Pro-Chavez Catholics under fire

[AlphaCentauri]

Source: BBC

Religious leaders in Venezuela have criticised a recently formed church that openly backs President Hugo Chavez's socialist politics.

The Reformed Catholic Church was set up by a group of Anglicans and Catholics who wanted to put more emphasis on helping the poor.

But the ruling body of the Catholic Church says its members are criminals who are trying to divide the Church.

The Church and the government have been in frequent conflict in Venezuela.

Catholicism is practised widely in Venezuela, but the new group's open support for President Chavez's socialist policies is deepening those divisions.



Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7491821.stm

[bobbolink]

1. GO, REFORMATION!

Oh wait... that was Marty Luther...

:rofl:

Wake up, pope... the meek are getting ready....

[maryf]

22. And the Church

Admitted years ago Martin Luther was right about nearly everything he protested...didn't change their policies...

[struggle4progress]

32. Seems possible this "church" may actually be entirely bogus. See this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=405&topic_id=5474

[struggle4progress]

33. Anglican Communion denies links with new "church"

Caracas, 02 Jul. 08 / 08:15 pm (ACI) .- In a press statement the Diocese of Venezuela for the Anglican Church, clarified that it "has no link" with the self-styled "Reformed Catholic Church" ...

"We want to put on record for the World Anglican Communion, that Leonardo Marin Saavedra, a self-styled archbishop in the so-called 'Latin American Anglican Church' is not recognized as Anglican. Being an Anglican is to be in communion with canonical Headquarters in Canterbury, England. We regret that such a confusion .. has come .. through the recent establishment of the 'Reformed Catholic Church in Venezuela'," ...

Comunión anglicana niega vínculos con nueva "iglesia chavista"
Caracas, 02 Jul. 08 / 08:15 pm ( ACI )
http://www.aciprensa.com/noticia.php?n=21801

[High Plains]

2. Liberation theology not dead after all.

Despite the reactionaries in the Vatican and the archbishoprics.

More emphasis on helping the poor is criminal? How bizarre, especially coming from the Church.

[bobbolink]

4. The O for the P.... Preferential Option For The Poor...

Necessary EVERYWHERE... and mandatory for "people of faith"

[struggle4progress]

35. Can you verify a coherent biography for any of these people or a coherent history of

the churches with which they are supposedly affiliated? They're all supposed to belong to this "Iglesia Católica Reformada de Venezuela"

I'm especially interested in any evidence whatsoever supporting your notion that these guys are actually interested in liberation theology

Jon Jen Siu García

Enrique Albornoz
Alexis Bertis
both sometimes claiming Lutheran ties

Dale Climie
calling himself Archbishop of the Conservative Anglican Church of the United States
(Iglesia Anglicana Conservativa de Estados Unidos)

Leonardo Marín
(aka Leonardo Marín-Saavedra)
calling himself Primate of the Latin-American Anglican Church
(Iglesia Anglicana Latinoamericana)

Jorge Pérez
"Bishop of México"

[EFerrari]

3. The Roman Catholic Church only survived all these centuries

by making an art form of mixing politics with religion, by taking and giving money.

"The Venezuelan Episcopal Conference, the ruling council of the Catholic Church, has described the founders as delinquents.

Its vice president, Archbishop Roberto Luckert, has accused the new organisation of taking government money and mixing politics with religion."

[AlphaCentauri]

5. the archbishop Roberto Luckert missed a picture in another parish

An odd thing happened this morning in Mexico City where Sen. John McCain is "having talks" with Mexican President Felipe Calderon.

McCain, his wife and entourage, descended upon the Basilica de Guadalupe, at 8 a.m. The Basilica is the Mexican version of Mecca for Catholics of Mexican descent. In fact, every Mexican American community in the United States has at least one church in their town named after the patron saint of Mexico.

John McCain and his wife Cindy listen to Monsignor Diego Monroy Ponce explain the miracle of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

It's a fact that should not be news to an Arizona native like Sen. McCain and for that reason, and because the Senator is Protestant, Mexican pundits were having a field day with McCain's visit to the Basilica. As one reporter who has covered many presidential campaigns said, "The Basilica is usually not on the list of presidential campaign stops."

