South African white man granted refugee status

[Liberal_in_LA]

Source: San Francisco Chronicle

South African white man granted refugee status

By ROB GILLIES, Associated Press Writer

Tuesday, September 1, 2009

(09-01) 17:27 PDT TORONTO, Canada (AP) --

A white man from South Africa has been given refugee status in Canada after claiming persecution, his lawyer said, angering many in his home country where race remains a highly sensitive issue.

A Canadian immigration board panel issued its ruling late last week in the case involving Brandon Carl Huntley, according to his lawyer, Russell Kaplan.

Kaplan said Tuesday it's likely the first time a white South African has been granted refugee status in Canada claiming persecution from black South Africans.

------------------------

Huntley argued that whites are targeted by black criminals in South Africa and that the government does nothing to protect them. He claimed he was attacked seven times during attempted robberies and muggings.



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/09/01/international/i172712D86.DTL&tsp=1

[bbinacan]

1. Might be afraid of

being a victim of Necklacing.

[janedum]

2. He's in for a BIG surprise. There are plenty of Africans IN CANADA!

ROFLMAO!

[Chef Eric]

8. No, he's not in for a big surprise.

The man is quite familiar with Canada; he's been living there off and on for several years. And what makes you think he dislikes "Africans"? Nowhere in the article does it say that he dislikes Africans.

[24601]

136. Yeah - he's one of them! n/t

[snooper2]

149. not sure if this post is just a little bit of stupid or a lot of stupid...

will get back to you :)

[Treo]

185. UMMMM he IS an African NT

[tabatha]

20. That was black on black.

[niceypoo]

70. As if that makes it OK?

[tabatha]

74. Nope, it does not make it OK.Where did I say that?

But one needs to KNOW what is going on.

[niceypoo]

71. dupe

[angstlessk]

3. well, gee, wonder where he was when the blacks were being murdered and

robbed? just one of the guys i recon?

[mrbarber]

4. So because of his skin color.....

you are going to assume that he must be some kind of murderous thug?

How progressive of you.

[bbinacan]

5. I guess you believe in payback huh?

What do you know about this guy? Nothing. I hate stupid ass comments like this.

edit: So you are judge, jury, and executioner? You're a prick. And I'm being kind.

[ZombieHorde]

17. I know two white guys from South Africa who had nothing to do with the apartheid.

They said they were disturbed by what they saw.

[DavidDvorkin]

29. Great numbers of South African whites opposed Apartheid

And in the end, they were able to vote it out of existence.

[struggle4progress]

34. Apartheid ended when the Afrikaaner Nationalists could no longer ignore the

opposition, because it had become so well-organized: the fact the opposition had no representation in the ordinary political structure then became irrelevant

At that point, for the first time in many decades, the Nationalists suddenly compromised, not because of a sudden principled opposition to apartheid but simply because they really had no other choice

[DavidDvorkin]

49. I wasn't referring to the Nationalists.

[struggle4progress]

51. The Nationalists commanded enough support among the politically enfranchised

to win again and again, although the majority of the country was not enfranchised during the years of Nationalist power. Political enfranchisement in those years was essentially determined by skin-color, so the political evidence is that most people of European complexion supported the Nationalists until it became absolutely clear that continuing Nationalist policies could only lead to ruin

[DavidDvorkin]

73. That doesn't contradict what I said

Despite the Nationalist majority, white opposition was significant and grew. Large numbers of whites were opposed to Apartheid, as I said.

[struggle4progress]

93. Anyone who regarded him/herself as a "white South African" was unlikely to be an effective

opponent of apartheid

The Nationalist Party scheme, of dividing people according to some elaborate ethnicity classification, was critical to the political success of the apartheid project. The scheme was accompanied by a ridiculous pseudo-science, which attempted (for example) to decide how particular children were to be treated under the Group Areas Act, by "tests" such as stick a pencil in the child's hair and count until the pencil falls out: such "tests" were used, although invariably it happened that some children were classified differently than other children of the same parents. People of any background, who refused to acknowledge such classifications, typically ran afoul of the law; to avoid problems with the law, one had to act as if one agreed with it; but the law itself was the issue. Ultimately, the analytical approach that led to a winning strategy involved no racial ideas

If you read a large amount of material about South Africa from (say) the 1980s, you will find that you are immediately able to identify (from a random paragraph or two) texts written by those who considered themselves "white South Africans," since such texts exhibit very peculiar ideological markers, regardless of whether the authors claim to be supporters or opponents of apartheid. Once people escaped from the standard ideological presuppositions, their skin-hue is harder to guess from their writings: the communist party thinkers, for example, had a long history of principled opposition to racial thinking, and their texts do not indicate much about their backgrounds, except when they decide to explicitly provide it

What is the point of a claim such as Large numbers of whites were opposed to apartheid? Apartheid was a system of economic exploitation, that attempted to create and maintain distinctions between lumpen-proletariat and more advantaged social classes, based on skin-color. Significant downward-directed violence was required to maintain the privileges of the beneficiaries. Of course, reactions varied throughout the entire system

[DavidDvorkin]

96. Your skull is impenetrable.

[struggle4progress]

97. Could be. Or maybe you don't understand what I am saying. Or perhaps you don't like it.

I knew a number of South Africans during the apartheid era. I followed issues there closely

Those who benefited, however indirectly, from the apartheid system often could not or did not provide accurate descriptions of it

More than twenty years after the Sharpeville massacre, I had a long public discussion with a perfectly nice elderly couple from South Africa who were still spouting what they had read in the newspapers immediately after the massacre: they claimed the crowd had pushed down a fence and the police had shot to protect themselves -- even though there were post-massacre photos showing the fence standing, and crowd fleeing as the police shot them in the back. Of course, Trevor Huddleston had been expelled from the country for educating folk about such details. Perhaps you would have counted them as opponents of apartheid: their professed attitude was something like Nobody likes apartheid, but we have the right to protect ourselves from all these black communists. I thought they were worse than useless as opoponents of apartheid

I did a bit of public education work (newspaper, radio, and so on) with a South African of European complexion in those days. There was no question he was sincerely opposed to discrimination -- but he had little mastery of the actual laws and policies that affected darker-skinned people in his own country: he believed that the educational system was open and available to everyone, and I far as I could tell he never bothered to examine the actual laws and regulations that governed most people's lives. Perhaps he never heard the infamous Botha quote What is the use of teaching the Bantu child mathematics when it cannot use it in practice? before I jammed it in his face. Some well-meaning people like that probably had access to Reagan, accounting for his inexcusable and nonsensical claim that there was nothing like Jim Crow in South Africa -- since, in fact, most South Africans were covered by a mandatory pass system and subject to instant deportation to desolate supposed "homelands"

I didn't sneer at the privileged opponents of apartheid: people like Helen Suzman (who did her best to document events by using her parliamentary right to ask the government questions) and the university workers who compiled the Surplus Peoples Project information did something valuable, but they were a distinct minority, and I have some doubts about how effective they were. In the end, apartheid didn't collapse because the privileged classes largely opposed it -- mostly they didn't oppose it but simply profited from it -- apartheid collapsed because the disenfranchised majority finally built a winning coalition with a winning strategy and developed the necessary organization and discipline to win. After the collapse of course, almost everybody said they had always opposed apartheid, and the winners showed a certain political graciousness, as evidenced in particular by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

57. whites were active in fighting aparthied from its inception

Indeed four of Nelson Mandela's Rivonia co-defendants were white, but it is just so much easier to assume every white dude in Africa is just like the bad guys in Lethal Weapon 2 and therefore deserving of whatever the anarchy serves them.

[struggle4progress]

65. The effective activists got tossed out of the country (like trevor Huddleston), were silenced

by law (like Joe Slovo), were murdered (like Ruth First), or ended up in jail (like Denis Goldberg). The only way to avoid such fates was to "work within the system," and that was a project that required very careful footwork and did not often produce exciting results

[sunnybrook]

105. I tend to think these whites were not the majority

Obviously! Where have I heard this before? The whites caused them to liberate themselves...

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

62. probably in diapers, he is 31.

[WildEyedLiberal]

64. Well, that makes it okay for him to be robbed and beaten, I guess

For Christ's sake. :eyes:

[struggle4progress]

69. The only "evidence" any of that ever happened to him is his own testimony,

since he never reported any of it.

[WildEyedLiberal]

86. That's a really disgusting thing to say - do you have the same opinion of rape victims?

Most rapes aren't reported to the cops, either, for a variety of reasons - one of which is the victim's fear that she'll be told she's lying, making it all up, or trying to get attention.

And yet you are saying that if a crime isn't reported to the police, it didn't happen. You don't WANT to believe him because his story doesn't confirm your prejudices and biases. The ONLY reason you are so quick to disbelieve him is because he's white and YOU find it impossible that any white person anywhere could suffer discrimination. If the tables were turned and this man were black and seeking asylum, your posts would probably get you tombstoned.

[struggle4progress]

90. The "victim" is this case claims something like seven separate assaults over the years, including

three stabbings, during various robberies and robbery attempts; strangely, none of these alleged events were ever reported. He says he didn't report because he didn't expect any help from the authorities, but perhaps his attitude towards the authorities might be gauged by the fact that he's been in Canada illegally for a number of years. The "victim" also claims that affirmative action in South Africa prevented him from obtaining a job, but the fact he was working as a carnival assistant in Canada does not suggest he had many real job skills

Of course, we can't really look at the record, because his lawyer won't release it. But the "victim" sounds like a bull-shitter to me; and aside from his claims, the "evidence" in the case seems to have been a handful of newspaper clippings and some testimony from his lawyer's sister, who plausibly owed her brother a favor for helping her immigrate to Canada a few years back. Forgive me if I'm unimpressed

[WildEyedLiberal]

116. "The 'victim' sounds like a bullshitter to me" - oh yes, because YOU are the authority here

You've decided this man is a "fake victim" and a "bullshitter" because for whatever reason you're politically opposed to his seeking asylum. Fucking disturbing and not very progressive.

[struggle4progress]

120. In posts #11, 14, and #101, I've provided links to various people who think Huntley

is full of it: some are from the area Huntley is from; others represent a swatch of South Africa

In #91, I provide SAIRR's take on the statistics of criminal victimization. I've provided similar comments from other S Africans in #27 and #48

I've provided a general political perspective on the ideology associated with the coalition that won the anti-apartheid struggle in several subthreads

You can make up your mind based on whatever facts you find -- or you can simply decide in advance what you will believe, based on your own predilections. I prefer to examine multiple independent lines of evidence in assessing such claims

It currently looks to me like he's a relatively uneducated skinhead, who couldn't get a good job in either S Africa or Canada (see posts #6 and #16) and who found himself a lawyer, another S African ex-pat (see post #9) who had wanted for some time to make a big splash about blacks in S Africa persecuting whites (see post #18). So he claimed a number of criminal attacks he couldn't prove (see post #69) and asserted that they were evidence of prejudice against him, throwing in the rightwing line I'm a victim of affirmative action for good measure (see post #102). The lawyer then grabbed the lawyer's own sister, another S African ex-pat, as a witness (see post #13!) and tossed in some newspaper clippings (see post #40) -- and on this basis, the board in Canada decided there's a general pattern and policy of prejudice against whites in S Africa to justify an asylum claim. Huntley gets attention and gives interviews; the lawyer gets to advertise himself in S Africa as a route for emigration to Canada; racists everywhere get to bitch and moan about affirmative action and majority government in South Africa -- and, yeah, I think it's basically bullshit

[struggle4progress]

91. ... South African Institute of Race Relations chief executive Frans Cronje said that, based on media

the claims of persecution of white South Africans were "largely without foundation". Although there were cases of racially motivated crimes in the country, there was no evidence of a general pattern ...

SA sucks, says crime refugee
September 02 2009 at 07:22AM
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=6&art_id=vn20090902033718191C742857

[Odin2005]

160. Wow, so I'm sure you think most rape victims are liars, too, huh?

[Dr_Willie_Feelgood]

177. I had some cab passengers from South Africa once. Drove...

...them through residential areas of the City of Detroit in order to get them the lowest possible fare.

Their take was that Detroit was cleaner and more peaceful than where they are from.

This is a sad statement on the condition of South Africa.

[Odin2005]

159. All white South Africans are evil racists, don't ya know?

:sarcasm:

[hughee99]

135. They still are...

the crime rate is high for everyone, not just whites. Unless you're referring to his responsibility for apartheid?

