Gorbachev says U.S. is sowing world ‘disorder’

[sinkingfeeling]

Source: MSNBC.com

MOSCOW - Former Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev criticized the United States, and President Bush in particular, on Friday for sowing disorder across the world by seeking to build an empire.

“The Americans then gave birth to the idea of a new empire, world leadership by a single power, and what followed?” Gorbachev asked reporters at a news conference in Moscow.

“What has followed are unilateral actions, what has followed are wars, what has followed is ignoring the U.N. Security Council, ignoring international law and ignoring the will of the people, even the American people,” he said.

“I don’t think the current president of the United States and his administration will be able to change the situation as it is developing now — it is very dangerous,” he said.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19994563/

---

Interesting that Gorbachev can see that the USA (Bush) has made a 'massive strategic mistake', but 25% of our own citizens can't.

[xultar]

1. Master of the understatement....Thanks Gorbi!

[superkia]

44. Gorbi must have watched Aaron Russo's

America : Freedom to Fascism documentary. I wish all americans could see his documentary because it goes into what Gorbi is talking about. Also the tax scam but that is minor to what they are doing to the country, freedom is more than just money!

[atreides1]

2. That 25% are Fanatics

Who want to encourage the end times, or are racists who don't have a problem with the US military killing people of color, or are so caught up in their belief that the US is always right that they refuse to see reality.

Take your pick, or add any others you can think of.

[indepat]

8. And that is a very dangerous number of fanatics willing to jettison our constitutional

government for what junior has in store for the American people and this planet.

[kineneb]

9. or are so greedy that they don't care

part of the ueber-wealthy 1% who consider themselves part of a "different world", where we peons exist only to clean their toilets.

[Joe Bacon]

34. These insane Christians WANT Armageddon

What will they do if Israel is counternuked after Iran is bombed????

[Doctor_J]

43. Many are brainwashed

after the revolution, when we have restored honest media, the number will drop off to about 10%, which we can marginalize.

[liberal N proud]

3. I must agree with Gorby on this

Bu$h is doing just that sowing disorder. He is uniting the world against the US.

[emilyg]

16. I agree.

[bdamomma]

28. this regime must end now

we have a madman in office, this is a very dark time in our history. Just keep calling your Reps and Senators and tell them not to take vacation or if they do, bother the shit out of them when they are home.

[seemslikeadream]

4. to build an empire

“Nemesis: The Last Days of the American Republic.”


She's present in our country right now, just waiting to make her - to carry out her divine mission



http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/27/145...

CHALMERS JOHNSON: Nemesis was the ancient Greek goddess of revenge, the punisher of hubris and arrogance in human beings. You may recall she is the one that led Narcissus to the pond and showed him his reflection, and he dove in and drowned. I chose the title, because it seems to me that she's present in our country right now, just waiting to make her -- to carry out her divine mission.

By the subtitle, I really do mean it. This is not just hype to sell books -- “The Last Days of the American Republic.” I’m here concerned with a very real, concrete problem in political analysis, namely that the political system of the United States today, history tells us, is one of the most unstable combinations there is -- that is, domestic democracy and foreign empire -- that the choices are stark. A nation can be one or the other, a democracy or an imperialist, but it can't be both. If it sticks to imperialism, it will, like the old Roman Republic, on which so much of our system was modeled, like the old Roman Republic, it will lose its democracy to a domestic dictatorship.

I’ve spent some time in the book talking about an alternative, namely that of the British Empire after World War II, in which it made the decision, not perfectly executed by any manner of means, but nonetheless made the decision to give up its empire in order to keep its democracy. It became apparent to the British quite late in the game that they could keep the jewel in their crown, India, only at the expense of administrative massacres, of which they had carried them out often in India. In the wake of the war against Nazism, which had just ended, it became, I think, obvious to the British that in order to retain their empire, they would have to become a tyranny, and they, therefore, I believe, properly chose, admirably chose to give up their empire.

As I say, they didn't do it perfectly. There were tremendous atavistic fallbacks in the 1950s in the Anglo, French, Israeli attack on Egypt; in the repression of the Kikuyu -- savage repression, really -- in Kenya; and then, of course, the most obvious and weird atavism of them all, Tony Blair and his enthusiasm for renewed British imperialism in Iraq. But nonetheless, it seems to me that the history of Britain is clear that it gave up its empire in order to remain a democracy. I believe this is something we should be discussing very hard in the United States.

......



Over the ashes of blood marched the civilized soldiers,

Over the ruins of the french fortress of a failure

Over the silent screams of the dead and the dying

Saying please be reassured, we seek no wider war.



The treaties were signed, the country was split into sections

But growing numbers of prisons were built for protection

Rapidly filling with people who called for elections

But please be reassured, we seek no wider war.



Ngo dinh diem was the puppet who danced for the power

The hero of hate who gambled on hell for his hour

Father of his country was stamped on the medals we showered

But please be reassured, we seek no wider war.



Machine gun bullets became the bloody baptizers

And the falcon copters dont care if someones the wiser

But the boy in the swamp didnt know he was killed by advisers

So please be reassured, we seek no wider war.



And fires were spitting at forests in defoliation

While the people were pressed into camps not called concentration

And the greater the victory the greater the shame of the nation

But please be reassured, we seek no wider war.



While we were watching the prisoners were tested by torture

And vicious and violent gasses maintained the order

As the finest washington minds found slogans for slaughter

But please be reassured, we seek no wider war.



Then over the border came the bay of pigs planes of persuasion

All remaining honor went up in flames of invasion

But the shattered schools never learned that its not escalation

But please be reassured, we seek no wider war.



Were teaching freedom for which they are yearning

While were dragging them down to the path of never returning

But, well condescend to talk while the cities are burning

But please be reassured, we seek no wider war.



And the evil is done in hopes that evil surrenders

But the deeds of the devil are burned too deep in the embers

And a world of hunger in vengeance will always remember

So please be reassured, we seek no wider war,

We seek no wider war.

phil ochs


The first victim of the Roman Empire was the Roman Republic.

[yava]

48. seemslikeadream, that was really sad and beautiful

You are a gifted poet and a very fine person. I envy you. What do you do for a living? Arts? Poetry? I doubt its the stock market :) though you never know.
Any way, thanks for a breath of fresh air and a reminder that life without love is boring and a waste.

[frogcycle]

5. ah how the times have changed

from Khrushchev pounding his shoe at the UN and a standoff over missiles in Cuba, where the US's restrained but firm response prevailed and the "madmen in the Kremlin" backed down, to hearing the voice of reason from a former Soviet leader condemning the US administration and its president for arrogance and aggression.

And agreeing with him.

[iconoclastic cat]

6. The US isn't here to create disorder.

The US is here to *preserve* disorder.

[19jet54]

7. Duck test

Walks, quacks & looks like a duck? Must be a duck!

I guess Gorbachev knows what a duck is?

[90-percent]

10. Gorby

Gorby as a World Leader is heads and shoulders above the Treacherous Cretin we currently have to endure for another year.

Gorby was courageous and put his ass on the line for THE GOOD OF HIS PEOPLE AND THE WORLD. Now THAT'S GREATNESS!

Hopefully America can one day find new Statesmen to undo the damage this Bush dolt has wrought upon his own country and the world!

-85% Jimmy

[Hydra]

11. Ironies abound these days

This reminds me of a few weeks ago when Pat Buchanan was speaking against *, and I swear the words coming out of his mouth sounded...sane. I couldn't believe it.

What most people don't get about the 25-30% is that they HATE constitutional democracies, whether it's because they're benefiting from the current system or because they want draconian laws in place to make their lives more predictable and "safer." It's unlikely that these people will ever join us, because they don't value the same things we do.

Luckily, these people are and always be in the minority. I'ts our job to speak up and call them on their BS.

[Maribelle]

13. Which head did that come from?

Not bad there, Hydra.

[Hydra]

14. haha

Good one!

I think it was the "disgusted with the vocal minority" head. :evilgrin:

[harun]

26. Great post. That group will never come around

We haven't been in a constitutional democracy for sometime. The current system has been willfully bent to a corporate representative republic. Bush promised to go as far right as the current system will allow and some now are seeing the bending going beyond the legal limits. I think it is WAY outside of reasonably defined legal limits. Takes a lot of law twisting, and spinning to make the current system fit into what the laws actually are.

[ananda]

12. I always kinda liked Gorby!

:-))

[gordianot]

15. Fascinating these kind of statements are continual world wide but do not get press here.

Makes you wonder why corporate media picked this up?

[aquart]

17. Ain't gonna disagree.

[rabidchickens]

18. Gorbachev is a fool though

He's right on this point but he DESTROYED his own Soviet Union instead of REFORMING it, economic reforms shouldve been made, corruption and the buerarchacy shouldve been targeted, more political freedom shouldve been given, in that order, he was a weak, ineffective leader that saw a nation crumble before him, and then he pretended like that was what he meant to happen.

[aquart]

20. Well, a funny thing happens when you give a little freedom...

People grab for more right away. They don't wait. Check out the reforms that preceded both the French and Russian revolutions.

He did pretty well compared to those.

[David__77]

40. Is Russia "free" today?

Or is Putin the modern Bonaparte? Yeltsin as Robespierre?

[rabidchickens]

47. Dont give Putin that much credit

Napeleon was an administrative genius and a military genius at least :P

and Robbespierre was an intellectual (radical one of course though), Yestlin was a drunk (who did some very brave things in his lifetime though)

[ngant17]

36. Gorbachev and the USSR

I think Mikhail Gorbachev often gets a bad rap, and I think it is unfair to blame him for the collapse of the Soviet Union. He put ideas into place which brought about the collapse, but I don't think he had any plan to do that. I mean, the USSR needed "glasnost" and "perestroika" as much then as we in the USA need it today. We need openness in our government, not secrecy. We need to fundamentally restructure our economy based on peace and not on war. That was his agenda, and unfortunately it put forces into motion which caused an internal collapse of the Soviet Union.

And if we implement those same kinds of radical new ideas, which result in the internal collapse of our government, I can only say, "bring it on".

[yava]

49. sold or cheated elections in Russia?

Sorry I meant in the USA. Two elections in a row taken out of people's will by cheaters. Then elected officials listening more to the big lobbies than their people.
How do we compare with Russia: they have less money?

[TheLastMohican]

52. Be careful what you wish for

The Gorbachev's "perestroika" and "glasnost" cost Russia about 10 mln. of premature deaths, the demographic loss comparable with WWII.

Gorbachev surely knows what a "disorder" is, because he is himself a "walking disorder". Russians spit when someone mentions Gorbachev in their presence and for a good reason.

[Crunchy Frog]

50. It wasn't reformable.

Any attempt to reform it was bound to bring about its collapse. Gorby's courage lay in his willingness to recognize that fact, and not to try to stop the process that was a natural consequence of loosening up the totalitarian controls on that society.

[ngant17]

51. I think Gorbachev is still a socialist

at heart and he believes in things like equality, fraternity and liberty.

And these aren't really revolutionary ideas, it all seems like a normal way to live IMHO.

Maybe he is more like a Green Marxist these days.

[donkeyotay]

19. "Kissinger's Secret Meeting With Putin" was the title of an article

on Information Clearing House, July 18, 2007.

Why is this unelected man still president? He's off to Moscow to do bidness with Putin, taking George Schultz, Robert Rubin, Thomas Graham, Sam Numm and David O'Reilly (Chevron).

Shortly thereafter, I see Gazprom in the bidness news because they can't get a bond deal done. The next day (?) a Gazprom gas line blows up. There's a whole lot going on. Somebody's fighting with somebody over Russia's resources, and they don't give a damn about world peace.

Mike Whitney's ICH article is here:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18036.htm

[David__77]

21. Someone who destroyed his own country shouldn't be giving advice.

Russia still has lower living standards than when he took over in 1985. It's taking decades to recover from his program that brought disorder to a whole new level. He panders to foreign opinion because almost everyone in Russia despises him.

[SpikeTss]

29. From what I gathered

this was actually the work of the alcoholic Jelzin, who was assisted by certain
foreign leaders to disempower Gorbachev. Putin was the one who allowed foreign
neoliberals to destroy all Soviet social systems and bury the existing
Russian economy. From the point of view of many Russians today it is Jelzin who
is to blame for Russia's problems today.

[LeftishBrit]

37. That's pretty much how I see it too

Gorbachev was potentially one of the best things to happen to Russia. Unfortunately, Western leaders (especially Reagan) were so impatient for an end to communism on their terms that they rushed things, rather than allowing a more gradual period of reform that would have been much more effective. And of course the other Russian leaders were far less constructive, especially drunken idiot Yeltsin and creepy tough-guy Putin.

Gorby is absolutely right about Bush, of course.

[go west young man]

35. I would have to seriously disagree with your post.

having been to Russia 4 times and having a Russian wife who speaks 5 languages I can say without a doubt that Russian's are better educated and more financially well off than in 1985. In the city of Voronezh where her family lives the population is around 1 million people. Just walking down the street on my last trip I saw 5 Lexus SUV's in one area. People there have money. The GDP of Russia is one of the fastest growng in he world at roughly 7% annually. This is due to Putins control of oil and gas mainly. Hence it' allso why Bush/Cheney want to "dethrone" him.

[David__77]

39. Go see the countryside.

Are there more rich people than in 1985 Russia? Of course there are. Income is much more unevenly distributed. While the economy contracted by 50% between 1990 and 1995, a minority were getting wealthy - in some cases, extremely wealthy. The social services were decimated. Investment in infrastructure and R&D nearly were also decimated. Gorbachev presided over the controlled disintegration of a country.

I think most Russians would just assume forget him.

[A wise Man]

22. As I read post response from 1 thru 21

Isn't it amazing that most of us can see right through this administration while 25% of the idiots in this country can't or won't!

[focusfan]

23. the man knows what he is talking about

he knows a dictator when he sees one

[cboy4]

24. Frankly, those quotes can probably be attributed to leaders and

former leaders from every country on earth.

[Vidar]

25. Applauding Gorby.

[Voice for Peace]

27. "Nature is my God" interview w/Gorbachev

http://www.resurgence.org/resurgence/184/gorbachev.htm

Worth reading if you've never seen it. AN interview by Fred Matser for Resurgence Magazine.
excerpt"

FM: WHAT VALUES ARE important to you?

GORBACHEV:
I am glad that you ask about values. The twentieth century has been one of the most tragic centuries, a century with a lot of bloodshed, domination and destruction. It is the most paradoxical century. On the one hand, we have made big breakthroughs in knowledge which has resulted in new technologies. On the other hand, because of these technological breakthroughs, for example, nuclear weapons, our very survival is in jeopardy. We are witnessing a breakdown of the proper relationship between humankind and the rest of nature.

I believe that this situation has arisen because we have retreated from the perennial values. I don't think that we need any new values. The most important thing is to try to revive the universally known values from which we have retreated.

As a young man, I really took to heart the Communist ideals. A young soul certainly cannot reject things like justice and equality. These were the goals proclaimed by the Communists. But in reality that terrible Communist experiment brought about repression of human dignity. Violence was used in order to impose that model on society. In the name of Communism we abandoned basic human values. So when I came to power in Russia I started to restore those values; values of "openness" and freedom.

FM: When did you understand that this model had to be rejected?

GORBACHEV:
There was no ''one day" when I understood. It took a whole life to draw conclusions. But when I realized what was happening and when I had the chance, I started to make changes. My philosophy is a philosophy based on common sense. Common sense refers to a sense of measure, a sense of moderation. If, for example, freedom is not linked to morality, it is not freedom. It is permissiveness. It is just self-seeking, rather than freedom.

Life has value in itself. Even if some methods are claimed to be progressive, if they result in destruction of life, then they are unacceptable. I believe that the twenty-first century must be the century of human beings living in harmony with nature, rather than being enslaved to technology.

We must encourage those who favour economic liberalism in Russia, but they must abandon the idea that they can use this ideological vacuum in order to impose Westernization as a way to solve our problems. I think that economic liberalism is no less vulnerable than Socialism or Communism. Economic prosperity must go hand in hand with social cohesion and ecological sustainability. What good is a lot of money when the social fabric is destroyed and the environment polluted?

Values such as solidarity, a socially-oriented economy, and the need to harmonize relations between humankind and the rest of nature are equally important. The future will depend on whether we will be able to find a synthesis, to find a fusion of ecological, liberal and social values. These I call "the perennial values''.

I want to put great emphasis on the intrinsic value of nature, because without nature people cannot exist. We must preserve both people and nature. If we do not respect nature, we could eventually disappear; and once again on Earth we could have nature without humankind. Humans gaining better knowledge of themselves and their role in the cosmos is of paramount importance. If we do that, then we can insure ourselves against many dangers. Humankind should become more modest in terms of its needs and more respectful of the environment of which we are just a part.

If we do not learn to live in harmony with nature, we shall make our own lives hopeless and we shall eventually jeopardize our own existence. In that sense I believe that we should go back to a new kind of renaissance. This new renaissance should be based on the idea that people should live more naturally.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

30. I respect Gorby above and beyond ANY American politician.

At least he speaks with a measure of honesty, unlike anyone in the American political system.

[whistle]

31. Well, it is the Bush Administration which is doing the sowing

...but certainly the American people are going to be held responsible for the mess which BushCo is creating.

That is why Bush and Cheney must be stopped and stopped now. Impeachment is one way to stop these men, another is for representatives from both parties can vote to ask both men to resign or at least Dick Cheney should be asked to resign right away. If he doesn't he should then be immediately impeached and removed from office. Then congress can begin the process of orderly withdrawal from Iraq and bring Russia, China and India in to help that process.

After that the people of America can take back their government and begin rebuilding the country WITHOUT THE CORPORATE AND NEOCON FASCISTS!

[ckramer]

32. Gorbachev was sowing USSR ‘disorder’

He's an idiot.

[dollie300]

33. Gorbi is correct. He was also correct when he pleaded with Reagan to go slow

with seeking economic changes in Russia in favor of getting their social services network together. The greedy neocon Russians walked off with cazillions of rubles and left the country eventually yearning for a return to some of its former policies.

[LeftishBrit]

38. Excellent point

I still think that if not for this rushing of economic change, Russia might have been in a much better state today.

[TuathaDaDanaan]

41. Gorby's words...

When Gorbachev says that the likes of Georgie Peorgie is evil, maybe we should listen...I mean, that man ought to know evil when he sees it!! And really, I don't think either Putin or Bush have real, true friends nor, do I feel, do they even know what friendship is. Peace!

[Doctor_J]

42. Misha - ever the diplomat

The word is "disaster", not disorder. Fortunately, we are now a second-rate power, so the world can withstand our collapse.

[gulliver]

45. "25% of our own citizens can't" ... see the massive mistake

Well pretty much all of those 25% voted strongly for the Bush/Cheney co-presidency. Those 25% of the voters are to blame for the mistake. There's no mystery that they don't see it.

[0007]

46. bttft

[dollie300]

53. Some links to accounts of the Gorbi-Reagan era for those too young to remember

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32927-2004Jun10.html
http://www.brook.edu/views/articles/talbott/20040801.htm