Boy, 13, Kills Brother, 10, With Dad's Gun

[RamboLiberal]

Source: CBS News

A 13-year-old South Carolina boy was charged Tuesday with shooting his 10-year-old brother to death after they argued over who got to sit in bed to watch a movie on a snow day, authorities said.

The boys' father, 44-year-old Gary Roberts, was charged with unlawful neglect because he left a loaded rifle leaning against the wall of a bedroom while running errands, Kershaw County Sheriff's Capt. David Thomley said.

"It wasn't in a closet, it didn't have a gun lock on it," Thomley said. "It was just sitting there, loaded."

Gayloyd Roberts, 10, was shot Monday afternoon in the neighborhood of small houses and mobile homes off U.S. 1 in the tiny town of Cassatt, about 35 miles northeast of Columbia.

Gary Roberts and his wife left their four children at home while they went to the county dump and Wal-Mart, Thomley said. School had been canceled due to the threat of winter weather.


Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/03/national/main4841887.shtml?tag=topHome;topStories

---

Stupid! Parents need to lock up either the guns or the ammo.

[tekisui]

1. They should charge the dad with homicide.

[L0oniX]

10. In Florida they would press charges against the parents.

I still think proper training can greatly reduce these sorts of accidents and the training should be mandatory for all gun owners with any type of gun. Property owners or home owners do have the right to protect their families and property with deadly force and owning a gun for that purpose is one of the most serious responsibilities one can take on. I was raised around guns and so were all my many cousins and 4 uncles with no accidents to this day.

[madmom]

22. Same here LOoniX, been around guns forever, it seems,as have my

cousins, our kids, and in some cases their kids,kids. The idea here is RESPONSIBILITY! Oh and yes I think the mother has as much blame as the father here.It's her house, her kids, also her responsibility the make sure all is right.

[ShortnFiery]

40. If the firearm is registered with the father, LEGALLY it's his responsibility. As a mother,

I will NOT judge another. I can only speak for myself. All firearms would be locked up in a GUN SAFE if they are not in use.

[madmom]

47. Legally the safety of the kids belongs to both the mother and the father. I also

am a mother, I also have guns in my house, I also see it as my responsibility to make sure they are not accessible to any body. If she knows there are firearms in that house it is her responsibility to the kids to make sure they can NOT get to them, period.

[ShortnFiery]

61. I wish you luck if you think that an adult who is NOT the registered owner of the weapon is charged

with any crime. Yes, she was negligent but the FATHER was the gun owner and is legally responsible.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

102. I doubt they register guns in South Carolina.

[ShortnFiery]

115. That MAY be part of the problem.

If they were properly REGISTERED, then just perhaps the adults would have felt a greater responsibility to keep close track of their fireams - if for no other reason they would be charged if it was stolen and later used in a gun crime?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

120. Very little chance of getting any group of elected officials to support registration....

in South Carolina.

David

[ShortnFiery]

124. As Cool Hand Luke would quip: "That doesn't make it right, Boss."

Just because the NRA has illogically and emotionally FREAKED many people into believing that the big bad ole government is just itching to take their firearms, does NOT make it true.

If you truly believe that the law is going to give a rat's ass about our LAWFUL firearms during a national emergency, then you have been brainwashed by the NRA and bat shit crazy "survivalists."

Regardless, nothing I could type will change your mind.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

125. Hurricane Katrina proved your assertion wrong.

I don't believe anyone wants to take my guns away. I do believe the AG wants to decide what kinds of firearms I can buy and probably would take some of them away if he thought he could get it done.

David

[ShortnFiery]

126. No, that was Xe/Blackwater NOT the law enforcement authorities.

But feel free to remain paranoid. :shrug:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

128. You have a link to that?

Most news agencies reported it as the NOPD and the National Guard. I'll be happy to look at your evidence though.

David

[ShortnFiery]

144. Point taken. If true, that action is very troubling but we must reach a balance

between "public saftety" as well as "privacy concerns."

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

146. I'm not really opposed to a gun registration.

Provided certain checks and balances were in place. I just don't think you'll get certain legislative bodies to vote for it.

David

[Tim01]

162. News video of govt orders to disarm all citizens post Katrina.

And soldiers and police going door to door confiscating weapons and removing people from their homes.

http://gunowners.org/abcnews.mpg

[benEzra]

182. No, the confiscators were California Highway Patrol and an Oklahoma Guard unit.

Blackwater et al may have done some confiscating of their own, but the officers caught on the ABC News video going door-to-door, cuffing and stuffing people with lawfully owned guns, stealing the guns, and beating up elderly ladies were CHP and Oklahoma Guard.

The comment by the Oklahoma Guard soldier, fresh back from Iraq, about possibly having to kill some civilians was positively chilling. There are good reasons for posse comitatus laws, IMO.

[FailureToCommunicate]

180. "What we have here... is a failure to communicate." (Sure miss Mr Newman)

[ManiacJoe]

175. Listing guns in a government database

is not going to have any effect on how idiots store their guns in their home.

As a rule, property owners do not get charged with crimes that other people commit with their stolen property.

[MadMaddie]

99. There is something else wrong don't you think?

Why would so many young kids think that picking up a weapon to solve a simple dispute is the right answer?

[L0oniX]

106. Parental failure. n/t

[reggie the dog]

69. you are out of your mind

the 13 year old is old enough to know better. I was trused with loaded guns once I was 12 or so and I never once used a gun to look tough or shot up anyone.