However, when you're stumping for Mexican American votes it just might be.

According to a video report featured in the Mexico City daily El Universal, McCain was met by a young protester outside the Basilica. The student derided McCain's support of the Iraqi War and accused the candidate for only visiting the Basilica to "get votes."

http://www.politicsincolor.com/blogs/marissa-trevi%C3%B1o/373/mccains-visit-mexicos-basilica-de-guadalupe-misguided-campaign-move.html

[EFerrari]

6. I'm surprised La Virgencita didn't show up and flip him off.

I'm sure it crossed her mind. :evilgrin:

[Syntheto]

13. HOLY SHIT! BREAKING NEWS!

...A POLTICIAN USES HOLY SITE FOR PHOTO OP!
I am, frankly, SHOCKED, SHOCKED, I TELL YOU!

[a la izquierda]

12. ew. that picture just made me

throw up a little.:puke:

[madrchsod]

7. a long time ago my methodist minister

gave a sermon about how the catholic church in south america does nothing for the people to lift them out of poverity..

i guess the lord did`t mind cause he lived to be 90 years old

[EFerrari]

9. The establishment didn't. The foot soldiers did.

So, it depends on who you mean by "the church". :)

[maryf]

19. If by foot soldiers

You mean the orders, Franciscan, Benedictine, Dominican, then they have done a lot for many of the poor. Those who take the vows of poverty are out in the trenches. Many of the nuns are the same.

It was priests like the Berrigans who started the Peace movement in the 60's, Father Louis Vitale who today battles nuclear testing and torture, and Roy Bourgouis, who fights against the School of Americas, as well as other battles.

The Church organization is horrendous, their archaic stands are oppressive to say the least, but the workers who devote their lives to the cause of helping humanity are true living saints, many of them, and to denounce them because of the organizations they work under is just not right.

[EFerrari]

34. Yes, I agree with you. n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

43. Sister Ardeth Platte, Sister Carol Gilbert, Sister Jackie Hudson

An example of the foot soldiers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqkuU4_aU04



http://www.wbaltv.com/news/4523447/detail.html
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0408-02.htm

[maryf]

44. Thank you so much!!

Great examples of foot soldiers!

[bean fidhleir]

51. One foot soldier having made it as far as archbishop

"Se eu dou comida aos pobres, eles me chamam de santo. Se eu pergunto porque os pobres não têm comida, eles me chamam de comunista."

Dom Hélder Câmara

[defendandprotect]

8. Remember their support for Franco and Hitler . . .

And even no so long ago, the Pope before this one . . . John Paul . . . went before

the Italian government to tell them that they have to "MAKE Italian women have more

babies" . . . !!!

Why . . . ?

Because corporations needed the future labor --- !!!


Organized patriarchal religions are the underpinning for patriarchy and capitalism . . .

[mitchum]

17. They are the world's longest running corrupt international corporation

[defendandprotect]

27. I agree . . .

And quite a little money-maker -- !!!

Love, George Carlin on the subject of religiion ---


I don't know how interested you are in this subject, but one day I noticed that some guy
with the last name of "Dulles" was rising in the church. Turned out he was a nephew of
Allen Dulles. The guy is now in the Vatican.

At some point I also read an opinion that the Pope before this one --- John Paul/? --
was the first CIA Pope. Also, evidently the Catholic Church's intelligence vies the CIA's!
I can see that would be of interest to the US . . . in the sense of taking it over.

...and I thought it was all about sexual abuse of children!

[Peace Patriot]

10. God, how disgusting! And it's all about taking oil profits from the poor!

McCain's there to see how the privatization of Mexico's oil is going, and how these two mediocrities can sell out and squash the people in both countries. Can you imagine how that conversation went:

Felipe: Hey, John, hombre, you want to borrow my brother's electronic vote counter? It's amazing what these whiz kids come up with!

John: No, thanks, we've got our own. But gracias, gracias! You're a buddy to think of me.

Felipe: Bueno, bueno! But then we have some pretty stupid people, too, in Mexico--our oil engineers! I can't wait to have Exxon Mobil in here, and we start singing that ol' song--"drill-drill, drill-drill out the oil..."

John: Ah! You mean, "Bomb-bomb, bomb-bomb Iran!"

Felipe: Yeah, that one!

Felipe (getting down): Drill-drill, drill-drill out that oil!

John: (castanets) Bomb-bomb, bomb-bomb Iran!

Exuent, singing.

Our Lady of Guadalupe: (throws her eyes to Heaven--to "Rhonda") Help me, Hugo! Help-help me, Hugo! (doodly-doodly, doodly-doodly, DOODLY-DOODLY, DOODLY-DOODLY) Help! ... Help!

[Larkspur]

11. I bet the Venezuelan Catholic Church hierarchy is composed mostly of

those from the old corrupt ruling class, you know the ones who tried to overthrow Chavez in a coup.

[Donnachaidh]

14. oh most definitely

The types who *buy* the best pews in the house, and regularly *buy* masses to be said for sick and dying members of their families. The Catholic Church got into trouble the last time trying to play King Kong over *territory*. Guess they haven't learned a damn thing from history.

[defendandprotect]

30. Wasn't it unbelievable . . .

that they covered up that painting by Picasso -- when Powell came to speak!!!

Fear of the painting --- nothing like ART to show us truth!!!

[happyslug]

39. That was the UN NOT the Catholic Church

THe picture in #11, which you refer to is in the UN, which was covered up when Powell made his comments in Saddam, Iraq and the need for war. You thread implied it was the Catholic Church that covered up the painting, just clarifying WHO covered the painting.

[defendandprotect]

47. Of course I know it was the UNITED NATIONS . . .

Did Powell appear at the Catholic Church to deliver his comments?

Where did I imply the Catholic Church covered up the painting . . . ???

[happyslug]

50. You were responding to a thread about the Catholic Church

You were responding to the following:

"I bet the Venezuelan Catholic Church hierarchy is composed mostly of those from the old corrupt ruling class, you know the ones who tried to overthrow Chavez in a coup".

Picasso picture was below that statement, you then said

"Wasn't it unbelievable . . .that they covered up that painting by Picasso -- when Powell came to speak!!!

Fear of the painting --- nothing like ART to show us truth!!!"

You did NOT identify who you meant by "they", since the previous plural noun was "Venezuelan Catholic Church hierarchy", by the rule of word construction, "they" meant the "Venezuelan Catholic Church hierarchy" NOT the UN, who is NOT mentioned in the these threads. Chavez is actually mentioned after the "Venezuelan Catholic Church hierarchy" but before you use the word "they", but I assume when you used a plural pronoun you did NOT mean a single person like Chavez, thus I had to assume "they" meant the "Venezuelan Catholic Church hierarchy" since that was the last plural group mentioned by anyone in the threads.

I can NOT read your mind who you meant by "they", pronouns are only to be used AFTER the person or persons are named who the pronoun is for. The reason for this rule is to avoid the confusion I had when I read your thread, by using the word "they" who did you mean? Chavez? The Venezuelan Catholic Church hierarchy? I could throw in Picasso, but you only mention Picasso and Powell AFTER you used the word "they", so "they" can not mean them. These are the only people named in the threads and thus the only person the pronoun "they" can be.

I have had the language police attack some of my threads, but the abuse of pronouns leads to confusion. Now a lot of people use pronouns instead of names and this has occurred for centuries (Thus why we have separate pronouns for men, women and even things, i.e. he, her and it) but when one use a pronoun make sure your reader know who you are referring to, do NOT make them have to guess who "they" are.

Do NOT assume people know who you meant by "they". I suspected you meant someone other then the Catholic Church given that you were referring to the picture, but the sentence does NOT show that to be the case. Thus my comment, someone had to define "they" since you did NOT, and the rule is a pronoun refers to the previous person named NOT some mystical person whose name is unknown to us mere readers.

[defendandprotect]

53. You will also notice I said this . . .

when Powell came to speak!!!


Powell, of course, went to the United Nations to try to prove reasons for attacking Iraq --

at that time, they covered up the painting.


WHEN did Powell speak at a Catholic Church where they covered up the painting of Picasso???

Who else has the original of this painting?

Rather confusing to speak with you --

hope we do better next time --


:eyes:

[MasonJar]

15. How could any religion dispute helping the poor, especially one

purportedly Christian. Helping the poor was one of Jesus' most basic tenets. Also Rome, I'm afraid that Jesus was against the moneychangers in the temple. What would he think of your holdings and riches going to trappings and not those who really need them? Long live Chavez and all those who try to help the unfortunate.

[AngryOldDem]

45. The Church has always taken a dim view of liberation theology.

Liberation theology has its strongest base in Latin as well as South America, for obvious reasons.

When you get right down to it, liberation theology puts into practice in the purest form what Christ taught; in addition to helping the poor, it also means talking truth to power, and thus challenging the powers-that-be, as Christ also did. Trouble is, the Church often counts itself among those powers-that-be, and hence is not very warm toward liberation theology and those who advance it.

Sad, but don't forget the Church is also a bureaucracy as power-hungry and power-driven as any other institution and bureaucracy out there.

[redqueen]

46. Yes... one might think this sort of thing would serve as a clue

as to which "Christian" churches are truly interested spreading Christ's message... and which are more concerned with... other things.

[bertman]

16. . . . and he said unto them, "Go and sell all that you own and give to the poor. . ."

Holy moley


That guy sounds like a frickin communista.


Who was that guy anyway???



Must've been Hugo H. Christ.

[ret5hd]

24. a photo i took in Caracas:

[Connonym]

18. I'm a recovering Catholic and I say split the damned church already

the antiquated antiwomen/anti-birth control catholics have no relevance in 21st century life.

[pegleg]

20. My guess is Chevez is just another two-bit dictator trying to start

a state-run church he can control. Very common throughout history.

[Judi Lynn]

23. Post sources for your claims Chavez is a dictator. You need some proof for that.

How many state-run churches are we supposed to remember? Can you name one?

[Andrushka]

25. Could be waiting a long time, Judi

You know how these "hit and runners" operate. Come to a Ven thread, pull some BS out their ass, and run.

Anyway, this news wouldn't have gone down well in the upper echelons of Andrés Bello Catholic University. Makes a change from "helping the rich get richer" - they definitely be unhappy.

[Judi Lynn]

29. They never make one bit of sense, either, as you've noticed! Jeez. n/t

[pegleg]

26. Chavez has shut down many media outlets which criticize him

and an example of a state run church would be the Chinese catholic church.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/may/23/venezuela.broadcasting

[Judi Lynn]

28. Apparently you either haven't bothered to do any reading on the subject or you are attempting to

spread some prime disinformation.

Here's some help you can use:

Media Advisory
Coup Co-Conspirators as Free-Speech Martyrs
Distorting the Venezuelan media story

5/25/07

~snip~
In keeping with the media script that has bad guy Chávez brutishly silencing good guys in the democratic opposition, all these articles skimmed lightly over RCTV's history, the Venezuelan government's explanation for the license denial and the process that led to it.

RCTV and other commercial TV stations were key players in the April 2002 coup that briefly ousted Chávez's democratically elected government. During the short-lived insurrection, coup leaders took to commercial TV airwaves to thank the networks. "I must thank Venevisión and RCTV," one grateful leader remarked in an appearance captured in the Irish film The Revolution Will Not Be Televised. The film documents the networks’ participation in the short-lived coup, in which stations put themselves to service as bulletin boards for the coup—hosting coup leaders, silencing government voices and rallying the opposition to a march on the Presidential Palace that was part of the coup plotters strategy.

On April 11, 2002, the day of the coup, when military and civilian opposition leaders held press conferences calling for Chávez's ouster, RCTV hosted top coup plotter Carlos Ortega, who rallied demonstrators to the march on the presidential palace. On the same day, after the anti-democratic overthrow appeared to have succeeded, another coup leader, Vice-Admiral Victor Ramírez Pérez, told a Venevisión reporter (4/11/02): "We had a deadly weapon: the media. And now that I have the opportunity, let me congratulate you."

