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Israel moves forward and sends more troops to Gaza

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DogPoundPup (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 06:24 PM
Original message
Israel moves forward and sends more troops to Gaza
Source: Yahoo / AP

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israel sent more troops to the Gaza border Wednesday, rapidly moving forward with preparations for a possible ground offensive as the next stage of its military assault on the coastal territory's Hamas rulers. Israel rebuffed calls by world leaders for a truce, and Hamas also was cold to a cease-fire.

Instead, both intensified their fire. Israel bombed a mosque that it said was used to store rockets as well as vital smuggling tunnels along the Egyptian border, and the Islamic militants hammered southern Israeli cities with about 60 rockets.

Israeli troops trudged between dozens of tanks in muddy, rain-sodden fields outside Gaza, assembling equipment, cleaning weapons and scrubbing out tank barrels. Their commanders moved forward with preparations for a ground operation, said an Israeli defense official who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the information.

The U.N. Security Council scheduled emergency consultations Wednesday night to discuss an Arab request for a legally binding and enforceable resolution to ensure an immediate cease-fire in Gaza. Egyptian Ambassador Maged Abdelaziz said he was on instructions from Arab League foreign ministers who met in Cairo.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081231/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_i...
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   Replies to this thread
   "Hamas also was cold to a cease-fire"  halo experiment   Dec-31-08 06:27 PM   #1 
   Link?  GoesTo11   Dec-31-08 06:44 PM   #3 
   Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-31-08 06:54 PM   #6 
      Where is the link to Hamas going to the UN Security Council to ask for a truce? nt  oberliner   Dec-31-08 07:29 PM   #10 
      They asked the council to urge leaders to help  halo experiment   Dec-31-08 08:05 PM   #13 
         This doesn't say anything about them asking the council anything.  GoesTo11   Dec-31-08 09:04 PM   #14 
            Well considering they aren't bombing cities  halo experiment   Dec-31-08 11:08 PM   #19 
               Hamas rocket reaches Beersheba  oberliner   Jan-01-09 12:30 AM   #22 
               Is a rocket that can kill at max 3 people comparable to a GBU-39?  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 03:27 PM   #30 
               Chicken and egg  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 03:28 PM   #32 
               Too bad Hamas was retaliating  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 03:30 PM   #35 
               No they shot them the entire time  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 03:32 PM   #37 
                  Here are some things to look up:  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 03:42 PM   #40 
                     The point is that Hamas continues to launch rockets at Israeli cities  oberliner   Jan-01-09 04:32 PM   #93 
                     I didn't claim rocket fire wasn't happen, read again  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:36 PM   #96 
                        Here's what you wrote:  oberliner   Jan-01-09 04:52 PM   #117 
                     The tunnel raid is a fact, no one disputes that, but there were prior violations by  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:53 PM   #119 
               There is no "i" in ordnance (meaning weapons)  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:51 PM   #115 
                  Systemic Failure of firefox spellcecker  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:52 PM   #118 
                     Ordinance is a law, Ordnance is a bomb  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:53 PM   #121 
                        Broke both..  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 05:01 PM   #124 
               Yes...the GBU was aimed at a military target the Grads at civilians  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:49 PM   #112 
               How do we know it was a Hamas rocket?  Bragi   Jan-01-09 08:52 PM   #132 
                  They claim it. when they killed  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 09:27 PM   #136 
               That is not for lack of trying  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 03:16 PM   #29 
                  Long range attacks lol  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 03:28 PM   #31 
                     Not for lack of trying.  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 03:30 PM   #36 
                        Actually the suicide bombers have nothing to do with Hamas  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 03:32 PM   #38 
                           The sure did, shot rockets the entire term of the hudna  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 03:35 PM   #39 
                              Suicide bombers and shooting rockets aren't the same thing  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 03:44 PM   #41 
                                 They were both Hamas sponsored  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 03:47 PM   #42 
                                 Credited by the Israeli government  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 03:51 PM   #44 
                                    Guess hamas failed stats then  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 03:54 PM   #48 
                                    But you just said the rocket fire couldnt be aimed?  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 03:55 PM   #50 
                                       It cant, hence the two dead kids hamas killed in own goal  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 03:57 PM   #55 
                                       And those dropping Bunker Busters on Mosques in Gaza,  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 03:58 PM   #56 
                                       You are pimping your SIDE  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:04 PM   #60 
                                       Did you see the secondary explosions on the You Tube video?  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-02-09 03:01 PM   #153 
                                       Rockets can be aimed  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 07:41 PM   #129 
                                    An taken credit for by Hamas  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 03:55 PM   #52 
                                       When policemen, engineers, and doctors  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 03:56 PM   #54 
                                          If they are firing rockets  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 03:59 PM   #57 
                                          Are you kidding me?  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:03 PM   #59 
                                          If you make explosives in a university, that fatah targeted as well  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:06 PM   #62 
                                          According to you every building in Gaza is making warheads  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:07 PM   #64 
                                          When you link to me saying that  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:10 PM   #67 
                                          But Mosques, universities, and common markets...  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:11 PM   #68 
                                          The university fatah attacked during their skirmish? Bomb making facility  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:14 PM   #73 
                                          You mean 4 years ago, they MAY have had bombs there  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:21 PM   #77 
                                          Guess they did not kill all the snitches  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:23 PM   #79 
                                          The Arab street has always given a lot of bandwidth to SPIES!!!  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:27 PM   #85 
                                          See post 40  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:28 PM   #88 
                                          Dont give a fuck about either side. Have no skin in the game  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:33 PM   #94 
                                          Your Post (#40) is not persuasive. Many other sources support that neither side honored it  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:38 PM   #98 
                                          Israel killed around 10 people back in July in an airstrike  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:44 PM   #103 
                                          It was two buildings and again its been cited as being used for weapons development  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:23 PM   #80 
                                          By the Jerusalem post  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:25 PM   #83 
                                          Post a better one  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:28 PM   #87 
                                          Heres some crazy terrorist group condeming the attacks  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:32 PM   #92 
                                          Gush Shalom is hardly cannonical or unbiased  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:40 PM   #100 
                                          Yeah, lets not listen to any voices of reason  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:45 PM   #104 
                                          Their viewpoint about peace is well founded, but they are not a fount of facts  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:47 PM   #107 
                                          Are guided missiles fired into ambulances also legitimate?  SOS   Jan-01-09 04:30 PM   #89 
                                          Couple of Mosques, two university buildings, and no hospitals reported so far  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:30 PM   #90 
                                          Two UN Universities, two Mosques,  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:39 PM   #99 
                                          UN Universities? You are going to have to get some credible citations for that one  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:43 PM   #102 
                                          Democracy Now  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:46 PM   #105 
                                          Linky Please?  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:47 PM   #106 
                                          go to  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:49 PM   #111 
                                          They need to fact check better  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:48 PM   #110 
                                          It is sick that you think students going to a University are somehow bomb makers...  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:50 PM   #114 
                                          Press has it evacuated days before.  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:53 PM   #120 
                                          It was openly acknowledged as such...  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:59 PM   #123 
                                          Ynet? (OT)  SOS   Jan-01-09 04:47 PM   #108 
                                          Ynet I think is online only at this point. It prints a wide variety of artilces  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:56 PM   #122 
                                          Both sides are agreeing to the basic numbers, you can make up your own if you want to  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:06 PM   #63 
                                             The professions I just quoted are Hamas personnel  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:07 PM   #65 
                                             Depends on what they do  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:12 PM   #70 
                                             Yea, Doctors and students make the best "bomb makers"  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:13 PM   #72 
                                             Maybe not the best, but they were making explosives there  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:17 PM   #75 
                                             The link had nothing to do with civilians making bombs  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:25 PM   #81 
                                             Busy building.  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:28 PM   #86 
                                             There was nothing about a building in that article...  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:34 PM   #95 
                                 No, suicide bomber can choose his spot to kill the most non combatants  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 03:49 PM   #43 
                                    ...  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 03:54 PM   #47 
                                       Not every one  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 03:55 PM   #51 
      Actually, I meant something else  GoesTo11   Dec-31-08 07:46 PM   #11 
   I think Hamas wants to suck Israel into invading.  High Plains   Dec-31-08 06:50 PM   #4 
   I don't think they have much choice as to what goes on  halo experiment   Dec-31-08 06:56 PM   #7 
   If that were the plan I would have expected them to have rolled in by now  HardcoreProgressive   Dec-31-08 07:27 PM   #9 
   Indeed they have been  HardcoreProgressive   Dec-31-08 07:25 PM   #8 
      What point is a truce if the Palestinian people remain blockaded & starving?  LynnTheDem   Dec-31-08 10:05 PM   #15 
         Checkpoints are currently open and iternational aid is going in.  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 01:00 AM   #23 
            No Hamas didn't  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 03:29 PM   #34 
               Didn't what?  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 03:52 PM   #46 
                  See post 40, Hamas didn't break this last peace, not by a long shot  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 03:56 PM   #53 
                     So your are saying that until then Hamas was not firing any rockets into Israel the entire time  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:03 PM   #58 
                        The tunnel raid, 10 Gazan's killed by an IDF strike force  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:05 PM   #61 
                           Its not from lack or trying or wanting to  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:08 PM   #66 
                              The current Israeli government is committed to just that statement  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:12 PM   #71 
                                 No its not  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:17 PM   #76 
                                    You think they had peace before Hamas?  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:22 PM   #78 
                                       After telling clinton to blow oslo out his ass it has been all down hill  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:25 PM   #82 
                                          Arafat wanted to stay in power, he was corrupt as hell  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:27 PM   #84 
                                             weak force fuckup  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:30 PM   #91 
   Great timing!  fbahrami   Dec-31-08 06:28 PM   #2 
   Yeah, WW III starts just days before Obama takes office. Who could have seen this coming? nm  rhett o rick   Dec-31-08 07:49 PM   #12 
   Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Dec-31-08 06:51 PM   #5 
   Haaretz: IDF recommends major, but short-term, ground offensive in Gaza  laststeamtrain   Dec-31-08 10:07 PM   #16 
   How 'bout FOOD WATER ELECTRICITY MEDICINE?  LynnTheDem   Dec-31-08 10:10 PM   #17 
   Ain't it cool when you have such superior weapons and tactical position, you can call every shot.  iconicgnom   Dec-31-08 11:01 PM   #18 
   War is never a fair fight and never ever cool  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 01:19 AM   #25 
   Deleted message  Name removed   Jan-01-09 10:47 AM   #26 
   Yes, rather like the Warsaw ghetto  The abyss   Jan-01-09 03:54 PM   #49 
   I'm sort of wondering what a "major, but relatively short-term, ground offensive " looks like,  bemildred   Dec-31-08 11:44 PM   #20 
      Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Jan-01-09 12:14 AM   #21 
      Curious myself, The IAF used some new tricks, wonder what the ground forces have in mind  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 01:05 AM   #24 
         Right. They can do whatever they want.  iconicgnom   Jan-01-09 10:59 AM   #27 
            Not entirely true on the ground side  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 04:11 PM   #69 
               When Hezbollah routed IDF forces  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:38 PM   #97 
                  What did Hezbollah win?  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:43 PM   #101 
                  What does that have to do with what I posted?  halo experiment   Jan-01-09 04:47 PM   #109 
                  Rout is how the sinai ended up part of israel  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:51 PM   #116 
                  They won because they survived  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 05:03 PM   #125 
                     Pretty low bar  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 05:06 PM   #127 
                     Don't think it is going to go that way  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 05:11 PM   #128 
                     oh gag me! Kids in S. Lebanon are still stumbling over cluster bomblets.  iconicgnom   Jan-01-09 08:31 PM   #130 
                        It was clearly a pyrrhic victory, but Hezbollah did beat the Israelis, not my pushing them out  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 08:48 PM   #131 
                           Deleted message  Name removed   Jan-01-09 09:05 PM   #134 
                              When they hit 300 a second your drama works  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 09:39 PM   #141 
                                 I can't reply to the content without breaking DU rules, so go for it, Pavulon. n/t  iconicgnom   Jan-01-09 09:47 PM   #145 
                                    Pretty simple content, negotiate a solution  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 09:52 PM   #146 
                                       bullshit.  iconicgnom   Jan-01-09 09:55 PM   #148 
                                          Quite the rebuttal.(nt)  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 10:08 PM   #150 
                  They were not routed in anybodies mind except Nasals  HardcoreProgressive   Jan-01-09 05:04 PM   #126 
   I know I'll be flammed for saying this, but...  Odin2005   Jan-01-09 11:12 AM   #28 
   Deleted message  Name removed   Jan-01-09 03:29 PM   #33 
   What you got here is the oppressed becoming the oppressor  IndianaGreen   Jan-01-09 03:52 PM   #45 
      You called it! Thank you!  The abyss   Jan-01-09 04:15 PM   #74 
      Seems like the palestinian intifada has worn thin on the world  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 04:50 PM   #113 
         Not the world, just the U.S /NT  Bragi   Jan-01-09 08:54 PM   #133 
            EU and Arab governments  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 09:29 PM   #137 
   Who fired first, who fired most, is a red herring. The problem is Zionism.  iconicgnom   Jan-01-09 09:21 PM   #135 
   Example of Drama,  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 09:35 PM   #138 
      Zionism isn't "drama", nor are the wars intended to establish Zionism.  iconicgnom   Jan-01-09 09:38 PM   #140 
         And the wars to wipe out a state with a un mandate  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 09:40 PM   #142 
            Zionism is wrong. n/t  iconicgnom   Jan-01-09 09:42 PM   #143 
               Cant kill an ism.  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 09:46 PM   #144 
                  One most certainly can put an end to a racist constitution.  iconicgnom   Jan-01-09 09:53 PM   #147 
                     Never advocated that. How are you going to undo israel  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 10:08 PM   #149 
                        Again: Zionism is wrong.  iconicgnom   Jan-01-09 10:21 PM   #151 
                           No I mean Arafat should have taken the offer  Pavulon   Jan-01-09 11:22 PM   #152 
   "...rapidly moving forward with preparations for a possible ground offensive..."  unkachuck   Jan-01-09 09:36 PM   #139 
 
Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. "Hamas also was cold to a cease-fire"
My ass, they told the head of the U.N. Security Council they wanted a truce.

More bullshit from AP "journalists".
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GoesTo11 (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Link?
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Name removed (0 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
oberliner (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Where is the link to Hamas going to the UN Security Council to ask for a truce? nt


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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. They asked the council to urge leaders to help
the UN accepted their plea

] On Sunday, the UN Security Council approved a non-binding statement calling for "an immediate halt to all violence" in Gaza and urging all sides "to stop immediately all military activities."


http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2008/12/30-9
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GoesTo11 (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. This doesn't say anything about them asking the council anything.
As far as I can tell, Hamas has not said it wants a ceasefire. It wants Israel to cease fire, but that's not the same thing.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Well considering they aren't bombing cities
I would say Hamas wants a cease-fire
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oberliner (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Hamas rocket reaches Beersheba
Gaza militants have fired rockets at the Israeli city of Beersheba, 40 km (24 miles) from the Gaza Strip.

One rocket hit an empty kindergarten and another landed in open space. There were no reports of casualties from the strikes. Schoolchildren and students have been advised to stay at home because of the threat of further attacks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7805842.stm
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Is a rocket that can kill at max 3 people comparable to a GBU-39?
Nope.
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Chicken and egg
shooting rockets at people may make them drop ordinance on you. Fact of life.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Too bad Hamas was retaliating
The rocket fire from them was in retaliation to tunnels being bombed last month by IDF
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. No they shot them the entire time
they were all over NPR talking about how stoked they were to kill Israelis and die. Looks like they are getting it half right.

Again they should use those AK for something other than weddings and photo ops.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Here are some things to look up:
IDF leaves Gaza after op, 6 gunmen killed Latest Update:11.05.08, 06:57

IDF troops have completed their operation in the Gaza Strip, and are currently preparing to leave the Hamas-ruled Palestinian territory. Two soldiers were moderately wounded and four others sustained light injuries from a mortar shell, they were evacuated to the Soroka Medical Center in Beersheba for treatment.

For the first time since the ceasefire took effect in June, IDF forces operated deep in the Gaza Strip Tuesday night in a bid to collapse a tunnel located 250 meters (273 yards) from the border...


Gush Shalom Press Release: December 27, 2008

The escalation towards war could and should have been avoided. It was the State of Israel which broke the truce, in the 'ticking tunnel' raid on the night of the US elections two months ago. Since then the army went on stoking the fires of escalation with calculated raids and killings, whenever the shooting of missiles on Israel decreased.


