Chavez launches biting US attack (Chavez is now in Bolivia)

[IndianaGreen]

While the Son of Satan travels to Colombia from Uruguay stolling the virtues of rapacious capitalism, the Son of Man travels to Bolivia with his Gospel of peace and hope.

Last Updated: Sunday, 11 March 2007, 04:56 GMT

Chavez launches biting US attack

The President of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, on a tour of Latin America, has launched a stinging attack on the US.

Visiting Bolivia, the firebrand leftist leader Mr Chavez said that capitalism was "the road to hell".

He underlined the billions of dollars of aid that Venezuela is ploughing into Bolivia's economy at a time when the US is reducing its contributions.

US President George W Bush has avoided discussing his rival's regional trip during his own visit to Latin America.

Heaven and earth

"Those who want to go directly to hell, they can follow capitalism," Mr Chavez said in the town of Trinidad in Bolivia.

"And those of us who want to build heaven here on earth, we will follow socialism," he added.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6438753.stm

[BayCityProgressive]

1. LOL

this must be such a shock to Bush. Even if you don't like Chavez you have to admit this is quite entertaining..the Great Decider never thought anyone would challenge him! After all, you're either for or against the war president!! Apparently Latin America has picked it's side and it isn't "for". Bush thinks he can say whatever he wants about other world leaders..now karma is biting him in the ass..

[IndianaGreen]

3. The Bush family is renowned for their pettiness

I would not be surprised if by the time the Decider returns to the US that we will be hearing new charges from Condi Rice and Dick Cheney about Hugo Chavez being in league with Al-Qaeda and being part of 9-11.

[Vincardog]

4. Biting him in the ass, is better than he deserves. better he should be Branded in the ass

As he did to the pledges in his frat house.
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[EFerrari]

28. Besides all the other reasons I like Mr. Chavez, I love the way he

finds a way to piss off Junior nearly every day. :evilgrin:

[bemildred]

2. Says elsewhere he called Bush a "political cadaver".

If only the imperial legions were not busy in Iraq, we could send them down south to punish this insolent rebel.

[IndianaGreen]

5. It is precisely because of Bush's obsession with conquering the Middle East

together with his imperial armies getting a taste of what British got in Iraq in the 1920s, that the people of Latin America have had an historical chance to decide whether they want to chart a new course for their nations without fear of US Marines landing on their shores.

[bemildred]

7. Yep. Grand, isn't it?

It's an ill wind that blows nobody good, and Iraq's disaster is Latin America's blessing. And Iran's, and N. Koreas, or Kim Jong Il's anyway, and China's, and Russia's, and so on. Meanwhile, we here in the good old USA are going to get screwed even more than we are already.

[EFerrari]

29. Exactly. n/t

[ronnie624]

6. The Matrix

Mr Bush spent Saturday in Uruguay where he spoke of the US care for the "human condition" and its "quiet, effective diplomacy".

The false reality perpetuated by our government is, at times, almost maddening.

[BayCityProgressive]

8. Viva Chavez

and Latin America...I applaud their moves to break away from the new global corporatism...by the time the US finally leaves Iraq the revolution will be laid in cement in the South. Venezuela, Uraguay, Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Bolivia, Cuba, Ecuador all have left wing governments and Paraguay and Guatemala may be soon to follow. Most of these countries have nationalized their major resources, created new social programs and a new common trade policy, along with an emerging bank of the south. Within the next 5 yrs I think we will be seeing a Democratic Socialist version of the Soviet Union or EU in Latin America. This is why Bush is placing a new base, AFRICOM, in Africa....they are terrified it will happen there too..

** on edit, add Nicaragua to that list as well..

[NEOBuckeye]

11. Doesn't matter what Bush does anymore. The whole world opposes him, and will continue to do so.

I have read that China has been making inroads into Africa, providing aid of all sorts from financial and infrastructure, to medical. I don't think that would necessarily cause African nations to emerge as another Socialist bloc, but the "counter-influence" against the US will definitely have an effect, since the NeoCons in power would rather drop bombs and terrorize, thinking that people should just bow down to them and submit. AFRICOM is ultimately doomed to fail for this reason.

Mexico would be Left-wing today, but the Bushes interfered and prevented Lopez-Obrador's election there because they couldn't bear the thought of having a Socialist government on the US' southern border. Still, the resistance remains, and will continue as part of the general socialist-reform movement in South and Central America. Eventually, Mexico, too, will have its' day.

[Joe Bacon]

19. But millions of Christians blindly follow President Pied Piper

Bush STILL has millions of ¢hri$tian$ worshipping the ground he walks on. Look at the Nazis who run the Presidential Prayer Team over at http://www.presidentialprayerteam.org/ and the sickos that run Force Ministries, the ¢hri$tian organization that runs our military at http://www.forceministries.com Read the letter posted by the ¢hri$tian soldier on the Force Ministries web page. Can you tell the difference between it or a letter written by an SS officer in 1942?

these people are INSANE, their leader Hagee wants to trigger Armageddon so that millions of my people are killed in Israel. Yet, AIPAC worships the ground that Hitler wannebee walks on.

These ¢hri$tian$ are nothing more than lemmings. Bush is leading them like the Pied Piper and they're getting ready to jump into the ocean en masse!

[luckyleftyme2]

32. CHINA JUST MADE A DEAL WITH CHAVEZ

CHINA MADE A HUGE OIL DEAL WITH CHAVEZ,THEY ALSO ARE INTERESTED IN ETHENOL AND ARE WORKING WITH BRAZIL;THIS COULD BE THE BIGGEST BLUNDER OF THE BUSH REIGN.
AND HE MAY HAVE MORE BARK THAN BITE BUT JUNIOR SURE IS SKIRTING HIM.

[ronnie624]

12. Hopefully, these movements

will come to fruition on a global scale, before the corporatist system destroys us all, in its never ending quest for power and wealth.

[manic expression]

72. Capitalism is a self-destructive system

Its overthrow by the workers is inevitable.

[eridani]

97. Nothing is inevitable

The good guys might win if we work at it successfully, but there are no guarantees. For Stalinists Historical Necessity takes the place of tradtional concepts of God the Asskicker Who Is Always On Our Side, with exactly the same ill effects. One of the good things about Chavez is that he doesn't think he has all tha answers.

[manic expression]

99. Change is inevitable

However, it oftentimes takes work. Although inertia is on our side, if we don't fight all will be lost. Basically, we just need to plant the seeds in order for spring to blossom.

"Philosophers have interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it."

- Karl Marx

And I'm a Marxist-Leninist; Stalinism isn't an ideology.

[Ken Burch]

101. I agree that you aren't a Stalinist...however, you should be aware that

"Leninism" was the term Stalin used to describe his methods and his(often bloodily shifting)analysis.

Lenin never heard the word "Leninism". Lenin would have simply considered himself a Marxist who created one structure(the vanguard party)to bring a revolution to power.

The left needs to move beyond a rigid oldline definition of "vanguardism" and listen instead to the ideas of thinkers like Rosa Luxemburg and some of the more creative New Left and post-1998 radical thinkers, who look to the masses themselves and a radical,decentralized and democratic socialist transformation. I think that Che would agree with this now.

[manic expression]

105. I am aware of that

People who are called Stalinists are just communists who believe Stalin was a good Marxist-Leninist leader. If you ask me, Stalin never had an analysis, he was just a strongman who sorely lacked the intellectual prowess of Lenin or Trotsky.

That's right, "LeninISM" became so after his death, but before that it was basically just called "Bolshevism" or "Maximalism" or something like that.

I think the idea of the vanguard is important and useful. I have nothing against Luxemburg and I treasure her writings, but the concept of the vanguard is something observable in almost every movement: the politically advanced sector of the working classes will lead the revolution.

I do think that Che was a Leninist, and I do think he would be one today. If one thing is for certain, Che and every other communist of note (especially Connolly) would oppose democratic socialism, because working within a bourgeois government will change nothing (also decentralization will simply weaken us, it is a class war and we need to be united in a strong group). However, these are small differences and all comrades should work towards our common goals together.

[eridani]

103. Yes, but change for the better is not

There IS no "scientific" system which guarantees that we are going to win. "Ghost dancing" rhetoric is not going to make our shirts bulletproof. Really.

Personally, I think Marx and Lennon were much better at diagnosing the problems of capitalism than they were at solutions.

[manic expression]

106. As long as we work for it

The processes of revolution needs to be studied and refined. However, the solutions are there, the applications are not as clear.

Lenin formulated a viable way of creating socialism, and that needs to be acknowledged. Leninist revolutions have gained successes worldwide (Russia, Cuba, Central America, etc...).

I have no problem with other leftist ideologies, but I personally feel that Lenin's ideas are a good basis for revolution. That's just my opinion, and I want to work with leftists of all stripes.

[eridani]

118. I prefer the communism of Kerala, myself

No one party arrogantly deciding that it represents the interests of all workers, high levele of political participation, First World literacy levele,life expectancies and male/female ratios, the whole works. All on a per capita income of about $300/year. I like to think Cuba would have turned out more like that had they the good luck to be a political subunit of a much larger state, and therefore invasion proof and protected from US terrorism. In case you haven't noticed, being under attack never brings out the best in people.

[TankLV]

160. The only reality is CHANGE...

There is no such thing as remaing static or constant...

[Greyhound]

126. I'm Afraid America is already lost. We still probably have, a rapidly closing,

window of opportunity, but our nation's leaders are not interested in using it, and by the time the average American wakes up it will be too late.

The only ace we have left is our consumer market, 10 years ago we were the only game in town, then the EU came together and there were two places to sell, but their governments are not nearly as willing to sell their future as ours is. The global fascism that is taking over is preparing to leave the US entirely, they just need a few more years for the Indian and Chinese markets to attain a critical mass of affluence to support them and then we will be nothing but a memory of a stepping stone.

They've been laying the groundwork for this since the 70's and in all that time neither political party has been willing to even talk about it, let alone stop it.

[IndianaGreen]

9. Torture, rendition, and secret military tribunals show how the US cares for the "human condition."

Add to the invasion of Iraq, and the training and funding of death squads all over the world, it screams volumes about how much the Bush regime hates freedom.

[BayCityProgressive]

10. What is the US going to do

When Latin America declares itself a Socialist Bloc? The US can't embargo an entire continent and now with all of the new political scandal, it looks like their allies in Columbia may even fall..

[Judi Lynn]

14. Nothing addresses the "human condition" like the School of the Americas' torture manual! n/t

[gorbal]

You made me do some research-

People who are trying to figure out what is going on should read this-

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/SOA/SOA_TortureManuals.html

A snippet

Several recently declassified US military training manuals show how US agents taught repressive techniques and promoted the violation of human rights throughout Latin America and around the globe. The manuals provide the paper trail that proves how the US trained Latin American and other militaries to infiltrate and spy upon civilians and groups, including unions, political parties, and student and charitable organizations; to treat legal political opposition like armed insurgencies; and to circumvent laws on due process, arrest, and detention. In these how-to guides, the US advocates tactics such as executing guerrillas, blackmail, false imprisonment, physical abuse, using truth serum to obtain information, and paying bounties for enemy dead. Counterintelligence agents are advised that one of their functions is "recommending targets for neutralization," a euphemism for execution or destruction.
On September 20, 1996, the Pentagon released seven training manuals prepared by the US military and used between 1987 and 1991 for intelligence training courses in Latin America and at the US Army School of the Americas (SOA), where the US trains Latin American militaries.

[Judi Lynn]

13. It's a real sanity test just reading the news the last few days, for sure. n/t

[IndianaGreen]

15. Had we taken to the streets and engaged in civic resistance to Bush's appointment to Presidency

and had we shown the same resolute determination from Latin Americans to oppose injustice, we wouldn't be in the situation we find ourselves in today. Let's face it, our civic institutions have failed to prevent Bush from assuming dictatorial powers and from launching wars of choice. As late as today, our Congress still refuses to even discuss impeachment.

[Judi Lynn]

16. Everything we thought was built in to protect us did fail, you're right.

We're probably here because the Republicans have been working away at this plan for a very long time, fully intending to wrest control out of the hands of the people completely, at some point.

You recall how pompously they have often gibbered to Americans that we don't live in a democracy, after all, it's a By God M.F.'in "Republic."

[BayCityProgressive]

18. you are correct

our government has failed. Our checks and balances have failed. We really need some sweeping changes if we want to keep a Democracy.

[CRH]

134. We have already lost the democracy ...

with corporate financed elections of corporate financed parties that give only one marauding capitalistic world view to choose from. The only real choice is which corporate financiers we care to have direct our destiny.

[Judi Lynn]

137. It has been so easy for them since almost everyone didn't feel anything this bad could really happen

Blinded by the propaganda, lulled to sleep by corporate media. Whatever consciousness has been left over was easy to deaden by self-medication, obsession with acquisition, and keeping the myth alive at all costs.

Good to see your comments, CRH. Welcome to D.U. :hi:

[manic expression]

81. We must ask ourselves why

and the only conclusion is that "civic resistance" does nothing to stop the system from being what it is. Bush is simply a Bonapartist, he is not overturning anything; in short, he is simply more openly conservative than his predecessors.

The solution is to overthrow the entire system, as it is the system of the bourgeoisie.