That commercial TV outlets including RCTV participated in the coup is not at question; even mainstream outlets have acknowledged as much. As reporter Juan Forero, Jackson Diehl's colleague at the Washington Post, explained (1/18/07), "RCTV, like three other major private television stations, encouraged the protests," resulting in the coup, "and, once Chávez was ousted, cheered his removal." The conservative British newspaper the Financial Times reported (5/21/07), " officials argue with some justification that RCTV actively supported the 2002 coup attempt against Mr. Chávez."

As FAIR's magazine Extra! argued last November, "Were a similar event to happen in the U.S., and TV journalists and executives were caught conspiring with coup plotters, it’s doubtful they would stay out of jail, let alone be allowed to continue to run television stations, as they have in Venezuela."

More:
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3107

DU discussions on RCTV:
Venezuelan TV Station Heads to Cable
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2913599#2917085

Venezuelans protest Chavez's TV move
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2860244

Lots of other threads available if you take a moment to search. The topic has been discussed ad nauseum here, and the right-wing visitors have ALWAYS lost.

As for your reference to the Chinese Catholic Church, I'll take your word for it. Have never heard of this.

Maybe you'd like to explain how it is you predict Hugo Chavez will have a state-controlled church.

He has always been a Catholic. Venezuela is a Catholic country. Can't begin to see you have any part of a valid point here.

[pegleg]

31. It appears to me you are the one spreading disinformation.

there are simply too many sources which report to the contrary.

[Selatius]

37. Most of those sources are simply carrying stories put out by other outlets. AP, for instance.

They simply carry stories put out by other networks. Just because articles show up on several continents does not mean that they are factually correct. Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting has been pretty spot on in terms of criticism of both sides. I don't see a reason to dismiss it out of hand as propaganda posted by Judi Lynn.

Besides, the specific facts mentioned in that FAIR article are verifiable. RCTV did host people who led a violent military coup to overthrow a democratically elected government.

[Judi Lynn]

38. Reporting to the contrary? Would you explain what in my article is contradicted by FACTS?

Your opinion is not good enough. Please provide a REPUTABLE source dealing with reality, not spin.

You need to come up with some references. You can't shout down the facts.

[Tempest]

41. Don't get worked up, Judi

He's not worth it.

[Tempest]

40. And yet you failed to provide even one

It's obvious who's spreading disinformation here.

[maryf]

21. More power to them!

Hope they hold strong!

[provis99]

36. so the Church forefathers of fascist ideology don't like Chavez?

Why am I not surprised?

Has the Catholic Church excommunicated any of those old European fascists and Nazis yet?

Why the heck anyone could be a member of such a right wing organization, yet call themselves a liberal, is beyond me. Its like meeting communist members of the John Birch Society.

[happyslug]

42. Sounds like the Catholic Church view this as an internal dispute, more than anything else.

Even a Conservative Site, mentioned that Venezuela has a long history of "establishing" "Reform" Catholic Churches for they own purposes, using de-flocked and other "Disgraced" priests as leaders of these new Churches.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/miami_dade/story/587067.html
http://zenit.org/article-23108?l=english

Thus this is more a Defense of the Catholic Church then an attack on Chavez. The Church itself views it as an internal matter, i.e. "Who is a Catholic" more then any opposition to Chavez. Given that this "Reformed Catholic Church" was formed only in June 2008 AFTER Chavez's proposed Constitutional Changes were defeated, seems to support this (i.e. The "Reformed" Church NOT involved in the proposed Changes, but came out of the opposition of the Catholic Church to some of the proposed changes implies both groups, the traditional hierarchy and the leaders of the Reform Church view this as an internal Catholic issue NOT a Church vs State issue).

The term "delinquents" as used in the BBC report also implies the Venezuelan Catholic Church Hierarchy views this as an internal Catholic dispute NOT a Church-State Dispute. The only issue the Hierarchy brings up is an accusation that the money for the "Reform Catholic Church" is coming from the State via the state's Oil monopoly NOT from parishioners themselves.

[damntexdem]

48. So it's CRIMINAL to start a new church?

That attitude is a very good sign that a new church is needed.

[Judi Lynn]

49. Absolutely! The sooner, the better. Who on earth would normally brand people as criminals

who're concerned in creating a church which considers the needs of the helpless, the lonely, the needy?

Holy smokes!

[redqueen]

52. Indeed.

:kick: