Sebelius: Obama OK with insurance co-ops

[boston bean]

Source: SFGate

President Barack Obama's health secretary is suggesting the White House is ready to accept nonprofit insurance cooperatives instead of a government-run public option in a health overhaul plan.

Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius says Obama still believes there should be choice and competition" in the health insurance market — but that a public option is "not the essential element."

Obama has been pressing for the government to run a health insurance organization to help cover the nation's nearly 50 million uninsured. But he had not seen a not-for-profit co-op as sufficient to offer consumers choice and competition that would bring down the costs of private insurance.

Sebelius spoke on CNN's "State of the Union."


Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/0...

[mystieus]

1. I guess its true.. Obama already made a deal and all this theater is just for show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRK_Xw1KG9U

[global1]

5. So Is The Focus Now Only On Passing Any Kind Of Bill That They Can.....

call 'health reform' and declare a win?

[No Elephants]

16. Why did you use the word "now?"

[global1]

62. Because With Each Passing Day During This (As CNN Puts It) Make or Break Month.......

I keep hearing about the Dems retreating and giving up any ground that they may have had.

From 'single payer' to 'strong public option' to 'well - how about a weak public option - but it will still be a public option so we can call it as such' to 'co-ops'.

We've gone from meaningful health care reform to health insurance reform.

We got a lot of the groups that previously were against this - as now being 'on-board' (big Pharma, AARP, AMA, Federation of Hospitals).

The only reason I can see them getting behind this is that they don't see 'health reform' as a threat anymore - because the Dems caved on everything.

Bottom line when Gregory asked Coburn if the Repugs will now support this bill - now that it seemed that all the compromises were going their way. He couldn't get a commitment out of him.

We all know whats going to happen. We will have bent over and compromised to get bipartisan support - and the Repugs will vote against it anyway. Then when it fails - because they've weakened it to ineffectiveness and failure - they will blame the Dems.

How come all of us here at DU see this and President Obama doesn't?

[Frank Booth]

73. Obama sees it.

He's just either: (1) too weak-willed to do anything about it, or (2) the best con-man to come around in a long time.

I'm starting to lean to option #2.

[Iowa]

160. He a con and a corporate tool, that's pretty clear now.

I will definitely not be voting for this useless excuse for a president next time around. Obama is a corporate tool. He's nothing more than a walking, talking Hallmark Card designed to create warm-fuzzies so we the people will swallow the corporate agenda.

[Peregrine Took]

188. There's the Democratic party, the rethug party and the corporatist party.

Clinton was the first and Obama is the second.

I always had my doubts about him but I got caught up in the hype. Won't happen the second time.

[Grinchie]

315. What choice did we have? McCain was a non starter, and Hillary symbolized the DLC

Yet, we were given a less repulsive candidate, out of the blue, who eventually demosstrated that he was the one dollar bet on "Any Craps" by the DLC in case Hillary proved unworthy. Well, the one dollar bet on "Any Craps" at the crap table pays 30:1, so the DLC was able to stay in the game and take the prize.

Isn't it obvious? It's a god damned DLC Reunion from the Clinton years, with Hillary right up there, able to drag Bill all over the world right alongside her, making Corporate deals wherever they can find them, defending NAFTA and free trade, and furthering the destruction of our Economy.

The truly infiriating aspect of this Shell Game is the blantancy and speed at which they got to work throwing Progressive Ideals under the bus, complete with crafted propaganda of Bipartisanship, and "Looking Ahead" to defuse the growing concern by the base.

At this point, there is no hiding it. It's out in the open, and the DLC doesn't realize the magnitude of their stupid, greedy takeover. True democrats are enraged, and the Conservative base is concerned, but is following the likes of Glenn Beck, without clear puropse, simply because they know that this Administration now controls the same machine that Bush created.

The American Corporate Party is here. We are seeing it. We have to stop feeding this Corporation and starve it to death.

[hay rick]

337. You will definitely be voting for him again.

The Republicans will put up somebody like Huckabee and you will have a clear choice between not-very-good and terrible. Reminds me of the much heralded "free choice" we currently enjoy among "competing" insurance plans: bad, bad, worse, worse, and worse yet... but WE GET TO CHOOSE.

[dysfunctional press]

359. i won't. i don't care who the repugs run.

i simply won't be voting any more for anyone.

i'm done.

[bjobotts]

385. Yes, Let's put Bush back in office.REpukes have no plans or answers

[bjobotts]

386. One man cannot change it all.Can't fix republican disaster fast enough

[bjobotts]

387. Repubs offer nothing.They are still the Bush disaster.There would be no reform even on the table

[bjobotts]

388. This is not the "all or nothing" moment.Must keep pushing these dems as only chance

[dysfunctional press]

407. he's already served his two terms...but there's always jeb.

at my age, and the way my health is, i'll be lucky to get another 20 years- and i wouldn't mind being around for the revolution. it's inevitable at this point.

[Divine Discontent]

361. no, they probably will not be voting for Obama - the problem, you see, is when you keep getting

assaulted, after a while you don't trust anyone - there's no point in voting for a pretty lousy guy and a lousy guy...


I am leaning towards President Obama as a corporate hack, which infuriates me as a progressive individual that advocates for many things that are not legal in this country.

There are some cheerleaders on this site who yell at the rest of us and say it's our fault that health care (and the many other failings by the Dems & the WH) is in trouble, because we're not doing enough ---


we got them a 60 seat filibuster proof majority that they somehow can't hold together, and the president we elected in a landslide to replace a different party seems to be a corporate hack that just talks super intelligently and yet nothing gets done.

I'm still supportive of him, but if the health care goes the way of the other failings I've seen from them, and if you're paying attention you should know what they are, then I will switch to be an independent and vote non-traditional.

Obama's not going to win with 80% of the minority support who will support him just because he's similar looking to them (just like if I ran, I would get most Gays voting for me even if I had borderline Democratic views, it's just how people are, they don't look at policies and promises kept or broken)

KEEPING FINGERS CROSSED OBAMA STANDS UP STRONGLY FOR THE PUBLIC OPTION (should have been single-payer, but this country is pretty weak willed politically even when we give the DEMS a huge majority!)

[Iowa]

419. Like hell I will!

I'm through playing that game and I won't be conned again; Obama was the last straw for me. If that contributes to a Republican winning by default in 2012, I really don't give a shit anymore, because that's essentially what we have now anyway. Obama has shown himself to be a liar, a con, and a corporatist. And with the exception of Dennis Kucinnich (the man I supported at the Iowa caucuses) the other 2008 candidates were of similarly low caliber. Self-serving career-politician weasels without conscience. Our Democratically controlled Congress is no better.

[Butch350]

340. It does't matter who you vote for.

We, Us, the american population are responsible for the mess this country is in, and we are the ones
who have empowered the corporate domination of our society. Don't blame it on the Dems or the Repubs,
cause when you do it's called, denial.

We've all been drinking the corporate kool-aide for a long, long time.

Just go get yourselves a bag of doritos and a mountain dew and cath the latest episode of "24" or "CSI fucked".

[bjobotts]

391. Vote against the money party???hahahahahahaha.Last chance dems or corporatism

[Iowa]

417. Ludicrous...

"We, Us, the american population are responsible for the mess this country is in, and we are the ones
who have empowered the corporate domination of our society. Don't blame it on the Dems or the Repubs,
cause when you do it's called, denial. "

Well you may have bought into the corporate domination of our society, but I never did, and I'd guess most of the people posting here didn't either. It's is absolutely ludicrous to blame an entire population for the actions of lying, conscienceless, sociopathic, sell-out politicians; it's precisely that kind of thinking that enables the corporatists. We should be mad as hell - not cowering in a corner blaming ourselves.

[creeksneakers2]

377. He always was naive

I think he really believes that stuff about everybody working together.

[The Doctor.]

412. Will has little to do with it.

It's very sad that he's found out just how little power his office holds against the corporate interests.

[No Elephants]

82. I meant that, IMO, it's been apparent for a while that Obama

was going to sign whatever got to his desk.

If there is one thing that will definitely jeopardize his change of re-election, it's not being about to get ANY change at all passed, even though he has the House and 60 Senators. So, he will sign whatever gets to his desk and declare victory. I don't think that is a recent change.

[Politicub]

139. Unsuccessful healthcare reform will hurt his chances for re-election

far more than passing some bill that is a sop to the insurance companies just to sign some kind of healthcare legislation. Because we all know that nibbling around the edges won't fix a thing. And if Obama's HC reform is seen as a failure, he will have to fight against the perception. Better to make a hail mary pass now than just bend over backward to compromise.

It's sad that business has our entire country on a leash - but this is reiterated over and over.

The public option will be competition. A ridiculous for profit co-op helps in what way? The profit motive is still there. The public option would have no reason to make a profit, thus it would be able to reduce the cost overall.

[veritasvg]

181. Uh...

...he doesn't have any chance for reelection.

[No Elephants]

219. I think that not passing any bill at all, with an overwhelmingly Democratic Congress

will make him seem totally ineffectual and hurt his chances of re-elecion even more. He's hurt either way, though.

[northernlights]

231. "nonprofit insurance cooperatives"

Re-read the OP. It says *NONprofit insurance cooperatives."

This is not necessarily a bad thing. I remember reading a couple years ago about a group of doctors in Massachusetts that got fed up with the insurance indusstry, and set up a coop that was very reasonable. They took their patients right with them. They were able to practice medicine the way they wanted to and their patients saved a lot of money for far better care.

The insurance companies went ballistic and sued -- claimed they were operating an insurance company without a license. I think the insurance companies won, but could be remembering wrong.

[No Elephants]

268. Regardless of what the OP says, the correct term is not for profit. And it probably doesn't

mean what you think it means.

A not for profit corporation is not prevented from making a profit or from paying huge salaries or even from wasting huge sums of money. I'd bet my bottom dollar that Trinity Broadcasting Network, Joel Osteen's ministry, Fred Price's ministry and Benny Hinn's ministry are all not for profits.

Now, the co-ops may still turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread, but that will have nothing to do with whether they are organized as not for profit corporations.

I think the doctors you are talking about were collecting an annual fee up front, one you had to pay whether you visited them that year or not or died the day after you paid them or not. That is what may have made the insurers sue them for operating as an unregulated insurance company. And basically, that is indeed what they were doing.

Getting the moey up front enabled them to do away with billing staff, as well as with staff that dealt with insurance companies, Medicare and Medicaid and 5herefore to operate in smaller quarters and with less equipment, supplies, etc.. It also got them the money faster than any of those entities. That is not going to be the case if government is inovlved in any way.

[SharonAnn]

404. Weren't those Blue Cross and Blue Shield? Then they went "for profit".

[defendandprotect]

187. Of course, people keep hoping, but it is clear that he is no FDR re health care . . .

and, if he had stood up against the corporations many Democrats would have followed him --

Had they called Democrats out to demonstrate -- there would have been overwhelming support!!!

All we've seen is a right-wing show with no reply from Dems --

Disgusting!!!

[No Elephants]

257. He's no FDR, period.

[New Dawn]

279. Bingo.

[Enthusiast]

356. But you must remember

how health care reform has been characterized by the media. The media has suggested that the town hall meeting protests are real grass roots and spontaneous. The media will ignore a dozen reasonable positions on health care reform yet promote one idiot's perspective on death panels. Not that this excuses President Obama's inaction. It DOES NOT!

[TheEuclideanOne]

198. Yeah, and watch his poll number drop.

This is such a WTF Moment. In fact, this will be the WTF? moment of his campaign if he allows this to happen. Surely the administration must have a feel for how people will react to this. Look at how many replies there are to this thread, and so quickly. They can't be this stupid..............can they? They must know that not just "any" bill will matter, it has to be one that brings about change. They really have to know this.

[paulk]

87. why not?

they were pretty successful at redefining "change" and "hope". Now they're going to redefine "reform".

[Laelth]

15. Depressing.

Our leaders have sold us out. The co-op plan is doomed to fail and will not create sufficient competition to drive down insurance prices.

We need a general strike. That's how they get things done in France. They still have them occasionally in Canada. We have to "make" our leaders do the right thing. Obama wasn't kidding when he said "we are" the change. We have to make him give us single payer.

http://sonic.net/~figgins/generalstrike

The government is, "and remains, in essence a committee for organising the affairs of the ruling class." Phil Mitchinson - May 2001



-Laelth

[No Elephants]

18. So, when Obama said "we are" the change," he was relying on America's long tradition of taking to

the streets like the French do and like America hasn't done in over a century, if ever?

See, I thought that was a cop out, like when pyschiatrists used to say it was their patients's fault if their patients did not get well. Guess I was wrong.

What's this "make him" give us single payer, though? According to him, everything is up to Congress or the people. He has no responsibility for anything.

What happened to Presidents who said "The Buck Stops Here" and acted accordingly?

That said, please see Reply 20 as I also believe that the buck stops here for each and every one of us. Or, as Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

[tocqueville]

108. when do Americans REALLY take to the streets ?

once in a decade at best and in numbers that in percentage would be dismissed in France. When we have 2 millions, you should have 10. During the Bush presidency there was maybe 1 million (?) in Washington and Bush said "cool, it's what makes America great"...

If the current crisis had happened in France (foreclosures, unemployment, bonuses etc...) at the same scale than in the US (there were no foreclosures here and people on the street, homeless) the reaction hasn't been pitchforks but heads on pikes.

non_parlamentiary protest (demonstrations, strikes etc...) was effectively killed by corporate thugs and mafia infiltration in the beginning of last century.