[Vidar]

17. Chavez is certainly right about the "hell" of American-style capitalism.

[Joe Bacon]

20. You took the words right out of my mouth!

We're gonna have a lot of fun, especially now that the mortgage markets are collapsing! :sarcasm:

[Pavulon]

21. Wait, I thought he only hated Bush?

now it is the capitalist system. Guess I am on the fast track to hell.

Considering every COMMUNIST nation I have visited is a 3rd world mess or is in the process of recovering from years of socialist micro management.

The biggest irony is that he is playing animal farm with petro dollars from the US.

I assume you are a citizen of the US and enjoy the capitalist system here and(or) in europe. When you need a new organ or brain surgery be sure to head for a socialist paradise.

I'll take hopkins or cedar. You get what you pay for. The potential to earn wealth drives competition and excellence.

[rman]

22. There's one communist nation,

and in many ways it is paradise compared to the US.

[Pavulon]

36. North Korea?

[manic expression]

47. What is the ideology of North Korea? n/t

[rman]

125. Cuba

Just compare what it means to be poor in Cuba and what it means to be poor in the US.

[INDIA]

49. Yeah rman, you got me. Let's hear it.

Which is the one true communist nation?

[rman]

128. I think

Cuba comes closest to being a true communist nation.

I do have some issues both with communism and with Cuba/Castro, but if i'd be poor and i'd have a choice between living in Cuba and living in the US, it would be no contest.

[Odin2005]

23. Most so called "communist" contries are/were "state capitalist," thjey are/wern't really socialist.

In a State Capitalist system the economy is a huge corporation ran for the benefit of the ruling class. Also, Chavez, Morales, etc are democratic socialists, not the illiberal totalitarians of the Leninist variety.

[manic expression]

26. Untrue

"State capitalism" is a flawed analysis, if it even is one to begin with. No one can provide a sufficient definition for the term, making it wholly invalid.

Leninists have done more for the workers of the world than any other movement. "Democratic socialists" have whined and moaned about people making real change from the lap of the bourgeoisie.

Oh, and Chavez has cited Lenin as one of his inspirations and influences.

[rman]

124. With "communism" people usually mean Stalinist USSR and Maoist

China. Neither had very much to do with communism.

Stalin sure didn't do much for workers anywhere.

"In 1933, worker's real earnings sank to about one-tenth of the 1926 level"

Joseph Stalin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Stalin_and_changes_in_Soviet_society


On edit:
Lenin and Trotsky never got around to actually realizing communism in Russia.

[manic expression]

129. Yes

My opinion on Stalin isn't completely fixed, but I think 90% of what he did was detrimental, wrong and unnecessary. However, the Soviets defeated the Nazis using the industrial base that he built up in a matter of decades (which was no small feat).

Mao had good intentions and made some important progress, but he made a few huge blunders which were very costly (Great Leap Forward was a terrible miscalculation, the Cultural Revolution spun out of his control and became something he never thought it would be).

They didn't have anything to do with communism because they were socialist, and both Stalin and Mao would describe their countries as such.

Lenin and Trotsky were able leaders and improved the Soviet Union immensely, their programmes were positive to say the least.

[rman]

187. "Stalin and Mao would describe their countries as socialist"

I don't care much about what any leader calls his own country, except insofar that it relates to the official label of the country. I mean, the US is called a "democracy"...
If socialism and communism are supposed to benefit the workers, but an implementation of it is to the detriment of the workers, then in my book it isn't communism nor socialism. In my book Stalin was an authoritarian, a tyrant.
Lenin and Trotsky are another matter, but their Russia was not communist in practice.

[manic expression]

195. Perhaps but I am talking of something else

"communism" is stateless, borderless and classless. "Socialism" is the dictatorship of the proletariat, in which there is a state with classes and class conflict. The point I was making was that there never has been "communism", and there won't be until a worldwide revolution.

You can call Stalin a tyrant if you like, and I would basically agree with you. However, the USSR was still good for the workers to some degree or another (better than what would've replaced it, that's for sure).

[TankLV]

161. Kinda hard when your dead - Trotsky was assisinated shortly after the revolution...

He ran away from Russia as far as he could go - and he was killed anyway...

[manic expression]

173. Shortly after?

try 23 years (he was assassinated in 1940).

I admire Trotsky to the utmost extent, by the way. He is among my biggest influences (of which there are many) and I cherish his ideas.

[manic expression]

25. Your ignorance is as thick as it is laughable

"Communist nation" is an OXYMORON, it is contradictory. However, I don't expect people like yourself to know what they're talking about.

Countries on a communist path (aka socialist countries) are 1000% better than capitalist countries.

Yes, Chavez hates the bourgeois capitalist system, because it is based upon exploitation, deprivation and oppression.

The potential to earn wealth drives unspeakable suffering, cruelty, injustice, inequity, pain and worse. The potential to depose of this putrid system is, truly, excellent.

[Pavulon]

37. Like I said

you get sick you come here. Head to Caracas when you need orthoscopic surgery on your gi tract or cancer removed from your brain. Your family will miss you.

Countries on that path do not make the basic things required to be a first world nations.

You want to innovate come to a capitalist country. My profession is a simple example. Europe, Japan, and the US innovate in CNC machining. The rest are reverse engineers. People given an opportunity to profit from being smart are more productive.

And replace it with what? Soviet style communism, nope. It is a dead concept.

"you are now a metal polisher at factory 27, your family lives in co op 17 building 7, room 6"

Sorry I'll take what we have here.

[manic expression]

39. You're mistaken

Cuba has world class health care that is available to everyone; meanwhile, people in the US die of tooth infections because they don't have health care.

If you're poor in the US, you get sick and you get left out in the cold. Oh, and orthoscopic surgery is only available to rich people, but nice try.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that Cuba doesn't have good health care? :rofl: CUBA HAS A BETTER INFANT MORTALITY RATE THAN WE DO! Get a clue.

The Soviet Union pioneered methods of industry management that capitalist corporations are only beginning to copy (I can get a link for you, if you wish). The USSR sent the first satellite into space, the first man into space, made the first electronic instrument and more. Innovation is to be found in Communist-led countries without a doubt.

A "dead concept"? Yeah, too bad Cuba uses a Soviet model, Venezuela is gradually implementing one based off of the Soviet model and movements around the world are fighting to establish Soviet models. Sorry, have fun denying reality (like most reactionary capitalists do).

Is that strawman the best you can do? When you "take what we have", you're taking a system of exploitation, deprivation, inequity and worse. For the bourgeoisie and their lap dogs, that's a good deal; for the workers of the world (aka almost everyone), it's something that must be overthrown.

[Pavulon]

41. Dead,,They should bury his corpse

My grandma on SS had it. Guess she is super rich. My wife works in the medical profession I know how it works. If you have Medicaid you get great treatment. Same doctors same nurses as us rich insured people. Can't refuse service.

I had the rich mans insurance from the first day I had a job in a machine shop.

Yeah Cuba is so great people die trying to navigate home made boats to Florida. I guess paradise is a little more equal for some.

How many people die trying to escape the US to the wonderful world of CANADA? (nothing against canada)

The USSR reverse engineered the tu aircraft, got to space with smart Germans from ww2, like us, and collapsed.

[manic expression]

43. Burying his corpse won't do a thing to stop his ideas

he wanted to be buried anyway (he also didn't want any statues of him built).

Your grandma...on SS. IF you have medicaid? Why should there be a variable?

Actually, there isn't that much emigration from Cuba, even though the US offers more visas to Cubans than any other nation on earth, as well as the fact that there is amnesty to any Cuban who gets to US shores. Furthermore, the emigration that does happen is purely do to economic circumstances, circumstances CREATED BY THE US. You see, there's been a siege upon the island for about half a century, so naturally some people will try to get to a place where you can make more money. However, most Cubans want to stay.

So, that point is completely invalid. Did you even stop to think about it?

How many people die because of capitalism? Many.

The USSR made many achievements and innovations, that much is undeniable (although it seems like you are trying to deny it).

[Pavulon]

45. Stalin loved his purges

not just firings, killing millions. A great achievement.

1.25 million Cubans can be wrong..

Plenty of Europeans do business with them. So the evil us has caused the failure of the wonderful communist nations.

See the link of nations..Lots of former communist nations..

[manic expression]

46. Typical

a capitalist doesn't have an argument, so s/he pulls up Stalin. I knew it would come eventually!

Most of Stalin's purges are gross overestimations.

How many Cubans have stayed and enjoyed the achievements of the revolution? Are they wrong, too? Your points are meaningless and invalid.

SOME companies/countries trade with Cuba, but far from many. In fact, Cuba is in one of the worst economic situations on the planet. The fact that they have maintained such great levels of education, healthcare, housing, cultural promotion and more is astounding and a testament to the path of communism (and, IMO, the Soviet system).

Again, define "socialist nation".

[Pavulon]

50. Short definition, somewhere I do not want to live.

Socialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to social control.<1> This control may be either direct—exercised through popular collectives such as ]—or indirect—exercised on behalf of the people by the state. As an economic system, socialism is often characterized by state or community ownership of the means of production.

The modern socialist movement had its origin largely in the working class movement of the late-19th century. In this period, the term "socialism" was first used in connection with European social critics who condemned capitalism and private property. For Karl Marx, who helped establish and define the modern socialist movement, socialism implied the abolition of money, markets, capital, and labor as a commodity.

A diverse array of doctrines and movements have been referred to as "socialist." Since the 19th century, socialists have not agreed on a common doctrine or program. The various adherents of socialist movements are split into differing and sometimes opposing branches, particularly between reformist socialists and communists.

Since the 19th century, socialists have differed in their vision of socialism as a system of economic organization. Some socialists have championed the complete nationalization of the means of production, while social democrats have proposed selective nationalization of key industries within the framework of mixed economies. Some Marxists, including those inspired by the Soviet model of economic development, have advocated the creation of centrally planned economies directed by a state that owns all the means of production. Others, including Communists in Yugoslavia and Hungary in the 1970s and 1980s, Chinese Communists since the reform era, and some Western economists, have proposed various forms of market socialism, attempting to reconcile the presumed advantages of cooperative or state ownership of the means of production with letting market forces, rather than central planners, guide production and exchange.<2> Anarcho-syndicalists and some elements of the U.S. New Left favor decentralized collective ownership in the form of cooperatives or workers' councils. Others may advocate different arrangements.

[manic expression]

52. No

That definition describes the many ideologies of socialism, not "socialist nation".

Try again, you might have missed this time, but at least you're getting closer!

[nick303]

87. "Grossly overestimated?"

Says who? Are you at least willing to admit that they did happen? I wouldn't exactly brush that aside.

[manic expression]

91. Yes

The usually cited numbers are basically overestimations. More than that, they blame the Soviets for famines caused by weather and Kulak sabatoge.

Anyway, the purges did indeed happen, as did the famines, as did the forced labor. However, like I said, the numbers you usually hear are gross overestimations (if not outright lies).

[Hunky Dunky]

121. So, what's the "correct" number?

How many million did Comrade Josef kill?

[manic expression]

130. For starters

we need to establish the relevance of the famine. The famine was clearly a result of weather and a bad harvest, compounded by Kulak sabotage. Therefore, we shouldn't include it.

Now, even "Stalinists" would say that Stalin killed many people due to the fact that there were many counterrevolutionaries. However, I wouldn't put the number higher than 4m, and it is probably a lot lower IMO.

[Pavulon]

143. 4 MILLION. 250000 tons of flesh..Great system.

[manic expression]

150. I'm sorry but that's just laughable

Please, continue to humor me by making even more ludicrous statements that lack any shred of logic or reason. It really is a treat to see such blatant ignorance and delusion.

For the record, you haven't made a single point all thread long. If you want to try, maybe you should analyze the situation surrounding the USSR during Stalin's rule (which should amount to something like: "they killed lots of people!").

:rofl:

[Pavulon]

156. Take your meds, Stalin was a mass murderer

you are off your fucking nut. Killed men women and children for political control. You have a guy who lived in the USSR on this thread telling you are full of shit, and a litany of sources citing this. This is ACCEPTED historical fact.

I do not use ignore, but I cant see where there is anything left to say here.

Your revolution is dead, communism is dead, the brain died in the 91, the body is still twitching a bit. But it is fucking dead.

Some things really are that simple. Shooting people in the brain with a makarov makes them dead.

edit:spelling

[manic expression]

171. Look at my post

I know many people were killed under Stalin. However, you fail to look at the political situation surrounding those deaths.

"Killed men women and children for political control"? Overstate much? Sure, he took out political enemies, but to say that he massacred children is ridiculous and is in defiance of the facts.

Oh, so that person was living in the 20's and 30's? Get real.

Your "accepted historical fact" is a bunch of crap manufactured by WILLIAM RANDOLF HEARST of all people. You're parroting a century of lies and BS through your thick delusion.

The revolution is dead? Look at this very thread, reactionary, and see the evidence that capitalism is being overthrown. All around the world, workers are revolting against the bourgeoisie. Cuba is strong, Venezuela is turning towards a Soviet model, communists in Nepal are making gains, FARC is as strong as it has ever been, the people of Russia are once again turning to the Communist Party, the LIST GOES ON, and SO DOES THE REVOLUTION. You cannot stop the inevitable, and that is the destruction of your self-destructive system of exploitation. Reactionaries were claiming the exact same thing you are in 1871, and THEY'RE STILL WRONG.

Rest assured, the revolution is alive and well, despite the lies of the capitalists and their lap dogs.