[Christa]

165. Apartheid was abolished in 1992

he is still a young guy, I guess he was in primary school?

[struggle4progress]

6. ... Huntley made a refugee claim in 2008 after staying in Canada illegally for a year ...

South African white man granted refugee status
By ROB GILLIES (AP)
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5idk96kXAfDSJq-4duivQtSkXBimAD9AERNNO0

[struggle4progress]

16. ... Huntley first travelled to Canada on a six-month work permit in 2004 and worked as a carnival

attendant. He went back to Canada in 2005 and, after his work permit expired, he stayed on illegally until making his refugee claim in April last year ...
SA man gets asylum in Canada for being white
1 September 2009, 07:28
By Craig Mckune
http://www.capetimes.co.za/?fSectionId=273&fArticleId=vn20090901040349609C242817

[JI7]

7. anyone know if there are other south african whites doing the same thing ?

[struggle4progress]

42. Canada shocked to learn Huntley wasn't last white in SA

Immigration authorities in England have warned Canada to expect a deluge of young, unemployable, white South Africans to arrive in their country after an immigration and refugee panel, made up of white folk who had never been to Africa, bought into former Cape Town resident Brandon Huntley's paranoia and granted him refugee status. "There won't be enough pubs and restaurants in Vancouver and Toronto to employ them all," said an unnamed Home Office source.

http://hayibo.com/

[Autonomy]

77. That is satirical

The source is a satirical online newspaper. Did you not know, or just expect people not to notice? C'mon there's no byline on the article!

"The row provided much sport for the satirical online newspaper Hayibo.com. Its home page said yesterday: "Immigration authorities in England have warned Canada to expect a deluge of young, unemployable, white South Africans to arrive in their country after an immigration and refugee panel, made up of white folk who had never been to Africa, bought into former Cape Town resident Brandon Huntley's paranoia and granted him refugee status. 'There won't be enough pubs and restaurants in Vancouver and Toronto to employ them all,' said an unnamed Home Office source."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/01/canada-south-africa-asylum-seeker

[struggle4progress]

85. I expected most folk to figure it out quickly, as you did. Satire can still be good commentary, and

an immigration and refugee panel, made up of white folk who had never been to Africa, bought into former Cape Town resident Brandon Huntley's paranoia and granted him refugee status seems to me to be quite on the mark

The satirical nature of 'There won't be enough pubs and restaurants in Vancouver and Toronto to employ them all,' said an unnamed Home Office source (for example) seems obvious enough

[struggle4progress]

9. According to the article, Huntley's lawyer was a South African who fled South Africa

at the end of the apartheid era.

[struggle4progress]

13. ... The decision also took into account testimony by Laura Kaplan, 41, the sister of Huntley's

lawyer, who immigrated to Canada last year from her native South Africa ...

White South African granted refugee status
By DONNA CASEY, Sun Media
Last Updated: 28th August 2009, 8:09pm

[struggle4progress]

18. ... Kaplan said ... "This was the case that I had been waiting for" ...

SA man gets asylum in Canada for being white
1 September 2009, 07:28
By Craig Mckune
http://www.capetimes.co.za/?fSectionId=273&fArticleId=vn20090901040349609C242817

[Kurska]

10. I've heard of white homosexuals doing the same thing.

I don't blame them. Violence against gays, white or black is very high there.

[struggle4progress]

52. Aren't gay marriage and adoption legal there?

[Kurska]

80. Yes, doesn't change the opinion of the man on the street.

Or that of the incoming prime minister who claimed he beat up fellow teenagers for being gay.

[struggle4progress]

103. ANC Youth League distances itself from Zuma's gay-bashing statement

By Moshoeshoe Monare

The ANC Youth League - a staunch ally of ANC deputy president Jacob Zuma - has reacted to his Heritage Day gay-bashing statement, saying it was his personal view and not that of the ANC ... "If it is true that he has articulated what we have come to read about, it is his own articulation and not the ANC position and we stand by the ANC position, (which is) non-sexism, non-discrimination and equality. "Gay rights are human rights and that is what makes our constitution the most progressive in the world," Mbalula told the Cape Times ...

http://www.capetimes.co.za/general/print_article.php?fArticleId=3458959

[struggle4progress]

53. dupe

[struggle4progress]

11. White bloke moves to Canada: makes news

... The whole thing is nonsense ... Brandon Huntley comes from a suburb about 5kms from where I live. It, much like South Africa, is a melting pot of many different colours and cultures. I would happily walk around there: it’s a safe, friendly and open place. In fact, the only minor issue is that it’s full of students ... At the end of the day, if Huntley had anything to offer Canada, he would have been welcomed with open arms. That he slipped in illegally through the back door means that SA is better off without him and his strangely paranoid views. As for Canada; well, if you can just make stuff up about where you came from and they’ll believe it, then her doors are open ... Good riddance.

http://6000.co.za/

[kelly1mm]

12. He seems to meet the Canadian standards. Good for him.

South Africa has become a very dangerous place (at least more so for whites than pre majority rule). Lots of white South Africans have left the country - just like Zimbabwe before it. I can't really blame them.

[tabatha]

22. Nope, more so for blacks.

http://www.thetrumpet.com/?q=5176.3447.0.0

All the countries that have problems, resulted from Imperial interference - e.g. Iraq, Iran, South Africa, etc.

[MellowDem]

23. Considering those countries wouldn't exist...

except for imperialism, I guess technically that's true, but in reality there are a lot of very home-grown problems in all those countries as well.

[struggle4progress]

32. ANC: Canada refugee ruling racist

... a party spokesman said the African National Congress was shocked by the "sensationalist" allegations. "Canada's reasoning for granting Huntley a refugee-status can only serve to perpetuate racism," Ishmael Mnisi said. "We find the claim by Huntley to have been attacked seven times by Africans due to his skin colour - without any police intervention - sensational and alarming," he added ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8233004.stm

[MellowDem]

35. Wow, a 'racist' ruling?

Gees, if that's not crying racism I don't know what is. It's no wonder the word has little meaning anymore. The African National Congress is really shocked that a white guy could be singled out as a minority in a country where white/black relations have been quite strained? I mean, before they even have all the facts to just assume it's a lie and that it will perpetuate racism seems rather... sensationalist.

It could be that Huntley is lying, but to assume so doesn't make sense. A story like his has been experienced many times throughout history and are all too true. I guess his being white just causes those who are naive to drop their jaws in shock. A white man, being treated badly for being white!? Crazy, I tell ya! The African National Congress needs to get out and realize that the world is a complicated place and only becoming more so.

[struggle4progress]

39. You're demonstrating your ignorance of the nature of the anti-apartheid struggle

and the significance of the fact that South Africans ultimately united behind the ANC, rather than behind groups such as the PAC. The Afrikaaner Nationalists had an elaborate racialist theory which required such laughable contortions that eventually hardly anyone took it seriously. The ANC organized the country around nonracialist democratic ideals; there were other options available, but the country as a whole rejected them

You assume "white" or "black" are designations with some real meaning -- but in fact they are largely meaningless terms, and South Africa recognized that fact some time ago

[MellowDem]

43. Bullshit...

Hey, if you want to pretend race doesn't exist in South Africa, that they are "post-racial", then you go right ahead. Talk about ignorance.

[struggle4progress]

46. It is not my claim that there is absolutely no racism in South Africa,

though it is indeed my claim that there are no races in South Africa, since "race" is a nonscientific notion

The racist Afrikaaner Nationalists who supported apartheid have not all yet died off, of course, and members of the racialist opposition that they spawned (such as the PAC) are not all dead yet either. Nor do I claim that "racism" (which is nothing but an ignorant superstitution) has disappeared completely in South Africa or anywhere else, for that matter

But the facts I presented to you are neverheless accurate: the racism of the Afrikaaner Nationalists was so risible that it essentially discredited racial ideas for much of South Africa's population, and the ANC -- which did not organize based on racial ideas -- became the preferred vehicle of the opposition, when there really were other alternatives

The fact -- that the winners in the struggle over apartheid did not cast their struggle as a struggle between racial groups but as a struggle against politics based on race -- will continue to influence politics in SA for a number of years

Huntley's claim, that he is the victim of systematic race-based persecution in SA, is extemely dubious

[MellowDem]

95. How is Huntley's claim dubious?

You have an extremely rosy picture of South Africa. Most of the "racism" that occurs in the US is nothing more than bigotry, not the idea of racism per se. It is no doubt the same in South Africa. It has nothing to do with the idea that whites are superior to blacks etc. and everything to do with historical wrongdoing and the continued disparities that exist in South Africa due to apartheid. There will be blacks whose experience with whites all their life in South Africa has been extremely negative and who therefore will always carry a very skewed and bigoted view of all whites, even to the point of acting on it. Such distrust or hatred of whole groups of people happen all the time, whether it's race, religion, ethnicity, etc. especially in regions with such a torrid history between two groups.

The vast majority of the US doesn't believe in "racial ideas" anymore either. It has been thouroughly discredited by science. Even most of the people many DUers describe as "racists" don't hold such tenants anymore. Many KKK organizations don't even preach racial superiority anymore and are all about preserving "white culture" and being afraid of losing their place in society. Some even use diversity as a crutch for their bigoted ideas! But there are plenty of bigots that still steryotype based on race, as well as a whole host of other things. And this happens in South Africa no doubt as well. So is it that surprising that this could happen in South Africa? Not at all. Where there is poverty and ignorance, there exists a great reservoir for bigotry. It's why some of the poorest regions in the US are some of the most "backward".

I agree with you that race is obviously not "real" in the scientific sense. But it is real in the social sense. People will make assumptions about you because of your race when they first meet you. That in and of itself is a sign that race still exists unfortunately. The only way it will ever stop existing is when your race really doesn't matter anymore. But when different "races" can still be identified by society as those with generally more or less privilege, money, opportunity, etc., race will remain an important part of a person's identity as they relate to society as a whole. I don't like it anymore than you do, believe me. I would rather all of us were not automatically weighed down with a caricature and steryotypes simply by being born into this world with a certain skin color, and for some discrimination and lost opportunity. There are many disparities that still exist in South Africa between the races and thus race will still matter to people there.

If Huntley was harrassed, it was probably by bigots, not racists who think themselves racially superior. But to say that bigotry does not exist in a whole country is laughable at best and just plain wrong.

[struggle4progress]

98. Your claim, that the KKK doesn't preach racial superiority and is only about saving "white culture,"

tells me everything I need to know about your views

It's an old whitewash, of course, that the KKK has used for a hundred years or more when they wanted to seem polite. The Nazis used a similar whitewash, when they spoke of their volkish concerns. And the Afrikaaner racist movement, that proudly flew a three-armed swastika (the triskelion) during WWII, spent much of the apartheid era shrieking that they were concerned about protecting their culture from the savage masses

[MellowDem]

104. Whatever...

Your ignorance betrays you, which is why you can't answer to anything else. It's not a whitewash so much as a realization that people don't believe racial ideas as much anymore. That is why the KKK has changed their tactics. There is still plenty of hatred and bigotry to be had, not to mention fear and ignorance, but the old racial ideas just don't hold much weight anymore. Doesn't make them any less dangerous or harmful.

Your ignorance and willfuld disbelief tells me everything I need to know about you. You are the one saying a whole freakin' country can't have a bigoted bone in its body.

[struggle4progress]

101. In pictures: South Africans on race row (BBC)

David Galansky, 74 “What he is saying is absolute nonsense" ...
Diketso Lekhelebane, 34 “Thugs attack you because they believe you have something they want ... But to create the impression that black people are persecuting whites at every turn is not just wrong, it’s not true” ...
Andre Jute, 35 “The only thing that guy should have done was get himself a gun. White and black South Africans are both at risk of attacks here. But personally I’m not going to let anyone force me out of my country”
Tracey McKay “For a long time white males were used to being at the top of the pile for everything. It must have been shocking for people like Brandon when they realised today’s reality is very different ..."
Mathapelo Mgodini, 24 “If white and black South Africans can share prison cells without us hearing reports that whites are being attacked because of their colour, then what makes this guy think he is being targeted because of his skin colour? This is ridiculous”
Meagan Farquharson, 23 “I think if a person wants to leave the country they should. I’ve been mugged a few times and my house was broken into but it was nothing serious. That happens to everyone ..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8233004.stm

[MellowDem]

106. Sounds like what many blacks in America complain white people would say...

about a black person claiming he was being attacked because of race. "It wasn't race, he was just mugged". Your perceptions are wholly unrealistic and totally disconnected with the real world. All these quotes have done is make me realize how freeperish some of the South African populace is. If you really want to warp your mind, just interchange the races of some of those quotes and you see classic "colorblindness" in action. I especially like the one recommending he get a gun.

