail.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

110. "Theories"? Not at all, and here are some links for your review...

Let's review what I posted, shall we?:

1) Other than being told by the NeoCons that Osama was behind the attacks of 911, a charge he initially refuted by the way, what proof do we really have that Osama was responsible?

***Do you have any proof, other than the theories offered by the NeoCon Junta, that Osama/Al Qaeda was responsible for 911? What does it mean to you when the Director of the FBI states that the FBI has no conclusive proof that Al Qaeda was responsible for 911?:

<http://www.americanfreepress.net/051302/FBI_Admits__No_Evidence_/fbi_admits__no_evidence_.html>

2) PNAC's goal is global domination which includes control of the world's oil. Rumsfeld told his top people within minutes of the 911 attack on the Pentagon to prepare for an attack on Iraq. Was Iraq a distraction, or was it the primary objective all along?

***You need to review the following from PNAC:

<http://www.newamericancentury.org/>

<http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf>

3) How do we know that Osama is not working for the NeoCons, just as he worked for the CIA during the Afghan-Soviet War? And how come at least six of the alleged hijackers attended U. S. military schools?

***How many times can Junior lie to you before you come to the conclusion that he has lied about everything, including 911?

<http://emperors-clothes.com/news/probestop-i.htm>

<http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/articlesosama.html>

<http://www.madcowprod.com/issue06.html>

As I stated before, there are multiple balls bouncing in this game...the trick is to keep your eyes on the real ball.

[VolcanoJen]

17. Yep, the world sure is safer, huh? Fox News Link...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,113970,00.html

When was the last time Bin Laden or Al-Qaeda "appeared?" Didn't one of their leaders issue an audiotape not too long ago?

[bemildred]

19. IIRC something "big" was threatened not too long ago.

[kalian]

24. Just two weeks back...remember...

that there were rumors (quickly dispelled) by the Pakistanis and
the US that Osama had "been caught"... :eyes:
There were also reports that increased military actions were expected in order to capture Osama because "he was surrounded".

Its just Goldstein of Orwellian fame...

[dax]

49. What happened to those rumors about OBL being caught?

I think they are holding him and we are being fed news feeds to the big capture that will be dramatic and maybe even involve the bushkin... How would it benefit them to just threaten if they can't fix it something doesn't pass the smell test

[blinky]

109. Man, this is great

You and "Media Lies", or whatever his name is should get together and form a secret organization of geniuses that have everything figured out waaaaaay before the rest of us.

We must already have Osama. I think Bush is actually holding him right under our nose in the White House. And I think Amnesty International will be really upset when they find out they are forcing him to eat out of Millie's old dog bowl.

[bemildred]

25. Here we go:

As-Safir (Beirut)
A taped message by Ayman al-Zawahiri that aired on the
Arabic satellite channel Al-Jazeera this week, in which the
man who is Al-Qaeda's second in command threatened the
US with major attacks, may prove to be a priceless gift to
US President George W. Bush in an election year, senior
columnist Sateh Nouriddine wrote Thursday.
Nouriddine said that Zawahiri and Al-Qaeda chief Osama
bin Laden had moved from being two leaders who shook the
world to two media commentators who want to increase the
number of their disciples among Muslim extremists.
"The most serious part of this message was Zawahiri's
threat to send `death brigades' to attack targets inside the US
as a reaction to Bush boasting about combating terrorism,
and in order to `teach the American people a lesson' similar
to that of Sept. 11 , 2001," Nouriddine wrote.
The columnist said it seemed that Zawahiri was not aware
of the US polls that indicated that Bush's popularity was
plunging and that most Americans wanted him out of the
White House.
"Zawahiri's message may prove to be a boring and empty
threat like many previous ones bin Laden and Zawahiri have
made, but Washington will consider this threat as an
invaluable gift to Bush who presents himself to the US as a
`war president' with a `divine mandate to rid the world
from this evil,'" Nouriddine said.
"If Zawahiri wanted to teach Bush a lesson, he failed to do
so with his recent message, because any major terrorist
attack on US soil this year will boost Bush's popularity and
guarantee his re-election."