[MAGICBULLET]

203. FARC is as strong as it has ever been ???

The FARC really does kill children or ANYONE with complete disregard. Are you praising them as part of your revolution??? If so, fight it, but don't be surprised when your ass gets shot. Tons of guns that I can't glorify, 'cause more guns will come and much more will die.

[manic expression]

211. Yes it is

and it is trying to help Colombia. And no, FARC does not "kill children or ANYONE with complete diregard", that much is a blatant misconception.

[Pavulon]

207. Sure I can stop it

we did once. Smashed it. But there is no need. People see it for what it is. East Berlin is forever tied with the communist agenda. So shitty they have to build a WALL to keep people from escaping.

Cuba is a vacation resort for europe, nepal is where rich people go to climb everest.

Russia is not "embracing communism" talk to russians..Russia is an emerging market.

FARC is a regional conflict. Who cares.

CHINA is a MASSIVE CAPITALIST market. HUGE.

People write books, read them.

[manic expression]

212. No you can't

East Berlin? You are, again, being delusional. East Germany was a buffer state, the Soviets WANTED it to be weak.

Cuba has been providing for its people in every way, Nepal will improve if the Maoists can take control.

Russia is a hell hole because of its "emerging market". However, MANY Russians are turning to the Communists yet again.

FARC is fighting capitalism in a country that needs their help.

Did I cite China? No, I didn't. People write posts, read them.

[TankLV]

163. Tell it to the 6 million Ukrainians he killed.

I was initially going to respond to those trying to illluminate some of Pavulon's exaggerations, but I can't believe some of you are actually trying to defend Stalin and hail Cuba as some sort of paradise!

I will just sit back and try not to snicker as you all expose yourselves for what you all are...

And I almost consider myself a socialist, too...

That Stalin DELIBERATELY and INTENTIONALLY killed the Ukrainians for the crime of wanting to have their own nation is a FACT.

That he literally - LITERALLY - prevented all food shipments INTO the country, and CONFISCATED all agrigultural production is a FACT.

Now I want you to tell all of us what great guys Mao and Lennin were...

[manic expression]

172. Riddle me this

if the Soviets were trying to kill Ukrainians, then why did the cities suffer very few deaths? That certainly contradicts your claim. The simple fact is that the Ukrainian cities did not starve. Ask yourself WHY that is.

The Soviets were confiscating agricultural production because the Kulaks were burning it. They tried to distribute it as effectively as possible, but famine was a foregone conclusion by that point.

Try to get your facts straight.

[EstoniaKat]

180. How embarrasing

Here's a second former "citizen" of the USSR, here to tell you that you are either a poser or an idiot.

My country has been depopulated by 25% from its pre-Soviet occupation days. But I'm sure that's just a coincidence. Or maybe it was the deportations, the gulag, or the destroyer squads that used to roam the countryside.

People like you that try to defend the indefensible gives the left a bad name, and the right an easy target.

If you care to come to the 'former communist paradise,' I will be happy to educate you on what we call here reality.

[manic expression]

193. How amusing

Nice of you to forget that whole WWII thing, which might have had something to do with Estonia's population (it did). Oh, and didn't Estonia work with the Nazi's (and volunteer for the SS?)?

Cite some sources, your (misled) anger doesn't count for really anything.

People like myself defend a state which deserves to be defended. Check out the statistics of what has happened to Ukraine and Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union; life expectancy, unemployment, homelessness (IIRC, it's at around 50% right now in Ukraine) and more have ALL gotten worse.

[EstoniaKat]

234. Again, you embarrass yourself for all to see

Yeah, WW II had something to do with our population decline. And it also had something to do with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact that pre-dated the war. Thousands were dead in my country before the official kickoff of the war.

I'm not your monkey. Find your own link sources. You have no idea what my anger is; you, probably couldn't find my country without a google search. With your SS slander, you obviously have no idea of its history.

you are obviously an idiot, and a poseur. I'm not going to waste my time on those who defend totalitarianism.

You are sad, really.

[EFerrari]

61. Can refuse service. Do everyday. n/t

[Pavulon]

64. Can not refuse service, huge liability.

b) Necessary stabilizing treatment for emergency medical conditions and labor
(1) In general
If any individual (whether or not eligible for benefits under this subchapter) comes to a hospital and the hospital determines that the individual has an emergency medical condition, the hospital must provide either—
(A) within the staff and facilities available at the hospital, for such further medical examination and such treatment as may be required to stabilize the medical condition, or
(B) for transfer of the individual to another medical facility in accordance with subsection (c) of this section.

[EFerrari]

71. There is the law and then, there is real life. n/t

[Mika]

109. ... and then bill you. Can't pay? Bankruptcy. Forclosure. Collection agencies...

.. bad credit rating means no mortgage, even no job.

As a result MILLIONS of Americans are destitute and homeless. Many are children.

This simply cannot happen in Cuba. Medical care at all levels is universal and at no additional charge to all, no matter what.

[Pavulon]

140. Payment plan

50 a month for years. Pretty fair. My cast was a about a thousand after all the specialists.

Cuba is so great people defect.

[ProudDad]

222. Ok, I'll call you on your sh*t

Other than the boatlift, post some links about "defections" in the last few years other than a few baseball pitchers cashing in...

[Pavulon]

228. Million plus cubans

in the us, countless defections, mig flights into the us, etc. No one defects to cuba.
Cuba sucks so people leave.

[Judi Lynn]

229. You'd have to be brain damaged to be unaware of the hundreds of people who die in the desert,

or in the water trying to get from Mexico to the U.S., and die trying to make the trip from any number of Caribbean islands to the U.S. annually, some coming in small boats from as far away as 700 miles.

Most of us have heard of the heavy incentives open to Cubans who come by boat, too: instant legal status, no one running after them to deport them once they make dry ground here, instant access to a work visa, food stamps, social security, food stamps, Section 8 U.S. taxpayer-financed housing, financial assistance for education, etc., etc., etc.

If these extravagances were available to the other economic immigrants we would be SWAMPED with people, from a long time ago. We PAY them to come here.

We DEPORT everyone else who comes without papers.

By the way, more Americans would live in Cuba than do at this time, since the U.S. refuses to send their social security check to them when they retire if they are living in Cuba.

CIA agent Philip Agee lives in Cuba currently.

Tell your tall ones somewhere else.

[ProudDad]

230. I personally know

at least two people who have defected to Cuba from the good ole' u s of a... Anectodal evidence indeed, but more accurate than your overblown rhetoric...

Please, Pavulon. This is kind of fun but you're becomming a parody of yourself, my friend.

A Million Cubans? I must demand a link for this as far as bodies across the water. Of course, if you're talking about 48 years of screwing creating new little U.S. version of Cubans, ok, we might agree on the number.

Countless defections - hyperbole

MIG FLIGHTS!!?!???!?? What ARE you smoking? If a MIG got within 50 miles of the U.S. border it not only would have been obliterated but it would have been ALL OVER THE NEWS -- link please....

"Cuba sucks so people leave"???

Have you been there? How do you know Cuba "sucks". Is that your opinion based on your extensive research into the lifestyle and points of view of Cuban people. I've BEEN there and my expert opinion is that Cuba DOESN'T suck. So there!!!

Is Cuba a Socialist Paradise, no it's not. It's a work in progress and because of the hatred of the U.S. and their lack of many natural resources (read OIL) they've had a very tough time of it. Now Venezuela, on the other hand, has a good chance at Socialist Paradist status.

The U.S. dangle a bullshit story about a "capitalist paradise and streets paved with gold" blatted by the bloviators on Radio Marti (a blasphemy, that name) and a (VERY FEW) Cubans leave. In addition, in spite of what your prejudices would like you to believe, during a stroll through the safe, quiet, lovely streets at night you can see the blue glow of Miami television stations from tv sets in the apartments of Havana. Then, once they defect, most of those poor Cubans only find that it WAS bullshit. Many are scooped up to cook and wash and clean and hang drywall for the Cuban elites of Miami.

[ProudDad]

221. Ok,

YOU sit in a f*cking ER waiting room for 11 1/2 HOURS and NOT GET SEEN BY A DOCTOR in your capitalist fucking paradise and see if you can still argue this nonsense.

THAT'S the reality for me, mine and 47 MILLION others of us without "health insurance" in your wild-west, capitalist fucking paradise.

This is great place to be RICH and your FUCKED if you're not...

At my level of income/wealth, I'd prefer Cuba...

[IsItJustMe]

112. Your wrong, but it sounds good.

I feel off a roof and was refused by two hospitals for admitance because I had no health insurance. But you my friend, have been fortunate enough to live the good life. Good on you. It's not the fairy land tail that you believe exists out their. You just havent had to experience it yet.

[JNelson6563]

120. One point

If you have Medicaid you get great treatment. Same doctors same nurses as us rich insured people. Can't refuse service.

Sure, if you have an emergency situation and go to a hospital, you will get service. Try to get into a doctor's office with Medicaid. If you are not an established patient you are SOL.

Julie

[Pavulon]

141. Medicaid

pays better schedules than most insurance plans. My wife deals with both. She sees and treats people with trauma and referrals.

[Warren Stupidity]

148. Oh that was difficult to refute (not)

"Objective. To compare the availability of timely orthopedic care to a child with a fractured arm insured by Medi-Cal (California state Medicaid) and by private insurance.

Study Design. Fifty randomly chosen offices of orthopedic surgeons were telephoned with the following scenario: "My 10-year-old son broke his arm last week during a vacation" followed by a request for an appointment that week. Each office was called twice with an identical script except for insurance status: once with Medi-Cal and once with private insurance.

Results. All 50 offices offered an appointment to see the child with private insurance within 7 days. Only 1 of the same 50 offices offered an appointment to see the child with Medi-Cal within 7 days. Of the offices that would not see a child with Medi-Cal, 87% were unable to recommend an orthopedic office that accepted Medi-Cal. "

http://www.healthcare-now.org/shownews.php?nid=394&sid=&subid

But I'm sure your wife's anecdotal evidence is superior.

Elapsed time to verify my bullshit detector: approximately 2 seconds.

[Pavulon]

155. Considering MEDICARE is per state

is an administered PER STATE means your unbiased sample is null here in NC. So enjoy your bullshit. Wife works as a surgeon in a large private hospital in Durham. Operates on Medicare, Medacaid, and insured people with the same standards.

Want your gallbladder yanked out congratulations you can get this done in a neat and tidy way, Medicare and Medicaid both pay for this common procedure to be done with lap. The state does not require those without private insurance get the open procedure.

Insurance is fucked up. Medicare is fucked up, hospital care systems are fucked up but it still beats state run medicine hands down.

People don't fly to Duke from all over the world to catch a ballgame and visit scenic Durham. You want some broken bit removed through a keyhole and not get split open like a holiday turkey? This old method has become standard in the US.

Automation of this is being driven hard here.

You know how they say never say never, there will never be a functional fair (equal) system for health care. The UK model still allows preferential treatment.

I have had this discussion for 10 years with people who actually work in the field. Over 10 years it goes from bright eyed optimism to realist.

Just my opinion. This should not be a political thing.

Insuring the uninsured is the problem, not screwing up the best medical system in the world with government intervention.

Fix insurance.

[ProudDad]

231. HR 676

John Conyers. Medicare for all!!!

http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_hr676_2.htm

[EstoniaKat]

181. Get hit by the clue stick

However, I don't expect people like yourself to know what they're talking about.



Yes, because your grasp of socialism-communism is obviously better living in the United States and reading books than those that have actually lived in those systems. :eyes:



Countries on a communist path (aka socialist countries) are 1000% better than capitalist countries.



Hmm, since I live in a former "socialist" country, I will tell you a little story.

Remember the 1980 Olympics? The one that Americans boycotted because of the USSR's invasion of Afghanistan? That was the first time I had a Coca-Cola and a banana.

They were non-existent in the Socialist Paradise. But the Politburo didn't want to look too backwards, so they let shipment of foodstuffs in from Finland.

This was a time where you had to get basic milk by coupon. We used to game the system, since those with children could get extra milk by having a child (my mother would take me to the store, buy milk, and then my mother would bring my birth certificate separately to get more).

That's all changed. Why? Because our former prime minister, Mart Laar, took one of Milton Friedman's books and instituted them. A flat tax. Massive privatization.

About 17 years later, I have all the milk, bananas, and Coca-Cola that I want. My wages have increased by 20% in the last year. My country's GDP is growing at about an 8% rate -- a year. Unemployment has dropped to about 2%. For a lot of physical-type jobs, you can't find workers.

I weep for those in Venezuela who are about to undergo what Zimbabwe is going through. And I cry for those, like you, that are the little helpers of totalitarian systems.

I know what 1000% improvement is like. And it's not the road that you are advocating.

[Judi Lynn]

184. Ah, the celebrated Milton Friedman touch. My goodness. Worked well in Chile, didn't it?

Allow me to paste a few remarks here on that exciting era in human history. What a triumph:

Eye of the Hurricane: Milton Friedman and the Global South
by Walden Bello
November 27, 2006

While economists laud the recently deceased Milton Friedman for being “a champion of freedom whose work transformed economics and changed the world,” as a full-page advertisement in the New York Times put it, people in the South will remember the University of Chicago professor as the eye of a human hurricane that cut a swath of destruction through their economies. For them, Friedman will long be associated with two things: free-market reform in Chile and “structural adjustment” in the developing world.

Soon after the coup against the government of Salvador Allende on September 11, 1973, Chilean graduates of Friedman’s economics department, who were soon dubbed the “Chicago Boys,” took over the helm of the economy and launched a program of economic transformation with doctrinal vengeance. In light of his much-quoted assertion about political freedom going hand-in-hand with free markets, the irony that in Chile a free market paradise was being imposed with the bayonets of one of Latin America’s most bloodstained dictatorships could not have escaped the guru.

Yet Friedman visited Chile during the dictatorship, anointing the radical free-market, export-oriented thrust of the regime, praising Chilean dictator General Augusto Pinochet for his commitment to a “fully free market as a matter of principle,” and delivering talks with a title “The Fragility of Freedom” that could only be ironic in the Chilean context. Even as he accused his critics of being bent on “tarring and feathering” him with the regime’s human rights abuses, Friedman took pride in his doctrinal inspiration of what he described as the “Chilean Miracle.”

The Chilean Experiment

After his disciples were done with it, Chile was indeed radically transformed…for the worse.

Free market policies subjected the country to two major depressions twice in one decade, first in 1974-75, when GDP fell by 12 per cent, then again in 1982-83, when it dropped by 15 per cent.

Contrary to ideological expectations about free markets and robust growth, average GDP growth in the period 1974-89--the radical Jacobin phase of the Friedman-Pinochet revolution--was only 2.6 per cent, compared to over 4 per cent a year in the period 1951-71, when there was a much greater role of the state in the economy.

By the end of the radical free-market period, both poverty and inequality had increased significantly. The proportion of families living below the “line of destitution” had risen from 12 to 15 per cent between 1980 and 1990, and the percentage living below the poverty line, but above the line of destitution, had increased from 24 to 26 per cent. This meant that at the end of the Pinochet regime, some 40 per cent of Chile’s population, or 5.2 million of a population of 13 million, were poor.
(snip/...)

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11491

[Judi Lynn]

185. More on the majestic Milton Friedman, for the education of lurking freeps,

clutching their worn, ragged Fountainhead, and Atlas Shrugged books close to their heaving bosoms with pudgey little orange Cheetos-dust covered fingers. We've had them stopping by to pay homage to Milton Friedman here before, I'm sorry to say.

Milton Friedman: a study in failure
The great economist's career was full of heated controversy but achieved almost nothing of substance in setting public policy.
Richard Adams

November 16, 2006 11:40 PM

Milton Friedman, who has died aged 94, was not the most important economist of the post-war era - that title belongs to the brilliant Paul Samuelson - but he was certainly the most controversial. Yet despite his views being championed by so many politicians on the right, it may come as a surprise that Friedman's career as a policymaker largely ended in failure.

Given his status as a long-standing hate figure, the assumption by many of the left is that his agenda was cemented into place during the Reagan and Thatcher administrations in the early 1980s, especially Friedman's well-known view that inflation is solely influenced by changes in the money supply. But very few of Friedman's most cherished proposals were ever put in to practice. Of those that where - such as monetarism - almost all turned into failure.

The great irony for Friedman's fans is that the one piece of public policy he was responsible for that was widely and internationally adopted was one that greatly increased the ability of central governments to collect taxes - a policy he later repudiated in disgust.

Obituaries of Friedman will doubtlessly sing of his successes. But close examination will show them to be few, and none unalloyed. For all his high public profile - thanks to his regular column in Newsweek and series on US television, Free To Choose, which made him into something of a star - today no mainstream academic economist is a monetarist and Friedman left no lasting school of academic heirs. Even the "Chicago school" at the University of Chicago has waned in influence, eclipsed by the mighty MIT army of economists that followed Samuelson.
(snip)

Friedman also railed long and hard for school vouchers to be adopted, to little avail, and his libertarian leanings provoked him to call for recreational drugs and prostitution to be legalised. He lobbied against environmental protection and regulations of all kinds, the vast majority of which were happily ignored by his friends and enemies. Even the economic reforms in Pinochet's Chile he is said to have inspired have run into trouble.
(snip/...)

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/richard_adams/2006/11/post_650.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Friday, January 26, 2007
Milton Friedman--Liar or Lunatic?

This interview with an aging Milton Friedman is particularly instructive as to the depth of the man's mendacity, or, failing that, complete disconnect with reality.
(snip)


INTERVIEWER: In the end, the Chilean did quite well, didn't it?

MILTON FRIEDMAN: Oh, very well. Extremely well. The Chilean economy did very well, but more important, in the end the central government, the military junta, was replaced by a democratic society. So the really important thing about the Chilean business is that free markets did work their way in bringing about a free society.

As Walden Bello writes, the Chilean economy did not do well at all. One of the only reasons that the economy didn't go completely under, of course, was the state-controlled copper industry, always so integral to the Chilean economy.

Indeed, the rising poverty during the dictatorship was a major reason that Pinochet was overthrown.
(snip/)http://iamjustice.blogspot.com/2007/01/milton-friedman-liar-or-lunatic.html

[Judi Lynn]

186. Your Coca Cola story is absolutely inspirational. You know what makes life worth living.

A lot of conscious Americans have been unpleasantly aware of Coca Cola's unbelievably hideous record of human rights abuses in other countries for many years. Many of us stopped buying and drinking Coca Cola long ago.

[nick303]

188. For the high crime of uttering the name Milton Friedman

you will be sentenced to withstand a barrage of garbage rained down upon you by Judi Lynn. She has not read any of his books, nor anything of substance on the use of the flat tax in Estonia, however she HAS spent the last SEVERAL minutes on Google finding some links from obscure websites and is prepared to take you DOWN!

[Judi Lynn]

214. More on that fabulous Friedman treatment in Chile, by Greg Palast, BBC, Guardian journalist

Tinker Bell, Pinochet and The Fairy Tale Miracle of Chile
Published December 10th, 2006

~snip~
In 1973, the year General Pinochet brutally seized the government, Chile’s unemployment rate was 4.3%. In 1983, after ten years of free-market modernization, unemployment reached 22%. Real wages declined by 40% under military rule.

In 1970, 20% of Chile’s population lived in poverty. By 1990, the year “President” Pinochet left office, the number of destitute had doubled to 40%. Quite a miracle.

Pinochet did not destroy Chile’s economy all alone. It took nine years of hard work by the most brilliant minds in world academia, a gaggle of Milton Friedman’s trainees, the Chicago Boys. Under the spell of their theories, the General abolished the minimum wage, outlawed trade union bargaining rights, privatized the pension system, abolished all taxes on wealth and on business profits, slashed public employment, privatized 212 state industries and 66 banks and ran a fiscal surplus.

Freed of the dead hand of bureaucracy, taxes and union rules, the country took a giant leap forward … into bankruptcy and depression. After nine years of economics Chicago style, Chile’s industry keeled over and died. In 1982 and 1983, GDP dropped 19%. The free-market experiment was kaput, the test tubes shattered. Blood and glass littered the laboratory floor. Yet, with remarkable chutzpah, the mad scientists of Chicago declared success. In the US, President Ronald Reagan’s State Department issued a report concluding, “Chile is a casebook study in sound economic management.” Milton Friedman himself coined the phrase, “The Miracle of Chile.” Friedman’s sidekick, economist Art Laffer, preened that Pinochet’s Chile was, “a showcase of what supply-side economics can do.”

It certainly was. More exactly, Chile was a showcase of de-regulation gone berserk.

The Chicago Boys persuaded the junta that removing restrictions on the nation’s banks would free them to attract foreign capital to fund industrial expansion.

Pinochet sold off the state banks - at a 40% discount from book value - and they quickly fell into the hands of two conglomerate empires controlled by speculators Javier Vial and Manuel Cruzat. From their captive banks, Vial and Cruzat siphoned cash to buy up manufacturers - then leveraged these assets with loans from foreign investors panting to get their piece of the state giveaways.

The bank’s reserves filled with hollow securities from connected enterprises. Pinochet let the good times roll for the speculators. He was persuaded that Governments should not hinder the logic of the market.

By 1982, the pyramid finance game was up. The Vial and Cruzat “Grupos” defaulted. Industry shut down, private pensions were worthless, the currency swooned. Riots and strikes by a population too hungry and desperate to fear bullets forced Pinochet to reverse course. He booted his beloved Chicago experimentalists. Reluctantly, the General restored the minimum wage and unions’ collective bargaining rights. Pinochet, who had previously decimated government ranks, authorized a program to create 500,000 jobs.
(snip/...)

http://www.gregpalast.com/tinker-bell-pinochet-and-the-fairy-tale-miracle-of-chile-2

[Judi Lynn]

215. More on Friedman's magic touch in Chile:

Eye of the Hurricane: Milton Friedman and the Global South
Walden Bello
25 November 2006

~snip~
The Chilean experiment

After his disciples were done with it, Chile was indeed radically transformed…for the worse.

Free market policies subjected the country to two major depressions twice in one decade, first in 1974-75, when GDP fell by 12 per cent, then again in 1982-83, when it dropped by 15 per cent.

Contrary to ideological expectations about free markets and robust growth, average GDP growth in the period 1974-89 -- the radical Jacobin phase of the Friedman-Pinochet revolution -- was only 2.6 per cent, compared to over four per cent a year in the period 1951-71, when there was a much greater role of the state in the economy.

By the end of the radical free-market period, both poverty and inequality had increased significantly. The proportion of families living below the “line of destitution” had risen from 12 to 15 per cent between 1980 and 1990, and the percentage living below the poverty line, but above the line of destitution, had increased from 24 to 26 per cent. This meant that at the end of the Pinochet regime, some 40 per cent of Chile’s population, or 5.2 million of a population of 13 million, were poor.

In terms of income distribution, the share of the national income going to the poorest 50 per cent of the population declined from 20.4 per cent to 16.8 per cent, while the share going to the richest ten per cent rose dramatically from 36.5 per cent to 46.8 per cent.

In terms of the structure of the economy, the combination of erratic growth and radical trade liberalization resulted in “deindustrialization in the name of efficiency and avoiding inflation,” as one economist described it, with manufacturing’s share of of GDP declining from an average of 26 per cent in the late 1960’s to 20 per cent in the late eighties. Many metalworking and related manufacturing industries went under in an export-oriented economy that favored agricultural production and resource extraction.

Mitigating Friedmanism

The radical Friedman-Pinochet phase of the Chilean economic counterrevolution came to an end in the early 1990’s, after the Concertacion came to power. In violation of classic Friedmanism, this center-left coalition increased social spending to improve Chile’s income distribution, bringing down the proportion of people living in poverty from 40 per cent to 20 per cent of the population. This modification, which increased internal purchasing power, contributed to the post-Pinochet average yearly growth rate of six per cent a year.
(snip)

Yet free-market and structural adjustment policies have been institutionalized so thoroughly that, despite their being now universally seen as dysfunctional, they continue to reign. The legacy of Milton Friedman will be with the developing world for a long time to come. Indeed, there is probably no more appropriate inscription for Friedman’s gravestone than what William Shakespeare wrote in Julius Caesar: “The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones.”
(snip/)

http://www.tni-archives.org/detail_page.phtml?&username=[e-mail]&password=9999&groups=TNI&lang=en&act_id=16003

[IndianaGreen]

27. The evil Communist Poland that had abortion rights and LGBT rights

is now the Godly Catholic Poland with no abortion rights and with officially sanctioned persecution of LGBTs.

And Russia? Your glorious capitalism has brought organized crime and created a new class of the super rich, while veterans and pensioners have seen their social safety net disappear.

We have to thank Bush for showing capitalism for the brutal greedy system that it is and, thanks to him again, he has done more for the Leftist surge across the globe than anyone could have imagined.

I assume you are a citizen of the US and enjoy the capitalist system here and(or) in europe. When you need a new organ or brain surgery be sure to head for a socialist paradise.

I'll take hopkins or cedar.

Spoken like a true elitist! Most of us can only pray we never get sick, or have a family member get sick. If they do, we can only expect to spend hours waiting in the emergency room of a hospital to get whatever care we can afford.

We are better off in a socialist society where medical decisions are made by physicians, not by accountants of an health insurance company.

[Pavulon]

38. Russia, they just swapped criminals

state sponsored to free for all.

My glorious capitalism is the reason you sit wherever you sit(provided you are not in one of the communist nations),earn a living, have heat and light in your house and function in a stable society. They are are plenty of socialist countries you can visit, pretty sure you will not be renouncing your citizenship to stay in N. Korea, Vietnam, chine, etc,

High oil prices have dome more for the animal farm mentality than anything else.

When I was in college broke as shit with no insurance I broke my arm. Went to the ER, they set it, sent me a bill. Which I took my time to pay. No jail time or refusal of treatment.

When I travel I keep insurance to get me the hell out of where I am and back here if i get sick.

Now like MOST 80+% o Americans I am insured.

The government driving medical progress, cant wait for that.

[manic expression]

40. That's an ignorant statement

Communist-led Russia was FAR better than what replaced it. Do your homework: in EVERY catagory, socialist Russia beats out capitalist Russia by leaps and bounds.

Your glorious capitalism is the reason for most of the suffering in the world, it is the reason Vietnam veterans freeze to death under bridges, it is the reason kids grow up under disgusting conditions, it is the reason workers are exploited, it is the reason we have all the problems we do.