The only exception has been the Vietnam generation. But you need YOUNG people to clash and OLDER to organize, canalize and avoid mistakes. The young are absent even if they are the ones that are going to pay the deficit of their fathers. Except of course if you close American Idol, there will be rioting.

[No Elephants]

110. Please don't hijack this thread. It's not about France. Thanks.

[tocqueville]

118. I didn't start to relate

comparisons were made by others and by you. I just stated that they are not relevant but whisful thinking. I rest my case.

[No Elephants]

146. If you thought I was engaging in wishful thinking, then you totally misunderstood my post. If you

thought my post was about France, and not about Obama's honesty, then you totally misunderstood my post.

And you have no case. However, I will not detail why because as I already posted, THIS IS NOT ABOUT FRANCE.

[Lorien]

255. Why are you being so rude?

He has a case. He made excellent points. Please don't behave like the "ugly American" stereotype.

[No Elephants]

310. Do you feel he needs a referee?

If so, that's way more insulting than anything I posted to him. If not, why do you keep interposing?

Funny you should mention The Ugly American. That stereotype--and you correct that it is a stereotype-- originated with upper class Americans who traveled abroad when only the rich and ambassadors and the like could really afford to so so and and acted in other countries as though America and Americans were better than those other countries and their inhabitants.

Based on that, I would be a stereotypical ugly American if I went to France (or perhaps, say, to a French message board) and bashed France or the French claimed that America and Americans were superior to the French. I would never do anything remotely like that. Nor am I posting anything remotely like that here.

On the other hand, I don't find that "ugly" behavior objectionable only when Americans do it to others. In my eyes, it is no less "ugly" when it is being done to Americans by folks from other countries than it is when it is being done by Americans. In other words, I did not engage in that particular kind of sterotypical behavior, nor do I have a double standard about it.

[Joe Bacon]

121. That's right it's not about France.

It's about America, the most selfish nation on earth.

The nation that bullshits endlessly about Jesus but follows Ayn Rand.

The nation whose first commandment is "Get Yours and Fuck Everyone Else".

The nation that worships people who get to the top by lying, stealing and backstabbing.

The nation that has seen the rise of Idiotcracy where millions vote for the next American Idol while they ignore the American Idles who are unemployed, disabled, destitute and cast out.

The nation that bullshits about Democracy but fails to practice it at home.

The nation who bullshits about freedom yet opens the door for corporate tyranny.

The nation that roots for Freddy and Freida Fetus as long as they are in the womb, but once they leave it, looks the other way when Freddy or Freida are molested, malnourished, miseducated, and thrown away.

The nation that says it's YOUR fault if you get sick or disabled.

The nation that craves materialism, that believes whomever dies with the most toys wins.

The nation that craves anything that celebrities do, but ignores the needs of the many who just get by.

The nation addicted to listening to junkies like Rush, dry drunks like Beck and convicted felons like Liddy on their radios.

The nation brainwashed by 19th Century Fox to believe that Freedom is Slavery, War is Peace and Ignorance is Stregnth.

The nation that bullshits about a "City on the Hill" when in reality it is nothing but an immoral sewer polluting the rest of the planet with its narcissistic garbage.

The nation that is brainwashed by TV Preachers to believe that JC and his Sonshine Band are heading back to earth in a week or 2, and when they approach, Jesus will turn on his Holy Hoover Vacuum Cleaner and suck up all his rich white Republican Christian followers and leave earth to the godless homo-loving atheistic Marx loving Democrats.

Yes, it's about America, the nation that says in God We Trust, but All Others Pay Cash, especially when you have no health insurance.

How far this nation has fallen, how far...

[pattmarty]

126. Agree with everything you posted.

[cliffordu]

128. really needs to be it's own OP. Really.

nice work.

[MissDeeds]

365. +1

Great rant, righteous anger.

[NoSheep]

I wish you weren't so right. But you are. This is a truly depressing reality.

[WriteDown]

143. Where are you posting from ?

[Joe Bacon]

172. I'm here in Los Angeles

Living from paycheck to paycheck paying off credit card bills that were triggered when I lent my parents money to pay their doctor bills. Wasn't enough so Dad borrowed on a bunch of credit cards. He kept borrowing and borrowing and when he died, Wells Fargo seized the house to finish their usurious extortion.

Once I had an IRA. Had to bust it to pay for surgery Mom needed that a fucking Screw Cross beancounter said wasn't necessary. She wasn't 65 yet.

Why put away anything for savings when the pimps who run the health insurance rackets are going to siphon it off into the CEO's pockets? Meanwhile, you see the spineless Democrats lying down and dying for their corporate masters time and time again.

Everything I was told about this country as a kid turned out to be lies.

[WriteDown]

190. You have the option of moving...

I'm debating on Costa Rica or Panama when I retire. Guatemala or Nicaragua are also strong possibilities.

[Joe Bacon]

196. Really, diabetics have options?????

I thought of moving to Canada and looking for work, but since I am diabetic, I got nowhere with that. I'm stuck here.

[WriteDown]

212. Type 1 or 2?

Type 2 runs rampant with my people, and I have quite a few family members that have it. I've managed to avoid it though, but my diet has to be super strict (have a few other reasons for that as well). I have 1 cousin who is type 1. Have you thought about France, GB, or even Germany?

[Fire1]

298. I want to live in France personally, but my son likes the

Netherlands. So, I guess, it's between the two.

[WriteDown]

301. Beautiful places...

Not quite "tropical" enough for me though.

[Grinchie]

322. Hawai is nice, but the Island Fever gets to many in about 3 years

I love it there, and I happy to be going back soon.

[No Elephants]

215. Most diabetics have options. .

[U4ikLefty]

267. Try Venezuela.

[abq e streeter]

270. Sorry to hear of all this horrible stuff that happened to you and your family.

It's just sickening, and I wish somehow you had the chance to tell your story right to the face of every Democrat in Congress ( the party that at least pretends to give a shit; the repubs don't even bother to pretend). My heart goes out to you, and I feel as powerless and increasingly hopeless that anything will EVER be done to fix this abomination as you do. BTW, I'm having a surgical procedure next month that will be a minimum of 9K out of pocket, while still paying off another hospital to the tune of 20K... I'm just fortunate that through nothing but dumb luck, these costs, while pretty painful, won't devastate me like they have you and so many others. And your final two sentences are things I've been saying too,over and over , especially the words 'spineless Democrats"....I keep wondering though if it's spinelessness ( which would imply not having the balls to stand up for something you do believe in) or whether it's more conscious and cynical collusion and they don't give a fuck about us any more than the repubs. sadly, I'm coming to believe the latter more and more...... and it hurts terribly as someone who still tries to hold on to a belief in the promise of the America I grew up believing in so passionately.

[undergroundnomore]

343. I'm also heartbroken

by your story too. Time and time we hear stories of people who are just like you and your parents and I am still hoping that Obama wil "Just say No" to the party of No. We have the Presidency. We have the Congress. We have the Senate. I can't believe that they could turn their back on the people who are dying at the hands of the "REAL DEATH SQUADS".

I provided hospice care for my mother-in-law about five years ago and now we are caring for my father in law. I'm so thankful that they had family to turn to but not everyone does.

Wake up wake up this whole astroturf movement is the steamroller that's out to kill us.

[No Elephants]

373. Sometimes the patient needs more care than any one person can provide and

you end up with two patients instead of one.


You have my great admiration for what you are doing. Just be sure to take care of yourself as well. Roslyn Carter wrote a book on that. Maybe your public library has it?

[Joe Bacon]

415. I am so sorry to hear of your troubles.

I wish there was something that I could do to help you besides sending e-mails and calling callous congressmembers.

[abq e streeter]

421. thanks for the kind words---my troubles are very minor compared to what you've been through

Like I said, I'm fortunate to be , through sheer random circumstance, where even this amount of $ is not devastating. It sucks, and pisses me off so badly I can hardly see straight, but it's money I can afford without going broke or into debt or whatever. ( I could definitely think of better ways to spend it than making some hospital and insurance executives obscenely wealthy though). And the health issues have not been life-threatening or anything ( which makes it all the more mind-boggling that even these are outrageously expensive). Sometimes I think only something like millions upon millions of people canceling their insurance and then showing up at emergency rooms in numbers that overwhelm the system will accomplish anything. Maybe if enough people just refused to pay any more insurance and medical bills, it would force the issue. Yeah, Mr. big talker here...am I willing to be one of those that takes the chance and cancels the meager half -assed insurance I already have ? Nope, not by myself ...But sometimes I think a massive organized boycott like that might hit em in the only place they seem to have ears---in their wallets.

[Fire1]

295. Not to change the subject Joe Bacon b/c I totally agree

with everything you've posted. No argument here. But I'm wondering how the bank was able to seize the house after your father's death. I didn't think 'surviving' relatives were liable for debts of the deceased.

[WriteDown]

299. Secured assets such as cars and houses..

can still be foreclosed upon after the proper timeline, but no responsibility to pay any of the debt falls on any family member.

[Fire1]

302. What???? You'll have to break that down a little more, please.

[WriteDown]

309. For instance...

If you have a car that you owe payments on and you die then someone still has to make the payments after you die or it will be repo'd. Same as a house. But no one is obligated to make the payments and no one's(family's) credit is affected.

[Fire1]

312. That's similar to my original understanding. Thanks. n/t

[Joe Bacon]

324. Dad kept refinancing

Dad had a dozen credit cards that he maxed out on. Then. Wells Fargo swept in and offered a mortgage to cover his debt. He kept borrowing and borrowing and Wells kept giving him more and more money. So when he died, Wells took the house.

[Fire1]

328. Gotcha. Thanks. n/t

[Grinchie]

320. I see that you have discovered the Fraud.

When one realizes that there are so many mechanisms that allow other people to steal an entire generation of wealth, while at the same time forcing people to gather more debt, the fraud becomes quite obvious.

I have no savings to speak of, because I know that it will be worthless in a few years. I do have property thats paid off however, and it is enough to support me and about 100 other people if push comes to shove, so the Corporations can conjure up all the monopoly money they want without affecting me anymore.

It takes a great hardship to wake up out of the dream they keep us in since childhood.

[tabatha]

148. Excellent post.

And that is what Obama is trying to fight.

And yes, there are those on the left who cannot see what he is up against - and cry foul because he is not perfect.

[No Elephants]

154. Oh, please. No one here is crying foul because he is not perfect.

[Joe Bacon]

180. He surrendered on single payer.

Now Sebelius is signaling that the wimpy public option is going to be co-opted in co-ops. And they will be formed only at the state level to be as weak as possible.

This bill is nothing more than more corporate welfare, forcing Romneycare down everyone's throats, making us buy useless high deductible policies so filled with loopholes that they will be a mere figleaf when illness strikes. Meanwhile the pimp CEO's will have 50 million new customers paying tribute, er, premiums which double the CEO salaries.

[susanr516]

That's what I fear

The only real change will be mandated health insurance coverage.

[defendandprotect]

263. Obama isn't "up against something" . . . he's part of it -- !!!

Campaign finance $$$ is PRE-BRIBERY . . .

Do you think all of these Dems and Obama don't have the common sense to know

the necessity for single payer -- and that every other nation has accomplished it??

Either we believe their dumb, or we understand they are PRE-BRIBED . . . PRE-OWNED . . .

[No Elephants]

152. This really is not the thread to debate whether America is more selfish than France or the UK or

Germany or Switzerland, etc. though I could make very good arguments why America isn't more selfish than any of those. Maybe you and the French guy can duel via pm's, though.

[Joe Bacon]

164. Selfishness is the reason we don't have universal health care

That's why my remarks must be on this thread. Remember SICKO? Mike showed us that the French actually go out and march en masse when there is injustice and they never let their guard down. Americans are too busy sitting on the couch munching their Doritos and watching Fox News or TV Preachers to get off their butts and stand up.

[No Elephants]

197. The French are more active on their own behalf perhaps. That does not mean they are less selfish.

Those are two different issues.

Besides, all of France does not "take to the streets." Some people in some cities do. We are a much larger nation with lots of rural and suburban areas. We'd have to take to the lawns. It's often their unions that organize these things. Our unions are very different. And we have had anti-war demonstrations, anti nuke demonstrations and the like in cities. They were very unselfish. Contributions from Americans (individuals) to all kinds of things all over the world are not selfish either. Food and wells in Africa. Tsunami victims of Indonesia. Many, many things.

No, saying America is the most selfish country in the world does not make it so. Nor does it do one thing to advance the cause of single payer.

BTW, there have been demonstrations in D.C. on single payer. Were you there? If not, did you donate to the organizations that were there? There can be more demonstrations in D.C., too. Do you plan to organize one? If someone else does, will you go? Have you attended a town hall? Do you intend to go to NYC to demonstrate on October 17, as I suggested in another post? Have you even been contacting Obama and your Rep and Senators once a week?

[Joe Bacon]

211. I have been working my butt off for the Public Option.

I have attended actions for single payer, Public Option and health care reform and contributed. what angers me is everything I have fought for is flushing down the tubes again.

Thanks so much for your constructive criticism.

[No Elephants]

234. I have as well and my medical insurance is great and I cannot lose it.

It angers me that single payer is going down the tubes, too. And I get apoplectic about the victim mentality, especially when people aren't really doing anything but complaining on message boards--and there are lots of those. NONE of that means That Europeans are saints, though.

BTW, I've never watched American Idol, but, like many, I probably spend too much time posting.

[defendandprotect]

264. It means they understand their individual STATE in the system depends on protecting everyone . .. !!

Not the few . . . but everyone which is what single payer would do.

[provis99]

372. Peaceful protest accomplishes nothing

They get stuff done in France because the riots are violent, not because they are peaceful. To get the politicians and rich to do anything against their selfish interests, the peasants have to scare the shit out of them.

[nolabels]

428. Violence and intimdiation is one of worst ways to get things done

But it is the way much of the world functions, go figure

[Name removed]

274. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[No Elephants]

291. Um, no. You simply the missed the point entirely, and then got rude to boot.

Some people were posting America is the worst country in the world and Americans are the worst people in the world and I am disagreeing with them on that point. That is not remotely like my trying to make this thread about another country. Keep working on those reading comprehension and etiquette skills though.

[Serial Mom]

161. Wow - you said it well... n/t

[NikolaC]

214. I Wish That I Could Rec This Post n/t

[Utah_liberal]

305. How Right you. are. I am so God Damned pissed I can't think straight.

[susanr516]

318. I wish I could rec your post nt

[Grinchie]

319. I know that was only a partial list, but Thank You nonetheless.

It's nice to see people that have obtained consciousness to see that our environment is a part of us, and affects our lives every day, whether we choose to see it or not.

[llmart]

329. Best post yet.....

I agree with all of it.

[Indenturedebtor]

341. +1 We suspended our evacuation plans after the Obama win, but I'm pulling out the folder again

If we don't see some real progressive change - some HOPE - we are gone in a flash. I'll move to any number of countries where my vote actually counts.

[veritasvg]

342. Even If...

...all that were true, what in the hell would you do about it?

It's not the United States of northern California and Massachusetts. It's not a progressive nation. It never was.

That said, there are parts of the country which haven't bought into so much of the coastal narcissism that bothers my wife and I so much. Less affluent but more middle class areas such as the better parts of Greater Cleveland and even Metro Columbus aren't too bad for raising children and getting away from the rat race. They're not liberal but they're also certainly not right wing conservative. Most Ohioans and Pennsylvanians I know want better jobs and a better, more stable future for their children.

And for the record, I'm not a toy collector. My cars are paid for and the only reason I have three computers is because I work with technology for a living...and the computers are all home built.

Relax. Nothing's changed. It's always been this way.

[Enthusiast]

357. "How far this nation has fallen, how far..."

Yup. You said it, Joe.

I guess we're just part of the "blame America first crowd" Limbaugh talks about.

[IndianaGreen]

406. K&R to your most excellent post!

[Lorien]

252. He makes good points, and you are not the moderator

enough.

[No Elephants]

275. If you're the moderator, feel free to delete my post. If you aren't the moderator, then you

must be the pot calling the kettle black.

[divideandconquer]

266. France has the world's best healthcare system

and we have one of the worst effectively and morally of advanced nations.

[Grinchie]

317. You are correct, France has real Healthcare.

Wouldn't want to dilute this thread with some things that work elsewhere, would we?

[veritasvg]

179. If You...

...want to live in France, move there. We don't do those things here.

[Joe Bacon]

184. Right, Americans just sit on their ass while they watch the tube

Or listen to the Holy Trinity of Rush, Beck and Liddy.

[veritasvg]

192. But...

...you at least theoretically had a chance to do something about it and didn't.

So, suffer.

[Joe Bacon]

200. Folks, here is an Ayn Randian who practices what she preaches!

One whose true god is Ayn Rand in all of her Objectivist glory! Thanks for proving what I wrote!

[fascisthunter]

379. looky here... a dick head

[frylock]

186. love it or leave it, eh?

don't tread on me. no pubic option.

[No Elephants]

209. I think tocqueville lives in France.

[fascisthunter]

380. we don't do dat here... burp

STFU

[defendandprotect]

199. If Obama and Dems wanted Democrats in the streets they'd call them out . . .

just as the GOP has called out their thugs -- NRA/"pro-life" murderers - and their fascist

health care rallies!

Labor unions should be calling Dems out into the srreets --

Women's groups should be calling """"""""""""""""""""""""

Obama and Democrats should be """""""""""""""""""""""""""""

They aren't, because they're pre-bribed to NOT make this happen re single payer/public option.

[Joe Bacon]

64. Won't happen

Americans are too selfish to care about others. As long as the majority has insurance that they consider adequate, nothing will change.

[No Elephants]

78. Did I say it would happen? BTW, I have fantastic health insurance at zero cost to me

and I have been active on this, contacting the White House, my rep and my Senators and donating to Health Care Now.

BTW, the founder of that org. died and her memorial service is October 17 in NYC. Maybe thousands of us should show up there!

http://www.healthcare-now.org /

Start planning NOW! (Cheaper places to stay overnight would be across the Lincoln Tunnel and the Holland Tunnel in New Jersey, though. Transportation is excellent because so many New Jerseyites commute daily to jobs in NYC.)

The only way we are going to beat the corporatists, IF AT ALL, is to get a lot more active and choosy than we have been to date.

[Grinchie]

327. You can't say this. You can't prove a negative.

If Obama calls people forth, those that still support Universal Healthcare will take to the streets, but given the concrete evidence that this is Clinton/DLC/Obama part 2, I don't think the administration is confident enough to be able to control the millions of people that would show up, and administration would be forced to actually act on it. That is just not done in the Corporate world.

I think they are quite happy watching it self destruct, given the chaotic, unorganized and uneducated response of the Congress to this matter. This is welcomed and rewarded with bonuses in the Corporate world, as nobody is actually held accountable for the Bullshit.

[Grinchie]

316. I'm with you. National Stay at home and Garden fortnight..

This needs to happen on a massive scale, and be large enough to make the impact noticeable. If the jobs are nott there when the people return from the strike, then they were just illusions of Job's and people should be able to understand that.

[Joe Bacon]

32. Huffington Post has this too!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/16/sebelius-publi...

Make no mistake about it. Obama has sold us out. He's going to force everyone into Romneycare where you buy junk policies that wont cover doodley-squat. And the beancounters will be able to deny even more care. Meanwhile, the racketeering CEO's will get to double their bloated salaries. This is just more corporate welfare.

It's time to form an American version of the Canadian New Democratic Party and take control of a couple states like California and New York and pass single payer at the state level.

[NorthCarolina]

37. In his most recent Town Hall gatherings, Obama has been calling the effort

"Health INSURANCE Reform". No mention of "Public Option", and certainly no mention of "Single Payer". These meetings are now little more than "scripted" audience participation on both sides. So much for "Taking On The Private Interests". The average American citizen has few advocates on capitol hill.

[No Elephants]

70. I have no problem with the term health insurance reform. That is what single PAYER is.

Medicaid and Medicare did not change the nation's health care system. They just made health care (Medicaid), and then health care insurance (Medicare) more affordable. It was never the intention of single payer to change health care, so "health care reform" was a misnomer from the jump.

Calling this "health care reform" It made people think, incorrectly, that they were going to have to change doctors, or that their doctors might change their treatments or meds. Or see them less often or whatever. Health care is who treats you and whether you get treated with meds only or with surgery, etc. Things like that are "health care," regardless of how health care gets paid for. Single payer would not have changed health care. Neither would public option, which is just single government payer that is not "single" but an option to have government be your insurer.

Another misconconception caused by the term "health care reform" was that we were going to change from a private health care system to socialized medicine, where the government would own and operate hospitals, hire and fire doctors, etc. That's changing our health care system and single payer has nothing to do with that, either.

None of that is true. All single payer would do would be to change from private insurers to one government insurer. Nothing else would change, except, of course, that everyone would be covered. Whether we talk single payer, public option or co-op, we are talking about changing medical insurance, not changing health care.

[Abq_Sarah]

117. You're kidding right?

This was always about fundamentally changing the way the health care business operates in this country. It was about lowering the costs and providing the best service possible to everyone. If this were supposed to be about "Insurance Reform", they would have called it that from the beginning and the legislation would have solely dealt with a complete regulatory overhaul.

Sorry, I ain't buying the spin.

[No Elephants]

167. No, I am not kidding.

FYI, for selfish reasons, insurers try to lower the cost of health care too. My insurer negotiates special rates with hospitals and doctors. My statement of benefits form always shows what the doc or hospital billed and what my insurer paid per contracts the insurer negotiates each year with providers. They pay a fraction of what the hospital or doc billed. Lowering the cost of healh care, regardless of who does it, is not reforming health care itself. It's a financial issue.

Covering everyone is great, but that has nothing to do with the nature of health care itself, either only with making health care more accessible financially. Paying for my health care is not "health care reform." Neither is making my medical insurance more affordable.

No one called Medicaid or Medicare "health care reform." Everyone understood they were about financial issues, not medical issues. What muddied the waters this time was using a misnomer at first. They have now corrected that.

Private health care, public payer. That was the deal. The deal was not for the government to decide who my doctor would be or how he or she would treat me. The deal was not socialized medicine, either.

It isn't spin and whether you "buy it" or not does not refute anything I've posted or alter the reality of the matter.

Anyway, it's semantics. They could call it a hippopotamus if they want, The real issue is the specifics of the bills. And those are not looking good.

[defendandprotect]

201. We need to push on single payer/MEDICARE FOR ALL . . .

if the corporations succeed here -- if the PRE-BRIBED DEMS succeed here in blocking

single payer -- then watch out for new attacks on SS and Medicare.

[northernlights]

246. at least he finally gets the health INSURANCE does not equal

health CARE.

[No Elephants]

297. If we all had health insurance that was both affordable (or free) and good

(meaning things like not be cancellable when we get really sick), I would prefer that to having government taking over hospitals and hiring and firing doctors and the like. IMO, a good single payer program would be best.

[jgraz]

131. We knew this when they shut out Howard Dean from the administration

If they'd had any intention of enacting real reform, Howard Dean would be in the cabinet and Rahmbo wouldn't.

[Cell Whitman]

151. You got that right, Obama didn't want Dean around to tell the truth

Obama sold the public option out long ago, this is all been a charade, a con.

[No Elephants]

157. Sebelius vs. Dean. Sebelius was needed where she was and Dean was needed in her slot.

[defendandprotect]

202. Howard Dean has stayed with his commitment to public service . . .

he's to be commended because I'm sure it ain't easy!!!

And there will be little reward for him, as we can see!!

Thanks, Howard!

[No Elephants]

323. +1

[Blue_Tires]

360. very true...

[WriteDown]

140. Yep...

I've been saying this from the beginning after my buddy with a healthcare corp told me what really was going on.

[No Elephants]

159. You first posted about that, what, a week or two ago? That's far from the beginning.

BTW, have you ever missed a thread criticizing Obama? Or, have you posted anything at all positive about him?

[WriteDown]

168. Go search..

Just because I posted it a couple of weeks ago, doesn't mean I just found out about it. Wanted to see how it played out. Don't be angry because its happening.

[No Elephants]

254. Don't need to search. I saw the first post. You search. I didn't need a friend in the

business to tell me. I got the drift when Obama started meeting with the insurance companies, hospitals and drug companies before he did anything else.

"Don't be angry because it's happening?" Of course I am angry that it is happening, but that has nothing to do with you.

You know the reason you annoy me has absolutely nothing to do with health insurance.

[WriteDown]

282. You seem....

like a very unhappy person. Life is too short for that. Try to have a little fun.

[No Elephants]

304. My views about you do not mean I am an unhappy person or that I do not have fun. Thanks for

advice though, however unnecessary it may be. I'll take it in the spirit in which I am sure it was intended.

[WriteDown]

311. Good.

[Grinchie]

330. Man, what's your problem No Elephants?

You are such a vociferous apologist, yet you are constantly haranguing people with petty B.S. It's almost like you are beginning to lose faith if what you are so viciously protecting.

If you have such great healthcare, take a vacation to a spa or something and relax.

[No Elephants]

376. Write Down knows exactly what my problem with him is.

As great as my health care is, it doesn't pay for vacations or spas. But, I am not the one who chcose to go out of my way to diss a poster who was not even talking to me. So maybe you want to check and see if your health care covers a spa.

[DaLittle Kitty]

389. Shut The F**k UP... The "KOOLAID" Has Gone SOUR!

For all the lemmings who invested in "hope" you're presently getting a rude awakening! F'ing Co-Op ! Why not w/ a former INSURANCE Commissioner as Sec of Health and Welfare! The appointemnts tell the story. Obama was either stupid, naive or... in on the plan... He's NOT stupid... Naive is unlikely and w/ the appointments of former REAGAN adm. types and Clinton types/ apparatchiks... the deed was done a long time ago now. Remember there once was a guy who said "You cannot negotiate w/ these bastards... you must DEFEAT them!

Sop here we are negotiating errrr better described as CAPITULATING!!!!!!!!!!! F IT We're DONE!

[No Elephants]

397. I'm not in the Kool Aid crowd, as anyone who read the thread should be able to discern very easily

Are your posts to total strangers who were not even addressing you always that ugly?

[mystieus]

290. Obama isn't willing to risk a second term of health care afterall

[babylonsister]

2. And yesterday Valerie Jarrett said Obama

wants the public option. I'm confused.

Q: Will prez veto bill that does not contain public option? Updated at 6:45 PM

A: Prez wants public option. He has made that clear. Competition is necessary. Doesn't want to fast forward and talk about what he will veto.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[natrat]

10. um i think the idea is they lie like a rug about what he wants and then pass a sham bill quickly

right from the junta's republican playbook--patriot act, tarp etc etc

[No Elephants]

13. Would like a bill with a public option, but will not veto a bill that does not have one.

Obama was pretty clear in Montana: Baucus's bill is the one to watch.

