Fidel Castro attacks McCain and Bush in column

[cal04]

Source: Reuters

Cuban leader Fidel Castro blasted Republican presidential candidate John McCain on Friday for his criticism of the Cuban government this week, saying McCain had shown why he finished near the bottom of his class at West Point.

In his latest newspaper column, Castro also attacked President George W. Bush for his speech on Wednesday announcing that U.S. citizens would be allowed to send cell phones to Cuba.

"A deluge of speeches and lies they directed at Cuba," Castro said in a column published in Communist Party newspaper Granma. "How far they are from knowing Cuba and its people."

(snip)
"McCain, in his book 'Faith of My Fathers,' admitted that he was among the last five students in his course in West Point," Castro wrote. "He's showing it."

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN2318574220080523

[angstlessk]

1. 'last five in his course'...talk about spin...'lowest five in my class'...

what he reported is not just spin..it has a different meaning completely...the last 5 in his course indicates the course he was taking stopped after he and 4 other students took it....the lowest 5 in my class, however tells people exactly how stupid mcsame actually is. Wonder what those other 4 are doing about now?

[ToughLuck]

2. Absolutely HILARIOUS! Go for it Fidel, and keep it up :)

[SpiralHawk]

3. "But my uniform is nattier than Fidel's. Neener, neener, neener." - Commander AWOL

"And my codpiece is bigger. Smirk." - Commander AWOL

[mcollier]

4. The punishment to Cuba

for standing up against the US is overkill. What a waste of a generation's worth of dialog.... Education is the great equalizier...

[Judi Lynn]

5. Good one! He's still very bright. Thanks, cal04. n/t

[bluestateresident]

6. I agree with Fidel, but...

Florida Cubans might not be so understanding.

[ann_american2004]

7. Man -

I thought that Fidel guy was dead already. Shouldnt he be playing golf somewhere?

[DCKit]

8. I wonder what Castro's DU screen name is. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

9. Cuba says Bush cellphone speech "ridiculous"

Source: Reuters

Cuba says Bush cellphone speech "ridiculous"
Thu May 22, 2008 2:43pm EDT
By Jeff Franks

HAVANA (Reuters) - Cuba dismissed as "ridiculous" on Thursday President George W. Bush's speech announcing that U.S. residents can send cellular telephones to Cuban relatives and said it was time for Bush to go.

"It was a decadent show, a speech irrelevant and cynical, an act of ridiculous propaganda," Cuban foreign minister Felipe Perez Roque said in a press conference.

Perez Roque also called on the U.S. to explain the behavior of its top diplomat in Cuba, U.S. Interests Section chief Michael Parmly, whom the Cuban government this week accused of delivering money from an anti-Castro exile in the U.S. to dissidents in Havana.

Since making the accusation on Monday, the government has shown videos and e-mails and played tapes of Parmly speaking with dissident Martha Beatriz Roque, recipient of the money from a group founded by Miami businessman Santiago Alvarez.

Alvarez, currently in U.S. jail on weapons charges, is a colleague of Luis Posada Carriles, accused of masterminding a 1976 Cubana Airlines jet bombing that killed 73 people.







Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Cuba/idUSN2250647920080522

---

Marta Beatriz Roque



Marta Beatriz Roque with American Interests Section
head, _Bush's man in Havana, James Cason,gazing
on lovingly from the doorway as U.S. taxpayer supported
Marta Beatriz Roque, provocateur, chews the scenery.
Marta has informed the world she would vote for _Bush.

[L. Coyote]

10. Bush lectured Cubans on torture and human rights violations in Cuba! What HUBRIS!!

Cubans know about GITMO!!!

[Spouting Horn]

11. Down with fidel

down with totalitarians, down with the embargo and down with the travel restrictions.

[pingzing58]

12. Fidel's days are numbered. It's the Cuban exiles that keep the embargo and travel restrictions from

being lifted. It's U.S. Cubans against Fidel and all of Cuba.

[FiveGoodMen]

14. What will happen when the borders open up again and all those exiles try to take back

the land their folks owned in 1959 -- from the people who live there now?

[Judi Lynn]

15. These people and the American companies who owned property there were offered

compensation long ago, and the offer has always open.

Compensation for appropriated property belonging to people and companies in other countries was already settled years ago.

The U.S. advised owners not to settle, and many didn't, imagining the U.S. would go overturn the people's revolt against the Batista bloody regime and hand their stuff back to them. That didn't happen, of course.

Compensation was discussed over and over, even mentioned in secret talks between Che Guevara and Kennedy's aide, Richard Goodwin, whose memos have been released as declassified documents.

[FiveGoodMen]

16. Thanks for the details.

I'm thinking, though, that many in Florida still believe the land is theirs to take back. Why else not take the compensation?

[Judi Lynn]

17. It looks as if they simply believe this government is going to completely control

Cuba if they play their cards right, and it will simply hand over their old property, even if the mansions have been cut up into apartments for multiple families, and the plantations into small farm plots for individual farmers, etc.

Miami Cuban organizations have commissioned satellite photos of Cuba and have them spread all over the place making their plans to slice and dice the island as soon as they get back in power.

Here's a reference to this kind of busy-body activity they've whiled away their time with in Miami:

Exhibit, website show Havana in high-res

Satellite and street-level photos are combined to help imagine a Cuba of the future.

By Enrique Fernandez, [email protected]. Posted on Fri, May. 25, 2007.

Havana Today in Images, a Miami Dade College photo exhibit that opens today at the Tower Theater in Little Havana, raises new though uncertain hopes among Cuban exiles for the reclamation of their property in a post-Castro Cuba.

The exhibit, which was organized by a Florida International University-based NASA office in collaboration with MDC, matches satellite images of specific zones of Havana with building-by-building, street-level photography.

A link on the project's website (http://no-more.com) clicks to an affidavit that can be filed, with supporting documentation, claiming ownership of the building photographed.

But whether the project will eventually help people reclaim property confiscated under Fidel Castro's regime is uncertain.

''Whether this is considered proper evidence depends on who would be processing these applications,'' says Tania Mastrapa, who runs a Miami consulting practice on property reclamation in Cuba (www.mastrapaconsultants.com).

''I have not heard of these claim mechanisms being used in other countries,'' says Mastrapa, whose doctoral thesis at the University of Miami examined post-Communist property claims in the Czech Republic and Nicaragua and the lessons they could have for Cuba.

Still, she says, "owners can see how their building is being used, if there's a sign for a restaurant, for example, or what shape it's in. Then they can decide if they want to try to reclaim it.

''A lot of people outside Cuba don't even know if their property still exists because of hurricanes, deterioration of buildings and lack of maintenance,'' Mastrapa says.

The project's creator and director, Naphtali David Rishe, says it has ''no political message.'' Rishe heads FIU's High Performance Database Research Center and NASA Regional Applications Center, also at FIU.

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y07/may07/29e1.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just did a quick search and found a quick reference to the compensation offered by Cuba in this LTTE:

I was pleasantly surprised to see such an enlightening article on the situation in Cuba in a U.S. publication. Your readers might appreciate knowing that the U.S. political situation with respect to Cuba is, if anything, even more bizarre than Joy Gordon points out, and seems to revolve around North Carolina Senator Jesse Helms (a co-sponsor of the Helms-Burton bill, which is a clear imposition of U.S. law extraterritorially for reasons of nothing more than extremist right-wing ideology).

Defenders of the bill frequently accuse Canada and Mexico in particular of "trafficking in stolen U.S. property" (a direct quote from Marc Thiessen, an aide to Senator Helms, on the CBC Radio program As it Happens). What they fail to point out is that the Castro government offered compensation for all appropriated property after the revolution, but the U.S. government quickly passed a law forbidding U.S. companies to accept any such compensation. Two Canadian members of Parliament who claim to be descended from Loyalists from North Carolina have introduced, tongue in cheek, a bill that would keep Senator Helms and his immediate family from traveling to Canada until North Carolina settles its outstanding claims with the estates of Loyalists who left after the American Revolution. (Thiessen claims that Britain settled these debts, which is true, but it was only after North Carolina defaulted.)

Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/97apr/9704lett.htm

[Pavulon]

18. NO we will reverse what the USSR did

once he is dead. Agreements die with him. One of the last pieces of soviet rule will follow shortly.

[blindpig]

21. Excuse me

The USSR had nothing to do with the Cuban Revolution until it was already a fact.

The Soviet Union never ruled Cuba.

The proposal for compensation is from the Cuban government, not Fidel Castro.

For my part, I believe the Cuban government should withdraw the offer, given the behavior of the exile community and the US government.

[Judi Lynn]

23. You're right. They've waged over 45 years of dirty, murderous warfare on Cubans, killing

thousands over the years.

Many of them should be in prison right now, and for the rest of their lives. The ones responsible for the raids on Cuban citizens, the murders, the bombings, the airliner bombing, the kidnappings, buring of crops, use of biological warfare on Cubans, as testified in court by Cuban "exile" murderer, Eduardo Arocena, all belong inprison, and their destructive acts were often financed by the C.A.N.F.

That's been admitted by bomber/mass murderer, Luis Posada Carriles.

[Zorro]

24. And how is that different from FARC tactics?

[Judi Lynn]

31. How many airliners have been blown out of the sky by FARC bomber assholes?

The people of Cuba rebelled AGAINST the scum which comprised the first wave of "exiles" to Miami. They screwed Cuba, they had death squads, they tortured, and the country threw them out.

FARC is a people's resistance against a filthy government which uses death squads, tortures, and slaughters entire villages.

Stop your gibbering.

[Zorro]

32. "People's resistance"? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

"The Colombian people have suffered for more than four decades at the hands of a brutal terrorist insurgency. Last March, Colombian security forces targeted a senior Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) leader, and Ecuador and Venezuela moved troops and tanks to their borders with Colombia, bringing hostilities to a boiling point. But this must not be used as a pretense to ratchet up tensions or to threaten the stability of the region. In an Obama administration, we will support Colombia’s right to strike terrorists who seek safe-haven across its borders, to defend itself against FARC and we will address any support for the FARC that comes from members of neighboring governments because this behavior must be exposed to international condemnation and regional isolation."

"Brutal terrorist insurgency". That's what Obama says about the FARC.

You going to tell us that Obama is "gibbering" also?

[blindpig]

38. "You going to tell us that Obama is "gibbering" also?"

Yep.

[Judi Lynn]

56. He will be as long as he retains his current foreign policy advisor, David Boren.

DU'er "magbana" provided the name of this guy in a thread in the Latin America forum, and information. You might want to check it, and three following posts, #15, 16, 17, which add information.

You will be shocked Barack Obama chose him to assist. This is really inscrutible!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=405&topic_id=4545&mesg_id=4572

Magbana just added a post with more information here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x4578

What this all means is worth some long, hard thought. Boren is truly a strange man for a Democrat to consult.

[blindpig]

63. Judi Lynn,

If you check into it you will find that many of Obama's advisors are reactionaries and that many of his big donors are equally repugnant. In a word, he is a fraud and all of this hope is bollocks.
(be assured, I am not a Clinton backer, McKinney is the only person running that I can stomach.)

[Judi Lynn]

66. I wouldn't have believed this before today! I couldn't believe my ears and eyes YESTERDAY, when he

gave that speech in Miami.

Miami IS the extremist town in this country, a real circus. I tried to explain the speech as an adjustment made talking to raving lunatics!

Well, I will be concerned about who those other advisors are, to be sure. Very disappointing. Maybe he'll snap out of it and cut some of the worst ones loose.

Thanks for your alert.

McKinney is most likely going to get that last laugh!

[roody]

75. Obama is gibbering. Makes me glad to be

not a Democrat.