The reason Israel gave at the time of bombing the 'ticking tunnels' were that they claimed Hamas was using the tunnels to capture IDF soldiers, although there is no evidence of this anywhere being reported in the past two months. The tunnels were the only way to get in food, cooking oil, etc due to the two-year long blockade of Gaza by IDF forces.
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oberliner (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #40
93. The point is that Hamas continues to launch rockets at Israeli cities
You inaccurately claimed that wasn't happening.

That is in addition to your unsubstantiated claim that Hamas had asked the Security Council for a truce.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #93
96. I didn't claim rocket fire wasn't happen, read again
I said it was RETALIATION for what Israel did on Nov. 5th 2008.

I can't seem to find where Hamas asked Russia to ask the Security Council to step in, you're right, but when I do you'll be the first to know. But, what does that have to do with the fact that Israel is in the wrong, that they started this latest conflict?
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oberliner (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #96
117. Here's what you wrote:
"Well considering they aren't bombing cities I would say Hamas wants a cease-fire"

My claim is that they were in fact bombing cities as evidenced from the article about Beersheba that I posted.

As to who started this latest conflict, I would say there is a lot of blame to go around.

Hamas did not have to declare the cease fire over and launch a barrage of rockets against Israel on December 24th.

Israel did not have to launch an attack of this magnitude into Gaza.

I think both sides were looking for a conflict to be honest, for a variety of reasons.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #40
119. The tunnel raid is a fact, no one disputes that, but there were prior violations by
both sides.

Gush Shalom is a good source for opinions, not facts
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
115. There is no "i" in ordnance (meaning weapons)
You may now return to the food fight in progress ;-)
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. Systemic Failure of firefox spellcecker
leads to grammar catestrophe. ha!
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #118
121. Ordinance is a law, Ordnance is a bomb
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #121
124. Broke both..
while in NG. No alcohol allowed on KFOR deployment. No shit, that was the rule. Not a drop for a year. That worked well.

"someone i know" offloaded (sober) a D6 (30,000 lb dozer) onto a humvee. Destroying it and all gear inside. Smashed the shit out of it. They were not armored them so it just squished.

Damaged in transit by shipper was how the paper work read.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #30
112. Yes...the GBU was aimed at a military target the Grads at civilians
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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
132. How do we know it was a Hamas rocket?
That's a serious question. Why do we assume that Hamas controls every militant group in Gaza capable of firing a mortar?
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #132
136. They claim it. when they killed
two kids with a rocket meant for israel. Hamas runs the area, it is their weapon.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. That is not for lack of trying
They have also stepped up the use of longer range rockets and are hitting Israeli cities
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Long range attacks lol
Hows that working out? 4 Israeli's dead in 4 days... yeah that is efficient
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Not for lack of trying.
I guess they would be better served by blowing themselves up on buses and markets. Same difference.

Should we feel sorry for hamas because they are not having great success at their civilian killing tactic.

Maybe they should take those ak's and have a real war, using infantry tactics.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Actually the suicide bombers have nothing to do with Hamas
Maybe oppressing an entire people for 40 plus years can breed some extremists, but Hamas has officially condemned suicide bombers. And, again, Hamas didn't start this latest round. Try again
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. The sure did, shot rockets the entire term of the hudna
they used time to try to regroup and then decided to play war. Hamas is sworn to destroy Israel. Guess they are dying doing their job.

standard weak force strong force conflict, just with more drams from the international hangers on.

Should have been a negotiated solution ten years ago.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Suicide bombers and shooting rockets aren't the same thing
But I guess you can't see past that.

The solution should have been done years before that, but Israel is run by the military-industrial complex. They have elections very soon, and the Prime Minister wants to remain in power.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. They were both Hamas sponsored
Edited on Thu Jan-01-09 03:47 PM by HardcoreProgressive
Many of us read heart rending stories of people with urgent needs unable to leave Gaza due to Israel locking down the checkpoints. That same lock down is widely credited with stopping the suicide bombings.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Credited by the Israeli government
Find out how many Israelis' have died by acts attributed to Hamas since 2000. Even if ALL of them were done by Hamas, it still pales in comparison to the 400 dead in 5 days.
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Guess hamas failed stats then
they wanted a war, they talked up all over every media outlet. Now they have it.

100 percent of those deaths were non combatant. 25% of your number are noncombatant , because hamas AIMS to kill innocents, Israel aims to kill hamas.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. But you just said the rocket fire couldnt be aimed?
Oops?
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. It cant, hence the two dead kids hamas killed in own goal
while trying to shoot a rocket into israel. Unguided weapon. A suicide bomber would try to get the most death for his act.

Hamas does have tools of war they could aim, they just choose not to. Making them assholes.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. And those dropping Bunker Busters on Mosques in Gaza,
those guys are fucking heroes, right? Wrong forum to be promoting war
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. You are pimping your SIDE
I have no side. No one is special in this conflict. Simple weak force strong force war. Both sides are behaving as they generally do in these things.

Put weapons in a mosque and it is no longer a mosque. Shouldn't need a bunker buster, waste of money. A 1000lb gbu should do the trick. 500 if you are worried about breaking windows.

Footage I have see shows secondary explosions on the mosque. I guess those cook offs are from all the innocence they stored there.

I promote a resonable settlement. Idiots promote solutions that will never happen.

Arafat missed out when he refused clintons deal and went to war. Downhill since then.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Fri Jan-02-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #56
153. Did you see the secondary explosions on the You Tube video?
There was clearly energetic material stored there.

Also you don't use bunker busters on a mosque. They would over penetrate and really not do much more that put a hole in the roof.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #50
129. Rockets can be aimed
The difference between rockets and missiles in an independent guidance section that can correct in mid-course or guide itself into a target.

Artillery rockets are not really made for single shots. You launch one at a time, as you zero in on the target and then the rest are launched as fire for effect. Hamas can't do that since they have no spotters or other kinds of real time feedback. Also if they stay that long, the IAF will get them. The result is rockets aimed in generally the right direction buy no way to walk them onto targets. An approach that has no useful military value.

It should also be known that Hamas launched their rockets at civilian targets with no attempt to hit military ones.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #44
52. An taken credit for by Hamas
The number are not relevant. Was is not about equal casualties on each side.

The vast majority of the deaths in Gaza are Hamas, something all sides are agreeing on. What percentage of the Hamas inflicted Israeli casualties are military?
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. When policemen, engineers, and doctors
are considered Hamas, well I guess you got me there...
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. If they are firing rockets
or making that possible as support personnel (other than marked medics which hamas has used for cover) they are targets. Money men, playmakers, and guys storing weapons are targets.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Are you kidding me?
Doctors, students, people praying-- all these are terrorists in your mind? Stunning.
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. If you make explosives in a university, that fatah targeted as well
and get blown to shit doing that by the people that explosive is meant for you are a fair target. No matter what letters follow your name.

You act like this is the only skirmish in the history of the world and no history parallels this.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. According to you every building in Gaza is making warheads
When does your militant ignorance end?
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. When you link to me saying that
when does your drama end. I said soldiers and their command and control are targets. Same as every modern war and skirmish.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. But Mosques, universities, and common markets...
those are terrorist command centers, huh? Right
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. The university fatah attacked during their skirmish? Bomb making facility
legal target and anyone in the bursting radius of a 2000lb bomb forfeits their life for being there. I dont know how you would count death from secondary explosions.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. You mean 4 years ago, they MAY have had bombs there
Sounds like enough evidence to me! Level them all!


Wrong.
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Guess they did not kill all the snitches
you know a large part of this data comes from spies. More from dumbshits on cellphones.

You got a counter source, or just an opinion to support your SIDE.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #79
85. The Arab street has always given a lot of bandwidth to SPIES!!!
Even yesterday Hamas was accusing Fatah of being SPIES!!! for Israel.

The facts are that Israel had a lot of data on where things were and what was happening where under Hamas. It enabled the multi-level strikes against them. Not just people but buildings, comms, material, and weapons. Its not clear how they got it, ELINT from cell phones would be one of many ways.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #79
88. See post 40
Hamas didn't break this last cease-fire.

Keep telling yourself they did, I could care less, you obviously believe the pro-Israeli media on this sight-unseen.
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #88
94. Dont give a fuck about either side. Have no skin in the game
it is a simple conflict. Nothing new in history. Simple weak force strong force conflict. Negotiated settlement vs throw your death to the world and see how far pity carried you. Except the world it tired of it, and their friends are broke.

Strong force has been quite restrained.

Time for weak force to negotiate. With words.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #88
98. Your Post (#40) is not persuasive. Many other sources support that neither side honored it
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #98
103. Israel killed around 10 people back in July in an airstrike
But then said that didn't violate the truce, same as the ticking tunnel raids.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. It was two buildings and again its been cited as being used for weapons development
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. By the Jerusalem post
Highly credible source... that is the neocon mouthpiece of the middle east.
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. Post a better one
that is how he game is played.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #87
92. Heres some crazy terrorist group condeming the attacks
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0812/S00563.htm

Sunday, 28 December 2008, 4:31 am
Press Release: Gush Shalom

Gush Shalom press release, December 27, 2008

The war in Gaza – a vicious folly of a bankrupt government

Bloodshed and suffering on both sides of the border could have been avoided

It is possible to return immediately to the ceasefire, make it stronger and firmer

The war in Gaza, the bloodshed, killing, destruction and suffering on both sides of the border are the vicious folly of a bankrupt government. A government which let itself be dragged by adventurous officers and cheap nationalist demagoguery, dragged into a destructive and unnecessary war which will bring no solution to any problem – neither to the communities of southern Israel under the rain of missiles nor to the terrible poverty and suffering of besieged Gaza. On the day after the war the same problems will remain – with the addition of many bereaved families, wounded people crippled for life, and piles of rubble and destruction.

The escalation towards war could and should have been avoided. It was the State of Israel which broke the truce, in the 'ticking tunnel' raid on the night of the US elections two months ago. Since then the army went on stoking the fires of escalation with calculated raids and killings, whenever the shooting of missiles on Israel decreased.

The cycle of bloodshed could and should be broken. The ceasefire can be restored immediately, and on firmer foundations. It is the right of Israel to demand a complete end to shooting on its territory and citizens – but it must stop all attacks from its side, end completely the siege and starvation of Gaza's million and half inhabitants, and stop interfering with the Palestinians' right to choose their own leaders.

Ehud Barak's declaration that he is stopping the elections campaign in order to concentrate on the Gaza offensive is a joke. The war in Gaza is itself Barak's elections campaign, a cynical attempt to buy votes with the blood and suffering in Netivot and Sderot, Gaza and Beit Hanun. Also so-called peace seekers such as Amos Oz s who give this offensive their support and encouragement could not afterwards shrug off responsibility.

ENDS


Just some wing-nut terrorist Hamas-controlled group right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Shalom

Gush Shalom (Hebrew: גוש שלום, lit. 'The Peace Bloc') is an Israeli left wing peace activism group founded and led by former Knesset Member and journalist, Uri Avnery, in 1993.

Avnery stated that he started Gush Shalom because he was disappointed by other Israeli peace movements such as Peace Now. It has described itself as the "hard core" of the Israeli peace movement
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #92
100. Gush Shalom is hardly cannonical or unbiased
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #100
104. Yeah, lets not listen to any voices of reason
Or any dissent from the Israeli love fest. That would be wrong.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. Their viewpoint about peace is well founded, but they are not a fount of facts
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SOS (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #73
89. Are guided missiles fired into ambulances also legitimate?
From the NYT, 1/1/09:

"Dr. Madhoun was in an ambulance responding to an Israeli strike at the Jabalya refugee camp in northern Gaza. Another missile hit the ambulance. The driver, Muhammad Abu Hasira, died instantly. Dr. Madhoun lingered for a day, dying of his wounds on Wednesday in the intensive care unit of Shifa Hospital, where hundreds of people have been brought since Israel began its heaviest assault on Gaza in three decades.

“He was just doing his work,” said the dentist, who would not give his name. “He’s a doctor, and I can’t understand why Israel would hit an ambulance. They can tell from the cameras it’s an ambulance.”"
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #68
90. Couple of Mosques, two university buildings, and no hospitals reported so far
There was an article in Ynet that quoted the head of Mossad as claiming hospitals were being used by Hamas to hide out. Later, also on Ynet, there was an article quoting a Hospital director in Gaza that it was not true.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #90
99. Two UN Universities, two Mosques,
and a few ambulances, from what I've read thus far.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. UN Universities? You are going to have to get some credible citations for that one
Since the UN does not have universities. The school hit was the Islamic University of Gaza. I am restraining myself from calling it Terror U.

The ambulances are new, I will look into that.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #102
105. Democracy Now
two days ago. UN-sponsored universities.
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. Linky Please?
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #106
111. go to
www.democracynow.org

Good program, daily podcasts and such. Much better world news view than what we get in the states on TV
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #105
110. They need to fact check better
Even the Faculty Union there never said anything about them being UN sponsored.

Even if they were...build bombs in Gaza, expect to get bombed
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #110
114. It is sick that you think students going to a University are somehow bomb makers...
Really it is, I can't sit and argue against your firmly held bias. Have a nice day
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #114
120. Press has it evacuated days before.
cant have it both ways.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #114
123. It was openly acknowledged as such...
Gaza lacks weapons companies, which Israel has a plethora of. There really wasn't another place that had the facilities needed to do development and its not like they could go out and buy more equipment. So they did it there. Reasonable and rationale thing to do. It did make those buildings targets and they were indeed destroyed. Welcome to shooting wars.
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SOS (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #90
108. Ynet? (OT)
Please look at this:

A deranged Israeli designer named Apollo Braun created t-shirts which referred to Obama as a "slave" and questioning who would kill Obama's daughter Malia.
Here's a quote from the Ynet coverage of Braun:

"The T-shirts (are) sported by youngsters all throughout New York."

I live in NY and not one "youngster" wore this garbage. Not one.
Do not beleive a word from this site.

Here's the link to their appalling, disgraceful and utterly dishonest coverage of this cretinous "designer":

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3527989...


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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #108
122. Ynet I think is online only at this point. It prints a wide variety of artilces
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #54
63. Both sides are agreeing to the basic numbers, you can make up your own if you want to
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. The professions I just quoted are Hamas personnel
Does that make them terrorists wielding rocket launchers? No.
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. Depends on what they do
if they are hamas party members no. If they are storing weapons, making weapons, or running command and control they are fair targets.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. Yea, Doctors and students make the best "bomb makers"
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Maybe not the best, but they were making explosives there
and died for participating in a war. Check the date and content, hamas and fatah fought over this facility.

Now it is blown to shit.

LINK:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/may/25/israel
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #75
81. The link had nothing to do with civilians making bombs
But it did have supposedly retaliating Hamas by killing a top official after 3 of their own had been kidnapped and shot... So more Hamas retaliation for acts against them was your point?
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. Busy building.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isr...

Point, fair target.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #86
95. There was nothing about a building in that article...
And can we get something more recent than 2007?
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. No, suicide bomber can choose his spot to kill the most non combatants
Edited on Thu Jan-01-09 03:52 PM by Pavulon
an unguided rocket is just a death lottery. Neither is AIMING and FIRING a weapon at your enemy.

EDIT:
See the Suicide douchebag. See the guy on the right. That is a rifle with a scope. A real man would use this to kill his enemy.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. ...
I guess you think every Gazan is a terrorist, I can't seem to get through to you. Have a good day
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Not every one
the guy that got bombed was. I think they should have taken the clinton deal instead of playing intifada.

Poor choices.
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GoesTo11 (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Actually, I meant something else
Edited on Wed Dec-31-08 07:49 PM by GoesTo11
I was looking for the link that said Hamas wanted a truce. This was France wanting a ceasefire, which I had seen. I hadn't heard about Hamas asking the UN Sec council for a truce.
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High Plains (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I think Hamas wants to suck Israel into invading.
Edited on Wed Dec-31-08 06:51 PM by High Plains
And engage the IDF on the ground in street-to-street urban fighting. That's better odds than trying to throw rocks at jets.

On edit: And Israel is bullying, bellicose, and brutal enough to fall for it.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I don't think they have much choice as to what goes on
It is out of their hands.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. If that were the plan I would have expected them to have rolled in by now
The IDF took a very different approach against Hamas than they have done anywhere else before. Wondering if they are doing the same thing for the ground forces. Have to wait and see. Apparently they are still massing on the border.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Indeed they have been
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
cited
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/12/30/news/ML-Pales...

The spokesman, Mushir Masri, spoke Tuesday after Israeli officials unexpectedly floated the idea of a truce. Israel's security Cabinet is to discuss a proposal tomorrow to suspend Israel's offensive to give Hamas an opening to halt rocket fire. If the truce fails, Israel would launch a ground offensive.

Masri says an end to the fighting is not enough. He says that if Israel halts "the aggression and the blockade, then Hamas will study these suggestions."


=============================
Hamas want a truce but only on its terms. The more they delay, the more likely they will be replaced by the PA.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. What point is a truce if the Palestinian people remain blockaded & starving?
The last "truce", Israel killed 6 in Gaza.

And said that didn't violate the truce.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Checkpoints are currently open and iternational aid is going in.
However, Gaza started in a deep hole even before the air strikes

The ceasefire was not honored by either side particularly well. Many rockets were launched during it as well. Hamas was the one that discontinued it.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. No Hamas didn't
the IDF bombed tunnels under Gaza last month, tunnels that were the only source of getting imports into the Strip due to the 2 year blockade. Hamas didn't break the truce, and even during the last cease-fire Israel killed a handful of people- yet that didn't somehow discontinue the peace (according to them).
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #34
46. Didn't what?
Break the truce? That is comical. Both sides shredded.

Not continue the cease fire?...that was clearly announced by Hamas

Step up rocket attacks, including longer range ones targeting Israeli cities.


Hamas escalated things to the point where there was clearly going to be an open shooting war. The they got caught with their pants down. The PA will come in and resume control. The shooting from both sides will stop and once again there will be an attempt at peace
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. See post 40, Hamas didn't break this last peace, not by a long shot
But you purposefully ignore that post and keep believing the Pro-israel love fest media
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. So your are saying that until then Hamas was not firing any rockets into Israel the entire time
Edited on Thu Jan-01-09 04:04 PM by HardcoreProgressive
of the so called cease fire? Note that was actually a hudna, the Google page for that is instructive.

There were violations by both sides, the tunnel raid was clearly the largest of them.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. The tunnel raid, 10 Gazan's killed by an IDF strike force
Palestinian farmers being booted off their land, attempting to wall Gaza in like the Warsaw Ghetto, turning off electricity to the Strip, turning off the water supply to the West Bank by the Western Aquifer... yeah there is no innocent side here, that much I agree, but I hope you realize that Israel has been worse to these people than Hamas has been to them.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. Its not from lack or trying or wanting to
Edited on Thu Jan-01-09 04:12 PM by HardcoreProgressive
Israel does not have as part of its mission statement the elimination of any or all of the Muslim nations. Hamas on the other hand...
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. The current Israeli government is committed to just that statement
And if you lived in a territory that was year by year growing smaller, with a big bully taking your lunch money, wouldn't you oppose them too?
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #71
76. No its not
It has said that removing Hamas from control in Gaza is a goal. Hamas is not the PA and Gaza is not recognized as a sovereign state.

The air strikes etc are not over Palestinian rights or territory its about stopping rockets that were starting to reach into the heart of Israel. Is surprising how few people get that the longer range rockets are the crux of the matter.

If I lived in Gaza I would want the return of the PA to end the fascist terror regime run by Hamas. I would also want the rockets attacks to stop so my family and I could leave decently and so peace might have a chance.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. You think they had peace before Hamas?
Hamas got voted in because the Fatah was so corrupt and weak-kneed. All they care about is getting fair treatment, not being staved to death under military blockade, not being kept in the literal dark because Israel has a bigger army. The day Hamas won the elections, the IDF said it was their mission to annihilate them, and weeks later the blockade was in place. That was just two years ago. And it still goes on to this day.
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. After telling clinton to blow oslo out his ass it has been all down hill
looks like arafat missed the boat on that one. So now we are back to weak force strong force conflict. Just like any african conflict, but everyone here thinks they are special. God is on their side and such bullshit.

Not all that complex really.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. Arafat wanted to stay in power, he was corrupt as hell
He thought by perpetuating war with support of foreign countries he could retain power, didn't work so well.
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #84
91. weak force fuckup
smart weak force, short of friends and money would go back to that table. Work on that state, get egypt to sponsor it. Stupid ones motivated by religious nuts die fighting strong force.

Nothing new under the sun.
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fbahrami (152 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. Great timing!
s a d
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Yeah, WW III starts just days before Obama takes office. Who could have seen this coming? nm
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Name removed (0 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
laststeamtrain (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
16. Haaretz: IDF recommends major, but short-term, ground offensive in Gaza
IDF recommends major, but short-term, ground offensive in Gaza
By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondents and News Agencies


The Israel Defense Forces recommended a major, but relatively short-term, ground offensive in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday, as military preparations continued on the border. The army was given the green light to forge ahead with Operation Cast Lead, which enters its sixth day Thursday.

Detailed briefings have been underway for the past two days at Southern Command, with officers receiving their orders. The General Staff believes that more pressure must be put on Hamas to make it agree to a long-term cease-fire under conditions more favorable to Israel.

The IDF said rocket fire on the south was expected to continue during a ground operation. The army recommends that a diplomatic exit plan be prepared while a cease-fire agreement is formulated.

While defense officials tend to favor a clear agreement with Hamas, even if it is not enshrined in a written document, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni is considering another idea.

She reportedly believes that it might be better to aim for a situation in which there is no clearly set-out agreement, but Israel would make clear beforehand that it would respond forcefully to any firing from Gaza after hostilities ended.

<more>

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051682.html
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. How 'bout FOOD WATER ELECTRICITY MEDICINE?
Edited on Wed Dec-31-08 10:11 PM by LynnTheDem
I'd say "go fuck yourselves" to any truce where my family remained starving to death or dying from lack of medicines.

Over 50% of the Gaza people are under 17 years old.

Over 50% of all Gaza people suffer from malnutrition.

Killed by bombs, killed by tank fire, killed by gunships...at least it's faster death than by starvation.

A truce with a continued blockade-boot on their necks?

That doesn't seem to work so well.
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iconicgnom (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Ain't it cool when you have such superior weapons and tactical position, you can call every shot.
I wouldn't want to be a Palestinian. There's nothing a Palestinian can do but watch the armored bulldozers coming, pushing Palestinians inexortably into the sea.

Imagine being born in a tiny "country" that's in fact a prison, blockaded N,S,E,W by an immensely powerful and virulently racist culture that despises you for what you are. For your claim to the land you and your ancestors lived on. That has no heart. Imagine what that would do to you, as a person.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. War is never a fair fight and never ever cool
Edited on Thu Jan-01-09 01:19 AM by HardcoreProgressive
But there is lots Gazans can do.

Palestinians in the West Bank are not having these kind of problems, just those in Gaza which was taken over by Hamas. The guys doing the shooting will not talk to Hamas, but will to the PA, the recognized government of the Palestinian people. The PA wants to resume its rightful control of Gaza and stop the shooting.

When Hamas took over Gaza it starting shooting anyone from Fatah and the PA. Christians and Jews were eliminated as well. You know how un Islamic that is, but if you speak up and criticize Hamas, you will join them.

Gaza is indeed boxed in, but one of the sides is controlled by fellow Muslims who used to be responsible for Gaza. They won't open the border until Gaza is no longer in control in Gaza. The guys shooting at you are saying the same thing.

There is a pattern here and the Gazans can do something. Its called throw Hamas out and let the PA resume control of Gaza. The rockets will stop, the bombs will stop, and the checkpoints will open. Seems pretty clear to me.
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Name removed (0 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
The abyss (414 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
49. Yes, rather like the Warsaw ghetto
What makes me incredibly angry: this is being performed with U.S. tax dollars!
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-31-08 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I'm sort of wondering what a "major, but relatively short-term, ground offensive " looks like,
In a place like Gaza. It seems to me I hear dithering and political hedging. I thought this was all meticulously planned out months ago.
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Name removed (0 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Curious myself, The IAF used some new tricks, wonder what the ground forces have in mind
They could have rolled in several days ago
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iconicgnom (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Right. They can do whatever they want.
It's like a big fat cat with an exhausted and bleeding mouse.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
69. Not entirely true on the ground side
Hezbollah bloodied the IDF after a major bombing campaign. Israel will not want to repeat it.

This time the IAF took its time and built up a proritiezed targets list and got to most of them in the first day. That was not what was done in the past. Have to wonder given that change in doctrine if the ground forces will also have similar changes. Note that those changes could also be horrific.

I am still surprised they have not rolled in hard yet.
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #69
97. When Hezbollah routed IDF forces
it was a half-assed attempt by Israel, honestly. They claimed they sent 30,000 troops- it was more like 3000. Many of them refused to fight, turn and ran when the time came, too. This is different, their is a deep hatred among them for Palestinians.
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #97
101. What did Hezbollah win?
they did a great job in the press But at the end they retook the golan heights, right?

We killed 300 people a second for 12 hours straight with airplanes that carry the same bomb load as an f15. If they wanted to kill them all they could. They have the inventory of conventional weapons.

Funny they are not. Give Hezbollah a B61 armed fused and ready to fire how long before they popped you think?
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Idealism (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #101
109. What does that have to do with what I posted?
...?
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #109
116. Rout is how the sinai ended up part of israel
rout means high kill rate or gain in war. Hezbollah got neither.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #101
125. They won because they survived
Israeli causalities were higher than expected as well. Even the IDF in its after action analysis recognized and corrected problems.

If Hamas (vice lone madman) is still shooting rockets at Israel when this is over, Hamas will have won, even if the death toll is 10,000 to one.
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Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. Pretty low bar
but fits with the weak force strong force conflict. At the end of the day, hamas is still stuck in gaza.

A win for them is if they can force international pressure to halt the attack on them.

If they just bury their dead martyrs it seems a draw to me.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #127
128. Don't think it is going to go that way
Edited on Thu Jan-01-09 05:11 PM by HardcoreProgressive
Egypt and most of the other Arab nations have abandoned Hamas. PA wants to resume control. Some Fatah people have emerged and there are fire fights between them and Hamas.

Its not like Lebanon in 2006, IAF used new and very effective tactics. While I am for the removal of Hamas (I really don;t like fascists), its way to hard to call at this time.
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iconicgnom (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #125
130. oh gag me! Kids in S. Lebanon are still stumbling over cluster bomblets.
It's a turkey shoot from the sky, and any pretense at some king of parity is obscene.
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ProgressiveProfessor (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. It was clearly a pyrrhic victory, but Hezbollah did beat the Israelis, not my pushing them out
but by wearing them down until Israel withdrew.

That there are still cluster munition killing people may be the reason they have not been used in Gaza.

There is no parity in war, and this kind of war is heavily asymmetric, Hamas knew that. They knew that they were putting their civilians at risk. They did not care. What they did not expect is the way it was going to go down and how badly Hamas was going to be hurt.
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Name removed (0 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #131
134. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Pavulon (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Jan-01-09 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #134