Google loses big in H-1B lottery as Congress gets new visa push

[OhioChick]

Source: Computer World

Senate bill would allow advance degree holders to get green cards

June 5, 2008 (Computerworld) WASHINGTON -- The effort in Congress to make it easier for tech companies to hire foreign nationals gained support today from two U.S. senators who are pushing a bill to give foreign nationals who earn advanced degrees in the U.S. permanent residency.

The latest measure comes as one large tech employer, Google Inc., complained, publicly, that 90 of its 300 H-1B applications were rejected in the government lottery for visas. The U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) held a lottery after receiving 163,000 applications for 85,000 visas (download PDF). That figure includes 20,000 visas set aside for advanced degree holders.

The Senate legislation, unveiled today by Sens. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.) and Judd Gregg (R-N.H.), will allow foreign national graduates of U.S. universities to receive Green Cards, or permanent resident status -- as long as they have a job offer.

Details about the legislation were not immediately available, but the Senate measure is a companion bill to legislation already introduced in the U.S. House of Representatives (HR 6039 by Rep. Zoe Lofgren, (D-Calif.), a spokesman for Boxer's office said today.



Read more: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9094118&intsrc=hm_list

---

Boxer and Gregg Introduce Bill to Reverse High-Tech Brain Drain
http://boxer.senate.gov/news/releases/record.cfm?id=298804




I already heard about Rep. Zoe Lofgren.....but Sen. Barbara Boxer??

[ChromeFoundry]

1. Why would anyone in CA re-elect Barbara Boxer?

A lot of people have lost their jobs in Silicon Valley... and she is feed-bagging more of the same.

What lobbyists donated to her campaign???

[OhioChick]

2. Email her...

I just did...

https://boxer.senate.gov/contact/email/policy.cfm

[ChromeFoundry]

4. Found it....

Quite a bit of baggage...


Cisco
Intel
Comcast
Boeing
Viacom
Siemens
AT&T
Covad
Time Warner
Blue Cross Blue Shield
E*Trade
QualComm
T-Mobile
BellSouth
EBay
Genentech
MCI
Hewlett Packard
FedEx
SAP
National Semiconductor
Yahoo
SILICON VALLEY LEADERSHIP PAC FEDERAL
MICROSOFT CORPORATION
SONY
RAYTHEON COMPANY

Full list here: http://www.campaignmoney.com/committee.asp?candidateid=S2CA00286&cycle=04&cnt=166&amt=604759&cname=Barbara+Boxer

[OhioChick]

7. Yeah, I'd say she's "owned." n/t

[shanti]

5. because

she's done much more good than harm.

[ChromeFoundry]

6. in your opinion

not in the opinion of the person that just got replaced by an H-1b that accepted less pay.

[undeterred]

11. You're my hero.

You helped me get rid of IE Antivirus :hi:

[shanti]

13. ok

:shrug:

[Greyhound]

57. Just one more thing she has in common with Hillary Clinton, abandoning her constituents,

in favor of her donors.

The H-1(b) visa was supposed to fill jobs that could not be filled by Americans, instead, it has been used to create an underpaid slave class and to destroy the profession.

It is supposed to be illegal to fire somebody in order to replace them with a low-paid H-1(b) visa holder, yet is has been done tens of millions of times and nobody will enforce the law. The H-1(b) holders themselves are often subjected to nothing less than virtual slavery as they dare not complain. If they do, the company simply fires them and they are on the next plane back to Bangalore.

OTOH, she has done some good and I would see both Feinstein and Pelosi replaced before I'd worry about Boxer, and if the citizens of California ever did kick those two out, Boxer would be free to much better than she has been allowed to do, by the party, than she has.

[OhioChick]

69. Good Example:

DOJ settles H-1B job ad case for $45,000

Complaint filed by Programmers Guild over H-1B-only job ad

May 2, 2008 (Computerworld) A Pittsburgh-based computer consulting company that advertised for H-1B visa holders only is paying $45,000 in civil penalties to settle allegations that it discriminated against U.S. citizens, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) said Thursday.

The company, iGate Mastech Inc., placed 30 job announcements between May and June of 2006 "for computer programmers that expressly favored H-1B visa holders to the exclusion of U.S. citizens, lawful permanent residents and other legal U.S. workers," the DOJ said in a statement.

A complaint against iGate Mastech was filed by the Programmers Guild in 2006. It was one of dozens of complaints lodged by the Summit, N.J.-based organization against various companies.

John Miano, who founded the guild, said in a statement that the DOJ's announcement was "is probably the most visible result" of the guild's campaign against companies that discriminate against U.S. workers "in favor of cheap H-1B workers."

One job advertisement by iGate Mastech for a Java developer on Dice Holdings Inc.'s job board said "Only H-1s apply, and should be willing to transfer H-1B."

"The problem of companies only looking for H-1B workers is a serious one," said Miano. "We are only scratching the surface right now with the companies that are brazen enough to put out ads like these."


http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9081898&intsrc=hm_list

[ihavenobias]

3. K & R

[OhioChick]

8. Good (Comment) Letter to Sen. Boxer on ComputerWorld

Dear Senator Boxer:

Your bill awarding green cards to foreigners with advanced degrees from US universities seems to be an admission that you believe Americans cannot achieve as much as foreigners.

There are plenty of Americans with advanced degrees in high tech areas who cannot find a job because of competition from foreigners. There are also plenty of Americans in K-12 who COULD achieve far more than they are achieving if the US changed some of its policies.
A single parent who has to work two jobs to provide a roof and food for his/her children, because minimum wage is ridiculously low, simply does not have adequate time to sit with children and help them with their homework.

Parents are the backbone of our educational system - if parents cannot show their support for education and the importance of education by helping their children with homework, we will have yet another generation which is poorly educated and fails to see the value of education. It does not matter if the best teacher in the world is in front of a class - if the child is not being shown by a parent's actions that education is important, that child will not achieve the same level of success s/he would have otherwise.

We need to support American families - through higher minimum wages, more government-provided health care (including preventative dental for minors), a tax system which does not disproportionately affect lower and middle income workers (and instead, expects that those with greater discretionary incomes pay more), and other appropriate government programs.

The US is at the bottom of the developed world in terms of supporting families - it should be no wonder that children fail to achieve in school when parents are exhausted by financial stress and working multiple jobs.

Is your plan to simply import educated individuals, while Americans continue to fail to achieve academically?

http://www.computerworld.com/comments/node/9094118

[1]

9. i don't get it...

explain this to me.

if a person charges across the border and takes a job. a job "americans" won't do... then we salute that fellow and say he is just trying to provide for his family and better his life. god bless and salute.

but if a person charges across the border with a h1-b visa, for the exact same reasons... all of a sudden we don't like him?


why? he is just trying to provide for his family and better his life. god bless and salute.

right?

[undeterred]

10. A job Americans won't do?

We're talking about high paying computer jobs that loads of Americans badly need and want. Corporations save money by bringing someone from India in on a H1B visa, paying them 60K instead of the 75 or 80K they are worth in the market. Saying there are no Americans who want or are qualified for these jobs is a scam. There are plenty of us who want those jobs.

[SergeyDovlatov]

12. I don't get it

Just because a person was not lucky enough to be born in this country, why he should not be able to pursue his life dream and come to work in the one of the best countries of the world?

[undeterred]

20. Come on over, but not as part of a scam

that makes American workers unemployed.

[SergeyDovlatov]

28. Is there a way to come over here?

* student visa (must go back home unless you find work and switch to H1-B)
* marriage
* exceptional abilities (artist / sports / science)
* family unification (US citizens sponsoring their parents, siblings, children for US citizenship)
* coming on visitor visa (going illegal after 6 month waiting for amnesty)
* coming on visitor visa and filing for political asylum
* visa lottery (DIV) (about 50,000 every year)
* H-1B (must have employer sponsorship, limited to 65,000 a year)

In other words, a person that does not have relatives in the US, not getting married to US citizen, and not a famous artist / scientist / sportsman, the only legal way for him to come to US with the hope to become a US citizen is either through DIV visa lottery or H-1B via lottery.

Chances to win DIV are very small about 1 in 200.
Chances of getting H-1B sponsorship are slim too, but better if you have a good resume and job searching skills and even then you are competing for limited number of visas.

[undeterred]

29. Gee, that's rough.

But its hard for me to find much sympathy for a non-citizen when so many American citizens are unemployed because of the H1B visa program, which is a scam, and outsourcing our tech and call center jobs to other countries.

[SergeyDovlatov]

32. I understand.

There are definitely H-1B visa scams, like fake companies that are set up just to bring people over and then release them "into the wild" after 3-6 years after they got their green cards.

Outsourcing is, in part, result of limited H-1B slots available. If you find a candidate that you wanted to bring to US but could not due to H-1B visa limits, you can hire him at an offshore location and employ him there.

My feeling is that what you are arguing, if followed to its logical conclusion, means that you would like to close the country to foreigners that can compete with you in your line of occupation.

[undeterred]

33. The truth is there is no "competition"

for the best worker involved when the company goes directly to the H1B visa program to fill their job and never offers it to an American. If there were a level playing field it would be different, but Americans are bypassed altogether.

[ChromeFoundry]

43. You are absolutely correct!

I have worked at companies that employ these exact tactics. There are tons of excellent IT workers, working out of their field at this very moment because too many American companies are looking to pay the absolute minimum. Many of the workers coming here on H-1b are of lesser talent than local college grads. When they cannot find cheap labor via the H-1b pool, they go offshore.

Simplest solution is to boycott their products and services. That will stop it immediately... but getting even a fraction of the population to hold true to that is like pulling teeth. Look at the autoworkers; the "Buy American" campaign didn't work out for them... everyone still bought foreign manufactured cars. Many people still shop at Wal-mart (I understand that some people have no choice in this matter). The country is being sold off to the lowest bidder and nobody seems to give a damn.

[Deja Q]

74. Which may or may not be true.

"The country is being sold off to the lowest bidder and nobody seems to give a damn."

[KillCapitalism]

31. From what I understand...

India has a MUCH lower unemployment rate than the US, and India's standard of living is rising quickly, so why come to a country where the standard of living is actually DECREASING.

[smitra]

45. Not the case...

According to the CIA World Factbook, India's unemployment rate is 7.2% (2007 estimate - the Govt. does not publish a monthly unemployment rate as in the US). That is higher than the 5.5% reportd today for the US.

Despite the standard of living in India rising (mainly in the cities, and that too mostly for people in the upper-middle class), life in a typical city in India is still more difficult - much more - than in a city in the US. The rise is only relative to what it was in the relatively recent past.

[1]

14. i think you misunderstood me...

"a job americans won't do" is a euphemism for "a job americans won't do for that unbelievably low wage you are offering."

my point was, "saying there are no americans who want or are qualified for these jobs is a scam." applies equally to the "the 75 or 80K they are worth in the market" jobs as it does to the construction, electrical, drywall, etc. jobs that those entering this country illegally are securing. no?

you weep for the h1-b jobs you lose. ok. me too.

but check your weep at the door when the amazing amount of other jobs are lost to "those that are just trying to better their lives".


tell me, undeterred... what is it?

[undeterred]

19. Most unemployed programmers would happily

take the job at 60K rather than have no job at all. They aren't given that choice. In 2001, while there were thousands of unemployed computer programmers looking for work, they were bypassed completely by foreigners brought over on these visas. Almost everyone in the computer industry took a cut in pay if they had a job.

The corporations said they could not find Americans to take these jobs, and that is a lie. The positions were never even advertised, never interviewed for, turned down by no one.

[1]

50. i so totally get complaints on this thread...

if they are taking YOUR job. via h1-b. then all of us should be pissed. outraged!

if they are taking MY job. without a visa. then that's just people wanting to better their lives.


fuck you.

[OhioChick]

52. First Off....

No one is "taking" jobs, CEO's and Execs are responsible for job loss.

Secondly, I can sympathize with you. Blue collar, as well as white collar jobs are being lost in droves for the U.S. Worker. It's a crime, to say the least.

Thanks to outsourcing/offshoring/insourcing, H-1B's, NAFTA, CAFTA, etc., were're all being screwed.

Seeing the recent unemployment numbers (which I'm sure don't count those who no longer qualify for unemployment) I'm appalled.

[1]

60. ok, i see your first point...

but i always see my job as being "given" or "taken" by those who employ me. i am as angry at them as are you.

was some of my anger directed at those who now do what i used to do?

yeah. i'm human.

my point was that there seems to be general agreement here that a job lost to an h1-b visa is an atrocity, but a job lost to someone just walking across the border has something to do with "huddled masses yearning to breathe free." just because it's not your job that is lost, but mine.

you can't have it both ways.

either open the whole thing up, and let everybody from wherever compete for every job here, (unlimited h1-b's, no borders) which i must say sounds like a totally republican/corporation position to take... (to drive wages/salaries down.)

or

stop h1-b's and stop those wandering across the border from being allowed to secure jobs that folks that live here can and will do.



to your point, we should shut down corporations and companies that participate in that. i am on your side.


i seem to be on the outside here. i want americans to benefit from jobs in america.

[OhioChick]

62. You're not on the outside....

With me, anyway.

"i want americans to benefit from jobs in america."

Agreed.

[Deja Q]

70. RIGHT ON!

:yourock:

Hell, for some of those jobs, I'd do it for $60k too. I'm not greedy.

[OhioChick]

21. With the U.S. economy

In the shape it's in with higher and higher unemployment numbers coming in month after month, (as a matter of fact, I believe the unemployment numbers should be in today) I don't think it's time to bring in foreign help. U.S. citizens should be taken care of first....then bring in extra help. Too many foreclosures, credit problems, etc. to be taking drastic measures such as this, now. The jobs that teenagers and young adults once took are now being taken by adults.

At this time, a program such as this is a CEO's dream, but an American worker's nightmare. When other country's economies are in a near-depression state, do they enact programs such as this? :shrug:

[fujiyama]

15. This is actually good news

Rather than keeping people here on temporary worker visas and string them along (meanwhile likely keeping wages lower), we will now give give them the chance to contribute to the US for the long term. Many will eventually become citizens and will be productive members of society.

Some here on this board obviously want to close the borders completely and kick out all brown people or non citizens...and since Indians "steal" higher paying jobs, they are worthy of a lot of bashing.

[OhioChick]

23. Everyone on this thread

Seem to be be talking about the current state of the economy, as well as high unemployment numbers. I saw no one make mention of Indians "stealing" jobs or "kicking out all the brown people" except for you. The blame is put on greedy U.S. corporations, not the people of India.

This "is" good news for foreign workers (and CEO's) but bad news for the average U.S. worker.

At the moment (and for years) it's no secret that India is the #1 outsourcing destination for U.S. Corporations. As the wages of Indians increase (which they are) another country will soon take India's place. Cheaper destinations are already being sought out as we speak.

[Deja Q]

71. Such as Russia, who is currently claiming the US is the cause of the global economy's state.

and the people of India are most certainly not the problem. Like the rest of us, they want livelihoods.

[brentspeak]

40. The ol' bogus "xenophobe" accusation apparantly just won't die

Because obviously, the real reason American citizens are outraged over the visa program isn't because their livelihoods are slipping away, but rather because American citizens are xenophobic racists. You sure figured it all out.

:sarcasm:

[rdenney]

53. Wait until YOUR job and/or wages are cut then come back here...

you probably think you are immune, but you will be affected negatively unless you are a CEO or filthy rich. This isnt about racism or hate for non-Americans, its about survival for millions of US citizens.

[Skittles]

54. isn't it strange

how so many DUers fail to see that AMERICANS includes BROWN PEOPLE!!!

[OhioChick]

55. Good Point. n/t

[rdenney]

59. What point would that be? nt

[OhioChick]

61. That there are many US Citizens that this affects....

White, black, brown, etc., etc., etc.

[rdenney]

64. I never said there were not. I said US citizens, meaning all of us no matter what color. nt

[OhioChick]

67. ????

Exactly what I agreed with in post #55, and again in post #61.

What is your point, exactly?

[rdenney]

58. Did I say ANYTHING about brown, white, black or any other race? No, I said "US Citizen"

wake up and get real.

If you want to point the finger, remember you have three pointing back at YOU!

[Skittles]

56. you don't get it

I work with brown people - yes, and native-born INDIAN people - who are AMERICANS and are SICK OF THIS SHIT TOO.

