Virginia governor closes gun loophole

[slackmaster]

Source: Associated Press

RICHMOND, Va. - The governor on Monday closed the loophole in state law that allowed the Virginia Tech gunman to pass a federal background check and buy the weapons used in the massacre.

Gov. Timothy M. Kaine issued an executive order requiring that a database of people banned from buying guns include anyone who is found to be dangerous and ordered to undergo involuntary mental health treatment.

Seung-Hui Cho had been ordered to undergo psychiatric counseling after a judge ruled that he was a danger to himself.

But because Cho was treated as an outpatient and never committed to a mental health hospital, the court's decision was not entered into the database that gun dealers must check before selling a weapon.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070430/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech

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It's about time the states started living up to their responsibility to report everyone who is prohibited from buying a gun under FEDERAL law.

[Squatch]

1. There are still private firearms transfers...

to contend with.

[slackmaster]

6. The NICS database is available only to licensed gun dealers

IMO the way to fix private transfers is to open it up, with safeguards, so private parties can check up on people to whom they sell guns.

It is illegal for ANY person to provide a gun to a prohibited person. Making NICS available would make it a lot harder for someone to claim ignorance of a buyer's status.

[Squatch]

7. If it's ever extended to non-dealers, use of the NICS should be compulsory

for private firearms transfers.

[aikoaiko]

10. I can't think of a good reason why NICS is not available to the public.

It is comprised of publicly available data and the response from NICS is either good to go or no go. No details are provided.

[Squatch]

11. Adminstrative and management costs?

[aikoaiko]

13. You might be right, but its already up and running.

I can't believe it would be too much. Plus we could outsource it to India.

[Squatch]

14. Or, charge a nominal fee for its use.

Pay-as-you-go kinda thing.

[pitohui]

17. wow so any private snoop claiming to have a gun to sell can get your mental health records?

oh that'll work! anyone getting treatment for mental illness can forget about such basics as getting a job or an apartment again, their medical info will be on the street for anybody to see

[slackmaster]

18. The system would require safeguards

Like the person who gets checked being sent a written notification that a check was done, and who did it.

...anyone getting treatment for mental illness can forget about such basics as getting a job or an apartment again, their medical info will be on the street for anybody to see....

You concern is understandable, but you don't seem to know how NICS works - The input is a name, address, and Social Security number. That is compared against a list of known prohibited persons; the output is either approval to process the gun sale, or denial. No specifics are given as to the reason for denial. A person who gets denied can challenge the result, but the person who requests the check never gets to see the specific reason for denial.

One common reason for denial is having the same name as a prohibited person. Some people go through a major hassle with it every time they buy a firearm.

[pitohui]

19. a person i know who is a sociopath is a licensed private gun dealer

you're telling me that she could now get people's socials? this woman has committed uncounted acts of identity theft and credit card theft over the years just that i know of -- because this crime is almost never prosecuted, she has been able to do this for decades, literally, i'm talking about since the 70s

i'm not saying every private gun seller is a dickwad but some will be and some will use your name/social to have a nice night out

no, private folks should not be able to get our socials, sorry, no way, no how

one crazy screwed up and that's a shame but it shouldn't a license for an end to all privacy

[slackmaster]

20. Social security number is not required for a NICS check, but it can help

At least it is not required under federal law. Using it greatly reduces the chance of a denial because you happen to have the same name as a convicted felon, someone who has been dishonorably discharged from the military, etc.

The Social Security system was not intended to be used as an identity check, but it's ended up being used that way.

i'm not saying every private gun seller is a dickwad but some will be and some will use your name/social to have a nice night out

Unscrupulous retailers of all kinds, as well as dishonest bankers, have done the same thing many times. (I worked for a bank for seven years and saw some pretty scary embezzlements.)

BTW - by "licensed private gun dealer" I presume you mean the person has a Type 01 Federal Firearms License. If you have verifiable information that your acquaintence has committed crimes, I encourage you to report her to the BATFE. They have the power to revoke FFLs administratively, and take a dim view of licensees who are criminals. No conviction is required. They probably won't pursue it unless you have very compelling information, but IMO it's worth a try.

[Speaker]

23. It wouldn't take long for employers to figure out...

to run a NICS check on prospective employees to see if they are a bad seed.

The ultimate result would be that people would stop seeking mental health care.

[slackmaster]

24. As I posted previously, misuse of NICS would have to be criminalized

And a thumbs-down result of a NICS check provides no specific information as to why a person is not qualified to buy a gun.

[Speaker]

28. .

And a thumbs-down result of a NICS check provides no specific information as to why a person is not qualified to buy a gun.

True

But, if I have 2 prospective employees, and one passes the NICS check while the other fails it; guess who gets the job. I don't care what the reason is, if he can't be trusted with a gun, he can't be trusted with my money or customers.

[-..__...]

30. A prospective employer cannot run a NICS check.

Only an FFL can, plus... a NICS check can only be requested in conjunction with the purchase of a firearm. IOW... if a person wanted to check their own background (just to see what's kicked back),
they could not do it by going to a gun dealer and asking them to run a NICS check.

It's kind of moot anyways. Most criminal background checks (depending on job), utilize the same FBI databases as the NICS ... NCIC (National Crime Information Center, and the III (Interstate Identification Index).

[slackmaster]

32. Private investigators charge $100 or more to run that check

Plus a driving record check and one major credit bureau.

It's really quite the scam.

[Solo_in_MD]

8. Many states have closed that off too, IIRC including Virginia

[Squatch]

9. Nope.

Virginia:

No state requirement that criminal background checks be done on people buying firearms at gun shows, swap meets or through newspaper or internet advertisements. Criminal background checks are only required if the buyer goes to a federally-licensed gun store - all other sales are not subject to the background check.

[slackmaster]

16. Statement is not entirely accurate

A federally licensed gun dealer is required by law to follow the same procedures (paperwork, background check) regardless of where a transaction is conducted.

[VTMechEngr]

31. That isn't true.

The dealers at gun shows in Virginia perform the background check. I know this to be a fact.

[gratuitous]

2. Yesiree bob, that stable door is locked good and tight now

Now all we have to do is find the horse.

[wakeme2008]

3. Reseaonable but when will NRA start attacking him

:shrug:

[slackmaster]

5. It won't

NRA is on the right side on this one.

[underpants]

22. The NRA is scared to death of being perceived to be on the wrong side of this

PLUS Kaine has their highest rating because, as mayor of Richmond, he implemented "Project Exile" which is using Federal sentencing for gun crimes.

[onehandle]

4. Keeping guns from the mentally ill?

How will freepers arm themselves?

The NRA and their gun manufacturer clients to the rescue!

[zanne]

25. How about people who become psychotic...

After they purchase a gun? It's a weak law to begin with; closing a "loophole" isn't going to do much.

[slackmaster]

27. How do you know when someone has "become psychotic"?

Does that not require a medical diagnosis, or an adjudication by a court of law?

This is not something that should be left open to arbitrary or capricious declarations by amateurs. If you are proposing that people who become diagnosed or adjudicated as mentally incompetent get forced to divest themselves of weapons, that's certainly open to discussion within the framework of respecting their constutional rights against unlawful search and seizure.

[zanne]

29. slackmaster--I know where you stand...

You know where I stand. Let's just agree to disagree on this subject.

[jody]

12. Psychiatrist said Cho "did not present an imminent threat" so he would not be in NICS under Kaine's

order. :shrug:

“Cho was under the gun sales radar

According to court records, Cho was declared mentally ill by the intake officer who evaluated him on Dec. 13, 2005, at New River Valley Community Services, a public provider of mental health services.

On the basis of that evaluation, a court magistrate issued a "temporary detention order" and Cho spent the night at Carilion Saint Albans Behavioral Health Center in Christiansburg.

The next day Cho was evaluated more fully by a psychiatrist, and met with a special justice. According to court records, the psychiatrist also declared the future gunman mentally ill but determined that Cho "did not present an imminent threat" to himself and others, and did not require hospitalization.

On that basis, the justice issued a certificate saying that Cho "presents an imminent danger to himself" but ordered him to receive outpatient treatment instead of hospitalization.

[MrPrax]

15. See how oppression works...

Instead of doing the sane thing like meaningful gun control, they use a tragedy to provide even MORE arbitrary laws to strip general rights from people and expand their homeland database.

Doubleplusgood...it's good living in a age where the elites think that shocking social violence is simply a 'challenging' PR problem, and not a time for honest reflection of what's gone wrong.

[benEzra]

21. How would you have "meaningful gun control" without extreme coercion?

There are ~80 million of us out here who will not voluntarily empty our gun safes just because you want to use us as a convenient stand-in for violent criminals and the truly mentally ill.

Ever thought about what "meaningful gun control" would look like in the United States?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x139998

I do agree with you about not passing arbitrary laws to strip general rights from those with mental illness, though.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SunDrop23]

33. Thumbs up to Tim Kaine!