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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 06:31 PM
Original message
Chavez asks Colombia's Uribe to explain base plan
Source: Reuters

Chavez asks Colombia's Uribe to explain base plan
Reuters
Saturday, August 8, 2009; 6:20 PM

BOGOTA (Reuters) - Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez on Saturday told Colombian President Alvaro Uribe to show up to a regional summit to explain a plan to expand the U.S. troop presence at Colombian military bases.

The proposal to allow the U.S. military to use seven Colombian military installations for counter-drug operations has soured ties between the Andean neighbors and fueled concern from governments across the region from Brazil to Chile.

A fierce opponent of U.S. influence, Chavez joins other South American leaders on Monday for a summit in Ecuador, where the base plan is expected to top the agenda. U.S. ally Uribe is not attending, but toured the region to drum up support.

"Uribe should show up, come and face the music and let's sit down and talk," Chavez told local Colombian television RCN.



Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. How can you not love Chavez
What a great leader
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ro1942 Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. agree
the world needs more like him
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Yes, this is a good leader.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
46. AMEN
And it so nice to be able to speak the truth on a site without being called "anti-American," too bad our MSM and government still demonize this man. What a bunch of uninformed shit swallower's most Americans are. When we had the FAIRNESS DOCTRINE, many people were able make those distinctions.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. Perhaps Chavez could explain what he's doing about FARC, too
and why he's agreed to allow Russian planes and ships to use Venezuelan bases and ports.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. FARC found to have weapons from at least 20 countries
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Didn't you just ask about promoting debunked bullshit? Yes, that would be you.

lol

:rofl:
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. The issue is -- what's he doing about FARC?
Do you think Hugo shouldn't take any coordinated or concrete actions against FARC?

It's a regional problem, and if he was interested in promoting regional stability, he'd work with Uribe and Correa to address the issue.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The issue is, what are our new bases doing about FARC?
How many more weapons will wind up in their hands now?

Do you think we should continue to pursue this policy that is globally recognized as a miserable failure?

If the US was really interested in regional stability, we'd work with the OAS to address the issue.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Will be doing a lot
1. No.

2. Yes. "Globally recognized as a miserable failure" is your mischaracterization. It is having an effect on FARC narcotrafficking.

3. I'm OK with the US showing leadership within the OAS on the issue, but it is preferable for discussions to be initiated and led by Latin American governments.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Uribe's government is slaughtering their own people with our money.
That's not my mischaracterization, that's just reality.

But keep plugging away with your right wing talking points. Someone must believe them.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Uribe is the narcotrafficker. This is the guy who ran RW death squads
which supported themselves by trafficking. If FARC has turned to trafficking it's because the RW militias and the government have been using their own trafficking money fighting them - and the only way to maintain equity was to come up with some money themselves. 20 years ago FARC was fighting AGAINST the traffickers and destroying coca plants and drug labs because they were, after all, communist guerillas and drug trafficking is the ULTIMATE expression of rampant capitalism, the wealthy exploiting the poor and weak.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Here's what the FARC was up to last year
<snip>

Examples of 2008 terrorist activity attributed to the FARC included the following:

In March, the FARC attacked electrical towers in Nario and Cauca, cutting off power to numerous municipalities;
In August, a bomb in Ituango, Antioquia killed seven and wounded 50;
In August, a car bomb in front of the Justice Palace in Cali killed four and wounded 26;
In August, two Bogota supermarkets were targeted with small incendiary devices;
In November, guerrillas from the FARC's 49th Front in Neiva killed Caquet council member Edinson Javier Prez;
In November, FARC members killed teacher Dora Liliana Saavedra and her husband Ferney Ledesma, in front of schoolchildren, for entertaining Colombian Army members at their home;
In December, the FARC attacked a humanitarian caravan led by the Colombian Family Welfare Institute in Caquet department with a roadside bomb, killing two health workers.

<snip>

Read more at: <http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/refworld/rwmain?... >
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. One sided hyperbole as usual.
I hope you don't think that most posters to this board take anything you say seriously.