[ShortnFiery]

72. Ok Ok, Manslaughter then?

tongue-in-cheek :evilgrin:

[slackmaster]

2. Dumbass dad

I live alone, and I keep firearms unloaded and locked up.

[reggie the dog]

70. good for you

perhaps this guys kid is just an asshole or went crazy, lots of kids grow up around loaded guns and very few of them do stuff like this.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

3. That's horrible.

You can never be too careful with kids in the house. What happened to that family is just awful.

[onehandle]

4. Now we know where the next NRA convention will be held.

Or is one dead kid not enough to attract their loyal fetishists?

[tangent90]

8. Nothing is more pathetic than using a dead child to advance a political agenda.

:grr:

[tekisui]

11. How about using a dead child to hopefully prevent more dead children?

[tangent90]

25. What do you suggest?

Feel free to elaborate.

[tekisui]

26. This is an example of what could happen

if gun owners are not held to account for their weapons. He should suffer strict penalties, charged with homicide. If someone leaves loaded weapons accessible to children, and that weapon is discharged, the gun owner should be held responsible, just as if they had pulled the trigger.

[tangent90]

27. Of course he should be held responsible.

Just like someone who leaves a child in a hot car to die from heat stroke.

[tekisui]

28. Ok, I may have misunderstood your first post.

We seem to be on the same page.:hi:

[reggie the dog]

71. would you feel better if the kid had stabbed his brother

to death or bashed his skull in with a baseball bat? Many tools can be abused, hell he could have chainsawed his brother....

[tekisui]

77. Strawmen, everyone of those.

[reggie the dog]

87. why do you single out hunting rilfes

should all knives be locked up too???

Why just the rifle??? why not ask why the kid was willing to kill his brother instead?

[tekisui]

88. We can ask both those questions at the same time.

In both questions, the parent and owner of the gun are at fault.

It wouldn't have been as easy for him with a knife.

[reggie the dog]

89. what if it were rhubarb leaves

or bad mushrooms? easy or not why should the gun owner be charged???? Do you think ten and thirteen are too eary to hunt?????

[tekisui]

96. What do you have against protecting children from loaded firearms?

Simple question.

[reggie the dog]

149. nothing

i just dont support laws that say you have to lock up guns. parents should be free to choose.

[tekisui]

159. Then we will keep burying children killed by children or themselves

on accident and purpose.

[reggie the dog]

163. trigger locks would not stop that

I had students of mine shot outside their high school by kids who bought their guns from other kids.

[ManiacJoe]

176. Bad decisions often result in bad consequences.

[onehandle]

44. You mean like when the NRA went ahead with their convention nearby the Columbine tragedy?

I agree.

That gun industry fetishist group is pathetic.

[slackmaster]

46. Cancelling it would have done more harm than good

It would have caused financial harm to the city's economy, and would have done no good whatsoever for anyone.

[onehandle]

51. Yeah, I'm sure that's what they had in mind.

They thought, "Let's think of the local economy." And not, "There's no such thing as bad publicity, especially when it's free."

LOL! Yeah, the NRA is all about the common good.

[slackmaster]

56. Cancelling contracts certainly would have cost the NRA a lot of money

And one more time, it wouldn't have done any good.

[benEzra]

164. Ummm, no they didn't.

You mean like when the NRA went ahead with their convention nearby the Columbine tragedy?

Ummm, no, they didn't.

The NRA canceled everything that year but the business meeting that they were required to hold by New York state law (I think New York--I'm pretty sure that is the state in which the NRA is chartered). The law requires the NRA (and any other similar membership organization) to hold an annual meeting, and the members must by law be given 10 days' advance notice of change of venue.

In Bowling for Columbine, the portion of the speech where Heston says "As you know, we've cancelled the festivities, the fellowship we normally enjoy at our annual gatherings" was edited out to make it look as if NRA hadn't canceled them.

From the Rocky Mountain News:

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0422nra3.shtml

In a letter to NRA members Wednesday, President Charlton Heston and the group's executive vice president, Wayne LaPierre, said all seminars, workshops, luncheons, exhibits by gun makers and other vendors, and festivities are canceled.

All that's left is a members' reception with Rep. J.C. Watts, R-Okla., and the annual meeting, set for 10 a.m. May 1 in the Colorado Convention Center.

Under its bylaws and New York state law, the NRA must hold an annual meeting.

The NRA convention April 30-May 2 was expected to draw 22,000 members and give the city a $17.9 million economic boost.

"But the tragedy in Littleton last Tuesday calls upon us to take steps, along with dozens of other planned public events, to modify our schedule to show our profound sympathy and respect for the families and communities in the Denver area in their time of great loss," Heston and LaPierre wrote.

[onehandle]

181. You make it seem like it was a handful of core gun execs and Watts.

It was over 4,000 members.

So were its "bylaws" brought down from the mountain by Heston from God himself and could not be postponed?

No, they callously went on with their festival of death on the bodies of children.

Nice try.

"At 10 a.m., the protesters observed a moment of silence in memory of the victims. At that same moment, three blocks away at the Adam's Mark Hotel, approximately 4,000 NRA members filed past a small sign advertising a hotel service -- which read, "Here's Your Wake-Up Call" -- through phalanxes of cops and into the Plaza Ballroom. As the NRA convened its annual meeting inside, the protesters marched to the hotel and formed a human chain around its perimeter."

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/05/02/nra/index.html

[crim son]

5. Damn. Enough already. The father

should be jailed. Guns are deadly weapons that should not be left lying around the house. How freaking hard is that to understand?

[ginnyinWI]

7. there has to be a law on the books to throw at him.