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/opinion/28_02_04_i.asp

[VolcanoJen]

29. Thank you, bemildred!

In the wee hours of this morning, when the bombing had just happened, LBNers were debating the possiblility of Al-Qaeda's involvement in this horrible atrocity.

It does seem that, for the most part, attacks come within a few weeks of the release of an Al-Qaeda leader audiotape.

I think markses called this correctly in the wee hours of this morning. The precise, coordinated attacks have Al-Qaeda written all over them.

[bemildred]

32. That's the way it looks to me.

There were specific threats against Spain and other
members of the Coalition of the Willing further back
in time, too.

[bemildred]

27. Another:

PARIS, Feb 25 (AFP) - French anti-terrorism experts are taking
seriously a new warning from Osama bin Laden's right-hand man who
accused France of "crusader enmity" for its ban on Muslim
headscarves in schools.

Although the Al-Qaeda number two, Ayman al-Zawahiri, did not
threaten "jihad," or holy struggle or war, he said the headscarf ban
was in the same league as "the burning of villages in Afghanistan, the
destruction of houses over the heads of their inhabitants in Palestine,
the massacre of children and the theft of oil in Iraq."

Zawahiri made the attack in an audiotape that was broadcast Tuesday
by Al-Arabiyah satellite television in Dubai.

He called the ban "a new sign of the enmity of the Western crusaders
against Muslims even while boasting of freedom, democracy and
human rights."

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=58&story_id=5051

[Rochambeau]

55. Alert level in France

is, since yesterday (it's friday 0100AM here), now from yellow to orange. :scared:

[jayfish]

37. You Obviously Didn't Get The Memo.

When they say the "World" is safer, they really mean the Territorial USA. I mean, who gives a shit about 170 Spaniards? /Sarcasm

Jay

[markses]

21. I can't see ETA pulling this - I lean toward al-Quaeda cell

It's just not ETA's thing.

[The Blue Knight]

28. Yea, I don't think this an ETA attack.

[FatSlob]

33. Is anybody surprised.

I can't wait till those asses are wiped off the face of the planet.

N.B. that the asses I refer to are al Quaeda.

[varun]

35. ETA had ties to Al-Qaeda

http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,658668,00.html

Eta has Stinger missiles bought from Bin Laden

Giles Tremlett in Madrid
Wednesday February 27, 2002
The Guardian

Three Eta members travelled to al-Qaida camps in Afghanistan last year to buy ground-to-air missiles and train in their use, according to a report from an unnamed Arab intelligence service obtained by Tiempo magazine in Spain.
The magazine said the Basque separatists had bought three Stinger missiles, which Spanish intelligence services feared they would try to use to bring down official aircraft carrying government ministers or King Juan Carlos.

Official Spanish documents seen by the Guardian confirm that officials believe Eta has obtained anti-aircraft missiles....

[DeepModem Mom]

38. Interesting find -- could be AQ/ETA attack...

[worldgonekrazy]

39. boy it sure would be hard to falsify an email

nt

[K8-EEE]

51. Not Just The Email -- Doesn't Seem Like ETA

in a lot of ways. They only way it seems like ETA is that it happened in Spain.

Why WOULDN'T Spain be targeted by AlQueda? They are the closest and easiest major "coilition" partner there is.

[MadHound]

41. Somehow this whole Al Qaeda mess just doesn't smell right to me.

In fact it smells like a convienent scapegoat to hang all sorts of black ops shit on. Call me tin foil all you want, it won't be the first time, probably not the last. But this whole thing stinks.

I mean, really now, Spanish authorities conviently find an abandoned van with seven detonators and recordings of Koranic verses. Sounds about as convient as the FBI finding a trunkful of plans and verses after 911, or the miraculous survival of one of the hijacker's passports, going through the hell of the WTC collapse, and landing blocks away virtually unscathed. I'm sorry, but most terrorists, most criminals do not leave the tools of their trade simply lying around for anyone to peruse, if for no other reason than monetary.