[OhioChick]

63. Funny you mentioned that.....

I work with a very kind Indian lady who is here on an H-1B. She's AGAINST raising the cap, as she says it will eventually lower HER wages. We often discuss this and she's right....it will.

[Deja Q]

72. What are you smoking and can the rest of us have some?

I'll pass. I don't inhale illegal substances. Or even legal ones such as Elmer's glue.

[DemReadingDU]

16. My company sent staff to India and Mexico to train foreigners

to assist us in our jobs.

What happened was that we got laid off from our nice computer programming jobs, and the people in India and Mexico were hired to do our jobs for less money.

[OhioChick]

22. Yet, CEO's

Complain it's due to not being able to "find" U.S. workers. Yeah, right. :sarcasm:

[babylonsister]

17. K$R. nt

[high density]

18. It's already quite hard enough for non-foreign national graduates to get entry level jobs

These are the most crucial jobs and we cannot have foreigners competing for them. It's already nearly impossible to find entry level tech jobs because of the number of experienced people out there who are out of work.

[snot]

24. I don't understand why the corps. aren't just offering the same jobs at

the same lower pay to Americans? If Americans would take the same jobs at the same lower pay, why are the corps incurring the additional effort and expense of importing workers?

Are there other factors, such as, e.g., if they hire non-U.S. citizens, they don't have to pay Social Security, workers' comp., health insurance etc.? In which case, it really is much cheaper for them to hire non-U.S. cititzens, and that's the inequity that needs to be addressed.

[high density]

25. OK, this is rich

I emailed Sen. Boxer and told her what a poor idea her legislation was, and then her email auto responder told me that I wouldn't get a response because I'm not a resident of California. OK, fine, I'm sure every senator is set up the same way.

If she can't have a staffer spend time responding to emails from out of state, why is she taking the time to introduce legislation that benefits foreign nationals? :mad:

Foreign nationals: Clearly more important to Boxer than Americans who are concerned about legislation that will affect them.

[OhioChick]

26. I got the same automated response....

Went here....just use a CA zip code....then tell her your thoughts, as well as where you're from.

http://www.barbaraboxer.com/contact

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. Exactly. She doesn't represent you, but she does represent the businesses who want cheap labor. n/t

[tbyg52]

27. There is no doubt in my mind

that Google could find enough workers that meet its standards right here, if it wanted to.

[AzDar]

30. Jeebus.

:kick:

[AzDar]

46. Kickin' this again ...new unemployment numbers make this even more egregious.

:mad:

[SergeyDovlatov]

34. Let me get this straight... People on DU support Tancredo on immigration?

Reviewing the posts in these thread, it seems that the majority share Tom Tancredo view on immigration.

Which was a moratorium on legal immigration to this country.

By attacking H-1B, you are attacking the only way for a person (not being born in US or having US relatives or exceptionally able) to come to this country legally.

[OhioChick]

35. Tom Tancredo's

Forte is "illegal immigration."

http://tancredo.house.gov/issue_details.aspx?IID=7

The article being discussed is that of H-1B visas. Completely different.

Dick Durbin (D) and Chuck Grassley (R) have introduced a reform bill to protect American Workers.

DURBIN AND GRASSLEY INTRODUCE FIRST BIPARTISAN H-1B VISA REFORM BILL TO PROTECT AMERICAN WORKERS

http://durbin.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=271783

Dennis Kucinich is completely against the H-1B visa program and wants to end it.

http://www.techcrunch.com/presidential/candidate.php?candidate=26

With the current state of our economy (near depression) and so many unemployed American workers, now is not the time to be hiking the H-1B cap. That would be ludicrous, especially with so many American IT workers unemployed.

On edit to add: Unemployment numbers from May came out today.

Unemployment rate jumps to 5.5 percent in May (biggest monthly rise since 1986)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3341366&mesg_id=3341366

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3341140

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3341158

Apparently, it's a big deal as there are many threads discussing it.

[SergeyDovlatov]

36. true ... though I was talking about moratorium on legal immigration

I was mostly refering to his stance on moratorium on legal immigration he was talking during debates and introduced in the house:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:HR00946:@@@L&summ2=m&

Mass Immigration Reduction Act

Tancredo introduced the Mass Immigration Reduction Act. The act would have imposed an indefinite moratorium on immigration to the United States. About 300,000 total legal immigrants would have been allowed into the country annually for at least the first five years of the act and, after that, until such time as there were fewer than 10,000 illegal immigrants entering per year. When those conditions were met, immigration would only have been allowed at whatever level the president and both houses of Congress agreed would have no adverse impact on wages, housing, the environment , or schools. When last introduced in 2003, the bill had 11 cosponsors.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. Yay for Dennis. Yet again. n/t

[OhioChick]

51. He seems to be one of the "few"

On the side of the American Worker.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

44. There's still sponsorship by companies, no? -nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. How did the party of the working american get on the wrong side of this?

And how the hell do we continue getting our asses handed to us because of it?

Our economy cannot support the influx of immigration, both legitimate and illegitimate. In 2001 the employment to population ratio was 73%, today it is 71% and the reason for the difference is entirely due to immigration.

The whole rationale behind H1-b visas is that our schools cannot train enough techy-types to fill the jobs in US industry. The bill that Barbara Boxer is promoting gives the student visa holder (who was accepted to a US college to which a taxpaying American student was rejected) permanent legal status to hold a job that aforementioned American student would have otherwise performed.

It's fucking bullshit. How the hell can we let Tom Tancredo be right about this? Immigration from all sources should stop until it can be demonstrated by runaway wage inflation that our economy needs the additional labor, and DEMOCRATS should be the ones leading the charge.

[rdenney]

65. Amen to that! Unfortunately many Dem's seem to view shutting down immigration as "racist". nt

[closeupready]

75. Bill Clinton.

n/t

[scisyhp1]

37. How is that "Google loses big"

when they got 210 out of 300 application (70%) approved in a lottery
for 85,000 with 163,000 applications (52% chance of winning)?
Should it not say "Google wins big in the lottery for H1-B visas"?

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

38. How the H-1B lottery works

It's not that every petition picked "wins." It's that, out of the thousands of petitions received, only a certain number of them is randomly selected. Then, each selected petition is reviewed by an adjudicating officer and judged on whether the petitioner and beneficiary meet the many conditions of the H-1B visa.

As for me, despite my many years of experience in immigration, I have stopped completely commenting on posts about immigration, because most people - including 90% of the ones who post on DU - are totally ignorant about the immigration process and how relatively difficult and expensive it is to obtain a visa, such as the H-1B. It seems strange to me - a legal immigrant and, to this date, a green card holder - that legal immigration is being decried, while unrestricted immigration and amnesty for those in the country illegally are highly favored.

The objective of U.S. immigration is to import the best and the brightest. Despite what is posted on DU or by the media, not everyone who obtains an H-1B visa is in IT. The H visa classification is one of the major points of entry for badly needed nurses, teachers and other professionals including architects, designers, mathematicians, and so on, even including fashion models. One of the main prerequisites of the H visa (except for fashion models) is the attainment of a degree equivalent to a U.S. bachelor's degree. It is very expensive for companies to hire H-1B non-immigrants. The filing fees alone are about $2-3K per worker, not including the attorney fees.

While I don't discount that some employers circumvent the law and try to employ non-U.S. workers at lower wages, I have not seen that in my career, which spans a decade. I have worked on behalf of multinational corporations as well as mom-and-pop companiesd and I have yet to see the abuse of the H program. One of the other conditions of the H-1B is that the salary paid to the worker must be 100% of the prevailing wage for that job in that particular geographic area. The prevailing wage that's most frequently used is the Department of Labor's own wage and is freely available online for anyone to see at http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesWizardStart.aspx.

[SergeyDovlatov]

39. seconded - n/t

[brentspeak]

41. Oh, so as someone working in the immigration law sector...

you sure don't have any self-interest here.

:sarcasm:

[OhioChick]

42. Yeah....Talk about a vested interest. n/t

[many a good man]

66. That's my experience as well ( IT manager, not lawyer)

H-1B visa holders may be more docile, but they are NOT less expensive.

We recently did a big conversion of consultants to staff and almost all of them were H-1B visa holders, mostly from India. The only money we saved was by cutting out the middle man - the recruiting companies that take a huge slice of commissions for each consultant they place. The workers earn the exact same pay scale as any American. The only difference is we now don't have to pay the extra 30-50% fee for the placement. It's interesting to note the guy I hired was not being paid any less by his company than we are now paying him.

HR and Legal opposed it every step of the way because it entailed a lot more work for them but overall it saved money because we cut out the middle man. All these workers had been with us for several years and we only hired them because they were excellent workers.

I've written before about how the contingency workforce management (CWM) system in the US for IT workers creates this situation. In IT most positions start out as contractors because it is so much easier to add a temporary position than a permanent one. Plus you always prefer a temp to perm because it is so hard to fire someone if they don't work out. If you are a big shop you use CWM to help you find workers. The problem is that the people these recruiting companies send you are 97% H-1B. I don't know if they are withholding the names of American applicants or if Americans are simply not signing up with these recruiting companies. I think its possible that Americans are more likely to search for permanent jobs rather than work as consultants with a recruiting company, which may place you with a company anywhere in the US for terms as short as six months.

I'd much rather hire an American citizen but I don't have the choice. I think if I could get a FT position instead of contractor, then I would probably get more Americans applying. The economy is so bad right now its next to impossible to get a new position improved. I wish there was a better way. My advice to out of work IT workers is apply for contractor work and people like me would be happy to hire you and make you a full timer.

[OhioChick]

68. There are many articles out there stating that

H-1B visa holders do not get paid the same rate as U.S. workers, but much less. I've seen it firsthand. Here is one of many...

Research finds US H1B visa holders paid less


A recent report suggests that US employers are using the H-1B visa program to pay lower wages than the national average for programming jobs.

According to "The Bottom of the Pay Scale: Wages for H-1B Computer Programmers — F.Y. 2004," a report by Programmers Guild board member John Miano, non-U.S. citizens working in the United States on an H-1B visa are paid "significantly less than their American counterparts."

How much less? "On average, applications for H-1B workers in computer occupations were for wages $13,000 less than Americans in the same occupation and state."

Miano based his report on OES (Occupational Employment Statistics) data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics which estimates wages for the entire country by state and metropolitan area. The report's H-1B wage data came from the U.S. Department of Labor's H-1B disclosure Web site.

Miano, in his report, whenever possible gave the benefit of the doubt to the employer. For example, he used OES data from 2003 because this is the wage information that would have been available to the employers when filing an LCA (labor condition application).

Miano had some difficulty matching OES job codes with LCA job titles, which employers typically create. Where both the OES and the LCA listed a job as "programmer/analyst," Miano took the conservative approach of assuming that the LCA was describing a programmer, a job title that typically earns a lower wage than a systems analyst.

Nonetheless, Miano's report shows that wages paid to H-1B workers in computer programming occupations had a mean salary of $52,312, while the OES mean was $67,700; a difference of $15,388. The report also lists the OES median salary as $65,003, or $12,691 higher than the H-1B median.

When you look at computer job titles by state, California has one of the biggest differentials between OES salaries and H-1B salaries. The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573.

Here are some other interesting national wage comparisons: The mean salary of an H-1B computer scientist is $78,169, versus $90,146 according to the OES. For an H-1B network analyst, the mean salary is $55,358, versus the OES mean salary of $64,799. And for the title "system administrator," there was a $17,478 difference in salary between the H-1B mean and the OES mean.

H-1B visa workers were also concentrated at the bottom end of the wage scale, with the majority of H-1B visa workers in the 10-24 percentile range. "That means the largest concentration of H-1B workers make less than highest 75 percent of the U.S. wage earners," the report notes.

While it would be difficult to prove that any one particular employer is hiring foreign workers to pay less, the statistics show that, for whatever reason, this is exactly what is happening on a nationwide basis. Miano says lobbyists will admit that a small number of companies are abusing the H-1B program, but what he has found in this research is that almost everyone is abusing it.

"Abuse is by far more common than legitimate use," he says.

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_10_26/us/us_h1b_visa_holders_earn_less.htm

[Deja Q]

73. And more and more of IT is becoming consultant-based.

Just like with cross-training and everybody being do-alls and be-alls, it's not a stable or bright thing to do. In theory it's nice but in practice, time and time again, the result is a pile of spaghetti.