Like "wreckless endangerment" or something! Just the suffering of losing a child isn't enough for these types, who are very good at blaming someone else for whatever they do.

[crim son]

16. Well, it's like the hunting accident laws here.

By law, a hunter is NOT ALLOWED TO SHOOT at a target unless s/he has ascertained beyond any doubt that the target is an animal. But what happens when somebody shoots and kills somebody? Nothing. There is always an excuse, always.

[happyslug]

41. In Pennsylvania such a hunting accident is Manslaughter.

And in most such cases there are handled one at a time and the killer serves time in Jail (and his right to go hunting is stripped from him, even after he gets out of jail). You do NOT hear of such cases for the papers do not find them exciting, not that such people get no punishment. Other states have similar rules, even Police Officers can be held responsible for what they bullets hit (Through that is mostly civil liability but the logic is the same, the person who fires a weapon is responsible for what ever the bullet hits and does damage to).

[struggle4progress]

36. SC doesn't have any law requiring guns to be stored where children can't access them:

the father is being charged only with neglect

[reggie the dog]

74. should not even be neglect

you go hunting with your kids, they seem responsable, then one son pulls some shit like this, how is this neglegence? this is a teenager letting down his whole family.

[struggle4progress]

97. " ... DSS took the children away from the family a few years ago after accusations of neglect ..."

Wednesday, Mar. 04, 2009
Grandmother of SC boy killed: Family is mourning
By JEFFREY COLLINS - Associated Press Writer
http://www.thesunnews.com/135/story/806687.html
... The family's other three children have been taken into protective custody by the South Carolina Department of Social Services ... Arrest records show Gary Roberts was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in Kershaw County in 1993. Authorities couldn't immediately be reached for details on that incident, including whether Roberts could legally have the rifle used in Monday's shooting. The records from the State Law Enforcement Division also show Roberts was charged as a felon in possession of a firearm and with pointing a gun at someone in 2001, but neither charge was prosecuted ... DSS took the children away from the family a few years ago after accusations of neglect. Eddins said the parents couldn't pay the power bill, but were able to get things back together ... http://www.thesunnews.com/135/story/806687.html

"they seem responsable ... how is this neglegence?" :eyes:

[kskiska]

137. The kid had been in foster care

(snip)

Thomley said the father told investigators he had the gun out to shoot at stray dogs who might threaten his family.

"That's no excuse. We have animal control. He could have just called them," Thomley said.

The enormity of what happened has started to sink in for the teen, but not his parents, the sheriff's investigator said. The mother hasn't been charged because Gary Roberts had the gun last.

"The most disturbing thing is I haven't seen any remorse from the father and the mother," Thomley said.

CBS station WLTX in Columbia spoke to Roberts former foster mother, who asked to remain anonymous.

"After having him for so long, we mourned him leaving our house, and that was rough, but this...I...unimaginable," the woman told WLTX. "I took him to his first day of kindergarten, his first tooth he lost with us," she said. "He learned to ride a bike while he was at our house, he learned to swim.
"He did everything with our family," she said. "He was treated just like I'd given birth to him. There was no difference."

[reggie the dog]

73. what about knives????

really rifles are tools used to hunt.

[crim son]

169. I'd be interested to see the statistics:

Death by knife in the home of the knifeowner vs. death by shooting in the home of the gunowner. You may be on to something.

[xchrom]

6. recommend

[OnyxCollie]

9. If the 10 year old was armed, he could have defended himself!

:hide:

[CitizenPatriot]

14. oh, yeah -- that's coming up

and this from the state where they take loaded weapons to walmart.

sorry, but these people need to be locked up. loaded weapon sitting out with children in the house???????? and yet, they fight to carry loaded weapons to the local bar.

Where's the personal responsibility? which is, ironically, what conservatives (pro-gun) talk about non-stop "pull yourself up by your bootstaps" "take responsibility" and then when it comes to loaded weapons in the house...

I just don't get it.

[burythehatchet]

15. The 10 year old lobby should be demanding the right to carry. Oh wait, I think

they might already have that right. What was that 10 year old thinking, not having a weapon to defend himself. Idiot.

[crim son]

17. Oh don't you go there.

:rofl:

[flvegan]

30. Concealed Carry Permits should be issued along with birth certificates.

I'm going to invent the diaper holster.

[Lorien]

101. You'll be a gazillionaire!

You'll sell millions in Florida and Texas alone!

Of course, you will have to follow it up with the incubator holster. I'm sure that both will also sell well in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

[onehandle]

45. He must have been one of those anti-gun hippies. nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

103. Mock the dead child, classy. Your parents must be proud.

[OnyxCollie]

107. They are.

I was mocking gun advocates.

Tell your parents I'm sorry.

Dolt.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

108. They can't be.

[Lance_Boyle]

12. why is only the father charged?

"Gary Roberts and his wife left their four children at home" yet only Gary Roberts is charged. "The mother hasn't been charged because Gary Roberts had the gun last." OK, the gun was leaning against a wall in the home where both parents were at first present, and then not present. They both "had the gun last" in THEIR home, leaning against THEIR wall. 2 responsible adults failed at their responsibility to secure a firearm in their home, and only one is charged. Seems not right to me.

[ShortnFiery]

18. I'd bet money that "the rifle" was registered by the father. It was HIS firearm. No, mom should

not be charged. However, hindsight being 20 - 20, she should have insisted that he lock all weapons in a GUN SAFE. ... well duh! If you're too lazy to buy trigger locks and/or unload these weapons, then A SAFE is your best bet to prevent such tragedies. :shrug:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

104. I doubt they register guns in South Carolina.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Shell Beau]

19. What a terribly sad story. One that could have been prevented.

[raccoon]

20. Something was dead up the creek about this family. From same article:

"The most disturbing thing is I haven't seen any remorse from the father and the mother," Thomley said.

CBS station WLTX in Columbia spoke to Roberts former foster mother, who asked to remain anonymous.

"After having him for so long, we mourned him leaving our house, and that was rough, but this...I...unimaginable," the woman told WLTX. "I took him to his first day of kindergarten, his first tooth he lost with us," she said. "He learned to ride a bike while he was at our house, he learned to swim.
"He did everything with our family," she said. "He was treated just like I'd given birth to him. There was no difference."

[ogneopasno]

24. So sad. Those poor boys, and that poor foster mom. What a complete nightmare.

[KittyWampus]

33. Pointing everyone up to your post. Something ain't right. Why were they in foster care beforehand?

Was it even the 13 year old or is he taking the blame for the father?

[deutsey]

21. This depresses the hell out of me.

:evilfrown:

[regnaD kciN]

23. So, when do they decide...

...to charge the 13-year-old as an adult, and lock him up in maximum security for the rest of his life?

You know it's coming.

[reggie the dog]

76. what would you do?

turn a murder loose again???? Someone that would kill their own ten year old brother should not be let out of jail.

[8 track mind]

29. way to go Dad!

Good job! I mean who in their right mind would have ever thought that kids might use a handgun that has no locks on it or it's easy to get to? Wow! :sarcasm:


Now whats going to happen with the 13 year old. Are we going to throw him under the jail for the rest of his life? He's 13 and not capable of making a rational decision. He now has to live the rest of his life seeing that moment playing out in his mind. I say charge the parents with criminal neglect.

[reggie the dog]

78. someone who taught their kids how to shoot and hunt

you would be amazed to find out just how many houses in South Carolina, or many other rural parts of the USA, have loaded shotguns and rifles at easy access, kids or not.

[8 track mind]

111. oh i know, grew up in rural Texas myself

I've seen some seriously idiotic things with fire arms.

[TheWraith]

31. What a dumb, dumb motherfucker.

Pardon my language, but anybody who leaves a loaded rifle lying around kids that age is so fucking stupid that they need to be beaten senseless with their own fucking shoes.

[8 track mind]

32. they probably don't wear any. n/t

[slackmaster]

35. As one of the most vocal proponents of the right to keep and bear arms on DU

I agree with you.

[TheWraith]

38. Hell, I own guns myself, a shotgun and just bought a rifle.

And the first thing any sane or rational person knows is the only time you even consider leaving a gun around is if EVERYONE who might be near it is a responsible adult and knows how to handle it.

[ShortnFiery]

54. Amen. My father had dozens of guns and they all were locked up in "Gun Cabinets."

That was during the 70s. We have ALL our firearms in a full bodied Gun Safe. That way no unauthorized person, to include an teenager who is distraught, will have access to do something STUPID in one moment of panic.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

140. Did those gun cabinets have glass?

Did your dad teach you how to handle guns safely?

David

[Javaman]

34. poor little kids.

one lost a brother and the other lost his life.

What's worse. In a house that keeps guns, a kid of 13 should have known about guns and gun safety.

so much stupidity to end two lives so early.

[kiva]

37. Some of the comments are just as scary as the story:

I don't think the mom and dad should have "remorse"--they, like many American parents, leave guns lying around all of the time--probably had for years...as for charging the dad--death of a child is punishment enough--loss of another child is even more punishment--no need to destroy the rest of the family even further.

This was a tragic event--which could have been just as devastating but more grisly, if no gun was used and the older brother got a knife or hammer and bashed his brothers head in. Same result--a true tragedy--condolences to the family. Please lock the guns up--and perhaps--don't let your young kids know where it is.

:wtf: Many American parents just leave loaded guns lying around? And it's a good thing there was a gun, otherwise this kid would have beat his brother to death with a hammer?

[ShortnFiery]

39. That's the point. Using a knife or hammer is "more personal" and would be much LESS likely

an outcome with regard to a fight between brothers.

I have two much older brothers who are only 11 months apart. I remember them fist fighting as teenagers. My mother said that one had knocked the other's front tooth out. However, that's as far as it went. ONCE you make the first blows and that devastates, but not deadly, the emotion and REALITY of causing true harm to another kicks in and the violence stops. To get truly "ID" : such conflicts are a part of what can be termed "PACK mentality" mindset between brothers ... they're establishing their dominance but do not desire to KILL the other.

It's so damn EASY to kill with rifles, but even EASIER to point and shoot a handgun that firearms should ALL have trigger locks or they should be stored away in a locked GUN SAFE.

[kiva]

42. Exactly.

I suppose there's a small chance this kid really wanted to kill his brother, but it's far more likely this was the sort of fight that might have ended in a bloody nose if not for *stupid* parents.

[slackmaster]

50. My brother and I fought constantly when we were kids

We both knew very well where the shotgun, the rifle, and the ammunition for both was kept. It was never locked up.

Somehow we avoided murdering each other. One day, when I was 15 and he was 11, I told him I was tired of getting into trouble all the time. I asked if he felt the same way, and if we could agree to stop fighting.

That was 1973. We haven't had any conflict with each other since then.

[ShortnFiery]

52. You were "the exception"

I grew up in a small town of 600 people (at most). One of my cousins committed suicide via handgun. We grieve for his loss because we know that if he would have had more time and a less lethal "way out" of his adolescent pain, he probably would be with us now.

I suppose like bike helmets some "hard corps" people who don't even believe that guns should be registered and TRACKED believe TEENAGE suicide via hangun is just Natural Selection, i.e., thinning the herd. :(

[slackmaster]

55. If we were really the exception, a whole lot more kids would be dying

I suppose like bike helmets some "hard corps" people who don't even believe that guns should be registered and TRACKED believe TEENAGE suicide via hangun is just Natural Selection, i.e., thinning the herd.

I suppose it's normal to try to conflate issues to fit some neat stereotype.

I always wear a helmet when I ride a bike, but gun registration would be an unconstitutional invasion of privacy and would provide groundwork for potential infringements on the right to keep and bear arms.

And I am a strong believer in keeping firearms secure.

[ShortnFiery]

57. A lot of "accidents" did occur in our small town. I guess it was just "a rite of passage."

Unconstitutional to register and track firearms? NO WAY!

Nobody is arguing with OUR RIGHT (I own rifles and shotguns) to own firearms but they should be TRACKED.

IMNSHO, anyone who is not bat shit nuts survivalist a la Bo Gritz league would deny such registration.

If the balloon goes up there won't be a Blackwater or Xe to come confiscate our firearms.

Yes Sir, the Government has the right TO REGISTER & TRACK FIREARMS. :thumbsup:

I know you are a law abiding USA citizen. The 2nd Amendment says NOTHING about the registration and tracking of firearms.

[slackmaster]

59. Please show me what part of the Constitution would empower the federal government

To register and track all firearms.

Yes Sir, the Government has the right TO REGISTER & TRACK FIREARMS.

Governments have powers. Only people have rights.

BTW - There were 75 accidental shooting deaths of kids under 15 in the USA in 2005. If your town had lots of them, it's an aberration.

[ShortnFiery]

60. They are "a right" but they are also DEADLY WEAPONS. Based on "the common welfare"

YES, ABSOLUTELY = based on public safety, all firearms should be registered and tracked. That's NOT violating OUR RIGHTS as gun owners one iota.

[slackmaster]

62. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that

But let me tell you one thing - National gun registration would be a suicide pill for any political party that advocated it. What might go over where you live would be extremely unpopular in a lot of other places.

[ShortnFiery]

63. It's time to cease and desist with this "survivalist scenario" type thinking. I understand the fear

but the fear is wholly unwarranted. If we have a national emergency, OUR GOVERNMENT will have it's hands full just maintaining order. The fact that people own firearms is not a negative for "a duly elected government."

Now, with Bush as our Unitary Executive, then yes, there was "a risk" because IMO he STOLE both elections.

Yes, with genuine respect, I know what I say will not come to fruition but please remember, "the government" is not necessarily the enemy. :hi:

[slackmaster]

64. It sounds like you're misattributing "survivalist" thinking to someone who does not indulge in it

I just want my privacy and property rights respected.

[ShortnFiery]

67. OK, point taken. Then I'd suggest that "a lethal weapon" does not grant A RIGHT to privacy.

Ownership? Yes

Privacy from Tracking and Registration? No

What are you afraid of?

Our medical records (will be - mine is with the Navy) and our SSN are centralized with the Government, what do you FEAR from law enforcement having a way to track firearms?

[slackmaster]

75. Once again you misattribute something, this time fear, but I will tell you my concern

I have a substantial amount of my retirement savings invested in collectable firearms. What I own is confidential financial information. Much of what I own was acquired through interstate commerce, exercising the privileges granted under my Federal Firearms License.

One of the conditions of my FFL is that I personally keep a record book of my acquisitions and dispositions. I have to be able to present that to federal inspectors on short notice, and make that part of my collection available for inspection. The federal government does have the power to do that sort of thing under the current interpretation of the Interstate Commerce Clause. It does not have the power to require individuals to disclose private, personal property or to intervene in the non-commercial, intrastate resale of a piece of personal property. (The ICC power HAS been exercised to regulate and tax certain kinds of weapons like machine guns as war materials - read up on the National Firearms Act if you are interested.) As stated in the Tenth Amendment, powers that are not granted to the federal government belong to the states or to the people.

I think I've given up enough liberty in exchange for the privilege of bypassing a lot of my state's gun control laws. That license has saved me thousands of dollars over the last four years. OTOH my gun collection is the only part of my investment portfolio that has been completely immune from the current financial downturn. In fact, it's been counter-cyclical.

I've followed the rules and kept up my parts of the bargain. I will not tolerate politicians trying to change the rules on me in the middle of the game.

[ShortnFiery]

81. OK, there could be streamlining for persons such as yourself (collectors).

However, you would agree that IF one of your firearms was stolen and used in a MURDER, you would want law enforcement to have the capability of tracking on that weapon?

Your case is "an outlier" because most people who own firearms are not acquiring "a stockpile." Well other than The Survivalists. That is why I was curious as to why you were so resistant to the SIMPLE aspect of registration.

No, I don't think that it would be a large intrusion on even your privacy to have your firearm RECORDS accessible to local law enforcement.

I still do not understand your profound concern. :shrug:

[slackmaster]

84. Law enforcement already does have the power and the ability to trace weapons

They are serialized as required by the Gun Control Act of 1968, which also created the licensing system for dealers and ended direct mail-order sales to non-licensees. Manufacturers and importers have to keep permanent records of dealers and collectors to whom they are shipped. Dealers make paper records of the person who buys the guns at retail, so the original buyer of any gun manufactured since 1968 can be quickly determined.

After that, it's no longer a federal issue. California has registration for handguns, so police can locate the most recent lawful owner quickly. In states that don't have registration, the police have to use a little shoe leather to trace guns. (BTW - Federal law prohibits ANY PERSON from selling any firearm to a person who is prohibited from buying one.)

That is why I was curious as to why you were so resistant to the SIMPLE aspect of registration.

I look at it this way: Registration does not necessarily lead to confiscation. But in the absence of registration, confiscation becomes far more difficult.

I don't have much trust in the people who are in power now. The people who will be in power in the future are completely unpredictable.

[ShortnFiery]

90. Understood. But having STATE access database, especially on hand guns is not Unconstitutional.

Again, I'm at a loss for why you would resist you State Authorities being able to "solve GUN related crimes" in a fast and efficient manner.

If there is a NATIONAL EMERGENCY, the local law enforcement will be busy with *many other tasks* that would make confiscating LEGAL gun owners firearms on a far back burner ... if not inappropriate.

WHY? Because the RIGHT to OWN firearms is YOURS as a law-abiding USA Citizen.

I'm at a loss and guess we'll "agree to disagree"

[slackmaster]

98. I never said I was against states having gun registration

Or that it was unconstitutional. I think you haven't read carefully what I have written.

[TheWraith]

148. Okay, stop right there. "What are you afraid of?"

Well, if you're not doing anything wrong, why would you object to having your phone calls and internet access monitored? Why would you object to having video cameras in your house? After all, if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to fear, right?

That's crap, and anybody aught to be able to recognize it. The danger with ANY kind of government-sponsored intrusion into the realm of privacy is that it doesn't stop there. Your analogies are off--a social security number identifies a service provided by the government, not a means of tracking.

When you make the implicit assumption that the government has the power to track guns as a threat to the public, then you're also saying that the government has the right to tag anyone who it so deems a "threat" to the public. That's the same reasoning that leads to warrantless wiretapping, illegal surveilance, and all those other lovely things.

[reggie the dog]

83. how many gangsters, rapists, robbers and murders

legally buy their guns much less register them. Now law abiding folks, they will be registered. That is a bs system in my opinion.

[ShortnFiery]

91. No, many firearms are NOT reported stolen. A database would allow law enforcement to solve

gun related crimes in short order - or at least trace the weapon to the last LEGAL owner.

What? Don't you think that you should TRACK on your firearms and, if the worst happened, report them stolen a.s.a.p.?

[ManiacJoe]

100. What is wrong with the current tracing system?

[reggie the dog]

82. last year it was 5 to 4

in the Supreme Court in declaring the city of Washington DC's handgun ban unconstitutional but it upheld handgun registration. I do not like registration either as it makes it too easy to collect them later.

[ShortnFiery]

92. "collect them later?!" WTF! It's your Constitutional Right - what are you so damn afraid of?

If the worst happens, WE ALL are going to have a hell of a lot more to worry about than "the authorities" confiscating OUR LEGAL FIREARMS. :crazy:

[reggie the dog]

150. la resistance

here in France was just a bunch of average people sniping at the Nazis and their allies. It is amazing what an armed citizenry can do against a totalitarian regime.

[reggie the dog]

80. you, my dad

my uncles and aunts, some of my cousins, me sometimes, and none of us shot up our families....

[ShortnFiery]

93. Congrats. Words can not describe "the grief" - ongoing - when it happens to one's

extended family. However, I don't think we are all that RARE. :(

[reggie the dog]

79. many parents do at some time or another

if you go hunting with your kids you trust them to carry and shoot loaded rilfes at deer and are in the woods with them so it is an important trust. After that you may feel confident enough to not lock the guns around them because they respect guns and would only use it against a robber while you were gone....

[Duer 157099]

43. The dad sure is a dumbass, but not because he didn't secure the gun

It's because he somehow forgot to teach his 13-year-old that killing people is wrong!

Access to a weapon is only a small part of the picture.

[ShortnFiery]

53. Anyone who has ever RAISED a child through their teen years realize that those years

are very emotionally difficult and often fraught with "all or nothing thinking." No, guns should be secured and not accessible to those under the age of 18 without their Guardian's permission. That's not "nanny state" but just PURE common sense.

[Butch350]

48. I think the real issue is being missed here!

Why in the world would someone kill their brother over a sitting spot on the bed? Holy pumped up jesus palomino, what are our
children turning into? Where is our society headed? Look at what's going on across the nation in just polictics alone!

[ShortnFiery]

58. It's the "no brainer" of pulling a trigger that killed his little brother and the immaturity ...

of youth to NOT PAUSE to think his actions through. That's why the high rate and number ONE means of suicide for law-enforcement officers is via HANDGUNS. And these are men and women *like you and I.* :scared: If mature adults who become depressed can "too easily" commit suicide, it's just IMO CRIMINAL to leave a loaded firearm around a child.

[superconnected]

49. Poor family! Poor kids who died.

The dad isn't the sharpest but gee, this is a pretty big price to pay for that gross negligence.

[anonymous171]

65. WHO STORES A LOADED GUN OUT IN THE OPEN!?

[reggie the dog]

85. millions of people in the USA

they just teach their kids what guns are. Back in the sixties my uncles used to carry their rifles to high school the days they had marksmenship competitions and they even took their rifles in their carry on when they flew to Alaska to go hunting.

[ShortnFiery]

94. Yeah, just teach them. No worries if TEENS have emotional turmoil or have some alcohol

We all know TEENS don't drink. :eyes: Yes, teens are as MATURE as adults and should be trusted, without monitoring, with loaded handguns. :crazy:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

110. Wow that was dishonest.

Who said anything about giving teenagers loaded handguns without supervision?

David

[ShortnFiery]

112. Read the comments of the poster I responded to ... VERY HONEST.

"they just teach their kids what guns are ..." :eyes:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

117. He never mentioned handguns. He never said anything about no supervision.

[ShortnFiery]

129. You're splitting hairs. We know that what "Just teach the kids ..." means.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

131. No you assumed you knew what he meant. I teach little kids what to do if they find a lighter..

that doesn't mean I'm encouraging them to smoke.

David

[ShortnFiery]

134. IF you read the post of the person he responded to ... it's about Leaving loaded guns out in the ...

open. Believe it or not, if you're REALLY motivated you can commit suicide with a shotgun or rifle too. LOADED GUNS was the topic.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

138. I've only pronounced a couple of dozen people dead from GSWs. Thanks for the condescension though.

I took his statement to mean that he was taught about gun safety, things like always treat guns like they are loaded, never point a gun at anything you don't want to kill, don't ever touch a gun unless an adult is their supervising you doing it. I'm fairly certain he wasn't saying leave guns out all the time when you have teenagers and their friends in the house when you aren't home.

David

[ShortnFiery]

142. I respect your background. However, with a loaded gun left out in the open ...

IMO never say "never." :shrug:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

145. Certainly someone could randomly pick my house that always has at least one car in the driveway...

and is located on a very visible corner lot. That same person could kick in my front door, get passed my 5 large, loud dogs and then search my house for weapons and possibly find them where I have them hidden from view. They might find them before someone notices something wrong and calls the police. If that ever happens I will make sure I call the cops immediately.

David

[reggie the dog]

152. exactly

"things like always treat guns like they are loaded, never point a gun at anything you don't want to kill, don't ever touch a gun unless an adult is their supervising you doing it. I'm fairly certain he wasn't saying leave guns out all the time when you have teenagers and their friends in the house when you aren't home."

the exception was if I were going out into the wilds of the Rocky mountains with frineds, then we could have guns. His friends son was older and carried the rifle, I got a 45 we were 12 and 14 and knew not to point them at things unless we were going to kill them, not to kill people unless they were trying to rape, kidnapp, or kill you, and to always assume that a guns was loaded. Only thing is at their cabin, where they lived year round, the rifle and bullets were in easy access, but his son had gone hunting with him since he was 10 or so and he trusted his son not to abuse the tools they used to eat. Perhaps this is something lots of city people just do not get, but I think a lot of rural mountain people do.

[reggie the dog]

151. right

Teach the kids that guns are tools which can be deadly dangerous if not used properly. Teach kids how to hunt. And yes pistols for target shooting. When I was 12 my father would let me spend my nights camping alone with another 14 year old out at lakes in rural Montana and he gave me a 45 and a box of bullets in case we had to scare off a bear. He told us not to shoot the bear or the wolves, but shoot a warning shot to try to scare them. the box of bullets was for moonlight target shooting.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

105. I do.

[ShortnFiery]

119. Then may The Good Lord help you if you ever leave your residence unlocked and a child comes

across your firearms. Forget CHILDREN, how would you feel if your firearm, being out in the open, was stolen and later used in a gun crime? ... a felony murder?

Firearms belong in safes or at the very least have them equipped with trigger locks. :shrug:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

122. Why in the hell would I put trigger locks on my guns?

I think I have been sufficiently diligent in ensuring that my home is not broken into.

David

[ShortnFiery]

132. OK then. You're sure that young children can not wander upon your loaded firearm(s).

Understood. Have a good evening. :hi:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

135. Absolutely positive of it.

Have a nice night. :toast:

David

[reggie the dog]

153. if someone steals my shit

it is no longer my responsability.

[reggie the dog]

154. if your gun is locked

and you wake up to hear a door or window being bashed in, you may well die fumbling for your keys whereas the person with the loaded shotgun near their bed would just jump up and go for it.

[ConcernedCanuk]

66. OMG - there is just gonna be so much pain - especially for the older sister

.
.
.

From the posted article:

Gayloyd and his 13-year-old brother argued over the seating arrangement for watching the movie, but their 15-year-old sister thought she'd broken up the fight and left the room.
_______________________________________________________________

I am at a loss for words,

[RamboLiberal]

68. Then we have another 13 year old who killed his 16 year old brother

To take over his drug business!

HYANNIS, Mass. — Like most boys, 13-year-old Mykel Mendes looked up to his big brother, Jordan. The two rode bikes together, did yard work together and hung out together. But when it came to the family business _ a major drug ring _ Mykel did not want to share, police say.

Mykel, a 7th grader, is now accused of masterminding the slaying of his 16-year-old half-brother so he could take over the drug operation _ one police say they inherited from their father, who is in prison for running one of the biggest cocaine rings on Cape Cod.

Jordan was found shot, stabbed 27 times and dumped into a pit, where his body was torched. Another 13-year-old friend and a 20-year-old cousin also are charged with murder.