Your slip has been showing for a long, long time.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Yes, I guess Department of State publications are "one-sided hyperbole"
And they're much more accurate than you typically dishonest hyperbole.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. You're not bringing the STATE DEPARTMENT into this
as a neutral actor?

lol

:rofl:
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:54 PM
Original message
Yes you know so much more about the situation than Obama and Hillary
because your information sources are propaganda sites funded by VIO.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
36. FOIA shows them funding the right wing.
You don't need to be Obama or Clinton to know that.

You just have to be honest. :hi:
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. And again no evidence, just your ill-informed opinion
Link to the FOIA document that describes "them funding the right wing", and we'll debate that.

But then again, since you have no real experience, exposure, or knowledge of how AID or the Peace Corps operate, I'm sure you'll just blather on endlessly about how they are agents of the secret cabal that really controls US policy.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #38
69. Well, no. As you know, these bulletins go up in the LatAm forum
regularly.

But nice try, pretending that you don't. :)
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
52. I know enough about Bill Clinton and Hillary to not put them to far out of the picture.
What's the VIO?
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
51. I classify them more as Propaganda.
Since Propaganda depends on One Sided Hyperbole to function nad get's people's juices flowing.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
48. While FARC has gotten too militant
Their original cause was just. They were driven to many unacceptable means, to fight the elitist control of their country. Just like America and most countries. The Latin American people of Venezuela, and others have made some good decisions,angering their masters, to avoid becoming like the FARC.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
50. Hi Zorro, you actually live in Colombia or have family down there?
Because you sure seem to know about a lot of stuff that doesn't get reported anywhere, including the widespread links that people post here of DU from time to time.

But you do make a good point that Uribe is experiencing a great deal of unrest from his so called Democratic government that has been on the receiving end of millions of dollars in Aid for the War on Drug from the Early 90's to the present.

You'd think that all the money that has poured in to Columbia over the past 2 decades would have ushered in some sort of social stability, but your post shows that little to no progress has occurred, other than filling the military industrial pockets with our tax dollars.

Don't even get me started with the millions of dollars funneled to Monsanto for Herbicide in the aerial bombardment of small farms in the name of the drug war.

There always seems to be an excuse for poking our noses in foreign countries, especially whan it is a good cover for Corporate money making schemes.

Here's a novel idea, how about we get the fuck out of Sovereign Nations business and let them figure it out. The time for that methodolgy is now, since it's clear that imperialist tinkering with other nations is a bonifide failure.

Time to take care of our own. If we are attacked, we will fight back, but we need to let the rest of the world face reality withour pushing our fraudulent illusion of freedom and democracy into every countries orifice without soap.

You checklist of so called FARC activities pale in comparison to what occurs in Iraq or Palestine on a daily basis.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #50
65. Hi Grinchie
If you don't think there's been some stabilization in Colombian society over the past several years, you need to do some more research.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #65
85. Hmm, Bush kissing Uribe's ass, now that's some good stabilinating!
Let's see, who was that guy on Hillary's campaign that was taking all that money to lobby for Uribe. Oh yeah, Mark Penn. $300,000 is a great stabilizer isn't it?

The Corporations are running the show, and if you don't see that, then nothing you say here is really credible until to at least acknowledge this fact.

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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #65
109. "Stabilization in Colombian society over the past several years." Since
Obama & Hillary have only been on the job six months, the credit for that stabilization must go to that fine diplomatic team of W & Condie Rice. Thanks for showing your true colors.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
71. Here's a bombing you forgot to include:
Last Updated: Monday, 11 September 2006, 09:42 GMT 10:42 UK

Colombia military in bomb scandal
By Jeremy McDermott
BBC News, Medellin

Army officers in Colombia have been accused of placing car bombs around the capital in the latest military scandal to hit the country.
The officers hoped to claim reward money from the government's informants programme for discovering the bombs.

