Madrid bombings carry al-Qaida hallmark

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040311-112725-1601r

WASHINGTON, March 11 (UPI) -- "It's a declaration of war against democracy," said Pat Cox, the president of the European Parliament, of Thursday's attacks in Madrid. On that point there is no debate. What is debatable, however, is who is responsible for the senseless slaughter of innocents.

While all fingers in Spain are pointing at the Basque separatist movement ETA as the perpetrators of Thursday's atrocious train bombings that left some 186 dead and 600 wounded, the attacks carry all the markings of al-Qaida and its jihadi affiliates.

For starters the Brussels-based World Observatory of Terrorism, an independent think tank affiliated with the European Strategic Intelligence and Security Center, points to five major reasons that cast doubt on the involvement of ETA.

First, ETA generally warns Spanish authorities moments before launching their attacks in which civilians are likely to be harmed. This, obviously, was not the case on Thursday. snip

As one German intelligence officer lamented, "now the war has reached Europe."

more

A note from Earl on the last thread I posted of this story:

EarlG ADMIN (1000+ posts) Thu Mar-11-04 01:10 PM
Response to Original message

120. Alright


I've had enough of deleting the personal attacks out of this thread, so I'm locking it.

Try staying on topic next time and discussing the subject at hand rather than the motivations of other members. The people I'm referring to know who they are.

This thread may be reposted.

EarlG
DU Admin

[chiburb]

1. Of course my 1st question is...

What's in it for Rev. Moon for it to be Al Qaida? Not saying it isn't, but with UPI as the source I'm automatically suspicious and looking for the angle...

[mobuto]

2. Reuters too

UPI is terrible. Reuters is not.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. intelligence agencies believe it is too early to conclude who was behind rush-hour explosions in Madrid that killed at least 180 people, but see the attack as bearing hallmarks of both the Basque separatist group ETA and al Qaeda, a U.S. official said on Thursday.

"It's going to be muddy for a while until the Spanish authorities get in there and start doing some forensics," the U.S. official said.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the 10 simultaneous rush-hour blasts at three railway stations that also injured around 900 people. But Spain blamed ETA.

"There are characteristics of each," the official said, referring to ETA and Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network.

"You have multiple attacks, multiple explosions in different locations in a short period of time which is very al Qaeda-ish," the official told Reuters. Al Qaeda has been blamed for bombing attacks on Western interests, including the Sept. 11, 2001, hijacked plane attacks on America.

--Continued--

http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId=833770&tw=wn_wire_story

[The Stranger]

3. NV1962 seems to have done his or her homework on this. And was doing

it long before UPI reached such quick conclusions:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x414807#415460

[bemildred]

4. Clever those ETA terrorists,

using arabic language tapes to throw
everyone off the trail ...

[The Stranger]

19. Actually, arabic language tapes would be a little too obvious.

If someone wanted to remain unknown, arabic tapes would be essential.

[bemildred]

21. Tsk, it's always difficult to catch those ambiguities. nt

[K8-EEE]

18. What Homework?

I think it could be either al quaida OR ETA. They simply don't know. BOTH have motives and access. I haven't heard of any evidence coming out about this yet.

[ParanoidPat]

5. "Al-Qaida Hallmark"?

What'd they do leave a card? :shrug:

Just a little note to say
We blew up your trains today!
Just thinking of you

Love Ya, Osama B.L. :)

How about some EVIDENCE! Funny, I don't recall hearing anything about 'increased chatter' recently. :crazy:

[Aidoneus]

6. Yes

It's not quite an Ace of Spades (the calling card of choice for a particular group of mass murderers in the past), but it gives the press and politicians all they need to know when some hyperbolic nonsense needs slinging around.

[mobuto]

7. What can possibly be hyperbolic

about the bombing murder of 180 innocent people?

[ParanoidPat]

8. Immediate assumptions of responsibility.....

.....without investigation or factual evidence? :shrug:

[mobuto]

9. It may be irresponsible

but how is it hyperbolic?

[ParanoidPat]

10. Could it be that they're exaggerating the 'ties' to Al Qaida?

Webster's 1913 Dictionary Definition:

\Hy*per"bo*le\, n. overshooting, excess, fr. Gr. ? to throw over or beyond;
"ype`r over + ? to throw. See {Hyper-}, {Parable}, and cf.
{Hyperbola}.] (Rhet.)
A figure of speech in which the expression is an evident
exaggeration of the meaning intended to be conveyed, or by
which things are represented as much greater or less, better
or worse, than they really are; a statement exaggerated
fancifully, through excitement, or for effect.

Our common forms of compliment are almost all of them
extravagant hyperboles. --Blair.

Somebody has said of the boldest figure in rhetoric,
the hyperbole, that it lies without deceiving.
--Macaulay.

[mobuto]

11. Exactly

Hyperbole implies exageration. I don't see any exageration here. Nobody's exagerating by leaping to conclusions. That may be irresponsible but its not hyperbole.

[ParanoidPat]

13. Semantics.....

.....:evilgrin: I do see the exaggeration. I've seen plenty of other 'terror groups' that have used simultaneous, coordinated explosions like the IRA and some anti abortion extremists who, like Al Qaida, have never launched an attack on Spain. Although they may lack the same motives, I don't see any mention of those groups as sharing the "obvious hallmarks" of this attack. :)

There are reasonable suspicions that Al Qaida may be involved but to present those suspicions as anything more at this time without any firm evidence is, IMHO, hyperbolic. :evilgrin:

[Just Me]

36. Isn't any rumor or exaggerated suspicion within the realm of hyperbole,...

,...particularly if it is intentionally and widely distributed in support of an agenda? I try to avoid cynicism, even if I am not always successful,...but I am a free-market skeptic *LOL*!!!

[Aidoneus]

25. I referred not to the horrible bombings, but to some official responses

The act is of course horrible and without justification; I will attempt no debate against that obvious point.

Already the tone of the responses from certain quarters is ominous, as a precursor to how they plan to shamefully use the event for the benefit of ongoing and future attacks on their own countries and the world; that, I will speak on. I should have included a reference to who specifically I was referring to, and worked in the concept of hypocrisy in some form.. but the time has passed for being able to edit that in, so I'll work it out later.

such as:--(culled from a few articles found here)
"It's a declaration of war against democracy"
"The Madrid bombings are a monstrous assault on European democracy"
"the new fascism of the 21st century"
"European soldiers promote stability in Africa, Asia, the greater Middle East and most recently, Haiti"

I assume the usual suspects, Straw/Blair/Aznar and the rest of the current pack of lackeys of the aggressive militant tendency will read from the same page and milk every inch of it for exploitation (and Bush, of course, but that goes without saying), perhaps in the PR blitz justifying the next place they help invade and occupy (murdering thousands of innocent people along the way as they have assisted in before) or the next five thousand people they kidnap and hold prisoner (well, several thousands more if the hostages in occupation custody in Iraq count). Maybe used WRT the immigration issue instead.. I don't know, and won't think of it much. There are other steps for the relevant agencies to take if past tendencies are repeated as they currently appear to.

Those talking about how "the war has now reached Europe" and suggest that there is no justification for "terrorism" have never shrunk from helping along and praising the aggressors when Baghdad, Rafah, or Grozny are on fire. I guess there are justifications to be given after all, depending of course on who is the giver and who is the receiver. Of course, again depending on who is the giver/receiver also determines what term is used to describe it. Indeed, Spain alone provided hundreds of its armed forces to assist the invaders in occupying Iraq, helping along and praising those that had murdered many thousands of innocents in the span of just a couple months' time. A campaign of aggression and murder that you support.

That's what I meant by hyperbolic nonsense, not the act itself..

Not sure who was behind this, though I would spit acid on them if I could. That may sound strange following everything I said above? The other concern seems to be the effect on the markets.. !! Funny, my thoughts are on those harmed.. :shrug: Some of the other responses here are just as ridiculous, though more desperate than malevalent.

[Aidoneus]

43. I only hope that the Ace of Spades reference was caught

I don't expect the above to be fully translated without the decoder device that I possess.. in the interests of keeping it reasonably short I left out reasonable explanations of a couple references.

[macllyr]

12. 911 days between 9-11 and 3-11...

There was exactly 911 days between September 11 2001 and March 11 '04...

Macllyr

[The Blue Knight]

14. Damn.

[kalian]

15. You're kidding, right?

:wow:

[underpants]

17. Wow I knew it was 2 1/2 years ago

Wow that is all I have to say.

[newyawker99]

28. Hi macllyr!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[tedzbear]

32. Can someone verify this?

I am too lazy.

[Aidoneus]

33. counted it out--912

it would only count as 911 if the timezones make that much a difference.. haven't calculated that. What time did it occur?

[wuushew]

34. Its only 912 because 2004 is a leap year

The terrorists probably made a math error. If the years were 2000 and 2003 it would be 911 days.

Timezones don't make a difference, Spain is Eastern time +5 hours. The WTC attacks happened after 8:00 New York Time so it would have been same day in Europe.

[RememberWellstone]

42. strange crap indeed.

I'm not one to talk numerology, but there is something to be said about "coincidences".

[burrowowl]

48. The rest of the world

puts the day then the month, e.g., 11/9/01

[K8-EEE]

16. I Don't Think It Was ETA!!

It does not sound like ETA at all. They always say they did it before it even happens -- why are they silent?

I am terrified for my friend there who was planning on train travel today but not at rush hour I don't think. Good DU vibes to Ellie please. I have no way of reaching her.

Spain would be Al Quaida's easiest "coilition" target -- easy access from No African Islamic countries (Tunisia, Morrocco etc.)

The current front page at El Mundo (Spanish speakers, check out www.elmundo.es) says they are NOT counting Al Quada out.

[varun]

22. It might have been ETA working with Al-Qaeda

http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,658668,00.html

Eta has Stinger missiles bought from Bin Laden

Giles Tremlett in Madrid
Wednesday February 27, 2002
The Guardian

Three Eta members travelled to al-Qaida camps in Afghanistan last year to buy ground-to-air missiles and train in their use, according to a report from an unnamed Arab intelligence service obtained by Tiempo magazine in Spain.
The magazine said the Basque separatists had bought three Stinger missiles, which Spanish intelligence services feared they would try to use to bring down official aircraft carrying government ministers or King Juan Carlos.

Official Spanish documents seen by the Guardian confirm that officials believe Eta has obtained anti-aircraft missiles...

[ParanoidPat]

24. Oh yeah! And Saddam bought TONS of yellow-cake from Nigeria.....

.....and Al Qaida is operating in Venezuela (and Buffalo!), and the WMD's were secretly moved overnight to Libya or was that Iran, oh what the hell, Libya and Iran and Janet's wardrobe failed! :crazy:

FEAR! FEAR! TERROR! RUN AND HIDE! SAVE YOURSELF!
REMEMBER, THERE'S A TERRORIST BEHIND EVERY BUSH*! :evilgrin:

The only thing we have to fear.....are those who try to rule by fear. :)

[mobuto]

29. Uh, Al Qaeda is operating in Buffalo

Who exactly do you think Mukhtar Al-Bakri, Sahim Alwan, Faysal Galab, Shafal Mosed, Yaseinn Taher, Yahya Goba, and Jaber Elbaneh are?

[ParanoidPat]

39. From the 'evidence' that no one's seen.....

.....I'd say some poor schmucks caught up in the wrong movie! :evilgrin:

Sort of like those taxi drivers and goat herders we're holding in Gitmo without charges or evidence of any wrong doing. :(

Time and time again I've seen the 'official' story tweaked and changed, over and over again to make it fit a pattern of some sort, only to come out as totally wrong in the end. I personally don't believe a word from my gubmint any more.

I've known and worked with dozens of people from the middle east over the years, Iraqis, Iranians, Libyans, Egyptians and others, and for the most part, they all were much nicer and more open minded than most Americans I know. I also watched what they went through after 911, the mistreatment they endured when they turned themselves in for questioning at the INS, the deportation of one of them for having donated money to a relief organization on a regular basis. They were all hard working engineers that worked for Fortune 500 companies in Silicon Valley. They were all good people mistreated by my government because of their ethnic background. Believe what you wish, be terrified all you want, but don't expect me to believe a damn thing that comes from this administration.

They've proved to be untrustworthy on everything they've uttered since they were (s)elected. :(

[mobuto]

46. Oh sure, the boys in Gitmo

are innocent goatherders, picked randomly off the streets of Qandahar, where they were attending a sheep-dog convention

Do you really believe this crap?

I've known and worked with dozens of people from the middle east over the years, Iraqis, Iranians, Libyans, Egyptians and others, and for the most part, they all were much nicer and more open minded than most Americans I know.

Ah, isn't that nice? Frankly, I'm surprised you didn't you add "Some of my best friends are Muslims" while you were at it. Could you be more patronizing? Less at ease with the real world?

They were all good people mistreated by my government because of their ethnic background. Believe what you wish, be terrified all you want, but don't expect me to believe a damn thing that comes from this administration.


I've also known people who were deported, and I'll agree with you that the present immigration system needs to be re-worked. But you're not dealing with reality if you don't think there was a reason to be suspicious of persons from certain countries. This has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, or shoe-size, and everything to do with the fact that certain countries produce a lot more terrorists than others.

[ParanoidPat]

47. Yes, and the US tops the list!

For starters, 3 million dead in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia to save us from the evils of Communism. We all know how that worked out. :eyes:

The Korean war killed an estimated 2 million civilians, More than 1.5 million Chinese and North Korean soldiers are thought to have died. The South Korean armed forces lost some 415,000 and the US 33,629 killed or missing. Other UN contingents lost 4,266 including just over 1,600 British and Commonwealth servicemen. British losses were 1,078.

Sources:
The Korean War, 1950-53 Brian Catchpole. - London: Constable, 2000.
The encyclopedia of military history from 3500 B.C. to the present day R. Ernest Dupuy and Trevor N. Dupuy. - rev. ed. - New York: Harper and Row, 1977.
The British part in the Korean War: <2 volumes> Anthony Farrar-Hockley. - London: HMSO, 1990-1995.
Korean war almanac Harry G. Summers, Jr. - New York: Facts on File, 1990.

That's not even to mention Gulf Wars 1 and 2!(Highway of Death ring a bell?) Add to those dozens of other smaller military engagements, covert actions to subvert and overthrow governments and the results of sanctions against countries and I seriously doubt you can find any other country that has killed more innocent civilians than us.

Yeaaaa! We're number one! :evilfrown:

So um, just why are we releasing all of those "terrorists" by the hundreds if they really are guilty of something? :shrug:

IIRC, there were well over 1000 'terror suspects' held at Guantanamo Bay. How many actually turned out to be terrorists?

[Jacobin]

20. Why is it farfetched to speculate that it may be al qaida?

Spain has troops in Iraq.

A spanish embassy was bombed by them recently in Morocco.

What's the deal with people who deny that they are attacking countries who support the invasion of muslim countries?

[ParanoidPat]

27. Once again, could you post a link, any link, where anyone here denied.....

.....that "they are attacking countries who support the invasion of muslim countries"? :shrug: :evilgrin: You know you can't because no one has.
Your little 'straw man' just ain't gonna work. :(

The issue is the 'rush to judgment' of who's responsible for this act before an investigation has even begun or one shred of evidence has been collected or produced. :)

Remember Iraq? You know, early last year when all sorts of claims and "evidence" were being bandied about in the press? Remember when fully 80 some % of Americans believed that Saddam had something to do with 911?

Most of those people aren't stupid so how do you suppose they came to such a flawed conclusion? A conclusion many still hold as the truth today despite all of the subsequent evidence to the contrary. Could it have anything to do with the way the press handled the delivery of the 'facts' as they were handed to them instead of applying some critical thinking and analysis before reporting them?

It's dangerous to blindly accept early speculation from anyone in this era due to the massive polarization taking place in society. The left says one thing and the right says the opposite. The truth is usually to be found somewhere in between.

Beware of either / or choices. It was either the ETA or it was Al Qaida. Since the ETA usually warns beforehand then it must be Al Qaida!
Brilliant, logical, and possibly totally false!

Take all you see and hear in the press with a grain of salt until such a time as adequate evidence has been presented from both sides.

[worldgonekrazy]

23. what might the bush admin have to gain from this?

i'm not saying that they are, but if the bush admin were setting up al-qaeda on this, why might they do so? i don't think its a crazy question to ask as the president of spain is another right wingnut and a good buddy of george's.

could it be that obl might be "caught" in the next few days? an episode such as the one today has brought to the forefront in people's minds 9/11 once again. add all that shit about this being 911 days since 9/11 and the possibility just gets freaky.

please tell me i am paranoid. or rather, that my paranoia is not justified.

[Chicago Democrat]

26. 3-11 and 9-11 hmmmm

6 mos to the day

[arcos]

30. yes, and 912 days since 911...

:tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat:

[arcos]

31. There were TEN bombs! I don't think it was ETA... n/t

[ParanoidPat]

35. The use of the word 'hallmark' has me thinking.....

.....hallmark

Noun 1. hallmark - a distinctive characteristic or attribute
stylemark, trademark, earmark
characteristic - a distinguishing quality
2. hallmark - a mark on an article of trade to indicate its origin and authenticity
assay-mark, authentication
marking, mark, marker - a distinguishing symbol; "the owner's mark was on all the sheep"

Pay close attention to how many stories and press entities coincidentally used that exact term.

What exactly makes the characteristics of this attack an Al Qaida "hallmark"? Carrying out coordinated attacks with multiple explosions has been done for years by groups as diverse as anti abortion groups, the IRA, Hamas as well as Al Qaida. Hell, even the US gubmint does it, remember 'shock and awe'? So why would so many different entities all simultaneously choose exactly the same word that denotes a distinctive characteristic or attribute to a situation that is not all that distinctive?

Does anyone else find this just a little too convenient? :shrug:

[Matilda]

38. What I'm seeing in most of these posts is cynicism.

Hardly surprising. Whoever it is, and whatever the reason, most
of us aren't going to believe it just because our leaders say so.
It's good that we've learned to question everything, but also
frightening that we have to.

[ParanoidPat]

40. Yeah, I know what you mean.

:evilfrown: I still can't quite get over the feeling that there's something staged about the use of that word. It was all over the news tonight. The funniest part though, was right after they used it on BBC World News, they went on to point out that the explosives used were of the same type traditionally used by the ETA, but somehow that's not a 'hallmark', just a tradition. :shrug: :crazy:

[foo_bar]

44. it's a conspiracy to boost tinfoil sales

Volume on the New York Stock Exchange hit 1.88 billion shares, the heaviest in more than a month. Declining issues outnumbered advancing ones by 8 to 3. Only one of the 30 blue-chip stocks that make up the Dow, the aluminum maker Alcoa, ended the day in positive territory

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51553-2004Mar11_2.html

[many a good man]

37. ETA, Al Qaeda & the Spanish elections

Remember elections in Spain are this Sunday. Aznar and his Partido Popular run on their staunch anti-terrorist record. They have long been the strongest advocates of harshly cracking down on ETA. Many believe he joined in the "coalition of the willing" just to get US and UK help in putting ETA on the international terrorism watch list and freezing their funding.

If the attack was by ETA that would just encourage more Spaniards to support his party. On the other hand, if Al Qaeda was to blame, Aznar and the PP look bad for bringing this tragedy upon the country because of his cooperation in the illegal and unpopular war against Iraq.

This attack was most assuredly the work of Al Qaeda. Can we expect a similar act of terror three days before our election in November?

[pinniped]

41. Any bombing with more than one explosion is an Al Qaeda hallmark.

:eyes:

[Yerta Bulti]

45. Not really

The tactic of a second bomb timed to take out the first on the scene is becoming fairly common, unfortunately. I've noticed it in several reportings of Israel bombings as well as the Bali attacks, one small bomb in the nightclub sent people out into the street where the second, bigger bomb went off. Mind you it's arguable that Bali was an AQ bombing, it was definitely related.

Also, Bali (Oct 12 02) was apparently meant to happen one year and one month after 911. Something screwed their plans so they went one day later. So the 911 / 912 days thing might have something to it.

I know I should have a link for the timings reference but I don't have time right now, sorry.

[St. Jarvitude]

49. Oi

I'm starting to feel a little paranoid, seeing as how I'm flying to Austria next week.

:scared: