Germany moves to ban Scientology

[eppur_se_muova]

Source: AP/CNN

BERLIN, Germany (AP) -- Germany's top security officials said Friday they consider the goals of Church of Scientology to be in conflict with the principles of the nation's constitution and will seek to ban the organization.

The interior ministers of the nation's 16 states plan to give the nation's domestic intelligence agency the task of preparing the necessary information to ban the organization, which has been under observation for a decade on allegations that it "threatens the peaceful democratic order" of the country.

The ministers, as well as federal Interior Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble, "consider Scientology to be an organization that is not compatible with the constitution," said Berlin Interior Minister Ehrhart Koerting, who presided over the officials' two-day conference.

Sabine Weber, President of the Church of Scientology in Berlin, said she views the renewed attempt to ban the organization as a reaction to increasing acceptance of Scientologists in several European countries.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/12/07/germany.scientology.ap/index.html

[slackmaster]

1. The entire country will be branded as Suppressive

:rofl:

[cbmanchester]

11. And they were being so tolerant lately!

Shame. I hope there's not that many Scientologists in Poland...

[sasquatch]

2. Good work, Deutschland

You now have my permission to abduct and deprogram Katie Holmes.

[Mojorabbit]

3. I don't know as I agree with this

If people wsant to follow this faith what is the problem?

[knight_of_the_star]

6. I don't think its because of the precepts of the religion

So much as the practices of the Church itself like how it seeks to destroy their critics as completely as possible.

[wtmusic]

21. In that case they'd be better off dealing with the practices

and letting people believe what they want to believe. This "banning" stuff coming out of Germany sounds ominous.

[Deep13]

45. I dunno, if that's the reason then it is a criminal organization...

...not unlike the mob. Once you're in, you can't publicly criticize it without retaliation. While I can't say their ideas are that much crazier than other religions, scientology seems to be different in that it is aggressively marketed and dissenting views are aggressively suppressed. Other religions in Germany may be as bad in theory, but not in practice.

I'm just supposing here, of course. I will say Europe generally does not take the same "benign neutrality" approach as the 1st Amendment. France, for example, has a policy of promoting secular values at the expense of religion. Germany has outlawed whole categories of expression, especially those that are reminiscent of the Nazis.

[wtmusic]

68. Good point.

If they are unable to prevent them from exploiting by any other means then perhaps this is a last resort type of "racketeering" law along the lines of what Bobby Kennedy used to cripple the Mob in the early 60's.

[Warpy]

31. Exactly, it's a business

and anyone who threatens the profits (not the prophets!) is utterly destroyed by their team of legal vultures.

[Karenina]

73. Let me just say

that Germany smelled the recognizable stench YEARS AGO. The RH crowd has been targeting business segments, such as Language, Tutoring u.s.w. and the Germans have come to the conclusion that it is NOT a good thing. I, for one, respect their sensibilities and sensitivities even though agreeing with Schauble on this issue is much the same as some of you finding sanity in Pat Buchanan's words from time to time.

[Warpy]

89. Right, the stopped clock syndrome

Buchanan and even La Rouche are right twice a day. The rest of the time they are dead wrong. Most of us understand that.

I'm always pleasantly surprised when some right wing nutter is right on any subject at all, but I never expect it to become a trend.

[knight_of_the_star]

110. I think its also the possible shades of Nazism

Not that their doctrines resemble it but the practices and actions of the Church of Scientology certainly are not far removed from cults and are pretty close to fascist political parties, and Germany goes after ANYTHING that could bring that monster back from the dead with a vengeance.

[defendandprotect]

145. Agree, totally --- in fact, it's their moral duty to do just that ===

[LeftyMom]

10. Because it only became a "religion" to avoid legal entanglements

regarding taxes and providing psychological advice without suitable training.

[eppur_se_muova]

18. According to people in SF (Hubbard started out as an SF author), ...

Hubbard once tried to make a bet with John W. Campbell, then editor of "Astounding", that he could create a religion from nothing, and get people to believe it.

[Quantess]

32. Science Fiction, that is.

Not San Francisco, in case anyone wondered.

[ideagarden]

33. I thought it was Aurthur C Clark

The daughter turn it into a system I think. She gained rights some time in the late 80's I think.

[Book Lover]

36. I heard he made that bet with Harlan Ellison

FWIW.

[dancing kali]

66. I heard the bet was with Anton LaVey

I used to tell the street hawkers for the Scientology test that I don't need to spend $500 to have someone tell me it was OK to be an asshole. I already know that, thank you very much.
Also, why would I want to have anything to do with an organization that:
1. - was founded by a man who wrote some of the worst science fiction I've ever read.
2. - and was founded on a bet with LaVey. Supposedly it went something like he bet that he could get rich by making his own religion. (For those who don't know... Anton LaVey was the founder of the Church of Satan.)

The little Scientology acolytes would go scurrying away.

[UnyieldingHierophant]

132. True...and he won the bet

[eppur_se_muova]

101. Wish I could remember where I read it, it wasn't on the Web so can't google it ...

it was in something called a "book", which was composed of many layers of a substance known as "paper", covered with marks in "ink", which could be interpreted by those trained in such arcane skills.

IIRC it was one of those collections with biographical commentary, like "The Early Asimov", "The Early Pohl", etc. It centered around John W. Campbell, who became an enthusiast for purported parapsychological, or "psi", phenomena. At one point Campbell said something like "so many people wouldn't believe in it if there weren't something to it", and that got them off on the topic of religion. Hubbard proposed his famous bet after that. Anyway, that's the best I can recall the story. According to the wiki entry on Scientology, Hubbard was already interested in the idea well before that, and his first effort, "Dianetics", wasn't really considered a religion by him or anyone else.

[harmonicon]

25. It's a pyramid scheme

they pray on very vulnerable people. All of the money flows to the top, just like in any pyramid scheme, and the poor schmucks at the bottom having nothing to show for it.

[PassingFair]

44. And that differs from other religions, how?

[harmonicon]

65. Others have posted it here already, but...

... it's different from other religions because scientologists HAVE to pay money to be in the church, and people climb within the church based on how much money they pay in. My mom volunteers at a Christian sunday school, but has never given the church any money - my parents could never afford to for one. Also, the pastor of her church is a normal middle class guy. I went to school with his kids. Not that I would, but should I want to, I think I could walk into any Christian church nearly the world over and not be asked to pay for anything. Scientology makes people pay money for "treatments". I've never heard of a Catholic having to pay to go to confession. Don't get me wrong - I think all religions are bad to some extent, but Scientology takes the cake. Like Mormonism, it was set up by a con-artist to make money.

[PassingFair]

82. Well...

I've known two "happy" Scientologists in my time.
And I've known LOTS of people that have paid a
LOT of money for their children to be "educated"
in religious schools.

Yes, PAID.

[reorg]

87. well, in Germany, church taxes are collected by the local tax office

IOW, the state collects church taxes - for the two official churches, the catholic and the protestant church. If you are a member, the church tax will be automatically deducted by your employer, before you get your pay. So, in Germany, the system already in place for the dominant denominations is as much or even more coercive than what happens to scientologists.

[Karenina]

94. It's VOLUNTARY.

Anyone is free to opt-out.

[reorg]

96. well, I can tell you that much:

I was never asked if I wanted to opt out. You are born into the church, indoctrinated by your parents and the school - you can opt out, but it takes some effort to do it. In small rural communities where religious ties are still strong you may even get ostracized. I guess it's not much different with these scientologists, people have left them, you know.

[defendandprotect]

147. Look, there have to be consumer protections --- ever buy a car?

Well, this particular religious scheme takes a lot of $ from "believers" ---
and you don't have all of the information at any time ---
it's compartmentalized ---

[Joe Bacon]

95. Je$u$ wiped out my grandmother's life savings.

My grandmother worked hard to save and invest all her life. She carefully followed the stock market like a hawk and she was able to make a nice nest egg for herself. Then, my idiot aunt got a hold of Grandma's money and gave every last penny to liars like Robertson, Falwell, and especially Paul and Jan Crouch. When grandma died, my father asked about what grandma willed him. My aunt told him that she gave it to Je$u$. Every last penny because the Crouches kept after her for it. Dad got stiffed out of $250,000. Now, I wonder how much of the money my aunt stole from my dad in the name of Je$u$ wound up as a payoff to Paul Crouch's gay black lover?

There is NO difference between $¢ientology and ¢hri$tianity. Or any other religion. They are all bullshit.

[knight_of_the_star]

109. Depends on which religions you talk about

None of the Neo-Pagan religions work like that, getting Pagans to cough up money for anything is almost as hard as pulling teeth without painkillers.

[Marrah_G]

131. Hahahahah SOOOOOO true!

Except for things within a coven. I always found people willing to share cost or donate things if needed, usually without being asked.

I guess it's an automatic revulsion from what we see in the televangelists and the big churches and our determination to get as far away from that sort of corrupting influence as possible.

[knight_of_the_star]

137. Not a bad thing really

Just gets kind of irksome when running a networking group and trying to pull together the means for a big solstice celebration indoors somewhere (since everyone thinks its too cold out in SoCal :eyes:) but no one has the money to donate for it. I've found people have no problem donating food, gifts, items for use in ritual, but MONEY to buy any of the above it would be like you're suggesting that we're devil worshipers or something.

[Marrah_G]

139. I can completely relate

Okay... you do ritual INSIDE in so cal? I'm remembering Yule, outside, snow on the ground, Blackstone, MA...my HP insisting on being barefoot. I, fortunately, was not so foolish and spent the rest of the night giggling at the foolish man. I said "well no wonder the Oak King kicked your ass, you can't feel your damn feet!"

[knight_of_the_star]

156. Tell me about it

Me and some others wanted to do it OUTSIDE cause well it is SoCal and even in the winter doesn't dip below 55 with windchill but a couple people flipped out, "Oh my Goddess it will be too cold for the children blah blah blah". I bet they couldn't have handled the nighttime blot we did at Big Sur in April come to think of it lol.

[Sin]

53. heres some of the problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPol_m8wm8Y

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7922220836261464038&q=Scientology+and+Me&total=246&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=8

This will give ya an idea about that wacky cult.

[Occulus]

90. It's not a faith.

It's not a religion. It's a fucking racket.

I have no respect for Scientology. I don't consider it a religion. Its adherents deserve none of the protections religions get.

It's just not a religion. Them saying it is doesn't make it so.

[reorg]

93. yes, but this is not the question

in Germany, rather: is it legal for this organisation to be monitored by the interior intelligence agency (Bundesverfassungsschutz), and has their monitoring over 10 years since 1997 resulted in findings that would enable the state to outlaw Scientology? The answer to both questions will most likely be NO. You cannot outlaw stupidity and greed, unfortunately.

[Odin2005]

118. All religions are rackets.

People who put money in the collection plate on Sunday are in the same category as people who buy snake oil from a con man, they are SUCKERS.

[JVS]

124. IIRC a lot of the definition between cult and religion according to the Germans I spoke with...

has to do with money. The fact that in scientology in order to achieve salvation (or "clear" if you will) one must spend money for treatments seems to have put scientology on the wrong side of the divide.

[Marrah_G]

130. It's a con that bilks people out of large amounts of money

[defendandprotect]

146. In fact, Dems here are starting to investigate the huge churches with no church --- !!!

No church community -- and they're bringing in hordes of $$$ ----

They're cults ---

Again -- not that organized patriarchal religions aren't, in general, often cultlike ---


And most of those began with "introducing the cross with the sword" . . . !!!