Let me ask you a question: do you know what the ideology of North Korea is? Do you? Guess.

Vietnam and China are not socialist.

Oh, how cute, some college kid paid off a medical bill. A lot of people don't have that luxury, but it's not uncommon for people like yourself to ignore the nature of the very system they defend.

[Pavulon]

42. All communist nations

point was that I was given service.

Your Marxist rantings are amusing..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_countries#Current_2

List of places that are fun to visit but you would really enjoy leaving.

DPRK what a wonderful system for the workers, I mean just great.

[manic expression]

44. If you knew what you're talking about

you'd know that "communist nation" is an oxymoron, but you don't know what you're talking about, do you?

The point is that many, many, many people in the US do NOT get service, or live their lives in debt because of it. You can cite the experiences of college kids all day long, it doesn't help your argument one bit.

That list is pathetic and demonstrates your ignorance to the subject. Please define "socialist country", then we'll talk.

As I asked before: what is the official ideology of the DPRK? Don't ignore the question, make a guess and amuse me.

[Pavulon]

48. Socialist Nation (norcoms)

This is what state control gets you..

They are communists. It is a shithole. I feel sorry for the people who suffer under the backwards system placed on them.

They are not allowed to leave. Seems to be a trait of communist shitholes.

Berlin wall, border shootings. People flying hot air balloons to get out. Must be paradise on earth to live there.

[manic expression]

51. Give a real definition

Do you know what "definition" means? Do you? Do I have to give you a cookie in exchange for an answer or are you just being thick?

And again, I ask you, what is the ideology of North Korea? You've failed to make an attempt to answer the question, which speaks to how ludicrous and ignorant your arguments are.

If you can't answer the question, please stop talking because you're clearly clueless.

And Eastern Germany? E Germany was always a buffer state, the USSR practically stated as much openly. EVERYONE knew it wasn't designed to succeed. Again, ignorant capitalist arguments.

[Pavulon]

55. See that black hole that is a socialist nation

a horrible place that traps its people and shoots people who try to escape. Great definition.

Now there are good socialist nations but I an not going to play wordspeak with you.

[manic expression]

58. You can't ascribe a label that you haven't first defined

it's illogical and dishonest to do so.

You're playing "spout reactionary crap and hope the other person doesn't notice" with me.

[Pavulon]

62. You advocate your Ideas

I advocate mine. I will not play games with you. hit wiki or dictionary.com.

Better yet define why no 1st world communist nation exists, none sit on the g8.

Reality is what it is.

[manic expression]

65. First of all

the singular point you've made is that you just don't like communist-led rule. Beyond that (as in reasons), you've given few arguments.

Why does no first world communist nation exist? First, "communist nation" is a condradictory term, and cannot logically exist (as I've stated more than once to you); second, socialist nations have been under siege from capitalist nations. With work, we can overthrow capitalism in all countries, making "1st world" and "3rd world" a thing of the past.

By the way, Cubans DO have better living conditions than great swathes of the American public. Also, the Soviet Union was FAR better for Russia and Ukraine than the capitalism which has replaced it. It's obvious that socialism is the better choice.

[Pavulon]

66. Good luck with your revolution..

have a nice day.

[ProudDad]

68. I've tried to reason with pavulon

before.

His main problem appears to be that it took way too long for his family to get a telephone in India before he emigrated. He hates anything that calls itself "Socialist".

Rational discussion with our friend, Pavulon is impossible...

[manic expression]

69. Yeah that definitely seems to be the case n/t

[Pavulon]

70. You have me confused

I am not from India. Have been there many times. India is a "socialist state"..

You call this guys discourse rational?

[ProudDad]

79. Sorry, where are you from?

And why are you so irrational about "Socialism"?

It sounds like you have some personal animus against the thought of a caring, sharing society...

[Pavulon]

82. I like western european socialisim..

it is great, stable and fair. Taxes are a bit steep in th EU but it as a functional system, communism on the other hand, not so much. Central party control and such don't work for me. Land seizure and Stalinist systems are terrible.

I live in NC.

[ProudDad]

114. Except for location

there's not a lot of difference between Sweden and Cuba...

[Pavulon]

139. A few

summary executions, control of political speech and personal movement. People don't defect from Sweden.

[ProudDad]

219. Wrong again friend

summary executions are the way of life in Texas, not Cuba.

Personal Movement, I can't go to Cuba without risking imprisonment and fine, they can't come here without being threatened with special immigrant status and economic favors.

People do defect from Sweden -- they come here in order to avoid paying their fair share at home...

[otherlander]

151. Wow...

I never realized that one of the properties of a black hole is that it redistributes wealth.

Did anyone else here realize that? :crazy:

[Pavulon]

158. I like electricity

the communists in north korea are having trouble with generating it..Food, not getting shot trying to escape to china, all things I enjoy.

But the wonderful world of communism is the answer to the horrible lives we live.

[gorbal]

54. Hey that's my country you are talking about.

This is what state control gets you..

They are communists. It is a shithole. I feel sorry for the people who suffer under the backwards system placed on them.

They are not allowed to leave. Seems to be a trait of communist shitholes.

Stop dissing the US.:(

[Pavulon]

59. Gee

No one shot me when I left for Denmark a few weeks ago.

I get to vote in 08. Those in the DPRK do not.

[ProudDad]

220. What's YOUR hangup with KPRK

I don't like their right-wing dictatorship masquerading as a phony form of "Communism" at all.

North Korea (or South Korea for that matter) are LOUSY examples fr humanity to follow. No one on DU has suggested that we emulate them.

I prefer the Venezuelan Socialist models...

[nick303]

89. You can't make a finite resource infinite

Health care is one such resource. I (as would most) choose capitalism as the best means of distributing it.

[manic expression]

92. But you can distribute it evenly

I never said anything was infinite, but the question is not how much you have, the question is how you USE it.

Cuba uses the resource of healthcare in such a way that all people have access to it. Furthermore, it puts resources into training doctors instead of buying bombs to be used for capitalistic wars. Socialism makes that resource something that all people enjoy to the fullest extent.

Capitalism distributes healthcare, just like everything else of value, to the wealthy. The poor do not have access to healthcare, and if they try to get treated they spend decades, or even lifetimes, in debt. So it's "best" for the rich, "worst" for the poor. Socialism makes it "best" all around.

[nick303]

93. That works in theory

It doesn't work in real life. I can't believe a (presumably) grown adult is trying to argue as much. You can try to talk about theory all you want, but it's a (cruel) joke to try to use Cuba and Russia as examples of what health care should be.

(Gets ready to duck from the hail of links to disreputable websites about to be thrown at him).

[manic expression]

95. It works in reality

What evidence do you have to say that it doesn't work in real life? In REAL LIFE, Cubans enjoy a better infant mortality rate than the US; in real life, Cuba has healthcare which rivals the first world and blows the rest of the third world out of the water.

Moreover, the USSR did give people good healthcare, no questions asked. Today, there are QUITE a bit of questions.

I can't believe a (presumably) sentient being would argue against the FACT that socialism provides excellent healthcare equally. Oh, and it IS a fact. Please provide some counterevidence, because right now you are woefully in need of a valid argument.

[nick303]

102. Cuba also has one of the highest abortion rates in the world

so if you'd like to cherry pick a statistic to benchmark health care quality, you'd probably be better of choosing another one.

I'm not the one woefully in need of an argument. Unsupported assertions combined with a rude, condescending attitude are not an argument. Reading your posts reminds me of reading a math proof where someone writes "Clearly, this is true" without further explanation.

[manic expression]

104. Cubans are sexually active

and the government has no problem with women having sexual freedom, so that's not really news and it has nothing to do with the issue.

That Cuba has world class medical care is an indisputable fact. Ask ANYONE who knows ANYTHING about the subject and they'll tell you the same. I had a lengthy discussion with a Latin American studies professor, and he agreed that Cuba's healthcare is second to none.

Furthermore, statistics such as infant mortality show how good the medical system is.

You want sources? Too easy:

http://www.studentbmj.com/issues/03/05/life/162.php
http://www.guardianabroad.co.uk/health/article/208
http://www.radford.edu/~junnever/law/cuba.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/5232628.stm

[nick303]

107. That's unfortunate

I had a feeling you would try to reframe what I said as being anti-choice in some manner. That's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is that if you selectively abort 1/3 of your population you are highly likely to have a lower mortality rate!

[manic expression]

108. That makes no sense

fetuses aren't aborted because they're weak or anything like that; they're aborted because their mothers want to have an abortion. It has no relevance to infant mortality.

Please address the rest of my previous post.

[nick303]

110. Umm, except that sometimes they are?

Have you ever dealt with any of these issues? Most women I know who are sexually active that don't want to get pregnant use birth control, condoms, or a combination thereof. Not doing so and then waiting to get an abortion is neither cost-effective nor the least stressful. Yes, sometimes even that fails, but over 30%? Something isn't right with that picture.

[manic expression]

111. First of all

provide a source which supports your claim. So far, you have nothing to back yourself up.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Cuban government aborts fetuses to pad its infant mortality rate? You have to be kidding me.

Honestly, provide a reliable source and then we'll talk. Right now, you're just pouring crap out of your mouth.

In case you cared (which I doubt), Cuban sexual education is very good and starts earlier than in the US. Think about that.

[nick303]

149. Where do I begin?

For the request about the abortion rate, you can look pretty much anywhere, that Cuba is among the highest in the world is not disputed.

This will work, but you can choose your source really.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/25s3099.html

I never said the Cuban government aborts fetuses. You made that up. I never said sexual education is good or bad in Cuba. You brought that in as a distraction.

Your overall debating strategy is weak. Looks like you got a straw man and a distraction in this post. In general you repeatedly badger people to "define" terms which are commonly understood, or you simply refuse to see someone's point since it would mean accepting defeat.

[manic expression]

153. You haven't as of yet

Let's recap: you said that there is a high rate of abortion in Cuba; I said that this was because Cubans are sexually active and their government has no problem with abortions. Next, you then tried to connect abortion rates with infant mortality rates, which makes no sense at all. I asked you if you were suggesting something, and you accuse me of making strawmen, which makes even less sense.

The point here is that you haven't clarified your argument one bit, so please do so.

In short: what the hell are you trying to say?

[nick303]

157. A fine example of your last tactic

Refusing to see someone's point since doing so would lead to your demise. We can call it the "brick wall" strategy.

The straw man was when you claimed that I said the Cuban government was aborting fetuses, and then attacked that argument, which I never made in the first place. It makes perfect sense.

Since you seem to have trouble with English and semantics I will restate this using formal logic.

Premises:
P1 = Cuba's very low infant mortality rate can be credited to its excellent health care system.
P2 = Cuba has a very high abortion rate.
P3 = Abortion is the cheapest/least stressful method of preventing unwanted pregnancies.
P4 = Abortion is the primary method of preventing unwanted pregnancies.
P5 = Parents are deciding to selectively abort for health reasons. (Mother's health/high probability of birth defects)
P6 = If it is not the cheapest/least stressful method, abortion will not be the primary method of preventing unwanted pregnancies.
P7 = If abortion is NOT the preferred method of preventing unwanted pregnancies AND Cuba has a very high abortion rate, then parents in Cuba are deciding to selectively abort for health-related reasons.
P8 = If parents are selectively aborting for health reasons, then its low infant mortality rate can't be credited to its excellent health care system.
==
Proof
1: P3 is false => P4 is false (by P6)
2: P2 is true && P4 is false => P5 is true (by P7)
3: P5 is true => P1 is false (by P8)
C: The notion that "Cuba's very low infant mortality rate can be credited to its excellent health care system" is false.

[manic expression]

169. Typical

instead of making sound arguments, you make illogical claims and then state that I'm making strawmen, when in reality your points simply make no sense. Basically, don't blame someone else when you fail to clarify your point.

According to you, the Cuban abortion rate automatically means that Cuban parents are aborting fetuses because they are at risk (since it isn't the cheapest or least stressful method). You then conclude that this decreases the excellence of Cuba's health system. You are making many mistakes here. First, allow me to address your statements directly before looking at the bigger picture. The abortion rate alone does not mean Cuban parents are aborting due to health reasons, there is no evidence to support this. Second, EVEN IF fetuses are aborted because they are at risk, that does not decrease the excellence of Cuba's medical system. Why? To identify fetuses which are at risk and to allow parents to make a decision based on those findings is NOT a negative policy from any perspective. Even if this is happening in the first place (which has ONLY been asserted, not proven), it does not reflect badly on the Cuban medical system whatsoever.

However, when we look closer at the actual situation, we see more of the story (which you ignored):

"In Cuba, the abortion rate rose in the late 1980s with the introduction of menstrual regulation."
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2504499.html

What is menstrual regulation?

Well, according to this source, it is a procedure in which "...there may not be an actual pregnancy to terminate..." (read the link, it's short and it explains it concisely).
http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/ECE2/html/menstrual_regulation.html

It is practically impossible for anyone to know the risk of a pregnancy before this procedure is carried out; in reality, the high abortion rate in Cuba is a result of a procedure which has NOTHING to do with the health/risk of a fetus. Therefore, your statement is utterly false.

Answer the question directly: would you agree that a low infant mortality rate is a sign of a good medical system?

[INDIA]

56. "in EVERY catagory, socialist Russia beats out capitalist Russia by leaps and bounds."