President Alvaro Uribe made a televised address to the nation urging Colombians to keep faith in the security forces, amid a growing crisis in confidence. He has made the strengthening of the military his government's cornerstone.

Such is the crisis in confidence in the military that President Uribe decided that he had to show his face to the nation and reassure Colombians that his military, backed by Washington, was not spinning out of control.

'Isolated incidents'

In the latest scandal, army officers are accused of placing car bombs around Bogota, including one that went off wounding more than a dozen soldiers and killing a civilian.

The motivation was to claim reward money from the government, which offers payments of up to $400,000 (220,000) for information on the activities of Marxist rebels and drugs traffickers.

In another incident, 10 policemen were killed by the army in what was presented as a friendly fire tragedy. However, evidence has shown that they were killed at point-blank range.

Several soldiers, including a colonel, have been arrested and accused of murdering the policemen on the orders of a notorious drug baron.

Mr Uribe insisted that these scandals are isolated incidents and that things are getting better.
But evidence now suggests that the military are contributing to the violence, not just fighting it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5333980.stm

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #17
82. From U.S., to Salvador, to Colombian militia: a bomb's journey
May 30, 2001
From U.S., to Salvador, to Colombian militia: a bomb's journey

BOGOTA, Colombia (AP) -- Made in the USA in the 1970s. Shipped to a
Central American government fighting leftist rebels. Stolen in 1992 as
part of an assassination plot against a drug kingpin.

And planted last week by right-wing paramilitaries next to a communist
newspaper's offices in Bogota -- the journey of a U.S. Air Force bomb from an
ammo depot in Oklahoma to Colombia traces the violent history of this country,
and serves as a cautionary tale about where sophisticated munitions can wind
up if they are not guarded carefully.

The yellow 500-pound bomb, discovered May 21 by a security guard, is not a
medium-level explosive like the two that blew up in the capital on Friday, killing
four people and injuring 26.

This one, more than six feet long, is built for devastating effect. If it had gone
off, police said, it would have blown two city blocks to bits -- the worst
terrorist attack in Colombia in more than a decade.

The bomb, known as an MK-82, is favored by many air forces in the world
"where maximum blast and explosive effects are desired," according to literature
on the device.

Part of the bomb's history can be traced by the numbers engraved into it,
including 0473, which shows it was made in April 1973, according to Cathy
Partusch of the Naval Aviation Systems Team in Patuxent River Naval Air
Station, Maryland. She confirmed the device was a U.S. Air Force bomb.

More:
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/auc/bomb-journey.ht...

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #17
84. Hey, here's another of those terrifying bomb stories from Colombia:
Published on Sunday, March 17, 2002 in the Los Angeles Times
A Colombian Village Caught in a Cross-Fire
The Bombing of Santo Domingo Shows How Messy U.S. Involvement in the Latin American Drug War Can Be.

by T. Christian Miller

SANTO DOMINGO, Colombia -- Death came to Santo Domingo as its people celebrated life.
Villagers were gathering for a street fair that bright December morning, but a battle had broken out between the Colombian army and leftist rebels in the nearby jungle.

The villagers heard a military helicopter roar overhead. Seconds later, an explosion ripped through this collection of wood huts on the edge of Colombia's northeastern plain. Two children were cut down as their grandmother made them breakfast. A father was eviscerated as his sons watched. A nursing mother was nearly decapitated, her 3-month-old baby still in her arms.

In all, 11 adults and seven children died in Santo Domingo on Dec. 13, 1998.

On the surface, the attack seems to be another bit of homemade carnage in Colombia's long, bloody guerrilla war, notable, perhaps, only for the number of children who died.

But according to Colombian military court records, the U.S. government helped initiate military operations around Santo Domingo that day, and two private American companies helped plan and support them.

There is no evidence that the U.S. government or American companies knew that their aid might lead to the destruction of a village. But more than three years later, no one has been held accountable for the deaths. Civilian prosecutors accuse a Colombian air force helicopter crew of dropping a U.S.-made cluster bomb while supporting the troops engaged in battle. The military claims that guerrillas accidentally detonated a car bomb in the town.

More:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0317-01.htm

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #17
86. Get your FARC bomb news here:
U.S. Skeptical of Colombian 'Dirty Bomb' Claims
U.S. Authorities Seek Access to FARC Leader's Seized Computers and Documents
By RICHARD ESPOSITO and VIC WALTER
March 5, 2008

Skeptical U.S. law enforcement officials are seeking access to computers and documents that authorities in Colombia say show the leftist group FARC sought "50 kilograms of uranium" for a possible dirty bomb. The material was seized by Colombian police in a raid into Ecuador that killed FARC commander Raul Reyes and has led to talk of war by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez who has moved troops to the border with Colombia.

U.S. intelligence officials, while they did not comment directly on the possibility of FARC engaging in the illicit uranium trade, cautioned that reports of FARC attempting to acquire materials for a radioactive dirty bomb should be treated with extreme skepticism.

The evidence of FARC's participation in the uranium trade was first alleged this week by Colombia's national police chief, Gen. Oscar Naranjo, who also said that evidence seized proved Venezuela had interfered in Colombia's affairs by providing $300 million in support to FARC.

Gen. Naranjo cited an e-mail to Reyes dated Feb. 16, 2008 from a top lieutenant that indicated crop eradication had weakened FARC's cocaine trade and revealed the rebel group's desire to sell about 110 pounds of uranium -- supplied by the same man who "provides material for the explosive we prepare" -- for more than $1 million per pound.

"They propose the sale of each kilo (of uranium) at $2.5 million and that they deliver and we watch who we sell it to, and that it should be a business (transaction) with a government," a copy of the e-mail to Reyes, translated by ABC News, read. "Arto has 50 kilos ready, and they can sell much more; they have direct contact with those who have the product."

"When they mention negotiations for 50 kilograms of uranium, this means that the FARC are taking big steps in the world of terrorism to become a global aggressor. We're not talking of domestic guerrilla but transnational terrorism,'' Gen. Naranjo said at a news conference.

The Justice Department and the Drug Enforcement Administration are seeking their own access to the laptops, documents and other materials seized based on a 2004 criminal indictment against the leadership of FARC, including Reyes, who was No. 1 on the U.S. list of FARC leaders.

More:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4395397&page=1
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
42. the supposed legitimate Columbian government is the regional problem
Columbia has two governments - one that's backed up by US money, headed by Uribe, and another called the FARC. Why anyone should work with one over the other is beyond me.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
74. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. OMG!! Chavez is going to give FARC a
RUSSIAN AIRCRAFT CARRIER!?!?!?!?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. LOL
:rofl:
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. And why he is building the largest land force in the region, well in excess of any of his neighbors
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. The fact that we already tried to kill him once can't be discounted.
:sarcasm:

Nor can our plans to put in 7 new bases on his border?

What would you do? Send the Welcome Wagon?

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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Why such dishonest hyperbole?
"We" didn't try to kill him.

We aren't putting 7 new bases "on his border".

Why such persistent dishonesty?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. There was a plot to assassinate Chavez thanks to the Bush administration...
So it's not the poster yr replying to who's being dishonest if anyone is....
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. And for that he needs T-90s?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. If he thinks he needs them for the protection of his country, then who are you to say otherwise?
It's not like you've got Venezuela's best interests at heart...
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. When was the last time the US attacked Venezuela?
Do you think the US intends to attack Venezuela in the future?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I don't know and really don't care seeing as how I wasn't talking about the US...
No offense, but yr very US-centric in yr thinking. You do realise there's a whole lot of other countries out there other than the US?
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Having lived in several other countries
I think I have the big picture.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Did your bubble go with you to all those places?
lol
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. Yr US-centric attitude indicates otherwise when it comes to a big picture n/t
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #27
55. Sorry, but I think you need new Glasses.
Because you certainly arent able to interpret the big picture very well, despite your assertions that you are right, and all the others here that are pointing out the holes in your rhetoric are wrong.

