COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - A woman suspected of making false abuse claims in Colorado used a telephon

[superconnected]

Source: Associated Press

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - A woman suspected of making false abuse claims in Colorado used a telephone number that was later used to report alleged abuse at a polygamist retreat in west Texas, according to an affidavit made public Wednesday.

It's not yet clear whether authorities suspect Rozita Swinton, 33, of Colorado Springs, made the calls that triggered an April 3 raid of the compound. The arrest warrant affidavit released Wednesday says that several calls alleging abuse there were made using several phone numbers, including the number linked to Swinton.

The more than 400 children found at the retreat in Eldorado are now in state custody. Texas officials and lawyers have said that even if the call that prompted the raid turned out to be a hoax it would not affect their custody case because the state acted in good faith.

Swinton's whereabouts were unknown and she did not immediately return a phone message. It wasn't known whether she had an attorney.



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080423/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat_colorado

[superconnected]

1. Now this is a slippery slope.

[rzemanfl]

2. I can't read that term without thinking of James Baker and the

2000 election theft that has done so much harm to this country.

[PSPS]

3. Not really

As the story notes, the agency acted in good faith. When performing their required investigation, they saw 15-year-old mothers. That's prima facie evidence of crime.

[DogPoundPup]

4. Where did you read about 15 yr. old mothers

Can you supply your source of that information?

[kestrel91316]

6. A press release by Texas DFPS explicitly mentioned FIVE

underage pregnant girls. They were discussed in the court hearing, IIRC.

[DogPoundPup]

10. What would be underage? Someone like.................

Britney Spears little sister? Someone that age? The little BRITNEY sis who is pregnant and getting a new Tee-Vee show?

:hi:

[piedmont]

24. Depends on the father's age in many cases.

Here's the info on Jamie Lynn Spears' case you were looking for:

"Spears claimed that the father of her unborn child was Casey Aldridge, 18, her longtime boyfriend whom she met at church.<13><14> Because Spears was below the age of consent for the state of California, questions came up regarding their age difference, and whether Aldridge could or would be charged with statutory rape.<15><13> However, The Department of Motor Vehicles of Mississippi confirmed that Aldridge was born on April 29, 1989, making him slightly less than two years older than Spears. In California, it is illegal for an adult to have intercourse with a person under the age of 18, but it is only a misdemeanor if the child is less than three years younger than the adult."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Lynn_Spears

[aquart]

25. Law usually recognizes teenagers' mutual lack of control.

Statutory rape laws are for young girls and men usually at least five years older on up. Men who do have the maturity to stop and just don't want to.

[Marrah_G]

41. Are you really this dense?

Do you honestly not see the difference between a girl being knocked up by her bf who is two years older and the following:

Girls who are "spiritually" married to a guy many decades older, who already has a few wives, whom she has never met, and is given a couple hours to emotionally deal with the fact that some stranger perhaps even older then her father is going to ave sex with her and she has to submit whether she likes it or not.

A girl with no understanding of her rights, no understanding that she is a human being and more then just breeding stock.

This is wrong on so many different levels and I cannot for a minute understand why you and the other handful of sick fucks insist on defending this crap.

[kestrel91316]

42. IMHO the people who think what the FLDS men did was ok are nothing

less than pedophiles who want to try to change public opinion about child rape.

They're not having much success, BTW. But the sock puppets keep coming - different couple or three names every day, I notice.

[High Plains]

45. Who says what the FLDS men did was okay?

Some of us have problems with the sweeping nature of the seizure of EVERY KID IN THE COMMUNITY.

And your fucking insults and insinuations reveal more about you than the people who disagree with you.

[DogPoundPup]

62. If I can't believe what the 'news' tells me about

critical information I SHOULD KNOW that is relevant to what MY Government is doing in my name, as I AM a citizen of this country, I sure as Heck am not going to get all caught up in a eye bugging frenzy such as you have yourself in just because you heard some second hand info (from the new$ people who make lots and lots of $$$$$$$ if you tune in to watch their sensationalism) and from some 'local official' who's ass is now legally on the line, as we've come to find out, some pregnant 16 yr. old supposedly knocked up by some old geezer CAN NOT BE FOUND!

[DogPoundPup]

59. Whatever ...

These kids have clothes on their back. They are well nourished and in good physical condition.