I'm not defending present day Russia, which is very flawed, but I'd prefer to live in the gulag free present day than the glorious worker's paradise of the past.

[manic expression]

60. Do you even know when the gulag system was shut down?

It was shut down LONG before the collapse of the Soviet Union (as in decades), look it up. Furthermore, the gulags were just an upgrade of what the Czars already had there, so it wasn't a new fad by any means (and is little different than what capitalist countries, such as the US, have done in the past and in the present).

Was that your only objection?

[Pavulon]

63. Between 10 and 20 million dead, I object ...(nt)

Regardless, it appears that a minimum of around 10 million surplus deaths (4 million by repression and 6 million from famine) are attributable to the regime, with a number of recent books suggesting a probable figure of somewhere between 15 to 20 million. Adding 6-8 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a figure of between 15 and 17 million victims. Pioneering researcher Robert Conquest,<30> meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million. Others, however, continue to maintain that their earlier much higher estimates are correct.

[manic expression]

67. You object but you sure can't justify it

Those statistics are suspect, at best. The fact is that famine took the vast majority of those deaths, and the fact is that those famines were not the fault of the Soviets.

The Ukrainian harvest was very lackluster in the early 30's, with weather being a big factor. Furthermore, the Kulaks were sabatoging the production of food, even going as far as to burn grain outright. The Soviet tried to deal with the shortage of food and distributed it as best as they could, which did ensure the survival of most of those in the cities; however, the famine was almost unavoidable at that point due to weather and Kulak sabatoge.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

77. Mad sources...

http://freedomspeace.blogspot.com/2005/04/how-many-did-stalin-really-murder.html

I have tons, cant kill 20 million people without someone noticing.

[manic expression]

80. And you can't deny the truth without someone noticing

The 20 million statistic is in denial of the reality of the USSR during that time.

Oh, and do you want to actually address what I wrote about the famines or do you want to persist in your cluelessness?

[Pavulon]

142. The sources address it, stalin was a killer on the order of hitler, on a slow day

[manic expression]

177. The mistaken sources address it

sources which are insipid enough to include a famine caused by weather.

So, again, you're incorrect.

[Pavulon]

189. Ok I'll take the word of the person who is from Ukraine

over yours. Have a nice day, enjoy your revolution.

[manic expression]

194. You should take the word of the facts

coupled with the FACT that Ukrainians and Russians are actually beginning to heavily support their Communist Parties in elections.

[Pavulon]

216. Wake me up

when they build a new iron curtain. Until then "we buried you", the irony is striking.

[TankLV]

167. BULLSHIT. This PROVES you don't know what you're talkin about.

During most of the YEARS of the RUSSIAN forced STARVATION, the Ukraine had some of the best years of record harvests! What you are spouting is 180 degrees opposite of what actually happened.

I am Ukrainian. 100%. Try talking to a Ukrainian who lived thru it - my relatives did.

I call BULLSHIT - LOUDLY!

STOP LYING!

The Soviet thugs effectively cordoned off the farms from the Ukrainians and they watched from the fenced off fields of plenty AT GUNPOINT while the harvests were sent to "mother russia" - just like all colonial empire do.

And, "kulaks" is a derrogatory term like "nigger" - which proves you know nothing about what you are talking about.

Next I suppose you're going to call me a "uniate" catholic, instead of the proper term "Ukrainain Catholic" - which your hero russian criminals forcably persecuted...

[manic expression]

179. On the contrary

the facts support my statements.

"Some scholars also claim that the weather conditions played a substantial role in the famine<29> Russia and parts of Ukraine suffered from fairly regular droughts, which significantly reduced crop yields. The fluctuations in the annual level of temperature and rainfall on the territory of the USSR are greater than in major grain-producing areas elsewhere in the world. The weather pattern is highly continental, and is complicated by the frequent and irregular dry winds which blow from Central Asia across the Volga region, North Caucuses, and Ukraine in the growing months of late spring and early summer. Moreover, the critical insufficiency of humidity makes a large territory particularly susceptible to drought, resulting in high temperatures and low rainfall. The weather was largely responsible for the above-average yield over the whole five years 1909-13. In 1925-29 the weather was only slightly worse than average. But in 1930-34 the weather was poorer than usual over the five years, with particularly bad conditions in 1931 and 1932. This was a factor over which the Soviet government had no immediate control.<30>"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

By the way, those statements are cited (as in supported by research).

Another fun fact:

"Some historians maintain, however, that the famine was an unintentional consequence of collectivization, and that the associated resistance to it by the Ukrainian peasantry exacerbated an already-poor harvest.<52> The researchers state that while the term Ukrainian Genocide is often used in application to the event, technically, the use of the term "genocide" is inapplicable.<5>"

Another cited statement.

And no, "kulak" originally referred to wealthy farmers; it came to mean people who opposed collectivization. My use of it is reasonable.

[IndianaGreen]

84. It was the anti-Semitic William Randolph Hearst that created the 20 million figure

right out of thin air! Over the years, that number has ballooned as high as 60 million, depending on the rightwing source.

[Pavulon]

86. Wiki stalin

lots of sources, millions of deaths. You here to defend that system too?

Number of victims

Early researchers of the number killed by Stalin's regime were forced to rely largely upon anecdotal evidence, and their estimates range from a low of 3 million to as high as 60 million.<15><25> But with the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, evidence from the Soviet archives finally became available. The government archives record that about 800,000 prisoners were executed (for either political or criminal offences) under Stalin, while another 1.7 million died of privation or other causes in the Gulags and some 389,000 perished during kulak resettlement - a total of about 3 million victims.

Debate continues however<16>, since some historians believe the archival figures to be unreliable.<26> Also, it is generally agreed that the data are incomplete, since some categories of victim were carelessly recorded by the Soviets - such as the victims of ethnic deportations, or of German population transfer in the aftermath of WWII.

Thus, while some archival researchers have posited the number of victims of Stalin's repressions to be no more than about 4 million in total <17><18><19>, others believe the number to be considerably higher. Russian writer Vadim Erlikman,<27> for example, has made the following estimations: Executions 1.5 million, Gulag 5 million, Deportations 1.7 million (out of 7.5 million deported), and POW's and German civilians 1 million, for a total of about 9 million victims of repression.

Some have also included the 6 to 8 million victims of the 1932-33 famine.<20><28><29> In this case, historians differ as to whether the famine was deliberate - as part of the campaign of repression against kulaks - or simply an unintended consequence of the struggle over forced collectivization. (See also: Holodomor).

Regardless, it appears that a minimum of around 10 million surplus deaths (4 million by repression and 6 million from famine) are attributable to the regime, with a number of recent books suggesting a probable figure of somewhere between 15 to 20 million. Adding 6-8 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a figure of between 15 and 17 million victims. Pioneering researcher Robert Conquest,<30> meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million. Others, however, continue to maintain that their earlier much higher estimates are correct.[31

[IndianaGreen]

88. Has it occurred to you why wikipedia cannot be used as a source in college?

You are a smart person, figure it out!

[Pavulon]

94. It sources university resources, you figure it out. he killed millions

[TankLV]

168. 6 million, 9 million - 20 million - it was at least 6-9 million.

and it is a fact.

Indiana - I'm surprised at you...I usually look forward to your posts, but on this your are GROSSLY mistaken.

Talk to a Ukrainian - read the books - it's all there to see...

[INDIA]

73. You're defending the indefensible.

I doubt the czars had anywhere close the body count of the USSR. Feel free to prove me wrong though.

Other objections:
No freedom to leave the country. (Or travel within the country for that matter.)
No freedom of press.
No democracy. (I like voting, sorry if that offends you.)
No ability to gain personal wealth.
Zero respect for human life.
No freedom of religion.
Bread lines.
Shoddy state control of just about everything. (Chernobyl?)
Support of N. Korea, a state that deserved to fail.

That's just off the top of my head. And in anticipation of your counter-point, yes I realize that present day Russia doesn't exactly have perfect democracy or freedom of the press, but it is still a vast improvement over a failed state implementing a failed ideology.

[manic expression]

78. I'm using facts

You're using common misconceptions.

And please, the penal system of the Czars was quite extensive.

People were allowed to leave the Soviet Union, but they weren't allowed to emigrate for no reason (as in many countries); in fact, my former cello teacher DID emigrate from the Soviet Union, as did many others. There was no "freedom of the press" for reactionaries and people who sought to revert back to capitalism, which was a good thing (and that much has been proven). The party did become cut off from the workers after awhile, but the Soviets were the epitome of democracy until 1928 (when Stalin came in). The ability to gain personal wealth means the ability to exploit and deprive, that has no place in a socialist society. There was a great respect for human life, as housing was accessible to all and healthcare was good, etc.... The Orthodox Church had screwed over the Russian people for centuries, of course there would be such a reaction. People waited in lines for things, but they GOT THEM; that's better than not having the money to buy all the things in the store windows. The US almost had a Chernobyl at Three Mile Island, what's your point? The USSR didn't support N Korea after the Sino-Soviet split (have you educated yourself AT ALL about these things?).

That, also, is just off the top of my head.

Communism is an ideology that has been shown to be better than capitalism, and Russia is but one shining example of this fact.

[Robb]

122. "People waited in lines for things, but they GOT THEM"

:rofl:

Sorry. That one just cracked me up. :)

It's too bad so many kids these days don't travel. It's really the best education.

[IndianaGreen]

85. Americans are not allowed to travel to Cuba, and those that do are punished

Freedom of the press? In America? You got to be kidding! The only freedom is for the corporations to express their ideology freely through the news media that they own.

No democracy. Very true of America, the stolen elections and voter disenfranchisement we have seen in 2000 and 2004 is evidence of that. Add to that an electoral system that is designed to prevent minor political parties to get on the ballot.

Your points are laughable when compared to the shitty government we have in America. They apply better to the US than to the USSR.

America: land of torture, rendition, secret courts, warrantless searches, and concentration camps. Guantanamo is part of Bush's gulag, in case you haven't noticed.

[INDIA]

96. Nothing sickens me more than the anti-american...

...drama queens who MUST frantically insist that the US is always the most evil, most oppressive country whenever criticism is directed anywhere else, even the friggin Soviet Union. The friggin SOVIET UNION for gods sakes! "Oh noes! We're the worst evil Amreikka, how dare you criticize anybody else! We're the most evil. I hate America!!" Give me a friggin break.

I'm criticizing the former USSR, focusing on the regime of Stalin, and you insist on throwing out FLIMSY comparisons between the two.

"Americans are not allowed to travel to Cuba, and those that do are punished"

First of all, bullshit. It's easy to get to Cuba (via Canada) and Americans are rarely (if ever) punished. Yet in your fantasy world this is comparable to East Germans being shot trying to cross the Berlin Wall. Pathetic comparison.

"No democracy. Very true of America, the stolen elections and voter disenfranchisement we have seen in 2000 and 2004 is evidence of that."

I guess we'll just ignore those 2006 midterm elections that we rocked, and the fact that we run congress. Oh, and there was a successful two term Dem in office during the 90's. But nope, no democracy here. You really got me there Indiana. If we ever lose an election, it must have been stolen by some absurd conspiracy. Fantasy world.

"Add to that an electoral system that is designed to prevent minor political parties to get on the ballot."

I don't know what this has to do with the Soviet Union since only one party is permitted, but in recent elections, (namely 1992 and 2000) third parties have had HUGE impacts on presidential elections.

"America: land of torture, rendition, secret courts, warrantless searches, and concentration camps."

Yes, I'm not comfortable with many of the changes since 9-11, but to compare them to the USSR, and especially STALIN IS A JOKE. It's like comparing my two year little league career to Barry Bonds. You would probably say, "But you both played baseball!!!"

"Guantanamo is part of Bush's gulag, in case you haven't noticed."

Really? A GULAG? I'm no fan of Guantanamo either, but other than a few suicides, there have been no deaths, and no Americans detained there. YOU SERIOUSLY THINK THIS IS COMPARABLE TO STALIN'S GULAGS????? Where maybe MILLIONS of Russians were worked to death or murdered?? Do we live on the same planet?

You are anti-military, anti-american, a hypocrite, and apparently, a socialist/communist. Fringe fantasy dwellers like yourself give the left a bad name. Middle of the road Dems like myself are dragged across the coals here for criticizing the Soviet Union? Good lord.

[ProudDad]

113. From your post

"You are anti-military, anti-american, a hypocrite, and apparently, a socialist/communist. Fringe fantasy dwellers like yourself give the left a bad name. Middle of the road Dems like myself are dragged across the coals here for criticizing the Soviet Union? Good lord."

A little over the top dont'cha think?

[INDIA]

119. With this poster? No, not at all. n/t

[Hunky Dunky]

123. Great Post

I too, have noticed the tendency you describe. I call them "yeah, but" posts. It seems that often times, whenever a legitimate criticism is made about any non-U.S. entity, there will be a non-sequitir response to the effect of "yeah, but the U.S. is worse" or "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones," etc.

You can criticize Hitler or North Korea, and chances are you'll still get a "yeah, but.." LOL!

[INDIA]

127. Thanks! And welcome to DU! n/t

[ProudDad]

218. You obviously haven't been here long enough

to know what we have said.

Try to stick around a while before you make these unsubstantiated broad generalizations...


In the spirit of friendship and in the interest of your education; NO ONE ON THIS BOARD HAS EVER lauded Hitler or North Korea or held them up as models of "democracy" that we should emulate. Got it? Good...