Since I don't know your backround, your experience, your travels, or your training in these matters, I can only come to the conclusion that you are aither and apologist, shill, or propagandist yourself.

You'd like to paint this a some sort of Good vs Evil thing, just like all the rest of the imperialist that desire the downfall of a particular foe, but History is not on your side, and your ignorance of history is what makes you look like a marketer of some sort of B.S.

Just exactly what is your position in defending new bases and increased U.S. Military in Columbia? What good will it do, especially when the Southern Americas are now shedding the American system like a moldy trenchcoat? Are you adamantly anti drug, or did the FARC disappear a relative or something?
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #55
63. Feel free to point out the "holes" in my "rhetoric"
If you actually read my posts, you will see that my agenda is to promote the truth. And the truth is that the US is not creating seven bases on the Venezuelan border.

However, the binary "thinkers" immediately consider recognizing such facts as an act of Democratic apostasy, despite the policy pronouncements of the Obama administration. The reality is that events in Latin America are more complex than strictly black and white, and I do recognize that.

So if you want to label those that support administration policies as shills, apologists, or propagandists, that's your perogative. But I daresay supporters of those policies are more likely to be the majority of Democrats.

BTW, declaring me to be ignorant of history is not advisable.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #63
83. Neither is fighting someone who must have the last word like you
When you start talking about history, I'll be watching, and I'll be interested if you can cobble together some excuse for the last 30 years of the same old shit in Columbia.

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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
54. Touche, when was the last time the US Attacked Iran?
Maybe you should ask Jacobo Arbenz...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #21
76. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
clixtox Donating Member (941 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #21
79. 2002! By fomenting a coup against the elected President! N/T
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #21
110. From post #86, above.
"The material was seized by Colombian police in a raid into Ecuador that killed FARC commander Raul Reyes and has led to talk of war by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez who has moved troops to the border with Colombia."

If Uribe's army is going to raid cross border into Ecuador, who's to say he won't do the same with Venezuela?

I'll tell you who - Chavez.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #19
73. Under that logic, who is Chavez to question what Uribe is doing
its not like Chavez has the vbest interest of Honduras at heart
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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
100. And why does the US military need all its equipment?
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. So provide the detailed evidence of the US plot to kill Chavez, Violet
And I'm requesting compelling proof, not idle speculation.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. No amount of evidence would persuade you that Bushco would plot to assassinate him...
Those of us who do acknowledge that the Bush administration was responsible for some terrible things don't find what's come to light about plots to assassinate Chavez surprising nor out of character for what the US govt got up to. For anyone else who unlike you actually is interested in the plot to assassinate Chavez, a simple Google will provide a lot of information...
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. So it appears you've got nothing other than idle speculation
Thought so.

And "dishonest hyperbole" remains an accurate characterization.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. I think we should just keep you as a pet to remind us how far we've come
from the days that right wing bulleria was believed by thinking people.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. No offense
but you should learn what the difference is between rhetoric and reality.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #25
57. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #25
111. Nothing idle about it, seeing as how the 2002 coup followed the same
CIA script used in Iran, Chile, and Haiti, to just mention a few.

But as others mentioned, no amount of documentation would convince someone who refuses to see it.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #111
115. Oh, and Zelaya. Let's not forget Honduras. Same script, different players. nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #37
58. Deleted message
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #58
64. For someone who doesn't know what VIO is
and thinks EFerrari is a "he" pretty much shows the caliber and accuracy of their "research".

Dazzle us again with another emptyheaded post, Grinchie.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #64
87. Deleted sub-thread
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #37
67. Deleted sub-thread
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #33
78. I'm sure he would have supported the Contras as well...
I think those left-wingers who go all hysterical, frothy at the mouth about Chavez are bad enough, but I suspect they've got the attitude that the US should always be dominant over that region, and those countries should do what's in the interest of the US, not what's in their own interests. It's a stupid and outdated mindset, but it's really only US conservatives who I've seen jumping on the bandwagon of corrupt and violent leaders in the region who kill their own civilians. All of that's 'propaganda' and not important if the leader in question is a 'friend' of the US...

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. The support Chavez got from all over Latin America is proof enough
Edited on Sat Aug-08-09 09:42 PM by EFerrari
that no one in the region besides the homocidal lapdogs that you support in Peru and Colombia are willing to put up with this interference ever again.

You Cold Warrior throwbacks have so lost this round.

The region organizing around the Chavez projects of regional independent is proof enough.

Ciao, pendejos!
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. You seem to think Chavez is adored throughout Latin America
You'd be in for a rude awakening, if you ever managed to go south of the Equator.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. President Chavez and his positions enjoy very wide spread support.
Because they are common sense. No American military build up, restore democracy to Honduras, become regionally independent from the IMF.

You don't have to be a genius to see the wisdom of his policies.

You do, on the other hand, have to not be a right wing wacko. :)
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. What I think is some anonymous American like you sure wouldn't know what support he has...
...and more importantly why they seem to think anyone cares the slightest about their opinion when they start pontificating about what those in Latin America 'think'...
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Let's compare experiences in South America
I've owned property there for a couple of decades now.

Do you think that means I don't know what's going on there?

Now tell us about your experiences.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. I think that means that you're a rich foreigner who owns property in Latin America
Now your positions are much more clear!! You're afraid that the mean old Socialists are going to come into power and then the glorious LAND OWNERS will get the shaft. I think that is what will happen. Good for you - you can join Bush in your whining about free and fair elections in a country where you planned on having a magic hideaway.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. What it means is that I know what I'm talking about
and I have no concerns about my property being confiscated by a government, despite your silly assertions.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #49
56. Nope. Revealing the truth is what I do
The truth is that I support Obama administration policies in Latin America, and apparently you and the rest of the sisters of hysterical outrage do not.

As has been pointed out to me, this is DemocraticUnderground.com. It is not ConspiracyWhackjob.com, nor ChavistasOnly.com, which seems to create confusion and consternation among the true believers.

So how about linking to a "lie" I have promoted? If you can't, I suggest you should go back to blowing your harmonicon.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #56
62. The trouble is, they are not Obama's policies.
They are the same policies that have been at play since the 1990's. Only a true fool woudl hide behind the skirts of a "Brand New, Fresh! Exciting!" Obama administration, considering it is populated by the same old DLC Hacks that continued the same policie from Poppa Bush through the Clinton years..

You must think people have no memories at all.. Sorry, but the GMO food isn't working. A lot of people still have a mind left, and are able to do research and think for themselves.

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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #62
66. Oh yeah they're somebody else's policies
Yeah. Right. Uh-huh.

So let's see what I'm sensing you've uncovered in your "research":

1. Secret cabal controlling foreign policy conspiracy.

2. GMO/Monsanto/government foodstuff conspiracy.

Any more conspiracy arrows in your google quiver?
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #66
88. Thank you for showing your true colors
Although a closing shot of my Tinfoil Hat would have been to obvious on your part.

Secret Cabal controlling foreign policy.. Not so secret.. the Corporations control military policy. They buy and sell public opinion at will. God forbid a true nationalist democracy stand in the way of the mummified Old White Men that believe they have the God Given right to mow down the rain forest to plant more soybeans, or mine more Mercury, or displace indiginous peoples so they can mine more resources.

It's funny that when the people say enough, and actually do something abut it, the Mummified old white men can just send in the marines like they used to.. They have to demonize countries that stand up against the ripoff they have suffered under for centuries.

And you are just another cheerleader for the old white men. Sorry buddy, it's time the indios got a chance to sit naked in the woods, living the same way they lived for thousands of years if they so choose. Apparently, they do choose to retain their culture, since they have found that the McDonalds culture of the US is not that appealing after all, especially when the American Dream is driven of debt slavery and exploitation of the lower classes.

Don't look now, but a lot of Americans are abandoning this fraud as well, because it's not working, it's unsustainable, and the fraud has been exposed for the world to see.

You really think the tired old propaganda techniques that have bee used until they are modern lore are going to work any more? You think people are stupid, and that a century of exploitation is just forgotten for a pocket full of cash?

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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #88
95. thank you for exposing that one.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #43
61. I'm sure you love the Akaka Bill too.
What good do you bring to the people in South America? WOuld they boot out Yankee if they had the chance, or would they give you a plaque in town hall?

From what I see here, I think they wouldd give you a plane ticket back home.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #61
68. Funny thing
The South Americans I encounter wish I could spend more time down there with them.

Ever been there?
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #68
89. Nope
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #41
60. Sorro is only trying to plant seeds in weak minded.
Maybe if he repeats it long enough, he can get the masses to support our continued Military presence in Columbia, and maybe besmirch Chavez at the same time.

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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #60
70. Hey Brainiac it's spelled C-o-l-o-m-b-i-a
Funny that a google "researcher" like yourself doin' all that researchin' and stuff on South America would make that mistake. More than once.

And it's Zorro, not Sorro. Unless you prefer to address me by my formal title: Don Diablo de la Vega.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #70
90. I spelled it right in post #50, so are you trying to discredit me for my typos?
Nice try, but you'll have to do better than that.

I make typos all the time, but I'm not hung up on them like some anal retentive jerk.

Thanks for pointing it out though..
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #90
97. the resort to attacks on typos and mispellings
Edited on Sun Aug-09-09 11:46 AM by subsuelo
is a pretty good indication of the level of knowledge the attacker has on a particular subject matter
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #97
104. It's a lot like the "Al Gore invented the Internet" attack
While at the same time calling the word "Misunderestimating" or "Nuke-yeh-lar" cute and quaint.

I've long ago given up trying to be perfect on anonymous blogs, as long as the facts are present, and someone with a modest amount of intelligence (And thats a hint) can see it's a typo, common mispelling, or transposition of a keystroke.

Most of the keys on my keyboard have the letters worn off from prolonged use as well, but it still works, and I don't see the need to replace it.

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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #70
112. The Devil of Vega?
Zorro was Don Diego de la Vega, in the stories.

Well, the fiction of your assumed persona is maybe more real than the fictions that you present as 'truth'.

Don Diablo! :rofl:
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #34
59. Your right, Chavez is hated down there.. By
Big Oil, the BioTech companies that can no longer sell their genetically modified untested garbage in Venezuela, and all the other Economic Hitment that are unable to penetrate his Oil funded march to social equality for the masses that do love him.

Unfortunately, the people that hate him are the rich 5%, and the rest of the 95% actually like him. He actually demands accountability from his Government, unlike the U.S. that lets the rich off with a verbal warning.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #20
77. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
32. LOL. Try it on someone else.
:hi:
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
53. You have links to prove that Zorro?
Or is that more of your one sided Hyperbole?
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #53
107. Prove a negative?
Ever taken a logic course?
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #15
75. Why do you make shit up?
Oh, sorry, I just checked your "profile".

Gender male
City Manhattan Beach
State CA
Hobby Educating pro-FARC, pro-Chavez, pro-Castro bullies

Shit, no agenda there...

Now we ALL know.

You must make it up as you go along since you don't have facts to go on...
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #75
108. The hissified drama queens accuse me of making things up
but when challenged to link to a post to support their assertions, they only get more hysterical.

So how about linking to a post where I "make shit up", ProudDud?
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #13
72. If we tried he would end up like the pres of s vietnam..
all splattered up. He is a drama queen using the US to whip up his base.
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clixtox Donating Member (941 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #72
81. Our machinations make it exceedingly easy to demonize the USA.

Which President of South Vietnam are you referring to that ended up, "all splattered up"?

Why refer to the much loved and respected Hugo Chavez, the twice elected President of a sovereign country, with a pejorative term like, "drama queen"?

