Russian troops roll into key Georgian city

[rayofreason]

Source: AP

OUTSIDE GORI, Georgia – Russian troops and paramilitaries rolled into the strategic Georgian city of Gori on Wednesday, apparently violating a truce designed to end the conflict that has uprooted tens of thousands and scarred the Georgian landscape.

Georgian officials said Gori, a central hub on Georgia's main east-west highway, was looted and bombed by the Russians before they left later in the day.

Moscow denied the accusations, but it appeared to be on a technicality: a BBC reporter in Gori reported that Russians tanks were in the streets as their South Ossetian separatist allies seized Georgian cars, looted Georgian homes and then set some homes ablaze.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/story//ap/georgia_russia

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What a surprise. Soon the Russians will be denying that they are in Tbilisi, denying that they have deposed Shaakashvili, and claiming that the new government represents the "will of the people", who will be arrested and/or shot if they protest.

[iamthebandfanman]

1. Makin' 'Comrad' Stalin proud.

Im sure they were just there to visit the stalim museum and birthplace, thats all.

[dipsydoodle]

2. The BBC reporter

was OUTSIDE of Gori relying on hearsay. It's like a lot of things in life : a matter of who you listen to. What may have been more accurate was the Russians were outside Gori and did not try to stop the looting.

[tekisui]

4. That sounds familiar.....

Where have I seen that before, allowing looting that could potentially spiral into a lawless insurgency?

[dipsydoodle]

5. The looting

seems to have been by South Ossetians whose entire town had effectively been destroyed by the Georgians Thursday last week.

[tekisui]

6. The Georgian President seems to be begging

for an all out war with Russia.

[dipsydoodle]

7. Ding ding

Give a teddy bear to the man from NC who's whistling Woody's Do Re me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzOWTNMruXU

I've got a pal from Sparta coming over in 10 days time. :hi:

[bemildred]

11. Yeah, he's hot to trot.

There is nothing good in his future the way things are now, and he doesn't have a lot of time to stall either.

I'm surprised nobody has compared him to "Little Belgium" yet. (Oooooops, now I let that cat out of the bag.)

[Igel]

25. Or not, to read reports from inside Tskhinvali.

But that crucially depends on not accepting at face value the Russian media's obviously unbiased word on the matter.

[debunkthelies]

21. BBC

Hmmmm, kind of like when they reported the collapse of bldg. 7 in NYC 23 minutes before it actually collapsed. That must have been hearsay too.:rofl:

[dipsydoodle]

24. Did they really do that ?

Just asking.

[WriteDown]

3. Goodbye Georgia.

Hello Russian Republic of Geogia.

[Dogtown]

9. More important:

Russia has *NO* intention of backing down.

We are, to some extent at least, obligated to Georgia.



We've been called out by Russia and there's no way we can win at all.

If we ignore the provocation, we're clearly not as tough as we claim.
If we lend more than token support, we risk war with a major power. One that will gain immediate support from Iran, NK, and Syria.


The merchants running this country have been out-Stratego'd. They thought they were playing Monopoly...

[WriteDown]

10. We never had a good strategy for this...

How do you fight a major country with nuclear weapons who is actually willing to use them? Almost impossible. The nuclear possibility changes everything.

[Dogtown]

13. Will never get that far

Our military is used up. Years of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, tour after tour because of no replacements, equipment broken and worn out by years of harsh climate and contractor neglect; we *can not* field an army that wouldn't be torn to shreds by any other world power.


*WE'RE* the only nation likely to use nuclear weapons in this scenario, out of desperation and the fear our leaders have of being held accountable.

[WriteDown]

14. Large countries do not fight with troops

when facing each other. The new wars are all in the air. I have no doubt that we could still mount an unbelievable air campaign, but I can only imagine what that would lead to.

[Dogtown]

15. That is a fallacy

A false dictum from the Billy Mitchell Archives.

No war will ever be won by air power. If North Vietnam could prevail with all that was thrown at it, how could the same strategy work against a country with ferroconcrete instead of bamboo?

Besides, our air-power is just as depleted as the rest of our forces. Sand is unkind to jet engines AND Hummers.

We bomb at will in backwaters like Iraq, but I doubt our ability to dent the air defences of a major power.


American's have an inability to accept that we are not invincible. *We were beaten TWICE in the last half of the last century and attrition has destroyed our ability to defend ourselves.*

[WriteDown]

17. I don't think we've ever seen the true extent of our airpower...

It would be truly terrifying to behold. Don't forget that it worked fine in Kosovo.

[atreides1]

19. I think we have

The United States Air Force has over 7,500 aircraft commissioned as of 2004, and that's all aircraft types.

Of course it worked in Kosovo, because once again the US was fighting against a small military force with few assets. Also, the Russians possess much more AAA then the Kosovars did.

[Dogtown]

20. As I said..

American's cannot accept our mortality.

Kosovo is not the Russian Air Force. Kosovo did not have the Russian ground defenses. Kosovo was not allied with Iran/Syria/NK/et al; all of whom would surely pile on as soon as the feeding frenzy begins.

Kosovo couldn't launch bomber/missile attacks on American soil.

Our Air Force had not been fighting a 6+year war in one of the harshest climates in the world, on 2 fronts, w/o the replenishment of conscription. Our tired-ass "shock and awe" will be nothing compared to what russia can bring down on us.

Wars are always the same, WriteDown. It doesn't matter if your ranged weapons are ballista or $5B+ bombers. Someone always believes that technology will replace actual fighting.

[bdab1973]

22. I disagree...

The vast majority of our fighter fleet (F-15, F-22) has not been deployed to the middle east that much in recent years, simply because there's no need for them. As for our strike fighter fleet, they are still doing fairly well, the F-15Es are fairly new and the F-16s are numerous, and many of them are fairly new as well.

The main fleet that's suffering right now is the airlift side of the house...in particular the C-130 and C-17 mostly because they are having their wings flown off, accumulating many hours on their airframes. The war in Iraq is less about tactical airpower than it is about airlift capacity.

[Dogtown]

23. As I said...

:eyes:

[BunkerHill24]

12. "We are, to some extent at least, obligated to Georgia."

and for what reason? You want to risk Nato alliance with some douchebag in Georgia without a leash?


Fuck Saasfuckville, yeah, fuck him...he started it and he shall have it.

[Dogtown]

16. I want us to stay out of it!

We CAN NOT survive a real confrontation with a world power.


"We are, to some extent at least, obligated to Georgia."

Perhaps I should have typed, "Bush's State Department has obligated us, at least to some extent..." for clarity.


I DO NOT think we're the world's policeman. I think we're a blundering bully that has been out-flanked by real badasses.

I think we're fucked.


We've handed over our country to shopkeepers, and they've been tricked by warriors.

[peacetalksforall]

8. Keeps you guessing whose side PNAC is (really) on. I would say that there might

be a little bit of betrayal-revenge in play. PNAC and the Russians are playing each other? Not good. Message to the world: PNAC is not the voice of most of our people.

Where are our leaders?

[Jester Messiah]

18. Victory: they're doing it right.

Not that I agree with Russia's war aims, but they're showing the world how the thing is done.

[Igel]

26. Yes.

It's completely unacceptable, in other words.

We far prefer frozen conflicts and half measures, even if they ultimately lead to more death and destruction. Fighting them out is failure worse than resolving them.

Odd.

[bemildred]

27. You make no sense, near as I can see.

Incorrect aims done well doesn't get you far, and it never has.

[Jester Messiah]

28. Allow me to be more clear.

I am not in favor of Russia's aims, but Russia clearly is. These aims, as near as I can deduce, are as follows:

1. Bring a wayward satellite nation back into Russian dominion.
2. Cause the West in general, NATO in specific, and the USA particularly, to look weak and powerless.
3. Overturn the balance of power with regard to energy supply in Europe.
4. Finally, make the statement "Russia is back" in terms so bold that no one can mistake or deny it.

While I don't favor these aims, I can only marvel at the efficiency with which Russia is accomplishing them. Imagine, a political leadership that has a well-defined set of goals AND a plan for achieving them, that goes about it competently! Would that our own nation could accomplish such.

[bemildred]

30. Thank you.

I don't really think they care about #1 that much, in the sense that they would be perfectly happy with a somewhat smaller independent, even hostile, Georgia with Saakashvili still at the helm. An opponent that stupid needs to be preserved as long as possible. I think "overturn" is a bit strong in #3, I'm sure they think of it as finally getting their due. Your overall point I agree with, we are so used to incompetent, mumbling bureaucrats that it's a stunner to see people move with force, energy, and efficiency according to a well thought out plan. It's so different from "bomb the shit out of them and hope they see the light".

[chatnoir]

29. Georgia: Russians move into Gori, explosions heard

GORI, Georgia - Explosions were heard near Gori on Thursday as a Russian troop withdrawal from the strategic city seemed to collapse. A fragile cease-fire appeared even more shaky as Russia's foreign minister declared that the world "can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity."

The declaration from Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov came simultaneously with the announcement that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev was meeting in the Kremlin with the leaders of Georgia's two separatist provinces.

"One can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity because, I believe, it is impossible to persuade South Ossetia and Abkhazia to agree with the logic that they can be forced back into the Georgian state," Lavrov told reporters.

At least five explosions were heard near Gori. It could not immediately be determined if the blasts were a renewal of fighting between Georgian and Russian forces, but they sounded similar to mortar shells and occurred after a tense confrontation between Russian and Georgian troops on the edge of the city.

More: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080814/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia

---------------------------------------

"Next time we should invade Turkey"

Dzardzanis, Georgia - Scores of houses have been set alight outside the Georgian city of Gori as South Ossetian fighters and Russian soldiers looted homes in Georgian villages.

<snip>

Hundreds of fighters, primarily local Ossetian rebels but with some Russian army personnel mingled among them, went house to house in villages on the road toward the Georgian city of Gori, removing TV sets and other belongings.

Civilian cars, many packed with fighters holding rifles that protruded from the windows, travelled along the road heading south from South Ossetia towards Gori, while only a few vehicles were on the road heading north.

An AFP journalist who accompanied local fighters south from the rebel province to within a few kilometres of Gori in Georgia said the atmosphere was simultaneously carnivalesque and very tense.

"Take whatever you want! It's all free!" said a Russian special services soldier in wraparound sunglasses, driving a looted BMW.

"Next time we should invade Turkey. It's nice down there," said the second soldier, who wore a ski mask and drank bottles of beer with Georgian lettering on them. He threw them out half-finished, smashing them on the road.

Orchards alongside the abandoned burning homes in villages like Ergneti and Borgneti had been torched, with flames licking up the sides of houses and thick black smoke rising high into the air from many of them.

More: http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=vn20080814055748104C360490

[David__77]

31. It's too bad for the violence in Georgia.

I'm glad that the US is not the sole power internationally. However, I hope a solution is found that respects the national sovereignty of Georgia as well as the national rights of various groups.