:hi:

[EstoniaKat]

182. What you said

Those who defend the USSR and Stalin are the worst of the fellow travelers.

But hey, you've got to break some eggs to create a socialist paradise. Right, comrade, right?

[EstoniaKat]

183. Your lack of education is embarrasing

Actually, the gulag system lasted until the late 80s.

And that's a fact.

[manic expression]

197. This is a fact

"The human cost of the Gulag, the Soviet labor camp system in which millions of people were imprisoned between 1920 and 1956, was staggering."

http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=0300092849

What were you saying?

[TankLV]

165. Wow - just wow!

What's truly sad is that you believe what you're saying...

Just amazingly ignorant...

[Warren Stupidity]

31. Yeah Norway is a stalinist nightmare.

Sweden too. In fact the mixed economies of all of western europe have resulted in high living standards, excellent healthcare systems, universal access to higher education, social security from birth to death. Yes indeed, socialism and democracy just don't mix well. Best we kill Chavez before Venezuelans get any more of that dreaded socialism.

[Psephos]

33. The irony is, as you noticed, sublime.

Heh heh, you ran straight into the burning house on this one.

Can't wait to hear the names you will be called. Seriously, I wonder why it is that ideology causes anger when confronted with a different point of view.... Heterogeneity is far superior to monoculture when it comes to both farming and the evaluation of ideas.

Peace.

[eridani]

98. Nonsense. How do you explain Jonas Salk?

http://www.sandiegohistory.org/bio/salk/salk.htm

When news of the discovery was made public on April 12, 1955, Salk was hailed as a miracle worker. He further endeared himself to the public by refusing to patent the vaccine. He had no desire to profit personally from the discovery, but merely wished to see the vaccine disseminated as widely as possible.

[carla]

115. Which form of excellence

are you thinking of? Wolfowitzian? Rumsfeldian? Gatesian? Halliburtonist? "Excellence" is an empty term as far as capitalism is concerned, it does put food on the table but it certainly hasn't made America number 1 in anything worthwhile. "Big consumption" is the term, and it isn't about quality or excellence or intelligence or betterment of the human condition. Capitalism is an economic system that carries no worthwhile moral message. It is rapacious and effective, but an effective rape isn't anything other than rape. As for getting a new organ, perhaps you should retune your brain and stop playing that old Wurlitzer? Capitalism is for losers like Bush and the rest of his criminal lot. Socialism isn't necessarily anti-human, and it also isn't a panacea for all our ills, but it puts human and planetary survival front and center...that's the issue and you'd do well to enter the 21st century instead of accepting the 19th as the only way to go.

Ayn Rand is dead and buried, so is capitalism...

[Imperialism Inc.]

135. "The potential to earn wealth drives competition and excellence."

That and a massive influx of public dollars in every major area of research. From trains and planes to medicine and bio-engineering.

It is a nice fantasy though.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

176. I've competed and I'm excellent. And society says I'm a loser.

And I've failed. The middle class is destroyed. I went to school, worked hard, studied and earned three degrees. I have an AA a BA and a doctorate. The AA was vocational, and the only career I had. The BA and the JD are from expensive, exclusive private schools.

I am unemployed and have been unable to get a job of any consequence, or anything even remotely interesting since the mid 1990s. That's when I was burned out on my vocational job, and I was burned out before I was forty.

College is a cruel joke and I cringe every time I heard some ass on TV say that the answer to America's unemployment problem is "go back to school so you can get a better job"!!!!
GRRR!!

Dammit, 12 years of grade school and 12 years of college, and I am unemployable???
That's 24 years which is almost half my life so far.

[IndianaGreen]

24. Latin American Tours: Bush v. Chavez (BBC map)

Here is the map of the Latin American tours by the Apostle of Evil, Bush, and the Apostle of Good, Chavez. This has been quite an interesting duel, grossly underreported by the rightwing megaphone that is the American press.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6438753.stm

[EFerrari]

30. Lovin' it! Thanks for the map.

:toast:

[Mudoria]

34. The apostle of good??

:rofl:

[IndianaGreen]

83. Yes, and Bush is the Son of Satan

and the biggest mass murderer of the 21st century!

[happydreams]

35. K&R! Viva Chavez!

I like clear distinctions when they can be made. Capitalism is now proving to be America's road to hell, while Chavez's democratic socialism is giving the
Venezuelans hope and the world an alternative to neo-liberalism.

[gorbal]

53. Sometimes I wonder if a Democrat was in power...

If things would be different. I remember having some socialist friends that told me, in the election of 2000, to look at the big picture, and that Bush's being in power would cause the world to rise up against imperialism, and so it wasn't all as bad as it seemed.

(Of course they didn't know that George was going to go completely insane and attack a country we aren't at war with. But they were right about the first part.)

[ProudDad]

74. I don't think there would be much difference

Have you heard the bloodthirsty Dems climbing on the anti-Chavez bandwagon lately?

Any form of viable Socialism is anathema to ALL of the capitalist class...

[eridani]

100. Socialists have been saying that ever since 1972

Electoral politics? Fuggedaboudit! Just wait for things to get bad enough and people will take to the streets. Hey, how's that been working out for us for the last 45 years, ? :sarcasm:

[ProudDad]

132. Electoral politics in the U.S.

is a dead end rigged deck (to mix metaphors)...

The Amerikan Empire is dying. Right now, we're looking southward for the salvation of the race. That's where the models are being developed that will save your asses after your capitalist friend totally fuck up the North...

[goforit]

57. See the foriegn film-Oscar winning "Of Other Lives"...Socialism at its best.

[ProudDad]

76. Yeah Right

:sarcasm:


What you meant to mention are the USA PATRIOT act and the MILITARY COMMISSIONS ACT, right? High points of Capitalism...




(for those of you who don't know about this movie: http://imdb.com/title/tt0405094/ -- Our right-wing DU'er friend was trying to equate the worst of East German Stasi activity with Hugo Chavez)

[EFerrari]

116. I'm watching a CSPAN broadcast of Chavez demolishing

Bush's comparison of Washington and Bolivar.

Thousands of people.

[Unvanguard]

90. "ploughing into"

Interesting choice of words.... :eyes:

Honestly, how stupid do they think we are?

[burrowowl]

117. Go HUGO!

He knows his history!
Go to C-Span and the difference between George Washington and Simon Bolivar!
Y VIVA PANCHO VILLA AND DOWN WITH PERSHING AND T.ROOSEVELT(read some Gore Vidal: novel Emprire for example!).
Go HUGO!
And what about Guatemala, besides RayGun killing 200,000 at least Native Guatemaleans and 1956 wherein the U$ of A killed democracy in Guatemala and created 'Banana Republics'.'
Go READ DUers! A Peoples History of the United States, Howard Zinn!
and e-mail me if you want some bad shit on the U$ of A, like the dirt on Guatemala and U$ Smelter and Refining.
Go HUGO!

[ProudDad]

223. You BET he knows his history

Hugo Chavez reads more (substantive) books in a week than the shrub has in his whole misbegotten life...

[0007]

131. My hat is off to Hugo Chavez .........

[Megahurtz]

133. Capitalism IS Hell.

I hate it.

[redqueen]

136. Hehehehe... LOVE IT!

:7

[Dave From Canada]

138. I'm no fan of Bush or Chavez. They're the same kind of person. They rule from the book of fear.

I have never understood what some Americans see in Hugo Chavez. Maybe residing in Canada allows me to see from a different perspective. But I wouldn't cross the street to piss on either of them if they were on fire. Just my opinion.

[Hunky Dunky]

144. We're with ya, Canuck

You are spot on. Chavez and * are basically the same person. My guess is that the vast majority of Democrats and DU'ers are more interested in Democracy than communisim, or socialism. The Chavez lovers are very vocal, but they are a minority. And they will become less vocal as they find it harder and harder to defend his actions. Give it some time and see!

[Dave From Canada]

175. I'm glad at least some people aren't fooled by Chavez.

I saw a recent interview with a former Canadian MP from our Liberal party. Part of her job was to oversee and observe elections around the world. She became well-known in Canada for stomping on a George W Bush doll. Anyways, She said that to call Venezuela a democracy was a joke, and that the elections there are beyond corrupt. That's when my opinion of Mr. Chavez changed. well, that and his recent rule by decree. I'm pretty confident that Chavez will be President of Venezuelz for decades to come.

[Pavulon]

192. Long term view

What escapes some people is that when a democratic president is in office this person will still be a problem. The he hates bush so he is cool or cult of che crowd miss that point.

[ProudDad]

224. Welcome, northern freeper

By ANY actual, factual determination and opinion, the elections in Venezuela were among the fairest in the world:

http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1801.html

Equating a leader who is genuinely of, by and for the people with that piece of slime in the (aptly named) White House is laughable.

Go get your facts straight and don't forget to enjoy what may be a short stay... bye :crazy:

[Dave From Canada]

227. I'm sorry you feel it's necessary to call people names.

What I said is accurate. If you know anything about Canadian politics, then you know that Carolyn Parrish (the MP I spoke of) is anything close to a "freeper", nor am I. But I'm guessing you're fairly ignorant of Canadian politics. So I forgive you. I just thought I'd let you know that not everybody has a favourable opinion of Hugo Chavez and his version of "Democracy", just because he dislikes a more then deserving George W Bush.

[ProudDad]

232. I know of the Liberal Party

I question Carolyn Parrish's credentials to make any statements concerning the fairness of Venezuela's last elections.

I DO wonder at YOUR motivation for posting her unsubstantiated bloviations without including any basis for your post.

I trust the Carter Center before some anonymous Canadian Politician or you.

As for Canada and Canadians, half my grandparents came here (illegally) from Canada so I know something about the place...

[Judi Lynn]

145. As long as more people are uninformed, and too lazy to listen, and to think,

it will be easy for right-wingers to call the shots in American foreign policy. Fortunately the internet loomed into view before they had the country completely unable to esape their gluttonous, bloodthirsty clutches.

You may find this interview worth checking. It's good to attempt to crank back those memories to the days Chavez was in office BEFORE night fell on our country when the Republicans stole the White House. It's touched upon in this interview from Democracy Now:

Steve Ellner, let’s begin with you. You just came up from Venezuela last week. President Chavez gives this major anti-Bush address in Argentina and continues his shadow tour, shadowing President Bush as he travels through Latin America. When did this relationship go so bad between Venezuela and the United States?

STEVEN ELLNER: Well, Amy, let me say that Chavez had decent relations with President Clinton. Chavez was elected president in December of 1998. So Clinton was, you know, in office for two years, Chavez's first two years. And even though the United States State Department denied Chavez a visa to travel to the United States to explain his platform during the campaign in ’97-’98, when he was elected president, he did meet with Clinton twice and they had cordial relations. Even though there were some differences between the two countries, they were cordial relations.

Things started going sour after 9/11 in 2001 when Chavez criticized the bombing of Afghanistan, and the United States momentarily withdrew its ambassador in Caracas. And Colin Powell started attacking Chavez. Chavez, on the other hand, did not respond in kind. He had, you know, very moderate words for Bush and the Bush administration. He wasn’t polemical. That led into the coup against Chavez in 2002, which the United States supported and justified. And even after the coup and even after there was so much evidence of US support for the coup, to the extent that the US ambassador met with the coup leader the day after the coup, Chavez was very moderate in his language. It was only in 2003 that -- after the general strike against Chavez that lasted two months, that he started using the term “anti-imperialism,” and things quickly deteriorated after that.
(snip)

AMY GOODMAN: What about President Bush's stressing ethanol? How significant is this, making an ethanol deal in Brazil, going to talk about it in Guatemala?

GREG GRANDIN: Yeah, I think this is the substance of the tour. I think the other stuff is really just fluff, as all of a sudden Bush has concern for social justice, that he feels Latin America's pain. I mean, it’s a little -- it's kind of an anemic program that he's offering. In many ways, it's not Chavez that's shadowing Bush, it's Bush that's shadowing Chavez, in terms of these social issues, the programs that he’s offering in terms of housing and education and healthcare -- really minimal.
(snip/...)

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/12/1425231

[Jax]

146. Outstanding response Judi Lynn

"uninformed" "to lazy to listen and to think".

Spot on.

Thank you for your very good efforts here especially with Venezula and South America in general. :thumbsup:

Makes it so much easier to debunk the obvious right wing lies.

[Judi Lynn]

147. They have tried their best to bury the truth, haven't they, Jax?

With any luck at all, we can dig a lot of it right back up, in time.

As you have noticed, it takes DECADES for the information to get back to us, but we're lucky to get it at all, as determined as they have been to get away with their crimes.

[David Zephyr]

152. Bush was a uniter after all. He united the entire world against us.

And the good news is that he hurried along progressive, left and socialist governments all over the world. From Spain's Zapatero to Bolivia's Morales, George W. Bush did in six years what Karl Marx's writings ached for since the mid-1800's.

[IndianaGreen]

154. Bush has underscored what Karl Marx said about capitalism

But Bush doesn't get all the credit, he was merely the catalyst. The peoples of Latin America had their belly full of the neoliberal policies advocated by American Democratic and Republican presidents. They know what it is to suffer under conditions imposed by international bankers under the guise of economic assistance. They know what it is to see their natural resources being sold to transnational corporations in the name of free trade. They know that the War on Terror, the War on Drugs, Plan Colombia, etc., are programs designed to bolster the military and state security machinery to prevent a popular uprising against the elites that support American neoliberalism.

