Taser tells police to avoid shooting at chest

[951-Riverside]

Source: The Associated Press

Stun-gun maker Taser International has started telling police agencies to avoid firing the devices at suspects' chests, explaining that there's an "extremely low" risk of ill effects on the heart and that doing so will make defending lawsuits easier.

The Scottsdale, Ariz.-based company made the recommendation in an Oct. 12 revised training manual, saying it "has less to do with safety and more to do with effective risk management for law enforcement agencies."

The manual also includes a lengthy explanation about deaths caused by sudden cardiac arrest.

"Should sudden cardiac arrest occur in a scenario involving a Taser discharge to the chest area, it would place the law enforcement agency, the officer, and Taser International in the difficult situation of trying to ascertain what role, if any, (the device) could have played," according to the manual.

The manual includes a graphic displaying the human body and "preferred target areas." The company recommends firing Tasers anywhere but at the head, neck and chest. The manual says to avoid chest shots "when possible" and "unless legally justified."

Taser critics call the company's new recommendation an admission that the devices can cause heart attacks.

"It's a sea change, a passive acknowledgment that Taser has indeed been overconfident about its claims of safety," said Mark Silverstein, legal director of the ACLU of Colorado. "It underscores the question marks that have been adding up along with hundreds of bodies."

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iJFYhxLKUUqqOdeDMoYP0y1IZe3wD9BFQCN82

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I hope Rick Smith is left poor and bankrupt. So many people have died needlessly by the barbs of his barbaric torture device.

[Gregorian]

1. Bless their evil little hearts.

I've said from day one that these are just shy of mobile electrophysiology labs. If you don't know what that means, in cardiology there are labs that are used for cardiac arrhythmias. But they are controlled and safe. However, even under the best circumstances, playing around with electricity in the vicinity of the heart conductive fibers can result in death.

I cannot believe tasers are legal. It makes no sense. Unless one lives in a society where life means so little that we cannot find a decent way of controlling people. No sense.

[HardWorkingDem]

3. What is really an issue that many people just don't realize...

is when it comes to arresting combative people, there is no single way to control people. Every single method developed to control people in arrests and combative situations has had its detractors of one sort or another.

These arguments have went on regarding pepper sprays, nightsticks, handholds, Asps, mace, fists, saps, guns - all of them.

Heck, if the police started using heavy nets to toss on people, there would be complaints.


Anymore, I don't know what the answer is and this is extremely baffling because not long ago the FBI released a study that the overwhelming number of people arrested were under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

Too bad there wasn't a magic pill or spray that would work on all the people all the time.

[Johnboi70]

12. Maybe the problem is abusive cops using a torture device that doesn't leave marks? n/t

[HardWorkingDem]

29. You miss my point...

every single control device/tool has its detractors and often times, those detractors either purposely ignore how volatile these situations are and how impossible it is to please the unrealistic.

I wish I could live in a world that some here perceive to wrongfully exist.

Other than that, have you ever tried to win an argument with a drunk? Well, toss in a little irrational violence and maybe you might be able to imagine what I'm suggesting.

[AzNick]

2. Of course it is bad to shoot at someone's heart with a taser...

This obvious fact has been known since the weapon came out.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

10. True. However, they're not really addressing that it's bad, just liability issues

Goodness knows the real issue here is who might or might not be sued.

:banghead:

[Tiggeroshii]

4. Obviously it's only been a coincidence that peoples' hearts would collapse at the SAME time it's

being tasered. :eyes:

[paulsby]

5. rubbish

tasers have saved thousands of lives. every major police agency that adopts tasers sees: injuries and deaths (both to officers and to suspects) go DOWN.

people have ALWAYS suffered cardiac arrest during arrest situations. i had that happen to me when i wrestled with a warrant suspect. no taser needed.

people who can't read autopsy reports assume : a) person was tasered b) person has heart failure thus c) a caused b

not a valid argument.

in custody deaths are a fact of life, and will happen whether or not officers use tasers, bare hands, etc. like i said, i had a guy code on me and all we did was wrestle him to the ground. nobody even went near his neck.

tasers have saved many many lives, and you will note that lawsuit after lawsuit, the plaintiffs LOSE because the evidence is there. tasers are not the cause of death.

[winyanstaz]

7. riiight...healthy people died when shot in the chest with a tazer...

but that doesnt mean the tazer killed them...wtf?

The bodies ARE the evidence. Tazers kill.

[paulsby]

8. no, the autopsy results are the evidence

so called 'healthy people" often aren't

recall that jim fixx, the god of the jogging boom dropped dead of a heart attack while jogging.

lol

often, the people we deal with are on polydrug combos and very unhealthy. street people for instance, tend to have very spotty diets, to put it mildly

again, i'll look at physical evidence. autopsy reports, etc.

you can look at rhetoric and hysteria if you want.

again, the lawsuits continually lose (even in the US where you can sue a ham sandwich) because the FACTS are on the side of the taser.

fwiw, i've been tased twice.

[CBGLuthier]

16. You need a few more applications I would say

So it is a SAFE device according to you because it only kills unhealthy people occasionally.

How much stock do you own in the company?

[paulsby]

23. any

use of force can be a contributory factor in death, from a punch in the nose, to a baton strike to the leg.

please find me an autopsy report that listed the taser as primary cause of death:

right here: ---- HERE


tasers SAVE lives. the stats don't lie

i don't think you do, either. i just think you are misled by propaganda.

iow, i don't think you are intentionally lying, just a victim of the media

[scipan]

22. the facts, or intimidation and lawsuits?

Judge rules for Taser in cause-of-death decisions

by Robert Anglen - May. 2, 2008 07:28 PM
The Arizona Republic

Taser International has fired a warning shot at medical examiners across the country.

The Scottsdale-based stun gun manufacturer increasingly is targeting state and county medical examiners with lawsuits and lobbying efforts to reverse and prevent medical rulings that Tasers contributed to someone's death.

That effort on Friday helped lead an Ohio judge's order to remove Taser's name from three Summit County Medical Examiner autopsies that had ruled the stun gun contributed to three men's deaths.
<snip>
... Taser sued a coroner in Indiana who had ruled that Taser caused the death of a man in 2004.

Several coroners have also reported being challenged by Taser, says Jentzen. Among them was a Cook County, Ill., medical examiner who ruled Taser shocks contributed to the death of a 54-year-old man in 2005. Taser dismissed the autopsy report as not credible and said the medical examiner was unqualified. The company demanded a judicial review.

Taser also has asked coroners to reverse opinions. An Anderson, S.C., deputy coroner said Taser representatives showed up in his office on the same day that he ruled Taser shocks contributed to a man's death in 2004.

Charlie Boseman said Taser wanted him to remove any reference to the stun gun from his report. He refused.
<snip>
Taser for years touted autopsy reports as proof of the stun gun's safety. Company officials told police departments and shareholders that no medical examiner had cited the stun gun in an autopsy report. But The Republic's investigation found that 27 medical examiners concluded that the gun caused, contributed to or could not be ruled out in deaths.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/05/02/20080502taser0503.html

[paulsby]

24. cite right here

right here: HERE

an autopsy report that lists the taser as the primary cause of death

even IF the taser has ever been a primary cause of death, it has saved FAR (thousands) more lives than it has been a contributory factor of death

ANY use of force, CAN be a contributory factor to death, as can weather, level of hydration, and even a baton strike to the leg (generally thought of as non-lethal)

the evidence matters.

that you are a victim of media propaganda, is sad, but common

have you actually READ any autopsy reports? i'd bet not.

not only have i read several dozen related to taser deaths, but i've been to several autopsies.

the evidence doesn't lie.

neither, imo do you. you are just a victim of propaganda.

[winyanstaz]

26. Tazers kill...simply because..YOU cannot tell who is healthy or not...

and so you don't KNOW if you shot someone with a Tazer if they will drop dead or not.
Tazers kill.

[paulsby]

28. you don't know

if they;'ll drop dead from wrestling (i had that happen once to a suspect i wrestled with. fortunately, the firefighters on scene got him stabilized.

in custody deaths have ALWAYS happened, it's just that now, there is an evil boogeyman the propagandists can blame. and you fall into their trap.

the STUDIES and the AUTOPSIES don't support your argument.

again, ANY time a arrest situation happens there is risk of injury and even death. even from non-lethal things like a baton strike to the leg, or being in a wrestling match to get into handcuffs.

you have MASSIVE amounts of adrenaline, and a weak or damaged heart can't take it. that happens regardless of whether there is a taser or not

study in custody deaths. they happned BEFORE tasers even existed, they still happen, and they will always happen

don't believe the propaganda. believe the EVIDENCE.

autopsy reports. physiology. science.

fwiw, i;ve been tased twice. i volunteered. i know instructors that literally have been tased over a dozen times. it's SAFE

[winyanstaz]

31. I have already had one heart attack...it would NOT be safe for me...

regardless of how many times YOU have been tazed.

[Flaneur]

34. I'm sorry, it just seems like people get tasered and die.

Yeah, they could have bad hearts; yeah, they could be on drugs, but they weren't DEAD until they got tasered. Good thing tasers have nothing to do with it. Whew. I can go back to sleep now.

[BreweryYardRat]

35. Erm...

"you have MASSIVE amounts of adrenaline, and a weak or damaged heart can't take it. that happens regardless of whether there is a taser or not..."

Yeah, that's a point. But speaking strictly in layman's terms, it seems like the taser's electrical jolt, combined with all that adrenalin might make for an increased risk of heart attack.

It's like mixing medications:

Med A is safe on its own.

Med B is safe on its own.

Take Meds A & B at the same time, and you're suddenly in deep shit.

[Flaneur]

32. "Tasers have saved thousands of lives."

Please explain. As far as I can tell, they are linked to hundreds of deaths, not saving thousands of lives.

They may make a police officer's job a little easier since he won't have to physically engage...but saving lives?

Are you suggesting that tasers save lives because otherwise police would have just shot the subjects?

[truthisfreedom]

6. Jury's out for me.

I'd have to see hard facts regarding everything having to do with tasers. Exactly how many lives they've saved vs how many they've destroyed. Exactly how often they are used as torture devices instead of being used to subdue real threats. Exactly how many times they're abused at all.

[Johnboi70]

11. We should just go back to billy clubs.

That way, we know when a cop is using force and we're not dazzled by the technology. Also, it takes away the opportunity for cops to use force casually. Of course, that might mean cops will use guns more, but its also obvious when guns are used excessively. These "safe" devices lull us into thinking that there is a new, acceptable way for cops to hurt people... not unlike torture being okay as long as it doesn't leave a mark. Violence is violence, regardless of the physical marks left behind.

Mind you, tasers have their legitimate uses, but not traffic cop should ever be tasering an old woman for talking back.

[paulsby]

25. ridiculous

you don't KNOW with a baton (billy club). you KNOW with a taser, since it documents each press of the trigger on the internal computer in each unit. it also shoots out scores of tiny pieces of paper with the serial # of the cartridge with each shot

tasers are FAR more accountable than batons

but then of course if you knew the first thing about tasers, you'd KNOW this

that you don't, is a sign you are a dupe of the media.

[Yavapai]

9. Wonder what effect a taser would have on my pacemaker/defibrillator?

Boston Scientific, tells me to avoid being near running car engines, chainsaws and even having a cell phone in my shirt pocket.

Think I would rather risk the bullet....

[LeftHander]

30. It most likely will kill you.....nt

[Flaneur]

33. And then the coronor will call it death by "excited delirium"

I think they made that up just for taser deaths.

[liberal N proud]

13. Only to make defending lawsuits easier

Not for the safety of the tasered but to protect the taseree from lawsuits.


:wtf:

[Tim01]

14. Cops should go back to hitting people with clubs.

I'm sure a lot more people were seriously injured by nightsticks and blackjacks. But, fuck it. Tasers just seem so mean. Forget going by what really hurts people. And forget what gets cops hurt. Make policy based on perceptions of people who have no idea about anything.





That reminds me. When I go hunting today I need to stay very far away from the electric fence with the 100 mile fence charger. No desire to tangle with that thing.

[CBGLuthier]

17. Seriously injured VS. seriously dead

The problem is cops are using tasers for bullshit crowd control not just for those who are a real threat.

No one would ever defend using a club in many of the taser cases.

A taser should be an alternative to a gun not to a verbal command.

[Blandocyte]

15. This just in, Taser places warning on its devices

"Danger: Do Not Point Device At Any Living Thing"

:+

[Altoid_Cyclist]

18. We know that not all Police Officers misuse their Tasers and their authority.

However, when you see news reports about people being tasered while handcuffed, or lying on the ground offering no resistance or being tasered multiple times for no reason, a pattern does emerge.

There have been far too many people end up dead after being tasered for them to all be coincidence. There can't be that many seemingly healthy people so close to death walking around that just happen to be tasered.

Google just one Police Deapartment; (Pittsburgh, PA) and the use of tasers and it's pretty clear that some people are just Taser happy.

Sometimes the use of whatever force is required is unavoidable. Sometimes it just seems as though the Tasers are treated as playthings for amusement purposes.

http://pittsburghpolice.net/2009/09/29/pittsburgh-police-taser-woman-lying-on-the-ground/

http://pittsburgh.indymedia.org/news/2005/08/20117.php

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/us-teenager-killed-police-taser-attack-20090323

[Robb]

19. LEO, chime in: don't you aim for center mass anyhow?

Isn't that what you're trained to do? And being told not to do that with a weapon, wouldn't that pretty much invalidate using it?

[fascisthunter]

20. since it is flawed, it should not be used

if there is no guarantee it can't kill people, it should not be used for the purpose of subduing people into submission. This isn't about saving lives, it's about money.

[Poll_Blind]

21. This goes against all standard police training of aiming for center mass.

Which means that any policeman deploying a taser has a natural conflict and is likely to make a mistake under stress.

[truthisfreedom]

27. So where does Tazer suggest that the police should be aiming these things?

No head, neck, or chest shots.

Crotch, perhaps? Stomach? Back? Buttocks? Arms? Legs? Where?