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dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 11:26 AM
Original message
Riots rock Northern Algeria
Algiers - Outbreaks of violence which the Algerian press described as "riots" by disaffected youth have broken out in the past few days in several northern cities and towns, newspapers reported on Tuesday.

Youths protesting against unemployment, water shortages and what they called the failure of authorities to come up with promised development programmes took place in the Mediterranean coast town of Skikda, in Tizi Ouzou and Bouira, both main towns in the northeastern Kabylie province, and in Tiaret, 300km west of Algiers, the papers said.

http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/News/0,,2-11-1447_1495643,00.html
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
1. US Confirms Military Activity in South Algeria
ALGERIA, 7 March 2004 Ñ The United States confirmed yesterday that it was militarily active in southern Algeria, but denied reports that it had a permanent base there.

ÒThe United States is battling terrorist activities in Algeria and the SahelÓ, the US Embassy in Algiers said, adding, the countryÕs Ònoteworthy cooperationÓ with the US will be Òextended to other sectorsÓ, including training Algerian armed forces.

Last year, Washington allegedly provided Algeria with $700,000 in funds for military equipment needed to fight terrorism. US forces reportedly help smash a troop of Muslim, underground fighters, who had bought weapons in Mali with funds extorted from Germany, according to Algerian media reports. Germany allegedly paid millions for the release of tourists kidnapped in the Sahara.

http://www.aljazeerah.info/News%20archives/2004%20News%20archives/March/7%20n/US%20Confirms%20Military%20Activity%20in%20South%20Algeria.htm
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. It's hard to know who to root for here.
Edited on Tue Mar-09-04 11:55 AM by bemildred
The minority Berbers in the NE maybe. Nevertheless,
it seems unlikely that Uncle Sugars involvement will
improve things much.

Oh yes, plenty of oil, and "relatively unexplored".

Edit: it must be admitted that it would be difficult to
make things much worse short of methodical genocide.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. Hm. And we have forces
...in southern Algeria. :eyes:
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Uh,
problems in Algeria didn't start with the US. Lest you forget, Islamic fundamentalists waged a brutal war against the government in the 1990s, in which they killed over 100,000 civilians.

Kind of puts things in perspective.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Perspective? Right...
.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Deleted message
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Fascists?
I suppose the terrorists who killed a hundred thousand civilians were public-spirited types?
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frank frankly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. feh. blah. whatever.
you are TRANSPARENT.

bye-bye, mobuto!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 01:26 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 01:33 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 01:39 PM
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. You've got it backwards, as usual
Edited on Tue Mar-09-04 12:06 PM by Aidoneus
They did not start this war--they had won the election, but the western-backed military said "um.. ok, it seems that democracy sucks after all. We're in charge now.." and began their war. Studies--ie, things that go beyond the shallow lies commonly put forth about practically anything--have shown that it is primarily the statist military and their proxy forces behind the bulk of notable events. Just a coincidence that the highest casualties of the war happen to be where the Islamic party scored the strongest?

You are right about the first line; not the US, but the French. Exact same tendency at work, slightly different accent. The Berber/Kabylie matter predates US & French imperialism.
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plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. yes and let's not forget why those Islamic forces fought the government
The Islamists won a valid election and the government refused to relinquish power. Granted some westerners might not like to live under an Islamic government, but who are we to tell others they can't have a government like that if that's what they want. Poor Algerians, we forgot to tell them they were free to choose their government as long as they choose what we tell them to.
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. And then they went and killed
100,000 civilians. Brilliant.

I'm no fan on the Algerian govenrment, but come on - 100,000 people?
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plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. do you have any proof they killed 100,000 civilians?
Funny, but the only group in this figth that I think would be interested in killing civilians is the government that didn't like what civilians had chosen for a new government. But I guess if it makes more sense to you that a group would go around killing the people who voted for it there's little I can do to convince you.
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. There are butchers in the government
certainly. And according to HRW, they disappeared up to 7,000 people during the war.

The report, "Time for Reckoning: Enforced Disappearances in Algeria," also accuses armed groups that call themselves Islamist of kidnapping perhaps thousands of Algerians during the armed strife that ravaged the country since the early 1990s and cost over 100,000 lives. These armed groups, as well as state security services that carried out massive "disappearances," are guilty of crimes against humanity and should benefit neither from any amnesty or statute of limitations.
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plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. your quotation
Edited on Tue Mar-09-04 01:35 PM by plurality
simply states that the conflict claimed over 100,000 lives, somehow that's not quite the same as your claim that the Islamists killed 100,000 people.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Won't be able to tell how many till they dig them up
100,000 would sound a we bit of a :puffpiece:

http://news.amnesty.org/mav/index/ENGMDE280012004
Algeria: Commitment on mass grave investigations needed from presidential candidates
Press release, 09/02/2004


Related documents
Algeria: Steps towards change or empty promises ?

At the start of the first official week of campaigning ahead of the presidential elections on 8 April, Amnesty International urges all candidates to commit to taking seriously discoveries of mass graves containing presumed victims of gross human rights abuses committed during the last decade.

"Urgent measures must be taken to ensure mass grave sites are protected wherever they are found," Amnesty International said. "No matter who is responsible for killing the people whose remains are buried at the sites, the authorities need to ensure that the evidence found is not then destroyed."

Amnesty International's call follows recent shocking reports that the remains of dozens of people were last month exhumed from a mass grave site in the western province of Relizane and transferred elsewhere in an apparent attempt to conceal or destroy evidence of human rights abuses. The remains are believed to be of civilians abducted and killed by a local state-armed militia in the mid-1990s.

This is not the first time such reports have emerged. In 2000 human rights campaigners in Algeria alleged that the remains of some 20 people buried at another mass grave site in the same area were exhumed and relocated by members of the same militia in order to cover up their crimes.

"The body parts found in mass grave sites constitute, not only vital evidence for investigations which still must be carried out into what amount to crimes against humanity committed in Algeria during the last decade, but also the remains of victims whose relatives should be given the long-awaited chance to bury them in a dignified fashion," Amnesty International said.
(snip)
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plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. of course this doesn't say who killed them
Edited on Tue Mar-09-04 01:43 PM by plurality
But generally civilians who are diasapeared are disapeared by the government and not the rebels, seeing how in insurgencies it's usually the government that has an incentive to 'persuade' the population from supporting the insurgents.

I also see that Amnesty reported govenment forces trying to hide evidence of mass graves. Would this be the same government that refused to recognize the results of the election? If so, I wonder why they would try and hide evidence of atrocities if it were the Islamists who were the butchers. :eyes:
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Does this help?

http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq4.html

Algeria and the Paradox of Democracy
The 1992 Coup, its Consequences and the Contemporary Crisis

by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed

I. The Military Coup and its Impact
II. Indifference and Complicity of the Algerian Army
III. Military Rule Under a Facade of Democracy
IV. The Army’s Western-Backed War on the Algerian People
V. Western Interests in Algeria

(snip)
As noted by John Entelis, Professor of Political Science and Director of the Middle East Program at Fordham University in New York, regarding the elections, “The Arab world had never before experienced such a genuinely populist expression of democratic aspirations… Yet when the army overturned the whole democratic experiment in January 1992, the United States willingly accepted the results… In short, a democratically elected Islamist government hostile to American hegemonic aspirations in the region… was considered unacceptable in Washington.” This was primarily because the democratically elected government was unlikely to allow the United States to use Algeria as part of its attempts to consolidate its military-economic hegemony throughout the region. Professor Entelis acknowledges that, in contrast, “More important was the army government’s willingness to collaborate with American regional ambitions”, which included “collaborating with Israel in establishing a Pax Americana in the Middle East and North Africa.”<3>

Following this violent coup, hundreds of civilians were being mysteriously and regularly massacred by an unknown terrorist group. The newly established military regime insisted that the terrorists were members of an organisation called the Armed Islamic Group (GIA). This group was alleged to consist of disenchanted members of the former FIS who were retaliating against the newly installed regime by murdering civilians. Thus, the massacres were blamed on the GIA, a supposedly Islamic terrorist organisation defending the interests of the scattered FIS. The seizing, killing and imprisoning of FIS members and supporters has therefore been perpetrated by the new regime on the pretext of eradicating Islamic terrorism. This has led to what appears to be a veritable civil war within the country between secular government forces and armed Islamic opposition groups. Government forces routinely arrest, detain and kill Algerian citizens who are alleged to be members or supporters of the “Islamic terrorist” armed opposition. The opposition in turn routinely undertakes horrendous massacres of civilians in accordance with its alleged methodology of utilising terror to achieve political objectives. As we shall see, however, the facts are far more complicated.

The result is that Algeria today constitutes yet another humanitarian crisis to which the West remains overtly indifferent. Tens of thousands of children have been affected by a decade of ongoing violence. Since the conflict within Algeria began, hundreds of babies, children and other vulnerable civilians have been killed, often as deliberate targets, as well as indiscriminately. Thousands of children have been seriously traumatised as a result of witnessing members of their family be shot, cut to pieces, or burned alive, as well as witnessing bomb explosions and brutal military operations by security forces and armed groups.<4>
(snip)
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plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. yes it helps immensly
Edited on Tue Mar-09-04 02:41 PM by plurality
From the reading of this I learned that:

1) Islamists won an election.
2) The Army, with the backing of the West, ended democracy and began interning Muslims.
3) A shadowy 'Islamic' terrorist group started killing civilians, giving the 'government' the pretext to begin killing more Islamist supporters.
4) Mass death and mayhem ensued.

Doesn't tell me much I didn't already know, an election occured, the West and power structure of that country didn't like the results, democracy ends and many people die in the process. Funny, nothing that backs up mobuto's assertion that all 100,000 deaths are the responsibility of the Islamists though. Of course maybe he's thinking that the really massive killings didn't occur until the 'Islamist' terrorists struck civilians first causing the government to go around killing more civilians, placing all deaths at the feet of 'Islamists'. Of course, me being that tin-foil hat wearing distruster of fascists that I am, I wouldn't put it past the 'government' to create a fake 'Islamist' terrorist group so it would have an excuse to start killing all Islamists. But that's just me, I know it's crazy to think a fascist 'government' would want to kill citizens that tried to vote it out of power, maybe I just missed my thorazine shot. :crazy:
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I get my shot at night ;-)
That way I can have that extra boost in the morning :crazy:

This did surprise me though, this just seems like one more scratched record that can't get off the same old tired beat
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plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. It's a beat that's been sounding since 1492.
Edited on Tue Mar-09-04 03:28 PM by plurality
I think it's only now that people are starting to try and knock the needle to a different groove.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-09-04 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. ah, thanks
I was looking around for that report to offer up here--saved me the other half of my as-yet unsuccessful efforts.
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