[Pavulon]

159. Belly full of OIL

I advocate the position of the democratic congress in the 40 years it held power. I have watched them cycle governments for many years. My interest is in the best interest of the United States. I think the current congress and next democratic president will carry that out. Chavez will remain a pain in the ass in 08 (09) when we are in power. Maybe Bolivia will fix a problem for us again?

The "proletariat" are being stoked with the opium of OIL MONEY. AMERICAN OIL MONEY. They can play class warfare all they like. As long as the nation is divided and fights laws of economics as real as gravity it will remain 3rd world. New set of handlers, same old game.

You do understand this. Right.

The Animal Farm experiment is running on our dime. When the market cycles, so will it.

This is not DLC this is common sense and decades of policy that serves the interest of the United States, that is the goal of our government.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

162. This whole thing is really getting to you isn't it?

:evilgrin:

[Pavulon]

164. Call it as I see it

It is a repeating pattern. It is fun to point that out to the commissars. A firebrand socialist in LA, there is a novel concept. Gee, I wonder how this will end?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

166. I will give you one thing. History might be on your side on this one.

After all throughout history we always have the elites and their ass kissers getting their way. It's just the way it is. Who knows? Maybe at the end of the day The Party gets its way and ends up fucking the proles (since you like Orwell references so much). You know, maybe everything goes back to "normal". Latin Americans go back to being your little servants and thanking you for the crumbs that you have so generously thrown at them.
Or this could actually be something different. Maybe people will realize that they can actually have a place at the table and decide who tell sell their resources and at what price. Maybe Latin Americans can find some unity and demand respect from the likes of you and your bosses. If there is one thing that I enjoy in life is watching over-privileged white douche bags with a sense of entitlement squirm when the little brown people start making some noise (now that is way more fun).
I'm only going to be in this little blue and green ball we call earth for a little while. But if I get to see your face and the faces of so many others like you when things don't go their way. I can die a happy man. After all history doesn't always repeat itself. .I really don't know how it's going to end but I sure would like for it not to go your way. You see this isn't about a guy in rad shirt or whatever other recycled comment you keep repeating ad nauseum. It's about a people that had enough and aren't going to take this shit anymore. I'm just calling as I see it.

[Pavulon]

170. I set up massive shops with machines

in Brazil and Venezuela. Taught people how to use new equipment and they learned quickly. They taught their peers.

Your racial overtones are insulting. I am many things but I have been around enough people to exclude race from determining "value".

Like I said as long as they peg to oil they are unstable. Brazil is a massive country, not a petro state. It has incredible people and resources. Industrial capability are making it a growing power. It still has massive poverty.

I never talk politics on business trips, in any country. But my feeling is that like us white rich people they (latin american residents) have differing opinions on politics as well.

Orwell wrote about INGSOC, prole is a reference to marx's term. Opiate of the people is marx as well. Oil money is an apt fit there.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

174. There is a racial/class element to this whole situation

whether you like it or not. After all, who has been complicit in maintaining so called US interests in that particular country if not the rich white elite? I know way too many Venezuelans to know what I'm talking about. Also my sister goes there on business at least once every 2 months and she'll tell you the same. Are you going to tell me that US policies in Latin America have not been racist and benefit the European elites? Your posts reek of colonial arrogance. That's not my fault. I find the way you talk about other countries as if the US owned them and will put them in check eventually, insulting as well (I'm sure so would people in those countries). Venezuela is a petro state, yeah no shit we get it. Yet they are investing money in other industries, the economy is growing and the infrastructure is getting better (eg the joint Vene-Brazilian bridge project). So they're taking advantage of all the oil money, well duhh. I mean you tell me they're getting all this oil money and are supposed to do what with it? The same shit they've done for 80 years before the current administration? Yeah, that really worked well. Whatever it is they're doing over there seems to tick you off. I have to wonder why.

In 1984 the proles where at the bottom of the ladder. 1-The Inner Party 2- The outer party 3- the proles or commoners. I know, I've read it twice.

BTW "Maybe Bolivia will fix a problem for us again?" What exactly does that mean?

[Judi Lynn]

178. Thanks for bringing it up. I'm curious, too. Never knew Bolivia has fixed a problem for us.

It's easy to see we have never fixed a problem for Bolivia, by god. We have supported a monster, Hugo Banzer, who made things far, far worse. Allow me to reiterate his accomplishments:

COLONEL HUGO BANZER

President of Bolivia

In 1970, in Bolivia, when then-President Juan Jose Torres nationalized Gulf Oil properties and tin mines owned by US interests, and tried to establish friendly relations with Cuba and the Soviet Union, he was playing with fire. The coup to overthrow Torres, led by US-trained officer and Gulf Oil beneficiary Hugo Banzer, had direct support from Washington. When Banzer's forces had a breakdown in radio communications, US Air Force radio was placed at their disposal. Once in power, Banzer began a reign of terror. Schools were shut down as hotbeds of political subversive activity. Within two years, 2,000 people were arrested and tortured without trial. As in Paraguay, Argentina and Brazil, the native Indians were ordered off their land and deprived of tribal identity. Tens-of-thousands of white South Africans were enticed to immigrate with promises of the land stolen from the Indians, with a goal of creating a white Bolivia. When Catholic clergy tried to aid the Indians, the regime, with CIA help, launched terrorist attacks against them, and this "Banzer Plan" became a model for similar anti-Catholic actions throughout Latin America.
(snip/)

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html



Banzer embracing a big Nixon fave, mass murderer/torturer/thief/dictator Augosto Pinochet

[Pavulon]

190. Snide refrence

I almost regret saying it.

I assumed the those steeped in the "revolution" would catch it and get pissed.

Bolivia executed communist leader Che Guevara in 1967, at the behest of the CIA. LBJ presidency. This was us policy.

You can see his rolex at Langley.

BTW for those who proffer the CIA chavez connection here is a hint. If the cia wished him dead he would be under an airstrip with no hands and a bullet in the back of his head.

I do not support violent overthrow of governments. However the US government will continue to act in its best interest.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

198. How many times do I have to explain this to you?

The CIA has fucked up before and guess what. It might even fuck up in the future. Really I'm serious they don't have special powers or anything. They might be pretty good at what they do but they won't always succeed.

Apparently you haven't heard there's a new sheriff in Bolivia. But hey maybe with some luck Colombia might do you that favor. Let's see, who else should get whacked? Oh yeah that fucker in Ecuador. Yeeehaaa get his ass too.

Please sir step away from the Tom Clancy book......

[Pavulon]

200. This is US

history 101. This not disputed information, not fiction. The US has a long standing foreign policy of intervention in LA.

They have money and resources. They have global reach and do have the ability to kill people. As do all intelligence agencies run by world powers.

Not saying they should.

But if they wanted him dead he would be dead.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

202. Let's put you on remedial US history first. then you can work your

way up to 101. Wow the CIA interferes in Latin America and have a lot of money. Damn, what else did you discover Sherlock? I have another one for you water is wet. Do you even have a point anymore? I mean other than the CIA is infalible and there's no way they can screw up.

[Pavulon]

205. You asked the question

I answered it. Jesus.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

206. I wanted to clarify what you meant specifically, not for little condescending remarks

about US history 101 (with which I'm very familiar). I didn't mean to upset you. Come on let's go on a mission together and whack some commies in red shirts. Hell pink shirts too fuck 'em all. :pals:

[Pavulon]

208. meh

they are fun and entertaining. Great sound bytes. I don't have to live there. If I had to live in N. Korea I would be more active. Vacationing with a rifle is over rated. It sucked when I was 22 and it would suck twice as much now.

It is hot and rains a lot down there. Cleaning rifles, blistered feet, and pulling guard is not fun any more.

Being dry and warm showers are

I think I would miss Starbucks the most..

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

209. Are you getting soft on us? That's too bad. I mean there are

so many commies trade unionists, children and peasants to kill, so many out of line priests and so many nuns to torture so much chaos to create and so much blowback to come back and bite us in the ass. Oh well. I think you'll miss out on all the fun.

[Pavulon]

210. Sorry

spent my time encouraging Europeans to stop killing each other, by threatening to kill them (that is a joke). Cold vs Hot tough choice. You can always put on more clothes and even shitty NG vehicles have heat. No ac..I made the right choice.

The no booze thing was scary at first, but that got fixed right quick.

I don't make the rules, see congress they pay for it all.

My days of early zulu bullshit are over.

[ProudDad]

233. Just like the great

job they've done killing Fidel Castro all these decades.

The CIA's covert operations is one of the most incompetent bunch of fuckups in the history of the world... They're the kings of unintended consequences...

[Pavulon]

191. What they are doing is fine

helping poor people is great. Setting up systems like northern European socialist states is fine.

Seizing assets, controlling media, and soap box rants on capitalisms and the US are pointless.

It is childish and will circle around when we are in office.

Brazil is a great example of a growing nation with socialist roots. It makes and sells airframes you have probably flown on..
http://www.embraer.com/english/content/home/

It is energy smart and industrializing. A diversified economy is required.

Prole is derived by Orwell from proletariat a term marx used to classify people..

I has a latin meaning of offspring but that is not the Orwellian reference.

If you have read it twice you may have missed its point. Read Animal Farm.

Talk to people who have lived through the system. There are posters on this board from Ukraine and can describe soviet style government.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

196. OK first of all.

Compensation has been given to industries which are being nationalized. Second of all the media is controlled by the opposition. If you're referring to the license which was not renewed for CANTV, participating in the coup guaranteed them that. It would happen in any country. If you go there all the time as you claim you know how much control the private sector has on the media. As i said earlier there is a lot of investment in other industries as well as social programs. Apparently they can walk and chew gum at the same time.

"Prole" is derived by Orwell from proletariat a term marx used to classify people..

I has a latin meaning of offspring but that is not the Orwellian reference.

If you have read it twice you may have missed its point. Read Animal Farm"

OK WTF are you even talking about here. You're always throwing around Animal Farm so I replied with some 1984 references. In the book 1984 things are run by the inner party and the bottom class are the "PROLES". What exactly is so hard to understand about that. I certainly don't need you to explain the word proletariat to me. Marx called it the proletariat, Orwell used the term "PROLES". What exactly is your argument here? I did read Animal Farm. So what? Apparently you also missed the point that Orwell was one of those dirty commies since he joined the P.O.U.M Militia to fight against Franco.

I personally could give a fuck about the Soviet system. I don't have to talk to anybody to know how fucked up it was. The Venezuelan model is just that. It's not the Soviet model or anybody else's. They are trying to come up with their own solutions to their problems. You're really cracking me up here dude. Keep trying though eventaully you might even make a point about something.

You avoided the question. What favor did Bolivia do for you?

[Pavulon]

199. Bolivia

summarily executed che in 1967 at the request of the CIA. We were in the business of killing communists at the time.

We can debate orwell's politics, but he was not a communist, and was an anti stalinist.

Guys ranting in red shirts is not northern european socialisim. Been there.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

201. Of course he was no communist. But in that little world

you live in he would be considered one (since he certainly was no imperialist). 1984 was a warning against totalitarian governments whether right or left. I think you might have missed that point.

Actually Felix Rodriguez from the CIA might have pulled the trigger himself (on Guevara). Who knows?

But wait, I have an idea. Why don't we send you down there on a special CIA mission? That way you can take care of all those scary guys in red shirts. See you can play bad ass secret agent man for real.

[Pavulon]

204. I like to visit

go to the beach in brazil and get drunk. I have done my time vacationing to europe for a year, driving trucks all over what used to be yugoslavia hoping not to run over an anti tank mine. Pretty fucking boring.

You are correct totalitarian governments (right or left) are the target of orwell's writings.

Point is that the us policy has been around for decades.

I enjoy watching bush's mirror image rant to much, it would be ashame if his own army killed him.

[ProudDad]

225. Other than for its pro-capitalist propaganda value

why do you persist in such transparently vacuous sound bites? Why do you keep up with your simplistic erection of straw men?

Do you want to discuss or just provoke?


helping poor people is great. Setting up systems like northern European socialist states is fine.

Thanks for your endorsement of Hugo Chavez' policies. First intelligent thing you've said in quite a while.



Seizing assets, controlling media, and soap box rants on capitalisms and the US are pointless.

Chavez has seized NO assets (your links please), denied a broadcast license RENEWAL to one of the coup plotters and supporters (the common term is traitor), rants on the capitalism (and the American Empire) that FUCKED up South and Central America for over a CENTURY. What's wrong with that?


It is childish and will circle around when we are in office.

Who's this guy "we"? You capitalists are already "in office" and firmly in control of the Legislative, Executive and Judiciary.


If you have read it twice you may have missed its point. Read Animal Farm.

I've read Animal Farm. I've also read 1984. What we see in the world today resembles 1984 MUCH more than any country resembles Animal Farm (except your favorite whipping boy -- North Korea. I'd agree that they're pretty fucked up. It AIN'T COMMUNISM though. Just 'cause you call shit a rose don't make it smell good.).

[ronnie624]

213. I REALLY enjoyed that. n/t

[gorbal]

217. You know....

The way people argue against socialism is one of the main factors driving me toward it.

[ProudDad]

226. Welcome, Sister!

Up the Revolution! :) :toast: :hi: