Explosion at Atocha Railway Station in Madrid

[maddezmom]

MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- At least four explosions have ripped through Madrid's Atocha railway station during morning rush hour -- with one of the blasts hitting a crowded commuter train car, according to Spanish media reports.

SER radio reported many casualties after one of the explosions hit a train arriving at the station from the eastern Madrid suburb of Alcala de Henares.

The first blast struck a vacant train car and soon after a second explosion hit the crowded commuter train, SER reported.

Police and emergency services were evacuating the capital's main Atocha station which serves both city and long-distance trains.

~snip
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/11/spain.blasts/

[maddezmom]

1. update: up to 4 explosions

death toll at 23 and dozens of injured.

[VolcanoJen]

2. CNN reports 23 dead, 50 wounded

The footage from the scene is just crushing.

:-(

[maddezmom]

3. agree

:(

[Zomby Woof]

64. Whomever is responsible

I hope for justice and peace for the families and friends of the fallen and wounded. I have a special affection for the home of my youth.

[WatchWhatISay]

4. Blood on their hands

For the Spanish government that decided to align itself with the
American Terrorist President, in spite of the fact that 90% of Spain's citizens opposed the war.

[VolcanoJen]

5. The reporter on CNN is speculating Basque Seperatists...

... are responsible for this carnage, which has occurred three days before national elections in Spain. Of course it's early, but at present it doesn't seem related to U.S. policy.

[markses]

7. Bullshit

The Basques are known lately for blowing up cars in parking lots after having given police two-hours notice. No fucking way is this ETA.

Al-Quaeda, no question.

[maddezmom]

12. CNNI has now mentioned the possibility of Al Queda n/t

[NickB79]

15. It makes no sense for Al Queda to attack Spain

90% of the Spanish people oppose involvement in Iraq or Bush's "war on terra". Why attack them then? It would be counterproductive.

[arcos]

28. yeah, but the PP is leading in polls...

they are reelecting the party to a third term...

[SoCalDem]

96. Spain's GOVERNMENT supports the war...and BUSH

That's why it makes PERFECT sense.. It's a message.. Side with the US and you are never going to be safe..:(

What we are attempting to engage in is a war of attrition.. The "terrah-ists" will always win.. We have to thwart them 100% of the time to win.. They only have to succeed 1% of the time to "win".. They know that militarily, they could never defeat us, but by threatening disruptive violence against supporters of BUSH , and the US , through him, they win every time..

It's virtually IMPOSSIBLE to live in a "free society" and also be "safe" from people who are willing to blow themselves up , in order to kill more of us than theirs..

The time has come for "advanced" countries to just plain BACK OFF.. Get our troops off of foreign soil.. If these people truly have the support of their people, we certainly do not need to waste our time trying to "christian-ize" them and make them watch MTV and Brittney.. Their own people will deal with them when they become too oppressive..

We are modern... they claim to want no part of it.. Leave them alone..

If they oppress their own people, and yet the people love them for it, and support them, who are WE to tell the rest of the world that they MUST be removed??

Radical Islam is a dangerous force, but poverty is what fuels it.. Instead of blowing stuff up and killing people, why not approach it from a humanitarian angle..

Tourism, trade, and humanitarian aid should be the "three legs of the stool"....instead of bombs, bullets & bases....

How would we feel if the situation were reversed?? Would we appreciate foreigners coming to the US and setting up bases?? What if they disagreed with OUR religion?

Our adventurism is causing a lot of the discord ..and it's spreading..

[stldemocrat]

118. I agree

Bush has stirred up a hornets nest. I guess the one problem for Spain is that the Muslims may want Andalucia back (bin Forgetten specifically had mentioned this once). Spain needs to consider how to better accomodate them.

[arrogantatheist1000]

29. Please stop believing media and governmental lies.

Yep very obviously an al-qaeda attack. Or some other islamic group for that matter.

Classic al-qaeda attack. Multiple attacks on civilian targets to inflict maximum dead.

So far 131 dead and 400 wounded. I expect these numbers to rise significantly and in addition, I expect the final total to cover up the full extent of the carnage.

My theories on why they attacked at this point. Well I have two and they contradict each other unfortunately.

1. To scare people into voting against the pro-war candidate. The socialist candidate in spain has a real chance to win and if this turns enough voters he will be in power in spain and america will lose one of its two remaining allies.

2. To anger the spanish voters into continued support of the war. I know this sounds insane, but the terrorists goal are about bringing western nations deeply into the heart of islam, then using that very occupation to win recruits. Then if they can expel them from the muslim lands they become the 'heros' and the liberators.

When America went into Iraq it was the best thing that ever happened to al-qaeda and the other groups in that nation. A leader in Ansar al-Islam said recently they can't keep up with how many people are volunteering to join them now. Mostly people who have suffered from the americans. Al-qaeda has at least some presence in Iraq now. And beyond that many other groups are moving in.

Without the western nations militarily taking out these governments these militants have no chance of overthrowing the governments themselves. They could maybe assasinate one of the leaders but that would be counter productive. The new leader would not have the built up hatred the old one did, even if he came from the exact same 'ruling elite.'

So they use the western intervention to kill off their internal enemies, then they use the victims of the american attacks as recruits. Their hope is to eventualy overwhelm the occupation, but not until the americans have taken out many governments so they have a wide foothold.

As you can tell I'm not exactly sure what their strategy is. But one thing is certain is that their actions are very calculated. These are not fools we are fighting, sometimes their zealotry in other areas gives the wrong impression when we think of their tactics. They are quite sophisticated, and the top people like bin Laden have quite an understanding of the nature of people.

To me the most likely answer is that it probably is an attempt to scare spaniards away from voting for the pro-war candidate. This is a flawed idea, just as flawed as American thinking that bombing people will make them not want to fight us. It works if you are so powerful that they view it as futile to fight you. If you project anything less it is a very dangerous move.

I believe this is also why the attack seems to have targeted multiple things at the same instant. This was clearly to show that it was an al-qaeda attack. Time and again the western governments have denied that attacks were the work of terrorists even with clear evidence. Such as two flight 800 and multiple planes downed across africa, to islamic snipers and an anthrax attack in the center of american power. I should get the list there is many more likely terrorist actions.

The head investigator for twa said that by covering up a terrorist attack on their airline the government was forcing terrorists into an action so dramatic that no one could deny that it was terrorists. He said this in 2000, the media of course didn't cover it.

The terrorists are well aware that anything non major will be denied. That is why they are not doing as many attacks on western targets but instead going for large ones, like the bali bombings. Which by the way looked remarkably like this. Those bombings resulted in over 150 dead australians and 50 dead british. Along with 100's of wounded westerners.

At the time australia was heavily publicly supporting the war. This looks like the same sort of action. Its amazing that the media and government leaders can claim that this isn't islamic terrorists with a straight face. What blows me away is that people who know how badly the media and our governments lie to us still believe it.

Think about the spaniards saying this is ETA. Its is their government that has been so pro-war, it is THEIR government that has dragged spain into this. In other words it ultimately rests on their shoulders the dead. And the election is 3 days away. Clearly timed to coincide with the election. For them they must cover it up and hope that know one finds out the truth or their government is doomed. The opposition who as it has been said, is running on an anti-war platform only needs to say: 'We are incredibly saddened by this loss of life. We give our sincerest condolences to the families of the dead and the wounded. We truly wish that spain had never become involved in this war.' And the government would be theirs.

By lying about who did this the current government hopes that if the opposition tries to blame this on al-qaeda they will look desperate and heartless.. using others suffering for their own gain and wrongly at that. Please don't believe this sad move by the current spanish government to cling onto power. Take this for what it is: A major al-qaeda strike on an enemy population.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

31. Agree -- & FWIW, ETA are denying it which is not at all their MO. nt

[maddezmom]

41. here's the denial:

~snip~
The BBC's defence correspondent Jonathan Marcus says in the absence of an Eta claim of responsibility, there will inevitably be continuing speculation about other potential actors.

Spain's strong support for Britain and the United States in the run-up to war with Iraq could make Spain a target in the eyes of shadowy Islamic groups.

Such a suggestion has already been made by the leader of the banned Basque separatist party Batasuna, who denied that Eta could have been behind the attacks.

Arnald Otegi pointed the finger instead at what he called "the Arab resistance".

But for Spain's leaders, Eta remains the main suspect.

~snip~

more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3500452.stm

[Eurobabe]

50. be surprised if this was ETA

n/t

[M155Y_A1CH]

62. Older evidence?

Here is a 2002 USA Today report that backs your claim.

FBI: Al-Qaeda may try to attack trains

The FBI released a chillingly specific warning Thursday based on intelligence gathered from al-Qaeda prisoners this month. Officials said terrorists may try to attack by bringing a bomb on board a train, demolishing a rail bridge as a passenger train approaches, derailing a train by damaging a rail bed or pulling a truck loaded with explosives across a rail line.

Terrorists also could target hazardous-material containers, the alert said. It cited recently discovered al-Qaeda photographs of U.S. railroad engines, cars and crossings.
more:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-10-24-terror-warning_x.htm

[gorgan]

111. Eta Expert Has Doubts

From an article
in today's Guardian:

As it was, however, the scale of the bombings 
shocked even the most seasoned Eta-watchers. 
Professor Paul Heywood, of the School of Politics
 at Nottingham University, said: 
"This is way, way bigger than anything 
Eta has ever done before." 

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. There is no rational defense for this terror

[DemBones DemBones]

6. I hope that it was ETA (the Basques) and not something Bush* can

blame on Al Qaeda. I think that he and his crew have promoted Osama as the Uber-Bogeyman and made it seem that terrorism is some new enemy we must fight.

In reality, the Basques have been doing their terrorist gig in Spain since 1968, and that's just as ETA. The IRA has done a lot of bombings in the UK. Italy has had terrorism that was related to the Mafia (pro- and con-) and to both communism and anarchism, as I recall. The Philippines has had Muslim terrorists for more than 50 years, back before Osama was born, and Communist rebels/ terrorists as well. The eternal question: terrorists or freedom fighters?

The loss of innocent life is tragic. Spanish commuters, like workers at the WTC, have become pawns sacrificed to advance a cause. And 3 days before an election. . .

[maddezmom]

8. CNNI is speculating it's ETA

and the death toll is rising rapidly.

[markses]

11. Doesn't make sense

Gut feeling perhaps. I don't buy ETA. Not their style lately, and counter-productive in the extreme.

[maddezmom]

13. at this point, no one knows

but the reporter on CNNI has mentioned the possibility it could have been Al Queda, because of the coordinated nature of the attacks.

[Art_from_Ark]

63. "Coordinated nature" doesn't mean diddly

Lots of highly organized terrorist groups have executed series of coordinated attacks. The Tokyo subway attack, for example, was a coordinated effort by the home-grown Aum Shinrikyo group. The Red Brigades in Italy launched coordinated attacks against Italian targets, as did the PKK against Turkish targets. No doubt other groups, like the IRA, have also launched coordinated attacks.

[VolcanoJen]

18. CNN just interviewed Gustavo Aristegui...

... a Basque member of parliament, who says ETA is clearly to blame. He was quite shaken in the interview.

Again, there's no way of confirming who is responsible for this horrible act at this time.... we'll just have to wait and see. It does seem like an incredibly counterproductive act for ETA or Al-Qaeda.

What's troubling to me is the precise, coordinated, multiple bombings, which is a signature of Al-Qaeda. It was also just mentioned that in previous ETA attacks, a warning was almost always provided. This morning's attack came without notice. With Spanish troops in Iraq, it's not out of the question that this attack could be somehow related to Al-Qaeda.

[markses]

72. ETA warns

I'm open to being proven wrong, but this thing just smells like al-Quaeda. ETA wouldn't dare pull an operation like this.

Also, I think we have a skewed view of what is "productive" and "counterproductive" for terrorists like al-Quaeda. They are not concerned with popular opinion or electoral results in Western countries. they are concerned merely to show their Arab recruiting pool that they can strike at times and places of their choosing. It doesn't matter to al-Quaeda if the Spanish people were substantially against the war in Iraq (and they were - you could not go 15 feet in Madrid last March without seeing "NO A LA GUERRA" plastered, painted, or pamphleted somewhere; it was quite a display), nor do they care if the populace will be "turned against" Islam in general. They care only that they are operationally effective. The means become the ends, in other words, as in all fascisms (including US fascism).

[KissMyAsscroft]

9. Its BAsque Seperatists.

The police had stopped a similar attempt on a train on Christmas Eve.

[maddezmom]

14. and again on 2/29

`snip~
On February 29 police intercepted a Madrid-bound van packed with more than 1,100 pounds of explosives, and blamed ETA. On Christmas Eve, police thwarted an attempted bombing at Chamartin, another Madrid rail station, and arrested two suspected ETA members.
~snip~


more:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4502950/

[maddezmom]

10. update according to Spanish TVE

Madrid Blasts Kill 50 People on Trains, Spanish TVE Reports

March 11 (Bloomberg) -- Madrid trains crowded with morning commuters were hit by three explosions that have killed about 50 people, Spanish television station TVE reported. Police said they suspect they were terrorist bombs.

Spain's Red Cross said at least 200 people were injured.

Three bombs were detonated almost simultaneously between 7:30 a.m. and 8 a.m. near three train stations, a National Police spokeswoman said. The stations were El Pozo, Santa Eugenia, and Atocha, which is Madrid's main hub serving southern cities.
~snip~
more: http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000102&sid=aBT3l1SegfBQ&refer=uk

[VolcanoJen]

16. New Explosions in Madrid; Death Toll now at 60+

The CNN correspondent was live from Madrid, just reported a new explosion. He says it may have been a controlled explosion, as police were hurrying people away from the area.

Reuters reports that at least 60 have been killed.

[La_Serpiente]

17. 60 People Killed in Madrid Explosions

60 People Killed in Madrid Explosions


MADRID, Spain - Powerful explosions ripped through three Madrid train stations during Thursday morning rush hour, killing at least 60 people and injuring dozens just days before national elections.


There was no claim of responsibility, but suspicions fell on the armed Basque separatist group ETA. The Interior Ministry said that at least 60 killed were killed.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040311/ap_on_re_eu/spain_explosion&cid=518&ncid=716

[non sociopath skin]

22. The Guardian update seems to suggest that ETA is to blame

http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1166996,00.html

The skin

[Robin Hood]

19. I will be surprised if it's the Basque separatists.

The way that the bombings were conducted it does smell like the work of Al Qaeda.

[arcos]

20. March 11th... 6 months after (or before) Sept 11...

fucked up date...

[VolcanoJen]

21. Interesting point...

... and something that not a single journalist has yet mentioned.

That's creepy, arcos. Good thinking... but it's scary.

:-(

[arcos]

23. yes, it's scary...

whether it is coincidence or not. :-(

[arcos]

24. update: 131 dead n/t

[maddezmom]

26. just saw that on BBC

Madrid Security Chief is confirming 131 dead. :(

[arrogantatheist1000]

30. good observation... What date were the bali bombings on?

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

46. October 12th (which got my dad convinced

they'd be another massive attack on November 13th last year)

[AP]

48. Also, 4 explosions -- there were four planes on 9/11.

[keithyboy]

57. What this attack says loud and clear is that the world IS NOT safer

since Bush launched his war on terror. On the contrary, the world and the US is much worse off because the terrorists, once disperse groups with individual agendas, have now come together in an organized way against the US and its allies. We may be feared but we are no longer respected, trusted, or admired. Fear only makes you strike back and the terrorists could say that they are launching their own brand of "pre-emption" in response to an all out declaration of war by the Bush regime.

[La_Serpiente]

25. It comes just in time for the election

Spain Conservatives Ride High Pre-Election

MADRID, Spain - For a political party that dragged Spain kicking and screaming into the Iraq (news - web sites) war, the ruling conservatives head into Sunday's general election looking oddly buoyant

In fact, they're watching with glee as the opposition Socialists nurse a self-inflicted wound in Spain's other war — against violent Basque separatism — and they are favored to win a third straight term.

<snip>

The Socialist candidate for prime minister is the largely untested Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, a 43-year-old lawyer who had hoped to capitalize on people's fury over Spain's fervent support for the Iraq war. The country contributed no combat troops, but has sent 1,300 peacekeepers and 11 have died.

<snip>

The fiasco unfolded in the Catalonia region, where nationalist and separatist sentiment is strong. Independence advocate Josep Carod Rovira, whose party rules in coalition with the Socialists, admitted slipping across the border into France to meet with members of the armed Basque separatist group ETA. This violated an accord among major parties ruling out talks with ETA.

more...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&ncid=732&e=10&u=/ap/20040310/ap_on_re_eu/spain_elections

[arcos]

27. Rajoy is live on TV right now... he's suspending his campaign n/t

[arrogantatheist1000]

32. Update: ETA political leaders deny responsibility.. developing

'ETA?s political leaders claim Basque group is not responsible for Thursday?s deadly bomb attacks on Madrid?s railway system.'

This from debka.com. Debka has some pretty out there analisys, but its live coverage is top notch. If anything big goes on in the world, they are the first site I check out, as they are very up to date. They are always the first to report on events in Iraq for example.

They are also small enough that they don't have to go through a lot of the 'buerocracy' to get things on their page.

Also it seems it was 3 commuter trains struck at the same time. There seems to be some discrepancy with some news outlets saying 4 and some saying 3.

[bushisanidiot]

33. Who Benefits From This Attack? Will It be used as a campaign prop

as AWOL uses 9/11?

if it was A.Q., who hired them?

[La_Serpiente]

34. From ElMundo

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2004/03/11/espana/1078996915.html

600 people are in Madrid hospitals

It is mostly about the locations of where the wounded were taken.

[maddezmom]

35. latest on BBC 170 dead n/t

[arrogantatheist1000]

37. Good find.

The only interesting media reports on events I find happen within the first 4 hours.

The night twa flight 800 went down I was glued to Cnn. They were interviewing people on the beach that said they saw a missile go up and bring the plane down.

The people were pretty shaken up and telling it like it was. Of course after those 4 hours the 'officials' took over and from then on all we got were the official lines.

Also things like wounded and dead the government invents ways to bring the numbers down over time. Or just stops mentioning things like wounded. (obviously for twa flight 800 this wasn't an issue).

Also the best analysys of 9'11 happened during that day. Like far reaching questions about 'blow back' and clashes of civilizations. Once the officials grab control its all about an 'evil' man and his 'evil' intentions. And how we must further bring war into that region. No debate on whether or not that is a great idea, especialy in light of the 'blow back.'

[La_Serpiente]

36. Photos

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2004/03/11/espana/1079003714.html

[La_Serpiente]

38. ETA to Blame for Madrid Blasts, Spanish Minister Says

ETA to Blame for Madrid Blasts, Spanish Minister Says

MADRID (Reuters) - Basque separatist guerrillas ETA are to blame for the killing of more than 60 people in explosions on packed rush-hour trains in Madrid Thursday, a government minister said.

"There are dozens of victims ... and the killers are trying to sow even more terror, spreading chaos... This is a collective killing by the criminal band which is ETA," Eduardo Zaplana, labor minister and official government spokesman, told Cadena Ser radio station.

The pre-election attacks are the worst ever by the separatist group.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040311/wl_nm/spain_explosions_blame_dc_1

[arrogantatheist1000]

43. wow that media is crazy.

Look at the wording. 'The pre-election attacks are the worst ever by the separatist group.'

They are already declaring guilt before the smoke clears. And the group itself is saying it wasn't involved.

Its one thing to do an honest investigation and find out yes it was elements of this group or that one. But there has been no investigation so far, and the majority of the evidence points away for them.

Yet already the government in Spain is declaring guilt.

[Judi Lynn]

39. Of course an Operation Northwoods-like plan

would have been out of the question. The very fact anyone has heard about it happening here, thoughtfully considered and agreed upon by our own Joint Chiefs of Staff is simply a hallucination on our parts.

The fact that knowledge of our Operations Northwoods comes to us through the Freedom of Information Act would suggest the man who sought this knowledge probably worked for Al Queda!

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html

[La_Serpiente]

40. Eurostocks Sink 3 Pct on Madrid Blasts

Eurostocks Sink 3 Pct on Madrid Blasts

LONDON (Reuters) - European shares sank three percent by late morning on Thursday after Arnaldo Otegi, a Basque nationalist leader, said he did not believe ETA was responsible for a series of blasts in Madrid that have killed at least 131 people.

Otegi said the attacks could have been "an operation by sectors of the Arab resistance," raising fears in financial markets the blasts were the work of al Qaeda.

"We were down on the back of Wall Street first thing, and then with this thinking that maybe ETA's not responsible for this but it may be Al Qaeda or another terrorist group, the market's really suffered a lot of downwards momentum," said one dealer.

By 6:43 a.m. EST, the DJ Euro Stoxx 50 index was down 3.2 percent at 2,827 points.

"That ETA is possibly not behind these attacks is putting additional strain on the markets," said one German trader.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040311/bs_nm/markets_europe_stocks_dc_7

[La_Serpiente]

42. El Mundo

173 now dead

711 wounded

[Democat]

44. Aren't the ETA Christian terrorists?

What will Bush say?

[La_Serpiente]

45. NY Times

Blasts Come Days Before General Elections

MADRID, Spain (AP) -- Powerful explosions rocked three Madrid train stations Thursday just days before Spain's general elections, killing 131 rush-hour commuters and wounding more than 400 in what officials called the deadliest attack ever by the Basque separatist group ETA.

``This is a massacre,'' government spokesman Eduardo Zaplana said.

Two bombs exploded around 7:30 a.m. local time in a commuter train arriving at Atocha station, a bustling hub for subway and longer-distance trains in Spain's capital. Single blasts also rocked trains or platforms at two stations on a commuter line leading to Atocha.

``If anyone was in doubt, this shows the true nature of ETA, a Nazi organization which tortures and murders people,'' said Gaspar Llamazares, leader of the United Left party.

Other Spanish officials and media also blamed ETA. But Arnold Otegi, leader of Batasuna, an outlawed Basque party linked to the armed separatist group, denied it was behind the blasts and suggested ``Arab resistance'' elements were responsible.

more...

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Spain-Explosion.html?hp

Free Registration Required

[La_Serpiente]

47. The European Union declares March 11 as the European day

of the victims of terrorism

Los atentados terroristas perpetrados esta mañana en Madrid han causado una gran consternación en el Parlamento Europeo, que ha decidido declarar este sangriento día, el 11 de marzo, como Día Europeo de las Víctimas del Terrorismo. El presidente de la Eurocámara, Pat Cox, ha dicho éstas palabras en español: "No más bombas, no más muertos. Entre todos acabaremos con los terroristas".
Cox, que ha trasladado a la prensa sus sentimientos de "indignación" y "profunda tristeza" en nombre de todos los europeos. Además, el presidente de la institución ha ordenado que las banderas española y europea sean colocadas a media asta en el edificio del Parlamento.

Pat Cox ha realizado una declaración institucional en la que ha asegurado que "el terrorismo es un cáncer y necesita una respuesta conjunta". Tras sus palabras, el pleno parlamentario ha guardado dos minutos de silencio.

http://www.elpais.es/articulo.html?d_date=&xref=20040311elpepunac_15&type=Tes&anchor=elpporesp

The terrorist attack perpetuated this morning in Mardird has caused such a great consternation in the Europena Parliament, it has decided to declare this bloody day, the 11th of march, as the European DAy of the Victims of Terrorism. The president of the Eurocamara, Pat Cox, has said these words in Spanish:
No more bombs, no more deaths. We will all put an end to the terrorists" and the "profound sadness" in the name of all europeans. Moreover, the president of the institution had ordered that all the Spanish and European flags be lowered to half-staff in the Parliament building.

Pat Cox has made a institutional declaration which assures that "terrorism is a cancer and needs a combined response". After his words, the paliamentary (?) kept silent for two minutes.

My translation is a little shaky.

[Eurobabe]

49. premonition...

My youngest daughter and I were supposed to go to Spain over her winter break (March 4-12). I cancelled the ticket about 3 weeks ago. When she and I talked about going in January, I had a very uneasy feeling, like something was telling me not to, and I have learned to honor my own intuition. So we bagged the trip.

This morning, upon awaking, I heard the news on NPR, and it shot a wave of shivers down my spine, we would have been there returning to Madrid by train from Seville to make our flight home.

Terrible tragedy for Spain and Europe.

[arrogantatheist1000]

106. Wow. I dont' know you but I am still very glad you didn't go.

You could very easily have been on that train. In fact arguably likely on that train at that time.

Your intuition, which possibly came from your understanding of current events literally saved your life and your daughters. People tell me its pointless to think about terrorism as it will never get you anyway. But this is a great example of thinking something is dangerous actualy saving your own life because of it.

[Bridget Burke]

51. BBCamerica commentators were eager for an Al Qaeda link

They pointed out several times that Spain had stood with the US & Britain against Iraq. Therefore, Iraq = Al Qaeda. Yet another battle in the War on Terror(TM)?

Before the dead & wounded had been counted, they were sure that ETA was not to blame--or not solely to blame. The Spanish sources mentioned recent threats from ETA. Mostly, the Spaniards were still trying to figure out the details of this great crime rather than look for layers of political meaning.

If this attack is linked to Al Qaeda, who benefits? Which side in the upcoming election? Which foreign ally?

[maddezmom]

52. same on BBCWorld

seems like they were pushing the Al Queda link?

[KDLarsen]

61. What was Straws comment?

I watched BBC World a bit during lunch, and a bit of the interview of Jack Straw - but I had to go just as the reporter went down the A.Q. route, and I was wondering what Jack Straw replayed?

[maddezmom]

65. Straw stated: he understood the attacks were the work of ETA n/t

[KDLarsen]

68. Thanks!

.. I figured that he would be eager to jump the A.Q. bandwagon, especially since this attacks really have very few ETA trademarks.

I guess the official line have been laid down now, eh?

[maddezmom]

check out this article:

~snip~

European stock markets fell sharply on fears the attack was the work of Islamic militants. The September 11 attacks on the U.S. led to sharp falls in global markets in 2001 and were blamed for deepening a worldwide economic slump.

Some experts on ETA said the bombings did not fit ETA's usual profile for attacks. The guerrilla group has frequently phoned ahead to warn of its plans.

In October, two audiotapes purportedly from al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden said the militant group had the "right to respond at any suitable time and place" against those countries with forces in Iraq. Spain was among the countries listed.

If ETA were responsible, it would be the worst attack ever by the group, exceeding the 21 killed in a supermarket blast in Barcelona in 1987.

~snip~
more: http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId=833651&tw=wn_wire_story

[rman]

54. perfect timing

"131 dead, 400 wounded"
"...leader of the Basque movement Batasuna connected to ETA says the purpatrators must be sought in muslim circles.."
"... in recent years attacks by ETA have been directed primarily at officials..."

"... next sunday there are elections in Spain.."

(source: local teletext, Netherlands)

So there's a few hints this may not be the work of ETA.

Current Spanish govt is in favor of Bush's various wars, however millions of voters took to the streets in protest.

tinfoil: this is a false-flag operation to coherce Spanish voters to choose for a hard crackdown wrt "the war on terror"; please hand over your civil rights etc.

[Minstrel Boy]

58. In elections next week, to whom are jittery voters likely to turn?

The right.

Italy's fascist P2 Lodge - to which Silvio Berlusconi was a member, and George HW Bush an honorary member - engineered similar feats attributed to "the Red Brigade" to discredit the Italian left in the 1970s.

The same thing will happen in Canada before our general election. Until now I'd feared it; now I'm resigned to it. And what will happen to the left vote? It will flee to the right's message of heightened "security."

Go ahead, call me crazy. Just wait for it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

55. I have family in Madrid -- shaking like gelatine -- all is well with them.

Just checked my sister over the phone. Everything a-OK.

Whew. :scared:

[soup]

59. So glad you you were able to get through

and that your family is ok.

A bit of good news in the midst of horror.

Take a deep breath. :hug:

[soup]

56. Any connection with AZF?

Posted on Wed, Mar. 03, 2004
Bomb Threat Prompts Check of French Rail

JOHN LEICESTER

Associated Press


PARIS - Nearly 10,000 rail workers hunted for bombs along thousands of miles of train tracks in France on Wednesday, after a little-known group threatened attacks unless it is paid millions of dollars.

Information from the group, called AZF, led to the recovery Feb. 21 of an explosive device buried in the bed of a railway line near Limoges in central France, the government said.

Tests showed the bomb was powerful enough to rupture the track, the government said. It was made from a mixture of diesel fuel and nitrates and had a sophisticated detonator, according to judicial officials who spoke on condition of anonymity.

AZF "presents itself as a 'pressure group with terrorist characteristics,'" the Interior Ministry said. Police do not believe the group is connected to Islamic terrorism.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/consumer_news/8094195.htm

----------

Update March 8, 2004

>snip<
The shadowy group has remained silent for a week and has not carried out threats to start exploding bombs, although its demands were made public last week against its wishes.

An anonymous telephone caller claiming to represent the group, which goes by the name AZF, prompted officials to evacuate the station at Poitiers in western France late on Monday, railway officials said. It was not clear whether the claim was genuine.

The station was cleared, causing five high-speed trains and a Paris-Madrid overnight express to be delayed, but they had no immediate evidence that a bomb had been planted, they said.

The authorities are trying to re-establish contact with the AZF, which says it has hidden 10 bombs under the country's 32,000 km (20,000 miles) of tracks and will explode them one by one unless it is paid about $5 million.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L08667346.htm

----------

I've been following this because my son is scheduled to go to France in two weeks for Spring Break.

[Pale Blue Dot]

60. Today's the day Bush* breaks ground on the 9/11 memorial

Just announced on CNN.

I'm just throwing this out there. :tinfoilhat:

[ignatius]

I get your drift. Coups in Haiti,an attempt on the Congo,Venezuela

probably next,a huge attack right before elections that would scare the population into voting for the pro war candidates..

Odd, are they connected somehow and what would be the glue?

[hang a left]

66. I guess it will give the rotten *sob something to talk about.

It would be very easy to mimic Al Queda since their hallmarks are well know. This was a professional job. I am breaking out the 'value pack' of reynolds wrap as we speak.

[bushisanidiot]

67. Does Anyone Know Where The Names Of The Victims

might be listed as they are known???

My wife has a very close friend in Madrid.. she visited her last year around this time and got to see the huge protests...

Gawd..

[muriel_volestrangler]

79. BBC report lists a couple of numbers in Spain

"Emergency numbers for worried relatives
(00 34) 900 200 222
(00 34) 915 767 000"

(00 is the international prefix in the UK). I don't know if that's the British Embassy, or a Spanish government number - if the former, it may only have details of British casualties. And you may need to say you're a relative, not a friend.

[July]

80. Found a list

at El Pais online.

Go to www.elpais.es/comunes/2004/madrid/

Upper right of page is a box with emergency telephone numbers.

On the far right, you can click on the "listado provisional de heridos" (provisional list of the injured), which gives first and last names and where they are (e.g., Hospital Gregorio Maranon -- sorry can't do the tilde). I don't know if it includes the dead.

[bushisanidiot]

101. Thanks.

so far, her name is not on the list. i think i'll go home on my lunch hour to call this woman's mom (who lives in the states) to see if she's heard from her.

[patcox2]

69. Reichstag Fire

Just read "best of friends," and it sure will put the tinfoil hat on you.

An attack in Europe could be very good news for Bush. Message: See, I was right all along, those French Cowards were wrong, the US is safer, you don't see them attacking us here. And meanwhile, the political impact in Europe will be to stampede them into support for the Holy War On Terror, as Pat Cox, my namesake, the president of the european parliament, is already sounding the call.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

77. It makes sense to me.

:tinfoilhat:

[mobuto]

84. Why am I not surprised?

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

81. Certainly a possibility to keep in mind.

The alacrity of the media response and assignment of
guilt are notable.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

85. I have no evidence so far to rely on. But anything's possible.

They already had fascists in control once. Many of them are part of the ruling party now. Maybe it's ETA (doesn't seem like their thing though). I can only hope it's not anyone with Middle Eastern ties either. They are already hated enough over there.

[mobuto]

91. How is your lack of evidence here

different from the lack of evidence to suggest US complicity in all of those other terrorist attacks that you've said we set up in order to frame all those innocent Al Qaeda folks?

Aha! The one common thread linking all these conspiracies is the fact that there is NO EVIDENCE to support them. And as Don Rumsfeld would say, Absence of Evidence is Not Evidence of Absence. So therefore, the fact that there is no evidence to support your suspicions should be interpreted as damning proof that they're correct.

Or something like that.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

93. I said this when?

"you've said we set up in order to frame all those innocent Al Qaeda folks?"

Don't put words in my mouth ever again kid. Just 'cause I schooled you the other day. You don't have to try and start shit with me. As I said. At this point anythin's possible. So go on about your business of defending Bush and his Crime Family.

[bemildred]

94. Bombs don't leave a lot of evidence that makes guilt obvious.

The argument that it is "al Qaeda's MO" has some weight, if you
believe there is such a thing as al Qaeda and that it is a
unitary body with MOs and tendencies etc. I reserve judgement
on that. It is true that there was a tape promising something big
released recently. I am skeptical about ETA too. It is certainly
politically convenient in the same way that the 9/11 attack was,
but that means nothing by itself. Nevertheless, the historical
record shows clearly that governments are entirely capable of
carrying out these sorts of actions against themselves for political
purposes. "Remember the Maine".