And then there is the matter of who Al Qaeda is really working for. Supposedly headed by Osama bin Laden, a former CIA contract agent(and what is that old saying, once you're in the CIA, you never get out), it is funded by, among others, a large Saudi family with close ties to the Bushes(also "former" CIA). In fact the Bushes and bin Ladens have been in bed together for decades now, investing in each others business, doing deals together, being socially, businessly, and politically intimate to the point of appearing incestous at times. I mean really now, who was on that lone civilian plane allowed out of the US on 9/12/01? That's right, members of the bin Laden family.

And then there is the matter of Israeli intelligence setting up false front al Quaeda cells in order to provide an excuse to crack down on the Palestinians. <snip>"The Palestinian Authority arrested a group of collaborators who confessed they were working for Israel, posing as al-Qaeda operatives in the Palestinian territories," said the official, on condition of anonymity. He said the alleged collaborators sought to "discredit the Palestinian people, justify every Israeli crime and provide reasons to carry out a new (military) aggression in the Gaza Strip." <snip> <http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2002/12/24546_comment.php>

It is also interesting to note that this is not the only time Israeli intelligence has set up a terrorist organization. Hamas(now frequently cited as a running partner with al Qaeda) was originally set up by Israel as a way to dilute the influence of the PLO in the late seventies.<http://www.upi.com/print.cfm?StoryID=18062002-051845-8272r> Fun and games, fun and games, who's working for whom, who cares? In the world of global black ops and intelligence activities, your friend today is your enemy tomorrow, with everybody getting together for a round of drinks at the end of the week.

So the most important question in this whole mess is WHY? Why would the CIA(or Mossad for that matter) wish to blow up trains in Spain? Well, it is now starting to rumble around about the Saudi links to al Qaeda, how deep they go, how far into the royal family, and the country at large these ties are. And it is all a PNAC crusader's wet dream. For if you can connect al Qaeda to horrible, ongoing terrorism, and in turn, connect al Qaeda to Saudia Arabia, then you have a wonderful excuse to invade Saudia Arabia. Not only will the PNACers get more control of the precious ME oil(a needed conquest in this day of peak oil), but it's also a great twofer for the PNACers fundy shock troops. You conquer the Muslim high holy sites in Saudi Arabia! And after all, wasn't it George Bush, among others in this administration, calling this ME misadventure a "crusade"?

So flame me if you wish, but remember, this wouldn't be the first time we've heard of possible terrorist attacks around the world that were traced back to various intelligence agencies. The Nazis did this with the Reichstag fire, the US did it with Operation Northwoods. There has been over forty years in the interim for the spy guys to perfect their act. We might just be seeing the opening curtain on the upcoming showstopper. Be aware, be warned, and be open to the possiblity.

[MrPrax]

43. You got it...

Yeah..a van with detonators, some telltale Koran verses (all like the crap found at Logan Airport in the rented cars?

It was reported as being Basque separatists? That makes more sense...

But what is it about these trains?

In France there is some shadowy group threatening to blow up trains if the French don't give them money?

What up with that?

You never hear about trains...and now back to back train terrorist stuff?

I dunno...

[spinbaby]

81. The van was stolen

This morning BBC reported that the van was stolen.

[Matilda]

61. An excellent post, with a great deal to think about.

Incestuous is the word - when it comes to terrorist/intelligence
agencies, they are not always what they seem to be, and the
differences between them are very fluid. They can't be taken at
face value.

Unfortunately, whoever is responsible, the most likely response from
Bush and his allies will doubtless be more threats against whomever
is the next target on the list - maybe Saudi Arabia, equally likely
it could be Iran or Syria. And while attention is diverted
elsewhere, Israel will make its final move against the Palestinians.

The scariest thing is that both Christian and Islamic fundies want
to see Armageddon, and it's frighteningly possible that we could be
seeing its beginning right now.

[CaptainMidnight]

71. Madhound? WHO the F%&K are YOU?

Did you invade my brain today?

Are you my evil twin, separated at birth?

Your cogent and well-thought-out point echoes EXACTLY what I was thinking today. Right on down to my suspicions abou the probably "planted" Koran and detonators "found" in a van.

Wow. This is eeeeerie.

If you get a sec, PM me.

Captain Mike

[Mokito]

75. There is also the matter elections in Spain

Many Spanish people seem suspicious (even if not so outspoken) about their own government and the possibility of their hand in the attacks. I know it sounds very cynical, but keep in mind the massive opposition against Spain's role in the Iraq F* Up. It soared easily between 80 and 90% of the populace.
It is not inconceivable that the current ruling party or parties feared a landslide loss in the coming elections, that could even wipe them from the political arena for generations to come. And as is widely known, people tend to rally behind what they got when in distress and/or fear.
In short; just the 'October-surprise' kinda scenario that is so widely known (and feared) in the USA for the coming elections.

Cynical, yes, but possible.

[MadHound]

80. Good point, one that I didn't know about.

Good catch! Yes, that makes me even more suspicious. Nothing like an attack on one's own soil to rally the people. Makes me wonder what is in store for this fall.

[anarchy1999]

76. No flame, I believe you are right. You Nailed It!

Not only do I believe you are right, I think you NAILED IT.

Al Qaeda is nothing but a huge psyop to manipulate us all. If we can't have Russia anymore and the "Cold War", a new enemy to fight must be created. Welcome to the "Global War on Terrorism".

God help us all.

We the people, of the world do have the power, I believe, to stop this madness of those who are obsessed with control of the world.

RISE UP, we are all being asked.

[MadHound]

77. Spot on point Anarchy

I mean after all, what would the government have to spend all that money on if there wasn't an "enemy"? The people? BWAHAHAHA! Like the military industrial complex would spend good money on the betterment of ordinary citizens. Hell, Clinton pulled off welfare "reform", and welfare only takes up eight tenths of one percent of the federal budget. That's at least enough money there for a couple of bombs.

[nolabels]

87. The bad thing is the enemy is not up to task

They call them Islamist, or what ever words they cook up for indigenous people trying to grasp and hold any sliver. They figure out ways to chip off edges and radicalize, while most of the rest are just ordinary type of people.

They are going to have work hard to get that fervor up. That's a lot money to be spending. It's no wonder its hush hush about any others latching on to western armaments. The spread of the bomb trough Pakistan is a big clue.

The most harmful thing for any military, is a concept of peaceful resolutions

[cygy2k]

42. Check the return email addy

Make sure the return email address on that claim by "AQ" isn't actuall from @whitehouse.gov. Chimpy might have learned what the computer is for (Not just chimp pron).
Cy

Al Qaeda Planning Center
c/o Karl Rove
1600 Pennsylvania Ave
Washington DCeit

[revree]

44. You mean, KARL ROVE'S AL QUEDA

What a perfect excuse for even more Muslim Bashing on the part of GW

[mobuto]

45. Oh sure

Islamist terrorism was thought up in a back room somewhere because somebody wanted an excuse to bash Muslims.

Get a life.

[The Stranger]

48. You really haven't been keeping up with events the past 2 1/2 years, have

you?

September 11 was seized upon by Neoconservatives as a pretext to launch the War on Terrorism and the war in Iraq, which was based nearly completely on lies.

And that is just the beginning.

[demdave]

50. And 26th February 1993 was ignored by the Clinton admin.

Oh, I forgot, we took those responsible for the bombing to trial and they were convicted and imprisoned. I believe that was exactly what I was told in this forum we should do to the hijackers and their accomplices, after all, we all saw how well it worked at stopping terrorism the first time.

[The Stranger]

53. And, judging from today's events, has the War on Terrorism

fared better?

[demdave]

57. It the U. S. ...yes. This is an ongoing event against people who

have no respect for human life. Anyone who doesn't see that these people don't care who they kill and will never stop are not paying attention and have their own agenda.

[tlcandie]

68. Wow! You just perfectly described this cabal!

Scarey!

[0007]

78. You got it!

This Spain thing stinks to high heavens.

[sam7]

82. Yes.

In the weeks and months following 9/11 who would have thought that we'd go 2 1/2 years without another attack on US soil.

[leesa]

52. This is the only way left for Bush, Azner and Blair to secure "re-election

Expect many more "Al Qaeda" attacks until the elections are secured.

[Pikku]

60. Remember that Aznar

joined the Coalition of the "Willing" despite the opposition of 90% of Spanish citizens. What better way than to tell the people "I told you so," particularly f Aznar blames ETA and then oh-so-reluctantly is persuaded that AQ® was responsible?

[varun]

54. Madrid Bombs Don't Match ETA Style - Europol Head

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=586&e=2&u=/nm/20040311/wl_nm/spain_explosions_europol_dc

Thu Mar 11,12:53 PM ET Add World - Reuters to My Yahoo!

ROME (Reuters) - The simultaneous bomb blasts that ripped through commuter trains in Madrid on Thursday did not bear the hallmarks of Basque separatist group ETA, the head of the European Union (news - web sites)'s police agency said.

"It could have been ETA... But we're dealing with an attack that doesn't correspond to the 'modus operandi' they have adopted up to now," said Europol director Juergen Storbeck, who was in Rome to talk to an Italian parliamentary committee...

[Dead_Parrot]

74. Too big...

The largest attack by Eta (excluding this as a possible) killed about 20 people in the 80's: Apparently they later phoned the gov't and appologised for not giving the warning in time. As a rule, they always phone either the press or police and give notice of their actions - they want to cause disruption, not outright slaughter.

On the other hand, didn't al-Qaeda/al-Masri also claimed to be behind the US/Canada blackouts? And they were down to dumb luck and stupidity.

:shrug: Any guesses?

[Rochambeau]

56. Condolences to the Spanish people. n/t

[Paradise]

58. I join you! n/t

[unbrand]

59. Just back from the Spanish consulate in San Francisco

I went there to express my condolences. They have a sign in the window that says there's a book you can sign to express your wishes regarding the terrorist attack. A man lets me in, I express my sympathies and tell him I want to sign the book. I sign it, not really sure at all what to write.

I asked him who they thought did the attacks, and he said at first they thought ETA, but now they think Al Queda. "Much worse" were his words.

He thanked me profusely as I left, and I could tell he meant it.

Any San Francisco DU'ers out there, drop by the consulate. It would mean a lot to them. They're on Sutter x Franklin.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

62. Kinda odd

Kinda odd this happened on 3/11.

[I AM SPARTACUS]

69. "drop by the consulate. It would mean a lot to them"...echo

deserves an echo...I was overseas on 9-11, and it was amazing how strangers came up to us to express sympathy and support. It meant alot to us...

[VolcanoJen]

63. I just watched some footage again... Honestly, I don't freaking care...

... who's responsible, now that I've really accepted the carnage of March 11th.

This is truly the September 11th of Europe, if that helps Americans wrap themselves around the reality of today. I've held together pretty well, but after watching the footage, most of it new, of what transpired in Madrid today, I'm absolutely devastated, and in tears.

The journalist in the Guardian article put it best: Today, we are all Spanish.

Americans, please take a moment to grieve for the horrific events of today. Before becoming political and playing the "who's at fault" game (I'm incredibly guilty of that myself), we need to take a moment out and show the respect, dignity, and love for the people of Spain. We can truly sympathize with their collective experience today, and my heart couldn't sink any lower.

My love, thoughts, and prayers are with the People of Spain tonight, in their grief and loss. There really are no words.

[glitch]

103. hear hear!

You said it much better than I could. Thank you for you post.

[Zomby Woof]

64. Saw the Nightline coverage

Being tied up at work, I could not view any of the coverage until this evening.

I am saddened and sickened by the events in Madrid, and my heart goes out to the people of Spain, my brothers and sisters all.

[ze_dscherman]

72. Stay Behind

I've already posted this in another thread on the same subject:


Well, this could have been ETA, and it could have been Al-Quaeda.

But today I will put on my tinfoil hat. :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

I feel reminded of Italy in the 80's - the infamous Bologna train station bombing. This was first blamed on leftist terrorists, but it has been confirmed that it was the deed of Italian neo-nazis. They had close ties to secret societies such as the Propaganda Due(P2) lodge, Italian secret service and organized crime. There are also claims that Gladio, a secret NATO organization, was involved.
See: http://www.citinv.it/info/ustica/staybeh.htm

Guess who was Reagans man in Italy then? "Anti-terrorist" Michael Ledeen
http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/8249
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11512

[leftchick]

79. Geez ze_dscherman!! That calls for a triple layer...

Michael Ledeen Indeed!! Yikes!


:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

[SOS]

99. Ledeen is an avowed fascist

and enthusiastic supporter of the "creative destruction" that a fascist movement can create. He also holds "The Freedom Chair" at the American Enterprise Institute. His "thinking" is influential in the Bush administration.
http://www.amconmag.com/06_30_03/feature.html

[Capt_Nemo]

73. The confusion is being encouraged by the spanish government

There are elections on Sunday and for the government the consequences
were could be quite distinct if the blame falls squarely on ETA or
alternatively on Al-Qaida.

The current spanish goverment is running on a campaign on being tough
on terrorism, and trying to associate the socialists with the
Catalan leftists that were contacting the political leadership of
Basque separatists. Although in the long term this can lead to
expose the inconsistency of the rationale behind government's stance on the Basque problem, the government is trying to associate ETA to the attack) in a short term tactic
to produce an emotional response of the voters to the rethoric of
that supports its bankrupt aproach to the Basque problem.

The problem is that they have yet to find out who did it and cannot
make a definitive accusation against ETA without risking having to
backtrack later if others are found responsible. that is why they are hinting
strongly at ETA, but stopping short of blaming them outright (just like
the bushies always repeating 911 and Saddam on the same sentence
but stopping short of saying Saddam did it).

OTOH, Al-Qaida responsibility could pose a very grave electoral danger
to the goverment for it would have been this goverment's action
in participating in the occupation of an arab country against a
non-existant threat that has now put its own citizens at the mercy
of a very real threat. This is why spanish ministers are talking
up ETA relentlessly.

As for what I believed has happened... It is to early to tell if it
was basques, arabs, or any others that did this. Maybe we will never
know. Their objective however is clear, influence the outcome of the
political processes in Spain, derail its democracy and spread chaos.

[kalian]

83. Just the Spanish gov't...?

:eyes:

[Kellanved]

88. exactly: example "Spanish envoys told to blame ETA"

--snip
MADRID (Reuters) - The Spanish government told its ambassadors to spread the word that armed Basque separatist group ETA was to blame for the Madrid bombings within hours of the attacks, a leading newspaper has reported.

"You should use any opportunity to confirm ETA's responsibility for these brutal attacks, thus helping to dissipate any type of doubt that certain interested parties may want to promote," El Pais quoted on Saturday Foreign Minister Ana Palacio as writing in a memo.
--snap
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L13616665.htm

[blinky]

85. Sheeeshh

Some of you boys are just a little too far out there for me. I seriously hope you don't represent the mainstream democratic party.
Here's a little site for some of the wackos posting to this thread: http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

[Bridget Burke]

86. My, tin foil, how original!

Sorry, studying 9/11 & other events tends to make some people suspicious.

Of course, the prompt & full investigation of 9/11 helped a great deal in this War on Terror (tm). What--the investigation began fairly recently? With severely budgeted time & money? With downright stonewalling from the administration? (Bush may speak to 2 members in private--perhaps even for longer than an hour if they're really nice. Cheney is still in hiding & our National Security expert is too shy to appear in public again--she doesn't lie well.) But Bush is glad to campaign on his great security failure.

If the latest atrocity was not committed by ETA, then Al Qaeda must be guilty? Who, exactly, is Al Qaeda? Details would be useful.

Blair has already been heard with a stirring speech, tying in the invasion of Iraq with Al Qaeda. In fact, Al Qaeda may be involved now--but they weren't in Iraq before the bloody invasion set up by Bush & Tony & Aznar (against the wishes of so many of their people). And more bleating from Tony about WMD--you know, those things not used 9/11, nor on 3/11--and not found in Iraq. He's glad to use the dead to support his arguments, as well.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

91. Speaking of "out there", this site leads the way.

[DoYouEverWonder]

93. Well seems that you don't like it around here

I guess you won't be staying long?

[blinky]

94. Oh no, I like it here.

This forum gives me confidence in thinking that Bush is going to win this thing. If you think the security issue is such a failure for Bush, you should be ecsatic that he's running on that issue. Guaranteed failure, right?

Bush has f'd up a lot of things. His domestic policy is a disaster in many ways. But the majority of Americans (you tinfoil hat guys not withstanding) think that his foreign policy, while hard-nosed, is what we need right now. They know we don't need some guy that's so devoid of core beliefs that he'll tell the Israeli's their wall is necessary and then a few weeks later tell the Palestinians the wall must come down.

You guys would rather put on your tin foil hats and expend your energy trying to find conspiracy theories everywhere(which in the end has you running on wild goose chases and looking rather ridiculous), while the rest of the democrats and republicans that are not as "suspicious" look at reality and try to find a solution.

If you continue this "Bush should not run using 9/11" meme and don't start concentrating on the terrible flaws in his domestic policy I predict you'll have another frustrating 4 years.

[DoYouEverWonder]

95. Thanks for a look at the other side

Obviously the memes like Bu$h did nothing on 9-11, Bu$h still can't find Osama, the fact that there have been more major terror attacks in 3 years than in the last 30 proves that Bu$h is more dangerous than al Qaeda. Kerry's gonna kick his butt on all those issues, just you wait and see.

Bu$h can't win a fair and free election for dogcatcher and Bu$h and Co know it.

Personally, I'm glad Bu$h is running on 9-11 because if that's all he's got to run on then he will go down as the worst president in history. Just remember on the morning of 9-11 Bu$h knew and he did nothing.

[blinky]

97. This is what I'm talking about.....

I'm curious, If Bush knew about 9-11, what were his reasons for doing absolutely nothing. Is it so he could start a war with Iraq or some other nefarious motive as such? Do you honestly believe he is so callous that he would risk the lives of 50,000 people so that he could start a war with Iraq? The vast majority of people just don't believe that. It's a loser idea for you guys.

The next thing, why use the $ sign when spelling his name? I know it makes you guys chuckle, I guess, but I think it's just as apropos of Edward$, who found a loophole in the law to save $290,000 on Medicare taxes in ONE YEAR while at the same time pushing for higher medicare taxes for everyone else, or maybe even Kerry, who has a habit of marrying women for their money. Kerry lives in a 14 MILLION dollar house and has other houses all across the country. Clinton is the All Time winner of the $ sign award, he famously took as a tax write-off $2.00 for each pair of underwear he donated to charity. If that's not an obsession with money, my friend, I don't know what is.

I know Kerry and Clinton have no S in there name with which to replace the $ sign, but I think the idea behind the $ sign is to say Bush is obsessed with money. Which of these guys isn't?

[TiredTexan]

96. Why are you attempting to limit

the Dems to running solely on domestic policy? Bush's policy decisions, regardless of the arena, are the worst of any president in our history. It's an overarching theme of bad policy decisions reached as the result of a bad policy apparatus. This is the fundamental reality of his presidency, his true legacy, and to concede ground on any of the issues is poor strategy indeed.

His domestic agenda: Tax cuts to the wealthy, underfunding his own education initiatives, raiding the Social Security fund, deficits as far as the eye can see, promoting exportation of jobs, the Patriot Acts (I & II), lifting controls on polluters, privatizing the commons for the benefit of wealthy contributers, promoting a Medicare drug program that benefits only the drug and insurance industries, refusing to extend unemployment benefits, passing reguations designed to impede unions, privatizing essential governmental services so there is a loss of jobs and lower pay, gutting overtime protections, firing scientists, changing science reports, etc. ad nauseum.

Yes, these are strong points all, but are only half the picture.

The war on terrorism and foreign policy: He stood on the grounds of the WTC and promised more funding for first responders, and then cut that funding. He alienated allies by promising to get an Iraq war resolution vote in the UN, and did not. He assisted the UK in bugging UN members phones, cars, offices for political advantage on the war resolution. He set up the OSP to cherry pick intelligence in the Pentagon to make the case for war. He lied to the American public about Iraq's WMD repeatedly, as did other members of his administration. He promised funds to assist with AIDs in Africa, and never funded the promise. He cut funds for assistance in family planning (birth control and information). He pressured the IMF and the World Bank not to give assistance to Aristide in Haiti, and helped overthrow him. He is giving billion dollar no-bid contracts to companies already proven to have defrauded American taxpayers of millions, if not billions of dollars. He has not initiated plans to search containers coming into this country from overseas, and still leaves unprotected chemical plants and our water supply. His administration outed a WMD covert agent to effectuate revenge on her husband.

I could go on forever, but the truth of the matter is that when policy, whether domestic, foreign, or terrorism, is based solely upon political expediency, the results are quite predictable. And given the propensity of this administration to lie, cover up, punish its enemies, etc., one would be foolish indeed not to consider that it would do whatever, whenever, to retain its power.

History is replete with examples of the powerful manipulating the masses through staged and faux attacks. Your refusal to see any possibility of these is either willful naivete or collaberation with the powers that be. In every age, those who were suspicious of events like this have been dismissed, called foolish and ridiculed. Unfortunately, they often turn out to be right.

I don't know what happened here. But I do know that this government appears willing to do anything to retain its power, and I will keep my mind open, heed history, and read more.

Your sneering distain of those that disagree with you is inappropriate and sounds rather like the media on all things like this. I am old enough to remember the Gulf of Tonkin incident, and recall quite well the same sneering tone. And we all know how that came out.

[blinky]

101. Once again, your conspiracy theory mind at work.....

Did I ever say dems should be limited running solely on domestic policy? NO!!!! You think I'm trying to LIMIT your right to free speech? Your paranoia is overwhelming.

What I said was if you are going to run your candidate on these conspiracy theories you are going to lose because the vast majority of Americans don't believe them. Currently there must be 200 conspiracy theories out there. If even one of them is correct, it will not be known for years and years, and it will not help your cause NOW. In the meantime you look like a bunch of paranoids and it does your party no good. And an "I told you so" 12 years from now will not help you then either because everyone who is responsible will most likely be out of office.

What about these conspiracy theories?

#1. Bill and Hillary killed Vince Foster.
#2. Bill bombed an aspirin factory to take everyone's mind of Lewinsky.

There are thousands of conspiracy theories on the right too. You all laughed at those guys and called them looney-tunes. And you were right. The Republicans were hurt by all these silly theories. Just like you guys will be if you keep harping on it. I hope Kerry has the sense to stay away from all you crackpots so that we can have a decent debate on "real" issues and not some unsubstantiated crazy theories.

[TiredTexan]

104. You clearly didn't read my post or your first post.

You were the one who said that the majority of Americans agreed with Bush on his foreign policy and that to attack it was a problem. Moreover, I said nothing about you attempting to limit my free speech, nor would I ever be so foolish as to encourage candidates to run on conspiracy theories.

Twisting, spinning, changing the subject is what you are doing.

It's easy to dismiss all conspiracy theories as being foolish or accepting them all because you want to believe the worst about an opponent. It's very hard to sort the wheat from the chaff. And, contrary to your twisting and spinning, that's what most here are attempting to do. Gathering information, looking at it skeptically, and attempting to sort the real from the illusion.

Given that suspicion about this administration is well-founded, and your attempts to twist the conversation and sneer at others reveal your agenda.

And the name-calling merely confirms the paucity of your logic and weakness of your position.

[blinky]

105. Ok dude,

Go ahead with your theories. I hope they all work out for you. If You can "twist and spin" all your little fringe ideas into a win then more power to you. And by the way, conspiracy theorists such as yourself require more "twisting and spinning" of the facts than I'll ever be capable of.

Good Luck, see you at the next black helicopter meeting.

[TiredTexan]

106. Again, you distort.

I have no theories, as I was clearly noting. Besides, I'm not a "Dude."

But, in the vein of not throwing pearls to swine, whatever.

You're on ignore.

[blinky]

107. And as you and I type.......

Another one of this boards conspiracy theories is blown away, that being that ETA framed Al Quaeda and/or that Aznar had the trains blown up himself for political reasons. Bunch of arrests in Spain. I could've sworn it was Dick Cheney who did this.

[windansea]

100. new info

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x419949