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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 09:51 AM
Original message
Vatican to be sued over sex abuse claims
Source: guardian

Three men who claim they were abused by Catholic clergy in America have succeeded in naming the Vatican as sole defendant in a lawsuit and are hoping to force Pope Benedict XVI to give evidence in the case.

The 6th US circuit court of appeal recently ruled that although the Holy See, as a sovereign state, was immune from most lawsuits, the plaintiffs could proceed with their argument that its officials were involved in a deliberate effort to cover up evidence of sexual abuse by American priests.

Their case centres on a 1962 directive from the Vatican telling church officials to hide sex abuse complaints against clergy.

William F McMurray, a lawyer representing the men, who claim they were abused in Louisville, Kentucky, says the document, which became public in 2003, makes the Vatican liable for the acts of clergy whose crimes were kept secret because of the directive. He says the pope, at 81, is the only living witness to the establishment of the 1962 policy. Before his election to the papacy, Joseph Ratzinger spent 24 years heading the Vatican department charged with investigating and disciplining abusive priests, a role that would have led him to brief his predecessor, John Paul II, on the situation.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/15/vatican-sex-abuse-claims



Immunity from prosecution?

How very convenient.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. yeah and these people feel entitled to talk about morality.
:rofl:

i am pretty sure if there is a god, i will get through the gates just fine. pedophiles and those who continue to support them wont.

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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. "We do not answer to the laws of mortal men. Smirk." - Pope Ratzinger
"In matters of sex and godlieness, we take, um, a Repubicon-style Wide Stance. Smirk."

- Pope Ratzinger
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
3. Well hopefully if they succeed
then the case can be used as precedent to get Boosh in the Hague.
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TlalocW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
4. It will be nice to see a trial
Where there are participants whose robes aren't just black. Yes, it's chic and goes with everything, but let's liven it up with some red bishops and if the Pope actually takes the stand, some nice bright white.

TlalocW
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. And don't forget...
the cool hats :)
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TlalocW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. You know if contempt didn't land you in a heap of trouble
I would love to say to a judge, "It's 3 in the goddamn afternoon. What the hell are you still wearing a robe for?"

TlalocW
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. Make 'em pay, make 'em pay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
6. Never going to go to court.
At the most, the plaintiffs will get a check.


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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. A church that commands international obedience to its heirarchy...
...should not escape responsibility for actions carried out by its officers.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Sure. But anyone expecting the Pope anywhere near this matter is fooling themselves. nt
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Rebubula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
7. One day
I can imagine a day when we will be free of the christian mythology. Perhaps not during my meager life...but one can dream.

Christianity (capitalized only due to sentence structure) is the best marketing ploy that the world has ever seen. 2000 years of brand building that will never be seen again. The more you learn about the church and its origins, the more you realize that it is nothing more than a creation to maintain order and control.

How an otherwise intelligent adult can look at history (not the bible - that is fiction) and still find a belief that some omnipotent sky fairy is watching, recording and managing this planet and its peoples is beyond me. Faith is silly when you have no basis other than an old book cobbled together by the powers that were.

But of course, perhaps I am wrong. However, that certainly is not an apology to anyone offended by my comments.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. It's more of a
multi-level marketing scheme. Not only do you have to play the game, you have to get more suckers to join the scheme in order to make maximum points. Hence, the incessant proselytizing.

It's pretty much just Amway mixed with child rape.
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. I my lifetime...
of 40 years, I have seen xtianity only get a stronger grip on society. Unfortunately, I don't see it changing.
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scytherius Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
8. Awesome. Keep it in the news that the Catholic Church's legacy is pedophillia n/t
nt
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. Ratzinger also tried to destroy Liberation Theology.
The Dirty War failed and Justice prevailed. It's just a matter of time before Ratzinger's name gets connected to what happened in Latin America in the 80's.
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Politicalboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
16. I wanna see
Pope on a rope. He's just as guilty as the rest of the bunch.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
17. Immunity extends to ALL sovereign nations
And the Vatican is viewed as a sovereign nation. International law says if you have an action against a sovereign nation you have to go to that nation and file your lawsuit in its courts. Now their are exceptions, but these relate to Cuba and Iran (and even these exceptions have limitations).

As to the document, here it is:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Observer/documents/2003/08/16/Criminales.pdf

Reading it, while it requires all parties to be quiet about any such "solicitation", it denies any punishment on a person making such a claim AND in fact requires all catholics who know of such "solicitations" to make this know to their bishop. IT does require the destruction of any accusation without ANY foundation, but then says any accusation that has support but can NOT be proved at the present time MUST be preserved in case further evidence is found.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

My reading of the paper implies the only person who are can NOT reveal the accusation is the Religious person involved in the investigation and subsequent trial, the accuser also has to take an oath BUT IS NOT SUBJECT TO ANY PENALTY if that oath is broken (Unless otherwise to be kept silent for other good cause, i.e. an accuser can not be force to NOT tell Secular authorities if he or she had participated in any Catholic Judicial Procedural). (paragraph 13).

Furthermore paragraph 1 implies that this paper involves actions that incur between a priest and a penitent i.e. in the act of confession. The paragraph then is expanded to included NOT only the Confessional but any act that may be consequent as a penitent asking for forgiveness. I can not read it as anything more. i.e. does NOT cover action directly reported to the Bishop but when such reports come through the confessional (Through the expansion can include such a report IF PRIVACY is expected).

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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. For the last 30-odd years the UN has refused to recognise the Vatican
as a sovereign state and has viewed it rather as a 'state with a state' in Italy, as well as a global commercial corporation.

During my time at the UN Security Council where I worked some 25 years there were countless attempts by the Vatican to gain a permanent seat on the UNSC as well as full recognition of statehood as accorded to bona fide sovereign states.

All these attempts failed although observer status only was eventually accorded along with strict caveats.

The UN's own investigations into the collapse of Banco Ambrosiano, the murder of 'God's Banker' Roberto Calvi, the collapse of the Vatican Bank and the granting of immunity from prosecution by President George Herbert Bush to top Vatican mobster Cardinal Marcinkus were pivotal.

Classified documents relating to Pius XII's ('Hitler's Pope', according to his biographer John Cornwell) pedophile activites were also the subject of many gagging/shredding attempts by the Vatican.

I guess the current impasse about subpoenaing Ratzinger was to be expected.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. And for at least ten of those years that opposition was ;lead by the old Soviet Union.
Remember ANY of the big five can keep anyone out of the UN, the US did that for decades in regards to Red China. Red China was only admitted once US opposition to replacing Taiwan with red China ended did Red China get a seat.

Secondary, the UN will NOT seat a country if they is any opposition to seating that country, for Example, when Germany was divided, neither West Germany nor East Germany had a seat (Both did get a seat in the 1970s when both agreed NOT to oppose each other's admittance, but note it was by agreement of BOTH Countries AND their respective allies, the US and the USSR). North and South Korea did NOT join the UN till 1991 for both oppose each other admittance (The fall of the Former Soviet Union forced North Korea to look more "peaceful" so agreed to a solution similar to Germany's solution of 1973). On a similar scale when the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia wanted into the UN, Greece opposed it UNTIL it took the "Provisional Name" of the "Former Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia". This had more to do with internal Greek Politics (and the breakup of the old Ottoman Empire in the late 1800s, then anything else).

Korea's admittance into the UN:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1309/is_n4_v28/ai_11715979
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2792.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=dB_8L4ysZrEC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=Korea+UN+membership&source=web&ots=UgHFCsOfwv&sig=Nq7EZhf7Z9r0GeAWRyj_A7wItJo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA70,M1

Articles on Taiwan and why it should be (And is NOT) a member of the UN:
http://www.davekopel.org/Misc/OpEds/Taiwans-right-to-UN-membership.htm

More on Macedonia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute

As to the Vatican the following Countries recognize it as an independent country:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_missions_of_the_Holy_See

My point was simple, many countries, including the US, recognize the Vatican as a sovereign nation. UN membership is affected by politics, especially among the five permanent security council members. Right now Red China and the Vatican have had a dispute over the Catholic Church in China. China says the Catholic Church in China is independent of the Vatican, the Vatican says it is NOT, and the only reason Chinese Bishops maintain their independence is do to political pressure from the Red Chinese Government. This is consistent with Red Chinese demand for control over all POTENTIAL political opposition. The Red Chinese remember the Boxer rebellion of the early 1900s, the 1860s Civil War, and the raise of their own Communist Party, all of which rose out of existing Religious/Reform groups that later spawned political opposition. Thus the Red Chinese do NOT want ANY independent Reform/Political groups on anything but the local level (And even then watched carefully). This includes the Catholic Church but much more (Including the Dalai Lama of Tibet and his followers, any any other group that "might" give raise to opposition to the party).

Now, this opposition to ANY outside political organization, the Vatican is just the largest one NOT a member of the UN THAT has potential membership inside China I.e. the Catholic Bishops and Priests). Arguments over who can name Bishops in China is constant between the Vatican and China. The Chinese Government does NOT want any independent organization in China, let alone one with connections with an outside power base (i.e. the Vatican).

Given the above, the Red Chinese Government has consistently opposed ANY admittance of the Vatican into the UN. Italy has not such problems, neither does the rest of the world (with the possible exception of Russia) but since Red China is on the Security Council, it can veto any one nations efforts to join the UN (Through once in, no nation has ever been kicked out or left, unlike the old League of Nations which had several member leave in the 1930s, even as it refused to admit the Soviet Union). For at least the last 30 years the dispute between the Vatican and Red China as to the Catholic Church in China has been a point of contention between the two, and the reason China will always threaten a veto over any effort to admit the Vatican. Until China's opposition is ended, probably do to some deal like the one involving East and West Germany in 1973 OR a change in the World Wide Political situation like the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, I see no change.

Now Russia does NOT have diplomats with the Vatican, but does permit the Vatican to have a minster in Russia. This has to do with the Raise of the Orthodox Church in Russia under both Yeltsin and Putin. The Orthodox church is no where near the power it had under the Czars, but it is an important institution inside Russia. The dispute between the Patriarch of Moscow and the Vatican over Catholics inside Russia has been a sticking point between the Patriarch and the Pope. Technically all Christians (That is Catholics AND Orthodox) in a country must be under the Bishops of that country. The Catholic Church in the US has long have a history of duplicate Bishops in North American (Generally Latin rite dominates, but Greek-Catholics rites, technically under Rome, tend to have independent diocese over the same territories as Latin Rite Diocese). The Patriarch views this as wrong and objects to the Pope naming bishops for Latin rite churches in Russia, The Patriarch believes he should have that right. This has been a point of dispute ever since Stalin merged the Uniate Orthodox Church (who recognize the Pope as the head of the Church) with the Orthodox Church of Moscow in the late 1940s.

A complicating factor is, even today, a main source of funds to Orthodox Churches in the former Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact Nations, have been money from member Churches located in the US. Technically they should be under the local Latin Rite Bishops, but do to long custom, are under their own Bishops.

Now the Russia situation is NOT as critical as the Chinese situation, but it is a factor and why another member of the Security Council does NOT want the Vatican in the UN. I do NOT think it is a serious factor for the Chinese seem to have a much greater demand that the Vatican NOT be seated, but the Situation with Russia and the Russian Church has been and continues to be a point of conflict between Russia and the Vatican.

List of Uniate Churches:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Uniate

My point is the Vatican meets ALL of the requirements to be a member of the UN EXCEPT the most important one, agreement by all FIVE Permanent members of the Security Council. Why even push it to far if at least one says they will veto such an admission? Thus why the push has failed over the years and will continue.

As to WWII and Pope Pius, he was a diplomat and the first rule of any diplomat is NEVER offend, thus Pius XII was never going to offend anyone, be it Hitler or Stalin. Pius was one of the first people in Europe to say you can NOT trust Hitler (More to do with Hitler's failure to follow the Concordat he signed with the Vatican then anything else, but that came to a head in 1938 under Pius XI who preceded Pius XII, but Pius XII was part of the Vatican that opposed Hitler's ignoring the Concordat).

AS to Hitler, most people in Government at that time are NOT innocent. Whey did Hitler's aide fly to Britain in the Spring of 1941? Was that part of a proposed agreement to end the war with Britain in exchange for Britain giving Hitler a free hand against Russia? Some of the records of that flight and exchange is still secret even in Britain. I can see Churchill entering into negotiations with Hitler in late 1940 early 1941, for no actually fighting was occurring at that time (France was under Hitler's Rule, the Battle of Britain was over, the Balkans were not yet invaded by Hitler, Africa was an Italian Debacle, soon to be undone by Rommel but that was in the Future), the Bismark was sunk but overall no real conflict between Germany and Britain (Yes they were at War, Bombing each other's cities, but again to no real effect). I could see Churchill trying to work out a compromise to end the war, get German Forces out of France, even if that meant Russia under Hitler (Poland was lost, the best Britain could hope for in late 1940 early 1941 was France). I could see such a deal being discussed, after WWII Churchill sat down with Stalin and negotiations with Stalin in the same regards to the Countries of Eastern Europe). I also suspect FDR veto it, telling Churchill if he signed a peace or truce with Hitler, FDR would cut off lead-lease to Britain.

My point is whatever crimes Pius XII did (and there is debate to what if any crimes he did commit) they are people who did greater crimes at the same time) crimes by Nations have NOT kept them out of the UN (The Former Soviet Union for Example and later Cambodia under Pol Pot, who retained its UN Seat for years after losing power in Cambodia do to the Invasion by Vietnam, do to the support of Red China). The issue for the UN should be "will the addition bring about increase discussions that will avoid future conflicts?" If the answer is yes, Membership should be granted, if not then no. I will NOT say one way or anther as to the Vatican, but UN membership does NOT mean a Nation is NOT Sovereign, all it means is that sometime in the past it had approval of the UN as a whole AND all five permanent members of the Security Council.
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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. The Soviet Union argument is not entirely valid. The UN's disdain
of Vatican recognition was always on law and order issues.

The main opposition in terms of military intelligence sources always came from NATO which was unanimous that the Vatican operates as a front for global organised crime.

And that argument was consistently supported by official State Secrets testimony of all the main parties that were signatories to post-World War I and II peace treaties.

The Vatican's pariah status according to international constitutional law precepts that underpon the workings of the UN os justly deserved.

The current child abuse law suits and cover ups are only the tip of the iceberg.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. There is a difference between being a sovereign nation and claiming to be a sovereign nation. Is
the Vatican actually a nation or not?
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-17-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. The modern Concept of the Nation-State is only about 500 years old
Prior to that it was common for Nations to exist within States, thus the Ottoman Empire (A State) had territory control over Greece, Syria, Egypt and other nations, but other then demand tribute from those nations citizens made no serious efforts to change them (This had been true of most pre-modern Empires, they were efforts to collect money through conquest NOT to merge the people conquered together into one Nation, Rome may be the only exception to this rule, but that is due to Rome extending its Citizenship to anyone who wanted to be Roman, a concept rejected in the rest of the World (China seems to have adopted a similar attitude but the First Emperor made an effort to make himself first in History that the record is unclear, through Chinese as a nation starts about his time). Note these are two exceptions to the General Rule. Nations were known to be under foreign rule for Centuries (Iran under the Pathanians for example), thus the fact a Nation has no independent Territory (i.e. is NOT a State) does not mean it does NOT exist.

The Vatican is one such entity, it has territory independence (Through surrounded by Italy), it is called a Sovereign nation my most nations of the world (Through some do not, see my response to the next commenter to my comments). In many ways that is all that is needed, a widespread recognition that a Nation exists. The Vatican passes both tests.

One last comment, remember the key here is NOT if the world as whole see the Vatican as a Nation, but if the US does. The US has had a diplomat at the Vatican since Reagan (Through from the time of President Grant 1871 where the Pope Lost control of the City of Rome till Reagan in 1982 no such diplomatic relations existed). Thus the argument that the Vatican is a Sovereign Nation, for the Executive Branch recognize it as such. The court generally will defer to the State Department on that issue and I see any Appeal to the US Supreme Court ruling that way for that reason.
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