Next you will be in favor of going after the Amish to invade their homes and confiscate all their many children and disrupt their way of life too? You think for one minute that you are going to save the world by breaking up this clan, you are sadly mistaken. Stay out of everyone else's business and STOP USING THE F word.

Man you are really into the sick side of the rumors the news is feeding you aren't you? Look around in this world of ours here in America. Kids need help in every town and neighborhood. Kids that are abused mentally or physically or both. Ignored nutritionally, spiritually, and educationally unfed day after day. but since the news has a spotlight on this group, you want to campaign against them as if you really know what is happening there cause you saw it with your own eyes. Now if that were the case, I might tend to be more suspicious, but at this point I'm not going to join in on the frenzy.

[Marrah_G]

77. Okay here I go

"These kids have clothes on their back. They are well nourished and in good physical condition."
______________________________

Black slaves in the south also had clothes, food and were usually pretty physically healthy, sort of like making sure your livestock is wellfed. Many abused people are clothed and wellfed.
______________________________

"Next you will be in favor of going after the Amish to invade their homes and confiscate all their many children and disrupt their way of life too? "
______________________________

The Amish encourage their children to go out into the real world and live before choosing to live the Amish life. They also do not hide their children away behind walls or marry them off to old men as soon as they start their menses. They do not make their children fearful of the outside world and do not deny them an education. They do not throw 14 year olds out on the side of the road so they won't be competition for wives.

______________________________

"You think for one minute that you are going to save the world by breaking up this clan, you are sadly mistaken. Stay out of everyone else's business and STOP USING THE F word."
_______________________________

No I will not shut up. I will use the F word when appropriate. I will continue to speak out about the enslavement and oppression of women around the world until my dying breath.
_______________________________

"Man you are really into the sick side of the rumors the news is feeding you aren't you? "

_______________________________

I have been well aware of the horrors of this cult for many years. I have actually taken the time to read and research.

_______________________________

"Look around in this world of ours here in America. Kids need help in every town and neighborhood. Kids that are abused mentally or physically or both. Ignored nutritionally, spiritually, and educationally unfed day after day. but since the news has a spotlight on this group, you want to campaign against them as if you really know what is happening there cause you saw it with your own eyes. Now if that were the case, I might tend to be more suspicious, but at this point I'm not going to join in on the frenzy."
________________________________

There is plenty wrong in the world. There are plenty of kids living in bad situations. Just because we cannot save them all at the same time does not mean that we ignore a huge den of abuse when it is found. This particular den of abuse and criminal activity has been allowed to fester for far to long.
________________________________

In Conclusion:

Go do some reading. Watch some documentaries. Talk to some of the people who escaped.

Then ask yourself....how many other places in the country can a woman not just pack her children and drive away? How many live in compounds with armed guards where the razor wire points inward. The ex-members did not leave...they escaped, often in the middle of the night, scared for their lives. Slaves escape, captives escape.

I have to wonder: Do you also think the Taliban should be left alone to their "culture"?

[rcsl1998]

5. Colorado Springs Is Also Home To James Dobson's Focus On The Family

...and numerous other like groups (not to mention the Air Force) - Is there any connection?

[JeanGrey]

7. Thank god she did.

[yardwork]

8. I wonder if somebody encouraged her to make these calls.

I've wondered about the timing of this raid. While it appears that Texas has very good reasons for placing these children in foster care, it's likely to cause a backlash. Backlashes like that never help Democrats. I feel as if the extreme right stirs up these kinds of cases just when they need to scare a couple hundred million people back into thinking that "liberals" will take away their children and guns.

I just wonder if this whole thing was planned to have an impact on the November elections.

[DogPoundPup]

23. I can't see how this would be a backlash against the left. If any...

backlash were to be felt it would be agianst the horrendous war planning the con administration has performed in Afghanistan...

Women's lives worse than ever, By Terri Judd Monday, 25 February 2008 : Grinding poverty and the escalating war is driving an increasing number of Afghan families to sell their daughters into forced marriages.

Girls as young as six are being married into a life of slavery and rape, often by multiple members of their new relatives. Banned from seeing their own parents or siblings, they are also prohibited from going to school. With little recognition of the illegality of the situation or any effective recourse, many of the victims are driven to self-immolation – burning themselves to death – or severe self-harm.

Six years after the US and Britain "freed" Afghan women from the oppressive Taliban regime, a new report proves that life is just as bad for most, and worse in some cases.

Read more @ http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/womens-lives-worse-than-ever-786752.html

[yardwork]

26. The Republicans will spin it into an example of "liberal" interference into personal rights.

They got a lot of mileage out of Waco, Ruby Ridge, and other incidents like this. Meanwhile, you won't see anything in the news about women's rights in Saudi Arabia or Iraq. You'll see a lot about women's rights being oppressed in Iran...

[LisaL]

28. I think it's very unlikely someone encouraged her, for the

reason that she is allegedly done similar things prior to this one, pretending to be an abused teenage girl and calling for help.

[yardwork]

31. Who gave her the phone numbers to call?

You're probably right, but I wonder. I don't put anything past the right-wing at this point. Nothing.

The day that her picture appeared in papers for the first time, there was a low-poster here on DU stating that "I heard that she's a delegate for Obama." Very suspicious.

[LisaL]

32. I imagine she found the numbers herself.

She allegedly has done that sort of thing numerous times.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695273270,00.html

[ThoughtCriminal]

9. Just wondering

But did check to see if the phone number belongs to a Family Shelter? Same number does not mean same person.

[1monster]

11. With cell phones, numbers change hands on a regular basis. I got a new

cell phone number a little over a year ago and I was inundated with calls for the previous owner of the phone number from bill collectors. It got so bad that I finally called the bill collection agency and told them to write down the number and make sure that they never called it again, because if they did, I was taking my phone to the State's Attorney and pressing charges of harassment against them since I had told them repeatedly that I was not the person they were looking for, that I did not know him, and they responded by making robo recorded calls.

So, it is possible that Swinton had nothing to do with the call that brought in the authorties.

Then again, she may have.

Either way, apparently evidence of child abuse was found. Which would mean the actions taken by the Texas authorities were warrented.

[superconnected]

12. Swinton has a history of this and prentending she's underaged - from the article

"Swinton was arrested April 16 and later released on a misdemeanor charge of false reporting in a February case in Colorado Springs with no known ties to the raid in west Texas. She's accused of posing as a teenager named "Jennifer" and falsely claiming in a 911 call that her father had locked her in her basement for days, the arrest warrant affidavit released Wednesday said.

Swinton pleaded guilty to misdemeanor false reporting in a 2005 case out of Castle Rock, Colo.; a one-year sentence was deferred. She had claimed in phone calls to be a 16-year-old named Jessica who was suicidal after giving birth; there was no baby."

"The warrant also links Swinton to calls made throughout October from a "Dana Anderson." The caller claimed to be a young woman being abused by her pastor at Colorado Springs' New Life Church, and later as a 13-year-old student at Liberty High School who said she was being drugged and sexually abused by her father."

[fed_up_mother]

27. Is it just me, or does it seem this woman is crying out for help?

I'm not excusing her behavior, just wondering...

[DogPoundPup]

13. "Either way, apparently evidence of child abuse was found. "

APPARENTLY??????? Like there were apparently weapons of mass destruction in Iraq way back when we were told we needed to preemptively invade their country?

[superconnected]

14. Tank and black outfits for the sherifs squad. Now that is scary!

[1monster]

21. Agreed. The militarization of the civilian police force has really gotten out of hand.

Armored vehicles and masks?

This all started in the seventies, I think, with SWAT teams. Then it was just a special force for extreme situations.

Now it seems that all law enforcement entities are given combat/occupation training for use against the civilian population.

[PSPS]

15. What's so hard to understand?

"apparently weapons of mass destruction in Iraq" was a lie.

Seeing pregnant 15-year-old girls isn't a lie.

[razors edge]

18. Have you seen them?

I haven't

[LisaL]

29. Exactly.

[girl gone mad]

71. How's that math coming along, lizzy?

Yesterday they discovered that another 25 of the mothers were minors. That makes at least 30 underage mothers. 30 out of (as near as I can gather) less than 100 teenage girls. A greater than 30% teen pregnancy rate.

Get it? Or do you still want to tell us how this wholesome community is doing a better job raising their teenagers than the average Texas family?

[dropkickpa]

61. And you probably won't

The identities of rape victims and child victims of abuse are *usually* protected in the media, and sometimes protected by state law

Here's a page from the National Center for Victims of Crime addressing this

http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32473

Texas Family Code §261.201

§ 261.201. CONFIDENTIALITY AND DISCLOSURE OF
INFORMATION.

(a) The following information is confidential, is
not subject to public release under Chapter 552, Government Code,
and may be disclosed only for purposes consistent with this code and
applicable federal or state law or under rules adopted by an
investigating agency:
        (1) a report of alleged or suspected abuse or neglect made under this chapter and the identity
          of the person making the report; and
        (2) except as otherwise provided in this section, the files, reports, records, communications,
          audiotapes, videotapes, and working papers used or developed in an investigation under this
          chapter or in providing services as a result of an investigation.
(b) A court may order the disclosure of information that is confidential under this section if:
        (1) a motion has been filed with the court requesting the release of the information;
        (2) a notice of hearing has been served on the investigating agency and all other interested
         parties; and
        (3) after hearing and an in camera review of the requested information, the court determines
          that the disclosure of the requested information is:
                 (A) essential to the administration of justice; and
                 (B) not likely to endanger the life or safety of:
                        (i) a child who is the subject of the report of alleged or
                            suspected abuse or neglect;
                          (ii) a person who makes a report of alleged or suspected abuse or
                            neglect; or
                          (iii) any other person who participates in an investigation of
                            reported abuse or neglect or who provides care for the child.
(c) In addition to Subsection (b), a court, on its own motion, may order disclosure of information
that is confidential under this section if:
        (1) the order is rendered at a hearing for which all parties have been given notice;
        (2) the court finds that disclosure of the information is:
                 (A) essential to the administration of justice; and
                 (B) not likely to endanger the life or safety of:
                          (i) a child who is the subject of the report of alleged or
                            suspected abuse or neglect;
                          (ii) a person who makes a report of alleged or suspected abuse or
                            neglect; or
                          (iii) any other person who participates in an investigation of
                            reported abuse or neglect or who provides care for the child; and
        (3) the order is reduced to writing or made on the record in open court.

[DogPoundPup]

20. Where is the link for the pregnant 15 yr. olds

How do you know they were 15 yrs. old? Cause the news media told you so?

That's what I'm having a hard time dealing with.

[LanternWaste]

34. No--- because TX CPS issued that statement last week.

Cause the news media told you so?


No--- because TX CPS issued that statement last week.

(Unless you think that CPS is part of your vast, one-world, nazification of the whole universe criminal syndicate....)

[LisaL]

35. I am going to wait for the actual facts, thank you very much.

There've been claims made that it was hard to say how old these children and teenagers were.
And by the way the children have to be in imminent danger to be removed.
What imminent danger were the boys in?
There is no accusations they were married off at 15.

[LanternWaste]

36. Seems to me that the burden of evidence lies with the critic.

Anyone/anything else you expect 100% accuracy in all things from....?

Seems to me that the burden of evidence lies with the critic. At least, that's what Logic classes dictated.


Hmmmm....

[LisaL]

37. Actually, burden of evidence lies with someone who makes claims.

It's not possible to prove the negative.

[LanternWaste]

40. Guess my college classes were wrong and you're right...

Guess my college classes were wrong and you're right... :sarcasm:

"It's not possible to prove the negative."
Yet it is possible to disprove the claim CPS made, yes?

[uppityperson]

47. oh dear, they are back and arguing again?

But *I* didn't see the CPS report so it "couldn't" be true? incredible. Thank you for your patience.

[razors edge]

16. Either way,

these people have got one hell of a strong law suit against the government here.

That is, IMHO, why they pulled out all the stops and DNA tested everyone. The Gov will need to find a systemic pattern here or the innocent families will clean the out.

[truthisfreedom]

17. I wouldn't be surprised if the calls that came in about Saddam's WMDs came from that same phone #.

Seems as likely as anything.

[1monster]

19. The underaged mothers who are being allowed to stay with their children?

The bed in the temple that was used for much older "husbands" to have sex with their underaged "wives"...

I'm not sure you understand that when Child Protective Services receive an allegation of child abuse, the CPS is requied by law to investigate within twenty-four hours.

CPS will have to come up with hard evidence of abuse when these cases come to court. If they don't, then that Mormon sect will own the state of Texas. They have the money needed to hire Big Gun Lawyers.

[DogPoundPup]

22. Come on now....

"The bed in the temple that was used for much older "husbands" to have sex with their underaged "wives"..."

All hearsay. Sure makes for a sensational news day for the msm though, so :shrug: .... they'll be glad to report it to you that way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm not sure you understand that when Child Protective Services receive an allegation of child abuse, the CPS is requied by law to investigate within twenty-four hours."

Yes, CPS needs to investigate any reports of neglect, but when they don't find any...especially the victim who called saying she was raped by a stinky old geezer, then they leave and chalk it up as a prank.

The rest of your post I agree with.

[LisaL]

30. There was testimony during the hearing that the bed was used

for them to take a rest because they pray so much, not to have sex. People immediately assume the worst.
Like there is no other purpose for the bed than to have sex.

[1monster]

39. Okay. I hadn't heard that. I did read, posted on DU, that the bed had been

used for less than salubrious purposes. I assumed, incorrectly, that since the news story stated it as fact that it was established face. (Of course, as my long departed grandfather used to say, "Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear or read." I should have followed that advice.

Still, to have removed over four hundred children, I have to believe that they had sufficient reason. If not, as I stated above, that sect will own Texas and all of its tax payers.

Most CPS workers do care about the welfare of children... at least in the beginning until they get burned out or can't take it anymore. CPS has a tremendous turnover in all states because after a while the workers just can't take it anymore. They are over worked, underpaid witness absolutely dreadful neglect and abuse of children, and their decisions can mean the difference between life and literally death for the children under their CPS protection.

[LanternWaste]

33. No-- more like pregnant teenagers.

"Like there were apparently weapons of mass destruction ...?"

No-- more like pregnant teenagers.


But yeah-- comparing abused children to the Iraqi Occupation is so very clever...

[LisaL]

38. There are plenty of pregnant teenagers in TX.

They don't just live on this ranch.

[uppityperson]

48. I am so glad that you are focusing your attention on getting them the support and help they need.

You must be deeply involved in pregnant teen assistance groups. Thank you for all the time, energy, and money you put into this cause. I am sure all those pregnant teens you help are grateful.

[LanternWaste]

52. And comparing...

And comparing abused children to the Iraqi Occupations is still ever so clever....

[girl gone mad]

72. Can you give me some statistics..

on how many teen pregnancies in Texas are the result of statutory rape?

At YFZ, that rate is 100%.

[AngryAmish]

43. This is very strange

By all known evidence, this sect is very strange and in my opinion, criminal. Horrific tales of abuse have come out in the past.

However, it appears that a proximate cause of the current raid was false. I'm sure that the authorities have had their eye on these guys for a while. When a too good to check allegation came through they raided.

[Uncle Joe]

46. After this timely Supreme Court decision, there is no more Fourth Amendment.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3280215&mesg_id=3280215

I believe from this point on, your guilty first until proven innocent, not the other way around.

[uppityperson]

49. That is scary, but child welfare issues take precedence.

In many, if not most, places in the USA, if a teacher or health care provider thinks they see evidence of child endangerment, child abuse, they are obligated by law to report it. No, it doesn't always happen, but the law says it must. If a report comes in, CPS (or whatever that particular state's acronym is) is obligated by law to investigate.

[Uncle Joe]

50. I can understand that, I also believe that's much easier understood

if your family isn't one of them being ripped apart, when you weren't involved with the abuse, then I imagine it becomes a nightmare.

I don't recall them ever breaking up Catholic families when the priest child abuse scandals were breaking.

Some people will say this a cult or a sect, well two thousand years ago Christianity was a cult or sect with it's practices outlawed by the state.

[uppityperson]

51. Catholic priest abuse scandals involved people in their adulthood now.

Adults who were coming forward to say they were abused as kids.

I don't see how these 2 situations compare. A closed society where statutory rape is common. A city where a priest sexually abuses children attending his church.

[Uncle Joe]

53. 1. How common is this statutory rape, it hasn't been proven in court?

2. As these adults came forward and said they were abused as children from priests, how does anyone know this still doesn't go on?

3. Yes this is is a closed society but is that illegal now?

Whatever you think of Joseph Smith and the Mormons, he should never have been lynched. Native Americans were different so they put them on reservations, Japanese Americans were different during WW2, so they put them in internment camps. Throughout our history we've thrown the baby out with the bath water, and then come back later to regret it, this seems the same to me.

[uppityperson]

54. NA were put on res to take their land and the resources.

1. FLDS people has said common. FLDS "rules" (can't think of right word, sorry) say girls/women must be sweet, and be there to give men enough wives.

2. We don't know. But still not comparable situations.

3. Who said it was illegal? I am simply pointing out there is a big difference between a closed society and a city where a priest sexually abuses children attending his church.

And no, Native Americans were moved to reservations not because they were "different", but to take their land and resources.

This is a complicated thing going on, and yes I have issues with parts of it also.

[Uncle Joe]

55. I agree on the taking of the land and resources, however

I can't help but believe our cultural, physical and religious differences played a magnifying role in the decision to dehumanize them. They were different worshiping earth or nature gods instead of temple gods.

1. Personally I prefer my women to be sour or tart, but that's just me, I hope that doesn't warrant arrest. Seriously These people have been in a closed society for 150 years, what does sweet mean? Their ways may be old fashioned, if it's polygamy, arrest the polygamists, if it's child abuse, arrest the abusers, but this scooping up an entire community and breaking their families seemed heavy handed to me.

2. I honestly don't believe you should break up Catholic Families either, but they do wear like uniforms to school, and go in to a booth and confess to God knows what.:)

[uppityperson]

57. Having read some but not a huge amount, definition of "sweet" is not what I use.

"Sweet" meaning do what you are told, don't talk back, don't look at others, don't sing, dance, skip. I am not an expert, by no means not, but it seems to take that good old fundamentalist view of anything that feels good is bad, and combine it with that other good old fundamentalist view that women are infantile and men are Superior in All Ways.

Fundamentalism. Taking fear and control and running amok with it. Bah. I can see other such ways/groups of being in the USA now, have been for a long time, will always be some. The upsurge in fundamentalist thought is the one I find scary.

Edited to add, thanks for the civil discourse. Am getting tired of uncivility on DU from the uncivil.

[Uncle Joe]

58. I understand how you feel about that.

I find that kind of thinking backward as well.

Peace to you

UJ

[Marrah_G]

78. You cannot compare this to Catholisism

I have my own gripes with that church as my own family was harmed by a priest in MA.

But no one has to "escape" from the church. No woman has to get in her car, dodge gun carrying guards, and drive off into the night to escape enslavement by a priest. No catholic children are denied an education, locked up behind walls or have the entire church present while they are "spiritually married" to some old man with a half dozen other wives. Catholic priest abuse was not something done in front of the whole damn congragation. What the FLDS did was.

I am the first one to stand up for religious rights. I am Wiccan. I have had my religion questioned by DSS.

But religion can never be an excuse for the enslavement, oppression and rape of others. It is wrong.

[Uncle Joe]

81. I'm trying to hold my judgment

until they've been to court as to who did what.

[Marrah_G]

82. I can understand that.

[musette_sf]

64. what about the children

who were sent to Eldorado from Canada? what about their "family breakup"?

[Uncle Joe]

66. I'm not

familiar with the details of this, but I'm against any children being ripped away from their parents, unless there is evidence of abuse.

[musette_sf]

68. child rape is abuse

grooming children for sex with adults is abuse.

so IMHO the children were, quite rightly, removed from an abusive environment for their physical and mental safety.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/04/23/polygamist-tx.html

"Some of the children taken from the ranch are reportedly Canadian, likely from the B.C. polygamist community of Bountiful."

oh, and here's the latest - 25 more of the mothers are now believed to be minors. these poor girls are some of the mothers allowed to stay with their very small children. :cry: :scared:

http://www.9wsyr.com/news/national/story.aspx?content_id=f7d5d96d-1bcc-40ca-81d9-66e7421339eb

[Uncle Joe]

69. I agree, this is a tragedy.

I wonder if their parents in the Eldorado compound are Canadian as well?

"Some of the children taken from the ranch are reportedly Canadian, likely from the B.C. polygamist community of Bountiful."

I'm still trying to get my head around these numbers, basically how does the total number of underage mothers compare to the national average?

"SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) - The number of children in Texas custody after being taken from a polygamist retreat now stands at 462 because officials believe another 25 mothers from the compound are under 18. "

Thanks for the links, musett_sf.

[girl gone mad]

74. The thing is..

FLDS breaks the bonds between children and parents at birth. The children are not allowed to know who their mother is and the mothers are allowed very little time with their children.

It isn't a normal nuclear family environment like what you are imagining. It is a very rigid, institutionalized lifestyle. The children form strong bonds with each other, which is why many of the children are being kept together by CPS.

[Uncle Joe]

80. If FLDS broke the bonds between children and parent

that didn't show in the mother's faces.

[girl gone mad]

73. Were the parents involved in the rape by priests?

This is a false analogy.

As to your last comment, societies evolve. Religion has evolved. Slavery used to be legal. Women used to be denied the vote. This cult is breaking modern laws. Laws that have meaning and purpose, and are based in a much more enlightened view of human rights than what existed 2000 years ago. Children deserve to grow up in an environment free of abuse and rape.

[Uncle Joe]

79. That's just it

I don't know that all the parents were involved with any rape of their children in the compound, how many were?

At this point, they haven't been to trial and yet their children were snatched away from them on a massive scale.

Maybe your right and they should have been, but I hate passing judgment until they've been to trial.

Yes societies evolve but not all of them at the same pace and while I agree with the issues you mentioned as being positive or good evolvement, not all evolvemnt is good or positive.

One could even look at the evil institution of slavery as evolvement to what existed before, evolvement simply means change, most of the time for the better but not always.

[snooper2]

44. If I call the cops...

and tell them a new blue full size ford truck with license plate 43R-77H just shot at me twice while driving down the highway. And provide exact location of the truck and they pull the guy over...

And in subsequent search of that vehicle recovers 10 live grenades and 20 pounds of heroin...

That guy is going to jail...even though I tell the cops after the fact I made the whole thing up.

[treestar]

56. The evidence could be thrown out under the exclusionary rule

If the warrant was obtained due to the lies.

The lawyers in this case are going to challenge the affidavits of probable cause. That's their job.

[superconnected]

60. Okay, I don't like the cult, but I also don't agree with the search and seizure now. It was on false

grounds. If the gov invades my home, they better have a valid reason.

The woman who called was known for pretending she was underage and reporting fake sexual abuse. They traced the call to her number, which takes less than 10 seconds for most of us with *69 on our phones.

And the judge signed the warrant to search the place and take the kids, without checking on who called first.

I don't like the logic of "the evidence found fits the reason to search concept". I don't care what the evidence found is, if they don't have a legitimate reason to be there in the first place.

Excuse me you overzealous child protectors but throwing out all of our rights so some kids don't get abused is the direct path to having no rights where all people get abused. Invoking a police state is not the road to a safer tomorrow.

I'm for them taking the kids - AFTER they find a reason that they have a legitmate complaint to go in for. They don't have that here. What they have is a place searched and 400 kids siezed for what they most likely knew was a fake complaint to start with.

My rights and your rights are on the table at this point since they knew the complaint was fake to begin with. And they did.

[superconnected]

63. In police states - people get gunned down by the gov or simply arrested

with no fair trials to set them free.

invoking a police state is worse than molesting 15yo's imo.

[DogPoundPup]

65. People (some DU'ers) STILL can't wake up and smell the coffee

and realize that this gubmerment of ours doesn't care one iota about citizens rights, yet they'll let themselves get all worked up and ready to kill anyone that their gubmerment points a finger at ( a fantasy diversion). It is mind boggling especially when they --the DU'ers-- are right here day after day reading the editorials and articles that explain day in and day out how our gubement is screwing us over royally day after day.

Geez, talk about gullible! Reading with eyes shut maybe?

Anyhow, I appreciated your post :smile:

[notesdev]

70. The police state is the real threat

The time will come when many of the same folks here who are breathlessly awaiting any information that might create ends that could be argued to post-facto justify the outrageous means of the police state, will themselves chafe against the monster they are today helping to feed.

[girl gone mad]

75. The children and women lived in a police state..

and LE rescued them.

Any evidence seized in the raid will probably be thrown out in court. No significant changes in the law as it has stood for decades.

Fortunately, victims, not evidence, is what was primarily taken so the case against the FLDS abusers remains strong.

[girl gone mad]

76. I see a few posters..

going overboard with the "police state" canard.

There is no precedent being set here.

Laws are being followed. Government agencies are acting appropriately.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

67. We really don't know that she's the person who triggered the raid yet.

We know that she's been guilty of making false claims in the past. We know that someone with the same cell number as her (probably her) called the crisis center in Texas regarding Eldorado's group. We don't know if her calls triggered the raid yet though. It should be something they can verify however since in my experience you have to keep a log of all the calls that come into a womens crisis center. The should be able to cross reference and see if any of the calls which came from the alleged victim were made at the same time as any of the calls being made by this person.

I imagine that crisis center had to deal with a great many fake complaints regarding the Eldorado group since it's moved there four years ago.