[Zorro]

76. Not a Democrat?

Are you declaring yourself to be a Republican then?

[blindpig]

114. Binary much?

Hamlet:
And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

[AlphaCentauri]

50. He probably does not know where all that crack cocaine come from

yeah, that drug that mess up many poor US citizens lives.

[Pavulon]

30. Seems like the thermonuclear weapons

placed there might have had something to do with our posture. There is and was a reason we kill communists in cuba and latin america.

Cuba played a game with the USSR and the US and people died. They chose that role, they are not the swiss, so we killed people.

As did other governments. They choose sides in a cold war and became pawns.

They are lucky not to have killed the whole world fucking around, they came very close.

[Zorro]

33. Well, Fidel did have some consolation

for not starting WW III. Not content with killing and imprisoning his political opponents, he also got to send 50 thousand Cuban troops to Africa to spread the revolution by killing Angolans and Eritreans.

[High Plains]

96. And defeated South Africa and Rhodesia. Not bad.

Batte of Cuito Cuanevale: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cuito_Cuanavale

Wiki also credits the outcome of that battle for the independence of Namibia.

[ronnie624]

35. The U.S. deployed nuclear weapons all over Europe during the Cold War.

The UK, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Greece and Turkey all contained U.S. weapons. Were these countries 'playing games'? Were they 'pawns'?

I can just imagine the nature of your blathering if the Soviet Union had been 'killing capitalists' all over Europe. It is quite revealing that you can only mention the United States as the one doing the killing.

You make some of the most bizarre and ironic statements I've ever seen on this discussion board.

[Judi Lynn]

36. They're incomprehensible. The immediate reaction is both a shudder, and a gag reflex. Unusual. n/t

[ronnie624]

40. For many,

the "Cuban Missile Crisis" begins with the Soviet deployment of missiles to Cuba. They can only see from an American centric point of view. They can't seem to realize that the deployment of U.S. missiles all over Europe, including in Turkey, right up to the Soviet border, just might have played a role in the escalation of tensions. There is also the matter of the continuous violations of Soviet airspace by U2 spy planes. They just can't imagine taking responsibility for the actions of their government. Through convoluted mental gymnastics, they convince themselves that the U.S. has a right to do as it pleases, and any consequences can be blamed on others. Such irrational thinking seems to lead to saying truly foolish things, like, "The U.S. kills communists. Thats just the way it is, so you might as well accept it." or "Cuba bears sole responsibility for the Cuban Missile Crisis."

Some Americans need to wake up and smell the freakin' coffee.

[Zorro]

57. Nice to see how much ronnie boy loves the USA

Nuclear tipped missiles aimed at the USA from 90 miles offshore?

Sounds like that's OK in ronnie boy's book.

He loves him some Fidel.

[Judi Lynn]

62. Isn't that your mother calling you?

You should know, BY NOW, how stupid it is to try to red-bait people. Shabby behavior.

Democrats who post here are far brighter than you're likely to find at a right-wing site. They don't go for that crap when you call out Democrats as public enemies, etc. when they see the conspicuous flaws in previous American policy. Those enormous errors are there.

To attempt to cover up by pointing at people and screeching they are "commies" is ugly, and pointless. It reveals massive emotional, character impairment. It's dishonest, and crude. Stupid.



"loves him some Fidel!"

[Zorro]

68. So you're OK

with nuclear-tipped missiles being aimed at the USA from 90 miles offshore? It's a simple question even a simpleton can answer.

You should know, BY NOW, that shrill, judgmental insults is a course of action you should avoid.

[Popol Vuh]

78. LOL...You're So Ignorant

The real point you fail to see is this: WHY did Cuba have to seek protection from us by going to the Soviets in the first place? Riddle me that one genius.

Looks like in your book its perfectly fine to trample all over other countries to exploit their labor and resources by installing and backing tyrannical dictatorships.

The follow up question is: WHAT would YOU do if we had a foreign force by de facto controlling our country - especially using someone like Batista?

If you say anything else other than you'd fight against it to defend our sovereignty, then you prove you hate America. If you say you'd defend our sovereignty against that type of oppressive environment then you side with Fidel and Che.

[Zorro]

79. Cuba had to "seek protection from us"?

Care to tell us what specifically you're talking about, or are you just another paranoid whackjob that sees US machinations behind every event that occurs in Latin America?

[Popol Vuh]

81. None Responsive

Try answering my question instead of attempting to avoid it by means of a strawman. Or are you actually expecting people not to remember history? The history of US involvement with the tyrannical dictatorship of Batista and the hegemonic control from foreign groups such as United Fruit and PepsiCo as well as others? Or the history of US involvement against Cuba's revolution against Batista such as Operation 40, Operation Mongoose and the Bay of Pigs which lead to the missile crisis itself? Do you deny JFK agreeing, after the missile crisis, not to go through with the plans to invade Cuba? Plans to invade Cuba? Do you deny the history of US involvement in training and supplying clandestine groups to conduct armed raids in Cuba? Do you deny the several attempts to assassinate Fidel?


Now that I was nice enough to point you in the right direction to alleviate you from your ignorance of history. Try answering the question.



P.S. In an effort to help you not look uneducated, here's some history for you: http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/%7Ehbf/Cuba_and_the_US_book.pdf

and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdpLcnZ_IoM

[Zorro]

82. OK got it

You approve Castro allowing nuclear tipped missiles to be installed in Cuba and aimed at the US, because we "deserved" it. That's the question posed at the beginning of this subthread that you avoided answering.

Decisions were made many years ago by people much smarter and more accomplished than you, so it's quite easy to criticize those decisions from the advantage of 20/20 revisionist hindsight.

It's a free country, so if you prefer siding with adversaries of the US, that's your perogative.

[Pavulon]

83. Funny doing that in the USSR or cold war Cuba

was a great way to destroy your life. Same as putting a gun in your mouth. Here it just made you pretty unpopular, but Siberia was not an option.

[ronnie624]

85. "You have freedom of speech, therefore you shouldn't exercise it."

That tired old cliché has seen better days.

[Popol Vuh]

88. Still None Responsive

That's what I thought. Confront people like you with historic facts and ask them what would they do and all you get is none responsive strawman answers because they know what they themselves would do if confronted with the same circumstances.

Also, your answer tells me that its ok with you if a larger country goes into other countries overtly or covertly to create situations of political and economic oppression CAUSING the creation of adversaries toward us.

You're a very short sighted and hypocritical person. If it wasn't for people such as yourself we wouldn't see half the adversaries we do. But hey, like you said, it's a free country, so if you prefer to create adversaries throughout the world making us less safe, I guess that's your prerogative.

[Zorro]

90. Here are some historic facts for you to ignore

The termination of US arms shipments to the Batista regime ultimately enabled the rebels to overthrow the government. But that fact doesn't quite jibe with your biased perspective of nefarious US policy, does it?

Here's another one: the US quickly recognized Castro's government after it came to power, but Castro's continued nationalization of foreign companies led to the imposition of trade restrictions by the US. Fidel chose to follow a confrontational agenda almost from the beginning. But I guess it's OK with you for the government to confiscate private property for political reasons, right?

Fidel deliberately chose to implement failed economic and totalitarian political models while simultaneously threatening US security. His hostile approach to US relations is the cause for the impoverishment of the entire country, and the situation will not change until he's planted in the ground. Then watch how quickly Cubans embrace US-style capitalism.

I support US political and economic interests worldwide; that means I don't support adversaries of US policies, as apparently you do, comrade. If you want to call that hypocritical or short-sighted, be my guest.

[Popol Vuh]

91. And Still None Responsive

Like I said, you've exposed yourself as someone who refuses to except responsibility for creating adversarial situations, and thus support activities which create adversaries making us less safe.

Now, try reading the rest of the pdf document I posted and see how your last none responsive post further shows how uneducated you are about the history of Cuba/US relationship. Also, advance the short youtube video clip I provided above to the 3min 52sec mark and tell me how attacking little school children makes us more safe and them less of an adversary.

See, I've given several answers to your question. "Cuba had to "seek protection from us"? Care to tell us what specifically you're talking about", but, you continue to avoid answering the one I proposed and continue to attempt injecting strawmen. Why is that?

Again, answer the question. "WHAT would YOU do if we had a foreign force by de facto controlling our country - especially using someone like Batista?

If you say anything else other than you'd fight against it to defend our sovereignty, then you prove you hate America. If you say you'd defend our sovereignty against that type of oppressive environment then you side with Fidel and Che."

I support Freedom and Democracy worldwide; that means I don't support CREATING adversaries towards us, as apparently you do. And yes, that is hypocritical and short sighted of you.

Now you going to answer the question?

[Zorro]

92. If it's on Youtube

then it must be true, right?

Cement powder in schoolchildren's milk? Well I call bullshit.

You conveniently fail to mention that "CIA agent" Verne Lyon, the star of your little video, was convicted of setting off a bomb and then skipped out of the country to Cuba to avoid federal prosecution.

Yeah, he's a real credible source -- a domestic terrorist -- so naturally he has no political agenda. If anything, he was an agent of Cuba.

United States v. Lyon, 567 F.2d 777 (8th Cir.1977)

On December 17, 1966, a dynamite bomb exploded in the St. Louis Municipal Airport terminal, damaging the terminal but causing no injuries. The unexploded bomb was discovered and the terminal evacuated prior to detonation, and the St. Louis County Police and Fire Departments were called. A group of county police officers, led by Major F. J. Vasel, responded. Major Vasel inspected the bomb, which consisted of a wind-up alarm clock, two sticks of dynamite, and caps and wires arranged in a shoe box. As Vasel turned and walked away, the bomb exploded, knocking him to the floor.

Several employees of the McDonnell Aircraft Corporation were suspicious of a co-worker, Verne Lyon. One of the employees, Bryon Rall, told detectives that prior to the bombing, he had overheard a telephone conversation in which Lyon made a reference to the purchase of dynamite. Emil Eisenreich, another McDonnell employee, told detectives that on the day of the bombing, Lyon asked him if he knew anyone who could solder some wires to two flashlight batteries. Eisenreich later observed Lyon with the batteries and wires soldered. Martha Fay Van Diver said that prior to the bombing Lyon had asked her for a shoe box. On the day following the bombing, Lyon told her that he had obtained a shoe box from his landlady.

On December 20th, officers went to Lyon's address and met his landlady, Mollie Lorts, who showed them the second floor room she rented to Lyon. She confirmed that she had given Lyon a shoe box a few days earlier and gave the officers an identical box. The officers went to Lyon's room, looked in, and observed, through the doorway, multi-colored wire on a dresser. A search warrant was obtained and executed. Lyon told the officers that there was dynamite in a suitcase and blasting caps in a dresser drawer, and officers found seven sticks of dynamite in the suitcase, and a box containing four blasting caps in the dresser.

After he was indicted under 8 U.S.C. § 32, Lyon became a fugitive, and was not captured until his 1977 deportation from Peru. He was ultimately convicted by a jury and sentenced to fifteen years in prison for the crime of willfully placing a destructive device in the vicinity of an aircraft, plus an additional two years for jumping bail.. However, his case was reversed and remanded for new trial because of admission of evidence seized under an improperly issued search warrant. The bail jumping conviction was affirmed. On remand, the defendant was again convicted of the 18 U.S.C. § 32 charge. United States v. Lyon, 588 F.2d 581 (5th Cir. 1978).

You can read more of the details here: http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/588/588.F2d.581.78-1305.html

I prefer not to create adversaries against the US, despite all your self-righteous hyperbole. However, I am not as naive as you apparently are regarding international relationship, and recognize that there are foreign nations, groups, and organizations that are and will remain implacably opposed to US interests.

And you can save your patronizing lecturing with me. Citing a dubious Youtube video to support your argument indicates either the depth of your own ignorance, or that you are promoting an agenda and hiding important facts to the greater population of readers.

[Popol Vuh]

99. Wow....Now

in attempting to avoid answering a simple question you employ swift boat tactics as another strawman. I think I've done an adequate job here at showing you to have a Straussian mentality along with a failure to understand cause/effect.

People like you create adversaries toward our country, endangering our national security. The reason why you refuse to answer my simple question is because you know damn well you wouldn't tolerate another country doing those sorts of shenanigans to us. But yet you'll criticize on other people in the world who've done no different.

You also arrogantly take the attitude that you have the authority to tell another country what form of government and economics they can and can't have. Again, creating an adversarial relationship and endangering our national security.

I'll let you have the last word and thanks for giving me the answer I knew you would and exactly how I knew you would give it.

Try sometime to hear both sides of a story instead of being an obvious none free thinker. You might just learn something constructive toward our safety and security.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1427963647497121906 << Learn before commenting.

[Zorro]

100. Your answer is in post #93

It's called thinking outside the box, but apparently your rigid mindset can't get around the concept.

"Swift boat tactics". "Strawman". "Straussian mentality". "Failure to understand cause/effect". Using such pejorative terms doesn't change the fact that you've been busted, despite your attempt to deflect attention.

My position has been quite clear and consistent; I don't know why it's taken you so long to comprehend it. I have no problem with other countries exercising their right for self-determination, so long as it does not threaten US interests. If that occurs, why yes I do think the US should take appropriate measures, because if left unattended it can ultimately threaten US security.

Sounds as if you're OK with Castro's government and their managed economy, because it's "home-grown". I daresay there are plenty of Cubans today that would prefer free and fair elections and a market economy, but can't express those opinions because of the threat of imprisonment.

Yeah, that's a great way to show respect for the will of the people. But it's "home-grown", so that must be better.

Right.

Just wait and see how Cuba is transformed after Fidel and Raul are off the stage.

[Zorro]

93. And yet there's the third option

Work through the system to effect change. I'm no revolutionary, and neither are you, despite your avatar.

And the next time you tell someone to "educate themselves", you had best verify your sources if you don't want to be perceived as an ignoramus. Or a paranoid whackjob.

[High Plains]

98. Nah, I'd call that a Henry Jackson Democrat.

And leaning very close to a Joe McCarthy Republican.

Dinosaurs walk the earth.

[ronnie624]

102. You are obviously making up your own facts.

You say, "the US quickly recognized Castro's government after it came to power", and "His hostile approach to US relations is the cause for the impoverishment of the entire country". In some bizarre twist of logic, you say the tiny, defenseless nation of Cuba was somehow "threatening US security". However, according to this documentary in post #8, <http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3324667>, Castro "...embarked on a tour of the United States, hoping to promote a better understanding of the Cuban Revolution. Vice President Nixon was sent to meet the new Cuban leader after President Eisenhower refused to see him. Nixon later wrote a memo describing Fidel as a communist who should be overthrown."

I think you're full of it. You are in dire need of some education on this matter.

[Popol Vuh]

103. Yeah, this guy is a prime example

of someone commenting on something for which his pool of knowledge obviously only comes from FAUX News and The Wall Street Journal. And what's even more laughable, I think, is that he's using the name Zorro. His choosing that name and taking the positions he does is like a slogan Christians against Christ.

[Zorro]

104. You know

as much as I paddle you in these forums, I'd like to think you'd eventually get a clue.

But for some particularly dense skulls, it doesn't matter how much they're whacked up the side of the head with a clue bat -- the only result is a broken bat.

You and the rest of your comrades seem pathologically obsessed with telling others who disagree with your opinions to get some education. That smug, superior, patronizing attitude is what compels me to challenge the rampant stupidity you and the rest of your ilk promote in the LA threads.

So don't be surprised if my boot and I continue to educate you and the rest of your fellow travelers.

[ronnie624]

105. In other words,

you are incapable of addressing the issue under discussion, and you must instead resort to insults and other inanities in lieu of facts and information.

[Zorro]

107. Batter up

You: you say the tiny, defenseless nation of Cuba was somehow "threatening US security"

Me: nuclear-tipped missiles being aimed at the USA from 90 miles offshore

You: you are incapable of addressing the issue

Me: broken bat

[Popol Vuh]

109. Back full circle

WHY were those missiles put there in the first place? Through all this you've never answered the question as to what would you do if a global super power was trying to assassinate our President and sabotaging our economy and conducting raids here on our soil, killing our fellow citizens. Like for example: Operation 40, Operation Mongoose and The Bay of Pigs to just name the more well known ones.

What you fail to get through your thick skull is cause/effect. That is unless these things happened to you here. Then that would be different right? It wouldn't be hypocritical or anything because you think you're different and better then other people of the world right?

That's why you won't answer the question I laid out in above posts.



ronnie, I am done with this guy. He obviously is a poster child for FAUX News and the Wall Street Journal. What a shame...

[Zorro]

111. Nope

don't watch Fox News. Read the WSJ rarely. But I'm still better informed than you.

But you can carry on deluding yourself with your idiotlogical blindness.

It's a free country, comrade.

[ronnie624]

110. Never at any time

did the Cuban government have control over Soviet missiles.

[Zorro]

112. OK we get it

You would have been OK with nuclear tipped missiles 90 miles offshore and aimed at the US.

[Popol Vuh]

106. "I'd like to think you'd eventually get a clue."

If you only knew how ironic that statement is coming from you. Seriously your education level needs lots of work.

And the reason why your bat (notice your violent analogies?) would break is because I don't take to right-wing extremist ideologies.

[Zorro]

108. For someone just busted for passing a phony video as truth

you're hardly in a position to lecture me on my education.

[ronnie624]

84. U.S. intervention in Cuba

did not begin with the Communist revolution or the Cuban Missile Crisis. It started more than a half century before with the Spanish American War, when the U.S. government stabbed Cuba in the back and denied them the independence they had fought for against the Spanish. The United States has a long, easily traceable history of intervention and machinations in Latin America. Insulting people who learn about and share this history does not reflect well on you or your understanding of historical events. You can easily abridge your ignorance by simply reading.

[Judi Lynn]

87. No time like the present, for sure.

Your post reminds me of this quote from the Undersecretary of War, John C. Breckenridge, who wrote in his memo on Christmas Eve,1897, the beloved (to him!) words:

We must impose a harsh blockade so that hunger and its constant companion, disease, undermine the peaceful population and decimate the Cuban army.

http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/bmemo.htm

Smooth, isn't it? Bad habits like greed, hatred, racism seem hard to break.

[High Plains]

97. Ever hear of Bay of Pigs? For starters?

What a pitiful performance by Zorro.

[ronnie624]

65. I am not a nationalist.

I do not regard world events in a patriotic frame of mind. I do not "love" the USA or any other country. I used to think in such childish terms, but not any more. Instead, I now attempt to analyze geopolitical realities from a point of view of objectivity.

The Cuban Missile Crisis did not occur in a vacuum. There were preceding events that led directly to the conflict. The U.S. played a major role in those events. I cannot ignore them so I can feel good about myself and my country, as it is no longer within my nature. Doing so would deprive me of historical context as well as a more complete understanding of the path that has led to where we are now.

[Zorro]

69. OK I acknowledge and understand where you're coming from

In the context of the times it's imperative to understand the nature of the conflict between East and West.

The USSR was perceived as a mortal enemy to our very existence, and the US took actions to deter the threat.

[Pavulon]

42. Dismissial is the easiest logical fallacy

it is the internet equivalent of screaming someone down. Just put it on ignore.

Actually addressing the context of cuban communism and the USSR would take much more effort.

Cuba's government is going to collapse, with or without out "assistance".

[AlphaCentauri]

48. What about us? are we going to collapse?

are we going to keep our power deploying weapons all over the world and siding with people like the tali-bans?

[Pavulon]

51. Eventually..

however not next year. The US will look more like the UK over time. Once a vast super power. However no course is fixed.

However you must understand how these games work. We are using these people. We do not care about saudis they do not care about us. If a technology came out that allowed water to transform to gasoline we would let the middle east collapse.

We do not care about Colombia. They are all pawns in a game.

China does not care about the ties it makes in africa. They are designed to further the interest of the government and people.

Lots of people here take this position that we as posters are making these policies. I am not the director of operations at cia. Nor are you, presumed, so we can interpret how policy impacts the US an world. But not change it.

[Pavulon]

41. That would be checkoslovakia, where the USSR did that

You need to hit the books my friend. I did not think I would need to frame the context up for you. There was a cold war and two super power nations manipulated governments, killed people outright including heads of state, and basically fought an idealogical war.

Communism in cuba is a left over part of that. People dont kill themselves trying to escape the us in rafts to get to cuba.

And to answer your question yep they were pawns, hence the decommission of missiles in turkey after the cuban missile crisis.

[ronnie624]

46. More nonsensical yammering and repetitions of U.S. establishment propaganda?

Come on, Povulon. Lay out your case in a clear and intelligible manner. Instead of telling me I need to hit the books, and making vague references to Czechoslovakia (which is spelled with an upper case 'C', followed by a 'z', by the way), you should tell me specifically what it is that you're trying to say. Are you here to debate and impart some of that vast knowledge of yours, or simply to regurgitate simplistic talking points?

[Pavulon]

49. Your question answered..ask another..

other than spelling error ...Where did the ussr kill people to destroy capitalism..All over eastern europe.

My point is very simple.

Cuba is a leftover from the cold war. Castro like communism is dead, just a matter of burying him. It is a failed notion and while looked great on paper, fails in reality. It fucks with free will.

No one is fleeing miami to get to cuba, no one is fleeing to N. Korea, because the practice of communism is defunct.

Now the people who promote leaders who follow the ideology like Chavez are sadly off course.

Their failure is determined, there are forces (market) stacked against them. Investment in Venezuela has crashed. It is just a matter of time before chavez is the new mugabe.

This is a cycle, look at gas price from 1985 to 2000..

What is going to happen to single thread economies when the cycle turns on them?

[ronnie624]

60. I don't know. I can't read your mind.

You tell me what's going to happen to "single thread economies" when "the cycle turns on them". I don't even know what that means. What is "the cycle"? In what manner will it "turn on them"? How does it relate to gasoline prices from 1985 to 2000? How will it change Chavez into the "new mugabe"?

Cuba is not a "leftover" from the Cold War. It is a tiny sovereign nation, the government of which is supported by an overwhelming majority of Cubans. The CIA's own data says so. But even if it wasn't supported by Cubans, it's none of our business. It is the Cuban people's responsibility to determine their own political destiny. It is the responsibility of the U.S. to relate to other nations with respect to their sovereignty.

Anytime you attempt to discuss the issues concerning Cuba and Venezuela with your disjointed one-liners, you always ignore the fact that both of these countries have been traditional victims of U.S. meddling for many decades. You say the Cuban system is a failure, but in doing so, you ignore the effects of the 45 year long embargo. This guarantees that your 'analysis' will be completely bereft of any historical context. It will also be lacking in facts that are very important to understanding the current political dynamics of both Cuba and Venezuela.

As for your ramblings about Eastern Europe, the USSR did not singlehandedly destroy capitalism there. The U.S. played a major role in that act. With your acute understanding of world history, you should have no problem remembering that Europe was divided up into spheres of influence in agreements between the USSR and the Western powers following WWII.

[provis99]

37. how convenient you forgot to mention

the reason the nuclear missles were in Cuba in the first place. It was because the US was trying to overthrow the government of Castro, which the American government initially went along with, until the Cuban exiles arrived on our shores to plot Castro's overthrow at the Bay of Pigs. I blame the nuclear showdown of the Cuban Missle Crisis on those idiotic megalomaniac exiles who could care less if the US were annihilated in nuclear armageddon, as long as they got Cuba back to continue torturing and raping the population of Cuba.

Screw the Cuban exiles; they're the ones who should be in Gitmo, not some anonymous Afghans and Arab taxicab drivers.

[Pavulon]

43. The USSR could have given a shit

about cuba. They were pawns, that is why missiles were there. Cuba did not make them.

A brief review of soviet intervention in Africa as well as Latin America would demonstrate this.

But the USSR's policy was great, I mean look at che. We should all wish the US government worked like that of mid 60's russia.

And cuba would have been a volcanic rock devoid of life had both sides not come to their senses.

[Pavulon]

29. You are right the USSR had no role in Cuba

...the Cuban government still exists because of a gentelmen's agreement right around the time a nuclear was about to start.

Those days are gone, so are that governments friends. The fat man in red is no kruschev. He may hope to be one day, but he has no ability to swing policy like the USSR did.

cheers

[blindpig]

39. Gentlemen's agreement my ass.

The Cuban Revolution exists today because the Cuban people wish it so, enduring a dirty war and crushing embargo for 40+ years.

As per the thermonukes, how convenient of you not to mention our nukes in Turkey, whose removal was the quid pro quo` which ended the crisis.

How convenient to forget that the US started that shit.

[Pavulon]

44. Watch and learn

Cuba will be vastly different within 2 years of the time fidel goes in the ground. There has been a plan sitting around for decades.

Actually "it" started right after WW2. Cuba is a footnote in a long war. Which we won.

And yes that is good. Dont believe me ask a person who lived in E germany or poland. I meet them, the "dark days" is the term I hear.

[blindpig]

45. You call this winning?

Yup, we've made out real well, haven't we? So much for a 'peace dividend'.

The Cubans who I spoke to in Cuba would differ in your estimation of Cuba's future. Your opinion that Fidel Castro is some kind of autocrat capable of single-handedly enslaving his people is laughable, belied by history and an examination of the Cuban political system. Fidel is important as a historic figure and figurehead. His opinions are respected but not dictates. There is no cult of personality around Castro, Che is lauded but the bears share of respect goes to Jose Marti.

You really need to get your head out of the US propaganda toilet.

[Pavulon]

47. Umm Yes. There is no wall in berlin

former soviet states can choose their governments. Castro ran the place, he was a dictator. He handed the government to his brother.

He ran a cold war government. There is no cold war.

He put men on the ground in angola, I choose a side.

The home of the ideology used to build cuba is destroyed. Erased. It did not work in russia, and every where it is used to govern people is a failed state.

Wake me up when people start taking rafts out of miami to escape us oppression.

[blindpig]

52. Same old sad one-liners

Russia is not the 'home' of socialism, just the first socialist state.

Cuba put men on the ground to fight the racist, apartheid South African regime, I find that admirable.

Given the US policy of severely restricting legal emigration and the treatment of those rafters who reach our shores, the constant bombardment of our decedent bling culture via radio and television, it is not surprising that some would sucumb to the temptation and take the chance. If the US had a policy that treated Mexicans the way these Cubans are treated the bodies would be stacking up in the Sonoran Desert like cordwood.

[Pavulon]

54. They give a shit about race

they were soviet aligned that is why they stepped in to back a socialist faction. This is all public knowledge and acknowledged by Russian historians.

Bling culture, get out with that. People come here because it is a better place. Work, invest, build a life. The government is not controlling you daily existence.

The whole some animals are more equal than others pretty much dooms communism. It is falling fast in china..

Plus you can have satellite tv here, pretty progressive..

[blindpig]

61. Incredible

Are you a true capitalist, that is, is your income solely derived from the work of others? If so, your attitude is understandable, because your viewpoint is that of those who profit from exploitation. If not, you are horribly confusing what's good for the people who run this country with what's good for us regular folks.


You have no idea what daily life is like in Cuba. Government controlling your daily existence? Where'd you get that nonsense?

Satellite tv is progressive? What a fucking maroon, tv is psyops.

See, I've been there, and you don't even know where you are.

[Zorro]

71. Maybe "that nonsense" came from reports like this, pig...

<snip>

Over the past forty years, Cuba has developed a highly effective machinery of repression. The denial of basic civil and political rights is written into Cuban law. In the name of legality, armed security forces, aided by state-controlled mass organizations, silence dissent with heavy prison terms, threats of prosecution, harassment, or exile. Cuba uses these tools to restrict severely the exercise of fundamental human rights of expression, association, and assembly. The conditions in Cuba's prisons are inhuman, and political prisoners suffer additional degrading treatment and torture. In recent years, Cuba has added new repressive laws and continued prosecuting nonviolent dissidents while shrugging off international appeals for reform and placating visiting dignitaries with occasional releases of political prisoners.

<snip>

More at: http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/Cuba996-01.htm

[blindpig]

113. Nice try

Forgive me if I'm less than impressed. HRW is the same outfit that was the main cheerleader for the dismemberment of Yugoslavia. It is a pro-interventionist tool of the policy elite and is very selective in it's criticisms, somehow the US always gets kid glove treatment while those perceived enemies of the US get hammered.


***

Human Rights Watch operates a number of discriminatory exclusions, to maintain its American character, and that in turn reduces internal criticism of its limited perspective. Although it publishes material in foreign languages to promote its views, the organisation itself is English-only. More seriously, HRW discriminates on grounds of nationality. Non-Americans are systematically excluded at board level - unless they have emigrated to the United States. HRW also recruits its employees in the United States, in English. The backgrounds of the Committee members (below) indicate that HRW recruits it decision-makers from the upper class, and upper-middle class. Look at their professions: there are none from middle-income occupations, let alone any poor illegal immigrants, or Somali peasants.

Human Rights Watch can therefore claim no ethical superiority. It is itself involved in practices it condemns elsewhere, such as discrimination in employment, and exclusion from social structures. It can also claim no neutrality. An organisation which will not allow a Serb or Somali to be a board member, can give no neutral assessment of a Serbian or Somali state. It would probably be impossible for this all-American, English-only, elite organisation, to be anything else but paternalistic and arrogant. To the people who run HRW, the non-western world consists of a list of atrocities, and via the media they communicate that attitude to the American public. It can only dehumanise African, Asians, Arabs and eastern Europeans. Combined with a tendency to see the rest of the world as an enemy, that will contribute to new abuses and continuing civilian deaths, during America's crusades.

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/HRW.html

Just check out the personnel/donor information at the end of the link, the connections are obvious.

[AlphaCentauri]

53. lets just wait for those who exploit the welfare state see an end to the subsidize counter

revolution then we'll see people start taking rafts out of miami

[Pavulon]

55. Back to the stuff they owned in Cuba..

not all cubans in miami are poor. Many are well off. You think the money is going to slow down after castro croaks?

[AlphaCentauri]

59. The generation that owned stuff in Cuba is resting in peace already

what you may mean is, US citizens taking possession in Cuba?

[Judi Lynn]

58. That was the point of the Cuban Adjustment Act, to lure Cubans to Miami, and away from their homes.

In Miami they get instant legal status, no harrassment from the INS, instant access to work visas, social security, welfare, food stamps, Section 8 subsidized U.S. taxpayer-financed housing, medical treatment, and financial assistance for education, as well as a host of other details.

They make it profitable for Cubans to make the trip. It's intentional. It's political. It's not possible for any other national group from anywhere, even countries where the people are dying of starvation, like Haiti, or overwhelmed by actual death squads, like Haiti was when _Bush turned them lose on the Aristide supporters, after arming and outfitting and training them in the Dominican Republic.

As it is, there ARE Cubans who go home, anyway. You just don't hear about them. They are discussed in a book by former N.Y. Times writer, Ann Louise Bardach, Cuba Confidential: Love and Vengeance in Miami and Havana. She made many trips to Cuba researching it, and discovered sometimes they just go home, anyway, and sometimes they divide their time between the two places. We just don't get told about it, and live in utter ignorance, of course.

[Zorro]

22. Nothing's going to change

until Fidel takes a dirt nap.

Hopefully that happens soon.

[Tempest]

13. Fidel isn't part of the government anymore, genius

[LiberalFighter]

26. We have a diplomat in Cuba? If our citizens are not suppose to be there

then why do we need a state official in Cuba?

[Judi Lynn]

27. Wierd, isn't it? Sounds as if we need someone there to bribe Cubans to work against their government

They also hand out short wave radios to any Cubans who want them which are set to pick up the Radio Marti propaganda transmissions from Miami, from the station programmed, staffed, run by Cuban Americans at an enormous expense to the U.S. taxpayers.

The station isn't needed for news of the U.S., since Cubans can get radio and tv stations with no unusual equipment in their own homes. A Canadian DU'er who goes there on vacation has told DU'ers that she picks up US radio stations in Havana on her Walkman.

It does seem bizarre that the U.S. keeps the Interests Section going. I think the U.S. does rely on Cuba, behind the scene, to assist running down drug people going through their area, as they have turned some over, but it never gets acknowledged publicly here.

[Phoonzang]

19. I wonder if he's really still alive....

[Judi Lynn]

20. Evo Morales of Bolivia is in Cuba now, meeting with Raul and Fidel Castro.

He says Fidel Castro is "thin but very lucid."

[Vidar]

25. Take it from a real war hero, McCain.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[UTUSN]

34. THAT ought to make their stock RISE!1 n/t

[Steven_S]

64. McCain didn't attent West Point....

He went to US Naval Academy at Annapolis, where he was very near the bottom of the class.

Get the facts straight.

[Judi Lynn]

67. A forgiveable mistake for a very old man in another country to make who's been gravely ill. n/t

[Zorro]

70. Judi loves her some Fidel

[Judi Lynn]

72. Zorro loves him some Jesse Helms, some Mitch McConnell

Let's see if anyone can tell them apart:







Alright, who took Senator Mitch McConnell's and Senator Jesse Helms' chins?

[Zorro]

74. Nope

Don't like any of those Stalinist assholes.

[Mika]

73. The "debate" on this thread is easily solvable ...

Cuba = bad
USA = good

[GeniusLib]

77. I thought this clown died

[The Onyx Key]

80. On that day, I shall open a fine bottle of Champagne! n/t

[Mika]

86. Then I guess, accurately, you are ignorant about Cuba.

Therefore, you automatically become one of DU's Cuba "experts*" who can comment regularly about a country that you know almost nothing about.

* - that has never been there, nor studied much on the real Cuba.


-

[Judi Lynn]

89. Oh, Mika, facts, and thought only slow some people down, then we don't get the full benefit of their

"take" on the world. Wouldn't want to miss that, would we?

Nothing frees them as much as opening up, letting fly with attitudes, impressions, unconscious ravings, undigested propaganda bits without the confinement of having to stop first, and thinking about facts, and tiresome reality.

I had exactly the same reaction. They feel free to comment, but not free to know anything about the subject.

[The Onyx Key]

94. Wow! What staggering arrogance!

What's even more amazing is that you know how much I know about Cuba by my one short post!

Ah, well... keep drinking the kool-aid and selectively choosing your sources. It fuels your conviction and tightens the blinders.

Anyway, when Fidel bites the dust many will rejoice... including those who have been persecuted by him. Of course, it's too bad none of the dead can talk about it...

[Mika]

101. Those posts were in response to someone else's post, not yours.

Take some time and you'll notice on the right side of the posts is a Day, Date, Time, and Response to Reply #xx section.

Keep at it! :think: You'll learn how DU works sometime.

[The Onyx Key]

115. ..

[olddad56]

95. West Point? I thought he went to the Naval Academy?