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

95. Like I said. There are many possibilities.

For all we know Saddam Hussein's cousin's roommate did it. It makes no sense at all. Not that blowing up people ever does.

[bemildred]

98. Agreed. nt

[IronLionZion]

70. death toll up to 173 from CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/11/spain.blasts/index.html

They're thinking it is Basque ETA not Al Qaida.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

73. Now 186 dead, 1000 wounded. This fucking sucks. nt

[markses]

74. So, the death toll exceeds the Oklahoma City Bombing

This is a horror.

Let's hope its not a trial run for the Paris Metro, the London Underground, the BART and the NYC subway system.

I remember taking the subway (not my usual N or R, but the M), in the first week after 9/11, when they reopened lower Manhattan and I could get to work. I was sure they were going to be bombed.

Then when the N and R reopened (missing the Cortland street station, of course), the worst moments would be when two trains came in at the same time. The routine decision of choosing which train would leave the station first became a tortured decision - what if I pick the wrong one, maybe the last one? I guess you could say that I was too close to my skin in those first heady weeks after the attack.

[leftynyc]

76. You're braver than I am

It took me a year to get on the subway and it still makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

[nodehopper]

86. to this day

I twitch if the train stops in the tunnel underground, or especially if the lights go out. I have my own little neurotic habits, like I try to avoid Union Square during rush hour and I try to take the JMZ to Manhattan when I can because going over the bridge freaks me out less than being under the river...I know lots of people who have their own little subway "things"--people just don't really talk about them.

[Barrett808]

71. Remember, the world is *safer* without Saddam

Safer.

[Muddleoftheroad]

75. What does that have to do with anything?

Since this appears to be the work of internal terrorists.

With or without Saddam, the world has always had its share of villainy.

[Bridget Burke]

88. Because BBC commentators were trying to make links....

Saying that Al Qaeda may have been involved. Pointing out that Spain was allied with the US & UK against Iraq. Obviously (to them) Al Qaeda = Iraq. Another glorious battle in the ongoing War on Terror(TM).

Making political hay out of this dreadful crime before the bodies have even been counted.

[markses]

90. While many seem eager to jump on the ETA angle

It doesn't quite make sense, given their history. I don't think it is clear now that it was "internal" terrorists. We'll have to wait for the smoke to clear.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

78. If you have a Spanish embassy...

in your area, condolences would be appreciated. I will always remember how our embassies were swarmed with people signing books and laying flowers after 9/11.

In San Francisco, the Spanish embassy is at 1405 Sutter Street.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

82. I've lost touch with most of my family's friends there. I hope they're OK.

I have been hoping to move there sometime within the year.

[mobuto]

83. Deepest Condolences to the Spanish People

Some of the comments on this thread are tasteless in the extreme. Spain has just been the victim of a horrific terrorist attack, and I wish them the best of luck in apprehending the perpetrators.

[markses]

89. Agreed

Just called my brother, who spent two years in Madrid. he hadn't heard about it (busy with work), but got frantic when I told him. He has folks over there. I visited him there last March in the run up to the war (NO A LA GUERRA! NO A LA GUERRA!). I met wonderful people.

You are right to offer condolences here (finally), rather than defaulting to absurdist tinfoils. DU was remiss not to do so earlier.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

92. if only they had color-coded threat levels

this might have been prevented. <sarcasm>

what goes through the minds of people who sit and make these bombs.

do they gleefully picture the horror. i just can't understand it.

edit: sarcasm

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stldemocrat]

121. photoshop

could you please photoshop that right wing idiot, and put a Cubs shirt on him?

;)

[bemildred]

100. Welcome to DU.

Please enjoy your stay.
:hi:

[arrogantatheist1000]

102. Our media the liars. WAKE UP people!!

It seems very very unlikely that this was the work of eta. Never before have they not given a pre call in. Never before have they not taken responsibility.

Simultaneous attacks, designed for maximum civilian dead is not their MO.

All the evidence I've seen points towards some middle eastern terror network.

I was reading the stories 'live' and within 45 minutes of the bombings they were already proclaiming guilt. No investigation, no evidence, and even someone without much knowledge of terror the evidence points away from ETA.

Let me say something, from the facts so far I would point towards al-qaeda. But there is a huge difference between people like me who are concerned about security and our media. I don't jump to conclusions. I always say it looks very likely it was al-qaeda from what little we know now.

They were pronouncing guilt within 45 minutes. They also have a political interest in it not being al-qaeda. It was this government that brought spain to Iraq and elsewhere in the muslim world. It was this government that even when the world was not willing to back american aggression, spain went behind it.

Spain is now being shown what the price of support is in this new world we live in. This is called war. In war the enemy fights back. This isn't the western world against tiny serbia.

I fully expected the freepers to buy these lies. Most of them were going with the 'official' line the second it came out with no skepticism. Convincing freeptards that a government may not be telling them the truth, is like convincing the earth to give up her gravitational pull. You can give her compelling resasons.. she still ain't going to do it. I've seen freepers have to come face to face with two different governments telling different stories. They start acting like Ah-nold when he was dressed up as that woman, sneaking onto mars, in total recall.

Here on DU we question things, we dont' take it blindly. The Spanish government has many many reasons to lie about this. So does the european union, they even said that they hope it isn't al-qaeda because then stocks will go down. And the euro will go down. These are the same people who control the regulatory bodies for the media. In other words they control things. What they 'hope' was the real story becomes the real story.

And the Spanish government itself, if this was al-qaeda to voters it would be clear evidence that the costs for spain being involved in this war are too high. The opposition socialist was running on an anti-war platform. He wants to pull Spain out of the war. A horrific bombing like this with 1200 casualties could very well give him the government.

So my point is it is in the government of spain's interest to lie. And they did. Proclaiming guilt when you don't know yet, is called lying. Just as Bush claiming that Iraq had WMD when 'he didn't know' is called lying. So we know the media and spanish government has already done a form of lying. Now who are you more likely to believe, reasoned examination with no self interest. Or people that have consistently lied and on top of that have a VERY strong motive to lie.

We are talking about a government changing hands. For the people in power now they DONT want to see that. Even if their ETA theory gets blown away they want it to happen in 3 days time. In other words after they get re-elected. Then maybe they will say sorry maybe we jumped the gun a bit. But they will stay in power of course.

I watched 9'11 live and until the second plane hit they were saying this is clearly an accident. And not even allowing for the terrorist possibility. When the flight went down a stones throw from ground zero, a month later within 15 minutes of it going down the government spokesman was saying it was not terrorism. His exact words were: We don't know what took that plane down, but we do know that it wasn't terrorism.

Then 2 weeks later the same man, who is the head of New York state security, and before that was head of airline security and the governments main spokesman on the TWA denial. He had the audacity to say, well at first we jumped to the terrorism conclusion because of the times we are living in. But it turns out that was unreasonable and upon looking at the evidence we can clearly rule out terrorism.

Yet I was watching the little ferret 15 minutes after the plane went down assuring people that this wasn't terror. So we know he lied there. Its time to stop believing proven liars and start thinking for yourself.

[muriel_volestrangler]

107. Well, then Al Qaeda's being attacking Spain for 4 years

without telling them.
July 17,2000: no warning http://www.ict.org.il/spotlight/det.cfm?id=902
April 22, 2002: no warning http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2002/04/22/story47369.asp
August 4, 2002: no warning http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/08/09/spain.torrevieja/?related
May 31,2003: no warning http://www.ict.org.il/spotlight/det.cfm?id=902

Frequently they do not take immediate responsibility.

This can still easily be ETA's doing.

[arrogantatheist1000]

109. Your links in total have TWO people being killed in the last 3 years.

July 17,2000: no warning http://www.ict.org.il/spotlight/det.cfm?id=902
April 22, 2002: no warning http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2002/04/22/story47369.asp
August 4, 2002: no warning http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/08/09/spain.torrevieja/?relat...
May 31,2003: no warning http://www.ict.org.il/spotlight/det.cfm?id=902

Frequently they do not take immediate responsibility.

This can still easily be ETA's doing.

In those stories you linked, which btw the first and fourth are the same report, a total of TWO people were killed. Both of which were police officers. On all three occasions they gave warning calls so that the people could evacuate.

In addition they claimed responsibility for all three.

I disagree that it can easily be ETA's doing. I do not however completely rule it out. What I pointed out in my opinion above was that the spanish authorities were saying definitavely that it was ETA within 45 minutes.

Bombs were still being found, and there was no investigation whatsoever. Yet they were proclaiming this WAS ETA. That is a form of lying when you dont' know something yet proclaim that you 'know' it.

And as I said I am saying this very likely was a militant islamic attack, I'm not being like them and saying 'it was.'

It brings many people great comfort to believe that this wasn't a cost of fighting their 'war on terror'. And I'm not neccessarily saying you, I'm merely pointing out people tend to believe what they want to believe. I myself am not immune to this. That is why I force myself to read from a bunch of sources and think about the logic myself.

We know the media is lying by saying eta did do it when they dont' know. This doesn't mean eta wasn't involved or didn't outright know it. But you must agree that is a form of lying. Do you also agree that the current ruling party in Spain would benefit from this not being al-qaeda?

[muriel_volestrangler]

113. Sorry ,the first link should have been:

July 17,2000: no warning, no claim, one slight injury http://www.time.com/time/europe/webonly/europe/2000/07/eta.html

Attack 2: no warning, 1 hospitalization
Attack 3 (the Santa Pola one - notice the date I gave): no warning, 2 deaths, 30 injuries
Attack 4: no warning, no claim, 2 deaths, 1 serious injury

You said "Never before have they not given a pre call in. Never before have they not taken responsibility." You hadn't done enough research to find out this wasn't true. You must agree that is a form of lying.

Would the government benefit from it not being al-qaeda? I don't know.

[arrogantatheist1000]

115. Your right on the not all warnings.. that was a fallacy of mine.

July 17,2000: no warning, no claim, one slight injury http://www.time.com/time/europe/webonly/europe/2000/07/eta.html

Attack 2: no warning, 1 hospitalization
Attack 3 (the Santa Pola one - notice the date I gave): no warning, 2 deaths, 30 injuries
Attack 4: no warning, no claim, 2 deaths, 1 serious injury

You said "Never before have they not given a pre call in. Never before have they not taken responsibility." You hadn't done enough research to find out this wasn't true. You must agree that is a form of lying."""



From the reports I had read before there were warnings in all of them. I didn't read the two thouroughly enough. However those incidents also weren't the attacks on large numbers of people. I doubt they would call in a warning when going to assasinate some politician in a car bomb.

So I admit to say that all of their actions were with warnings was arguably lying. Now also admitedly all of the evidence I had read before that had said there was warnings.

So to reiterate my new thinking on that, all of ETA's attacks on areas that would cause many civilian deaths have included warnings. However many of their attacks on indivuals do not come with warnings.

Thank you for pointing out that there were those attacks without warnings. This is oen reason I love debating people who may not agree with me overall. They come out with sources that may disprove at least part of your argument. Some hate that because they are trying to prove a point. I love it because I am not trying to convince merely debate to achieve greater understanding myself.

[muriel_volestrangler]

122. I hope I didn't sound harsh

I think I should have put a ;-) after my post. I admit your suspicion of al-Qaeda is quite possible (and more suspicion is lighting on them as I write, with the letter reported by the London Arab newspaper), but I didn't think the case was cut and dried.

[macllyr]

112. US and EU will need to fight together in coming Resource Wars

US and EU Leaders finally understood it was necessary to coordinate their efforts before the beginning of Resources Wars (energy, food, water). We are democracies. The public opinion must accept and support strongly a general US/EU offensive on resource-rich Third World countries. Atrocities, like today in Spain, could happen in several major EU countries until the new EU / US alliance is accepted by their citizens. I expect multiple signs of close cooperation between the USA and EU to become evident in the coming months.

macllyr

[arrogantatheist1000]

116. I largely agree.

It will be hard for many european countries to get public support to do this though. Also most european states are in rough economic straits. They are already at tax maximums and are horribly in debt.

For them if they are going to hire military units to fight in Iraq, they need to fire people from elsewhere in the government. In addition each year their population is aging and they have promised undeliverable amounts of money to those people.

So they will be needing to cut government to provide those benefits in the years ahead as it is. Especialy post 2010. A german economist I was just reading forecast that the german government would have to cut out 1% of its budget annualy past 2010 just to cover pension promises. That is a tough sell in a socialist nation, firing off 1% of their massive government per year.

In nations like France near or over 50% of workers work for the government. We are talking about laying off .5% of the entire workforce per year, just to meet promises. Let alone if you were having to project power around the world. And the young men who would be fighting, are also people who pay into the system, further compounding the issue.

There is another factor that is especially noticeable in France. Of france's 60 million people 12 million are muslims. They do not largely support wars against muslim nations. So for French politicians this is a real issue, those 12 million people can sway elections if they vote only on one issue. This is one reason France is drifting away from the west. Ineed over 50% of french school children today are muslim. French demographers expect by 2050 France will become a muslim nation.

Italy has similar demographics, other nations have substantial muslim populations but not enough to sway elections yet.

But ultimately you are right, if you are going to stay with an oil based economy even as the oil runs out.. and that oil is in the ground in muslim nations. You have to fight. And if europe doesn't fight, the war probably isn't winnable but moreso then that, America won't be keen on giving them a share of the loot. Take the contract assigning in Iraq for example.

And no doubt bombings and other terror acts will continue, its the only realistic response the 'enemy' has. They aren't going to make a navy that can challenge america's navy. They aren't going to win a big tank battle against an American military designed to fight large tank battles. But they can inflict massive damage to our 'soft spots'. Which of course is why we are seeing these attacks.

My prediction is that besides england and spain, and maybe portugal, europe won't become significantly involved though. Maybe the russians will, however its my belief that most of the european countries are just too old and too broke to really do anything. Their populations don't have much desire for war, its very hard to send your only son to war and then see him come back permanently wounded among many factors.

The only way I can see them going full throttle in is if they are hit very very hard repeatadly. But the terrorists realize this and won't attack nations that aren't coming against them. That is why Spain got hit today as one of the two main US allies. Its funny France didn't get bombed by one of their 'seperatist' movements.. or Ireland for that matter.

[macllyr]

123. Just a few remarks

Thank you for your comments. Just a few remarks.

1)- It is funny to read an US citizen writing that EU nations are financially broke. The War on terror is financed mostly by european and asian funds buying off the trade deficit of the USA.

2)- I am French. There are 6 millions French citizens of North African origin in France (not 12 millions « muslims »). 99,99999% of them have no connection with islamist ideas. The major problem we have with that part of the french population is slow integration because of past governmental errors. Islamic extremists in France represent at most a few hundred lost young men.

3)- Are you aware of recent talks between Germany, GB and France to boost military cooperation ? See how USA and France are « working » together in Haiti. I really think a new US/EU alliance is in the works and it will persist whatever the result of coming US elections.

Macllyr

[arrogantatheist1000]

103. Lions of Al-Mufridoon Claim Madrid Bombing.

http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre_internal.php?article=96680&list=/home.php&.


'''
This was from JihadUnspun.com. I'm not expecting our governments or media to tell anyone about these things, so I have to go digging.

Someone from freerepublic posted this link, some of the freepers also have translator programs and read the islamic sites. I don't enjoy 'debating' with them in fact I'm unable to post there now, but often there is interesting links people bring up.

[arrogantatheist1000]

104. Recent russian train bombings:

At least 41 killed december 5, 2003.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/05/international/europe/06RUSSIA.html?ex=1079154000&en=9f53745a7b8ce47b&ei=5070

At least 40 killed and 120 wounded february 6, 2004.
http://www.hindu.com/2004/02/07/stories/2004020704050100.htm


'September 3, 2003 - Six people are killed in an explosion on board a commuter train near the Northern Caucasus spa town of Pyatigorsk, but police say it is not the work of Chechen rebels.'
This from: http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/12/05/chechnya.timeline/index.html

Most of the recent terror attacks on Russia have been from chechen 'black widow' suicide attackers. These women have lost their husbands and sons to war, and take matters into their own hands. Many chechens have blonde hair and blue eyes, making it impossible to stop.

This is what war is, when you fight other human beings they fight back. And they are just as intelligent as you are. This isn't the 1800's where the western countries were invading sparsely populated tribal areas. These people can get ak-47's and explosives just as easily as we can.

[bemildred]

105. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Thanks for the JUS link.

[arrogantatheist1000]

108. I do respect many on freerepublics ability to find interesting links.

Infact I have posted links there myself. Before I was banned of course (which didn't take long).

The jihadunspun article actualy has some logic behind it, far moreso then our government controlled media. Maybe they are just making it up, however it seems more credible.

I realize most people want to be told everything is going to be ok. This was clearly limited to spain and will never come to america. We are winning the war on terrorism. Only a little bit more and they are finished forever. The average person wants to be comforted, and told how wonderful their nation is. They frankly don't want to hear that things are getting bad.. very bad.

Its easy to lie to people who want to believe you. Anyone can attack the credibility of any islamic website. Just as the islamists attack the credibility of western news sites. However even though cnn has a history of lying and supporting government lines, doesn't mean that everything they say is wrong. For example they say airliners hit the world trade center on 911. I happen to believe that. They say some fringe spanish group that has been largely dormant for 20 years pulls off a huge attack on transportation infrastructure on 311. I don't happen to believe that.

I've read jihadunspun.com in the past. Some of their theories shock my paradigms. Some seem hard to believe. Some seem to tell the truth, like their documentary on guantanamo bay, and pointing out the blatant hypocracy in western thinking. How they treat white skinned people versus how they treat brown skinned people.

[bemildred]

110. I find FR too noisy, it's bad enough here that way.

Or maybe I'm too lazy.

I thought the JUS article made perfect sense. Doesn't mean it's
true, but it's more coherent than anything else I've read so far
on this incident.

The current self-serving consensus reality in the USA hardly
constitutes the rules by which the world is run, and sites like
JUS are useful, if for nothing else, by way of making that manifest.

Edit: your last paragraph in post #103 is a point I make here from
time to time, but I find I get little penetration with it, it seems
to be too far outside the box.

[stldemocrat]

120. Rueters reporting...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040311/ts_nm/security_spain_qaeda_dc

[NV1962]

114. Weeks ago, they tried... Now they "succeeded"

For those not believing this was ETA:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1159272,00.html

ETA kanpora!

[arrogantatheist1000]

117. It does sound like that one was stopping ETA

"""The Spanish media reported that the van's driver, and another suspected Eta member captured in a separate vehicle that was scouting ahead of it, had told police they planned to give a telephone warning before the bomb was detonated."""

They were going to call in to warn.

"""It was not clear yesterday where the bomb, consisting of 506kg of chloratite and 30kg of dynamite, would have been detonated. The state television station TVE reported that the target was believed to be the offices of a rightwing newspaper, La Razón""""

Classic ETA from what I've read so far. They go for targets such as policemen, military, politicians or government centers, or journalists who are against them.

Todays attack however doesn't look linked to me. 10 smaller explosions simultaneous. No warning. On a civilian area with no connection to one of their usual targets. They have bombed civilian places designed to hurt spain economically before, but each time it was a single bomb, and the warning call came 2 hours before so that the areas were evacuated.


Also just in from reuters: Spain says suspect van had arabic tapes.
http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=JYXZC0NQYDWC4CRBAEKSFEY?type=worldNews&storyID=4550229

[NV1962]

119. A single commercially available tape, no calls / reference to violence...

It's a lead that must be followed through thoroughly, but what's known at present points mostly to an all-out "last ditch" effort by ETA, set to influence the elections - they've done that before: provoking the right, and seeking a swing to the right.

In their bloody bizarro world, that fits with their insane pre-emptive Verehlendung theory.

[markses]

124. Nope

This just does not square with their previous activities, even this news report you post here. ETA warns. That is what they do. This bombing, moreover, was not one bomb, but several.

I just don't buy it. This was al-Quaeda.