ACLU Sues Over Paper Ballots in Ohio

[ursi]

Source: Associated Press

CLEVELAND (AP) — The American Civil Liberties Union asked a federal judge on Monday to block the March 4 presidential primary in Ohio's biggest county if it switches to a paper ballot system that doesn't allow voters to correct errors.

In a follow-up to a suit it filed Jan. 17, the ACLU of Ohio asked for a preliminary injunction against any election in Cuyahoga County if the switch is made.

The lawsuit argued that the proposed paper-ballot system would violate voters' constitutional rights because it doesn't allow them to correct errors on ballots before they are cast.

"The evidence is overwhelming that when voters do not have access to technology that notifies them of ballot errors, many more ballots are left uncounted," said Meredith Bell-Platts, a voting-rights attorney with the ACLU.

Read more: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5he8Blnwws1k9ho3ArBE4wYNydVFwD8UF99480

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This is outrageous!

[Demeter]

1. Maybe the Ohio Election Boards Should Take Classes to the North

In Michigan we have a "Spoiled Ballot" process that handily deals with this issue...it's very simple to implement and no one has ever had a complaint about it. :sarcasm:

[RantinRavin]

2. So now the ACLU thinks Ohio voters are stupid

and can't look to see if more than one name has a bubble filled in ?

~~sorry, meant this to be a relpy to the original post, not your reply~~

[ursi]

3. I am offended by the ACLU case ...what jerks ...I want paper ballots

[Ms. Toad]

9. It's not about paper ballots v. non-paper

Its about how the paper ballots are counted (cart them to a central location or count them on site).

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3160424&mesg_id=3160532

A few ballots disappearing en route to being counted is one of the oldest methods of election fraud there is. Although that isn't the focus of this lawsuit, it ought to be a concern for anyone worried about the possibility of election fraud. If the paper ballots are counted on site, you at least have paper ballots which should match the count in the event there is a question later.

(Edited to add the missing half of a parenthesis)

[ohio2007]

21. "It doesn't matter who votes that counts.It's who counts the votes",Joseph Stalin

ACLU is itching to count the votes of the "disenfranchised".
Only to make sure they voted the way they are supposed to.

The ACLU should concern themselves with larger cities outside the pivotal rustbelt "target audience"

[Ms. Toad]

23. Cuyahoga County is the only county

in Ohio whose voting protocol is being dictated by the state. Otherwise, I'm not sure what your point is.

[bean fidhleir]

27. Many people check off and write in the same name, causing an "overvote"

Surely you remember that from Florida2K

[liberalnurse]

4. was the last time they accepted a needed case where true disenfranchisement occurred?

They have become the whinny voice instead of a defender of great causes.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

18. Disagree.

The ACLU is one of the great institutions in our country. One of the few.

[Kolesar]

5. Punched card "butterfly ballots" have a high probability for overvotes and other errors

I don't see how optically-scanned ballots have such a high probability for error. The text is printed on the ballot right there next to the "ovals" is it not?

[Demeter]

6. Not Everyone Grew Up Filling in Ovals

The older voters especially get confused.

That's why we have these million dollar machines that will fill out your ballot with the touch of a few selections---only nobody uses the damn things! It's part of that Help America Vote scam.

[Kolesar]

7. Bit of dry humor, I see

:lol: But how is filling in an oval next to somebody's name any different than putting an X in the box next to some candidate's name?

[Demeter]

10. As a Poll Inspector I Have Seen Everything Imaginable

Too many people cannot follow simple directions, we election workers cannot instruct voters by law, and the ballot changes every time, so once the voter figures it out, the lesson is useless.

Now, most people can grasp the X in the box concept, and I hope we revert to that, but I'm not holding my breath or anything.

[Kolesar]

13. Did you actually see improper filling in of ovals? eom

[Demeter]

15. Oh Yes! When We Had to Hand Count the Write In Votes

We first had to separate them out from the general pile, since the Diebold machine did not operate properly (it's supposed to shuttle write-in ballots to a separate container, but it never does so accurately).

It was an education in how people don't follow directions even with diagrams.

[Kolesar]

16. Despair

BTW, did you find your sig line Abbey quote at www.northernsun.com ? I had their bumpersticker on my peace van for several years until it split up and I had to strip it off.

[Demeter]

17. I Found It At ICH

I get their newletter, which has little quotes every issue.

[joeglow3]

26. I know I am cynical, but

If people can't figure out how to fill in a circle next to the candidate they want, I am not too concerned about their vote not counting. Seriously, if they can't figure that out, I am guessing they can't tell you anything about any of the candidates either.

[karynnj]

14. Interesting observation - Does anyone know when the standardized tests etc became common

I know I had them in grade school and I am 57. Anyone either know when they started or have an earlier point they know of and are willing to admit to?

[Demeter]

25. Iowa Tests Claim to Have Started in 1942, Optical Reading in 1953

http://www.pearsonedmeasurement.com/aboutus/history.htm

[Ms. Toad]

8. This is not about paper ballots, per se

(This is directed to several responses, as well as the original poster)

It is about treating residents of Cuyahoga County (Cleveland) differently than the rest of the state. However you feel about paper ballots and/or electronic voting, this should matter to you - and on this board it should especially matter since those potentially disenfranchised voters are likely to vote for Democrats.

Everyone else in the state has a chance to get feedback as to whether they have made a mistake which jeopardizes their vote in any individual race. Residents of Cuyahoga County will not. If they made a mistake, their vote in one or more races will either not count - or be counted differently than they may have intended.

Both touch screen and precinct-based optical scan systems reject overvotes - touch screen by refusing to let you select extra candidates or responses, optical scan by kicking the ballot back out of the machine for you to fix it. Same thing with undervotes. Touch screens generally tell you you could have voted for additional candidates (in a pick no more than X race). Optical scan systems generally do, as well.

In Cuyahoga County, voters will mark their ballots and leave. Their ballots will be bundled up and carted to another location for counting (fwiw - it is far easier to fix an election by altering paper ballots before they are counted than to rig machines so this also ought to be a concern to those worried about election fraud). They are run through the scanner (assuming they all make it there, as originally marked). Overvotes are rejected. The vote is lost in that race. (There may be a means for adjudication, but it relies on third parties looking at a ballot to see if they can figure out what the voter meant - that worked so well in Floridan in 2000 :sarcasm: ) Undervotes remain undervoted - if the omission of a second or third race in, say a City Council race, was inadvertent the voter never gets a chance to correct it.

Paper ballots are just fine with me - but they should be counted where they are cast - and at a bare minimum, one County should not be forced to treat its voters differently than other voters in the state are being treated (and, in case you didn't know, Cuyahoga County is being forced to use central count - it has no say in the matter).

[Demeter]

11. My God! That's Heinous! The ACLU is Justified To File Suit.

Thanks for the briefing.

[Kolesar]

12. SOS Brunner went with central optical counting because of cost and training

1. Did not want Cuyahoga Cty to have to buy counters for *every* one of huge number of voting locations.

2. Training--did not want to have to train a huge number of employees before the March primary. Look at how horribly previous elections under Michael Vu at Cuyahoga County BOE went. The Plain Dealer had a front page photo of Vu holding up tangled paper tapes at electronic voting machines. The operators were not trained properly.

Your comment about people changing votes before the ballots are transferred to the counting location are purely hypothetical. We can and should expect the staff to actually control the handling of the ballots. The old, incompetent Cuyahoga BOE were sacked for that reason. Two employees went to jail.

[Ms. Toad]

22. Boards of Education should implement policies

regarding ballot control. The problem is, that they have never been very good at that (BOEs, in general, not just Cuyahoga County - you don't think it was "just" Cuyahoga County that fixed the recount - they are just the poster child that got caught. I am familiar with at least two other counties which did the same thing - and I suspect it happened at least as often as it was done correctly.

Back when punch card ballots were used, in a county adjacent to Cuyahoga County, bags of uncounted ballots were fairly regularly left unprotected in the hallway. Currently, voting machines are sent home on "sleepovers" or are left in unlocked rooms and/or buildings used as polling places for extended periods in advance of voting.

As for people changing votes before the ballots are transferred to the counting location being purely hypothetical - you might want to do a little research into the history of fixing elections before you reject it as purely hypothetical. Before there were allegations of rigged electronic voting machines, there was the reality of all sorts of creative low-tech ways to rig an election, including messing with the physical ballots before they were counted (selective losses, replacement with differently marked ballots, added ballots, etc.) You might even just look at the recent history of electronic ballot boxes that never made it to the central location.

Given that reality, it is much safer to count the ballots on site, as is done in every other county in Ohio,

[ohio2007]

20. " disenfranchised voters are likely to vote for Democrats."

That's almost a racist comment.

[Ms. Toad]

24. Don't be silly.

The comment was, "those potentially disenfranchised voters are likely to vote for Democrats." "Those" refers back to the voters I suggested in the previous sentence might be disenfranchised - "residents of Cuyahoga County." Cuyahoga County historically votes for Democratic candidates at a higher rate than they vote for Republican candidates. If you disenfranchise Cuyahoga County voters, all else being equal, a higher proportion of "those" disenfranchised voters" would have been Democratic voters.

If you are inferring something raced based in that race-neutral, statistically accurate observation perhaps you need to examine your own assumptions.

[ohio2007]

19. Next, the ACLU will want to count the "chads" if poll results don't match the "exit poll" #'s

....unless the side the ACLU is polling for wins the election of course.