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CShine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 05:10 AM
Original message
Court rules Quebec gays should be allowed to marry immediately
MONTREAL -- Quebec homosexuals should have the same rights as gays in Ontario and British Columbia and be allowed to legally marry, lawyers for a same-sex couple told a court Monday.

``The issue in Quebec is no different than anywhere else,'' Colin Irving told the Quebec Court of Appeal. ``In this day and age... it is no longer acceptable to single out gays.''

The court is being asked to rule on a decision by the Quebec Superior Court that the definition of marriage is discriminatory and unjustified. Some religious groups are seeking to appeal the September 2002 ruling by Justice Louise Lemelin that said the opposite-sex definition of marriage was unjustified under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The federal government dropped its appeal last summer when it agreed that a reference to the Supreme Court of Canada should decide the legality of amending the definition of marriage.

http://www.canada.com/montreal/story.asp?id=72E30907-8EBA-41EF-A83C-14A450A8B819

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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. CANADA...
...The Country America Was Supposed to Be.
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Cannikin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Amen....I may be relocating.
If this becomes the scary Republican war-happy theocracy that its leaning towards.
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Oh, that was good!!
Edited on Tue Jan-27-04 06:54 AM by theHandpuppet
Thanks! I needed that this morning! :D
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Canada isn't far enough away for me
I'm looking at New Zealand.
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. Canada And New Zealand Are Two Options I've Thought About
Canada is looking good.

-- Allen
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Isn't it sad...
...that as citizens of the United States you have to look to moving somewhere else in the world because your country deems you as a second class citizen?

When are the idiots going to learn?
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Second class would be a step up.
I think we're being looked at as potential soap and lampshade material.
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Well...
Edited on Tue Jan-27-04 04:33 PM by Sapphocrat
Between a potential queer exodus over civil rights, and a potential skilled-workers' exodus (to India, as I just read in LBN a day or two ago), and a potential political-dissidents' exodus, maybe the people who are left will figure it out once they realize the roads are getting mighty empty, and the lines at Disneyland are getting mighty short.

Not that they'll be able to afford Disneyland by then, seeing as how there will be no more economy once all the artists, writers, filmmakers, actors, musicians, activists, engineers, computer technicians, technical writers, draughtsmen, etc., etc., etc., are scattered across the rest of globe.

Nah, I don't really think that many people will clear out of the U.S.... I don't think -- but then, I didn't think a lot of bad things would happen.


On edit: Dumb typo.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Someone needs to stay and fight.
I totally understand wanting to be somewhere you have civil rights though. It makes me think of my sometimes-desire to move to San Francisco, which is only 100 miles away from me. But I think that "we"--in the gay sense and in the progressive sense--need not be too concentrated in a certain area.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
7. what might be better than emigrating

... which of course is not an option for too many people anyhow.

Learn. Learn how people outside the US think, how they do things, why they do things the way they do. Broadly, not just momentarily and specifically, in single instances like same-sex marriage for instance.

Why is this happening in Canada and not the US? Why has every other civilized nation but the US abolished capital punishment? Why can prisoners vote in Canada but not in the US? Why are women's reproductive rights not under threat in any of those other countries? Why do all those other countries have universal health care?

I don't mean "because the US is governed by Republican thugs". I mean the philosophical underpinnings of the society, the psyche of the nation, in much more than an election-campaign sort of way.

Those things all seem to come as a package, and the package is just different from what it is in the US. It also usually includes some things that many USAmericans, and many of the same ones who look on some of those things with favour, aren't quite as enamoured of: restrictions on speech (hate speech, election-related speech ...) that are not accepted in the US, firearms control measures that are not accepted in the US, restrictions on the private sector that are not accepted in the US (tougher anti-discrimination rules in housing, tougher pro-union schemes, for instance), more measures to promote cultural and ethnic minorities' interests than in the US.

The US as an entity, and individuals within the US, just need to engage with the world a whole lot more than it and they do now. To adopt a listening posture, a learning attitude, the way more of us out here do, both as nations and as individuals. We all have things to learn from others -- not to mimic them, but to consider whether they might be on to something we could use, or have experience we could learn from.

Yeah, it's hard, when your media tells you nothing and your schools teach you nothing about any of it. But surely somebody has to start, somewhere. And everybody really can do it in their own small way by taking an interest, by trying to learn, by making what they learn an issue wherever they can.

Just a thought about one fundamental difference between the approaches taken in the US and elsewhere.

Individual liberty is highly prized both in the US and in Canada and all the rest of the western world. But we look at it this way: liberty is what enables individuals to participate in their societies, not merely to be free from interference by their societies. Same-sex marriage, for instance, is not just an expression of society's disentitlement from interfering in individuals' private lives -- it is a way of ensuring that gay men and lesbians are able to participate fully in the benefits of membership in their societies. Ditto reproductive rights, language rights, rights against religious discrimination -- out here, they are seen not just as ways that the state stays out of people's private lives, but as ways that the state enhances people's opportunities and recognizes and affirms their entitlement to have those opportunities.

And that recognition does lead to a kind of "interference" in individual liberty that is not popular in the US, when it comes to anti-discrimination and universal health care and firearms control and restrictions on speech and a variety of other things that we do in order to enhance people's opportunities, i.e. their effective liberty, since liberty without opportunity sometimes isn't much use to anyone.

Just some thoughts, as I say; not aimed at anyone in particular, just offered up for anyone who wants to consider them.

.
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. And very well-considered thoughts they are...
...but the question is: How do we do it?

I agree, in theory, that we won't bring the U.S. into a 21st-century mindset by dragging it there kicking and screaming. I agree, in theory, that there needs to be a glacial shift of perception and attitude, through education and rational discourse... yes, by engaging everyone.

In reality, I don't see it working. If you awaken a single generation of young adults, it would stand to reason that this generation will put the wheels of progressive change in motion, and pass their ideals along to the next generation, and so on. As somebody once said, once your eyes are open, they can never be shut again.

What I've seen in my lifetime, however, is a generation that was awake and aware and concerned and engaged, and committed to changing the world for the good -- and now they are the very "establishment" they hated so much when they were young.

What happened? They lost momentum, I guess -- I don't really know. Perhaps they became jaded as they aged -- I don't know. Maybe idealism is only for the young, and some of us middle-aged holdouts haven't learned that yet. I just don't know.

I do know that the generation before mine became neocons -- and neoliberals, and Reagan Democrats -- and, as a generation, lost any shred of idealism and drive they ever had.

Oh, sure, there are plenty of idealists left -- but for every Kucinich, there are ten Bushes.

I don't know what broke the baby boomers' collective heart -- and without knowing that, I don't know where to begin trying to heal it.

So in theory, I'm with you all the way. But in practice, I'm at a loss as to how to awaken anyone who isn't already awake.

I need practical ideas, and I don't have any.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. hey, that's my generation ;)
I do know that the generation before mine became neocons -- and neoliberals, and Reagan Democrats -- and, as a generation, lost any shred of idealism and drive they ever had.

It does seem to be a bizarre phenomenon. But I always remind those who weren't there that it wasn't really an entire generation of hippies, yippies and motley protesters. Where I was at, we were a real minority. Yes, the great big middle may have been a little less apathetic and ignorant than they are now -- I'll always remember one of my women's residence dorm-mates, she of the blue eye shadow ("we" didn't wear makeup, remember), sticking up her hand in the meeting to vote "yes" to a campus strike, and me asking in astonishment, "Jeannette, what are you doing?", and her saying "I've had enough of this shit". Blew me away. But basically, there was still a great big middle, and there were still the business boys on campus, and the rednecks off.

Nonetheless, it does seem that in the US there was a rather violent swing to the right in that generation. This is a great article about it: http://erg.environics.net/news/default.asp?aID=456

Nearly 20 years ago, my colleagues at Environics in Toronto and CROP in Montreal began a study of Canadian social values. In our first survey of Canadian values in 1983, we asked Canadians if they strongly or somewhat agreed or disagreed that: "The father of the family must be the master in his own house." We posed more than 100 such questions to respondents that year. Our intention was to track these 100 items over time, dropping some, adding others; we hoped we'd measure what was important to Canadians or what was changing in our values and perspectives on life.

The "father must be master" question has become legendary at Environics. We love it because it measures a traditional, patriarchal attitude to authority in our most cherished institution: the family.

... Every year thereafter a smaller proportion of Canadians agreed. By 1992, the year before Kim Campbell became our first female prime minister, only 26 per cent of Canadians still said dad should be on top -- a drop of 16 per cent in less than nine years. Our colleagues in France had been tracking this question since 1975 and they, too, were finding the same kind of systematic decline in the preference for patriarchal authority. So, too, in other European countries.

Nineteen ninety-two was the first year we began conducting social-values research in the United States, the world capital of individualism and egalitarianism, of civil rights movements and affirmative action (remember, an American was the first to deflower the feminine mystique). We speculated that the United States would be ahead of Canada and France on this trend.

We found to our surprise that 42 per cent of Americans told us the father should be master, while 57 per cent disagreed and 1 per cent had no opinion. The gap between the two countries was a substantial 16 per cent.
And the US figure rose to 48% in 2000, while the figure everywhere else dropped.

It's an interesting barometer of social values (the whole article is worth reading, for instance to see how attitudes break down based on age, sex, education etc.). There's another there, about Canadian boomers: http://erg.environics.net/news/default.asp?aID=489

And yup, I don't know why it happened. Hell, even good old Canadian hippie Neil Young supported Reagan.

Of course, I have my own notions about the effect of Vietnam, and the lessons that simply were not learned. The war ended not because people in the US believed it was evil, or because they wanted to adopt a posture of engagement with all those "others" out there in the world rather than of imperialistic imposition of US notions and pursuit of US interests ... but because they just didn't want their boys coming home in bags. No shift in consciousness or prise de conscience, heightened awareness, of anything. Retreat into self, collectively and individually.

What to do in practice? Hey, don't ask me! It ain't utopia up here either, after all, so obviously I/we don't have *all* the answers. ;)

But actually, my best advice is simply: learn. Take an interest, and engage with the novel and the foreign and the different. (I don't mean to imply that you or anyone doesn't do that -- but honestly, it isn't exactly a leading feature of the USAmerican psyche and culture, at both the individual and collective level, and progressives are not immune to the ethnocentricity effect.) When you do that, you can't help but gain greater perspective for looking at what you already know, and maybe even seeing ways of doing something about what needs done.

In any event, it can hardly hurt. And it can work at a very basic level: taking an interest in what really makes the people you want to influence tick, at the person-to-person level, can provide insights (not just to you about them, but also to them about you) that may help to answer the question of how to change their minds.

.
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. Send Jerry Falwell up there to "minister" to those deluded people
Hey - it would get him out of Virginia!
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I like the Canadians
I wouldn't send them our trash
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