Look, it could be totally true that Huntley is playing the "race card" and lying about the racial slurs against him by his attackers. But to assume he is only with the information that he is white and that South Africa is somehow a racial paradise seems extremely suspect to me.

[struggle4progress]

108. The quotes come from people of varying hues as you could have verified by visiting the BBC site

[MellowDem]

112. I know...

I said interchange the races in the quotes, not the races of the people speaking the quotes. I guess I don't understand how "colorblindness" in South Africa is really just a reflection of reality where as "colorblindness" here is derided as a fantasy that ignores the continuing problems of racial divide and inequality. Every time there is even a suspected case of bigotry or racism brought up here, someone always sarcastically replies how we are "post-racial". I tend to have the same reaction in this case.

I think I would take Huntley's very common ordeal over "it can't be race, we have a perfect society" as the real story any day. Plus, I usually give the benefit of the doubt to the actual victim.

[struggle4progress]

115. If you know that, then of course your post #106 is as disingenuous as your repeated effort

to put into my mouth words I never said

[MellowDem]

117. I never quoted you...

I was just quoting the logic of some of those quotes. I'm fully aware you never said that or think that necessarily. Sorry if you thought that was the case.

[struggle4progress]

122. Have a nice day

:hi:

[Christa]

166. I am a South African emigrant to the US

I fought apartheid when it was still the law; I was a member of the outlawed but now ruling ANC.

I experienced more racism here in the US than in post apartheid South Africa, and it shocked me.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

59. Meaningless, well sure unless you happen to be white and seeking employment

the affirmative action policies in South Africa are a fit of insanity, which rather than promoting blacks and other non-white minorities tend to simply leave positions unfilled and whites unemployed.

[struggle4progress]

61. What? No link? Why am I not surprised?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

63. read all about it,

http://www.labour.gov.za/legislation/acts/basic-guides/basic-guide-to-affirmative-action

Compliance is basically impossible,

[tabatha]

76. Home-grown

like years of poverty and denial of basic human needs and rights.
Read the book "Kaffir Boy".

[Odin2005]

161. And they elected a misogynistic rapist fuckwit as president.

South Africa is going straight to Hell.

[FarrenH]

179. Keep in mind that Zuma was cleared of rape charges

The woman who brought the charges against him had a history of mental disturbance and false rape allegations against other men and her testimony was incoherent. The court was given ample reason to believe she lied.

[struggle4progress]

14. ... Huntley told the refugee board that he was called "a white dog" and "a settler" ...

White South African granted refugee status
By DONNA CASEY, Sun Media
Last Updated: 28th August 2009, 8:09pm

... I spent a large portion of my life in the Southern Suburbs and, in particular, Mowbray. My mother’s office was in Mowbray, as well as my bank branch. I didn’t LIVE in the area and I’m aware that it’s not exactly Upper Newlands, but I had and still have a number of friends living there. I have never heard of any of them, nor any other white person I know living anywhere EVER being called a “white dog” or a “settler" ...
WHITE MOWBRAY MAN GETS REFUGEE STATUS IN CANADA
http://www.2oceansvibe.com/2009/08/31/white-mowbray-man-gets-refugee-status-in-canada/

[struggle4progress]

15. ... He had not reported any of the attacks to the police ...

SA man gets asylum in Canada for being white
1 September 2009, 07:28
By Craig Mckune
http://www.capetimes.co.za/?fSectionId=273&fArticleId=vn20090901040349609C242817

[ZombieHorde]

19. From your link...

He said the evidence offered by Huntley, immigration lawyer Russell Kaplan and witness Lara Kaplan, who emigrated to Canada last year, "shows a picture of indifference and inability or unwillingness of the government and security forces to protect white South Africans from persecution by African South Africans".

[tabatha]

21. Actually, I attended a conference in South Africa

and the blacks suffer far more from the crime than the whites do.

[ZombieHorde]

25. What year was this?

[struggle4progress]

30. The vast majority of South Africans do not have European complexions,

so any interaction in SA is with higher probability an interaction with a darker-skinned person

Add to that the facts, that during the colonial period and the years of Afrikaaner Nationalist government the darker-skinned population was treated in a systematic fashion and that the constitutional reform had no impact whatsoever on the inequitable wealth and property distribution that had been created by aiming machine guns at people and relocating them

Finally, take into account the fact -- valid in essentially every country in the world -- that crime rates and victimization are higher among the poor

You think of yourself as a rational person: you ought to be able to draw the simple statistical inferences

[ZombieHorde]

33. I don't see how your post conflicts with the Canadian immigration and refugee board's findings.

The Canadian immigration and refugee board claimed the refugee was the target of racism.

[struggle4progress]

36. It is very simple. In SA, whenever anyone is the victim of ordinary crime, it is

likely (for the most trivial demographic reasons) that the perpetrators are dark-skinned; and similarly (again, for the most trivial demographic reasons) if one were to catalog crime victims by skin color, most will be dark-skinned

If you collect newspaper stories from SA, and try to sort them into piles according to the reported skin-color of the perpetrators, you expect most stories will involve perpetrators with darker rather than lighter skin because most people (and so most criminals) in SA are not light-skinned. If you collect newspaper stories from SA about criminal attacks on light-skinnbed people, and try to sort them into piles according to the reported skin-color of the perpetrators, you again expect most stories will involve perpetrators with darker rather than lighter skin because most people (and so most criminals) in SA are not light-skinned. The economic demographics should only be expected to enhance such effects. That has nothing to do with persecution of anybody: it's a matter of simple statistics

[ZombieHorde]

38. OK, that is a good argument, but I would need to see the evidence the

Canadian board reviewed before I could dismiss the claim. There could be more to this story than simply, "White guy attacked by Black guys."

[struggle4progress]

40. ... Between 30 and 40 newspaper clippings outlining stories from South Africa that supported

Mr Huntley’s point of view were .. presented as evidence ...

Wednesday, September 2, 2009
Refugee status of white South African in Canada condemned
BILL CORCORAN in Cape Town
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0902/1224253665847.html

[ZombieHorde]

44. Well, the newspaper clippings may have provided some meat to the claim.

The clippings may have strongly established the type of discrimination described by the refugee.

Are you bothered by Canada accepting this man as a refugee?

[struggle4progress]

50. Canada, of course, is a sovereign state, free to operate as it sees fit: but

I knew a number of South Africans during the apartheid years, and I am not much impressed by (1) the lawyer, Mr Kaplan, who appears to have fled South Africa when it became clear the anti-apartheid forces were winning, (2) an immigration panel that allows Mr Kaplan to present his own sister as a witness to win an immigration case that does not directly involve her, or (3) Mr Kaplan's client, who sounds like many racists heard frequently here in the US

[ZombieHorde]

81. Do you have any evidence the refugee is racist? nt

[struggle4progress]

99. That fact that he's a skinhead, who complains he's a victim of affirmative action,

might count as a bit of evidence

http://graphics8.nytimes.com.nyud.net:8090/images/2009/09/02/world/africa/02lede_canada.190.jpg

[ZombieHorde]

100. Shaved head means nothing, what was his AA quote?

[struggle4progress]

102. ... Huntley also said he had been able to find employment only because of family connections. He was

otherwise prohibited from finding work by the country's affirmative action policies ...
SA man gets asylum in Canada for being white
1 September 2009, 07:28
By Craig Mckune
http://www.capetimes.co.za/?fSectionId=273&fArticleId=vn20090901040349609C242817

... Mr Huntley applied for refugee status last year saying he was persecuted by black people, and that he was unable to secure work because of the government’s affirmative action policy ...
Wednesday, September 2, 2009
Refugee status of white South African in Canada condemned
BILL CORCORAN in Cape Town

... Mr. Davis said in his ruling ... that Mr. Huntley would be unable to find a job in South Africa because of affirmative action in favour of blacks ...
Geoffrey York
South African's refugee case causes backlash against ‘racist' Canada
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/south-africans-refugee-case-causes-backlash-against-racist-canada/article1272553/

[ZombieHorde]

107. His claim may be true. He may be a victim of bigotry.

Even if he is a bigot himself, he still may be a victim of bigotry.

[struggle4progress]

109. The Freedom Charter (1955)

We, the People of South Africa, declare for all our country and the world to know:

that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white, and that no government can justly claim authority unless it is based on the will of all the people;

that our people have been robbed of their birthright to land, liberty and peace by a form of government founded on injustice and inequality;

that our country will never be prosperous or free until all our people live in brotherhood, enjoying equal rights and opportunities;

that only a democratic state, based on the will of all the people, can secure to all their birthright without distinction of colour, race, sex or belief;

And therefore, we, the people of South Africa, black and white together equals, countrymen and brothers adopt this Freedom Charter;

And we pledge ourselves to strive together, sparing neither strength nor courage, until the democratic changes here set out have been won ...

http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/charter.html

[ZombieHorde]

110. Nice words, but I don't see how they pertain to our discussion.

The actually law would need to be reviewed, and the actual real life application of the law in the refugee's area would have to be reviewed.

The local authorities may have turned a blind eye to some situations.

[struggle4progress]

114. The point is this: the South Africans who engineered the end of apartheid did so by constructing

a progressive and inclusive coalition dedicated to equal rights for everyone: for atheists, for women, for people who identified themselves with tribal groups, for people regardless of skin color. The decision to work towards such a coalition was not a sudden last-minute tactic but a strategy that resulted from a sustained and principled analysis over many years

It is a political reality that that strategy won. And it was promptly followed by a policy of national reconciliation, that offered to return forgiveness for truth

Given the violence of the apartheid regime, and the gross life-threatening inequities that regime sought to perpetuate, the transition to a post-apartheid state could have been a bloodbath that left the country in ruins and was followed by a long period of official reprisals. The winning strategy successfully negotiated these dangers, and what occurred instead was a sudden capitulation by the racists and a peaceful transition

That transition occurred rather recently: it is well within the memory of people who are still politically active. Having crafted such a winning coalition, why would they discard it by attempting to organize instead around a new inverse racism now? And in fact there's no reason to think they have done so ...

[ZombieHorde]

118. So, the refugee was only racist in South Africa?

That seems silly.

And in fact there's no reason to think they have done so ...

30 to 40 news articles concerning racism in S.A. were reviewed by the Canadian immigration and refugee board.

[struggle4progress]

111. The Nature of the South African Ruling Class (1985)

Our movement's political statements and documents abound with broad generalities that refer to the 'white group', 'white minority', 'racist minority', etc. Though we do not by any means question the validity of these terms to characterise the very visible line-up of forces within South Africa, it has to be admitted that they are not of much assistance in clarifying exactly who the ruling class in South Africa are ...

The ruling class does not rule on its own, since it is a minority within the white minority. In order to secure its position, it has had to come to terms with other class forces; make deals and reach compromises with class forces and fractions whose interests temporarily intersect with its own. From such alliances has emerged what we can refer to as a bloc led by the ruling class, which wields power. The matrix that holds this bloc together is the ideology of white supremacy which projects the particular interest of the ruling capitalist class, as the general interest of all whites ...

The enactment of these measures will place political power in the hands of the black masses and transform South Africa from a country belonging to and exploited by a small class of white capitalists and their imperialist allies, into a country belonging to all who live in it, black and white ...

http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/ruling.html

[ZombieHorde]

119. This has nothing to do with the refugee's claim. nt

[struggle4progress]

121. See my post #114

[ZombieHorde]

131. Post #114 does not address the refugee's claims. nt

[struggle4progress]

132. That depends on what you think Huntley's actual claim under Canadian law is:

he claims to be the victim of racially-motivated attack and of an official unwillingness to protect. With respect to the first, the only evidence is his own testimony; with respect to the second, a number of S Africans of various skin-colors think it is nonsense, and I have provided various historical documents supporting an argument that such an official policy would be politically very unlikely

Since you're not providing evidence to support your views, this won't go anywhere productive

Have a nice day :hi:

[ZombieHorde]

133. Most any large group of individuals will have some bad apples.

South African police departments are an unlikely exception. Your argument seems to assume all of the police officers are good people.

[struggle4progress]

146. Huntley never reported the alleged attacks to police. You want investigations by ESP?

Perhaps you think police are using some psychic abilities to protect dark-skinned people from crime but are not using psychic abilities to protect light-skinned people from crime? Or maybe you think police are beaming bad energy at some people and good energy at other people, based on skin-color?

I didn't report crimes to the police because I knew the police wouldn't investigate. And, sure enough, the police didn't investigate the crimes I didn't report to them. See? So I was right not to report them!

[ZombieHorde]

147. There were many newspaper articles which were reviewed

by the Canadian immigration and refugee board concerning the allegations. The Board decided the evidence was solid enough to give the man refugee status, I see no reason for concern.

[struggle4progress]

148. "The Board" in this case means ONE person, and the Canadian government will appeal the ruling

if allowed by the courts. Corroborating links are near the end of the thread

[struggle4progress]

113. Constitution of the African National Congress (1991)

... The aims and objectives of the ANC shall be

1. To unite all the people of South Africa, Africans in particular, for the complete liberation of the country from all forms of discrimination and national oppression.
2. To end apartheid in all its forms and transform South Africa as rapidly as possible into a united, non-racial, non-sexist and democratic country based on the principles of the Freedom Charter.
3. To defend the democratic gains of the people and advance towards a society in which the government is freely chosen by the people according to the principles of universal suffrage on a common voter's role ...

1. The ANC is a non-racial and a democratic liberation movement ...
3. The ANC shall in its composition and functioning be non-racial, anti-racist and anti-sexist and against any form of tribalistic exclusivism or ethnic chauvinism ...
7. Membership of all bodies of the ANC will be open to all men and women in the organisation without regard to race, colour or creed ...

http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/constanc.html

[struggle4progress]

48. ... South Africa has one of the highest crime rates in the world ... However, the majority

of victims are black people from the townships who cannot afford private security ... South African home affairs spokesperson Ronnie Mamoepa said ... “It would have been courteous for the Canadian government to allow the South African government to respond to the allegations” ...

Wednesday, September 2, 2009
Refugee status of white South African in Canada condemned
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2009/0902/1224253665847.html

[struggle4progress]

68. ... excerpts from the ruling were provided by Mr. Huntley's lawyer, Russell Kaplan, who declined to

release the entire ruling ...

South African's refugee case causes backlash against ‘racist' Canada
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/south-africans-refugee-case-causes-backlash-against-racist-canada/article1272553/

[tabatha]

75. Agreed.

And poverty begets crime.
Lack of education begets crime.

[struggle4progress]

24. The lawyer Kaplan's a white guy who fled SA when apartheid began to collapse, Laura is his sister,

and the lawyer sez he was this was just the case he wanted; see links I posted upthread

[ZombieHorde]

26. I don't understand your point. nt

[struggle4progress]

31. Then perhaps you should think a bit harder

[kelly1mm]

83. Throughout this thread you have insinuated that the refugee, his

lawyer, and maybe his sister have racist motives in this case. You have been asked several times directly if you think that is true. As of yet I cannot find a simple answer from you. If you think and of the players are racist just say so and why. You have done a great deal of research on this case (thanks for that!) and so I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

[struggle4progress]

27. ... Crime is bad but it's hardly a systematic mistreatment of white people. It's a systematic

mistreatment of South Africans by criminals perhaps; will Canada offer all South Africans asylum? Or this one of those whites only deals? ...

Canadians must not be very clever just ask Brandon Huntley
http://www.mydigitallife.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1048909&Itemid=29

[ZombieHorde]

28. The Canadian immigration and refugee board disagrees with you.

I don't know a single member on that board, and I have not witnessed the refugee's life, but I have little reason to disregard the Canadian immigration and refugee board's findings.

[struggle4progress]

67. ... Stéphane Malépart, a spokesman for the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, said the board

cannot release the Huntley decision or make any comment on the ruling since all of its cases are heard in private and its tribunals operate at arm's length from the government. But he said the federal government could seek judicial review of any decision by appealing it to the Federal Court of Canada ...
South African's refugee case causes backlash against ‘racist' Canada
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/south-africans-refugee-case-causes-backlash-against-racist-canada/article1272553/

[FarrenH]

175. They are wrong

take it from one of South Africa's 5 million white people. The decision was based entirely on hearsay and demonstrably false hearsay at that. The decision was either racist or incompetent in nature.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

60. well, under the "leadership" of Jacob Zuma I guess we will find out

I suspect many South Africans of all backgrounds will be seeking refugee status in large numbers in the coming years,

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

58. yeah, calling the police in south africa is really productive.

If anybody shows up there is a 50/50 chance the police themselves will rob you, or threaten you with arrest and demand a bribe. We actually got a cop arrested after the moron kept screaming his name over and over again while we were on the phone.

[notesdev]

37. The next truly progressive human rights issue

is going to be opposing racism against whites.

We'll see then who really supports equal rights, who is really against racism, and who is simply anti-Western civilization.

[struggle4progress]

41. The progressive stance is that there is no such thing as race

[Psephos]

54. Race is a visual way of sorting strangers into the in-group or the out-group

We identify with, support, and will make sacrifices on behalf of the in-group. We love them.

We are suspicious of, and bear ill will toward the out-group, and will believe nearly any bad thing said about them. We hate them.

The in-group/out-group identification urge is biological. It conferred great survival advantage when humans lived in tribes, as they did for almost all of human existence. It is woven deep into human DNA because those who did not have it were rubbed out of existence when they came up against those who did have it.

It is the root of politics, which just another system of in-group/out-group tribal identification. Others are male/female, old/young, South-siders/North-Siders, Bloods/Crips, rich/poor, New Yorkers/Midwesterners, HRC supporters/BHO supporters, Chavistas/antiChavistas, et cetera, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

There is a complete literature on this well-known primate phenomenon and its culmination in human development. Provided that one's science isn't tainted by one's tribal beliefs (i.e., politics), it's fascinating, predictive, and insightful.

Perhaps the best introductory book on it is Love and Hate: The Natural History of Behavior Patterns by Ireneus Eibl-Eibsfeldt.

You can a used hardcover copy of it on Amazon delivered for $4.00. Four bucks to forever change your understanding of race and politics is not a bad use of money.

http://www.amazon.com/Love-Hate-Behavior-Patterns-Foundations/dp/020202038X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251867624&sr=8-2

[struggle4progress]

56. I doubt whether there's really any good scientific explanation for racism. It's

essentially impossible to provide a good scientific definition of race: the genetic variations within any supposed "race" are as large as the genetic variations in the human species as a whole, and alleged "races" always merge wherever they are in contact for extended periods, since normal males and females are generally attracted to a wide variety of members of the opposite sex. One might expect people to have some natural biological dispositions to protect close relatives preferentially, but given the fact that there are no biological reproductive barriers between supposed "races," families can easily contain individuals with features sometimes regarded as indicating different "races"

People certainly form insider/outsider ideas, but there's no particular reason that must be determined by nose shape or hair color or the length of the second toe, although such markers have been used in specific cultures at specific times. The distinction could equally well be something like we speak high German not low German or we're Danish not Irish or we don't spell our name the same way they do or we're Episcopalian not Baptist. Such distinctions do not seem biological in nature, though the tendency to insider/outsider distinctions may be

[Autonomy]

79. Most branches of science

would consider such lack of definition "phenomenological", which does not deny the reality of the subject perception due to a lack of supporting theory. Medicine uses the term "syndrome" in a similar sense. Only anthropolgy uses the such a lack of fundamental theory to deny a measurable phenomenon, which is actually anti-scientific.

Coupled with your above appeal to conformity/dogma ("the progressive stance is"), and your citing a satirical source as credible, I find your argument unconvincing.

Fortunately, I do not believe the problems of racism are an inherent aspect of social organization, so social problems can be addressed even if race is somehow "real". It is not necessary to disprove the existence of race to address social problems.

[kelly1mm]

45. Interesting thoughts. What country (besides SA and Zim) do

you think this will become an issue in? Since demographics is destiny in the looooooong term I can see what you are predicting coming to pass. If you have any further thoughts on this I would love to read them.

[notesdev]

47. The US and Europe

We are in a time of failing institutions; institutions that served some purpose in the past, but which have become obsolete or destructive to those purposes over time.

One of those institutions is the civil rights establishment. We have gone long past equal rights and have dived headlong into outright racism conducted by the government.

There are two ways this could resolve itself. The first way is to truly adopt MLK's dream - to judge by content of character rather than color of skin. The second way is political, for those that gained privileges to fight to keep them tooth and nail... which will eventually lead to a backlash that may reverse many of the gains of that establishment in the first place.

I see it here, and in the UK especially - white people are tired of being told they are evil and racist as an inherent property of their skin color, and they know that every initiative designed to promote the interests of a particular race comes at their expense. This will either unwind itself into a generally peaceful equality of races, or, if the promoters of race-based interests continue to dig in, a potentially violent backlash.

People are people, and policies that divide them according to skin color cannot be maintained without creating a strong and interested opposition.

[noiretextatique]

87. laughable, truly

considering that we haven't yet dealt with racism against blacks, latinos, indians, etc, etc, etc.
of course discrimination against white people is far, far worse than anything else, including slavery :eyes:

[Sultana]

55. Apartheid is only dead on paper

Sorry, this move by the Canadian Gov't is a bit laughable. But SA is fucked up!

[struggle4progress]

66. Editorial: Race and crime do not go hand in hand

... News that Canada has granted a white South African refugee status because his life is in danger at the hands of his black countrymen ... says more about Canadian perceptions than South African reality. The truth is that the overwhelming majority of crime victims in this country are black and many of the perpetrators are white. But such perceptions cannot just be wished away, they must be actively neutralised by every South African that is proud of their country ...

http://blogs.thetimes.co.za/hartley/

[tabatha]

78. Thanks for all your comments - you have researched this well.

[kelly1mm]

82. While your comments are true on their face concerning the fact

that most crime victims are black (or non white) but does not take into account proportional numbers. To use the statistics correctly one would have to determine if some class of victims was out of proportion to their population percentage as a whole. This would not be correct on its face either because (I admit I am assuming) most crimes are financially motivated in SA as they are in the US. If that is true and if whites have proportionally more wealth then, as John Dillinger said when asked why he robbed banks "that's where the money is!". Thanks for your links and comments - very though provoking.

[Nevernose]

124. FYI, it was WIllie Sutton who said that (and neo-cons are the root of SA's problems)

...and not John Dillinger.

Agreed with your major point, though. It's too easy for us here in the North to simplify South Africa into a literal white or black. These days especially, the problems in SA are overwhelmingly about a privileged upper class and a poor lower class, or at least that was my understanding. I was under the impression that SA was an example of neo-cons run amok, that the original plan was to nationalize the banks and mines to make reparations for apatheid, and instead things were privatized and neo-con-ized and things are worse than ever.

[kelly1mm]

125. Thanks for the correction! Should have checked myself. nt

[struggle4progress]

127. More precisely, though John Dillinger didn't say it, it wasn't John Dillinger who didn't say it,

it was Willie Sutton who didn't say it:

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/sutton.asp

[Blue_Tires]

72. wow...that flimsy-assed excuse got him in the country??

I hope the Canadian review board is as understanding with me when my time comes...

and if it is open season on white folks there, how did South Africa get the World Cup?? millions of cash-stuffed visitors will be there next summer; a sizable chunk of that will be Europeans and North Americans...

[BreweryYardRat]

88. "how did South Africa get the World Cup??"

At a guess, I'd say this is your answer: "Millions of cash-stuffed visitors will be there next summer."

Smart money says the organized crime syndicates down there bribed whatever committee determines these things. Or they bribed the politicians who convinced the committee.

The murder rate might drop (can't shear a dead sheep more than once) for the World Cup, but I'd bet the robbery rate skyrockets, and a lot of the thieves' profits will probably get "taxed" for the "bosses."

[Blue_Tires]

89. and my next question of course is

if he got in because blacks are supposedly targeting the white population, what's stopping the bulk of white South Africans from making a mass exodus??

[Freddie Stubbs]

84. It's pretty dangerous for black people there too

It has one of the highest murder rates in the world. I have some friends who got the heck out of there a few years ago.

[struggle4progress]

92. High-level talks between SA, Canada

By Craig McKune and Sapa

... the Canadian government said it would not comment on the decision to grant Brandon Huntley, 31, refugee status as it was made by an independent, "quasi-judicial" body. Canadian citizenship and immigration minister Jason Kenney, however, told South African high commissioner to Canada, Abraham Nkomo, it did not "necessarily" support the decision, Nkomo told the Cape Times ...

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=6&art_id=nw20090902195033481C809440

[treestar]

94. It's the Canadian Board's call

If they believe it, then the guy gets to stay in Canada.

[Tim01]

123. Lots of whites have fled SA.

The ones that have stayed, especially if they have big farms, are in very serious danger. Lot of home invasions with shootings.
One guy I talked to recently said his farm that he left in SA is now deserted and falling in.

[kelly1mm]

126. Sounds like the rhodesia-to-zimbabwe transition. nt

[Tim01]

129. I am not educated on that. I only know about the whites in SA.

And I only know about that because I am a hunter, so I know African and S/A hunters, and therefore SA land owners.

I have been thinking about going to Africa on a big game hunt, so I have been talking to people who go there on a regular basis.
I have no interest in killing for sport or trophies, and you can't bring the meat back, so I will be doing my hunting with a very powerful..........camera.
I don't think the other African big game hunters get me, but they are happy to put up with me.
Anyway. I've heard lots of stories of gangs of men with guns entering houses. Some people are making a stand, hoping to keep the family house they have had for hundreds of years. Others are leaving, content with saving their lives.
I am not surprised at all the whites are being attacked, considering the history. Everybody should have seen that coming.
The whites should have started educating the blacks and bringing them up to equal status a long time ago.
What you reap is what you sow.

[Christa]

167. About 25 % of whites fled post apartheid South Africa. nt

[FarrenH]

182. As others have pointed out, the majority of white South Africans

voted for the Nationalists and their Apartheid for 40 years. There wasn't a massive change of heart in the last 15 years, even though white SA attitudes have generally softened. White South Africans that left this country immediately after, or shortly after Apartheid ended are statistically likely to be racist and paranoid. Of course they aren't all that way. But the simple fact of their historical political preferences as a group mean a majority of them are. Which makes anecdotal evidence from expat white SAn's suspect at the very least.

I am white. I am South African. I live here. I still hear wild, ridiculous claims about the ANC, the "farmer holocaust" and other such bullshit regularly. And I can tell you that 90% of it is pure, racist paranoia. Just picking apart one claim made by Huntley (and many white South Africans): Getting a job. Every single white person over the age of 20 I know is gainfully employed. Affirmative action makes getting a job with large companies like banks harder, as well as the government. But since they work on quotas AND exceptions are made for jobs where specific skills are required its far from impossible. If you happen to apply for a job with a govt department that has met its PDI (previously disadvantaged individual) quota and you're white, you'll get the job. AA requirements don't extend to companies with small staff quota's or turnover. They are enforced through public sector employment and AA requirements for companies that want to win govt tenders. The employment rate (and average income) for whites is waaaaay higher than for blacks. One of my oldest friends, who is very bright and skilled, repeatedly complained to me that he was "convinced couldn't a job because of AA". This is in a field where competition from black people with requisite skills is still vanishingly small (software development) and every other white guy I know in the field had no problem getting a job (in fact most employed software devs in SA are still white males). What I didn't want to tell him is his communication (interview) skills sucked. Badly. Now that he's picked up some experience he has no problem getting a job and in fact has job-hopped quite a lot to up his salary. But this kind of self-serving, pity-me attitude is quite common among young white SA males who would rather ascribe their misfortunes to massive conspiracy than their own failings.

Dissecting the "White Farmer" holocaust that Huntley apparently alluded to in his testimony and is a staple of racist right-wing dialog here, one discovers that in proportion to most other socioeconomic groups white farmers are the LEAST at risk of being victims of crime. This is why said racist right-wing dialog always touts number of violent crimes against farmers, never the proportion of total crime it represents in SA, or the per-capita incidence against farmers compared to other groups. My parents live 100km out of Johannesburg on a plot in a quiet valley and sleep with their back door open for the dogs. No-one in fortress Johannesburg would dream of doing that.

Take it from a white South African who grew up here, went through the same Apartheid education as most of the expats you might encounter and still lives here. Most (but not all) White South African expats haven't got a fucking clue and are willing to share their ignorance of their own country with anyone who's gullible enough. Just like there are code words in US politics, there are a few concepts that will straight away tell you someone has a view of SA that is hopelessly distorted by racial paranoia. Rabbiting on about the "farmer holocaust" is one. Anyone who sees the ANC as a purely "black" party, hellbent on taking everything from whites is another. As other posters have pointed out the ANCs defining document, The Freedom Charter, explicitly states their commitment to equality and fairness for all SAs citizens, black, white, Indian or whatever. The ANC is 70 years older than Zimbabwe's ZANU-PF and was an ally of Ghandi during his activism here in SA (they even for decades tried the route of peaceful resistance). So comparisons to Zimbabwe are ridiculous on their face. The ANC is NOTHING like ZANU-PF. The fact that we have had 2 presidents who willingly stepped down after their term expired should tell anyone with a brain that.

This was actually the point of contention which caused groups like the PAC, which wanted to be a "black liberation" movement, to seperate from the ANC. While a fraction of ANC members are racist and the ANC can be faulted for corruption, maladministration and other things, they are definitely not, as a party, founded on racial prejudice. Several white people are venerated among black ANC supporters for being "heroes of the struggle". One of SA's largest black informal settlements, for instance, was named after a white ANC member (Joe Slovo) by its impoverished black residents. To this day many of the ANC's leaders are white and in fact there have been white ANC cabinet members holding the highest offices in the land from 1994. An elderly black client once told me that the PAC and AZAPO, both Black Consciousness movements that at one point played a big role in the struggle against Apartheid, fared so poorly in post-Apartheid elections because they were seen as "racist" in the predominantly black townships. And, in fact, their post-Apartheid redefining of terms like "African" to embrace anyone who identifies with African values and traditions seems to reflect an acknowledgement of this electoral weakness in said parties themselves. So anyone who takes the position that the ANC (the party and the government) is fundamentally racist against white people is basically by default a paranoid, old-fashioned white SAn racist.

That extends to whites who think most black South Africans are fundamentally racist. Controversies like the recent furore about athlete Caster Semenye often expose racial divides in how white and black South Africans view things. But I can honestly say in the 15 years since Apartheid I have encountered subtly anti-white attitudes from govt officials, shop assistants and so on maybe 8 or 9 times. And this is in a country that is 80% black. On the other hand, I have seen a black shop assistant being rude and grumpy to black customers in front of us, then to a white colleague, only to have the same colleague later regale other co-workers with a tale of a racist shop assistant minutes later. This is unfortunately a lens through which many white SAns still parse every interaction with black people and it hopelessly distorts many of their perspectives.

[Posteritatis]

128. Getting refugee status in Canada's fairly non-trivial

If the immigration board says he qualifies, that's good enough for me. I think they're too stringent about who they recognize as such as is. If this guy's being persecuted, then he's being persecuted and it doesn't matter what his skin color is. I wouldn't have minded some of the Iraq war deserters seeking asylum up here getting it as well, but that one would sadly be diplomatically impossible.

(Granted, Canada's been doing a crappy job of letting our own citizens back in lately, given that debacle in Kenya...)

[struggle4progress]

130. More than one recent return problem for dark-skinned Canadians in Kenya, it seems:

Somali Canadian to get out of Kenya
Zoe Alsop
Nairobi — Special to The Globe and Mail Wednesday, Aug. 12, 2009 08:47PM EDT
Suaad Hagi Mohamud should be dancing for joy. After 21/2 months of seedy hotel living, court dates, fingerprint tests, facial analyses, time in one of Kenya's more notorious jails, and, finally, a DNA test, the Toronto woman on trial in Kenya because Canadian officials mistakenly labelled her an imposter will be free this week to return home, according to her Toronto lawyer ... For now, though, it seems she will have to celebrate the bureaucratic way – by filling out more forms. For Ms. Mohamud, 31, it was, at least, better than more drama. “They told me to file my passport application,” she said Wednesday, explaining that the application would be used to secure an emergency travel document ...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/somali-canadian-to-get-out-of-kenya/article1250006/

Autistic Canadian trapped in Kenya for three years on passport dispute
Emily Senger, National Post Published: Thursday, August 20, 2009
A Canadian man who has been stranded in Kenya for three years after a dispute over the legitimacy of his passport photo may finally return to Canada in coming weeks, the man's lawyer said this morning. Abdihakim Mohamed, a 25-year-old Canadian who has autism, has been stuck in Kenya since a 2006 attempt to renew his passport was halted by Canadian officials who claimed his ears looked different in a new passport photo, said his Ottawa-based lawyer Jean Lash ...
http://www.nationalpost.com/most-popular/story.html?id=1912707

Fortunately for Mr. Huntley, Canada was not offended by his lips or ears

[Posteritatis]

134. Yep. I think there's a couple more there, too. God, it pisses me off. (nt)

[CHIMO]

137. Government appeals asylum ruling for South African

OTTAWA – The federal government is appealing a controversial decision by an independent tribunal to grant asylum to a white South African because he feared black persecution in his homeland.

Ottawa announced the rare move today to challenge the decision by the Immigration and Refugee Board after growing condemnation and worldwide publicity of the asylum ruling.

"Our department's lawyers as well as those from (Department of Justice) reviewed the IRB decision. The government decided to appeal the IRB decision. Further details will be provided in our various submissions to the courts," said Alykhan Velshi, spokesperson for Immigration Minister Jason Kenney.

Brandon Huntley, 31, of Ottawa, had argued that his life and his livelihood were threatened in the African National Congress's South Africa.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/690663#

[struggle4progress]

141. Canada seeks to overturn S.Africa refugee ruling (Reuters)

... "With regard to the Brandon Huntley case, the government is seeking leave to challenge the IRB decision before the Federal Court," said a spokeswoman for Canada's federal citizenship and immigration department.

The Federal Court will take about a month to decide whether to hear the case and if it agrees to do so, it will hold a hearing roughly three months after that, said a spokesman.

If the court did examine the case, it would stick to the evidence presented to the initial panel and would not be able to consider additional material ...

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE58165020090903

[struggle4progress]

144. Ottawa to challenge controversial refugee ruling (Globe and Mail)

Bill Curry and Josh Wingrove
Ottawa and Toronto — From Friday's Globe and Mail Last updated on Thursday, Sep. 03, 2009 08:38PM EDT

The Conservative government is launching a court challenge of the Immigration and Refugee Board's decision to grant a white South African asylum in Canada because of the colour of his skin ...

The minister's position was a departure from earlier this week, when he and his staff declined comment to The Globe on Mr. Huntley's case, saying it would be inappropriate because the Immigration and Refugee Board is an arm's-length agency ...

Revealed this week, the decision by lone board member William Davis accepted Mr. Huntley's argument that his safety would be in danger if he returned to South Africa ...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/ottawa-to-challenge-controversial-refugee-ruling/article1275307/

[struggle4progress]

151. Canada, asylum and the sprinkler salesman

... Canadian headline writers often play on the title of their national anthem, O Canada, when their countrymen do something particularly embarrassing. The ruling by William Davis, sole member of the immigration tribunal that heard Huntley’s case, surely qualifies for the "Oh, Canada!” treatment ...

Some if not all tribunal decisions are eventually published on the internet. Three of Davis’ rulings from 2007 can be found there ... Two .. applications Davis rejected ... The second was from an Afghan who said the Taliban were after him. Davis found the timing of this application suspect. The claimant made his refugee claim on the very same day his status in Canada expired.” And yet Huntley’s claim, made long after his visa expired, was somehow not so suspect ...

http://www.sagoodnews.co.za/newsletter_archive/canada_asylum_and_the_sprinkler_salesman.html

[struggle4progress]

145. Canada appealing controversial refugee case (AP)

By ROB GILLIES (AP) – 2 hours ago

... Deepak Obrai, Canada's parliamentary secretary to the minister of Foreign Affairs and a Conservative lawmaker in Prime Minister Stephen Harper's government, expressed outrage over the board's decision in a statement and said it shows a serious lack of judgment ...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5idk96kXAfDSJq-4duivQtSkXBimAD9AG4UPO5

[struggle4progress]

153. SA’s white refugee faces deportation

Werner Swart, Shanaaz Eggington, Prega Govender and BiéNne Huisman
Published:Sep 05, 2009

... This week a group of 133 academics from 13 South African and six overseas universities, wrote an open letter to Canada’s charge d’affairs in Pretoria, Jeff White, distancing themselves from Huntley’s views.

“Huntley paints a picture of white South Africans as a victimised minority, persecuted by a vengeful and racially vindictive black majority,” they wrote.

“This is deeply insulting to the great majority of black South Africans who have embraced reconciliation and also to those many white South Africans who value the opportunity to participate in building the non-racial, non-sexist society envisioned by our constitution.”

The group, which includes Professor Jonathan Jansen, the vice-chancellor of the University of Free State, and political commentator Adam Habib, added that the “outrageously distorted representation of contemporary South Africa does not square with the realities in our country” ...

http://www.thetimes.co.za/PrintEdition/News/Article.aspx?id=1061111

[struggle4progress]

170. Court would overturn Huntley decision - expert

mmigration lawyer Gary Eisenberg says the ruling by Canada's Immigration and Refugee Board granting South African Brandon Huntley refugee status as a white man persecuted by black criminals would almost certainly be overturned if reviewed in court.

He told the Sunday Times that if the Federal Court did agree to consider the matter - the Canadian Government has instructed its lawyers to fight the decision - Huntley could be in trouble. 'The danger for him is that the Federal Court will test how reliable the evidence was that he presented to the board' ...

http://www.legalbrief.co.za/article.php?story=20090907164429215

[struggle4progress]

138. Lawyer's sister a key witness at S. African's hearing

Ottawa is challenging refugee board's ruling
Last Updated: Thursday, September 3, 2009 | 8:14 PM ET
By Krista Erickson, CBC News

... "It is rather strange that a great deal of the testimony of this case is attributed to hearsay evidence of Mr. Kaplan's sister, Laura, who is not even the primary applicant in this case," said Anesh Maistry, a spokesman for the South African High Commission in Ottawa ...

Details of Laura Kaplan's testimony weren't meant to be public, but were inadvertently revealed in documents provided to CBC News by Russell Kaplan. Kaplan's office attempted to black out sections of the panel's ruling containing his sister's testimony. The redactions weren't carried out properly and the text underneath is visible ...

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2009/09/03/refugee-south-africa-white-0903.html

[struggle4progress]

139. White South African Brandon Huntley 'lied to Canada' to get asylum

Jonathan Clayton, Johannesburg | September 04, 2009

... Brandon Huntley, 31, who fled from Cape Town to Canada in April, told immigration officials police had failed to protect him from black assailants, who attacked and stabbed him on three occasions because he was white ... But Mr Huntley admitted yesterday he had not reported the attacks to the police. "I refuse to talk to the government," he told The Star newspaper in Johannesburg ...

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,26022010-32682,00.html

[struggle4progress]

140. I'm a celebrity, says refugee

... Huntley appears to have initially welcomed the publicity by a newspaper in Ottowa, writing on the social networking Internet site Facebook on Wednesday: "Look for me in tomorrow's Ottawa Sun people, look out I'm a celebrity!" ...

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=6&art_id=nw20090903090206448C404952

[struggle4progress]

142. Canada's asylum fiasco

A South African overstayer's refugee claim has caused huge embarrassment – and may spell the end for Stephen Harper
Heather Mallick
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 3 September 2009 10.00 BST

Canadians are rolling their eyes at the latest oddity to emerge from their confused, clogged immigration system: a white South African admitted as a refugee because he claimed he was being persecuted by black people.

His lawyer says the case sets a precedent, which it well might, although it's difficult to pin down exactly what it is. Brandon Huntley, a 31-year-old lawn sprinkler salesman who came to Canada on a work visa in 2006 and stayed illegally, told the Immigration and Refugee Board that he had been mugged and stabbed seven times by black people in his home country. He didn't report the attacks to the "untrustworthy" police.

A Canadian refugee board member agreed that Huntley deserved asylum, saying he would "stand out like a sore thumb" in South Africa because of his skin colour and would be unable to find a job because of affirmative action favouring black people. (The official unemployment rate for South African white people is in fact 4.6% compared to 27.9% for black people.) ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/sep/03/white-south-african-canada-asylum

[oct2010]

143. So can he legally call himself an "African American" ? nt

[kelly1mm]

150. Can't everyone? Humanity originated in the great rift valley

so we are all "African" if you go back far enough. Lots of people mark the "native american" box on forms that ask for racial characteristics that are not "first nations" descendent's. Lots of problems with racial categorization. The first "white" settlers to what is now SA arrived around the 1650's - lots longer than most Americans descendents arrived in north america.

[scrinmaster]

157. Probably not in Canada...

[struggle4progress]

152. At home in SA, says Canadian

... His assertion is ludicrous. I am also white, and I’ve lived in this beautiful country for eight years now. I married into a great big Zulu family, and I’ve been privileged to travel . I’ve always been treated with more acceptance, warmth and hospitality than I probably deserved. Brandon has his experience, and I also have mine. You find what you’re looking for, I say.

http://www.thetimes.co.za/PrintEdition/Insight/Article.aspx?id=1060799

[struggle4progress]

154. Huntley’s stunt a symptom of growing white amnesia

... While fear and anger about criminal violence is entirely rational, white self-pity fictionalises both the past and the present. Most infuriating is a widespread white urge to amnesiac self-aggrandisement, linked to a ludicrous myth of white South African excellence. Because we’re privileged, we imagine we’ve somehow earned our privilege.

There’s nothing to be smug about. Barring a small minority of dissidents, the three apartheid generations of white South Africans nearly destroyed this country — whether through active or passive complicity in oppression. Only a tour de force of political genius from the ANC and a visionary National Party elite averted the cataclysm of civil war.

And now, with all the sins of our fathers and mothers so wisely forgiven, it remains astonishingly easy to lead an easy life if you’re a young, white South African. White wealth (like black wealth) has grown massively since 1994. Most of us have the priceless advantage of a decent education in a skills-starved economy, along with the assets of family surety, family property, and an abiding prejudice in our favour among white employers. These factors far outweigh the corrective prejudice of affirmative action, particularly since that policy nudges white graduates towards lucrative entrepreneurial and private sector work, and away from the public service, where our skills are so desperately needed.

Whites are too quick to forget that the crime wave is a long, slow reverberation of apartheid’s violence. The figures show this clearly: violent crime is slowly but surely abating, despite the chronic incompetence of our criminal justice system. In 1994-1995, 67 of every 100 000 South Africans were murdered; by 2007-2008, that toll had fallen to 38 of every 100000 ...

http://www.thetimes.co.za/PrintEdition/Insight/Article.aspx?id=1060828

[struggle4progress]

155. South Africa’s new comedy hero

Saturday, September 5, 2009 07:41 PM
Geoffrey York

... One newspaper, the Mail & Guardian, suggested that the Canadian official who made the refugee decision would be a perfect sucker for a Nigerian email scam. The newspaper promised him a $1-million award for his “brave decision” in the Huntley case, and added: “As soon as you send a $50,000 (US) handling fee, the money will be transferred to your account.”

The newspaper also praised Mr. Huntley for his “dofness” – a South African term that remains obscure to me, but apparently is the perfect description of Mr. Huntley’s attitude towards life. “This is a man who is so damned lazy he couldn’t be bothered to report to police the seven vicious attacks on his person,” the newspaper said. “Respect” ...

Canada and Mr. Huntley even made a surprise appearance in “Madam and Eve,” the most popular cartoon strip in South Africa, revolving around the adventures of a typical white South Africa housewife and her black “domestic” (i.e., her maid). In the latest episode, Eve’s fearless 8-year-old cousin Thandi suggests that the housewife’s elderly mother should take a hint from the Huntley case and seek refugee status in Britain to escape the torment of having a maid who brings her chilled gin-and-tonics every day at 5 p.m. ...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/africa-chronicle/south-africas-new-comedy-hero/article1277677/

[struggle4progress]

156. Canada gets the muddled asses

... With that Kenyan interloper in the White House, I had lost all hope of being allowed to emigrate to the free world purely on the basis of my skin colour. Like Huntley, I have no skills to speak of. He is an unemployed water sprinkler salesman and I sit at home watching Jerry Springer and verbally abusing the maid. That should be worth a few points in your book.

I am applying for refugee status in Canada not only because you treat white people with the respect they deserve, but also because I want to see Viagra Falls and visit the Red Indian reservations. Do you let them out on weekends? I hope not ...

Truth be told, it’s not just Mowbray. The whole of South Africa is looking very black these days — I don’t know where they are all coming from — and even though I have only been mugged nine times, stabbed twice, shot four times, raped once and murdered on three separate occasions, I still feel persecuted. The darkies no longer step into the road to let me pass. They talk back and openly make full eye contact while doing so. They are allowed out after sunset and brazenly sit at the bar instead of outside on the pavement ...

I understand Huntley gave you newspaper clippings to show what life is like in South Africa. I am also enclosing some clippings. Please take note of the one headlined: “Alien space monsters raided my womb”. This proves we are also being persecuted by extraterrestrials, probably from a black-run planet ...

http://www.thetimes.co.za/PrintEdition/Insight/Article.aspx?id=1060647

[Odin2005]

158. The first thing that popped into my head was the new movie "District 9"

All the abuse being thrown at this guy is sickening. Just because he is a white South African doesn't automatically mean he is some racist jerk that "deserves what's coming to him".

[FarrenH]

180. As far as this white South African,

living in SA is concerned, he's a liar who was willing to construct a racist fable which impugns an entire race in order to get into Canada. Of course he deserves ridicule. Heaps of it.

[struggle4progress]

162. Let's summarize what we know about this case so far, which is limited because

Mr. Huntley's lawyer, Russell Kaplan ... declined to release the entire ruling

Mr. Kaplan, an immigration lawyer and himself a former South African, who has said "This was the case that I had been waiting for", attempted to black out sections of the panel's ruling when releasing parts of it, in order to hide the fact that much of the testimony was hearsay evidence of Mr. Kaplan's sister, Laura who immigrated to Canada last year from .. South Africa

The "panel" hearing the case consisted of one person, William Davis. Davis has not always sympathetic to refugees claiming they are endangered: for example, he once rejected an Afghan who said the Taliban were after him ... <because> claimant made his refugee claim on the very same day his status in Canada expired. But he was sympathetic to Huntley, who was in Canada illegally

Huntley persuaded Davis he was .. persecuted by black people. In support of this, the sometime carnival attendant and lawn sprinkler salesman said he was unable to secure work because of the government’s affirmative action policy and that whites are targeted by black criminals in South Africa and that the government does nothing to protect them. The general impact of the affirmative action policies on person's of Huntley's skin color may be gauged by the fact that the unemployment rate for South African white people is .. 4.6% compared to 27.9% for black people. Huntley also told immigration officials police had failed to protect him from black assailants, who attacked and stabbed him on three occasions because he was white, claiming he was called "a white dog" and "a settler" in these attacks. But he never reported the attacks to the police, and local reaction has been skeptical:

"The whole thing is nonsense ... Brandon Huntley comes from a suburb about 5kms from where I live. It, much like South Africa, is a melting pot of many different colours and cultures. I would happily walk around there"

"I had and still have a number of friends living there. I have never heard of any of them, nor any other white person I know living anywhere EVER being called a 'white dog' or a 'settler'

“What he is saying is absolute nonsense"

"His assertion is ludicrous. I am also white, and I’ve lived in this beautiful country for eight years now. I married into a great big Zulu family, and I’ve been privileged to travel . I’ve always been treated with .. acceptance, warmth and hospitality"

South African Institute of Race Relations chief executive Frans Cronje said .. claims of persecution of white South Africans were "largely without foundation"

133 academics from 13 South African and six overseas universities, wrote .. to Canada’s charge d’affairs in Pretoria .. “This is deeply insulting to the great majority of black South Africans who have embraced reconciliation and also to those many white South Africans who value the opportunity to participate in building the non-racial, non-sexist society envisioned by our constitution”

"With regard to the Brandon Huntley case, the government is seeking leave to challenge the IRB decision before the Federal Court," said a spokeswoman for Canada's federal citizenship and immigration department

[struggle4progress]

163. Brandon Huntley's tales of racism in South Africa 'are ludicrous'

From Times Online
September 7, 2009
Jonathan Clayton in Cape Town

... Mowbray is a genteel English suburb with quaint houses on tree-lined streets with names like Cheltenham, Winchester and Richmond. Children, white and black, in smart uniforms attend St George’s grammar school.

Nearby, St Peter’s Church draws a mixed crowd every Sunday.

Like much of South Africa, the area has changed enormously in recent years. Mowbray has been yuppified as young South Africans from the booming middle class have moved in. The main street now boasts Greek and Thai restaurants, art and craft shops, trendy coffee bars and bookshops. With Table Mountain’s Devil’s Peak towering over it on one side, and the ocean on the other it has a Bohemian feel to it, more San Francisco than London.

It is far from the hell hole painted by Mr Huntley. His former white neighbours don’t believe a word of his tale and — strangely, they say — no one seems to have heard of him, not even the owner of the biggest water irrigation business who claims to know “every salesman in the area” ...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article6823925.ece

[FarrenH]

164. This was a bad decision and his arguments stink to high heaven

How he got refugee status is a mystery. It looks like he may lose it too, thanks to the blowback.

Speaking as a white South African who lives in south Africa, Huntley sold the Canadian immigration authority a line of crap. Crime in SA is bad, among the worst of countries not currently in a state of civil war. But it affects everyone, moreso poor, black people. There is absolutely no evidence of a passive aggressive effort by the SA government to discriminate against white people in dealing with crime. And he claims he's been a victim of crime five times and how many years but HAS NEVER REPORTED IT.

On top of that, he's a frikken template-perfect example of the archetypal racist in denial. Loves rugby (not always an indicator but the sport that was considered as important as church by Afrikaner nationalists), braai and sunny skies, carries on about the white farmer holocaust (a common theme in right wing circles even though review of the cold, hard statistics shows farmers to be the least threatened by crime) and a whole bunch of other red flags that scream "angry white racist male" if you're a South African.

Even his friends over here expressed some disbelief at his claims to feeling "intimidated" and having been a victim of violent crime so often. The Sunday papers here report them as saying he's a big, heavily muscled man who has had extensive marshal arts training. Meanwhile his dad appears to be distancing himself from his son's decision, saying "It has nothing to do with me. He's a grown man and makes his own decisions". This was a screwy decision by the Canadian immigration board based entirely on hearsay evidence by what appear to be two racially paranoid white South Africans, and nothing else. It reeks to high heaven of opportunism by someone who simply wants to live in Canada and is casting around for an excuse.

To those who say this wasn't a racist ruling: since it appears to be entirely based on hearsay, and paranoid, racist hearsay at that, the ruling is effectively racist, although it may simply be so as a result of poor judgement by whoever made it.

[struggle4progress]

168. 'Huntley conned me into marriage'

September 08 2009 at 06:53AM
By Karyn Maughan and Craig McKune

... Brandon Huntley's estranged Canadian wife believes he "suckered" her into marriage in a bid to secure permanent residence in her country.

And mother-of-two Melanie Crete-Huntley has reacted with shock to Huntley's claims to the Canadian Immigration Board that he separated from her - after she gave him a home and financially supported him for nearly a year - because "she was not a nice woman".

"I have done nothing but try to help him," Crete-Huntley said yesterday. "I don't know why he would say things like this about me" ...

n a controversial ruling that the Canada's Department of Citizenship and Immigration is now trying to overturn, the Canadian Immigration Board ... said: "(Huntley) met his wife-to-be and fell in love with her. He married her believing that he could use her to help him to get permanent status in Canada ...

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=22&art_id=vn20090908041817228C596061

[struggle4progress]

173. Mrs Huntley wants to visit SA

By Karyn Maughan and Craig McKune

... Speaking to Independent Newspapers yesterday, an emotional Crete-Huntley said she had been "overwhelmed" by the dozens of Facebook messages she received from South Africans urging her not to believe her estranged husband's claims about their country ...

Crete-Huntley, who strongly suspects Huntley "suckered" her into marrying him to secure permanent residence in Canada, said she had planned to go to a lawyer yesterday.

"I want a divorce. It's enough now," she said ...

Crete-Huntley said she hoped she would be able to visit South Africa in the near future ...

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3015&art_id=iol1252483929641M625

[struggle4progress]

174. Huntley's wife 'livid' with him

... Crete-Huntley is now livid after he described her in his application for asylum as "not a pleasant person".

She said she couldn't understand this statement, as she had been supporting him financially from their wedding day until recently.

"I had two jobs so that I could be able to care for him too" ...

Crete-Huntley said she will now be submitting an urgent application to the Canadian Immigration Board to see his application for asylum ...

http://www.news24.com/Content/SouthAfrica/News/1059/8ed8e14fadbe4a85b9215006bffd84c8/09-09-2009-09-18/Huntleys_wife_livid_with_him

[fujiyama]

169. While his situation there sounds terrible

this is a relatively weak case for asylum. Typically asylum seekers have to show that their life is at risk in their native country due to some sort of persecution. While crime in SA is really high, I haven't heard of the type of injustices as in Zimbabwe. I've spoken to those considering asylum from other countries in the past and they've told me that at least in the US, you need to prove systematic persecution due to religion, race, or sex, and in some cases exercising free expression - and also that your life would be endangered because of it if you returned. It doesn't sound particularly easy and as welcoming as I would hope the nation is, I'd also want some standards in place for asylum seekers. Otherwise it's just a mockery of the system.

This man sounds like a victim of crime and the neglect of the government in SA with regards to the epidemic. His situation is shared by millions in his native country - white, black, and Asian. It basically sounds like he wanted to be with family in Canada and this was quicker than waiting for his sister to sponsor him.

[Liberal_in_LA]

172. +1

[struggle4progress]

171. Patric Tariq Mellet re: Brandon Huntley

... one of Brandon’s ‘white’ cousins cohabits with an African woman in Khayelitsha and has been a worker in black townships for ages and has not been living in fear of his life. Over fifty percent of Brandon’s relatives are people of colour in Cape Town and don’t share his race attitudes or so-called ‘fear problem’. At least one of his direct family, his father’s brother, is married across the colour line. Brandon Huntley is a fourth generation descendent of William Huntley and Mary Anne Haddon whose children married black and white South Africans ... http://cape-slavery-heritage.iblog.co.za/2009/09/06/the-brandon-huntley-saga/

<Patric Tariq Mellet autobiographical sketch:>
... Both my grandmothers were of mixed or coloured ancestry including French, Dutch, English and Irish Settlers, and slaves from Bengal, Sri Lanka and Madagascar, as well as indigenous Khoi. I trace my roots to the early 1700s when two slave sisters, born of slave and Khoi parents, married two French brothers. I call this an African Creole (Orlams) ancestry. My grandfathers were English and Afrikaans respectively. In my veins flows indigenous African blood, Indian blood, Malagasy blood and European blood. My cultural make-up has streams from all of these tributaries and has been strongly influenced by the many years that I spent being raised as one of OR Tambo’s boys. My being does not know any other way than that which leads me to say, “I am an African” ... http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/people/bios/mellet,pt.htm

[Walrus21101]

176. "White"? refugee

So Brandon Huntley isn't white? Doesn't that rather blow the whole race issue out of the water? Of course, I don't really know all the facts of this particular case, along with most others who are shooting off at the mouth.

The Canadian Government claims to be determined to overturn an 'impartial' tribunal decision, where race is apparently central to the whole case. Do they trust the ANC regime more than they do the decision making abilities of their own appointed bodies? What worries me is that in rushing to denounce their own refugee handling process, they have in effect rubber-stamped anything the ANC regime does, and in so doing have put them above the law. Do you think they regard Mr Zuma as exactly the same as Dr Mandela? Perhaps the intent and actions of a government can change (as in, this one is good, that one is evil, but they are both black, hm.. doesn't fit in with our ideology, I'm afraid)? Of course, I don't really know all the facts of this particular case, along with most others who are shooting their mouths off, but I feel that setting a precedent where rejecting all applicants based on their race is not only illegally discriminatory, but flies in the face of all our attempts to safeguard the rights of refugees everywhere. It should be applied without regard to race, surely? Then why should race be focused on as it has been? No one has waxed hysterical over Sudanese, etc, refugee cases. If this case is 'sub judice', then why has it received such hysterical attention. I mean 143 South African academics signing a petition! Amazing! I find the complicity of white South Africans in this campaign rather surprising, remarkable, even, and calling for explanation. Where have you heard the like? It is ridiculous, frankly. Apparently the victim has gone into hiding. Do you think there will be lynch mobs organized next?

It's odd that no-one has really contradicted the facts of the case. Whites ARE discriminated against because of their race, but in South Africa it seems it's a 'good thing'. Racially motivated crime DOES happen; the government there admits that, as do most rational people. Racial slurs carved into the bodies of murdered people is a pretty good give-away. But even though it is absurdly high in a rural population, it can apparently be compared to an overall rate which takes into account the densest inner city areas. So clearly any white from South Africa actually CAN claim they are discriminated against. All this obfuscation about how usually fudged statistics stack up can't hide the obvious facts, along with the fact that a million or so 'white people' have emigrated from the country. Apparently it is 'right-wing' to show any concern for indiscriminate murder of a segment of the South African population, such as those 'racist thugs' the white farmers (it is usually unwritten that they are Afrikaans-speaking). The level of hate-speech directed at 'whites' by such as the ANCYL and other official government mouthpieces, is also completely ignored. But it also seems many on this forum see nothing wrong with that hate-speech, so long as it supports the supposed end of a racially harmonious South Africa.

Where have we heard of such things happening before, a small easily identified minority demonised and blamed for all the ills of society, forced into ghettoes, and exile, denied employment, made the victims of unreported crime, which is actually encouraged by the 'official position' ('kill the farmer, kill the whites, one settler one bullet, etc). Luckily they don't have to stitch coloured stars on people, the colour is genetically provided. Why do we have Holocaust Memorials if we can forget such lessons so easily?

[Blue_Tires]

178. oh come the hell on...

He's overplaying his hand and its easy to see...It's not just the random 'discrimination' he's complaining about, he's making it sound like he can't walk out of his door without getting shot at because of his race -- which by all accounts (and I've asked a couple of white South Africans) is a pure fairy tale...

Like I said upthread; more power to him...He wanted to get into the country, found a loophole to exploit, and it worked...Good on him -- I'm trying to emigrate to Canada myself and I only wish it would be that easy...Just admit he got in on a bullshit reason and the Immigration Board is setting a dangerous precedent for pretty much opening the door for every white african to come over....

[FarrenH]

181. I live in SA

I am white. Huntley is taking a mountain of crap. The only FACTS in the case are the hearsay testimonies of two people. Both of which are directly contradicted by both unofficial and official crime statistics. The simple truth is, there are NO facts in this case, only two people's racially paranoid statements, which can be shown to be at variance with information that is both accurate and widely available.

[cdb237]

186. South Africa and Refugee Case

The Brandon Huntley case may or may not be farce but how do
you know? You have to prove that he is a liar and you cannot
do that.He has been so vilified and so much hatred directed
towards him that he has been found guilty before his case has
even been reviewed.

Are you saying that his claim to have been attacked and
stabbed on a number of occasions are nothing but a lie? Do you
perhaps believe that his scars are the result of self
inflicted wounds or the result or fights with other uneducated
whites males of the same class?

The same goes for the witness in the case, his lawyer's
sister, Laura Kaplan. She claimed that she had had similar
experiences to that of Huntley and had recently gone to Canada
as a result of violent attacks against her and the torturing
of her husband. Are you saying that she is also a liar and if
so can you prove it?

Are they both suffering from racial paranoia to such an extent
that these attacks are nothing but delusions or
hallucinations?

His lawyer states that he has been inundated to an
unbelievable degree with letters and messages of support from
white South Africans from South Africa and from all over the
world claiming similar experiences to Huntley.

I am also a white South African and have lived here all my
life. I have also been attacked four times, twice outside my
flat on Durban's North Beach, since the advent of ANC rule. I
wasnt stabbed but could have been as on each occasion knives
were used in the attacks, one knife held against my heart.All
the attacks were carried out, as is the case in ninety nine
percent of cases, by Black males.Whether there were any racial
feelings directed against me during these attacks I cannot
say.Only the attackers would have known the answer to that
question, and noone else, as they were not speaking
English.Have I also become racially paranoid? If so can I be
blamed for being on my guard and feeling slightly nervous
whenever I walk outside my building or down a lonely road when
I see a group of young Blacks walking towards me and feel
relieved once they have passed.
I also never bothered to report these attacks to the police as
such crimes are regarded as petty and are not taken seriously
by the police.

People are often attacked and stabbed in our area and many of
the Whites that used to live in our building have since left
the country citing similar experiences to that of
Huntley.Perhaps they have also become racially paranoid as
none of their attackers were Whites or members of other
minority groups.

Since the advent of ANC rule fifteen years ago over a million
White South Africans have left their country which is equal to
between twenty and twenty five percent of the Whites in South
Africa.This must surely represent an international record for
the number of any population group leaving their country in
such a short space of time during peacetime.Is there any other
country which has lost as many of its population within a
similar timeframe? The outflow is continuing, although it has
tapered off slightly as a result of the worldwide recession
but will no doubt recommence once the recession is over.In
most cases similar reasons as those given by Huntley are given
for leaving.The fear and insecurity of having to live with
endless and ever worsening black crime( which is not going to
end )and the desire to provide themselves and their children
with a better and more secure future which is also devoid of
discrimination ( for whatever reason, justified or not )in
employment and career opportunities.

A large number of those that have left or are leaving are also
people who have suffered horrific experiences at the hands of
violent Black criminals, have been left traumatised and
fearful and feel they can no longer live in South Africa.

You appear to be very dismissive of Whites who have suffered
such experiences of terror and are content to simply label
them as "paranoid racists".Is this not a case of
extreme arrogance on your part and totally lacking any form of
empathy.You describe most such Whites as socially unreformed
and in some way mentally deficient, thereby rendering them
incapable of either correctly assessing their own positions or
of assessing conditions in the country.What gives anyone the
right to decide how White South Africans should believe, feel
and think? You seem to have given youself the right to judge
and divide White South Africans into two groups, those that
pass your test of correctness and those that dont.A test based
on your own beliefs,experiences, perceptions and predjudices.

In view of South Africa's long violent past how is it possible
for anyone to truly and honestly believe that no degree of
animosity, resentment and hatred towards Whites exists amongst
large numbers of the Black population?Surely to believe so is
unrealistic and naive in the extreme.It is simply a matter of
common sense.We all know that race pervades every aspect of
life in this country with the possible exception of the
weather.There is no issue that is not tinged by race.Is there
any debate in parliament between the ANC and the mostly White
opposition where racial feelings are not present, even if not
necessarily expressed. Racial remarks are often made by Black
politicians, particualarly of late,and their use of the race
card is well known when challenged on any issue.Criticism by
any white person is always opposed by a show of black
solidarity whether the criticism is valid or not.Even black
judges are not immune. Judge Motata's racial tirade against
the white person who laid a charge against him for crashing
into the wall of his house whilst in a drunken state.Judge
Hlope calling a fellow White judge "a piece of white shit
who should go back to Holland".Malema calling Helen Zille
a racist little White girl who must do as she's told etc.Can
you imagine any White person making such remarks against
Blacks in public? Jimmy Manyi and his tirades and threats
against White owned businesses whenever a White CEO is
appointed. A former Minister of Security announcing in
parliament that if Whites are unhappy about crime in South
Africa they should simply leave the country (hardly a show of
willingness on the part of the government to protect White
South Africans)

Are these incidents and many others like them not expressions
of animosity, resentment and hatred largely as a result of
South Africa's historical legacy?

With ongoing anti-White rhetoric by Blacks in prominent
positions it is obvious that such sentiments also exist in the
Black population to a greater or lesser extent and would
naturally find expression in their most extreme form and be an
ingredient in much if not most of the violent interracial
crime perpetrated against the White population.

You mention the myth of the so-called "Farmer
Holocaust" and that being a White farmer in South Africa
is the most peaceful of occupations.

There are approximately 40000 White farmers in the country and
accordng to figures up to June this year 3086 of them have
been murdered since the ANC came to power in 1994.In other
words about seven and a half percent of their number have been
murdered over a period of fifteen years, often in the most
horrific manner including being humiliated and tortured to
death. In a number of cases the victims' body parts were
harvested from them while they were still alive in order to be
sold to witchdoctors for "muti"
Is there any other group that has lost seven and a half
percent of its members to murder since the ANC came to power?

Dr Gregory Stanton who was responsible for establishing the
Genocide Watchlist and who is a renowned expert on the subject
having studied genocides all over the world, came to the
conclusion after studying the nature and extent of the
brutality, humiliation and violence as well as the treatment
of the corpses in many of the farm murders that these murders
were no ordinary crimes but were in his words "hate
crimes'.His conclusion was that White farmers in South Africa
are probably at level four or five in the genocidal
process.(see below)

http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/SAfrica20020
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S71PbichSw
www.youtube.com/watch?v=X38CW61-em4
www.youtube.com/watch?v=B70d2Z9yago

Its strange that those engaged in one of the most peaceful
occupations in South Africa should find themselves placed on
the Genocide Watchlist.Or is it perhaps that Dr Stanton is
just another paranoid White racist incapable of making a valid
assessment?

As far as the petition signed by the academics of the
University of Cape Town in the Brandon Huntley affair is
concerned it seems they may have been in such haste to prove
how politically correct they were that they may have not made
an indepth study of the crime situation in the country.After
all what else could they have been expected to do?There is
nothing more politically incorrect in South Africa than to
ever mention the unmentionable, that there could EVER be the
possibility of an element of racial hatred in the violent
interracial crime commited against the White population.One
could never admit to nor even hint at such a possibility and
remain in polite company.
An article by James Myburgh in Potitics Web mentions a number
of surveys that tend to show that Whites are
disproportionately affected by certain violent crimes commited
by Black criminals.(see below)

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/poilticsweb/en/page71619?
oid=143475&sn=Detail

It would seem strange that with every aspect of life in the
country being tinged by race that criminal activity is in some
way exempt,that violent interracial crime suffered by Whites
is somehow entirely neutral, colourblind, with no racial
overtones. This is truly absurd and everyone knows it,
including and especially the academics of Cape Town.

Regarding the question of affirmative action it may be true
that there are young White males who manage to find employment
in certain jobs but it is also true that many of them battle
to do so and that this is largely and entirely the result of
them being White. Can you really honestly state that no White
person's application for employment has ever been rejected
simply because he or she is white and that they are all just
stories of self pity? Some perhaps but not all. The mere fact
that there is an affirmative action policy means this has to
happen and quite often, and even more so in the public sector
and parastatals.I work for a parastatal in Durban where the
average age of the White employees is over fifty.There are no
Whites of school leaving age , certainly no young White males
to be seen or even White females for that matter. As the White
employees reach retirement age they are replaced by Blacks and
so White workers are just phased out of the public service. In
the unlikely event of a young white male ever securing a job
his chances of any promotion would be virtually nonexistent as
Blacks are always given first preference as promotion for
Whites is frozen.(You seem to have great faith in the
so-called "integrity and honesty" of the ANC in that
they would always carry out their affirmative action policies
in a fair manner.This is obviously not the case.After all why
should they and who is going to make sure that they
do.Certainly no opposition politician standing up for
Whites.)It is only obvious that in order to transform the
workforce in the economy to reflect the demographics of the
different population groups in keeping with ANC ideology, it
is inevitable that a large portion of the White workforce
would have to be replaced by Blacks in order to meet the
targets within the government's timeframe.This could only be
obviated if the economy grew so fast and jobs created at such
a rapid rate that Blacks would be absorbed into the workforce
in sufficient numbers that the demographic targets could be
reached without the actual replacement of white workers.White
unemployment may not be as high as the other population groups
but it should be remembered that nearly a quarter of the White
population (mostly young and of working age)has left the
country over the last fifteen years.Had they not emigrated
would the unemployment rate amongst the White population have
been at the level that it is in view of affirmative action,
the government's transformation targets and timeframes as well
as pressures on the government from its Black constituency for
ever faster transformation.(Can you just imagine Jimmy Manyi's
reaction if all those White managers that have emigrated were
still being apointed to positions in companies in South
Africa?)

It seems strange that so much fuss has been made over the
Huntley affair as apparently six hundred other White South
Africans have been granted asylum in other countries since
1994.There is a case currently before a court in Ireland where
a twenty two year old White South African woman is requesting
asylum claiming that she would be in danger if forced to
return to South Africa and would face what she calls
"criminal racial discrimination".Ireland has
apparently already granted asylum to forty six other White
South Africans since 1994.Why has there been no fuss about all
these other cases? Are they all genuine?Are all the cases of
the thousands of Black African refugees entering Europe each
year all genuine? Are none of them perhaps just economic
refugees seeking a better life and how well is each case
checked?

Brandon Huntley commited the greatest sin.He was politically
incorrect. He mentioned the unmentionable.He spoke about a
certain aspect of South African reality that is not meant to
be spoken about and that has never been raised in public
before.A reality that everyone knows exits but doesnt want to
know. The reality of racial resentment as an important
ingredient in much of, if not most of the interracial violent
crime commited against White South Africans, and he being a
victim of it. Hence the hysterical degree of hatred directed
against him.

There may well be many good things happening in South Africa
at the same time as the bad and there is much interracial
harmony.However it shouldnt be forgotten that there is also a
very dark side,a vast potential for things to go wrong and
very wrong and all those elements are present all the time in
varying degrees.Things can change and turn ugly overnight.This
has often occurred all over Africa so many times and the fact
that the ANC is older than ZANU PF for example, or that it has
a history of non-racialism is really irrelevant and offers no
guarantees in the long term. Things can and do change all the
time.After all why does the ANC allow many of their
politicians to engage in anti- White rhetoric or hate speech
and sometimes also hate speech directed at other minirities as
well and never reprimand them, let alone expel them from the
party.Its obviously because so many of them harbour similar
sentiments.

It should be remembered that the White population is now less
than ten percent of the total and their numbers are falling
all the time.In times of threat they are incapable of
defending themselves,the first time in four hundred years that
they have found themselves in such a position.The reality is
that we live on a continent that has proven itself to be very
volatile, brutal and unstable and very unpredictable and South
Africa remains an extremely violent country where violent
crime is not only far more brutal than elsewhere in the world
but also far more enormous in terms of scale.And this is
certainly not going to end soon,most probably never.So living
here means living with it for the rest of your life. To be
driven by idealism is a good thing but to be guided by wishful
thinking,or to live in a state of denial of these realities is
certainly not wise. Who knows but it may well be the case that
those "racially paranoid" people who left the
country or are leaving, and for whom you have such
contempt,will in thirty years time look back and be very
grateful that they did and that their assessment of the
country at the time of leaving would in fact have proven to
have been correct and that your assessments may actually have
been proven to have been wrong.So,therefore I wouldnt be so
sure of my opinions if I were you and be in a little haste in
condemning others.The "paranoid racists" may just
turn out to be right and you wrong.Have you ever considered
that possibility?
 
And no, this is not a case of paranoia. This is a case of
simple common sense, taking into account the realities that
exist in South Africa and which also exist to a very large
extent throughout the continent.

[FarrenH]

183. Walrus, I implore you to read my reply to someone else here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4042328#4069467

[Walrus21101]

184. 'White' refugee

Thank you for your redirect; I had overlooked it earlier, in fact. This thread is crazy. Your comments are encouraging. My perceptions may well be distorted, firstly by the length of time I have been out of SA, and also by my own sense of dislocation. Personally, I feel great unease with the case. Your clear sincerity is very persuasive, and reassuring at the same time.

Look, I care about South Africa and I would hate anything to threaten the considerable advances made toward a just society. What disturbs me is that there are few checks on the power of the SA Government, simply because of its overwhelming majority. There have recently been 'political developments' (a new and unknown president, for one), and the climate seems to have changed somewhat, judging by the speeches made at rallies, for one thing.

I am not making any statements about the Huntley case, other than being surprised at the level of response, seemingly out of all proportion. My other statements are merely cautionary, that such heightened passions have led to excesses in the past that we should remember and guard against. My concern is actually for people like you, who stay on and shape that society against all odds. You have my greatest admiration for your commitment and courage. It would be all to easy to leave, I am sure. But if it came to it, and there is no alternative to leaving, I would not want any doors closed to you either, simply because of your race.