Lots of violence to get their way ---

[Turbineguy]

4. Gosh, it sounds like Germany

needs to take that Free Personality Test.

[Critters2]

22. !

:spray:

[Mountainman]

5. "to be in conflict with the principles of the nation's constitution"

That could apply to any number of religions in this country.

[wtmusic]

19. sounds pretty arbitrary to me too

Those Germans aren't a very tolerant bunch are they?

[Prophet 451]

37. Actually, they are usually

Which is why this decision is so odd.

[benld74]

7. Is this AFTER Cruises movie has been filmed there?

[sasquatch]

8. They do not want him there filming it in the first place

[salib]

9. Time for the popcorn

[Quantess]

12. Scientology is a cult, not a religion.

Scientology brainwashes and victimizes people out of their money.

[T Wolf]

17. And that is different from the religions here how? nt

[wtmusic]

20. Ding! goes the bell. nt

[Quantess]

26. Most churches that I am aware of do not demand money or fees, although it's certainly encouraged.

Scientlogy followers pay for a service (removing bits of dead aliens from their soul) that they have been convinced into believing that they need, through coercive maniipulation. This is different than tithing money, or making a donation to the church. I don't know of any religion that requires payment, regardless of the devotee's ability to pay. That's just one reason why I
say that Scientology is a cult, not a religion.

Arnie Lerma is an ex-Scientologist who has a website devoted to exposing Scientlogy.
http://www.lermanet.com/LRonHubbard2.htm

Edit: and BTW, I'm not religious myself, and I have never belonged to any religion.

[redqueen]

51. Thank you! That "all religions are cults" BS is *so* tiresome. (nt)

[Forkboy]

56. Not really, some are just more accepted than others.

[redqueen]

57. It's aboslute BS.

Cults are very well-defined. They involve cutting off / shunning / avoiding any non-aherents... giving *large* amounts of cash, not a regular reasonable tithing, etc.

To act as if all religions are cults is to demonstrate that one does not know what a cult really is.

[Forkboy]

59. If you say so.

[redqueen]

61. No, not me. Experts in cults and deprogramming people. (nt)

[bagrman]

60. One just bleeds you out quicker then the other.

[redqueen]

62. Take it up with those who are experts in the field.

Maybe you can get them to come around to seeing it your way.

[wtmusic]

67. Not well-defined--a very thin line.

There are cults which are religions (Jim Jones/Peoples Temple).

All religions avoid challenges to their doctrine, and what church would decline a large amount of cash?

[Mojorabbit]

74. This is true

and as I practice a religion that is not mainstream I am a bit nervous when any religion is attacked by the state.

[knight_of_the_star]

111. Normally I would be with you on this, but

The Church of Scientology in and of itself is very cultish in their behavior. They've taken it so far as to trademark the word Scientology and routinely sue groups that follow the precepts and practice the faith that are not of the church, not to mention brutal campaigns against any who dare criticize the Church of Scientology. Banning Scientology in this case is one in the same as banning the Church because of how they do their trademarking and all that.

[Quantess]

78. Of course no religion would turn down money.

Nobody has suggested that religions, churches don't like money. Of course religions love money, silly.
But Scientology demands exact payments from everyone, in exchange for advancing up the Scientology ladder. Payments for sessions. You don't get your session until you pay. Can you think of any reigions who make their income in that form?

Scientology requires payment from its members, especially once the followers are hooked into believing that they need Scientology to help them. It may start out for free or nominal fees, but it gets very expensive, and many Scientologists have gone broke trying to get to "clear". Clear means that all the bits of dead aliens have been removed from their soul.

The more I read about Scientology, the clearer it stands out as a true cult.

[wtmusic]

100. Religions are a little more subtle

but that's the only difference. When that plate gets passed, who would have the nerve to not contribute?

There is a very clear implication in most churches that if you don't worship, you will go to Hell. And it's not just any worship, it's worshipping en masse -- there's never any suggestion that you can do it alone at home, which seems to me the only way worship would make any sense at all.

Burning in hell while being poked by demons with pitchforks is every bit as silly as removing bits of dead aliens from your soul. It's all garbage.

[KittyWampus]

103. Your entire freaking post is bullshit. The bigotry here is disgusting.

"When that plate gets passed, who would have the nerve to not contribute"

Most congregations tithe by sending in envelopes, IF they choose to. Passing the plate and putting the money into is purely voluntary.
And Churches have to pay bills. Do you have any fucking idea what churches do for their communities?

Foodbanks, daycare, rides to the doctors for elderly, visits for shut-ins.

"There is a very clear implication in most churches that if you don't worship, you will go to Hell."

Hell was never mentioned in any church I've ever attended.

"there's never any suggestion that you can do it alone at home"

I've heard various pastor speak to the power of prayer and the import of worship in ones daily life many times.

You obviously are ignorant about what goes on in churches.

[wtmusic]

106. Apparently at the churches you attended they did not read from the Bible.

"There are over 162 references in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) which warn of Hell. Over 70 of these references are attributed to Jesus. According to the gospels, Jesus spoke more on Hell than on any other subject. However, many skeptics and religious liberals suggest that the frequency with which Hell appears in individual gospels may reflect the beliefs of their authors or of the authors' faith group more than that of Jesus.

The word Hell in the Christian Scriptures appears frequently in: Mark (3 occurrences), Matthew (12), Luke (3), Acts (2), Revelation (4)."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hel_bibl.htm

Of course churches have to pay bills, but in my community all of those services (foodbanks, daycare, etc) are available without the church acting as a middleman. As much as churches would like to think they have a lock on morality, that's not the case. The reason I believe people attend church is because they're afraid of what will happen to them after they die. That's not bigotry; that's my opinion. And as neither of us knows for sure (what happens after we die), mine is equally as valid as yours.