[Joe Bacon]

47. Baucus' bill is the one Obama will sign

More corporate welfare for the pimping CEOs while the rest of us get fucked even more.

[No Elephants]

72. Seems so.

[defendandprotect]

203. Baucus should have to recuse him -- he should be removed -- PRE-BRIBED . . .

by health care industry --

How dumb are we???

[NJCher]

216. yes--Baucus has taken 3.9 million from healthcare interests

The closest Republican was Grassley and the amount he took was far less than that.


Cher

[defendandprotect]

227. So being PRE-BRIBED made Baucus suitable to head health care reform -- !!!

again . . . how dumb are we????

[No Elephants]

326. I got an email from the organization that Dean's brother runs, saying Kerry has taken

over 8 million, far more than anyone on the list in the email, Democrat or Republican. I was stunned. I wonder if that is lifetime? Kerry's been in the Senate a long time, so maybe it's more understandable if it is a lifetime amount.

[global1]

420. Well That Explains Why Kerry Isn't Out There Backing Up Obama On A Strong Public Option.......nt

[Bluenorthwest]

17. Wow!

Jarrett danced around a yes or no question. She did not say 'he will veto a bill without a public option'. She was asked a direct question and she did not answer that question. She evaded the question.
So you read what you wanted there. No wonder you are confused!

[babylonsister]

19. Wow!

She couldn't answer definitively for the president because she's not the president!

How lame of her.

[No Elephants]

25. It is not unheard of for top people in an administration to speak with one

voice. I think being equivocal about this at this juncture is the policy.

[Bluenorthwest]

46. My point, as you know, is that you said you were confused by

what she said. And no wonder.
If a spokesperson can not speak for the President, then she should simply not speak for the President. Ms. Jarrett's personal opinion is not a sought after view for most of us, who never heard of her until Obama brought her to the fore.
She could have then stated her opinion of what he would do, what he should do, and then say 'but he will do as he wishes'.

The time for such excuses is long past. She said what she meant. She speaks for him, if she does not, her presence is of no value. If not for him, she'd not be in DC doing anything. She offered to take questions, you claim she is not allowed to answer them.
When asked a direct yes or no question, it is rude to simply not reply and if you must, then you need to state that you are not in a position to answer that question, not make up crap to avoid the answer.

[nashville_brook]

74. he'll say the co-ops give that competition (and they won't)

[Joe Bacon]

86. Co-ops have a track record of failing

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1906105,00.htm...

Early adopters of the co-op idea point to two existing, large-scale, nonprofit health-care cooperatives as models: Group Health and Health Partners, nonprofit HMOs based in Seattle and the Twin Cities, respectively. Both co-ops have solid reputations in the health-care-policy world, generally offering high-quality care at costs lower than those on the commercial market. They do this by offering both health insurance and health services — each HMO has its own network of staff physicians and free-standing hospitals and clinics. This allows Group Health and Health Partners to integrate and better control costs — a huge advantage that state-based health-insurance cooperatives would have almost no chance of replicating.

But apart from Group Health and Health Partners, the history of nonprofit HMOs is littered with failures. In the 1990s, a similarly set-up nonprofit HMO in the Washington, D.C., area called Group Health Association was forced to sell itself to Humana, a private insurance company, after its finances deteriorated to the point of insolvency. GHA, which had about 130,000 members, was plagued by falling membership rolls, strikes by staff doctors and nurses and competition from other HMOs. Before being acquired by Humana, GHA even tried to transform itself into a for-profit HMO to stop the bleeding. A partnership between two nonprofit HMOs in New York, Group Health Inc. and Health Insurance Plan of New York, is currently seeking state approval to do the same thing — turn itself into a for-profit company to raise capital.

According to Jacob Hacker, a political science professor at the University of California, Berkeley, rural health cooperatives established after the Great Depression were disbanded, in part, because they were badly managed and were opposed by the physician community, the same factors that spelled death for GHA. "The history of cooperative is that it's very hard to set these things up, and while we're trying to set them up, there's not going to be accountability and pressure ," says Hacker. "They would be weakest when they're most needed — at the outset." In addition, cooperative health policies would not be portable, meaning if you had one and moved to another state, you would need to drop coverage and enroll elsewhere. Rates could also vary dramatically, depending on regional differences in health costs and the size and makeup of co-op pools.

Assuming state-based health co-ops could offer lower premium costs by being nonprofit and creating large risk pools, an equally crucial question is when they would be created. Even with federal seed money, setting up 50 co-op boards, signing up enough members to make each co-op viable and establishing administrative systems to set premium rates and pay claims would not happen overnight. "The principle of eliminating some of the profit motive and placing it with the motive to get value out of care is a good principle," says Karen Davis, president of the Commonwealth Fund, a nonpartisan health-policy think tank. "But there are a lot of ifs, and it's not a strategy for a nation in an economic crisis when we need a solution soon."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

191. Health Partners? Oh puhleeze!

I'm "insured" with Health Partners now. Whatever their origins, they now operate just like a regular insurance company. They charge exactly the same for a comparable useless policy as Blue Cross and Medica, which is the "non-profit" arm of United Health.

My policy is so over-priced and lacking in advantages that I was considering dropping it, since the out-of-pocket is high enough to bankrupt me anyway, but if there's a mandate to buy private insurance, I will be stuck with this useless piece of garbage.

[Joe Bacon]

418. Lydia, I'm sorry you're stuck with them

I had heard other horror tales from friends about Health Partners. Thank you for backing up what the article said.

[global1]

3. So The Dems Ar e Caving Before Our Eyes On The Sunday Shows?......

They should have come out with both barrels firing today and not be making any concessions. I know that Sebelius doesn't get a chance to vote on this - but she sure is a spokesperson for the President. He takes 1 step forward in his Town Halls and the people that support him - put him back two steps.

[Joe Bacon]

35. Yes, they have sold us out.

So public option, just a weak co-op as yet another band aid that won't do shit.

Obama said he was for change. We now see that's all we'll have left in our pockets after he forces Romneycare down out throats.

[Walk away]

4. Blue Cross was a cooperative. It didn't work. Now they are killing...

people all over the country by denying coverage and charging usuary rates for even the mosy basic coverage.

[xchrom]

6. yay!!! -- change you can BELIEVE in!

[CountAllVotes]

134. yep

just love that change you can believe in alright (not!).

[high density]

7. Not the essential element?

Err... Obama talks about it in every appearance he makes on the subject. He's not spending all of this political capital to get to this point only to throw up his hands and give up on it.

His supporting team is quite weak when it comes to getting a uniform message out with the stupid talking heads.

[John Q. Citizen]

8. Bait and Switch: How the “public option” was sold

http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/07/20/bait-and-switch-how-the... /

and the Bait and Switch continues.

[Laelth]

21. Excellent article. Thanks for the link. Highly recommended. n/t

-Laelth

[waldenaut]

Yes. Thank you for posting this article. Very informative. n/t

[CountAllVotes]

133. Welcome to the Democratic Underground waldenaut!

and Welcome!!

[IndianaGreen]

81. Great article

Thanks!

Here comes another BOHICA moment!

[Joe Bacon]

89. You won't see that article reprinted in the "mainstream media"

Heck no, smacks too much of that "socialism" crap

[bbgrunt]

92. yes, that article is very instructive. thanks

[NashVegas]

106. The Public Option As Proprosed in 2001, and Later, Was Never Sold, Period

Outside of the ivory towers where all the excitement was.

The discussion had to be brought to the mainstream, with good information about what it was all about. It needed advertising buys for hour-long infomercials, billboards, radio, newspapers, etc.

Stuff like that has to be built on widespread support from people who understand what they're supporting.

This wasn't.

[No Elephants]

334. +1

IMO, in general, Republicans are much better at selling their stuff, even though their stuff stinks. Democrats did not even try to sell single payer to the public and barely tried on public option. Now, they are backpedaling like crazy, just trying to get ANYthing passed.

Supposedly, "Hillarycare" failed because it was presented to Congress as a fait accompli. Obama took almost the opposite approach and look what's happening. Maybe their hearts aren't in "Congresscare," "Obamacare" OR "Hillarycare." Maybe it's just about what the lobbies want, be they insurers, PHARMA, hospitals or the AMA.

[NashVegas]

345. "Also, Carthage, methinks, ought utterly to be destroyed"

How many times did Cato have to give that one a shout out before he got his way? (google The Punic Wars if you don't know what that's all about)

[heppcatt]

9. If you noticed in the town hall yesterday...........

Obama said that the right and the left were too focused on this small portion (public option) of the greater reform.
That right there should let anyone know that the public option might be gone.

If it is why would the rest of the reform cost 90 billion a year?
It costs money to in force regulations on health insurance companies?

[John Q. Citizen]

11. Obama wants to bribe the health insurance companies to do the right thing.

He want to give them a trillion dollars a decade.

Bribing criminal scumbags is what he calls reform.

[Rubble]

136. call this what it is, and was planned all along- Fascism (Both Dems and Repubs)

capitalism is when all profits (minus taxes) go to private hands, and all losses are absorbed by private pockets

socialism is when both profits and losses are distributed to society as a whole, insofar as truly nationalized enterprises are concerned, this is the case here in Sweden, although the Moderates are somewhat busy selling-off some of the national-owned companies (Absolut Vodka a couple years ago, and now Apoteket, our national state-run pharmacy, in 2009)

what the USA has, no matter which of your 2 parties are in power (I do not believe in the false left-right paradigm that your country suffers under so badly for the last 30 to 40 years) IS FASCISM, wherein all profits (minus an ever-decreasing tax levy) go to private pockets, and all losses, by the large multi-nationals are simply transferred to the society as a whole

the insurance companies are so deeply in debt, due to derivatives, that they will never recover without several trillion tossed blindly to them, let alone provide a humane schema of medical treatment they are as if financial zombies, as are many of the banks (JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, etc) wondering the financial earth, wreaking havoc and despair (AIG alone has gotten hundreds of billions in dollars from the USA Federal Reserve private bank, and is going to get hundreds of billions as the months roll by) Obama had this bait-and-switch planned all along, for he is simply a puppet of the USA/UK bankster oligarchs

[Grinchie]

333. Well, you have to admit that 1 Trillion a year keeps the Military in line.

[natrat]

12. the royal scam on the american public is in high gear baby-pedal to the metal

[high density]

14. I suspect the $90 billion would be the cost of covering more people

I think the problem here is that people are underestimating Obama again. I don't think he's so stupid to drive straight through all this Republican BS only to throw the car in reverse when he's 75% of the way toward the finish line.

[No Elephants]

20. If Obama gets a bill with the public option, he'll sign it. If he gets a bill without the public

option, he'll sign it.

The left damn well better start talking to the Congress critters, especially Senators, and their newpapers and radio and TV stations and showing up at meetings. If we don't, we can't complain about what happens to us.

[John Q. Citizen]

23. We had to fight to get into the White House Summit, to get into Senate Testimony, to

get anywhere at all.

I'm thinking we should start bribing Senatorsa. It seems to be the fast track to getting things passed.

[No Elephants]

27. I feel your pain. I don't think the Founders foresaw either K Street or

lifetime Congress Critters. Back then, serving your country was a personal sacrifice. However, in the end, no matter how many dollars get to Senators, they need our votes to stay in office. And the few of us who vote keep re-electing the same clowns. We need to start making greater use of of our votes, in both primaries and in elections. I was furious with Barney Frank when he said the problem with Congress is that voters "don't hold us accountable. They let us get away with too much." However, he is partly right, even though he completely evaded any responsibility of his own.

Also, I wish we had one large, effective umbrella organization that we could support that would lobby for ALL progressive issues. I cannot support all of the splinter groups.

[Walk away]

24. But we aren't suppose to attack the Blue Dogs and....

if we can't push hard on them then what is the point. It's the votes that matter.

[No Elephants]

30. I never said you weren't supposed to attack the Blue Dogs. But, IMO, the

Blue Dogs are not the only problematic elected officials. If we had a President and Democrats in Congress who were effective and who REALLY wanted single payer, that is what would be on the table now--and it would pass, despite the Blue Dogs.

(Part of being effective is knowing how to sell America on what you want when you have an overwhelming majority in Congress and the Presidency, too.)

Instead, we have a bunch--and not only Blue Dogs--who get a mandate and then talk out of both sides of their mouths. "Oh, I'd love single payer, but it's never going to happen, so let's not even try."

Why did the Republicans never say anything like that when Dummya was President and the Republicans had the majority? Why do Democratic Senators elect Reid as Majority Leader? Why did the House elect the pre-emptive table clearer as Speaker of the House? Why do Democrats never get fed up with them and put strong, progressive Democrats in their place?

No, Blue Dogs are not our only problem in D.C. It's the corporatist Republicrats, some of whom try to sound like Republicans and some of whom try to sound like Democrats. But, the differences between them get fewer by the year.

(And, btw, for my money, you can and should attack the Blue Dogs and corporatist Democrats all you want. PRIMARY them, too.)

[mvd]

31. Hi

I get your point about the Repukes; they even tried to privatize social security! But do you really think that enough Democrats in Congress want single payer? I really wish they did, but I doubt it. Even if they did, they give into the corporations.

[No Elephants]

33. No, I don't think most Democrats in Congress really want single payer.

I don't even think most Democrats in Congress are really Democrats. I think we get closer to one Republicrat party every year, especially since the phenomenon of "Reagan Democrats."

[mvd]

39. Unless Sebelius is using reverse psychology..

I'm not sure even how important the public option is to the President and many Democrats. We'll see soon enough. If we don't get a strong public option, my grade for Obama so far will likely drop a grade - along with Congressional Dems - but it's for a legit reason IMO.

[No Elephants]

88. Um, are you saying that

your reason for lowering your opinion of Obama and Congressional Dems are legit? If so, does that mean that others' reasons are not legit, or not as legit as yours? If not, what do you mean?

[mvd]

363. No, other reasons can be just as valid

I was just stating one concern that's valid from my perspective.

[No Elephants]

405. Thanks for the clarification. It's a valid concern from anyone's perspective, I imagine.

Maybe death certificates should start telling the truth, (when it is the truth, of course):

Cause of Death: Could not afford medical care. By the time s/he got take to the Emergency Room, it was too late.

Happened to my son's friend last year.

[defendandprotect]

205. Corporate DLC and "blue dogs" should be under attack . . .

especially when it comes to targeting them at the next elections --

Meanwhile, did we think that Obama would elope into the White House with the DLC????

I didn't --

I was actually shocked -- and I didn't think I was naive!! I was!!

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

147. If he gets a bill with voo-doo and shamanism in it, he'll sign it.

If it's just a single sentence, "Maybe we'll think about doing something in the future," he'll sign it.

If it's just a smiley face with the words, "Have a Nice Day!" he'll sign it.

Just as long as the cover sheet has the title, "Health Care Reform Act of 2009."

[totodeinhere]

22. This is an exrememly sad depelopment.

We might have to work hard in 2010 to elect a Congress that will enact single payer and force Obama to go along with it. Actually, we need about 300 more Dennis Dennis Kucinich's.

[SomeGuyInEagan]

26. Yes, a Congress with a spine would help.

We've never been this close to solving this issue. But Obama is clearly the leader on this issue. He leads the charge, whatever that charge may be.

*If* we end up with coops or some other watered-down piece-of-crap, the will be a huge backlash in 2012, led by many of us (*we* vote, *we* give money). I'm tired of gutless leaders and nobody representing 98 percent of us.

[No Elephants]

41. Trouble is, we may not be 98% of us. And, if we are, we are not

acting like it.

After Perot made a showing unheard of in modern times, the Republicans and Democrats closed ranks to freeze out third party candidates as much as they reasonably could. And they acted together to control things like debates, rather than either let the media try to get at the truth, or let some body with impeccable credentials, like the League of Women Voters, continue to control them.

This means that the only ones who have any realistic chance of getting elected these days are the Republicans and the Democrats. Realistically, if you vote third party or stay home, you only help the one party of those two that you hate most. That means that most Democrats who tend to vote will vote Democrat, no matter if the candidate is Kuchinich or LIEberman. So, Democrats are not courting you. You don't decide elections. They are courting--or at least trying not to turn off--the swing voters, those who vote Democrat sometimes and Republican sometimes, commonly referred to as "indpendents." And the way not to turn them off is to be as purple as you can.

The only hope Progressives have, IMO, is to try to impact all of that somehow. Or resign ourselves.

On edit: Another problem: Republicans seem to do a better job of selling than Democrats do. Simple and simplistic slogans. Lies, if that's what it takes.

And then, there is the K Street problem.

[SomeGuyInEagan]

374. By 98 percent, I am not writing of liberals, progressives, etc.

I am writing of the 98 percent of us who are NOT being represented in Washington ... left, right and center. Washington looks out only for the interest of the upper 2 percent, the ones who really run corporate America. They own Washington, regardless of "party," with only a couple of exceptions.

[defendandprotect]

206. Somehow we can't get it thru our heads that corporations OWN Congress/government ....

we keep saying that -- but we don't quite get it!!!

We have to end campaign finance BRIBERY . . . otherwise, we can't change anything!!

[No Elephants]

45. We already elected an overwhelmingly Democratic House, 60 Senators and the

President. What the f--k more do we have to do?

Work more at the primary stage, I guess.

[Doctor_J]

61. But at least 20 of the Dem Senators are traitors and appeasers

including the "leader".

[No Elephants]

91. Yes, but that is because of anything we did or did not do. WE did what was

incumbent upon us, and then some. And it's not only those 20. Please see Reply ##'s 27, 30, and 41.

Progressives have let the corporatists get entrenched. We have to make up our minds if we are going to get really active or sit down and shut up or whine endlessly and ineffectively. Those are the only choices I see at this point.

For me, I am active all along, contacting people and donating. I am going to get really active at the primary stage, and not only in my own state. I don't care if it's Reid or Kerry or an official Blue Dog. If they are not voting the way I like, I will fight to PRIMARY them. And, if I fail, I WILL vote third party, to send a message.

No more donating to the DNC.

[totodeinhere]

103. I'm in Nevada and unfortunately, it doesn't look like Reid will have

any credible primary opposition.

[No Elephants]

120. Are you doing anything about that? If we progressives want change, they are going to have to

be VERY active at the primary stage--and I don't mean only voting in a primary. Most I know are not even members of the state party.

However, if a primary vote is all you are up to, I'd write in someone, rather than vote for any candidate who is not credible, be it Reid or his opposition. At least then you will have used your franchise to send a message.

[defendandprotect]

207. You have to end campaign finance BRIBERY . . . they're all "pre-owned" . . .

somehow, we all keep saying we know corporations own Congress . . .

but we keep behaving as though they don't!

[Joe Bacon]

66. Get ready for a GOP Congress in 2010.

It's a rerun of Clinton all over again.

[veritasvg]

185. Uh Huh...

...and I also say look out for another attempt at impeachment of a sitting President.

[OwnedByFerrets]

28. This was inevitable from the beginning, but it damn sure hurts

to see it unfold. Thousands will continue to die because of these decisions to pander to corporations.

[mvd]

29. This would be my first major disappointment with Obama

I expected the Afghanistan stuff, even if I disagree with it. With the banks, I'm still withholding judgment. But I can't believe after looking at the history of co-ops, the public option is not considered the essential element.

[No Elephants]

57. My first was his choice of Rick Warren for the most important national

religious function since Washington was sworn in. And I've had several others since, including a lot of corporatist appointments. Actually, maybe some of his appointments were among my first disappointments bc they preceded the Warren announcement.

Guess I'm "lefter" than you. That's a hoot because it's news to me. Until I posted here for a while, I thought I was a centrist. I was not even registered Democrat until December, 2004, right after Dummya won his second term.

[mvd]

63. I'm not sure you are more left, but I tend to be patient and pragmatic

I give benefit of the doubt sometimes. I think we want the same things, though.

[No Elephants]

84. I am not sure which of us is more left OR which of us is more pragmatic.

As far as patient, I bet I've been voting Democrat a lot longer than you have, sigh, during which time lefties have lost a lot of ground, IMO. And I am just now thinking of going third party. So, I have been patient for decades, when perhaps I should have drawn a line a lot sooner. But, there's nothing I can do about the past. My lines are drawn now, though.

[still_one]

276. The question you need to ask is there that much of a

Difference between the two parties?

[No Elephants]

403. Between the Republicrats and ? Drawing a blank on the other one.

As you might be able to tell from the subject line of this post, I've asked myself that before.

[still_one]

423. I hear you, and that is the very question I am asking myself, the one you poised

I don't know. However, I will know by the end of the year

Actions will tell me

[fasttense]

111. My 1st disappointment with Obama was when he voted in favor of giving Telecoms immunity from

violating the Constitution. It sent a chill down my spine to see how a constitutional professor so easily agreed to give away our right to be secure in or person, house, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures.

[No Elephants]

114. Embarrassed to say that I totally believed him when he said he would fix that vote once he got to

the WH. So, I did not get disappointed on that one until later.

[Name removed]

402. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Onlooker]

34. Obama's getting more comfortable with the status quot

At this point it seems like all Obama wants is a national health care plan. At the rate he's going, the plan he's putting together will do nothing more than provide insurance companies with 40 million new customers. American people: 0, Insurance companies: 1.

[dmosh42]

36. Bring on the "Progressive Party"! No more whoring! n/t

[defendandprotect]

208. Where is it ... ??????????????????????

[Joe Bacon]

38. Stick a fork in health care reform. It's dead.

We're going to have to wait another 15-20 years before we can try (and fail) again.

[No Elephants]

43. Teddy Roosevelt was he first to advance universal health care. And who

knows how long it will be until Democrats have the WH, Congress and 60 Senators again. Plus, if they let this go down in flames, tthe next defeat is going to be easier. In other words, I think 15 to 20 years is optimistic.

On the other hand, more and more employers are going to have to cancel medical benefits. So, that might make the voting public more amenable to universal health care. I just hope the nation isn't down an irreversible black hole economically by then.

[Joe Bacon]

44. Teddy Roosevelt advocated National Health Insurance in 1912

Wilson and Taft just took him apart over it. Repeatedly said how Roosevelt was into regulation.

[No Elephants]

48. Yes, he was into ecologic conservation, health care and not letting corporations get too big to fail

That bastard!

[defendandprotect]

210. Teddy also made clear we had to "bar corporations from any participation whatever in elections"-!!

We have to end campaign finance BRIBERY or we will only keep going backwards

into corporate fascism.

All of our elected officials are "pre-owned" --

All Democrats had to do was call their members out into the streets to demonstrate
for single payer --

Labor Unions could have done it --

Women's groups could have done it --

GOP has done it in calling out their thugs -- very successfully!!!

[No Elephants]

392. Did he? I may just write him in next election. Dead, he may just be a better candidate than some

of those who are theoretically still among the living.

I think union members were finally asked to show up at the town halls. But, I don't know if the Democratic structure initiated that or the unions did it on their own. The AFL-CIO in particular has been very active.

[Fire1sKid]

325. I think by that time myself and Fire1........

will be in another country.It is sickening to wake up everyday in a country where the rich get richer and the poor dont get a fuckin thing.

[Hulk]

40. Sorry...but until I hear it from Obama...I'm not buying it.

Not that I'm holding President Obama to some higher level and I can believe no one else; but my feel on Sebelius and several others (Emmanuel, Dodd, etc.) is that they are serving as a smoke screen. They do NOT speak for the President.

He is saying one thing, they are saying another. Maybe it's going to come down to our independent legislators, and what they can muster to put on his desk. It might even be, God forbid, that we have to begin with something less than what we will end up with in a year or two down the road. But I don't see "co-ops" doing anything...and I think this is sheer smoke.

[mvd]

42. Hope you are right!

It concerned me that she said it on a major network's talk show. But some other things, like how the President discusses it, also make me wonder.

I agree that it's not over yet. Sebelius did say something like this before. We have to keep making our voices heard.

[man4allcats]

222. Re: "Sebelius and several others ... are serving as a smoke screen."

I am inclined to think this as well. I do have some concerns about these recent comments on the tentativeness of a public option, but for the moment at least I prefer to believe President Obama is merely channeling Paul "Cool Hand Luke" Newman as he maneuvers into position. I'm hoping the President will stick to his conviction to vote only for a bill with a strong public option and further that such public option will not have been weakened as discussed in the article "Bait and switch: How the “public option” was sold."

[No Elephants]

408. Let's hope a bill with a strong public option gets to his desk. That way, we won't

have to find out whether or not he would sign a bill without a public option. Because Sebelius, Rahm and Gibbs all seem to be saying that he'd prefer a public option, but they don't say he'd veto a bill without one.

[still_one]

277. You are right. Also do not trust anything from the media

Only believe what you see or hear yourself

[onehandle]

49. White House appears ready to drop 'public option'

Source: AP

WASHINGTON – Apparently ready to abandon the idea, President Barack Obama's health secretary said Sunday a government alternative to private health insurance is "not the essential element" of the administration's health care overhaul.

The White House indicated it could jettison the contentious public option and settle on insurance cooperatives as an acceptable alternative, a move embraced by some Republicans lawmakers who have strongly opposed the administration's approach so far.

Officials from both political parties reached across the aisle in an effort to find compromises on proposals they left behind when they returned to their districts for an August recess. Obama has been pressing for the government to run a health insurance organization to help cover the nation's almost 50 million uninsured.

Sebelius said the White House would be open to co-ops instead of a government-run public option, a sign Democrats want a compromise so they can declare a victory on the must-win showdown.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090816/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_h...

[kenny blankenship]

50. The feeling is mutual.

[Robb]

51. You have got to be fucking kidding me. nt

[Oregone]

52. Bait and switch.....and then drop?

But, you need this shiny piece of candy to coral the herd.

[tridim]

53. Thankfully the President doesn't agree as he has already stated he will not vote for a bill..

without a strong public option.

AP noise.

[oberliner]

58. His comments at the recent Town Hall seem to indicate a softening of that position

"All I’m saying is, though, that the public option, whether we have it or we don’t have it, is not the entirety of health care reform."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/08/bara...

[tridim]

65. Let me state it again..

The President has already stated that he will not sign a bill that doesn't include a strong public option.

One more time in case you didn't get that..

The President has already stated that he will not sign a bill that doesn't include a strong public option.

And once more for the road..

The President has already stated that he will not sign a bill that doesn't include a strong public option.

Oh what the hell, here it is again 5 times..

The President has already stated that he will not sign a bill that doesn't include a strong public option.
The President has already stated that he will not sign a bill that doesn't include a strong public option.
The President has already stated that he will not sign a bill that doesn't include a strong public option.
The President has already stated that he will not sign a bill that doesn't include a strong public option.
The President has already stated that he will not sign a bill that doesn't include a strong public option.

Get it? Got it? Good. Thanks for your concern.

[oberliner]

68. He is allowed to change his mind

I think he will be presented with a bill that does not include a strong public option, and I think he will sign it.

I guess we shall have to wait and see what happens.

[tridim]

69. No, we don't just wait to see what happens.

We hold him to his word and make certain it happens.

What the hell happened to DU's spine?

[No Elephants]

105. How specifically do you suggest we hold him to his word after he signs a bill?

We can vote him out I guess, but, IMO, he is already on track to be a one term President. He will either lose the nomination or the election. And no, I am not one who thought he was going to lose in the past. I donated my legal limit to him in Decedmber 2007 and then went over every time McCain's numbers went up. But I do not intend to vote for Obama again, not in a primary anyway.

[tridim]

115. Hold him to his word NOW.

WTF are you talking about?

[No Elephants]

339. Um, according to you, his "word" is that he will veto

a bill without a public option. You said we should hold him accountable. However, we will not know whether or not he's kept his word until a bill lands on his desk and he either vetoes one without a public option or he signs one without a public option. The only way to hold him accountable that I know of is to vote him out. That's I'm talking about.

As far as holding him to what you claim is his word now, that is easy to post, but not so easy to actually do IRL, except by voting him out. Read this thread. I and others have posted what we have done so far. I have also posted that I don't know what more to do and asked for specific suggestions. If you know of ways to hold him to his word that we have not tried yet, please tell us. And again, I ask that you be specific because specifics talk, while vague, general statements walk.

Speaking of what you claim to be his word, have you replied to my requests for a link to back up your post 65?

[Joe Bacon]

76. He also said he would repeal "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

He retreated on that, too!

[tridim]

79. Nope, he has not retreated on DADT at all.

It's just not going to happen today, and when it does happen it will be done right.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-dontask15-200...

"Obama maintains that Congress should overturn the law rather than his doing so by executive order, and he's right. That way, a President Romney or, say, President Palin could not reinstate "don't ask, don't tell" with his or her own stroke of the pen. Right now, Obama is moving cautiously, apparently aiming to avoid the experience of President Clinton, who wrestled clumsily with this issue early in his first term. But this is not 1993. Then, about 44% of Americans favored allowing gays to serve openly; last year, a Washington Post/ABC News poll put that number at 75%. And support is bipartisan: 64% of Republicans support a repeal."

[No Elephants]

99. Bull. He could use his STATUTORY power to suspend DADT discharges until

Congress acts. And, btw, a later Congress can repeal a statute passed by a previous Congress, so the argument about the Executive Order is bogus.

BOTH Obama and Congress can act. It is not either or. Action by EIHER or both would make it harder for the next President and the next Congress to do anything, especially if there is wide bi-partisan support for repeal. The easiest thing for a successor President and a successor Congress to do then would be to leave it as is. And, if put on the spot, even a Repuke could say that the military has been though enough changes. Too bad Obama changed it, but since it has been changed, morale, stability, blah blah requires that it now stay as is. And then get six generals from the Pentagon to back that up, same as Obama does.

The fact that one writer on the LA times and you say Obama is right does not make it so. Hundreds of writers, including experts on military law, have said the opposite.

Passing that, this is about what Obama campaigned on, not the pluperfect way to be decent to our gay troops. He is the one who said he would get rid of DOMA and DADT. If he really intended to do nothing unless and until Congress acted, he should not have campaigned on repeal. He should have said, "Hey, I have nothing to do with this. Check with your Congress Critters. The most I can HONESTLY say is, if they get repeal of DADT and DOMA to my desk, I won't veto either."

[Joe Bacon]

107. Precisely!

Meanwhile, Obama looks the other way as competent military officers are discharged for violating DADT.

[No Elephants]

113. Worse. He lied to the one who resigned and wrote him. Her name is not leaping to my mind this

second, but you know who I mean. She wrote him about integrity and he wrote back deceptively.

[tridim]

116. Yep, more people ignoring what he has already stated RE: DADT

Typical, and disgusting.

You don't have a clue how our political process works.

[No Elephants]

122. Actually, I do know how our system works. So do experts on military law.

From experts on military law:

http://www.palmcenter.org/press/dadt/releases/New+Study...

And read Reply 99 and tell me exactly what you think is legally, factually or strategically wrong with what I wrote there. (Hint: Absolutely nothing would be the right answer.)

Besides, I am not into a President who slips and slides. On the campaign trail: I will repeal DADT and DOMA. Now: Oh, I meant Congress might repeal them...someday... and I won't veto it. Yeah, that's the ticket. That's exactly what I meant for you to believe I was saying when you voted for me."

BTW, do you have a link to your claim that Obama will veto a bill without a public option--and, btw, what precludes his saying that a co-op IS a public option?

If you want to know what I find disgusting and depressing on DU, it's the Kool Aid drinkers who defend Obama no matter what, then insult those of us who don't do the same. The insults are not because we don't know what we are talking about, but because we are not taking Obama at his word. Which is getting harder and harder to do. Remember FISA?

We criticize Obama and the depressing posters on DY go ad hom on us because they cannot really refute what we say. I stick to issues and will never attack anyone personally unless they are a jackass to me first. I suggest you stick to the issues. Criticism of Obama is not a personal attack on you.

[bkkyosemite]

158. And he said yesterday...

"All I’m saying is, though, that the public option, whether we have it or we don’t have it, is not the entirety of health care reform."

[No Elephants]

182. Got a link to a direct quote from Obama? Are you sure you are not thinking of his promise to

veto a bill that TAXES health benefits?


http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/06/emanuel-obam...

I googled and I could not find a quote from Obama promising o veto any bill that did not contain a public option, so I'd love a link.

[24601]

396. no brainer, presidents have no vote, just a signature or veto n/t

[No Elephants]

411. She probably meant veto.

[derby378]

54. No public option, no health care reform

I don't trust this "co-operative" between insurance barons. Sounds like the fox guarding the henhouse.

[Berry Cool]

55. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

They're doing it again...



With a majority in both houses...they are doing it AGAIN...

Don't they KNOW, that if they DO this, the teabaggers WIN?????????????

My God, what do we have to DO to these people to get them to do as we ask???????????????

[GinaMaria]

56. C'mon! Is the astroturf really winning this argument?

We've gone from a strong public option to a contentious public option in a matter of weeks. We will never be free of the corporate chains that bind us

[Doctor_J]

60. Nope.

it's already won. The terrorists won.

I have said this before, but it bears repeating - Rove was right when he said that Dems are soft on terrorists. He said that after we were attacked on 9/11 the Dems would have sought counseling for the terrorists. Well, terrorists attacked us again on the health care debate, and guess what we did?

It's over. I am going to redouble my efforts to find a job in a civilized country. THere is no one here to support any more.

[GinaMaria]

90. I've been thinking the same thing

time to look into another country. So much for the concerns of Main Street over the concerns of Wall Street. So disappointing and depressing. I feel trapped for life. I'm working a job I hate at a corrupt company just for the benefits. If we could all do the work we love without the threat of no health care coverage, we would be a much happier and healthier people.

And yes, I agree with you... these are corporate terrorists.

[Individualist]

123. DLC won from the beginning

All the "argument" was nothing more than a dog and pony show.

[No Elephants]

271. Not the astroturf. The corporatists. They won before the first town hall was a gleam in Armey's

eye,

[Taverner]

127. Sigh it was nice while it lasted...guess I'll be staying home next election

Fuck those blue dog inbreds...

[defendandprotect]

213. Btw, BILL CLINTON was giving Obama a lot of assistance on dropping public option . . .

basically he was saying . . . "liberals want a pony" -- !!!

And I think that bodes ill for the future of SS and Medicare --

If we don't ensure that we do get public option/single payer they will take

us backwards even further.

[undergroundnomore]

349. screw the pony

I want single payer health care. The plant where my husband worked shut its doors and now there are almost 2,000 families who don't have pay checks or health care.

That's men, women, and most painfully of all children. The children who sit in my classroom. The children who can't afford school supplies. Those children.

Who's looking out for the children?

My husband is fortunate because my job has health insurance. I lived without insurance for a period of time and I know the fear that you might get sick, might need medicine, might need an operation that you can't afford. Worse yet that your kids might need it. Don't they care? What in the HELL is going on?

[Doctor_J]

59. Get ready for Speaker Boner, Majority Leader Frog Face, and

President Palin in 2013

The Dems are not getting any more money, volunteer time, or even votes from me. I've been voting Dem since 1978, and it's over.

[tridim]

67. What's depressing to me is how much of a pushover most of you are.

You people give up at the drop of a hat, even though Obama has clearly stated he will veto any bill without a strong public option.

Defeat-o-crats, right here on DU.

It's pathetic.

[No Elephants]

109. If he said that and meant it, what we post on the subject is irrelevant.

And I don't know that people have given up. I don't trust Obama at this point, but that has not stopped any of my efforts to keep him and Democrats honest. I still contact my Dem Rep, my two Dem Senators and the WH and I still donate to the causes I support. I just don't donate to the DNC anymore and I will not be donating to, or voting for, anyone who votes for or signs a health care bill without a strong public option. I have so stated to all of them too.

[Frank Booth]

71. So, do I "recommend" this because it looks like Obama's sold us all out, or "unrecommend"

it? I still don't understand that feature.

Anyway, Obama sure gives up easily. This will set a nasty precedent. Now the Republicans know that if they lie long enough and loud enough (and get a few DINOs to help), Obama will cave.

I'm starting to think I got bamboozled, hoodwinked, and okie-doked.

[tridim]

75. You have a third option, log off of DU and pout all day.

That'll really help our cause.

[Frank Booth]

83. It won't help our cause any more or less than defending a politician on a message board who

convinced a fair number of us (including me ) that he had spine and that he put lower and middle income people's interests above those of the corporations.

I spent time and money helping to get Obama elected. Now, I'm more than a little bitter. Give it a couple months -- you will be too.

[tridim]

85. I said you should log off and pout, not pout to me.

I already know you are a defeatist, no need to state it again.

[Frank Booth]

94. I don't like to log out because it takes me forever to find my pass word.

But you're right that I probably should take a break from DU for a while. Every time I think about how Obama is apparently putting the interests of the insurance industry above those of most Americans, my blood pressure spikes.

[bkkyosemite]

162. You have not noticed the change in words, actions, and non actions.

[nashville_brook]

77. rec for visibility

[No Elephants]

119. If you want to draw people's attention to a thread--for whatever reason--you

recommend it. At least that's what I do, if I think about it. But don't worry too much either way. Once it is well over 5 recs, it's on the greatest page and unlikely to budge.

[IndianaGreen]

80. Here is Reuters report on Sebelius remarks on CNN State of the Nation

For the benefit of those that claimed the AP mischaracterized or misquoted Sebelius, you know who you are.

Public insurance plan not essential: Sebelius

Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:40am EDT
By John Whitesides

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The government-run health insurance option favored by President Barack Obama is not essential to a healthcare overhaul as long as the final measure boosts competition, a top U.S. health official said on Sunday.

Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said a public insurance option was "not the essential element" of any overhaul, and non-profit cooperatives being considered by a Senate panel could also fulfill the White House goal of creating more competition on insurance.

"I think what's important is choice and competition, and I'm convinced that at the end of the day the plan will have both of those -- but that is not the essential element," she said of the government-run insurance option on CNN's "State of the Union" show.

"The president is just continuing to say let's not have this be the only focus of the conversation," Sebelius said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE57D23Q200...

[bkkyosemite]

163. And yesterday Obama said

"All I’m saying is, though, that the public option, whether we have it or we don’t have it, is not the entirety of health care reform."

Seems to me they are saying the same thing.......Obama and Sebelius.

[JayMusgrove]

223. Associated Press just can't write an article reporting accurately, nor

can AP write an article that doesn't further tarnish our President nor can AP add further lack of clarity to a complex issue.

Let's not run off in a tirade of pouting, when all this wording this morning comes down to is splitting hairs.

Public Option, publicly sponsored non-profit co-op...what is the problem with refusing to consider the workability of each?

Only on the DU would people post and be upset by creative pragmatic thinking in politics.

[Zorra]

306. New Slogan for our Democratic Leadership: No We Can't!

Definition, Health Insurance Co-op - term for a scheme that wastes time and money; see Boondoggle.

Insurance companies are so thrilled they can hardly add up the profits this plan will generate, the Bush Dog Dinorats are ecstatic because they've all but succeeded in their mission to destroy the Democratic Party, and republicans are already making plans to further rape our country after they take over the House and Senate in the next election.

For 8 years we watched helplessly, powerlessly, as fascist republican thugs wrecked our country. The People went to the polls en masse to get the republicans out of power, and we thought we did

We've been duped. We're screwed.

Shit. Fuck. Dammit.

Shitfuck.

[cravermi]

93. Why we should support HCR even if it doesn't include a public option

I support the public option. However, I will not abandon support for the President or the Democratic party if a public option is not in the final bill. Allowing the Republithugs any inch of opportunity to take over the Congress or the White House would be a disaster.

Health care reform is important but it is not the only issue this country is facing. If we adandon our support for the Democrats, we allow Republithugs a chance to take back control of the economy, environment, and health care. For which they will give more tax cuts to rich people, turn national parks into oil fields, and do NOTHING about health care.

Isn't it better to get half of what we want with Democrats in charge versus getting nothing with Republithugs? Hell, we won't just get nothing with Republithugs, we will move the country back into the stone ages.

Believe me, if Republithugs were in charge right now, there wouldn't even be a health care discussion going on in this country.

Maybe Paul Begala and former President Clinton were right when they said that we need to implement health care reform more incrementally. Should we actively work to defeat reform just because we don't get everything we want? I mean, don't we tell our children that all good things come to those who are willing to wait.

Believe me, even with co-ops, the Republithugs we still NEVER support the final bill. Their mobs don't care about the public option versus the co-ops. They don't want health care reform period.

What's wrong with supporting what is possible right now and then continuing to fight for more reform in the future? If Medicare took an additional ten years to become law, would we want it any less?

Anyhow, I don't think that we should stop fighting for single-payer or a public option. However, we have to look at the bigger picture. To abandon our President or the Democrats in Congress will only play into the Republithugs hands. Do you want these mobs running the entire government? It will be our worst nightmare.

There are 9 innings in baseball. Just because you lose one inning, doesn't mean you lost the game.

[Blasphemer]

98. The only thing that will save this so-called reform bill in my mind is...

If states are allowed to do single payer. There is NO way that I will purchase insurance under any mandated insurance/co-op scheme - NO WAY - without that option. I may not be able to control what some blue dogs who represent states which account for 6% of the population do but I can control where I live.

[bkkyosemite]

166. It is too personal an issue. People are seeing their loved one being denied medical treatment. That

is far too much stronger a issue than preserving the Dems in office. People when their family is in need that is all that is important at the time. And they and I will be very angry if this caves in.

[Selatius]

338. But as Howard Dean said, the public option basically was the compromise.

A more expansive system like Medicare For All or a national health service system was the starting point. From there, we move to the right by clipping it down so that there is just a vestigial system set up to compete with private insurance, not push them out of business entirely. If that option is removed, I would submit to you that you got less than half of what you bargained for. You got a quarter, is what I'm saying.

I'm not saying it's worse than nothing, but the grim reality of the situation is that if we get a quarter instead of a half or even a whole dollar, a lot of people will die unnecessarily as a result.

[and-justice-for-all]

95. White House appears ready to drop 'public option'

Source: Associated Press

By PHILIP ELLIOTT, Associated Press Writer Philip Elliott, Associated Press Writer – 47 mins ago

WASHINGTON – Apparently ready to abandon the idea, President Barack Obama's health secretary said Sunday a government alternative to private health insurance is "not the essential element" of the administration's health care overhaul.

The White House indicated it could jettison the contentious public option and settle on insurance cooperatives as an acceptable alternative, a move embraced by some Republicans lawmakers who have strongly opposed the administration's approach so far.

Officials from both political parties reached across the aisle in an effort to find compromises on proposals they left behind when they returned to their districts for an August recess. Obama has been pressing for the government to run a health insurance organization to help cover the nation's almost 50 million uninsured.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090816/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_h...

---

unfucking believable!!!! I AM NOT PLEASED AT ALL!!!

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[and-justice-for-all]

100. Fuck that! The public Option is fair and appropriate!

and if insurance vampires feel they can not compete with the public option, tough shit!

The LIE that the public option would kill private health insurance is a just that, a fucking lie. Private providers exist just fine in all the other countries with national health care.

This bullshit "compromise" is infuriating! working out a deal with the devils that are the main reason for this health care disaster is not my idea of finding any solution.

[No Elephants]

137. Actually, we cannot determine if a public option is desirable unless we know

exactly what it will consist of. Nothing prevents anyone from claiming a co-op is a public option.

The more this goes on, the more I think we should have said from the jump, single payer or nothing. Hillary had that one right, but I picked Obama because I thought he was more liberal than she was. Little did I know his first term was going to be a cross between Dummya's third term and Bill Clinton's third term.

I want a do over.

[Meeker Morgan]

132. This means tweak the status quo a little ...

... so politicians and big business can dip their beaks a little more.

And presumably some few people who are under-insured now will be able to get slightly more health care. If they know exactly how to play it.

Someone please convince me I am wrong. I want so bad to be wrong this time.

[tooeyeten]

260. What Gibbs said on Face the Nation

SMITH: Does the president have to have a government-sponsored or government-run insurance plan in order for him to sign off on this, or is this a deal breaker?

GIBBS: Well, Harry, what the president has always talked about is that we inject some choice and competition into the private insurance market. There are places in this country, unfortunately, where if you don’t get insurance through your job and you are seeking it on the private insurance market, you don’t have any choice but one health insurance company. What the president has said, in order to inject choice and competition, which will drive down costs and improve quality, that people ought to be able to have some competitor in that market. There ought to be a choice that they have. The president has thus far sided with the notion that that can best be done through a public option.

http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=5&docID=new...


Seems they can't make up their minds.

[No Elephants]

346. Siding with the notion

that a public option is better (than no public option) does not equal fighting for a public option or vetoing any bill that does not contain a public option. He'd like one, but he'll live without one if a bill without one is what lands on his desk. Big whoop.

I side with the notion that single payer is better than a public option. And given all the mealy mouth and backpedaling, I am going back to insisting on single payer. I had been writing everyone in sight that I would not vote for anyone who voted for or signed a bill without at least a strong public option, but I now regret cutting back. If they can waffle, so can I. Single payer or no vote is going to be my message every week from now on.

[Little Star]

97. If not now when?????

I thought we Dems always were for Single Payer? We gave him a huge mandate, majorities in the House and the senate, why can't he just do the right thing and take care of the American people? What more does he need? What am I missing?
If we can't get Single Payer under him we might as well just give up! Let the Repigs, Ins. Co.'s, etc bankrupt us all!!!
If not now when????? What more does he need?????

[tooeyeten]

101. I'm not okay with it

and that's not why I voted for him, talk about failure!

[Deep13]

102. Deep13: America not okay with insurance co-ops.

The reason a public option is essential is because we have already compromised by not pursuing single-payer universal coverage.

[avaistheone1]

104. To hell with mouthpiece Sebelius and insurance coops.

They don't work. Forget about them.

Take that ridiculous idea off the flagpost.

[KyleA]

112. Obama was never anything more than a moderate progressive at best

How much health insurance company money did he get in his campaign? Edwards was the true reform candidate.

[CountAllVotes]

135. Edwards was the true reform candidate

Had Edwards won, we'd really be screwed now along with his "love child".

*sigh*

Welcome to the DU btw.

[Little Star]

178. Edwards was the true reform candidate........

Reille said true deformed date, not true reform candidate. LOL

Good luck with that story here!

[liberation]

224. The only decent candidate this electoral cycle was Kucinich...

... he is the only one with a track record of doing exactly what he says. Edwards was nothing but a charlatan, looking at his track record as a senator pointed that much. In fact, he should have stayed at home and let his wife be the only "Edwards" allowed anywhere near political office. She actually had far more spine, decency, and class than her husband.

If he wasn't able to keep his zipper closed even as he knew he would be running for president soon... he was a liability from the get go. Such a lack of judgment does not cast well on Edwards's capabilities as a serious candidate had he been the Dem forerunner. He talked a good game, I will give him that, but now we're seeing the same stuff with Obama... other than talking, the Dems are really doing nothing much. So I rather have stuck with the only Dem candidate that had a track record of not only "speaking" but actually doing as he said.

But he saw something in the sky, and he is kind of funny looking, so we can not have that.

[pattmarty]

124. What I have begun saying the last couple of months with the......................

................."reform" (not) of the banking industry, his "war" policies and now the health "insurance" reform, that Obama is the black Clinton. Same corporate friendly policies, different face. We will be lucky to get no pre-existing conditions, no caps on coverage and maybe a little better copays. The Dems will declare a victory and we will get the shaft.


CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN?????????????????????????

[Vinca]

125. Obama says he doesn't care if health care reform makes him a one term president.

If the people who would accept the public option because single-payer is off the table are screwed over, he might likely be a 1 term president. It's not the Republicans he needs to worry about, it's the Democrats.

[jeaps]

129. We're screwed

We'll end up with a bad government program, either a co-op or public option, which will prove what the Republicans have been saying all along, government is the problem, not the solution.

We are allowing the Republicans to dominate the discussion and we will deserve what we get.

[bc3000]

130. Kucinich 2012

[RoccoR5955]

344. Kucinich/Sanders '12 Take Back America! n/t

[RoccoR5955]

138. It's high time that all of us who supported Obama during the election, to come out, and...

...state our dissatisfaction of this proposal. It will only make the insurance companies richer, and not really help WE THE PEOPLE.
If he supports this, and there is no real public option, I, for one, will no longer support Obama, and look for his ouster.

Kucinich/Sanders '12 will be my motto!
They have been fighting for WE THE PEOPLE, not them, the corporations, and they keep doing it. These are the kinds of leaders we need, not lapdogs for corporations.

[davidthegnome]

141. God damn

To say I am disappointed would be a dramatic understatement. I am depressed, I have been let down by a man I worked long hours for. By a man who many of us have worked long hours for and struggled to make President. What happened to the momentum? The hope and change we could believe in? Because I really did want to believe in that.

Now I, living in the great economic pinnacle of success that is Aroostook County Maine (sarcasm), will continue to be unable to receive treatment for a number of health issues. Few jobs, far fewer with health insurance and none available to someone with my health issues. But hell with me, I've got a place to live, a computer with internet, a family that supports me, food. What about all of those who will lose it all when they are diagnosed with terminal illness? Or can't afford life saving medications? What about those who have ALREADY lost it all?

So many millions of people without insurance, many of whom voted for this President because we believed in his ability to inspire hope and perhaps to inspire or even create - change -.

The public option isn't essential? My ass it isn't, Mr. President. Tell that to the people dying every year because they don't have health insurance - who've been laid off or foreclosed on in the recent economic crisis and STILL can't get insurance. Tell that to parents that have children relying on them, to grandparents who are struggling more and more each year with the impossible system in place and the insane costs of live saving treatments and medications.

He should be required to see every single one of them and apologize, in person, for lacking the nerve to fight for them.

I was so impressed with his speech last night. I need to learn to read between the lines and invest in an improved bull shit detector.

I should probably try to calm down, at the moment I can't decide whether to laugh or cry or throw something.

[bkkyosemite]

169. I too have worked hard and I feel your pain. I have sent Obama at least a dozen emails telling him

or whoever (if anyone) my anger over his caving, lobbyist controlling, etc. Of course no email back.

[stlsaxman]

142. This is gonna end up being "Health Insurance Care"

[bkkyosemite]

171. Obama was sayng Healthcare now health insurance the insurance companies are probably demanding he

say Health Insurance instead cuz they are making a few concessions. What control these corporations have.

[veritasvg]

176. I Have News For Ya...

...they own the country: insurance and the banks and Wall Street in general.

Go back and read the history of healthcare reform since the Progressive Era. Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, Kennedy/Johnson, Clinton and Obama have all tried to tackle this same issue and all ended up in the exact same place.

Forget the general strikes. This isn't Canada or Britain or France.

In the end, we're not gonna have a bill. Obama and his people bailed out the banks and the rest is all for show.

This is how the country works.

[Politicub]

144. Anyone got a link to a good description of what a co-op would look like?

I'm opposed to the idea, but that's without really knowing that much about it.

It makes sense that a strong public option without a profit motive would be far superior to some for profit co-op. How else will we save money? But I'm willing to get myself educated about it.

[Cell Whitman]

155. from Joe's post upstream

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Xithras]

416. Kaiser Permanente

Others are linking to small coops, but with what's being discussed here, we need to look to a big one. Kaiser is one of the biggest nonprofit coops in the nation, and they beautifully demonstrate how things can go WRONG. 8+ million members, full nonprofit status...and more than a billion in "income" last year after all the bills were paid.

Kaiser is actually very good at preventative care and that sort of thing, but they're notorious for taking a "delay till death" approach for more expensive or experimental procedures.

[Cell Whitman]

145. This explains why Howard Dean was NOT given a job in the administration

Dean let it be known he was ready but the con artist Obama didn't want him around, knowing Dean would not watch us being sold out quietly.

Obama says he is for the option personally which he sees as way to make us think he is on our side and will shut us up, but he has never really fought for or demanded the option.

What still surprises me is why did he go down this road knowing absent the option - which I think he sold out many months ago and has been playing a con game since - when it will drive a stake in the heart of democratic party.

I won't step out my door to vote for another democrat if the option is not in the bill. Even "good" democrats can't save this nation when we have con artists and frauds leading who won't be removed. The dems have sat back and not even challenged Reid as the leader when he is so obviously a weak leader.

If 8 years of republican rule didn't wake this nation up, nothing is going to.

[stillrockin]

233. ding ding

[eagertolearn]

149. He's caving in and I am so dissapointed. What about everyone else who

find thenselves having to pay for most of their medical care becasue the insurance they have does not cover something? This is very terrible. It just ruined my day actually. I am very dissapointed in Obama. It is obvious what he needs to do and that is a single payer system like the rest of the world. I didn't realize when he said he is willing for his presidency to be a one term one to pass health care that it would be the democrats voting him out. I am so bummed. Sebelius does not impress me either. Dean should have been in her spot!

[Cleita]

150. Sebelius is a DLC, Republican Lite Democrat and so is Obama as

far as I am concerned, so of course they would favor co-ops. I'm not against them if we have to settle for better-than-nothing, but unless they put some caveats there, that private insurance companies cannot take government money to form co-ops of their own, it's all a joke and the joke is on us.

[defendandprotect]

218. We need to target DLC'ers, "blue dogs" . . . and get out in the streets . . .

Labor unions should be calling us out to demonstrate --

Women's groups should be calling us out to demonstrate --

Obama and Democrats should be calling us out to demonstrate --

Where are they???????????????????

GOP has called out their fascists, very successfully!!!

[Cleita]

220. Yeah, it's too bad we don't seem to have any leadership.

That should be our President, but instead he wants to turn the other cheek. I'm so afraid he will end up being a one term President with great unrealized potential like Jimmy Carter because of this.

[defendandprotect]

259. Worse yet, if we don't get single payer, these forces will attack SS/Medicare . . .

Clinton knocked out a good part of the New Deal -- and seems right

now to be supporting/advising Obama in a "no public option" choice saying liberals

can't have the "whole loaf of bread" -- !!!

It's all a sad joke!

[Cleita]

262. I am kind of worried about that too because I depend on it. n/t

[Doctor_J]

321. Yes, the right wing keeps escalating their attacks, because no one ever

stands up to them.

Obama made his decision to appease them on day 1. I don't know if he was naive enough to think they would meet him half way, or if he was in on the scam the entire time, but either way,

1. Health care reform has taken a major step backward, and
2. He hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell for a 2nd term

[ipaint]

331. I think the co-op plan run by ins. companies lays the

groundwork for the privitization of medicare. It's not all about gaining 45 million new customers its also about capturing the mass of baby boomers migrating to medicare in the next 15-20 years.

This is the type of plan I would expect from cheney.

[No Elephants]

390. The Republicans have people like Limbaugh on the air rabble rousing and telling them what to do.

Remember the plot for Republicans to vote in the Democratic primaries? And they have various organizations sending them emails telling them to get to the various town halls. I don't even think my Rep (a Dem) is having a town hall.

Bill Bradley says the Democrats tend to look for a knight in shining armor. The Republicans organize the hell out of themselves with think tanks, youth groups, college groups.

The church structure is also a fast and highly effective means of communicating instructions, etc. and they began co-opting that in the 70's.

Maybe Bradley's right. Seems as though we're always playing catch up and not doing it that quickly or that well.

and then there's the evil factor that I hope we never emulate.

[24601]

399. What are the new house numbers if the blue dogs become

repugs? Does the House majority change?

[Dinger]

153. Great, the repuke screamers win

Fuck that. To any senators or congressmen who go along with this SHIT, have fun 2010.

[sasquatch]

156. I guess security for the HHS secretary is not essential to our federal budget either

[Serial Mom]

165. Can anyone tell me why I should vote anymore?

I think I may be as cyanical as Carlin's rant on those who truly "own" 'Merika (introducing, our owners, the corporations!)

[bkkyosemite]

173. I will not vote anylonger if Obama (as it looks) goes back on everything he promised when

campaigning for change. If that happens we will have been lied to and scammed. I will just be from then on just one of the sheep trying to get by while the elite, corporations and paid off ledislators continue to control and enslave.

[defendandprotect]

194. Know how you feel . . .

but when many Dems stopped voting before it only helped GOP steal more

elections --

If they get away with dropping public option -- I'm sure next attacks will

be on SS and Medicare.

[Kermitt Gribble]

235. 'D' and 'R' no longer matter.

The majority in congress is made up of the money party, not Democrats. If they want to take SS and Medicare, they will. The only thing that can be done to stop it is a mass strike like other posters here have mentioned. Voting makes no difference, as evidenced by 2006 and 2008.

[defendandprotect]

193. Now you're talking about what so many have done before you . . . dropped out --

and I still don't think it's a good idea.

Would it help African-Americans to stop voting?? I don't think so??

I'm not positive, but I don't think it would help women either???

And, as far as I can see in those decades when Democrats stopped voting

it just made it easier for GOP to pull of election steals.

????????????????????

However, I pretty much feel as you do --

and I don't think this is just about single payer -- I think we'll see

new attacks on Social Security and Medicare from Dems . . .

We have to stop Campaign finance BRIBERY -- !!!

[Serial Mom]

217. It's just how I feel,

again, those that can afford a co-op with everything will be able to have the best and of course, those that can afford less, receive less.

They WILL NOT HELP anybody except the rich.

And I too have been saying it's about Campaigns and 2 things:
1. Public service is no longer public service, it's a career and all they care about from the day the oath is taken is how to get re-elected
2. And how much is there for my pockets?

As it sits now, ad agencies and the sales reps (account reps) don't even have to work in this day and age - elections pay for TV/Radio/Print advertising for 6-9 months every 2 years!

I feel campaign finance should be abolished and all candidates should be given free equal time on every TV or radio station/magazine/newspaper, If one allows 2 inches of space or 30 seconds of broadcast time for one candidate they should be required to do it for all candidates - if it were free, they would not blast us constantly and the candidates would have to use sense on the time/space alloted. I know it will never happen, but that has been my thought for years.

[defendandprotect]

226. We have to end campaign finance BRIBERY . . . or nothing else is possible . . .

[Cell Whitman]

170. Jay Rockefeller explains the fallacy of Conrad's "co-ops"

http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/jay-rockefeller-ex...

[bkkyosemite]

175. He's a Rockefeller can't he get his family to listen....

[knixphan]

174. one question

Are we really ready to primary any and every fake dem - in 2010 and beyond?

Unless the answer is 'yes', we have no right to complain.

[liberation]

204. So it is all our fault that the Dems refuse to do their job?

At which point enough is enough?

First, they needed majorities in both houses, before they could do anything about anything...

Then it was the white house, they needed the white house before they could do anything about anything...

Now we need to elect "real" Dems, apparently there is "fake I can't believe it is not a Dem" and real Dems.


There is always a next election cycle that we have to work hard towards, before things happen and/or we can complain about... They can go pound sand for all I care. And I can complain all I want. That is my right, and I will be damned if any smarmy politician is going to tell me if I have a right to complain or not.

[knixphan]

394. actually I adjust my statement -

We all have a right to complain.

And we have a right to get our pitchforks and signs and start making some noise on the street. I did during rush hour Friday.

We must start making noise on the street. With numbers.

AND with every election cycle.

[rateyes]

177. I am for single-payer. Going to the idea of apublic option was

a compromise for me. If Obama signs a bill without it, he will lose my vote in 2012. If he signs a bill without a strong public option, then it proves, at least to me, that he is spineless. I'm tired of spineless Democrats.

[defendandprotect]

183. Deals were made in the campaign finance PRE-BRIBED state . . .

[defendandprotect]

189. Just want to mention there was an article yesterday on Yahoo for a half hour

or so which I lost -- but in it BILL CLINTON was suggesting that liberals

have to compromise and have to let go of the "PONY WISH . . .

Really sickening --

Because Bill Clinton already betrayed American in overturning much of the New Deal --

and with him around to give Obama another out, I can see new attacks on Social Security

and Medicare from Democrats!!!!

In their hands, IMO, it is all threatened!!!

[LiberalLovinLug]

195. RANT ALERT: Example of the problem I feared with the Recommend/Unrecommend feature.

I noticed only 19 recommends, even though a lot of people were contributing before I got here. That seems like a low + for such a hot topic and an important development, negative though it is.

The reason I suspect is that people confuse the unrecommend button with "I'm mad about this news, I'm not going to agree with it, so this OP does not get my recommendation!"

The Unrecommend button should be used, if we have to have it, for the frivolous, the overly snarky, the biased, the uninformed pieces.....not because you feel emotionally bad reading it!

We are all big boys and girls on DU, we can take the bad news too.

RANT OVER

[GreenTea]

221. Completely fucked - No public option - We've been had.

[caseymoz]

225. Unacceptable! It's time to call and write the White House and Congress.

"The public option" was already the barely-sane, inadequate compromise for what is really called for: universal single-payer. We must tell these "Democratic leaders," loud and clear, as loudly and clearly as the opponents have been yelling, there will be no retreat on this. Those running will be machine-gunned before they get to the trenches.

For Obama, tell him he'll just have to set another deadline.

Meanwhile, it's time to line up some new and better Democratic candidates for the primaries, and let those already in there know that a good health care plan will go a long way to getting them re-elected.

I have to add: I don't think the liberal Democrats have been doing enough to mobilize for health care. I read an article (too rushed to find it now) which said that the supporters who worked so hard to put Obama in office are showing little interest in mobilizing politically for him now.

We have to restart that momentum, or all is lost. The health care industry is strongly entrenched, and has shown that it will fight tooth and nail, and mobilize whoever it could deceive.

Without a strong, constant, grass-roots effort, politicians are not going stand up against it. Guaranteed. Especially when they sense that their constituencies have lost interest.

This should be a grass-roots campaign equivalent to the one getting Obama elected.

And, BTW, it might be to something of an advantage that so many of us are actually unemployed right now. Work would be no excuse.

[texastoast]

283. Oh gosh. Another public option

We the people option. I like it.


"I don't think the liberal Democrats have been doing enough to mobilize for health care. I read an article (too rushed to find it now) which said that the supporters who worked so hard to put Obama in office are showing little interest in mobilizing politically for him now."

Ding! Ding!

Okay. It's time to get untired from all the hard work we did to get a chance for change.

What lots of folks don't realize is that the work NEVER, EVER ends. The greedmeisters are just waiting for us to falter.

And for all you "No-public-option-I'm-outta-here" defectors, you will NOT get as much accomplished by splitting the vote. You'll get Rove back in power.

Roll up your sleeves and get back in the groove. Donate, organize, and get after it.

[caseymoz]

414. So, without doing the work to replace Democrats with better Democrats,

How do you possibly think we could keep them honest, that is, keep them from selling out to the health care industry and other entrenched interests themselves? Such as the Blue Dog Democrats. We could split the vote: just in the primaries.

Republicans and Conservatives are in a dying demographic, and whereas they are still dangerous, we have to begin to take advantage of this.

Furthermore, the only way to win health care reform is to be angry enough to take the health insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies apart brick-by-brick, and to outlaw the AMA for fixing the supply of doctors at 1970 levels.

[TankLV]

228. Well - ain't that fucking white of him...

WE NEED AND WANT SINGLE PAYER.

PERIOD.

ANYTHING ELSE IS JUST CHANGING THE DECK CHAIRS ON THE TITANIC...

so very fucking disappointed - not surprised - but disappointed...

"change" my fucking ass...

[DesertFlower]

229. i am so disappointed. nt

[BlueJac]

230. After 7 months of Obama I didn't expect anything, not even "hope"!!

[stillrockin]

232. This is bullshit. Single payer now!!!

n/t

[villager]

236. White House appears ready to drop 'public option'

Source: AP

White House appears ready to drop 'public option'


By PHILIP ELLIOTT, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON Bowing to Republican pressure, President Barack Obama's administration signaled on Sunday it is ready to abandon the idea of giving Americans the option of government-run insurance as part of a new health care system.

Facing mounting opposition to the overhaul, administration officials left open the chance for a compromise with Republicans that would include health insurance cooperatives instead of a government-run plan. Such a concession probably would enrage Obama's liberal supporters but could deliver a much-needed victory on a top domestic priority opposed by GOP lawmakers.

Officials from both political parties reached across the aisle in an effort to find compromises on proposals they left behind when they returned to their districts for an August recess. Obama had sought the government to run a health insurance organization to help cover the nation's almost 50 million uninsured, but he never made it a deal breaker in a broad set of ideas that has Republicans unified in opposition.

Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said that government alternative to private health insurance is "not the essential element" of the administration's health care overhaul. The White House would be open to co-ops, she said, a sign that Democrats want a compromise so they can declare a victory.

<snip>

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

---

Read it and weep....

[hatrack]

237. If so, then what, exactly, was the point of all of this?

Awaiting confirmation, however.

[villager]

238. well, that would be the question, wouldn't it?

Sort of the question we ask ourselves after each "new" Democratic administration comes in....

[baseballguy2001]

241. punked

Hello? punked anyone?

just my .02

[No Elephants]

281. About 50 million folks who are uninsured are going to have to buy insurance

if they can possibly afford it. If they can't, the government will buy it for them--but it kind of already does that. Either way, it's fifty million new customers for the insurers.

The major benefits I can see is that you don't lose your insurance when you lose your job and they can't rule you out for pre-existing conditions or cancel you or raise your premium when you get sick. Those things are good, but they come at a price. Maybe he's also negotiated some kind of freeze or limits on premium increases--I don't know about that.

If they still get to rule out things like cancer treatment and transplants as "experimental" and therefore not covered, that will be terrible.

[laughingliberal]

422. Not Quite Correct

The government will provide some help for those who make up to 300% of the poverty level. All others are on their own to obtain insurance. Now, how does a couple at 301% of the poverty level afford a premium of $1200 per month? Those who do not qualify for the subsidy and don't buy insurance will pay a fine. Those people will pay a fine and STILL not have any insurance. This really does suck for some of us out here.

[hlthe2b]

239. He will be a one-termer if he does...

For the first time since January, 2001, I've backed off of my DU and other political blog obsession, because I've feared I would read this...

I simply can not accept this and the thought of being so sold out is so distressing. I'm beyond depressed at the thought.

[Deja Q]

240. He said he wouldn't run again if his policies didn't work...

A bit early into his rein at the time, and it seemed odd as saying such openly gave his political enemies some solid ammunition. And makes everyone else wonder if he is a sell-out because he said it a little too rea