Russia starts supplies of Su-30 fighters to Venezuela

[Phrogman]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2006/11/mil-061130-rianovosti01.htm

30/11/2006 10:24 MOSCOW, November 30 (RIA Novosti) - Russia has shipped the first two Su-30MK2 multi-role fighters to Venezuela under a contract signed in July 2006, an aircraft manufacturing industry official said Thursday.

Russia signed $1-billion contracts on supplies of 24 Su-30MK2 Flanker fighters and 30 helicopters to Venezuela prior to this year's visit to Russia by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, triggering criticism from Washington, which regards the Venezuelan regime as a potential security threat in the region.

"The first Su-30MK2 fighters for the Venezuelan air force have been transported to Moscow by an An-124 Condor transport plane, and later they will be shipped to Venezuela," the official said, adding that two more fighters will be delivered to the Latin American country by the end of 2006.

Russian-made fighters will substitute American F-16 and French Mirage fighters currently deployed by the Venezuelan air force.

[IndianaGreen]

1. An excellent interceptor that will protect Venezuela from foreign invasion!

I hope the Russians take the time and the trouble to train Venezuelan pilots.

[Phrogman]

3. Watch how the US media will spin this story when the find out about it.

"Could those planes be used to attack Houston?"

[billbuckhead]

4. I'm sure they'll loan them some "honchos" to go along with the planes

I bet Putin keeps these assets close to the vest.

[Toots]

35. Who do you think might invade them?

Columbia? I realize there is already a small invasion by Columbian militants along the border but I have heard of no country in the world other than the USA that is at odds with Venezuela.. :shrug:

[Judi Lynn]

37. You've not heard of finding over 100 paramilitaries from Colombia, holed up near Caracas?

It was widely discussed. You might want to start keeping an eye out for stories of paramilitaries winding up in Venezuela.

They told Venezuelan authorities they had been hired by Cuban-Venezuelan Roberto Alonso, whose sister is an American movie star, Maria Conchita Alonso, and were staying on his ranch, next door to medida tycoon Gustavo Cisneros, one of the wealthiest men in Venezuela and _Bush father's fishing buddy, were armed, and had been hired for rough stuff in Venezuela.

Here's another article which may jog your memory:

Monday, December 19th, 2005
Colombian military implicated in plot against Chavez: Uribe
BOGOTA, Colombia (AFP) — Venezuelan former soldiers plotted against President Hugo Chavez’s government at a Colombian military building, Colombian President Alvaro Uribe said.

Uribe made the stunning disclosure Saturday at this Caribbean resort town where he is meeting with Chavez, and after analyzing documents furnished by the Venezuelan leader.

“The Venezuelan soldiers who are in Bogota went to a building to meet with members of the Colombian military.

President Chavez gave us these documents … we analyzed them and this morning I said to President Chavez: ‘I must tell you the truth: this is a building of Colombia’s public forces,’” he said.

Uribe said that intelligence efforts against the Venezuelan government are conducted in the building, and took full responsibility for the affair.

The two presidents met for six hours amid a climate of unusual goodwill Saturday to discuss the purported Bogota-based conspiracy against the Venezuelan president, which Chavez first disclosed to his Colombian counterpart during a meeting in Venezuela on November 24.

Seven Venezuelans involved in a 48-hour coup against Chavez in April 2002 have been linked to the new plot.

Businessman Pedro Carmona, leader of the failed military-civilian coup, enjoys political asylum in Colombia, where he is working as a university professor.

Uribe refused asylum to six Venezuelan soldiers involved in the coup but gave them permission to live in Colombia while they look for safe haven in another country.

The conservative Colombian leader said Saturday that he takes responsibility for the events.
(snip/...)

http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/colombian-military-implicated-in-plot-against-chavez-uribe

[rockymountaindem]

2. The real question is what kind of missles the Venezuelan AF has

If they only have second rate missles, these planes will do them little good. If, OTOH, they have top of the line missles, they're a potent system.

[StClone]

5. Top Russian plane

Depending on range, armament and extras. Looks like an F-15, more agile than the single engine F-16 and has the versatility of the F-18 sans canted vertical stabilizers. Can't blame them for getting the best they could after Bush blocked another weapons deal.

[NuttyFluffers]

10. didn't know that about those planes.

thanks for the info! :hi:

[htuttle]

16. Isn't the Sukhoi-30 the one that can do those crazy backflips?

I saw a video of a Russian plane doing this maneuver I've never seen a plane do before. I think it was an Su-30 variant.

[happyslug]

43. Most such clips are of the MIG-29

But the MIG-29 is more like the F-16, i.e. a Cheap alternative to the more expensive and better F-15. The MIG-29 is te same with the SU-30, a cheaper version.

Now while the MIG-29 is the most known for doing the "Cobra" any fighter with engines with more power than total weight can do the same (i.e. the F-15, F-16 and F-18 can also do the "Cobra"). American Test Pilots are just NOT permitted to do such acts with their planes (and while it looks good, it is a useless maneuver in real combat).

[Pavulon]

6. Your Oil dollars at work...

They are irrelevant against us imperialists but helpful in playing biggus dickus with their neighbors.

[IndianaGreen]

7. Venezuela is no threat to her neighbors, while the US is the biggest

threat the world has seen since the rise of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

I always fill my tank with CITGO, there is a station a mile from where I live. Although it costs a little more than other brands, I rather see my money go to CITGO than to Bush's pals at EXXON-Mobile.

[Pavulon]

8. You really

fall for the imperialism and red shirt routine. Money and power, very simple game. what ever the isim. I am sure Colombia sees everything the same way you do.

A few jets make no difference in the make believe war in Chavez's head..

It is a commodity it makes no difference where you buy it.

Yes the US is the new evil empire. I travel to many countries, there are many great places and but the US is far from the worse.

Guess what the evil empire is not coming to jail you for you opinion. Cant say the same on my visits to china, literally..

[TheLastMohican]

11. Nice example

Do you like being watched and listened all the times?

All your personal and financial information is in a database and someone has access to it, all your phone calls are wiretapped. Complete and full supervision of the "Big Brother" over you.

KGB looks like children playing in the schoolyard compared to this.

[Pavulon]

14. Not possible

Assuming that every call was spooled to media and indexed in some intelligent manner it would take an insane number of people to turn that data into intelligence.

If I am in a database so what. Point Lexis at yourself or any online research service. That is more concerning than the feds to me.

Yes all phones can be tapped. But there aren't enough ears to listen.

When people here get hauled off to jail for their BELIEFS (not actions) poke me with a stick. Until then, it is nothing new.

Read up on the NSA and their history with telegrams.

[Robbien]

18. Gitmo is filled with people hauled off for their beliefs

Not one of them is charged or even has a chance of seeing the inside of a court.

Their crime---being non-white non-christian.

[Pavulon]

19. Lesson

don't go to Afghanistan and carry an ak. That is an action not a belief. They were not sitting around posting about how much the us sucks. They were captured. If we return them to Afghanistan they will get the queen of hearts treatment.

If you start taking illegal action to push your belief system you will end up in jail too. That is the way of the world.

Most countries do not want these nice people back.

Good strawman.

[Robbien]

20. Just wild made up stories

You nor I know why the men, women and children are sitting in Gitmo.

The right wing puts out stories of captures in Afghanistan, but that is all it is. Just stories.

We do not know because the men, women and children in Gitmo do not have access to the outside world such as lawyers or family.

BushCo therefore has the license to just make shit up.

[Pavulon]

27. I bet they were just

playing tic tac toe and then the evil imperial storm troopers took them from their happy goat herds and locked them up in cuba.

The gitmo folks were non uniformed combatants and therefore subject to different rules under the conventions. The same rules the british used to execute germans in the same situation during ww2.

the constitution does not apply world wide.

[Flanker]

33. Your interpretation of the Geneva convention

is an incorrect right wing talking point, just thought you should know that.

[Pavulon]

38. Good thing we are all international law

experts. I am using the behavior of major signatories and their actions over the last 60 years to form opinions. So unless you have some relevant experience you opinion is worth no more than mine.

Quick to attack me as right wing, why do you think they are there? Were they just drinking tea and captured by the storm troopers?

We held serbians and other nationals in that conflict under the same rules. However that is not as political.

This is not politics, or it shouldn't be. These guys are dangerous, a large percentage will be jailed or killed by their host nations if they go back.

[Swede]

36. Maher Arar,a Canadian citizen was detained at JFK airport.

Sent to Syria,tortured,then released 11 months later.

http://www.ararcommission.ca/eng/26.htm

[Pavulon]

39. Not gitmo, apples oranges

syria is not the us, syria is responsible for the treatment of that man.

However that discussion warrants its own thread.

[happyslug]

45. The Rule of Law is "The King's Law Follow the King's Troops"

Thus for example when two people serving in the British Army Marry in a Catholic Church Italy during WWII without a License (Thus an invalid marriage under Italian law). The British Court ruled that while the Marriage was INVALID under Italian law, the King's law follow the King's Troops and thus it was a Valid English Common Law Marriage.

Under the same rationale the US Constitution follows the US Troops. This is reflected in Uniform Code of Military Justice (and its Predecessor the "Articles of War"). This is the holding in the recent case where the Supreme Court even accepted that the laws of the US applies to Guantanamo.

[nolabels]

13. I would like the country I live in to have a chance to be it's best..........

and not some also-ran. Supporting the the people and organizations that help support your point of view is what life is about sometimes. Insinuation that a person is an enemy of the state because they don't buy the kind of gasoline you would prefer just kind of seems un-american to me :shrug:

Would it make no difference if someone posted as a response to you that that majority around D.U. really don't support your point of view.


To have a different point of view doesn't need you to be vindictive but being expressive of why you have that point of view might help your cause

[Pavulon]

15. The OP

is a chavista. I have nothing against them personally. I respect their position.

Just pointing out a few realities. Chavez is nothing new in south america.

[gorbal]

22. Guess again

Many US backed regimes have jailed people for their opinion. The CIA has even abducted and tortured European citizens-

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/01/1456214&mode=thread&tid=25

http://voanews.com/english/2006-11-29-voa33.cfm

[ianwood]

9. go

chavez go

[newyawker99]

12. Hi ianwood!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[agincourt]

17. I'd like to say that Venuzuela is wasting money,

But with all the war-pig wimps still in power and in our media, the Sukhoi acquisition is actually a rational decision.

[paulk]

21. not really...

those planes wouldn't mean jackshit if the US ever did invade...

They might give pause to some of the other S. American countries... but they're really nothing more than the usual "mine is bigger than yours" dick waving that most countries with some money to burn engage in.

[IndianaGreen]

23. After our glorious war in Iraq, Americans have little stomach for more wars

The longer we stay in Iraq, the more lives are being saved in Latin America that would otherwise be lost to American bombs and American-trained death squads.

[paulk]

25. uh....... ok

I guess you were talking to me....


(scratches head)

[Pavulon]

29. Really?

the us could have had his head popped like a grape in the coup. Chavez knows he is alive because someone decided not to tell the people who booted him from office to put an ak round in his head.

The us is in latin america now. We never left. He is a nuisance at best, an market driver for oil and defense in reality. He sells higher oil prices and weapon systems to his neighbors. You think Colombia will buy new air superiority fighters? Sounds familiar, good old cold war weapon pimping.

Pissant communistas come and go, that is the history of the continent. They pop up and then someone overthrows them, they go, we stay.

Way of the world.

[IndianaGreen]

30. Latin Americans are not America's whores or slaves (and neither is anyone else)

and as long as you fail to realize that, you will continue to get your nicely scrubbed good Christian young men back home in bodybags.

[Pavulon]

40. Mine,

how nice..There are no body bags coming from latin america. Guess those dead guys have no connection to you?

Now we can discuss sandinistas and the us intervention in the killing of communists if you like. A different thread.

Again this is simple. Chavez is a strong man. He wishes to exert control over his neighbors. Those jets have no relevance in the pretend war against the us. They would blow up on the ground or their pilots would die from missiles fired from jets that their combat controllers never saw.

We are in the business of destroying russian equipment. Billions are spend on this goal. 30 jets flown by green pilots are no threat to any major nations airforce.

The only reason he is relevant is $63 oil. If it was $22 a bbl he would be irrelevant to us.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

32. People like you are why I lived in a dictatorship until I was 20.

Especially lovely is the feeling of disappointment you convey in your first paragraph. Yeah, if only they had balls like Pinochet, or if only he had given up like Goulart. Sigh.

[Pavulon]

41. People like me

took a year off of college to carry a rifle and drive around in the shattered parts of Yugoslavia.. Hoping not to run over an anti-tank mine. I have never met you. I have no influence on your life.

Read up on your history, not my opinion. We aren't discussing art.

Your emotional response has no bearing on the reality of the region or its history and the history of us interference.

[Flanker]

34. So many inaccuracies so little time

Chavez had the vast support of the grunts, they were the ones that were supposed to put that round but they clearly stated they would not obbey the order, this was an isolated island base so killing Chavez was not as easy.

[1932]

46. You think Chavez is a communist?

[yurbud]

26. nowadays it's all in the electronics and missiles unless rules of engagement force dogfights

Saddam had some decent planes before the first Gulf War--and he wisely flew them to Iran so they wouldn't be destroyed.

[Pavulon]

42. He had thousands of t-72s

an sophisticated air defense network, and trained infantry , which were destroyed. We did shoot one down with an a-10. true story, because the pilot was green and had not been trained to the level of his USAF counterpart.

Same reason the guys in t72's got smashed. They had the toys but did not read the manual.

[happyslug]

44. Line I heard of Saddam's T-72 during the First Gulf War was...

Line I heard of Saddam's T-72 during the First Gulf War was that these were ex-Polish T-72s and thus quite "used". The real problem appears to be that the 125mm gun had to be replaced after 200 rounds (The American M1 120mm gun is not much better, needing replacement after 2000 rounds). Thus the problem with Saddam's T-72 is the guns had been used (as such guns are often used in Training) but NOT replaced, thus had no accuracy. Thus the Problem with the T-72 was the lack of Spare Parts which was caused by the boycott against Iraq follows by Gorbachev and the Soviet union (Which would collapse just a few months later).

[Swede]

24. It's an impressive looking jet.

[Pavulon]

28. I am sure they

spend billions to train and equip their air force. The imaginary foe in the red shirted guys head does.

I am sure Colombia is worried. The USAF not so much.

[TheLastMohican]

47. I agree with you here

Not much use of these airplanes against a single US Air carrier strike group. But maybe Chaves thinks he can protect his oil resources against Colombia just in case they get nasty. Who knows?

[krispos42]

31. Well, those could have been more F-16s

If BushCo had played nice with others. But no, he has to see Venezuela as a threat because the guy in charge has fundamental disagreements with the idea of making the rich richer at the expense of the poor and middle.

Chavez is making government work in Venezuela, and it's driving the Red-Ink Republicans batshit crazy.

[MarkR1717]

48. What's mine is mine, and......

what's yours is mine too.