Does that make your perspectives or opinions more relevant or appealing?

What motivates you to be so rude?

So transparently senseless?

Why...
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #81
93. The adoration for che jesus with out compromise
is pretty sickening. Hugo is a former coup leader and has made his family rich while in power. All fine and dandy, politicians do that stuff. Even here. But the god treatment he gets is silly. If we wanted him dead he would die.

When they run out of milk, or the price of oil drops he is quick to blame the US for the problems. He is playing to his base.

That would be Diem, who kennedy authorized killed by CIA. We got pretty good at killing and flipping people in Latin America. Pretty sure we could have removed mr chavez from this world if it was authorized in the US to be carried out.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #93
98. The president was at a meeting in the Cabinet Room of the White House
when Michael Forrestal rushed in with the report that Diem and Nhu were dead. He was stunned. Apparently he had never considered the possibility that it would end this way. A head of state who had been an American ally for years, a man Kennedy had personally known and supported, and a fellow Catholic on top of it all, was dead in the wake of an American backed coup.

"Kennedy leaped to his feet and rushed from the room with a look of shock and dismay on his face which I had never seen before," General Taylor later recalled. "He always insisted that Diem must never suffer more than exile, and he had been led to believe or had persuaded himself that a change in government could be carried out without bloodshed."

*****

Kennedy was disconsolate. The killings in Saigon, Forrestal later said, "troubled him really deeply...bothered him as a moral and religious matter, shook his confidence in the kind of advise he was getting from Vietnam." According to the historian Ellen Hammer, he was "shaken and depressed" to realize that "the first Catholic ever to become a Vietnamese chief of state was dead, assassinated as a direct result of a policy authorized by the first American Catholic president."

- Overthrow, by Stephen Kinzer


Your rare semi-coherent messages always reveal your outdated cold warrior mentality. They also show that you are nowhere near as well informed as you fancy yourself.

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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. Accounts vary, legacy of ashes
and others detail a coup where authorization was given to remove him from power using any means needed.

Presidents authorize the use of force that kills people. Still do.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #99
103. " Presidents authorize the use of force that kills people. Still do."
Of course. U.S. foreign policies of assassination and coup d'etat, instituted on behalf of corporate and political elites is constant, no matter which party holds sway; a clear indicator that political opposition in the United States is an illusion.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #98
113. That is what clued Kennedy in that the CIA was out of control.
After this he attempted to curtail their power.

We know what happened next.
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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #72
102. Oh, for the good old days of US-sponsored political assassinations.
Those were good times, eh, Pavulon?
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #102
105. Not my point. Playing to base
by claiming we tried to kill him is amusing. Typical political tactic. Considering how effective we became and killing them, I guess he is just super lucky. And no, assassination is not good foreign policy.
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 03:57 AM
Response to Original message
80. OK, bringing those TU-160 nuclear bombers...
to visit Venezuela and inviting them to build a base made me nervous, Hugo. So I asked the Americans to stop buy.
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steven johnson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 06:29 AM
Response to Original message
91. More propaganda from the Chavez fan club -- for this raging, megalomaniacal psychopath
So how are the Venezuelan security forces doing with their disinformation campaign?

I hear you never sleep. Me either.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #91
92. People have to stay up to be the first to see your fascinating posts.
Just think of how much good you could do for the oligarchs' side if you started posting factual information, in addition to your brilliant opinions. You'd have us all straightened out in a heartbeat.

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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #91
96. well, then. Where's your truth to the propaganda...?
I sure would love to see some. Hopefully you can do better than Zero, I mean, Zorro.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #91
101. Thank you for spewing the RW crap one hears from Faux and talk radio
Strangely enough, your description of Chavez as a "raging, megalomaniacal psychopath" seems to fit better people like Malkin, Coulter, Rush, Beck, Savage, and others of their ilk.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #101
106. Nail, meet head! Lol
That was a classic response Indi
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
94. Awesome!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-10-09 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
114. Deleted message
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