[Odin2005]

120. A Religion is simply a cult legitimized by society

Many atheists are shunned by their communities if they are from a small community dominated by evangelicals. And people who give religions ANY money are suckers, just like people who buy snake oil.

[JVS]

122. There is a simpler argument. Germany has a legal definition of "cult"

Scientology qualifies.

[reorg]

136. You seem to have no idea what you are talking about

There is no "legal definition" of cult (Sekte) in Germany. Even if there was, it wouldn't do any good. Scientology have the legal status of a "Verein" (association) - and it is totally irrelevant if they see themselves or are seen by the state as a "Sekte" (cult/religious association).

Under investigation is simply whether or not paragraph 9 in article 9 of the German Grundgesetz (constitution) applies:

"Vereinigungen, deren Zwecke oder deren Tätigkeit den Strafgesetzen zuwiderlaufen oder die sich gegen die verfassungsmäßige Ordnung oder gegen den Gedanken der Völkerverständigung richten, sind verboten".

"Associations whose goals or activities run counter to law, or do not conform with the constitutional order or the idea of intercultural understanding, are prohibited." (My bad translation.)

[Odin2005]

119. Uh, yes, those little things called "facts are so tiresome, aren't they?

That's why so many people adhere to a cul.. er... religion, they'd rather be deluded by fantasy rather then be burdened by those pesky facts.

[defendandprotect]

148. Organized patriarchal religions all began as "cults" -- using violene to force people to be members

Later, it was Crusades ---

but it is also brainwashing --- violent, vengeful gods --- hell!

Fear driven motives to scare the believers into staying and not questioning ---

And religious dictates --- birth control, for one.

[DutchLiberal]

39. It starts with a "C" and ends with "hristianity"...

[Cha]

102. religion/ cult

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/1999/02/99/e-cyclopedia/392396.stm

[Buns_of_Fire]

128. Sounds like the rebubbalican party, doesn't it?

[PATRICK]

13. They put it vaguely and

politely. At least in this news release, that what concerns them is cult brainwashing and enslavement of will and rights. That could be compared to any other cult movement in Germany- if such exist. The surveillance and head on confrontation against the Church and its societal influence seem to indicate much deeper concerns. It sounds in fact like they are using a very understandable "Constitutional" plank that seeks to ban politically minded cults for national security reasons, or because the outreach of Scientology into the upper strata of society has stepped on some heavy toes.

It might be interesting to probe other nations' attitudes about this cult. There is a huge core of manipulative con in that "religion" starting from the founder, a massively weird fraud who probably sheltered his manipulations under the protections that America gives religion under any name.

What is typical is that, despite a carefully crafted Constitution that make sit easier for status quo parties to prevent a descent into another RW maelstrom, the German centrist parties are going through familiar heavy-handed, ponderous patterns of suppression with weak political explanation. So long as there is no chaos and determined nipping of things in the bud, they seem satisfied with their home remedies. As usual the news is equally content to skin the surface and give the impression they are picking on a religion.

[JerseygirlCT]

14. Obviously they operate under a different constitution

But this is troubling, even though I think Scientology is silly, myself.

I think if there are questions about *behavior* of people in the church -- people doing things against their constitution -- it makes more sense to focus on that, instead of on an entire organization.

I guess I'm just an American, but beliefs ought to be let alone. Actions are another story.

[western mass]

77. The "organization" itself is the source of this behavior.

Intimidation, slander, and other attacks on its "enemies" (which include anybody who criticizes the Church) are institutionalized within the organization. This is well-documented.

It's like arguing that we should leave the Mafia alone and concentrate on the behavior of individual thugs.

Comparing Scientology to your local (insert faith) is like comparing the Mafia to the Rotary Club. Sure you can draw parallels between the mob protection racket and sending cute kids door to door to sell candy bars for charity, but there's something wrong if you don't see that there's a difference.

[edbermac]

15. Wow, Tom Cruise is gonna go APESHIT over this!

:hide:



And Kirstie Alley is going to eat federal Interior Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble...with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.

[Kokonoe]

41. Isn't all this about some German movie involving Tom Cruise

[mainegreen]

16. Well, they are dangerous nutters, much like neo-nazis.

They have a low tolerance for that stuff in Germany. Especially after Germany's past .... problems.

[fascisthunter]

28. Those Type of "Nutters" are Not Just Indigenous to Germany

They exist everywhere.

[mainegreen]

71. Indeed.

It's just that Germany has a lower tolerance now for these sorts of things than many countries since WWII.

[fascisthunter]

97. That's True

And understandably so.

[knight_of_the_star]

112. With good reason

Most countries allow pseudo-fascist and cult movements to work until they become a clear and present danger and sometimes serious threat. In Germany post WWII its much more of a "if there's smoke there's fire" approach.

[sss1977]

23. From the perspective of an atheist, that's a bad idea.

If they feel it threatens their democracy, they should work on educating the people about it, instead of banning it.

[CanSocDem]

83. That's right...

It seems time would be better spent exploring the nature of ALL belief systems.

After that, I guess pretty much anything would be acceptable.


.

[sarcasmo]

24. Please ban Amway too.

[fascisthunter]

27. I Don't Agree with Banning Scientology However...

"security officials said Friday they consider the goals of Church of Scientology to be in conflict with the principles of the nation's constitution...."

How does it conflict with their constitution? I really would like to know because their actions may be justified if they can prove this to be true.

[reorg]

88. here is the report:

the link for the pdf file:

http://www.bmi.bund.de/Internet/Content/Common/Anlagen/Broschueren/2006/Verfassungsschutzbericht__2005__en,templateId=raw,property=publicationFile.pdf/Verfassungsschutzbericht_2005_en.pdf

the part about Scientology is on pp 289-300.

They see the cult as an organization which promotes anti-democratic views, a "two-class" society with no general elections and other totalitarian characteristics.

Personally, I see little difference between this cult and - not other "religions", but - the management of large corporations. Could be just me, though.

[mitchum]

29. Deutschland Uber Crazyass Grifters

good for them

[CGowen]

30. Why not ban Bilderberg? That would include Schaeuble .

http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=23512

[DrDebug]

114. Because Bilderberg was founded by a German...

"Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands, head of the secret, one world Bilderberger movement, confers with President Nixon. A former Nazi SS storm trooper ("We had a lot of fun"), Bernhard now works with the Rothschilds and Rockefellers to promote a World Super State of the elite."

[Chulanowa]

34. Scientology violates the rights of its "followers" and refuses to allow them to depart

Those who do are targeted, hounded, and destroyed. This is a core of the organization, not the action of a "rogue element" within Scientology. I would expect Germany to treat Scientology much like organized crime.

[seriousstan]

125. Sound like Islam. Are they considered apostates?

[unc70]

35. They were responsible for the first net "spam"

Back in the old low-bandwith days, they tried to silence their critics by clogging the Usenet group alt.religion.scientology with so many spam-like postings that if would be unusable (essentially, a distributed denial of service -DDOS- attack). Those of us running networks who had to deal with them really came to despise them way back then. They eventually formed their own ISP providers so their accounts wouldn't be suspended for spamming. Some of their leadership were also convicted of murder, if I remember correctly (Spain?).

[DutchLiberal]

38. A real democracy would allow even movements that want to undermine it.

Otherwise, it wouldn't be a democracy. (Playing devil's advocate here.)

Anyway, if you ban Scientology, shouldn't you also ban other sects, like Christianity?

[JMDEM]

52. You have no idea how truly evil this group is. NT

[DutchLiberal]

85. And you know me... how?

Oh, the arrogance and presumptuousness here at DU... Sometimes, it's like being on a freeper forum.

[denem]

84. Movements like National Socialism for example?

Been there, done that. How about a few more anti-Muslim Storm Troopers in the Netherlands? It's a sad irony that Germans have less racial tensions than you do. Maybe it's their constitution?

[DutchLiberal]

86. Purely theoretically speaking: yes.

LOL, what has their and our constitution to do with racial tensions? You're talking BS.

[Selatius]

98. You're confusing democracy with civil liberties.

A democracy with a congress of several hundred people can just as easily strip the rights of an individual as a dictator. A raw democracy would move despite individual freedoms. If a democracy can grant rights and privileges to people, it can just as easily suspend them by majority decree or a super majority decree.

[JVS]

123. Tried that. Didn't work.

Oh well, I guess the FRG will just have to be satisfied with quasi-democracy

[L1A1Rocker]

40. I hope

that when the hammer falls in Germany they seize all the internal literature as possible. Then MAKE IT PUBLIC!!! I'd really love to have a legit source expose the true beliefs of this nuts.

[krabigirl]

42. Isn't it the same in France? It's considered a cult, so it's banned.

[ShaneGR]

43. What are the goals of the Church of Scientology?

Anything to do with race? Really I have no idea.

[flyingfysh]

46. here are the goals of Scientology

They want to extract as much money as possible from you, including everything you can get by borrowing or mortgaging. Their "courses" involve hypnotic techniques, and are very dangerous.

For lots more details, see www.xenu.net.

[ShaneGR]

48. Actually, I just found a link, and its disturbing

Makes me understand the German Government's Position more

http://www.spaink.net/cos/mpoulter/scum/exterm.html

(snip)
The following are "scriptures" of Scientology, which has the greatest tax exemption of any religion in the United States

From "Dianetics", Book One of Scientology (book 3, chapter 10):

"Perhaps at some distant date only the unaberrrated person will be granted civil rights before law. Perhaps the goal will be reached at some future time when only the unaberrated person can attain to and benefit from citizenship. These are desirable goals..."

From "Intro to Scientology Ethics", page 14:

If you were to weed out of your past by proper search and discovery those anti-social persons you have known and if you disconnected, you might experience great relief.
Similarly, if society were to recognise this personality as a sick being, as they now isolate people with smallpox, both social and economic recoveries could occur.
Things are not going to get much better so long as 20% of the population is permitted to dominate and injure the lives and enterprise of the remaining 80%.

From HCOPL 27 Sept 1966:

"In the fields of government, police activities and mental health, to name a few, we see that it is important to be able to detect and isolate this personality type so as to protect society and individuals from the destructive consequences upon letting such have free rein to injure others. As they only comprise 20% of the population and as only 2.5% of this 20% are truly dangerous, we see that with a very small amount of effort we could considerably better the state of society.

From "Science of Survival", the #2 book in Scientology, part I page 131:

"...any person from 2.0 down on the tone scale should not have, in any thinking society, any civil rights of any kind"

On establishing concentration camps

"It is not necessary to produce a world of clears in order to to have a reasonable and worthwhile social order; it is only necessary to delete those individuals who range from 2.0 down, either by processing them enough to get their tone level above the 2.0 line...or simply quarantining them from the society."


-- L. Ron Hubbard, "The Science of Survival", p. 157

On reducation or elimination of dissidents

"There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the tone scale, neither one of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the tone scale by un-enturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes. The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow."


-- L. Ron Hubbard, "The Science of Survival", p. 157

Hubbard's Final Solution

"The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the tone scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered."

[reorg]

91. hm, disturbing indeed

but what does "deletion" mean? Do they actually murder people? I'm not aware that they do.

[gauguin57]

49. Read the famous 1991 Time Magazine piece on "The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power"

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,972865,00.html

The reporter was harrassed horribly -- at his home -- by Cult of Scientology members while he was working on this piece.

The Cultists have got lots of blood on their hands ... people die when they become inconvenient.

This Time Magazine piece is what set me against the Cult forever.

[JMDEM]

55. Goals of Scientology?

Make you a complete zombie. Take all your money. Make the top 1% of the group rich beyond belief. And completely destroy you if you ever come out against the group.

They are enormously wealthy, and will hound any detractors into the ground. They will screw with your life -- sabotage everything in it. File simultaneous court cases in multiple juristictions, so you end up in contempt of court somewhere or the other. Hire PIs to investigate everything about you, then try to get you fired, divorced, run out of town. They will stage fake hit-and-run accidents, as they did to the Mayor of Clearwater. They will have you brought up on federal charges as they did with an early detractor -- Paulette Cooper. They stole letterhead from her apartment, then mailed bomb threats to the government on her letterhead. The only reason she got let off the hook was because an FBI raid in L.A. uncovered the plot. It also uncovered a myriad of blackmail schemes against members of the US government. Unfortunately, this whole search and seizure didn't do much else -- presumably becuase the FBI did not get ALL the blackmail info, and there's still quite a bit of leverage on our politicians.

[BadgerKid]

47. Here's why: Infringement of human rights

(in German):
http://www.welt.de/politik/article1439936/Innenminister_fordern_Verbot_von_Scientology.html

...human dignity, right to personal expression, moreover striving for a society without free will.

Quote:
Berlin sei „die lebenswichtige Adresse“ für Scientology, heißt es in einem internen Papier. „Um unsere planetarischen Rettungskampagnen in Anwendung zu bringen, müssen wir die obersten Ebenen der deutschen Regierung in Berlin erreichen“, heißt es in dem vom Verfassungsschutz zitierten Papier.

My rough translation:

Berlin is the vital destination for scientology, according to an internal document. "To execute our planetary mission of salvation, we must reach the upper levels of the German government", according to a document cited by the (Protection of the Constitution Office).



My Comments:
Wow, does Germany really have a federal office that protects their constitution? Anyhow, it sounds to me as if Germany knows how to spot an aspiring infiltration of government. They've been there, done that. I'll refrain from posting the obvious sarcastic comment about our own government.

[ShaneGR]

50. See my post #48

They advocate the elimination of a small percentage of the population for the "better good."

[reorg]

79. the German "Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution"

is actually the German intelligence agency responsible for "interior threats", their main concern was originally with Communists and Nazis, in the seventies their focus shifted to what they considered supporters of terrorist groups. Nowadays it is Neonazis, Islamists, and whoever may be suspected of committing politically or religiously motivated violent acts or other revolutionary or conspiratorial activities. They publish the "Annual Report of the Office for the Protection of the Constitution" and have a website (also in English):

http://www.verfassungsschutz.de/en/index_en.html

Most information gathered by this "Office for the Protection of the Constitution" can easily be found elsewhere, by journalists, for example. I personally doubt they ever did anything valuable.

When the last attempt was made to outlaw the largest Neonazi party in Germany, the NPD, it came to light during the trial that about 10 percent of the leading NPD members were agents of the "Office", which raised the question what the real purpose of this Neonazi party is. (Interestingly, the founder and first leader of this very party in the sixties, Adolf von Thadden, had been an informant for the British intelligence service MI6.) The Guardian's comment on this (in 2002):

"This has sparked debate about the extent to which counter-intelligence officers were sustaining the far right in their efforts to monitor it. Similar issues arise in Von Thadden's case. The question also arises of whether MI6 was seeking help from the neo-Nazi movement when far-left militancy was sweeping Europe after the uprising of May 1968 in Paris."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,773568,00.html


As to the current debate - which is actually not new - I have no sympathy for the so-called Scientologists, but attempts to outlaw seem over the top, IMO. There must be better ways to protect and inform people about the dangers of sectarian groups. But if such dangers are being trumped up and often talked about, they serve as a perfect pretext to maintain an "Office for the Protection of the Constitution" in times when the Communist "threat" and interior terrorim no longer exist, and when we cannot be exactly sure if the "Office" is a front for Neonazis or Neonazis are a front for the "Office" ...

[Occulus]

92. Scientology SHOULD BE outlawed

It isn't a religion. Period.

It's a racket. If I'm to believe some of what I read upthread- and I do, because I've heard about this sort of behavior my whole life- it should be disbanded completely.

It's a racket, not a religion. It deserves no protection, and special consideration only in the sense that it is, by name, specifically outlawed.

[reorg]

151. nonsense

If you are really concerned about what this organization does to people, join a group and make their misdeeds public, support the victims. If they act against the law, take legal action.

[Owl]

54. Good riddance!

[JMDEM]

58. I don't think we have to worry too much about the Scientologists reading this thread

They aren't allowed onto the internet, lest they read something bad about their own "religion".

[Greyskye]

63. Cite?

I hadn't heard that one before. In fact, I'd heard pretty much the opposite - that they were fairly militant at quashing on-line criticism. :shrug:

[flyingfysh]

70. most have to use a special filter provided by Scientology

The ones bashing criticism are the ones delegated to do it, the rest use a filter to keep them from seeing critical thoughts.

How do I know? I'm on it! Once someone got a copy, and produced a complete list of all the people and URLS then currently forbidden to Scientologists. Scientology has threatened to sue me twice.

[redqueen]

64. I wish all cults were banned, everywhere.

Using mind control techniques to manipulate people shouldn't be legal.

But then, that would make advertising illegal, so... :P

[jody]

72. Ban cults? Careful DU might fit "exclusive group sharing an esoteric, intellectual interests".

[Quantess]

141. except, DUers can't agree on anything except our disapproval of G.W. Bush.

Disapproval of W is widespread thoughout the nation, so it's not esoteric. Almost every other topic is debatable here.

[provis99]

69. wow. It didn't take long for the ethnic/racial slurs to break out here

Yes, the German government banned a criminal conspiracy. That must be proof all Germans are Nazi, aren't they?
Good thing America is the beacon of light in the world, so other countries don't have any negative stereotypes about us.

Glass houses, people?:sarcasm:

[western mass]

75. "U.S. State Department regularly criticizes Germany...

...in its annual Human Rights Report "

Couldn't finish the article, that line had me laughing too hard.

[davidinalameda]

76. not really seeing a problem with this

as much as I know about Scientology, it is a cult and I find it fairly reprehensible for cults to hide behind religious freedom

and any organization that funds movies like Battlefield Earth needs to be banned!

[bitchkitty]

80. GOOD n/t

[pokercat999]

81. Couldn't they say that of every "religion" and wouldn't

they be smart to do so?

[windoe]

99. Banning cults is progressive

because cults often use brainwashing techniques to make money, some program antisocial behavior. Period. This has NOTHING to do with freedom of religion. Kudos to Germany for this bold move to call attention to the destructive effects cults have become in this world.
Scientology is clearly in a class of its own, not a religion, invented by a sci fi writer, it's 'security' force has a nebulous record of suspicious deaths, and they are swindling people to give up all their money, going especially after the rich. They are criminal.

[Psephos]

104. Banning a religion, just like in the good old days!

I just love to see state power used this way. It always works out well.

I loathe Scientology. But I loathe authoritarian revocation of liberties even more. Which religion will be next?

The only speech that needs protection is speech we or the government don't like. The only assemblies that need protection are those we or the government don't like. The only religions that need protection are those we or the government don't like. See a pattern there?

Scientology should be prosecuted if it breaks laws - the same laws that apply to the rest of us. Hindu, Baptist, Zoroastrian, Atheist, Muslim, Cargo Cult....

[western mass]

107. The Tony Soprano defense.

"We're just a social club for Italian-American gentlemen."

As has been repeated over and over again, religious belief has nothing to do with the ban. It's the institutionalized criminal, thuggish behavior. Calling a scientology ban an attack on freedom of religion is like calling a ban on the mafia an attack on freedom of association.

[Psephos]

108. Then vigorously apply the laws that already exist against institutionalized thuggish behavior

There are plenty who think some fringe flavors of Islam institutionalize criminal, thuggish behavior, too. Shall we apply your argument in that case as well?

Jews have long experience with this kind of thinking, too - and from Germany, coincidentally enough. I'm sure there were sober voices making the same kind of argument in the 1930s that you just made.

Again, we either protect religious choice, or we don't. There's no need to protect choice if we limit others to only those "choices" we approve.

Meanwhile, we can prosecute illegal actions by Scientologists and Muslims and Catholic priests and everyone else to the full extent of the law when they transgress.

As I said before, I seriously think Scientology sucks.

[knight_of_the_star]

113. It isn't exactly banning the religion though

The Church of Scientology has a rock-solid grip on legal uses of the word Scientology. People who genuinely believe it is a religion BUT practice it outside of the Church's auspices if they call if Scientology are routinely hounded by the church, harassed, and sued to high heaven and back. Banning Scientology won't ban the belief system, just the Church that isn't much different from a vile hybrid of fascism and a religious cult.

[Psephos]

121. How can banning the religion not be banning the religion?

Sounds like soft-pedaling to me.

Why not take ownership of it, if you support it?

Your suggestion reminds me of Soviet-era Russians and East Germans holding secret masses in homes, fearful of the knock at the door. That's where banning religion leads. To the abuse of state police power.

Again, instead of banning their religion, prosecute Scientologists for breaking the law. Pass new laws if some of them are doing bad things that current law doesn't cover. Criticize them publicly. Proselytize your own religion. Do all the things permitted by a liberal, nonauthoritarian society built on concepts of individual freedom. Banning other people's religion is not one of those things.

[Marrah_G]

133. Because it isn't a religion.

It is a well thought up and enacted con game created by a sci-fi writer (and a bad one at that). It causes harm to those involved and fits the definition of a cult.

[Psephos]

134. It's recognized as a religion by the IRS

It meets the legal definition, and it easily meets the cultural definition.

Look, I hate these guys. But it's uncool in the extreme to weasel a position against religious freedom by "defining" them out of existence. Germany justified subhuman treatment of the Jews during the 30s by defining Jews as, well, subhuman. In our own time, similar arguments have been used regarding treating of "detainees" at Guantanamo. Simply redefine them as not being prisoners of war, and poof! no more Geneva Conventions.

This is going to bite Germany in the butt when the religion in question is no longer Scientology, but Islam. Germany has a big and growing religious problem with its Turkish guest workers already.

As I said in an earlier post, it's the religions (and the speech, and the political parties) that we DON'T like that actually need to be protected from majority tyranny. Smack 'em hard if they do something illegal, but otherwise, people must be free to choose for themselves which religion, if any, they will follow. EVEN IF it's a religion we don't respect.

Liberty is worth defending, even if it sometimes means we have to allow Nazis to march in Skokie and Pat Robertson to bloviate on cable. Go to the ACLU website to remind yourself why this is so important.

My opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

[closeupready]

138. What is that definition, though? And just because the IRS

says it's a religion, well that doesn't make it a religion.

[Psephos]

153. This is about government sanction against a religion, so the govt definition is quite relevant

Scientology is treated as a religion under German tax codes, too.

I never said an IRS (or other govt) description is definitive, but this decision will not turn on semantic slipperiness.

[reorg]

154. no, Scientology is NOT treated as a religion under German tax codes n/t

[kurth]

105. Too bad other countries aren't following their example

Scientologists are nothing but a bunch of thugs.

[jzodda]

115. Good-I hope they do the same here.

I happen to know a great deal about Scientology and can say without hesitation that its not a religion, and its very very destructive. I will just leave it at that. I hope they ban it here as well.

[Orsino]

116. A government too weak to prosecute the many abuses...

...of Scientology should not be trusted anywhere near the power to ban a religion.

Nor should any other. They are trading liberty for temporary (perceived) security.

[MetaTrope]

117. I once agreed to take the Scientology "test", but they wouldn't let me use their bathroom

So they missed their chance with me...

[Crayson]

126. Got enough religions to abolish already... dont need new ones!

Yay!
Ban 'em all !

[screennaame]

127. just let people believe what they want

i mean if i want to believe a giant flying spaghetti monster created the world. then thats what ill believe. if i wanted to pay to be cured for whatever i guess id pay then. people choose religions that fit their lifestyle best.

i just think no religion should be banned anywhere.
people have the right to believe there is an invisible man/creator/god/whatever who hides in the sky.

[Marrah_G]

129. It is not a religion it is a well planned con game....good for Germany

[truebrit71]

135. Good. F*cking weirdos....

..the whole bloody lot of 'em...

[ButterflyBlood]

140. Great move on Germany's part!

Scientology shouldn't be allowed to exist any more than the mafia should. Both are comparable criminal organizations.

[reorg]

142. This discussion is so pathetic and absurd it makes me cringe

1. If you let an organization flourish and grow in your country for FIFTY years, deal the fuck with it yourselves instead of hoping for foreign countries to do the job for you.

2. If you are only aware of this single news article with a false and MISLEADING HEADLINE do at least make sure you know what it says.

Liberals, Greens, Leftists do NOT support this so-called "move" to ban Scientology. It isn't even a move, really, they merely decided to collect further information in addition to what they have been doing for 10 YEARS without getting any results. That Scientology will be outlawed is highly unlikely.

Whether or not Scientology is a religion is totally immaterial, has no effect whatsoever in the attempt and procedure to outlaw them in Germany, since they are organized as an "association" and are not recognized or treated by any state authority as a religion.

They probably ARE a racket, a pyramid scheme, do not favor democratic principles in their organization and their views - like many other organizations and religious communities. This does not necessarily mean they are actively undermining fundamental principles of the German constitution or disrespectful of the law - which must be proven if this current "move" is supposed to be going anywhere.

These hysterical "moves" against tiny cults or whatever you want to label such organizations are a typical device for right-wing clowns to get attention. In Germany, you don't have to be "strong on defense", that's a non-issue here. You got to be strong in the field of "interior security". This latest headline was the result of a move from Bavaria (most extreme and long-lasting right-wing government in Germany) and Hamburg (ditto, in Hamburg even the liberals are conservatives). They hope to gain a few tenths of percentage points in the upcoming elections.

[Quantess]

143. "Liberals, Greens, Leftists do NOT support this so-called "move" to ban Scientology."

How did you come to this conclusion?

[reorg]

149. by reading the damn papers

See e.g. this Spiegel article for a more realistic overview than that in in the OP:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,522348,00.html

There have been statements by significant figures of the Greens, the Left Party, the SPD, the FDP that they are opposed to the move or consider it not useful.


It is a strange phenomenon that seems to occur more and more often around here: DU members supporting right-wing policies, initiatives and stances ... I wonder how this is possible.

[Quantess]

150. So, to clarify, you are saying that German liberals are against this?

Obviously it's the Germans' own business how they resolve this situation.

That American liberals would be against this, is another story, and I'm still not convinced that you are correct, if you are saying that liberals are somehow supportive of Scientology. Scientology preys on the vulnerable, as cults do.

Edit: Here is a choice snippet from the article:
"Scientology...which is considered a religion in the United States but a business in Germany..."
This speaks a lot about what is considered a business and what is a religion in two different countries.

[reorg]

152. against the useless attempt to make them illegal, yes

That doesn't mean we are "somehow supportive" of so-called Scientologists. Just don't make them bigger than they are by attributing to them the powers of the bogeyman.

What you all seem to be missing: the same people (Schäuble) who try and outlaw Scientology are the ones who use this and similar, equally useless activities as a pretext to spy on everyone of us. They just made a law that requires service providers to store all connection data for six months (so as to enable authorities to scrutinize them):

"This includes:
* Phone calls: Date, time, length and involved numbers of all phone calls (landline, mobile or VoIP)
* In case of mobile phones additionally the location of the phone at the time of the call, the IMSI code of the phone and SMS connection data
* Internet access: IP address, date, time and length of the connection, and the line which was used. (to be clear: not each individual ip connection. Only date and time of your connection to the internet and which ip you were using)
* E-mail: e-mail-addresses involved and the header of each e-mail

The content of the communications is not stored.

The bill had been heavily criticized. Privacy advocates had organized demonstrations agains the bill in all major German cities at the beginning of this week. In October there had already been a large domonstration with thousands of participants in Germany’s capital Berlin.

All opposition parties voted against the bill. Several members of the opposition and several hundred private protesters announced a constitutional complaint."

http://www.kreativrauschen.com/blog/2007/11/09/german-bundestag-decides-to-implement-data-retention/

[defendandprotect]

144. It's actually taking an entire NATION to rid itself of this cult --- !!! ????

. . . Since it got the IRS to give it religion status --- !!!

The "church" has waged quite some battles over the years against forces in America correctly
labeling it a "cult."

Not that most organized patriarchal religons aren't --- !!!

[Voltaire99]

155. Sure, but... Did Operating Thetons invade Iraq?

I agree that scientology is at best a nuisance, at worst a spiritual mouse trap for the gullible. I have no problem with it being driven to the far ends of the earth, and once there, kicked some more.

But I can't help noting it's Christians and Jews who've made an abattoir of Iraq. E-meters are one thing. When the west's majority faiths sanction slaughter, as is their perennial wont, why single out the small fry?