The killing has shaken the normal quiet of winter on Cape Cod, the summer tourist destination known for its beautiful beaches, salt water taffy and famous residents. Jordan Mendes lived just a few miles from the Kennedy compound in Hyannis Port.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/03/mykel-mendes-killed-broth_n_171517.html


Paula Carberry holds a photo of her son Jordan Mendes, 16, while standing in his room at her Hyannis, Mass., home Thursday, Jan. 29, 2009. Mendes' smoldering body was found by Carberry on Dec. 16, 2008 after he had been shot, stabbed and set on fire. (AP Photo/Stephan Savoia)

[depakid]

86. and another 13-Year old boy shot in the neck

The two boys, both 13-years old and from the Mt. Angel area, told investigators they were walking near the Abiqua River target practicing with a .22 caliber rifle when the accident happened.

Lorance says the shot happened when one boy saw a bird and raised the weapon to shoot at it.

"According to both boys, the weapon got caught in his coat and discharged, striking the victim in the neck. One of the boys had a cell phone with him and called 9-1-1."

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/march032009/boy_shot_3-3-09.php

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

109. Another rare occurrence.

[ShortnFiery]

113. ... and IF more prevalent than surmised, it's just part of "thinning the herd."

:(

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

114. Sorry you feel that way.

[ShortnFiery]

116. I thought it was clear but I should have included this ...

:sarcasm:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

118. Okay you had me worried about your mental state there for a minute.

[ShortnFiery]

121. I'm not worried about your mental state, but I'm concerned that your views regarding

gun storage are "not sound" ... please consider using trigger locks or a gun safe?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

123. I can't afford a gun safe, I also have no room for one. Trigger locks would be pointless.

[ShortnFiery]

127. Well, then I guess you choose to continue to "live on the edge"

It's DANGEROUS to leave firearms out in the open. IF you forget and a young child is allowed in your home ... well, I hope you always remain vigilant and/or rethink your money priorites and buy that gun safe. :shrug:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

130. I don't allow children in my home.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

133. If I buy a gun safe how will I buy the assault rifle I want?

[ShortnFiery]

136. OK, now you're just behaving in a silly and flippant manner. :P

Have a good night. :hi:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

139. Come now, surely you can take a joke.

Besides I already own an assault weapon.

David

[ShortnFiery]

141. Yes, I can take a joke.

Personally, I love to own my own Cal .50 and mount it on my roof but it ain't gonna happen in this lifetime. :evilgrin:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

143. Might hit the lottery.

[reggie the dog]

156. lmao

[reggie the dog]

155. do you lock your knives up?

[depakid]

147. Whoa- am I hearing you say that a couple of 13 year olds ought to be walking about

shooting willy nilly at.... whatever?

Birds? Targets? paper plates on trees?

[reggie the dog]

157. sure, we grew up doing that in my family

I am 30 now, I grew up doing just that with my cousins, brother dad, uncles and some aunts. Also did it with friends who were taught gun safety. It prepares you for later hunting or soldiering if so needed.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

165. How in the hell could you possibly misconstrue "another rare occurence" to mean that?

[depakid]

166. Apparently- some think that's still acceptable

like we're all living on the frontier.

And some will say it's "only" a 22.

I think you realize how far bullets travel. Not sure many 13 year olds have an accurate conception of that.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

167. Accidental shootings are rare occurences, that was my one and only point.

[depakid]

168. I guess that depends on the definitions

I can run a search on google news and find you an accidental shooting pretty much any time across America.

12 year old dead from accidental gunshot
March 4, 2009

Investigators are trying to figure out exactly what happened moments before a 12-year-old boy was shot and killed in his own home.

Police first got the call at about 2:00 on Tuesday afternoon to go to the home on Everett Street in Homer. The Homer Village Police are literally less than half a mile from the home where the shooting took place, but by the time they arrived, they were already too late.

http://www.wwmt.com/articles/year_1359844___article.html/old_investigators.html
--------

Are they as common as deaths from car accidents? Of course not- but like car accidents- I'd like to see a whole lot less of them.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

170. 173 children died from unintentional gunshot wounds in 2005.

Unintentional shootings doesn't make that top 10 for any age group on Causes of Unintentional Injuries. Everyone would like to see all of these accidental deaths and injuries reduced regardless of the cause of the injury or death.

David

[depakid]

171. If I'm reading the argument right- you're saying that we ought to be reducing firearms injuries?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

172. Of course we should, while respecting the Constitution of course.

I'd be happy to entertain ideas on how we might accomplish that. Since the majority of these deaths and injuries occur between the ages of 5 and 14, it seems that firearms education could go a long way toward preventing them. Fire safety programs have proven remarkably effective for the same age groups and lower.

David

[depakid]

173. Then- odd as it seems -you and I are on the same page

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

174. I don't believe you would find a single "gun nut" here that disagrees.

[carlyhippy]

95. The child will have to live the rest of his life knowing he killed his brother

Parents who own guns should be responsible if they have loaded weapons in reach of their children. We had guns in our home and not a single bullet or shell was in our home, and the guns were locked up anyway. A child's life is just too precious, I cannot understand why parents do not see this!

[reggie the dog]

158. why have guns with no bullets???

that defeats the point of having a gun.

[carlyhippy]

161. They were given to us by family members

We really have no use for them at all, but we inherited them.

[Belial]

160. Sad.. anyway you look at it..

[Xenotime]

177. Gun fundies will spin this saying he had a "right" to defend himself.

Give me a fucking break. Lock up the whole damn family.

[slackmaster]

178. Amazingly enough, NOT ONE PERSON has done that

Except for anti-gun weenies posting strawman arguments.

[Raskolnik]

179. Could you point out an example of someone saying that?

Thanks.

[CTLawGuy]

183. unlawful neglect?

try involuntary manslaughter, which is a more fitting charge.